# Transgender People No Longer Allowed to Enlist - Thoughts?



## lumenue (Jul 26, 2017)

Sorry if this is a little too political, but I was curious to know what people thought about Trump's latest move: banning transgender people from enlisting in the military.




Personally, I'm not sure what I feel.  I think it's a discriminatory action for sure, but I also see the point that there's already a long list of medical conditions that will prevent you from enlisting in the military - so, with body dysmorphia being one of the common symptoms/side effects for transgender people, could that be a genuine reason to bar their entry?  

I think that Trump's is using 'medical costs' unlawfully here, as there is data that shows just how small these medical costs for trans people in military are, comparatively speaking.

What's everyone's thoughts on this? (And please keep it polite, I'm just trying to discuss!)


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## rbell2915 (Jul 26, 2017)

I support this decision.


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## boring (Jul 26, 2017)

As somebody who is trans (and very very proud) I have very mixed feelings about this.
I understand his reasoning, but with such a notorious anti LGBT history, I don't feel I will ever whole heart-edly support any decision he will make


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## MayorZenia (Jul 26, 2017)

I also think it's discriminatory for sure but I understand the reasoning, I'm pretty neutral about it if anything because I don't know enough about transgender people and things they go through, of course I've heard some may have things like body dysmorphia and such but I don't even know if it's so common it would be enough to exclude them. I just kind of feel bad for transgender people since they won't be able to cover surgery costs that way. I just found it kind of rude that he used the words "burdened".


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## twins (Jul 26, 2017)

My best friend in the world served in the U.S. Navy as a transgendered female. She is kind, intelligent, and passionate about our country so much so that she decided to risk her life for it. I do not support this decision.


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## lumenue (Jul 26, 2017)

rbell2915 said:


> .


Is it okay if I ask why?   It seems like (from your profile) you're involved or at least very supportive of the military, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it!



Lijan said:


> .


I see what you mean about his past with the LGBT+ community, it's hard to support something like this knowing that his heart might not be in the right place.



MayorZenia said:


> .


Yeah, his phrasing was rude - I'm still not sure how I feel about a president who uses Twitter as his main form of communication with America!  That aside, I'm in the same boat.  I know very few transgender people personally, and this is a hard thing to judge from an outside stand point.


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## rbell2915 (Jul 26, 2017)

I'm even against females serving in the infantry, which is my profession. No one really understands the ramifications of these sorts of things because it doesn't affect them. For instance, you can't have females sleeping in the same rooms as men, they need different bathrooms as well, the logistics would be completely insane. Not to mention that females are biologically not as strong as men. How can I expect you to drag or carry me if I've been shot, when I weigh about 225 lbs with just a flak jacket on? 

The military works just fine. Stop trying to fix issues that aren't there. 

And if they expect gender reassignment surgery while in the military? Who is going to do that, let alone pay for it? The system is already extremely full with service members and dependants that it took me four weeks just to get a physical therapy appointment. If funds to do these types of surgeries are taken from the national defense budget, you're essentially taking ammunition out of my rifle, fuel out of our tanks, and missiles off our aircraft just for these surgeries. It's wrong. 

The military shouldn't be a social experiment/playground when you have so much at stake.


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## lumenue (Jul 26, 2017)

rbell2915 said:


> .


Really good opinion!  I definitely see what you're saying and where you're coming from, especially since you have experience.  If you don't mind my asking, is every branch of the military trained in combat? (I don't know a whole lot about the military)


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## Alolan_Apples (Jul 26, 2017)

Transgender people are already facing trouble in Texas when the bathroom bill passed in the senate. Now they can't serve in the military? This was a bad decision made by Tronald Dump.


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## rbell2915 (Jul 26, 2017)

Thank you, and that's okay! Honestly, I'm not too sure. For instance, the Marines require everyone to have at least 30 days of training for combat, but that's about it for most jobs. If you're in the Infantry, it's your profession so you train for combat all the time. The Army is roughly the same, I imagine. 

The Air Force, Navy, and Coast Guard don't fight on the ground, so most likely not.


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## Adonis-Sun (Jul 26, 2017)

It pisses me off. Trans people...are just people. Just like cis people. Why can't we all focus on the things we share and have in common, and not keep acting like childish morons? We are all people, and everybody deserves happiness, in my opinion.


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## rbell2915 (Jul 26, 2017)

When you enlist, you have to go through extremely thorough screening processes, they interrogate you about your physical and mental health in great detail and they give you a complete physical. There are multitudes of reasons you can be denied entry, from heart conditions and asthma, to flat fleet and marijuana usage. Should we just allow anyone to serve because they want to? To make them happy?


