# What is gender?



## Aniko (Apr 27, 2017)

What is gender for *you* (not the neighbor)? And how or why do you relate to one?

If it's not the clothes, the roles or duties, the body, the way of thinking, interests, what is it? 

*No need to comment other posts telling them they are wrong, it's a personal question.


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## Xerolin (Apr 27, 2017)

gender is a unicorn farting rainbows

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hi i hate myself


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## Aniko (Apr 27, 2017)

Xerolin said:


> gender is a unicorn farting rainbows
> 
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> 
> hi i hate myself



I think a unicorn farting rainbows is an interesting definition.


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## Xerolin (Apr 27, 2017)

Aniko said:


> I think a unicorn farting rainbows is an interesting definition.



it can also be defined as what special snowflakes are obsessing over


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## toadsworthy (Apr 27, 2017)

as someone whose career revolves around genetics.... i mean you have your biological sex determined by the presence or absence of a y chromosome, and to a certain degree you need to acknowledge that

gender is a more loose and fluid definition referring to what a person feels and orients towards. I am all for people believing in what they want, being one certain orientation over another, and transitioning genders should they please, but your DNA can not be changed


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## LambdaDelta (Apr 27, 2017)

is this op some sort of cipher?


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## himeki (Apr 27, 2017)

lmao why are you asking this on a forum full of 8 year olds who still use triggered jokes


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## Aniko (Apr 27, 2017)

Xerolin said:


> it can also be defined as what special snowflakes are obsessing over



I didn't know snowflakes had an opinion on something, aren't all snowflakes special anyway? And what about you? Do you relate to one gender?

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himeki said:


> lmao why are you asking this on a forum full of 8 year olds who still use triggered jokes



Why not? Adults don't care anymore, they just follow the flow.

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toadsworthy said:


> as someone whose career revolves around genetics.... i mean you have your biological sex determined by the presence or absence of a y chromosome, and to a certain degree you need to acknowledge that
> 
> gender is a more loose and fluid definition referring to what a person feels and orients towards. I am all for people believing in what they want, being one certain orientation over another, and transitioning genders should they please, but your DNA can not be changed



Yes, but what about you?


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## ZetaFunction (Apr 27, 2017)

Gender is a complicated thing.  I see gender as the combination of one's genetics (as toad explained), their view of themselves, and how they feel about themselves.  Gender in my honest opinion has no relation with body/appearance, although some may view it different.  What about boys who like dolls?  Girls who like trucks?  It's more about the inside than the outside.



himeki said:


> lmao why are you asking this on a forum full of 8 year olds who still use triggered jokes



I'm triggered, no really, I'm deeply offended.  Let me guess, memeophobic?  ;;



Aniko said:


> I didn't know snowflakes had an opinion on something,



they don't, their thoughts/opinions are obviously invalid uwu


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## Aniko (Apr 27, 2017)

Lucanosa said:


> Gender is a complicated thing.  I see gender as the combination of one's genetics (as toad explained), their view of themselves, and how they feel about themselves.  Gender in my honest opinion has no relation with body/appearance, although some may view it different.  What about boys who like dolls?  Girls who like trucks?  It's more about the inside than the outside.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes yes yes I know that, but what about you? Maybe it's a question too personal or too complicated and nobody wants to answer.

The only snowflakes I know are melting in my backyard covered with snow fleas. 
Snow fleas are weird little creatures.


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## Xerolin (Apr 27, 2017)

Aniko said:


> The only snowflakes I know are melting in my backyard covered with snow fleas.
> Snow fleas are weird little creatures.



no u


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## Nuclear Bingo (Apr 27, 2017)

It is my belief that gender is determined by your biological sex.


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## Aniko (Apr 27, 2017)

Xerolin said:


> no u



Must be an American thing? Sorry I'm not American or English speaker so I don't get you.

So Xerolin I assume you have no gender or don't know what it it?


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## Xerolin (Apr 27, 2017)

Aniko said:


> Must be an American thing? Sorry I'm not American or English speaker so I don't get you.
> 
> So Xerolin I assume you have no gender or don't know what it it?



I'm just trolling alright
it's just a prank bro

I'm a girl ok I know what genders are


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## Aniko (Apr 27, 2017)

Nuclear Bingo said:


> It is my belief that gender is determined by your biological sex.



Finally an answer. Ok, So for you it's just that? (there is no hidden meaning, it's perfectly alright like that) So you define your gender according to biological sex and the rest doesn't matter right?

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Xerolin said:


> I'm just trolling alright
> it's just a prank bro
> 
> I'm a girl ok I know what genders are



Ok you are a female troll and what makes you think you are female?


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## Yaezakura (Apr 27, 2017)

Gender is a performance. A costume and set of actions that is part of what defines you to other people. It's a collection of those costumes and actions that society has decided to lump together and define as a certain thing.

It's never been binary, regardless of how the more narrow-minded among us like to think. We've long had words like "tomboy" for girls who aren't "girly enough". I'd argue that "tomboy" is simply a performance that falls somewhere between the performances of "boy" and "girl".

This is, of course, entirely divorced from biological sex, which is, in fact, determined by genetics, but is also far more complicated than "do you have a Y chromosome or not?". Biological sex is also not entirely binary, as to assume it is simply discounts any of the many people in the world with only one chromosome, or who have 3 or more. A geneticist might call these cases outliers, but they exist and are as human as the rest of us.


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## himeki (Apr 27, 2017)

at this point idk what my gender is and honestly i dont care. its not smth that bothers me


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## ZekkoXCX (Apr 27, 2017)

I guess its the same thing as biological sex?


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## Xerolin (Apr 27, 2017)

Aniko said:


> Finally an answer. Ok, So for you it's just that? (there is no hidden meaning, it's perfectly alright like that) So you define your gender according to biological sex and the rest doesn't matter right?
> 
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> 
> ...


Its
my biological sex and it's what I'm content with


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## Nuclear Bingo (Apr 27, 2017)

Aniko said:


> Finally an answer. Ok, So for you it's just that? (there is no hidden meaning, it's perfectly alright like that) So you define your gender according to biological sex and the rest doesn't matter right?



Yes indeed. Without getting too into it, the argument "gender is a social construct" is irrelevant to me. I don't see how something clearly being a construct makes it incorrect


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## PeeBraiin (Apr 27, 2017)

gender is a social construct


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## Aniko (Apr 27, 2017)

Yaezakura said:


> Gender is a performance. A costume and set of actions that is part of what defines you to other people. It's a collection of those costumes and actions that society has decided to lump together and define as a certain thing.
> 
> It's never been binary, regardless of how the more narrow-minded among us like to think. We've long had words like "tomboy" for girls who aren't "girly enough". I'd argue that "tomboy" is simply a performance that falls somewhere between the performances of "boy" and "girl".
> 
> This is, of course, entirely divorced from biological sex, which is, in fact, determined by genetics, but is also far more complicated than "do you have a Y chromosome or not?". Biological sex is also not entirely binary, as to assume it is simply discounts any of the many people in the world with only one chromosome, or who have 3 or more. A geneticist might call these cases outliers, but they exist and are as human as the rest of us.



And society changes, we might like the same things as a group of people and relate to them but what if the group changes later?

Genetically, biologically is not always clear either. Remember that runner in the Olympics?


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## forestyne (Apr 27, 2017)

Nobody knows anymore.

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o you mean to _us_ lo



idk to me it's, like, biological sex (male & female). that includes, for me, mental gender as well. like, how some people feel as if they're a man or a woman in the wrong body. obviously nobody needs to conform to society's standards, whatever you feel you are or want to be, but i think it should stay as simple as that. you can be whatever you want. unless you want to be a dragon or a dog or something.


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## Aniko (Apr 27, 2017)

forestyne said:


> Nobody knows anymore.



My thought exactly.


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## forestyne (Apr 27, 2017)

maybe i'll upset some people but i only come on here once a month anyway so who cares


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## Aniko (Apr 27, 2017)

Universaljellyfish said:


> gender is a social construct



That might change according to the country, culture and time. But even so, some people might relate to a group of people (share the same interests and all) but identify to another group.

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forestyne said:


> maybe i'll upset some people but i only come on here once a month anyway so who cares



I don't think anybody is upset so far.


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## B e t h a n y (Apr 27, 2017)

...


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## tumut (Apr 27, 2017)

I'm a cis male

Gender is technically a social construct. That was always the definition of gender its not rlly new.


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## himeki (Apr 27, 2017)

also i recomend u guys watch bill nye saves the world ep on the sexuality spectrum lol


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## nostalgibra (Apr 27, 2017)

Just because something is a social construct doesn't mean it can't be a very personal issue for some people. Marriage is a social construct too and it's very important to many people to have a wedding and be with someone officially under law. Social construct doesn't mean it's not real and it doesn't mean it's trivial. 

To answer the op, I'm cisgender and I'm very lucky for that (because so many struggle with gender dysphoria). Femininity is part of me so much that i wouldn't know who I would be without it.


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## Soda Fox (Apr 27, 2017)

I'm a biological female. As I get older I'm coming to terms with my feminine side and I wouldn't change a thing about me. I still (idk why my phone sometimes does certain weird autocorrect) would've preferred to have been born male and feel more comfomtable with my masculine side.


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## Aniko (Apr 27, 2017)

forestyne said:


> Nobody knows anymore.
> 
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> 
> ...



What I find interesting is that we can identify ourselves to a group or not without conforming to society standards or genetic. What makes us feel that way? 
Even genetically we can be xx male or xy female, we may not have all or defined body parts corresponding to our biological gender.

I'm giving myself an headache.

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B e t h a n y said:


> Biological sex should determine your gender. But in the case of Gender Idenity Disorder, where a women feels she should be a man and vice versa, people may choose to transition. People will automatically assume I'm transphobic or something because I've called it what it truly is. Which isn't true lmao, I don't have a problem whatsoever with trans people. I believe that gender is not a spectrum or a social construct.



Yes, but as we said earlier, it's not always possible to determine a gender biologically. And some people don't identify to a gender.


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## Soda Fox (Apr 27, 2017)

Aniko said:


> What I find interesting is that we can identify ourselves to a group or not without conforming to society standards or genetic. What makes us feel that way?
> Even genetically we can be xx male or xy female, we may not have all or defined body parts corresponding to our biological gender.
> 
> I'm giving myself an headache.



I'm a little confused too. It's not your fault. But I'll answer the best way I can guess. 

I think, even though we have these boxes or groups that we like to put everyone in to make things easier (it's easier to stereotype and make assumptions), each person is still unique and wants to be treated that way. It's a disconnect of making things easy and attempting to retain uniqueness.


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## Aniko (Apr 27, 2017)

tumut said:


> I'm a cis male
> 
> Gender is technically a social construct. That was always the definition of gender its not rlly new.



So you will identify to male gender whatever happens socially? Like if tomorrow all males wear mini-skirt, high heels you will still be a man right?


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## Tao (Apr 27, 2017)

I believe there are two genders, male and female, based on whether you have a ding-dong or a fuu-fuu...Or plan on getting a ding-dong or a fuu-fuu.


Everything else I hear on gender just seems based on current social trends/views, and I just don't see the validity in that.




Yaezakura said:


> It's never been binary, regardless of how the more narrow-minded among us like to think. We've long had words like "tomboy" for girls who aren't "girly enough". I'd argue that "tomboy" is simply a performance that falls somewhere between the performances of "boy" and "girl".



Or they just like pro wrestling and beer, two things that for all we know could be viewed as more feminine interests in the future.

I don't see the value in a 'system' that potentially changes based on what society currently agrees are masculine/feminine things.





forestyne said:


> i only come on here once a month anyway so who cares



So you're essentially BTF's period.


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## Aniko (Apr 27, 2017)

Soda Fox said:


> I'm a little confused too. It's not your fault. But I'll answer the best way I can guess.
> 
> I think, even though we have these boxes or groups that we like to put everyone in to make things easier (it's easier to stereotype and make assumptions), each person is still unique and wants to be treated that way. It's a disconnect of making things easy and attempting to retain uniqueness.



It's okay to be confused, I'm not really looking for answers anyway.

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Tao said:


> I believe there are two genders, male and female, based on whether you have a ding-dong or a fuu-fuu...Or plan on getting a ding-dong or a fuu-fuu.
> 
> 
> Everything else I hear on gender just seems based on current social trends/views, and I just don't see the validity in that.
> ...



What if you have a fuu-dong? It's getting complicated.


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## toadsworthy (Apr 27, 2017)

B e t h a n y said:


> Biological sex should determine your gender. But in the case of Gender Idenity Disorder, where a women feels she should be a man and vice versa, people may choose to transition. People will automatically assume I'm transphobic or something because I've called it what it truly is. Which isn't true lmao, I don't have a problem whatsoever with trans people. I believe that gender is not a spectrum or a social construct.



Biological sex is just that, once you study it (not saying you specifically should or need to) there is a greater understanding for the interactions between DNA and physical structures. I don't consider you transphobic, but what I disagree with is listing that as a gender identity "disorder." (you aren't doing that you just brought it to light) It shouldn't be considered wrong or negative to embrace a different gender identity than your biological sex aligned one (like it is stigmatized a lot in today). It has psychological circumstances that someone definitely should talk to a professional about before and during a medical process like transitioning, but to put it into a connotation as a "disorder" shows the lack of cultural sensitivity a lot of institutions have for people going through this.

and i am a male who sees himself as that for the main question of the OP. While I tend to mostly have women friends, I never would want to be one.... its not anything wrong with the idea of it or women themselves, it just wasn't  a question for me


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## Bowie (Apr 27, 2017)

Gender is what you think you are, sex is what you physically are.

I find it hard to believe people find this concept difficult to understand, yet here we are.


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## Aniko (Apr 27, 2017)

In the end nothing fully determine a gender, it's more plenty of factors/things that make you relate to one or not.


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## Yaezakura (Apr 27, 2017)

Tao said:


> I don't see the value in a 'system' that potentially changes based on what society currently agrees are masculine/feminine things.



Systems always change, unless they're innate properties of the universe.

That said, a large part of the problem is the fact that the system exists in the first place. People assume "male" and "female" are the only options, and anything that doesn't easily fit into either one, and therefore requires thought instead of stereotypes, is "wrong" for simply existing.

And the example I gave, where we have words like "tomboy" for girls who aren't "traditionally girly" tells us just how long we've all been aware that people who don't easily fit into those two arbitrary boxes are here, yet there's so much yelling over "changing gender" these days, as if people who aren't strictly male or female are a new thing.

Do I think tomboys are less girls than girly girls? Not at all. Maybe a different _kind_ of girl, but every bit a girl all the same, so long as that's the box they feel comfortable in. But there are people who feel more masculine on one day, and more feminine the next, regardless of their biology. There are people who don't feel like either one. There are people who feel trapped in the wrong box while a large segment of society tells them they have no choice but to stay there.

Gender's just not as simple as a whole lot of people like to think it is. Which is, of course, the problem, because asking someone to have to actually think about things is just about the worst thing you can do to someone. Or so the world leads me to believe with the way people react to actually having to think about things.


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## Aniko (Apr 27, 2017)

Bowie said:


> Gender is what you think you are, sex is what you physically are.
> 
> I find it hard to believe people find this concept difficult to understand, yet here we are.



Ok but what makes you think that you belong to one rather than another? 
Nothing?
Maybe it's just a feeling.


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## B e t h a n y (Apr 27, 2017)

toadsworthy said:


> Biological sex is just that, once you study it (not saying you specifically should or need to) there is a greater understanding for the interactions between DNA and physical structures. I don't consider you transphobic, but what I disagree with is listing that as a gender identity "disorder." (you aren't doing that you just brought it to light) It shouldn't be considered wrong or negative to embrace a different gender identity than your biological sex aligned one (like it is stigmatized a lot in today). It has psychological circumstances that someone definitely should talk to a professional about before and during a medical process like transitioning, but to put it into a connotation as a "disorder" shows the lack of cultural sensitivity a lot of institutions have for people going through this.
> 
> and i am a male who sees himself as that for the main question of the OP. While I tend to mostly have women friends, I never would want to be one.... its not anything wrong with the idea of it or women themselves, it just wasn't  a question for me



I don't think I was portraying it in a negative light but I'm sorry if any one took it as that. Obviously it has psychological circumstances and I can't imagine what's it like to experience that. I didn't go into a lot of detail, but I know it isn't just a snap of a finger transition, there are stages to go through. Even though we have opposing views, I appreciate your response.


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## Ghost Soda (Apr 27, 2017)

Gender isn't about body parts or how you were born. Ultimately, I think it's different for everyone. The only person that knows someone's gender is themselves, and it certainly isn't anyone's business telling other people how they should or shouldn't choose to identify.


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## toadsworthy (Apr 27, 2017)

B e t h a n y said:


> I don't think I was portraying it in a negative light but I'm sorry if any one took it as that. Obviously it has psychological circumstances and I can't imagine what's it like to experience that. I didn't go into a lot of detail, but I know it isn't just a snap of a finger transition, there are stages to go through. Even though we have opposing views, I appreciate your response.



damnit, I tried really hard to say that you weren't, I just quoted you because you brought up the term gender identity disorder


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## Aniko (Apr 27, 2017)

*Posters were asked to speak for themselves, it's alright if someone relate to a gender because of their genitals or gender role. It's a personal question.*

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Like someone said earlier someone who identifies as male could prefer hanging out with females and share their activities without wanting of changing sex.

Same for a female, she could dress, talk, act in a "masculine" way, have nothing of what society sees as feminine and yet still identifies as female.


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## PizzaTotinoBoy (Apr 27, 2017)

Sex is what you're born as, physically, Gender is what of those sexes you feel most comfortable with, what you feel you physically are, at least that's how it can be seen _today._.(SEX PLAYS A VERY BIG, IF NOT NEARLY ENTIRE PART IN GENDER MIND YOU) Now, see, I don't think that there are 72 genders or however many on the "Gender Master List" there are. Something such as being "fiery and outbursting" isn't a gender. It's a personality trait, and I feel that a lot of people mix up, or use their personalities as "gender", which isn't correct(and really gives people who do have gender dysphoria, etc a bad name at times). Sure some people can feel like they're in between male and female, or neither at all, which is perfectly fine, whatever I don't really care. I do believe though, that _mainly_, there are two genders, male and female. Traits associating with them do exist, even if one can have the trait of the opposite, that's perfectly fine. Sure, you can identify as in between or neither but that's still based upon the male/female spectrum. But of course, having these traits doesn't _mean_ you're one gender over another, if you have feminine traits as a guy but are still comfortable being a guy, then there's no problem with that, it doesn't mean you're trans or androgynous or whatever, it's whatever you're comfortable with. Note, when I say that I mean for everyone. I don't agree that there's 72 or whatever genders, I don't think using your personality to make your "gender" is necessarily right, nor do I think doing it for attention is right either(That's just insensitive to people who have actually had gender dysphoria.) I learned to go with what I'm most comfortable with when my ex not only thought but tried to make me into a woman. And of course, I nearly lied to myself. I nearly lied to everyone and nearly potentially became someone I knew I wasn't. I then realized that, all of this gender stuff being forced on many, and people being guilted for being cis, or male, or heterosexual, it was all a load of bull. I felt that way before but that's when I realized that it's just as bad as hating anyone else. Hating a man for being a man, who's comfortable being a man is absolutely awful, just as hating a woman for being female is wrong. 

Sure, my opinions aren't agreeable with everyone. No, I don't think there's 72 genders, but I don't care what you do as long as you're not shaming others for not doing what you do, or you doing this stuff for attention, etc. I'm scared that people are lying to themselves for attention a lot of the time. Sure some people may have real, legit feelings but I'm still scared that some people are going to lie to themselves or be forced/manipulated into being something they don't really want to be. I'm scared that some of this is going to go too far, I'm scared that...Well, I'm just scared that sex and gender in general are going to be thrown out the window. I'm scared people are going to be shamed for being cis men or cis women.(They already are, especially men from what I've seen)

TLDR Gender, or at least what I see as the modern-day definition of it is a mental thing, there's mainly two but you can be others, and people won't agree with my opinions but oh well.
Mainly, I just want everyone to be happy with who they are and with eachother. It's not possible to be perfectly like this, but...People just need to know what's right and wrong sometimes, and what they're completely doing is exactly what they're fighting against.

Be what you want, but don't lie to yourself. Know what is logical, know what doesn't make sense, or what doesn't fit the criteria of what you're trying to be and use that to figure out who you _really_ are, because I have a feeling a lot of people don't. Maybe that's just me, I've never felt any feelings of wanting to be out of the "norm" in gender, so I wouldn't know, this is all coming from that point of view so please excuse me if my opinions are "wrong" to some. They're just opinions.

And that's all I have to say about it. I know I rambled on, and my opinions aren't even that well organized but I hope something can be fished out of it.


EDIT-Sorry for my mess of a post, I don't even know if my thoughts came onto words there. It's a headache of a topic and it's really hard to talk about sometimes.


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## scotch (Apr 27, 2017)

gender is literally what is between ur legs and what kind of hormones you have and if people have trouble accepting it then wtf


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## Aniko (Apr 27, 2017)

Ash Q. Scrumfleton said:


> Sex is what you're born as, physically, Gender is what of those sexes you feel most comfortable with, what you feel you physically are.(SEX PLAYS A VERY BIG, IF NOT NEARLY ENTIRE PART IN GENDER MIND YOU) Now, see, I don't think that there are 72 genders or however many on the "Gender Master List" there are. Something such as being "fiery and outbursting" isn't a gender. It's a personality trait, and I feel that a lot of people mix up, or use their personalities as "gender", which isn't correct(and really gives people who do have gender dysphoria, etc a bad name at times). Sure some people can feel like they're in between male and female, or neither at all, which is perfectly fine, whatever I don't really care. I do believe though, that _mainly_, there are two genders, male and female. Traits associating with them do exist, even if one can have the trait of the opposite, that's perfectly fine. Sure, you can identify as in between or neither but that's still based upon the male/female spectrum. But of course, having these traits doesn't _mean_ you're one gender over another, if you have feminine traits as a guy but are still comfortable being a guy, then there's no problem with that, it doesn't mean you're trans or androgynous or whatever, it's whatever you're comfortable with. Note, when I say that I mean for everyone. I don't agree that there's 72 or whatever genders, I don't think using your personality to make your "gender" is necessarily right, nor do I think doing it for attention is right either(That's just insensitive to people who have actually had gender dysphoria.) I learned to go with what I'm most comfortable with when my ex not only thought but tried to make me into a woman. And of course, I nearly lied to myself. I nearly lied to everyone and nearly potentially became someone I knew I wasn't. I then realized that, all of this gender stuff being forced on many, and people being guilted for being cis, or male, or heterosexual, it was all a load of bull. I felt that way before but that's when I realized that it's just as bad as hating anyone else. Hating a man for being a man, who's comfortable being a man is absolutely awful, just as hating a woman for being female is wrong.
> 
> Sure, my opinions aren't agreeable with everyone. No, I don't think there's 72 genders, but I don't care what you do as long as you're not shaming others for not doing what you do, or you doing this stuff for attention, etc. I'm scared that people are lying to themselves for attention a lot of the time. Sure some people may have real, legit feelings but I'm still scared that some people are going to lie to themselves or be forced/manipulated into being something they don't really want to be. I'm scared that some of this is going to go too far, I'm scared that...Well, I'm just scared that sex and gender in general are going to be thrown out the window. I'm scared people are going to be shamed for being cis men or cis women.(They already are, especially men from what I've seen)
> 
> ...



So we can say it's a state of mind that is not necessary related to societal norms. It's an headache right.
100 years ago, we had a conception of gender that was different from now and it will continue to change.
Maybe we won't need genders anymore in the future, I don't know. Correct me if I'm wrong, a cisgender is someone who is fine with their sex assigned at birth, it doesn't mean they follow gender roles, it doesn't mean that they represent themselves in a feminine way or masculine way.


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## UglyMonsterFace (Apr 27, 2017)

The traditional definition of _gender_ is the same as _sex_ - it is based off your genitals, so male or female. Nowadays, _gender_ is now a word used to define how a person feels or identifies themselves as, rather than the scientific traditional meaning. I would still go with the traditional definition, but honestly, it's just words. If you want to use the word gender in the more modern way, that's fine. All that matters is that people have the freedom to express themselves in whatever way they want, as long as it isn't harmful to anybody or to themselves. But scientifically speaking, there is only male/female and changing the definition of the word cannot change science.


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## PizzaTotinoBoy (Apr 27, 2017)

Aniko said:


> So we can say it's a state of mind that is not necessary related to societal norms. It's an headache right.
> 100 years ago, we had a conception of gender that was different from now and it will continue to change.
> Maybe we won't need genders anymore in the future, I don't know. Correct me if I'm wrong, a cisgender is someone who is fine with their sex assigned at birth, it doesn't mean they follow gender roles, it doesn't mean that they represent themselves in a feminine way or masculine way.



Yeah, basically. I mean, physicality also has something to do with it but it's mainly the mindset of how you feel about that physicality, in which most people are completely fine with what they were born with, while other's are not necessarily. I do think it's going to change, I do think that a lot of things are certain..."trends" I guess you could say that will change in the future only to be replaced with other such trends. I mean, I'm not saying everyone's gender issues are a phase, they could be(Like in my case for a very short time but you could argue it was my ex merely influencing me) but I do think a lot of modern-day things like the arguably ridiculous "Gender Master List" are going to become a thing of the past someday. How it'll change? no clue. I won't really care though as long as people don't try shoving beliefs down my throat, or anyone else's. That's a major problem I have with a lot of people honestly.


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## Ghost Soda (Apr 27, 2017)

Arize said:


> The traditional definition of _gender_ is the same as _sex_ - it is based off your genitals, so male or female. Nowadays, _gender_ is now a word used to define how a person feels or identifies themselves as, rather than the scientific traditional meaning. I would still go with the traditional definition, but honestly, it's just words. If you want to use the word gender in the more modern way, that's fine. All that matters is that people have the freedom to express themselves in whatever way they want, as long as it isn't harmful to anybody or to themselves. But scientifically speaking, there is only male/female and changing the definition of the word cannot change science.