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## Adonis-Sun (Jul 26, 2017)

I like how you brought up. If someone has asthma or something, which is a disability, they shouldn't join the military and put themselves in danger. Transgender, however, is not a disablity. There is nothing wrong with being transgender, so if they want to be in the militaty, let them.


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## lumenue (Jul 26, 2017)

I don't know that it was brought up in terms of a disability, so much as something that could be debilitating in combat or in the field.  That's why you can't enlist in the army if you have asthma - something like that could be the difference between life or death in the field.  The way I see it, the less the troops are dependent on medication like hormones (or inhalers!), the easier it is for the enlisted men and women to be completely focused on the situation at hand.  

I'm still not sure that I understand the transgender ban in that aside from hormones and other medications, the transitional surgery is elective and should (in my opinion) not be covered by the military in the first place.  Same with cosmetic surgeries, and things like Viagra and birth control.  Just my opinion though!


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## kayleee (Jul 26, 2017)

Adonis-Sun said:


> I like how you brought up. If someone has asthma or something, which is a disability, they shouldn't join the military and put themselves in danger. Transgender, however, is not a disablity. There is nothing wrong with being transgender, so if they want to be in the militaty, let them.



Marijuana usage isn't a disability either, but I can understand the reasoning against allowing users in the military


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## ShinyYoshi (Jul 26, 2017)

I have a lot of thoughts on this, but I'll spare everyone the paragraphs. 

I really just want to comment on how incredibly rude the wording of Trump's tweets were and I really hope it doesn't make any trans people feel like they are a burden to society in any way.


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## Bowie (Jul 26, 2017)

What he says isn't the Gospel. Him being president does not mean he can be excluded from being called transphobic. He _is_ transphobic.

But, when you consider the fact he doesn't have any respect for women in general, it doesn't really surprise me.


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## Soraru (Jul 26, 2017)

i do have a trans friend who i talked to about this earlier, and i would like to share his voice. since he is very educated on this topic.

he says "in all seriousness though "we can't pay for transgender medications" is an excuse for bigots to hate transgenderism as a whole. pay for that wall, and pay for trump's countless golf sessions, but its a problem once transgender health is involved."

i personally agree with this statement because remember, this decision for the reason as to "save money for things that are more important" is coming from a man who spent 10mil tax payer dollars on vacation in less than 30 days of becoming president in comparison to our last president who spent 12mil a year. 

back to what my friend said "Not to mention that most transgender people, believe it or not, actually pay out of pocket for their hormones and surgeries. FtM + MtF surgeries that take insurance are hand to find as is, and even if they do, they don't cover much. Hormones are not as costly as you would think. Hormones literally only cost 50 dollars MAX for a monthly supply."

"And it makes 0 sense to say trans people are ineligible and incapable of serving because gender dysphoria does not physically disable anyone."



Spoiler: definition



Gender dysphoria is a condition where a person experiences discomfort or distress because there is a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity...This mismatch between sex and gender identity can lead to distressing and uncomfortable feelings that are called gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is a recognised medical condition, for which treatment is sometimes appropriate. It is not a mental illness.



"In fact most trans men who serve end up becoming much stronger physically than cis males because their gender dysphoria motivates them to work out harder and become stronger physically which makes them happier emotionally. If a trans person suffered so much from dysphoria they wouldn't enlist in the military in the first place. Its a mental thing."

To add on, to call it dysmorphia means to have deformed or abnormalities in the body, different from dysphoria. trans people have dysphoria NOT dysmorphia. body dysmorphia disorder aka bdd is a mental illness. anyways back to friend.

"But even if this wasn't the case, i'd be more than happy to contribute to someone's healthcare regardless of situation if they were going out there and serving our country. whether they are transgender or a cis who struggles with physical conditions, i would know that they are fully deserving of it. This is not about tax dollars, it is most certainly not about concern for anyone's mental of physical health."

i agree with this ^ if this really were about tax dollars, he wouldn't have such costly vacation, if this were about the concern for peoples health he wouldn't repeal obamacare.

anyways thats just a few thoughts.


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## Corrie (Jul 27, 2017)

rbell2915 said:


> When you enlist, you have to go through extremely thorough screening processes, they interrogate you about your physical and mental health in great detail and they give you a complete physical. There are multitudes of reasons you can be denied entry, from heart conditions and asthma, to flat fleet and marijuana usage. Should we just allow anyone to serve because they want to? To make them happy?



There's a difference between being screened and then deemed unable and automatically being denied due to your gender.

Edit: with this, he isn't even allowing them to try.