I love how people keep arguing "there r only two sexes!!!11", like all intersex people just disappeared or what?


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## UglyMonsterFace (Apr 27, 2017)

Ghost Soda said:


> I love how people keep arguing "there r only two sexes!!!11", like all intersex people just disappeared or what?



Lol, why are you always so passive aggressive and sarcastic, rather than actually adding to the conversation or being respectful? :/

EDIT: Of course I'm aware of certain conditions, such as hermaphrodites, etc. However, I always just thought of that as having both male and female traits, rather than a third gender..


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## PizzaTotinoBoy (Apr 27, 2017)

Arize said:


> The traditional definition of _gender_ is the same as _sex_ - it is based off your genitals, so male or female. Nowadays, _gender_ is now a word used to define how a person feels or identifies themselves as, rather than the scientific traditional meaning. I would still go with the traditional definition, but honestly, it's just words. If you want to use the word gender in the more modern way, that's fine. All that matters is that people have the freedom to express themselves in whatever way they want, as long as it isn't harmful to anybody or to themselves. But scientifically speaking, there is only male/female and changing the definition of the word cannot change science.



Yep, I use Gender and Sex interchangeably myself too. I have to agree with pretty much everything you say here, science _cannot_ be changed, like you said, and sure, I'm fine with everyone expressing themselves as long as nobody's hurt.



> EDIT: Of course I'm aware of certain conditions, such as hermaphrodites, etc. However, I always just thought of that as having both male and female traits, rather than a third gender..



I was about to say that myself. 

I always considered those conditions to still be on the male/female spectrum myself and more of a "mix" of the two, but again I wouldn't know, I haven't experienced/known anyone like that before, so I may be wrong there, but that's what I always saw it as myself.


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## Aniko (Apr 27, 2017)

scotch said:


> gender is literally what is between ur legs and what kind of hormones you have and if people have trouble accepting it then wtf



What one has between their legs, assuming they have legs, and hormones/chromosomes  might not be well defined. If you lose what is between your legs or your hormones change, is your mind will change as well? not sure about that. Same for gender role, if society suddenly decide to change gender roles and fashion, will you follow the new trends?


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## Ghost Soda (Apr 27, 2017)

Arize said:


> Lol, why are you always so passive aggressive and sarcastic, rather than actually adding to the conversation or being respectful? :/
> 
> EDIT: Of course I'm aware of certain conditions, such as hermaphrodites, etc. However, I always just thought of that as having both male and female traits, rather than a third gender..



Sorry bout that, I don't think you deserve the ol' saltness train as things are.

And anyways, if they're a mix of "female" and "male" traits, than what exactly decided which binary gender they are then?


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## PizzaTotinoBoy (Apr 27, 2017)

Ghost Soda said:


> Sorry bout that, I don't think you deserve the ol' saltness train as things are.
> 
> And anyways, if they're a mix of "female" and "male" traits, than what exactly decided which binary gender they are then?




From what I can tell, a lot of the time, usually there are a lot of genetic, hormonal, etc. tests done as the child develops. That and, probably what the child is most comfortable with, depending on the family it grows up with I'm sure. There's so many factors I'm sure it's done in many different ways, with or without surgeries, etc.

A "mix" of male and female traits is only to describe a lot of the physical parts of it, not necessarily hormonal or genetic. I'm sure there's lots of people who are more male or female oriented in those aspects, or even completely in the middle. It likely varies from person to person so there can't be a definitive answer when you think about it.


But maybe I'm somehow wrong, I wouldn't know, so please excuse me if I am on something.


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## Aniko (Apr 27, 2017)

Ash Q. Scrumfleton said:


> Yeah, basically. I mean, physicality also has something to do with it but it's mainly the mindset of how you feel about that physicality, in which most people are completely fine with what they were born with, while other's are not necessarily. I do think it's going to change, I do think that a lot of things are certain..."trends" I guess you could say that will change in the future only to be replaced with other such trends. I mean, I'm not saying everyone's gender issues are a phase, they could be(Like in my case for a very short time but you could argue it was my ex merely influencing me) but I do think a lot of modern-day things like the arguably ridiculous "Gender Master List" are going to become a thing of the past someday. How it'll change? no clue. I won't really care though as long as people don't try shoving beliefs down my throat, or anyone else's. That's a major problem I have with a lot of people honestly.



Makes me think, there are people that are not fine with the gender assigned at birth, but also don't have genital dysphoria, I mean they are fine with their body as long as they can express the right gender, or maybe they just need to change a few things. And there is the opposite too, having genital dysphoria without gender dysphoria.  I'm not sure about trends though, even if I know what you mean, like for anything else, a person may be confused about a lot of things including gender and orientation at some time and change their mind later, or maybe they just don't feel at ease in the society.


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## PizzaTotinoBoy (Apr 27, 2017)

Aniko said:


> Makes me think, there are people that are not fine with the gender assigned at birth, but also don't have genital dysphoria, I mean they are fine with their body as long as they can express the right gender, or maybe they just need to change a few things. And there is the opposite too, having genital dysphoria without gender dysphoria.  I'm not sure about trends though, even if I know what you mean, like for anything else, a person may be confused about a lot of things including gender and orientation at some time and change their mind later, or maybe they just don't feel at ease in the society.



Oh yeah, definitely, I agree with you there. I know I was confused for some time, I know a lot of people who were but I also do think a lot of people jump on this sort of thing, like any other talked-about topic just for attention, and even to fit in at times if they want to feel like a part of something. I think that can go both ways.

I can see your first point too. I mean, there's a lot of people who transition and don't plan on doing certain things, only changing a few things to feel comfortable with themselves. That definitely exists.


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## UglyMonsterFace (Apr 27, 2017)

Ghost Soda said:


> Sorry bout that, I don't think you deserve the ol' saltness train as things are.
> 
> And anyways, if they're a mix of "female" and "male" traits, than what exactly decided which binary gender they are then?



The only thing I meant by female or male traits are what is defined scientifically as male or female, rather than any social construct. So uterus, vagina, ovaries are female and penis and testicles are male. If there are the rare cases where traits from both of these genders are present in one person, then they just simply have traits for both and they can identify with the more dominant traits they have. But say a person was born with a penis, but on the outside they look entirely feminine, they are still biologically male because appearance isn't what makes a gender, and neither are emotions or outfits or hobbies, etc. Now this doesn't mean that a born male cannot identify as female, but what you identify as does not negate science, but science should also not define who you are as a person. So if you want to live life as a female, male, non-binary, whatever, it is perfectly fine, regardless of science, because you are being true to who you are emotionally and psychologically  I don't know if that's what you were asking? This is just my opinion and if you can respectfully convey your opinions as well, I will respect yours. Remember, not everyone will agree and we should be able to have an open conversation rather than a judgmental one ^_^


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## Bowie (Apr 27, 2017)

Aniko said:


> Ok but what makes you think that you belong to one rather than another?
> Nothing?
> Maybe it's just a feeling.



See, this question doesn't make sense to me.

If gender is what you feel you are and sex is what you physically are, the reason I feel that I am a boy is because I am happy with the gender my sex comes with by "default", if you will.

If I considered myself a girl, but still had a disco stick, then I'd say that's precisely what makes me belong to one rather than the other. If I did the whole transition, then I'd be a girl in every way.


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## Aniko (Apr 27, 2017)

Ash Q. Scrumfleton said:


> Oh yeah, definitely, I agree with you there. I know I was confused for some time, I know a lot of people who were but I also do think a lot of people jump on this sort of thing, like any other talked-about topic just for attention, and even to fit in at times if they want to feel like a part of something. I think that can go both ways.
> 
> I can see your first point too. I mean, there's a lot of people who transition and don't plan on doing certain things, only changing a few things to feel comfortable with themselves. That definitely exists.



Yeah, like for everything else, being part of something, imitate someone, wanting to feel different, I see that often with young people and it's often part of other trends as well but since I know nothing about those people and how they really feel I just let it pass. It's sure that some people might be really annoying if they are using it just to get attention, but if they really just want attention they will find a way or another to be annoying.


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## vel (Apr 27, 2017)

gender: what you identify with sex: the sex you were born with, the amount of x and y chromosomes in your cells.

i'm straight, and i relate to it, because i like guys? i just wanted to point out the difference, and yes i do advocate for the rights of people in the lgbtqia community!


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## Aniko (Apr 27, 2017)

Bowie said:


> See, this question doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> If gender is what you feel you are and sex is what you physically are, the reason I feel that I am a boy is because I am happy with the gender my sex comes with by "default", if you will.
> 
> If I considered myself a girl, but still had a disco stick, then I'd say that's precisely what makes me belong to one rather than the other. If I did the whole transition, then I'd be a girl in every way.



Disco stick lol (didn't know that one)

Ok, to me its not that clear because I don't really identify to a gender, if you are asking me what gender I am I will most likely say female because it's what written on my records, apparently there is no biological ambiguity. If you are asking me if I'm fine with it, well not really because girls come with really annoying parts and nothing as fun as a disco stick..but anyway, I can live with them..so far..but you can be sure if the Blue Fairy appeared in front of me and granted my wishes they would gone in a split of second. Now for the identity part, I don't especially feel anything about it, when I was 12 and someone called me girl, I was going right for the jugular, now I just attack if someone say I should think, do, act a certain way because of my gender. I let people call me like they want, I don't care about it, I don't feel offended either way...but madam is still hard to swallow. I feel really uncomfortable in female clothes, but I could say I feel uncomfortable in anything that is not jeans and t-shirt, of course I don't have long nails, long hair, make-up or jewels either, but it means nothing. If I'm with a female group I don't get anything they say, but I'm not good with people anyway, if I'm with a male group I feel like at home but I grew up mainly with guys, so...
I certainly do girly stuff sometimes, like ....I don't know...playing to ACNL? I certainly do manly stuff...but I don't like killing bugs, I prefer playing with them.  So to resume: sex at birth=female, not happy with it but can live with it if nobody pisses me off, secretly dream to get rid of some parts but don't feel like growing a beard either, I guess I would be fine not having a sex at all. Do I feel like a woman, not really. Do I fell like a man, not really. Do I know how they feel anyway?

See to me it's confusing but it's not important. From what I see here people just go with their genitals, fine with it, not fine with it. If you have no genital you go with how you feel, but what makes you feel that way if it's not genital or hormones?

- - - Post Merge - - -



vel said:


> gender: what you identify with sex: the sex you were born with, the amount of x and y chromosomes in your cells.
> 
> i'm straight, and i relate to it, because i like guys? i just wanted to point out the difference, and yes i do advocate for the rights of people in the lgbtqia community!




It gets complicated with xx male, xy female, it's not an absolute rule.

And gender and orientation is two different things. 
We could go that way too, saying what we like in our favorite gender but I feel the slippery slope...So....Er...maybe not.


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## radical6 (Apr 28, 2017)

Gender isn't real, sex is the only thing that exists.


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## onionpudding (Apr 28, 2017)

Gender is a fancy type of air bender hehehe

I hate myself for this lmao


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## N e s s (Apr 28, 2017)

I like to think of gender like this:

MALES ---------------------Anything in between----------------------------------FEMALES

Males and females are on the ends of the line, but gender is anything in between.


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## watercolorwish (Apr 28, 2017)

there are two sexes and three genders imo (male, female, other). 'other' also meaning neither i guess. just gonna put this out there, why do people even care about gender. i honestly just say go with the gender you were assigned at birth and treat yourself however you want and just don't care about what your gender says you need to like. you don't need gender to define who you are?? gender is getting less and less constructed by the day anyways. and i'm not saying with genders that it was a good thing to make things feminine or masculine, or sexes feminine or masculine, i'm just saying wouldn't it be better if there were two genders for the two sexes? and i know not everyone is trying to be 'different' but it really sounds like that when you say you identify as xxx. i can understand 'neither' or just 'other' but don't try to make up something. what i'm trying to say i guess is that gender should not have things associated with it. it should just be something between your legs. honestly its not the biggest problem out there. of course this is just my salty opinion on all this. these two kids at my school are constantly bringing up gender and whining about it on facebook so sometimes i wish i could just tape their mouths shut and tell them my opinion. but i am terrible at arguments so

also it annoys the **** out of me when people get offended by using he or she pronouns on them without telling me what they identify as. of course if they really identify as none of the three i mentioned i'll gladly use the pronouns they ask for, but i'm going to use the socially constructed gender based on what you look like unless you tell me. theres no goddamn way i could know you identify as something else. its easy to do this on the internet tho i just remember to call everyone they since you never know


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## Aniko (Apr 28, 2017)

poyonomatopoeia said:


> there are two sexes and three genders imo (male, female, other). 'other' also meaning neither i guess. just gonna put this out there, why do people even care about gender. i honestly just say go with the gender you were assigned at birth and treat yourself however you want and just don't care about what your gender says you need to like. you don't need gender to define who you are?? gender is getting less and less constructed by the day anyways. and i'm not saying with genders that it was a good thing to make things feminine or masculine, or sexes feminine or masculine, i'm just saying wouldn't it be better if there were two genders for the two sexes? and i know not everyone is trying to be 'different' but it really sounds like that when you say you identify as xxx. i can understand 'neither' or just 'other' but don't try to make up something. what i'm trying to say i guess is that gender should not have things associated with it. it should just be something between your legs. honestly its not the biggest problem out there. of course this is just my salty opinion on all this. these two kids at my school are constantly bringing up gender and whining about it on facebook so sometimes i wish i could just tape their mouths shut and tell them my opinion. but i am terrible at arguments so
> 
> also it annoys the **** out of me when people get offended by using he or she pronouns on them without telling me what they identify as. of course if they really identify as none of the three i mentioned i'll gladly use the pronouns they ask for, but i'm going to use the socially constructed gender based on what you look like unless you tell me. theres no goddamn way i could know you identify as something else. its easy to do this on the internet tho i just remember to call everyone they since you never know



I agree on some parts although I would not know where to put everybody we can't identify as either female or male like Caster Semenya. So I would think there are people with more male characteristics, people with more female characteristics and everybody in between, or else. The gender role has little importance to me, I would just all dress people with the same outfit, same hairdo, doing the same task, all the same  but some would complain...but even if we were all the same some would still not be confortable with their bodies...there is nothing we can do about that.


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## Twisterheart (Apr 28, 2017)

For me, gender is the same as what sex you are.


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## Mink777 (Apr 28, 2017)

These threads are blowing my mind, man.

Gender is the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).

Straight out of google dictionary.


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## visibleghost (Apr 28, 2017)

gender exists bc we created them and it is an important part of many ppls identities. but gender isnt a Fact or w/e it's all a social construct lol


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## LambdaDelta (Apr 28, 2017)

so anyone want to update me on the transphobes list of this thread?


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## UglyMonsterFace (Apr 28, 2017)

LambdaDelta said:


> so anyone want to update me on the transphobes list of this thread?



I didn't read through the whole thread but tbh I didn't see any transphobic comments? Unless your definition of transphobic is a bit different..


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## amanda1983 (Apr 28, 2017)

Yaezakura said:


> Systems always change, unless they're innate properties of the universe.
> 
> That said, a large part of the problem is the fact that the system exists in the first place. People assume "male" and "female" are the only options, and anything that doesn't easily fit into either one, and therefore requires thought instead of stereotypes, is "wrong" for simply existing.
> 
> ...



^ this.

If you've never had to consider the reality of a loved one - or even acquaintance - feeling trapped inside a body that feels biologically wrong and ALIEN to them at an intrinsic level, then I can tell you now, it is heartbreaking. The trans people I know have not been lying or exaggerating for attention and drama. They are not "mentally ill" from a clinical perspective. They need medical help, which usually includes therapy and other counselling services in addition to the hormonal and surgical treatments - if they choose to use them. Someone who is born that way is in need of love and support, not shame and ridicule. In 2017, we should, collectively, be better than that.

From the WHO : 



> Gender refers to the socially constructed characteristics of women and men ? such as norms, roles and relationships of and between groups of women and men. It varies from society to society and can be changed. While most people are born either male or female, they are taught appropriate norms and behaviours ? including how they should interact with others of the same or opposite sex within households, communities and work places. When individuals or groups do not ?fit? established gender norms they often face stigma, discriminatory practices or social exclusion ? all of which adversely affect health. It is important to be sensitive to different identities that do not necessarily fit into binary male or female sex categories.



I am a cis-gendered female. I don't subscribe to gender stereotypes, especially those that limit or harm individuals (of any gender), but I identify as a woman as that is what I am, both in mentality and biologically.


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## Nightmares (Apr 28, 2017)

Uhh I'd say gender is the genetics and whatever you...just feel like you are lmao


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## Aniko (Apr 28, 2017)

Alien51 said:


> These threads are blowing my mind, man.
> 
> Gender is the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).
> 
> Straight out of google dictionary.



If you remove all social and cultural _references_, would gender still exist? 
Example: after a few generations of humans living on Mars with the same clothes, same job, and babies in artificial wombs, would people still think they have a gender?

I think the majority here define their own gender with the fact they can relate to their own sex or not...BUT I would think it's not all.


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## LambdaDelta (Apr 28, 2017)

if you remove society and culture, humanity (as well as just sentient life in general) wouldn't exist period. so I don't know what point you were trying to make by basically invalidating yourself


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## Kuroh (Apr 28, 2017)

Gender is a social construct, whereas sex is only biological.

Speaking factually only, the definition of gender, according to the Oxford dictionary (source), includes: "used with reference to *social* and *cultural differences* rather than biological ones". This is the first result when searching it up on Google since Oxford dictionary is a reliable source.

A definition from a different site describes it as: "One's innermost concept of self as male, female, a blend of both or neither ? how individuals perceive themselves and what they call themselves. One's gender identity can be the same or different from their sex assigned at birth". (source)

Aside from pretty much every website stating that sex and gender are different, even in university classes it is taught this way- or at least, the numerous ones I have taken taught it as so.


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## KaydeeKrunk (Apr 28, 2017)

I am not familiar with this concept of gender. My species has only a single gender, known as nuchacho.


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## Aniko (Apr 28, 2017)

LambdaDelta said:


> if you remove society and culture, humanity (as well as just sentient life in general) wouldn't exist period. so I don't know what point you were trying to make by basically invalidating yourself



Ok let say instead that society or culture don't see gender anymore, there is no gender role, no gendered clothes, hair or anything like that. There are only people with different body. Would people still identifying to a gender? Probably?

My point is trying to see what defines gender for an individual. 

For some people there are sex and gender, sex being genitals and chromosomes and gender being a state of mind. 
So for some, there are two sexes and two or three genders. But people are asked on their own personal experience, why they see themselves belonging to a gender, so obviously if they belong to the majority, they will tend to define their gender according to their sex, if they relate to it or not.
But it's not that easy because there are also people that don't have a defined sex, they don't have the chromosomes related to their genitals or the same genital as everybody, there are people who have genital dysphoria and no gender dysphoria, or gender dysphoria and no genetial dysphoria and so on,  so we can't really say that gender is related to sex for everybody.

For some people is definitely gender roles, but if society was switching gender roles tomorrow, a bunch wouldn't follow.
For some it might be the representation of masculinity or femininity but again it's something that might change tomorrow.
Society change, fashion change all the time, so you can't really defined gender just that way either.

So why/how do you relate to a gender? (If you relate to one) There is no bad answer, There is no right answer.


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## visibleghost (Apr 28, 2017)

Arize said:


> I didn't read through the whole thread but tbh I didn't see any transphobic comments? Unless your definition of transphobic is a bit different..



i mean, saying that being trans is a mental illness or that there is no such thing as being trans (including that there are only 2 genders and that gender is the same as sex) is transphobic lol


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## radical6 (Apr 28, 2017)

What does it mean to be a woman? It's a state of mind? What is it? How are you supposed to feel?

I don't feel like "most" women. I like science and exploration. I don't like dolls. Am I not a woman? I don't wear heels or makeup. I'm assertive and speak my mind. Does this mean I'm not a woman? 

The only thing I have in common with every single woman on this planet is our organs and body structure. 

Being a woman is not a state of mind, because that implies all women feel like x. What are they even feeling like? What do they think? What do they believe makes them a "woman" if its not their biological sex?

Can I call myself black on the inside? I feel like it. It's a state of mind afterall right?

If you can call race a social construct, then so is gender. Why is this a double standard?

Sex dysphoria is different and its people wanting to transition to a different sex and have the opposite sex's genitals. Fine. Whatever. I'm not talking about them. They don't say they're a boy because they wear jeans. I have no problem with them as long as they have dysphoria.

But the people who don't tranistion and push this idea that gender is basically gender roles? Or that gender is a feeling?

What is the point in having this useless concept of gender besides pronouns? This is just tumblr nonsense. 

Gender should not exist, we should not tell people born with penises they must be aggressive and strong. We should not tell people born with vaginas they are weak and stupid. We should not say they must dress this way.

*We should let people freely dress and act as they want without saying they must change their sex OR conform to their sex.*

Not saying people in this thread are saying that, but what I just summed up is a very popular movement in college and tumblr. lmfao.

- - - Post Merge - - -

Oh, and I very much had a trans phase I'm sure people on here remember. If you don't have dysphoria, it's basically a teen's emo phase.


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## visibleghost (Apr 28, 2017)

Aniko said:


> Ok let say instead that society or culture don't see gender anymore, there is no gender role, no gendered clothes, hair or anything like that. There are only people with different body. Would people still identifying to a gender? Probably?
> 
> My point is trying to see what defines gender for an individual.
> 
> ...



obviously if we removed  gender it wouldnt exist ..? but i think that people would come up with other ways to put us into groups based on whatever. but yeah even if they would come up with groups based on sex or w/e it wouldnt be the same thing as gender in our society today because there are a bunch of things that made the concept of gender into what we have 2day.

i would say that gender is like culture and religion in how it is created by societies and then shaped by them. people need to feel like a group and divide us into groups for a sense of identity or a feeling of being One In Th Geoup and i think that that's why things like gender, culture, religion and other groups are formed.
im not disagreeing w u btw im just . idk .

- - - Post Merge - - -



kallie said:


> What does it mean to be a woman? It's a state of mind? What is it? How are you supposed to feel?
> 
> I don't feel like "most" women. I like science and exploration. I don't like dolls. Am I not a woman? I don't wear heels or makeup. I'm assertive and speak my mind. Does this mean I'm not a woman?
> 
> ...



lol Alright 
gender isnt "women are this and men are that". i think in a perfect society gender would not exist (im not Anti Gender™ but i think it would have been better if the concept had never existed) and there would be no need to identify as trans, cis, man, woman or w/e but that's not how it is. 
your gender isnt only sbout yourself and how you feel, act and what you do, it is also about how other people percieve you, how youre expected to act and all that stuff. if people didnt force gender on everyone i don't think there would  e a problem with using words like woman to describe your body parts but with gender "woman" means more than "lol i have boobs"

it's great that you feel All Fine w your gender but not everyone feels the same way and it's inconsiderate to dismiss other people's experiences because yours isn't the same.


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## UglyMonsterFace (Apr 28, 2017)

visibleghost said:


> i mean, saying that being trans is a mental illness or that there is no such thing as being trans (including that there are only 2 genders and that gender is the same as sex) is transphobic lol



I didn't see any comments saying that trans people do not exist but I guess I didn't read far back enough? I don't think it's transphobic to say there are only two genders though. Someone can be born as one sex/gender but identify as another and that's perfectly fine, but it doesn't create another gender.


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## Primarina (Apr 28, 2017)

Gender is a synonym for sex, and not, as some would have us believe, a separate thing from sex and a mere "social construct".


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## visibleghost (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> Gender is a synonym for sex, and not as some would have us believe, a separate thing from sex and a mere "social construct".



does gender only mean "i have these body parts" to you or do you think gender has other aspects to it like names, how youre supposed to act and dress, how youre treated etc.?
bc if not then youre wrong

- - - Post Merge - - -



Arize said:


> I didn't see any comments saying that trans people do not exist but I guess I didn't read far back enough? I don't think it's transphobic to say there are only two genders though. Someone can be born as one sex/gender but identify as another and that's perfectly fine, but it doesn't create another gender.



people said that sex is the same as gender


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## Yaezakura (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> Gender is a synonym for sex, and not as some would have us believe, a separate thing from sex and a mere "social construct".



Really? That's weird... let's see here... type "Define Gender" into google and we get...





			
				Google said:
			
		

> gen?der
> ˈjendər
> noun
> noun: gender; plural noun: genders
> 1. the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).



And it's a similar situation in literally every dictionary I can find...


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## visibleghost (Apr 28, 2017)

Yaezakura said:


> Really? That's weird... let's see here... type "Define Gender" into google and we get...
> 
> And it's a similar situation in literally every dictionary I can find...



yh theyre using the wrong words it's like if i said that im sitting on a sofa when im sitting on a chair and i kept being like No Sofas And Chairs Are Literally The Same Thing I Know This Brcause I Cant Ever Be Wrong


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## Primarina (Apr 28, 2017)

visibleghost said:


> does gender only mean "i have these body parts" to you



In a certain sense, yes. However, I'm not by any means denying that there are social norms and expectations for the two sexes in every human culture, because obviously there are (division of labor, expected manner of dress/adornment, etc.), but even this I believe is not merely arbitrary and does function within certain biological influences, though certain aspects of these things are also obviously arbitrary/culture-bound (as for example the fact that in the West as recently as the early 20th century pink was "for boys" and blue was "for girls").

- - - Post Merge - - -



Yaezakura said:


> Really? That's weird... let's see here... type "Define Gender" into google and we get...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Look at a dictionary from a few decades ago and you wouldn't have this problem.

- - - Post Merge - - -



visibleghost said:


> yh theyre using the wrong words it's like if i said that im sitting on a sofa when im sitting on a chair and i kept being like No Sofas And Chairs Are Literally The Same Thing I Know This Brcause I Cant Ever Be Wrong



Except that sofa and chair were never synonyms, and gender and sex always were synonyms in every dictionary until people started re-defining gender.


----------



## Yaezakura (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> Look at a dictionary from a few decades ago and you wouldn't have this problem.



And why would I consult an out-dated dictionary? Dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive. I could also look at an English dictionary from 1,000 years ago, but the language has changed so much that pretty much the entire thing would be utter nonsense to me.


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## Primarina (Apr 28, 2017)

Oh, look sex is _still_ a synonym for gender. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender


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## Aniko (Apr 28, 2017)

kallie said:


> What does it mean to be a woman? It's a state of mind? What is it? How are you supposed to feel?
> 
> I don't feel like "most" women. I like science and exploration. I don't like dolls. Am I not a woman? I don't wear heels or makeup. I'm assertive and speak my mind. Does this mean I'm not a woman?
> 
> ...



No not really, it's not something that concern only teen emo.  People don't always need to do a transition to feel like the right gender, just being seen by the society has one is enough for them. It certainly not the same for everybody and you can't tell people what they are supposed to feel. Anyway the question is about you and not the neighbor. As you say, women are not all the same, don't think about the same things either etc.etc  but what if they  are born without vagina or any lady parts? They can't tell themselves women? Of course they can, because they may feel more like a lady than a dude, even if biologically we can't say what sex they are. And why they do feel that way? It might because of plenty of reasons like any... and of course they can also relate to a gender that is not female or male.

If you had a trans phase, you must have had your reasons then.


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## Primarina (Apr 28, 2017)

Yaezakura said:


> And why would I consult an out-dated dictionary? Dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive. I could also look at an English dictionary from 1,000 years ago, but the language has changed so much that pretty much the entire thing would be utter nonsense to me.



As I said above, this one isn't outdated and it agrees with me. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender


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## Yaezakura (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> Oh, look sex is _still_ a synonym for gender. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender



You would be correct. Some dictionaries still list them as synonyms, because a dwindling number of people _use them_ as synonyms, while a growing segment of the population no longer does. And you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who actually deals with gender issues on a professional level who uses the two as synonyms anymore.


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## Aniko (Apr 28, 2017)

visibleghost said:


> obviously if we removed  gender it wouldnt exist ..? but i think that people would come up with other ways to put us into groups based on whatever. but yeah even if they would come up with groups based on sex or w/e it wouldnt be the same thing as gender in our society today because there are a bunch of things that made the concept of gender into what we have 2day.
> 
> i would say that gender is like culture and religion in how it is created by societies and then shaped by them. people need to feel like a group and divide us into groups for a sense of identity or a feeling of being One In Th Geoup and i think that that's why things like gender, culture, religion and other groups are formed.
> im not disagreeing w u btw im just . idk .



That's okay, you have the right to disagree, we are discussing...
I would think that gender would still exist but being express a different way. 100 years ago, a woman wearing pants, voting, cussing, playing hockey, working as a mechanical for instance would have shocked more than one but today I would think most of people find that normal.


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## Primarina (Apr 28, 2017)

Yaezakura said:


> And you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who actually deals with gender issues on a professional level who uses the two as synonyms anymore.



Yes, because academe has been taken over by postmodernists who have redefined gender to mean something no average person means when they say the word gender. Just because they've redefined it doesn't make it so. 2+2 will never equal 5 even if the whole world believes it. Biology is a stubborn thing.


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## Aniko (Apr 28, 2017)

Let the dictionary out of this people. Why do you personally feel (or not) like a certain gender. If you feel that way because of your body parts, fine. If you feel that way because your body parts plus gender role and representation these days, fine.


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## Yaezakura (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> Yes, because academe has been taken over by postmodernists who have redefined gender to mean something no average person means when they say the word gender. Just because they've redefined it doesn't make it so. 2+2 will never equal 5 even if the whole world believes it. Biology is a stubborn thing.



And there you're just flat out wrong. Biology is an incredibly flexible, often messy thing. Do you think XX and XY are what every person on the planet is? Because you'd be very, very wrong. Some people only have one sex chromosome. Some have three or more.

Also, I wasn't aware that "no average person" included so very many people. I certainly don't mean biological sex when I say "gender". Neither does... basically anyone I know younger than about 60.


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## Dogemon (Apr 28, 2017)

scotch said:


> gender is literally what is between ur legs and what kind of hormones you have and if people have trouble accepting it then wtf



You are thinking of sex, when it comes to things between your legs. You are also thinking of chromosomes not hormones, I think? Most doctors both modern and even some from long ago agree though that sex is the physical genitals of a being, while gender is what the mind perceives one's self. I should also note that if you did mean hormones, I have near male levels of testosterone in my body due to PCOS and Hashimoto's, I still do very much feel I am a female.

Idk if you guys care but, research has also started to show that there many people who are truly trans show brain waves far more similar to their believed gender rather than those of their biological sex. I find this interesting because often we can be confused 'how' someone knows they are trans and it can be difficult to put into words.

On the argument of "why cant I think I am another race then???", race seldom has any effect on your brain waves, as seen back when white scientists tried to say that African American brains were not as efficient/good as their own. Race does play into your phenotype and genotype, but more in terms of just body structure, melanin levels, and susceptibility to certain conditions/diseases, rather than much to do with your nervous system.


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## Yaezakura (Apr 28, 2017)

Aniko said:


> Let the dictionary out of this people. Why do you personally feel (or not) like a certain gender. If you feel that way because of your body parts, fine. If you feel that way because your body parts plus gender role and representation these days, fine.



My apologies. It just... irks me when people insist their own view of things is some undeniable truth. _Especially_ when they are factually, demonstrably wrong. I have a hard time not challenging such people.


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## radical6 (Apr 28, 2017)

Dogemon said:


> You are thinking of sex, when it comes to things between your legs. You are also thinking of chromosomes not hormones, I think? Most doctors both modern and even some from long ago agree though that sex is the physical genitals of a being, while gender is what the mind perceives one's self. I should also note that if you did mean hormones, I have near male levels of testosterone in my body due to PCOS and Hashimoto's, I still do very much feel I am a female.
> 
> Idk if you guys care but, research has also started to show that there many people who are truly trans show brain waves far more similar to their believed gender rather than those of their biological sex. I find this interesting because often we can be confused 'how' someone knows they are trans and it can be difficult to put into words.
> 
> On the argument of "why cant I think I am another race then???", race seldom has any effect on your brain waves, as seen back when white scientists tried to say that African American brains were not as efficient/good as their own. Race does play into your phenotype and genotype, but more in terms of just body structure, melanin levels, and susceptibility to certain conditions/diseases, rather than much to do with your nervous system.



Do I have a male brain then? I'm cold and not very empathetic to most people. Does this mean I'm actually a man?

*The idea of a female and male brain is the exact reason people think females are stupider and more emotional.*

It's not real anyway.. Here's another source. 

I'm not going to have people justify the same misogynist thinking that made people shut me out of STEM. I was misled into thinking I had to cut off my breasts and stitch my vagina shut because I wasn't really like a woman, I was like a man because I was smarter than most. 

This idea that gender is real is incredibly harmful. Sex is real. Gender is just bull****. Gender is a social construct meant to put the two sexes (intersex people are still assigned either female or male, do not use them as pawns in your argument) into boxes. 

I'm tired of this idea that since I am a woman, my brain is inferior, because how I was born. There is no brain sex. How are you saying the idea that black people are stupider because of their brains is wrong, but the idea that females are stupider because of their brains is okay?

Trans people are fine because they have a distressing disorder (sex dysphoria is a disorder) and want different genitals. But they are nowhere near common as people think they are and it's all a fad hip and popular with SJW youth. 

Many trans people agree with me that sex is what you are, and that they simply want to transition to the different sex. Not gender. Because gender is a stupid concept.

There is no requirement to being a woman to them, anyone can call themselves a woman, even the 40 yr old man who invaded my local female bathroom to masturbate in front of teenage girls. No I'm not saying ALL trans people are predators, but when you have NO definitions of gender this is what happens. Men will use it to their advantage and rape women.


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## Dogemon (Apr 28, 2017)

kallie said:


> Do I have a male brain then? I'm cold and not very empathetic to most people. Does this mean I'm actually a man?
> 
> *The idea of a female and male brain is the exact reason people think females are stupider and more emotional.*
> 
> ...



First off, please calm your aggression. Secondly, where in the hell did I state EITHER brain was inferior??? If you didn't know, I am in STEM, possibly because neither my sex or gender have influence over my individual interests. If you want to disagree with me, fine. I think gender is real however and that sex is different. Intelligence and personality have nothing to do with what I was stating or referring to either. I've done my research and studied for enough years to be very comfortable with my statements I wrote, but am glad to further look into things. 

This conversation had nothing to do with rape and your history of vilifying men and transwomen when it is not even the issue just because of your own bad experiences is not something I am going to humor you in continuing.


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## visibleghost (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> In a certain sense, yes. However, I'm not by any means denying that there are social norms and expectations for the two sexes in every human culture, because obviously there are (division of labor, expected manner of dress/adornment, etc.), but even this I believe is not merely arbitrary and does function within certain biological influences, though certain aspects of these things are also obviously arbitrary/culture-bound (as for example the fact that in the West as recently as the early 20th century pink was "for boys" and blue was "for girls").
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



yes bc ppl have been McFreaking Wrong 4 a long time. gender and sex arent the same thing just like how chaurs abd sofas arent the same

also how are gender roles biological ...


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## radical6 (Apr 28, 2017)

Dogemon said:


> First off, please calm your aggression. Secondly, where in the hell did I state EITHER brain was inferior??? If you didn't know, I am in STEM, possibly because neither my sex or gender have influence over my individual interests. If you want to disagree with me, fine. I think gender is real however and that sex is different. Intelligence and personality have nothing to do with what I was stating or referring to either. I've done my research and studied for enough years to be very comfortable with my statements I wrote, but am glad to further look into things.
> 
> This conversation had nothing to do with rape and your history of vilifying men and transwomen when it is not even the issue just because of your own bad experiences is not something I am going to humor you in continuing.



I was referring to the general idea that females are more emotional, more empathetic, and men are more logical and mean. 

That's literally what the concept of brain sex comes from. What is brain sex? What is the difference between a "male" and "female" brain then? So they have different brain waves that mean nothing?

No one can give a true, concrete definition of gender without relying on "brain sex" or using gender roles, or using some vague definition that it's a "feeling". Gender is either not real or its a social construct like race. 

I brought that up because you people have NO definition of gender. This means ANYONE can call themselves trans. Thats NOT what trans means.

I'm sticking up for real trans people being shut out of their own community by overzealous SJWs who are excusing their own rapists in their community who use being trans as a disguise. 

No one in this thread has a definition of gender that makes sense. All this beliefs that gender is some "feeling" and that anyone can be x gender and that anyone can be trans is exactly why we have rapists in the trans community. 

I've been in that forsaken community and watched all my dysphoric friends get shut out, they get denied hormones and HRT because their doctors don't think they're actually trans. Why? Because they get 20 patients who tell them their gender is faegender, that their gender is stargender.

Doctors don't take any trans person seriously anymore, unless you live in a very liberal trigger happy area.

Trans people want to transition to a different sex, not to a different gender. Everyone in this thread saying all genders are valid are ridiculous. Faegender and spacegender or whatever 23 yr old college students identify are aren't. real.


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## PizzaTotinoBoy (Apr 28, 2017)

kallie said:


> I was referring to the general idea that females are more emotional, more empathetic, and men are more logical and mean.
> 
> That's literally what the concept of brain sex comes from. What is brain sex? What is the difference between a "male" and "female" brain then? So they have different brain waves that mean nothing?
> 
> ...



^^^This, this and more of this.  

I'm glad someone sees that that sort of 72 made up genders is a big load of garbage. and you're very right, it does shut out actual trans people. It's not the right way to go if you want to be "accepted" by a community, or you want attention. In fact it's quite insensitive if you use some made up gender for such. I know trans people who agree with this, who have been invalidated because of all these stupid kids using their personality as some way to make them look more special than they are. 

And no, for some people who are going to claim so,  I'm not being bigoted. I'm merely calling out people who invalidate people's real feelings for attention, to jump on some bandwagon, etc. Maybe someone's confused about who they are, sure I get that. I'm sure one day those people will one day know when they fit in. But the college idiots who want to control the rules, get attention and at the same time give REAL trans people a bad name? That's low. And those people do exist. Ive seen it before and some of the trans people I so happen to know don't appreciate it either.


EDIT-Regarding your first point, that is also quite true. Either can have whoever's traits but people do have to realize there's things called hormones which do affect ones thoughts and actions. People automatically refer to this as sexism but it can't be helped if it's hormones. Everyone's going to have certain traits. Men can have feminine traits, women can be masculine but, which is fine, but hormones still do exist which will give people certain traits. And that's perfectly fine despite what some say. People shouldn't bash others for what traits they have in terms of physical sex.


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## amanda1983 (Apr 28, 2017)

Biological sex as gender is something most societies currently teach and reinforce through gender norms, gender roles, and assigning colours to particular genders - especially to children - at every turn. I have worked with children from all parts of the gender spectrum. The idea that a 3 year who looks biologically male but says - consistently, persistently, and insistently that they are, in fact, a girl is "too young to know what they're saying" (which is a common thing to hear from someone well-intentioned but lacking in any relevant background) is a fundamental misunderstanding of how very young children develop. 

Neurotypical children by age 3 have already learned to categorise and discriminate (the literal meaning, not the damaging one) using multiple characteristics simultaneously (all baby animals that live on land, all baby animals that live in the water, etc) as well as subjective criteria (grouping their favourite toys in sub categories - figures, soft toys, cars, etc - seperately to their next favourite and then least favourite ones). They are well and truly capable of understanding that sometimes a "man" can look different to other men, but still be a man - or that that "man" might not wish to be called a man at all, and that whatever they choose to be called, is okay.

One of the reasons children are able to be so accepting is that they have not yet formed the - often rigid and implacable - patterns of thought that adults have. If a child is never exposed to different types of gender expression then it is going to be a challenge for that child as an adult to understand the reality that some people just don't fit the gender binary. My heart aches for those children who grow up in environments where they have no frame of reference to understand what is "wrong" with them, let alone aware that there are others like them - whatever their issue actually is - and help and support available to them, if they only knew where to ask to get it.

Importantly, there is a distinct difference between children who are experiencing body dysphoria, and children who express their identity in ways that conform stereotypically with their gender. They are not the same thing at all :



> For these children, though, parental permissiveness around gender expression didn?t address the underlying issue: their gender identity.
> 
> ?They don?t feel that that represents who they are,? Olson explained. ?They aren?t just a boy who likes dresses?they feel that they are, in fact, a girl.?


http://www.thedailybeast.com/conten...kids-are-being-rushed-into-transitioning.html

From a recent study of fully socially-transistioned 3-5 year olds, cis-gendered children, and a third group of cis-gender siblings of transgender and gender nonconforming children :



> Ultimately, the researchers found that the transgender children were remarkably similar to their cisgender peers, discovering that ?young transgender children were just as likely as [cisgender] children to (a) show preferences for peers, toys, and clothing culturally associated with their expressed gender, (b) dress in a stereotypically gendered outfit, (c) endorse flexibility in gender stereotypes, and (d) say they are more similar to children of their gender than to children of the other gender.?



and



> One key difference, however, was that transgender children ?were less likely to see other people?s gender as stable over time? compared to the control group. But the fact that siblings of transgender and gender nonconforming children were also less likely to see gender as unchangeable suggests to the authors that ?this effect may be the result of knowledge that gender is not stable over time for some people.?



http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...and-cisgender-kids-aren-t-that-different.html

Now, gender preferences in toys do not appear in children from birth :



> Gender preferences for toys only show up after children learn about their gender. Babies show no preference, Brown says.
> 
> In fact, when it comes to the actual toys kids like to play with, there is more variability within a gender than there is between genders, says Sweet. For example, she points out that studies of young children have shown that boys are no more likely than girls to enjoy playing with a toy with wheels, something traditionally given to boys.


https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...ls-boys-childhood-development-gender-research

I really like the quote the article ends on : 


> ?All toys are gender neutral,? says Brown. ?What is not neutral is the way toys are marketed.?



- if it's a toy for children, it is for all children of the appropriate age and developmental stage and above. If it's *not* a toy for children - meaning it's an "adult" product - then it's not for children. There's no biological or other reason to decide certain toys are for girls or boys.

But for young children growing up in this chaotic, marketing-driven, hyper-capitalistic world, they're doing the best they can to survive and grow and make sense of themselves and the world around them. The lucky ones are doing so in families that love and support them, whether they fit traditionally in the gender binary or not.

Our modern era didn't create trans people, gender fluidity, bisexuality, or anything else along those lines. These are things that have existed for as long as people have been recognisably human. They will exist as long as humanity remains recognisably human. In the past, we just lacked the science necessary to understand these complex concepts.


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## AnimalCrossingPerson (Apr 28, 2017)

Your gender is what you look like.
Got a big bushy beard and manly muscles? Male.
Got big jugs and long hair? Female.
Some weird mixture? Ask.

Yeah, I'm stereotyping. Whatever.


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## visibleghost (Apr 28, 2017)

AnimalCrossingPerson said:


> Your gender is what you look like.
> Got a big bushy beard and manly muscles? Male.
> Got big jugs and long hair? Female.
> Some weird mixture? Ask.
> ...



so if someone who previously was Male shaves their beard, grow out their hair and put on a dress they're a woman? Neato


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## Trundle (Apr 28, 2017)

Kallie has hit the nail on the head like usual, gender is a social construct. I'm going to try show back her up with a simple example.

Man: Strong, muscular, athletic, controlling, wears pants, likes CARS!
Woman: Stay at home mom, bossy, love shopping, wears dresses.

These are two sets of stereotypes, one set for men and one set for women. Now let's look at some people:

Alfred: Stay at home dad, loves shopping, loves cars, clingy and needs affection
Ashley: Bread winner of the family, athletic, loves cars, works in a blue collar job

Alfred is sexually a man. Ashley is sexually a woman. While they both take on stereotypes from each set, it does not change who they are: a person. You can be a male sexually and fulfill no stereotypes of a male gender. Does that mean you are now female gender? 
It's incredibly stupid to assume that perpetuating stereotypes for the sake of perpetuating stereotypes is an advancing or progressive idea in our culture. I'm also going to be mildly edgy and say that if you feel the need to change your gender or identify as something else, you are probably doing it because you just want to fit in, validate your feelings online vs a society that thinks identifying as something else is stupid, or want attention. Or maybe you just don't know what you believe and are following the gender identity crisis because that's what you see online. Regardless, it does NOT MATTER what gender you identify as. Just be confident in your own being as a human.

- - - Post Merge - - -

also I just read the thread and I'm glad to see a lot of people think gender is just a social construct


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## Nightmares (Apr 28, 2017)

AnimalCrossingPerson said:


> Your gender is what you look like.
> Got a big bushy beard and manly muscles? Male.
> Got big jugs and long hair? Female.
> Some weird mixture? Ask.
> ...



I don't really agree with you but I do dislike it when like... a woman (genetically) says he's a man, but gets offended when you assume they're a girl... even though they haven't done anything to change their appearance to look more like that gender. 
I mean, there's nothing wrong with identifying as a male and looking like a girl, but don't get super pissed off when people think you're a female :///
That was kinda random but oh well


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## visibleghost (Apr 28, 2017)

Apple2013 said:


> Kallie has hit the nail on the head like usual, gender is a social construct. I'm going to try show back her up with a simple example.
> 
> Man: Strong, muscular, athletic, controlling, wears pants, likes CARS!
> Woman: Stay at home mom, bossy, love shopping, wears dresses.
> ...



i agree with a lot of the things you're saying But i think that just because gender shouldn't matter or make any difference doesn't mean that that's how it is. there are still big differences between how people of different genders are supposed to act. being a woman isn't only about wearing skirts, it's about how you're treated and seen and all that stuff ..idk


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## Bowie (Apr 28, 2017)

It's fine to fill the stereotypes of a gender, but if you're not you shouldn't be told by anybody that your belief in your identity is unimportant or somehow less valid than anybody else's.

It has no impact on your life whether someone identifies as a chair, honestly. Just leave them to it. They wouldn't want to make friends with anyone who was going to persecute them for it anyway.


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## carp (Apr 28, 2017)

ur vibe


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## AnimalCrossingPerson (Apr 28, 2017)

visibleghost said:


> so if someone who previously was Male shaves their beard, grow out their hair and put on a dress they're a woman? Neato



Not technically, but in this day and age, yeah.


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## seliph (Apr 28, 2017)

Amazing how many people suddenly become scientists and biologists when the topic of gender is brought up.

Science has shown that not only is gender a huge spectrum, but it is also indeed a construct and that we are all born blank slates. The whole "male brain" and "female brain" things we've all heard of are complete myths. The brain itself is basically unisex with the only difference being that the number of neutrons vary in a small part of the brain called the hypothalamus. However that being said, the amount of neutrons in the brains of trans men and cis men are of equal average, as are that of trans women and cis women. Even your brain doesn't care what trans people are "born as".

As for chromosomes, that's another thing that most people have completely wrong. The whole "xx = female and xy = male" thing? Yeah. No.

People who are AFAB (assigned female at birth) can have XO, XXX, XXXX, and XY chromosomes and people who are AMAB (assigned male at birth) can have XXYY, XYY, and XX chromosomes.
Not only that, but the hormonal patterns for people with XX chromosomes can completely mirror XY chromosomes and vice versa, an example being androgen insensitivity syndrome. So basically people can have xy chromosomes, testicles, a vulva, a vagina all at the same time with all of them being _completely naturally grown._ Also for what it's worth, the amount of intersex people like this mirrors the amount of people with red hair!

More on chromosomes, our chromosomes don't even determine our sexual characteristics. That is almost all on our hormones. Our chromosomes have a _very_ tiny part of it.

With all that being said, there is no way to know other peoples' karyotype (unless they have distinct physical differentiations, which not all of them do), and I'm willing to bet everyone on this site doesn't even know their own. I sure as hell don't. You probably won't know what's in peoples' pants either unless you're in a sexual relationship with them so just stop with the transphobia and respect what people say they are and what they want to be called. It's not that hard. It takes so much more energy to be an ass about it.

Also stop using biology and science to back up your transphobia. They aren't on your side.


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## Aniko (Apr 28, 2017)

*Okay people it's all interesting but the question was about you personally. Why do you think you belong to a gender if you belong to one. There are no bad answers, you may change your mind. you may not know. It's doesn't matter.

*
Also if the reason why you think you belong to a gender disappear, will your opinion change as well?

Examples: 

your doctor tell you your chromosomes doesn't match your genitals, you are in fact genetically the opposite gender.

You lose your genitals in an accident or due to a disease.

Fashion change and all the clothes you liked are now destined to another gender.

All gender roles switch.


I would think, it would not change anything for most of people, they would still think they belong to the same gender.



> No one in this thread has a definition of gender that makes sense.



I like that quote... Exactly, what makes sense to you doesn't necessary make sense for the neighbor. It's how it is...There is no absolute way to tell what gender a person is. And I'm bringing back the case of Caster Semenya.


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## Trundle (Apr 28, 2017)

visibleghost said:


> i agree with a lot of the things you're saying But i think that just because gender shouldn't matter or make any difference doesn't mean that that's how it is. there are still big differences between how people of different genders are supposed to act. being a woman isn't only about wearing skirts, it's about how you're treated and seen and all that stuff ..idk



I'm just using those as examples to say that this gender is defined by these stereotypes. I'm completely indifferent to how the concept of genders is used or what social impacts they might have.


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## tumut (Apr 28, 2017)

The definition of gender is that its a social/cultural construct. You can't have an opinion on "what it means". Sorry hunny, you're not above definitions.


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## Trundle (Apr 28, 2017)

gyro said:


> People who are AFAB (assigned female at birth) can have XO, XXX, XXXX, and XY chromosomes and people who are AMAB (assigned male at birth) can have XXYY, XYY, and XX chromosomes.
> Not only that, but the hormonal patterns for people with XX chromosomes can completely mirror XY chromosomes and vice versa, an example being androgen insensitivity syndrome. So basically people can have xy chromosomes, testicles, a vulva, a vagina all at the same time with all of them being _completely naturally grown._ Also for what it's worth, the amount of intersex people like this mirrors the amount of people with red hair!



I agree with most of your points, and I was already previously aware of the multitude of variations of naturally grown chromosomes, but I am curious (and I am asking to learn); isn't all the XXXX, XO, XXYY stuff just off chance genetic mutation? I don't know if it even plays into gender because isn't that all completely unrelated to the mind?

- - - Post Merge - - -



Aniko said:


> *Okay people it's all interesting but the question was about you personally. Why do you think you belong to a gender if you belong to one. There are no bad answers, you may change your mind. you may not know. It's doesn't matter.
> 
> *
> Also if the reason why you think you belong to a gender disappear, will your opinion change as well?
> ...



I think you need to read a book sometime.


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## seliph (Apr 28, 2017)

Apple2013 said:


> I agree with most of your points, and I was already previously aware of the multitude of variations of naturally grown chromosomes, but I am curious (and I am asking to learn); isn't all the XXXX, XO, XXYY stuff just off chance genetic mutation? I don't know if it even plays into gender because isn't that all completely unrelated to the mind?



Sure it is but a lot of people are stuck on the thought that only xx and xy exist and that these are what determine someone's sex/gender, and that women _strictly_ have xx and men _strictly_ have xy so I mentioned them.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Aniko said:


> *Okay people it's all interesting but the question was about you personally. Why do you think you belong to a gender if you belong to one. There are no bad answers, you may change your mind. you may not know. It's doesn't matter.
> 
> *



Gender isn't one of those things. It isn't an opinion like "what do you think of dipping your fries in ice cream". If you're asking what gender people are, fine. But what gender actually is isn't something subjective or personal



Aniko said:


> Examples:
> 
> your doctor tell you your chromosomes doesn't match your genitals, you are in fact genetically the opposite gender.



This would never happen ever. Mainly because gender isn't genetic anyways.


----------



## Aniko (Apr 28, 2017)

Apple2013 said:


> I agree with most of your points, and I was already previously aware of the multitude of variations of naturally grown chromosomes, but I am curious (and I am asking to learn); isn't all the XXXX, XO, XXYY stuff just off chance genetic mutation? I don't know if it even plays into gender because isn't that all completely unrelated to the mind?
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



I started the thread so *I'M* the one deciding on the topic mind you. Do you have to read a book to know what gender you are today? Do you relate to one? Do you think it might change if we take off the reasons why you think you have one?
We are playing with ideas here. We have no need for books.

- - - Post Merge - - -



gyro said:


> Sure it is but a lot of people are stuck on the thought that only xx and xy exist and that these are what determine someone's sex/gender, and that women _strictly_ have xx and men _strictly_ have xy so I mentioned them.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



Hm... People may have a lot of opinion on genders, they surely know how to tell someone else what gender they should be, but when it comes to their own gender, they can't always tell why they relate to one. Most of people just go with if they are fine or not with their genitals, but we know it's not just that. What gender is really, it's something more complexe I would think.


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## seliph (Apr 28, 2017)

Aniko said:


> Hm... People may have a lot of opinion on genders, they surely know how to tell someone else what gender they should be, but when it comes to their own gender, they can't always tell why they relate to one. Most of people just go with if they are fine or not with their genitals, but we know it's not just that. What gender is really, it's something more complexe I would think.



Gender is one of those things where the more you look into it the more confusing it gets. Since it's a concept that was basically forced on us as it is, most peoples' response to "What makes you feel like you're a ____?" other than referring to their genitals would be "I just feel like it" and that's really all it needs to be.


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## Aniko (Apr 28, 2017)

So I'm closing this thread because obviously everyone just want to talk about the neighbor's gender and why they are wrong to think that way.

Thanks to the people who participated.

- - - Post Merge - - -



gyro said:


> Gender is one of those things where the more you look into it the more confusing it gets. Since it's a concept that was basically forced on us as it is, most peoples' response to "What makes you feel like you're a ____?" other than referring to their genitals would be "I just feel like it" and that's really all it needs to be.



Absolutely, it wasn't perhaps clear enough in the first post.

- - - Post Merge - - -

Oh we can't close thread here?...LOL Well I will let the choice to the moderator then.


----------



## Soda Fox (Apr 28, 2017)

Aniko said:


> *Okay people it's all interesting but the question was about you personally. Why do you think you belong to a gender if you belong to one. There are no bad answers, you may change your mind. you may not know. It's doesn't matter.
> 
> *
> Also if the reason why you think you belong to a gender disappear, will your opinion change as well?
> ...



I wanted to answer this because I get what you mean now. Sorry we didn't understand. 

My gender is female because I was born female and despite my masculine preference I choose to identify as what I was told I am my whole life. So my gender is my choice built on the social constructs I was taught.


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## seliph (Apr 28, 2017)

No one's talking about anyone else's gender though. People are just defining gender which is great because a lot of people still have the wrong idea about it. Learning is good.


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## Ghost Soda (Apr 28, 2017)

Well, to be fair, the title itself is pretty general. Maybe a more personal title for the thread, like maybe "What does gender mean to you."

Personally, identifying as agender, gender is a weird thing to me. It's like, the thought of people seeing me as a man or a woman just bothers me. I'd perfer it if people just saw me as a human being without any kind of gender attached to me one way or the other. That's just me, though.


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## seliph (Apr 28, 2017)

Ghost Soda said:


> Well, to be fair, the title itself is pretty general. Maybe a more personal title for the thread, like maybe "What does gender mean to you."



I think even that would bring a bunch of people with transphobic and cissexist comments but then again so would anything with the word "gender" in it.


Anyways to answer the question I'm a "femme" dude but it means nothing and honestly gender is stupid and I wish we could all forget about it entirely.


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## Ghost Soda (Apr 28, 2017)

gyro said:


> I think even that would bring a bunch of people with transphobic and cissexist comments but then again so would anything with the word "gender" in it.
> 
> 
> Anyways to answer the question I'm a "femme" dude but it means nothing and honestly gender is stupid and I wish we could all forget about it entirely.



You're right. It's sad but true...


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## Aniko (Apr 28, 2017)

gyro said:


> No one's talking about anyone else's gender though. People are just defining gender which is great because a lot of people still have the wrong idea about it. Learning is good.



Oh yeah they did, nobody said names, but we talked a lot more about "other people" and "in general". (even me)
And it wasn't really the point even if it's interesting.

There are already plenty of studies and articles on the subject telling us what we should think, but I'm interested in what people think of themselves, and why they are relating to a gender. There are no bad answers. If a cis-woman (or not) relate to the female gender because of the clothes, long hair and girly stuff, be it. It's sure that it's not shared by everybody and another person could also call herself woman without any of this. I wanted the people to feel free to say what they think without fearing being judged, if they feel that way because of their sex, it's alright as well, but they have to keep in mind that it's not everybody that can do that.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Ghost Soda said:


> Well, to be fair, the title itself is pretty general. Maybe a more personal title for the thread, like maybe "What does gender mean to you."
> 
> Personally, identifying as agender, gender is a weird thing to me. It's like, the thought of people seeing me as a man or a woman just bothers me. I'd perfer it if people just saw me as a human being without any kind of gender attached to me one way or the other. That's just me, though.



Yeah maybe ... "What does gender mean to you" I may take yours...

It's also a weird thing to me, but I let people see me as they want, human or alien. It's doesn't bother me but they can't expect me to act according to their own definition of my gender.

- - - Post Merge - - -



gyro said:


> I think even that would bring a bunch of people with transphobic and cissexist comments but then again so would anything with the word "gender" in it.
> 
> 
> Anyways to answer the question I'm a "femme" dude but it means nothing and honestly gender is stupid and I wish we could all forget about it entirely.



So I will keep it like this then.

It's how you feel and it's alright.

For people I'm a masculine girl, or sometimes I shy guy, sometimes they can't tell. To me it's doesn't matter. I say that I'm attracted to guys, but I don't really have a clear definition of what a guy is either..  But yeah it's a slippery slope better not go that way...


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## Dogemon (Apr 28, 2017)

kallie said:


> I was referring to the general idea that females are more emotional, more empathetic, and men are more logical and mean.
> 
> That's literally what the concept of brain sex comes from. What is brain sex? What is the difference between a "male" and "female" brain then? So they have different brain waves that mean nothing?
> 
> ...



Biological male brains and biological female brains do have slight differences, and they don't mean anything. As gyro noted, the amount of neurons in the hypothalamus is different between sexes and trans members often do have brains that align with their cis counterpart. I was not trying to ever say brains have gender-based behavior or anything like that. Also I've never met an educated doctor who has denied helping a trans person due to dealing with Tumblr idiots. Perhaps I live in a progressive part of the conservative South.

It's your prerogative if you want to police who and who is not trans because you think there are a ton of rapists who are posing as trans, which statistically there isn't, but I personally don't see how you can say who is and who isn't.


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## Bowie (Apr 28, 2017)

Just because you have your life in order doesn't mean anybody else has to be in any sort of a rush to be or be pressured into thinking a certain way.

It's nobody's business but their own whether they think they're a man, woman, or beast. If someone came up to me and told me they were a woman I wouldn't really care. Not sure why anybody would feel the need to ask them about it either way, but maybe that's just me.


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## Primarina (Apr 28, 2017)

Yaezakura said:


> And there you're just flat out wrong. Biology is an incredibly flexible, often messy thing. Do you think XX and XY are what every person on the planet is? Because you'd be very, very wrong. Some people only have one sex chromosome. Some have three or more.
> 
> Also, I wasn't aware that "no average person" included so very many people. I certainly don't mean biological sex when I say "gender". Neither does... basically anyone I know younger than about 60.





Yaezakura said:


> My apologies. It just... irks me when people insist their own view of things is some undeniable truth. _Especially_ when they are factually, demonstrably wrong. I have a hard time not challenging such people.



Oh the irony, because you're factually, demonstrably wrong. And I know people with intersex conditions exist, but still all that matters is the presence or absence of a Y chromosome. You could have just a Y or XXY and either way you're male. You could have X or XXX and either way you're female. Any statement to the contrary is factually inaccurate.

And if you really think pretty much everyone under 60 agrees with your definition of gender, you're simply mistaken. Where's your evidence for that assertion? Did you take a scientific poll?


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## seliph (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> Oh the irony, because you're factually, demonstrably wrong. And I know people with intersex conditions exist, but still all that matters is the presence or absence of a Y chromosome. You could have just a Y or XXY and either way you're male. You could have X or XXX and either way you're female. Any statement to the contrary is factually inaccurate.
> 
> And if you really think pretty much everyone under 60 agrees with your definition of gender, you're simply mistaken. Where's your evidence for that assertion? Did you take a scientific poll?



Hi where's your evidence for literally anything you've said in this thread?


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## Primarina (Apr 28, 2017)

visibleghost said:


> yes bc ppl have been McFreaking Wrong 4 a long time. gender and sex arent the same thing just like how chaurs abd sofas arent the same
> 
> also how are gender roles biological ...



No, they haven't been wrong. Biological sex, which gender has always been a synonym for, can't be changed and is the only thing that matters in determining one's sex, not their feelings, not how they dress, nothing.

I never said gender roles are biological and if that's what you got out of what I said you are mistaken. I said biology _influences_ the roles cultures assign the sexes. In other words they are not entirely independent of biological influence; they don't occur in a vacuum.

- - - Post Merge - - -



gyro said:


> Hi where's your evidence for literally anything you've said in this thread?



Where's yours? You're the one contradicting biology 101, so the burden of proof is on you, the one making the claims contrary to basic biology.


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## seliph (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> Where's yours? You're the one contradicting biology 101, so the burden of proof is on you, the one making the claims contrary to basic biology.



My first post was full of links, go click on em.

Also sex has not "always been" a synonym for gender. Especially now that dictionaries are literally changing their definition.


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## oath2order (Apr 28, 2017)

gyro said:


> My first post was full of links, go click on em.
> 
> Also sex has not "always been" a synonym for gender. Especially now that dictionaries are literally changing their definition.



it always has been but that doesn't mean it always will be

let me be the semantic ******* ok


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## Primarina (Apr 28, 2017)

gyro said:


> My first post was full of links, go click on em.
> 
> Also sex has not "always been" a synonym for gender. Especially now that dictionaries are literally changing their definition.



It has _always_ universally been a synonym for gender until very very recently in history when some started to change the definition for political reasons, and most people still use them synonymously, even doctors.


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## Dogemon (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> It has _always_ universally been a synonym for gender until very very recently in history when some started to change the definition for political reasons, and most people still use them synonymously, even doctors.



Ancient historians of Greek and Rome also felt that gender and sex we're different though?

Also sidenote, I literally work with and have lived around doctors for most of my life and none use gender and sex interchangably.


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## seliph (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> It has _always_ universally been a synonym for gender until very very recently in history when some started to change the definition for political reasons, and most people still use them synonymously, even doctors.



If there's an "until" then it is not "always" anymore.

Science itself has again and again proven that sex and gender are different things but some people want to cling on outdated dictionary definitions that were written by some blumbering old fart.

Also I'm going to ask again, where are your sources for these "most people"? You've asked many people for sources, which they have given, but you haven't given any yourself. I would like to know where you get your information.


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## oath2order (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> It has _always_ universally been a synonym for gender until very very recently in history when some started to change the definition for political reasons, and most people still use them synonymously, even doctors.



or maybe it was always used differently but because of the oppression that trans people had to live under people couldn't talk about it like they do now


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## tumut (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> It has _always_ universally been a synonym for gender until very very recently in history when some started to change the definition for political reasons, and most people still use them synonymously, even doctors.


Okay











Hunny, you've a big storm comin'


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## Primarina (Apr 28, 2017)

Dogemon said:


> Ancient historians of Greek and Rome also felt that gender and sex we're different though?
> 
> Also sidenote, I literally work with and have lived around doctors for most of my life and none use gender and sex interchangably.



Proof?

Anecdotal evidence, but if we're playing the anecdotal evidence game, I've filled out plenty of medical forms in my life asking for my gender, and they weren't asking about what I "identify as", they were asking what I am.

- - - Post Merge - - -



tumut said:


> Okay
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As I said to you in the other thread where you posted this, look at definition 2. It is literally sex.


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## seliph (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> Proof?
> 
> Anecdotal evidence, but if we're playing the anecdotal evidence game, I've filled out plenty of medical forms in my life asking for my gender, and they weren't asking about what I "identify as", they were asking what I am.



I will bet you 1000 dollars that those forms said "Sex" not "Gender".


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## tumut (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> Proof?
> 
> Anecdotal evidence, but if we're playing the anecdotal evidence game, I've filled out plenty of medical forms in my life asking for my gender, and they weren't asking about what I "identify as", they were asking what I am.
> 
> ...


Uhhh you do realize that that's colloquial and not the literal definition. Either way it doesn't matter because we don't use those definitions anymore. It's 2017 wake up and smell the taxes.


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## oath2order (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> Proof?
> 
> Anecdotal evidence, but if we're playing the anecdotal evidence game, I've filled out plenty of medical forms in my life asking for my gender, and they weren't asking about what I "identify as", they were asking what I am.
> 
> ...



please show pictures of these forms thx


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## Primarina (Apr 28, 2017)

gyro said:


> If there's an "until" then it is not "always" anymore.
> 
> Science itself has again and again proven that sex and gender are different things but some people want to cling on outdated dictionary definitions that were written by some blumbering old fart.
> 
> Also I'm going to ask again, where are your sources for these "most people"? You've asked many people for sources, which they have given, but you haven't given any yourself. I would like to know where you get your information.



If people start saying 2+2=5 it doesn't make it true. And are you seriously going to argue that most people agree that sex and gender are different things? Then why do most people still think transgender people are incorrect about thinking they're the opposite sex?

And science has not proven _anything_ that supports sex and gender being different things. This is not settled science.


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## Dogemon (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> Proof?
> 
> Anecdotal evidence, but if we're playing the anecdotal evidence game, I've filled out plenty of medical forms in my life asking for my gender, and they weren't asking about what I "identify as", they were asking what I am.
> 
> ...



You can have my degree if you want. No medical forms as what you identify as because it has heck all to do with MEDICAL ISSUES.


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## Primarina (Apr 28, 2017)

gyro said:


> I will bet you 1000 dollars that those forms said "Sex" not "Gender".



No, I've had forms with both in my life. And I remember one very well, because at the time, when I was young and stupid, I agreed with you on this issue and told them "gender is not sex".

- - - Post Merge - - -



Dogemon said:


> You can have my degree if you want. No medical forms as what you identify as because it has heck all to do with MEDICAL ISSUES.



Exactly, because it is a feeling, not a fact.


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## oath2order (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> If people start saying 2+2=5 it doesn't make it true. And are you seriously going to argue that most people agree that sex and gender are different things? Then why do most people still think transgender people are incorrect about thinking they're the opposite sex?
> 
> And science has not proven _anything_ that supports sex and gender being different things. This is not settled science.




most people where exactly miss thing because you need to start showing some evidence for your claims

also i notice your profile says you live in md it must really grind your gears that we're so open to trans people!!


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## Primarina (Apr 28, 2017)

oath2order said:


> please show pictures of these forms thx



Here's an example of one from Google:


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## seliph (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> If people start saying 2+2=5 it doesn't make it true. And are you seriously going to argue that most people agree that sex and gender are different things? Then why do most people still think transgender people are incorrect about thinking they're the opposite sex?
> 
> And science has not proven _anything_ that supports sex and gender being different things. This is not settled science.



"If people start saying 2+2=5 that doesn't make it true" except these people are professionals who know what they're talking about. Also this same argument can be used against you. Just because a lot of people say "Sex and gender are the same thing" doesn't make it true.

"Science hasn't proven anything"

http://www.theplaidzebra.com/scienc...lank-slates-and-gender-is-merely-a-construct/

You could also google this yourself or, like I said, actually click on the many links people have posted here.


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## oath2order (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> Here's an example of one from Google:
> 
> View attachment 198202



im sorry but is that the actual form that you yourself filled out


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## Dogemon (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> No, I've had forms with both in my life. And I remember one very well, because at the time, when I was young and stupid, I agreed with you on this issue and told them "gender is not sex".
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



No, it is just a fact that does not affect what medical illnesses you can get? Funny how you want to say professionals say certain things, but when they don't say things you agree with, it is because of "postmodernist" nonsense. Us medical professionals actually have to know the difference of gender and sex as part of NCLEX.


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## rayaacrossing (Apr 28, 2017)

THERE IS 2 GENDERS PEOPLE

- - - Post Merge - - -

TWO    
GENDERS
OKAY


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## oath2order (Apr 28, 2017)

katacnl said:


> THERE IS 2 GENDERS PEOPLE
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



you are twelve and don't know what you're talking about pls take science classes


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## Primarina (Apr 28, 2017)

oath2order said:


> most people where exactly miss thing because you need to start showing some evidence for your claims
> 
> also i notice your profile says you live in md it must really grind your gears that we're so open to trans people!!



If most people used them differently (like transgender people), then wouldn't most people in the world be on your side of the transgender debate? It's obvious most people use them as synonyms.

What does where I live have to do with anything substantive in relation to this argument? And I have no problem with transgender people, I have a problem with people who lie and say you can change your sex, when you can't.


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## oath2order (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> If most people used them differently (like transgender people), then wouldn't most people in the world be on your side of the transgender debate? It's obvious most people use them as synonyms.
> 
> What does where I live have to do with anything substantive in relation to this argument? And I have no problem with transgender people, I have a problem with people who lie and say you can change your sex, when you can't.



you can in fact change your sex for example if i chopped my penis off and got a vag then i would be a woman

EVIDENCE FOR CLAIMS OR GTFO


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## Primarina (Apr 28, 2017)

oath2order said:


> you are twelve and don't know what you're talking about pls take science classes



If you took a biology class you wouldn't be saying this.


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## oath2order (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> If you took a biology class you wouldn't be saying this.



i did in fact take a biology class sweetie

honors bio in high school and again in college

and guess what sweetie sex and gender are still different


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## Primarina (Apr 28, 2017)

oath2order said:


> you can in fact change your sex for example if i chopped my penis off and got a vag then i would be a woman
> 
> EVIDENCE FOR CLAIMS OR GTFO



You can't change your chromosomes. And where's your evidence? I'm not making any claims that are extraordinary, you're the ones trying to deny basic biology.

- - - Post Merge - - -



oath2order said:


> i did in fact take a biology class sweetie
> 
> honors bio in high school and again in college
> 
> and guess what sweetie sex and gender are still different



Ok hunty, you're actually delusional.


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## oath2order (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> You can't change your chromosomes. And where's your evidence? I'm not making any claims that are extraordinary, you're the ones trying to deny basic biology.



you made the claim that most people think transgender people are incorrect about thinking they're the opposite sex

do you have polling data sweetie?


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## Primarina (Apr 28, 2017)

oath2order said:


> im sorry but is that the actual form that you yourself filled out



No, but it is an example of a medical form using gender to mean biological sex, so such forms exist.

- - - Post Merge - - -



oath2order said:


> you made the claim that most people think transgender people are incorrect about thinking they're the opposite sex
> 
> do you have polling data sweetie?



Sweetie, if most people think that then how are transgender people so "oppressed"?


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## oath2order (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> You can't change your chromosomes. And where's your evidence? I'm not making any claims that are extraordinary, you're the ones trying to deny basic biology.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



please watch your language and don't use hunty because that is a combination of honey and a four letter offensive C word that refers to the vagina and that word isn't allowed here!!!


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## seliph (Apr 28, 2017)

Still waiting on those sources. I need them to feed my family, we are starving and if we don't get them we will di


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## Dogemon (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> If most people used them differently (like transgender people), then wouldn't most people in the world be on your side of the transgender debate? It's obvious most people use them as synonyms.
> 
> What does where I live have to do with anything substantive in relation to this argument? And I have no problem with transgender people, I have a problem with people who lie and say you can change your sex, when you can't.



You cannot change your chromosomes you are right. However, if you have sex reassignment and hormone therapy, for all non-intervention purposes, you are essentially the other sex when doctors are examining you and prescribing you meds.


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## oath2order (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> Sweetie, if most people think that then how are transgender people so "oppressed"?



Answer the question. Do you or do you not have polling data that would prove the point you're trying to make?


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## tumut (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> If you took a biology class you wouldn't be saying this.


Coming from the person who literally said men are smarter than women according to ""science""

http://www.belltreeforums.com/showt...ou-right-now&p=7321573&viewfull=1#post7321573


----------



## Primarina (Apr 28, 2017)

gyro said:


> "If people start saying 2+2=5 that doesn't make it true" except these people are professionals who know what they're talking about. Also this same argument can be used against you. Just because a lot of people say "Sex and gender are the same thing" doesn't make it true.
> 
> "Science hasn't proven anything"
> 
> ...



Plaid Zebra? What is this sub-Buzzfeed garbage? Try citing some actual peer-reviewed science, thanks.

- - - Post Merge - - -



tumut said:


> Coming from the person who literally said men are smarter than women according to ""science""
> 
> http://www.belltreeforums.com/showt...ou-right-now&p=7321573&viewfull=1#post7321573



I never said that. I actually said that the extreme ends of the IQ spectrum, both the absolute dumbest and absolute smartest _tend_ to have more men. You have no capacity for subtlety.


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## oath2order (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> Plaid Zebra? What is this sub-Buzzfeed garbage? Try citing some actual peer-reviewed science, thanks.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811915007697


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## Primarina (Apr 28, 2017)

oath2order said:


> please watch your language and don't use hunty because that is a combination of honey and a four letter offensive C word that refers to the vagina and that word isn't allowed here!!!



Oh, really? Well it isn't that word, so what does it matter?

- - - Post Merge - - -



oath2order said:


> Answer the question. Do you or do you not have polling data that would prove the point you're trying to make?



You don't have polling data showing most people accept your definition of gender.


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## seliph (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> Sweetie, if most people think that then how are transgender people so "oppressed"?



Because they are denied jobs, denied medical care, are murdered for existing....



Primarina said:


> Plaid Zebra? What is this sub-Buzzfeed garbage? Try citing some actual peer-reviewed science, thanks.



You're going to disregard a source without reading it because of... the site name? That's a new dodging method if I've ever seen one.

This just proves you have no actual intent of any discussion no regard for facts, and you just want to shut people down who disagree with you. Also, where are your peer-reviewed science sources? I've been asking you for a few pages now.


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## oath2order (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> Oh, really? Well it isn't that word, so what does it matter?



it's the implication pls watch your language this is a forum primarily for children

also still waiting on that polling data!!


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## Primarina (Apr 28, 2017)

oath2order said:


> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811915007697



What does this have to do with anything? First of all it is one study, and anyone who knows science knows one study proves nothing.


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## Dogemon (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> What does this have to do with anything? First of all it is one study, and anyone who knows science knows one study proves nothing.



Yet you have no studies....


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## oath2order (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> Oh, really? Well it isn't that word, so what does it matter?
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



You made the claim, you need to provide the data or otherwise you're merely just trolling.

Given that you're clearly being purposefully ignorant and not doing, refusing to back up any of your claims, I think you need to leave the discussion because you're clearly not providing anything of value here.

Either provide some statistics about what you're claiming, stop moving the goalposts, stop bouncing it back on other people, and back up what you're saying.

http://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-...laws-limiting-transgender-rights-poll-n731826

https://www.aol.com/article/news/20...om-laws-limiting-transgender-rights/21879293/

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2017/03/majority_of_americans_oppose_b.html

You can extrapolate that these people that oppose the bathroom rights that limit transgender rights that they also think that sex is different from gender.


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## Primarina (Apr 28, 2017)

oath2order said:


> it's the implication pls watch your language this is a forum primarily for children
> 
> also still waiting on that polling data!!



Are you a mod? (genuinely wondering)


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## oath2order (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> Are you a mod? (genuinely wondering)



no but i'm looking out for you!!!


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## Primarina (Apr 28, 2017)

Dogemon said:


> Yet you have no studies....



Sure I do, but you people are convinced of that sex and gender are different because of political reasons, so science wouldn't change your mind. Also, if male and female brains _aren't_ different, how can one even be transgender?


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## tumut (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> I never said that. I actually said that the extreme ends of the IQ spectrum, both the absolute dumbest and absolute smartest _tend_ to have more men. You have no capacity for subtlety.


Except sex doesn't affect intelligence at all, and you said the smartest people tend to be men so lmao.


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## Primarina (Apr 28, 2017)

oath2order said:


> You made the claim, you need to provide the data or otherwise you're merely just trolling.
> 
> Given that you're clearly being purposefully ignorant and not doing, refusing to back up any of your claims, I think you need to leave the discussion because you're clearly not providing anything of value here.
> 
> ...



"You don't agree with me, therefore you should leave the discussion."


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## Dogemon (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> Sure I do, but you people are convinced of that sex and gender are different because of political reasons, so science wouldn't change your mind. Also, if male and female brains _aren't_ different, how can one even be transgender?



Go back and actually read all my posts you ignored and you will literally find all your answers. You also have posted no sources.


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## seliph (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> because of political reasons



We have been linking you scientific studies. If you would actually read the links people are sending you and not disregarding them for silly reasons, you would see this and not have questions that have actually been answered several times.


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## Primarina (Apr 28, 2017)

tumut said:


> Except sex doesn't affect intelligence at all, and you said the smartest people tend to be men so lmao.



And the dumbest! And where is your proof that sex and IQ distribution are not related? Are you a neuroscientist?


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## oath2order (Apr 28, 2017)

Primarina said:


> "You don't agree with me, therefore you should leave the discussion."



Wow look at that you ignore my sources, as expected!

- - - Post Merge - - -



Primarina said:


> And the dumbest! And where is your proof that sex and IQ distribution are not related? Are you a neuroscientist?



Are you?


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## Dogemon (Apr 28, 2017)

Dogemon said:


> Go back and actually read all my posts you ignored and you will literally find all your answers. You also have posted no sources.




"Science wouldn't change your mind" sure that is why I am in STEM.


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## Trent the Paladin (Apr 28, 2017)

And I think we've reached the point in the thread where we go from having discussions, to WWE recreational matches. 

Also for those of you at home wondering, "How can we lock our thread in boards that don't give us the option to?" Why the answer is simple, you can report your original post and request a lock!


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