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## rbell2915 (Jul 27, 2017)

- - - Post Merge - - -



Corrie said:


> There's a difference between being screened and then deemed unable and automatically being denied due to your gender.
> 
> Edit: with this, he isn't even allowing them to try.



The military declines admission to any other person requiring ongoing medical treatment, such as those with diabetes that require ongoing insulin treatment, or someone with ADHD and bipolar disorders that require ongoing medical treatments. So if these people are denied entry in the military then how would it be fair to allow anyone that requires ongoing medical treatment entry into the military?

The military should NOT and does NOT allow ANY person who is in need of ongoing medical treatment to enter the military, hormone therapy or otherwise.


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## Corrie (Jul 27, 2017)

rbell2915 said:


> View attachment 204647
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



What if they aren't currently on medical treatment or can't afford it? Some aren't at that "stage" yet.
Then they aren't breaking any laws I don't think?


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## LambdaDelta (Jul 27, 2017)

disgusting and bad, end of story

and **** anyone defending this transphobic bull**** that only serves to further erode trans people's societal worth while channeling any costs to them into building a ****ing wall that doesn't need to exist, or some other garbage ass worthless ****


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## tumut (Jul 27, 2017)

Pence would've done worse.


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## LambdaDelta (Jul 27, 2017)

yay double post~!


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## rbell2915 (Jul 27, 2017)

Corrie said:


> What if they aren't currently on medical treatment or can't afford it? Some aren't at that "stage" yet.
> Then they aren't breaking any laws I don't think?



Should the government and military be held liable to pay for that? 
Like I previously said, the military has a very important job to do and it must be done without compromise. It is not the place for social experimentation.


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## Fa11enInsanity (Jul 27, 2017)

I disagree with this decision. As Americans and people we are all equal no matter what race we are or what gender we choose to be identified as. If someone chooses to serve, they do it for the pride of their country. No one should be suppressed to do something so honorable... it's the same reason why women in the past disguised themselves as men so that they can go to war and be equal as men. It's disgusting how disrespectful this man is. He doesn't care about his country, he just wants to meme on Twitter and supposedly make America "great again" in which I'm still waiting to see happen.


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## rbell2915 (Jul 27, 2017)

LambdaDelta said:


> disgusting and bad, end of story
> 
> and **** anyone defending this transphobic bull**** that only serves to further erode trans people's societal worth while channeling any costs to them into building a ****ing wall that doesn't need to exist, or some other garbage ass worthless ****



Nothing gets your point across like profanity does.


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## Bowie (Jul 27, 2017)

Fearmongering is disgusting.

A study from the RAND Corporation, conducted in June of 2016, estimated that there were between 1,320 and 6,630 transgender active-duty service members (out of 1.3 million overall members), and noted that not all of them would seek treatment related to gender transitioning (because transgenderism does not necessarily mean you want to physically alter yourself, something I honestly thought ya'll would know).

The study also estimated that the cost associated with medical care for gender transition would only increase military health care expenditures by between $2.4 million and $8.4 million each year, an increase of between 0.04 and 0.13 percent.

So, this so-called "tremendous" and "burdening" financial difficulty is horse dump. It was completely uncalled for, and the only other explaination, and the most obvious, is that he's completely and utterly transphobic, and the truly non-existent financial difficulty was a good excuse for it.


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## LambdaDelta (Jul 27, 2017)

rbell2915 said:


> Nothing gets your point across like profanity does.



I've long since stopped giving a **** about trying to get any point across to people that clearly won't listen


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## Goshi (Jul 27, 2017)

I already despise the military to an almost unspeakable level so for me personally it's ineffective, but what this is is a middle finger to those trans folk who have/are enlisted and going through all of this crap only to have the nation they believe they're fighting for repay them by turning its back on them. It's an act of discrimination based on fearmongering and stereotyping and generalizations and misinformation. Being trans isn't a handicap, someone who is trans can execute their job to the fullest capability. 

What all of this is actually showing that I'm concerned about is how easily certain groups can be removed from doing certain things as long as there's some sort of excuse to back it up. Like, this is just the first step, I feel, to an ongoing trip of excluding X minority from Y because the government can. We were edging towards progress a bit, but with this possibility in mind we're gonna probably be set back a lot.



Bowie said:


> Fearmongering is disgusting.
> 
> A study from the RAND Corporation, conducted in June of 2016, estimated that there were between 1,320 and 6,630 transgender active-duty service members (out of 1.3 million overall members), and noted that not all of them would seek treatment related to gender transitioning (because transgenderism does not necessarily mean you want to physically alter yourself, something I honestly thought ya'll would know).
> 
> ...



Also, *this.* Also, let's not forget that they spend more on viagra for people in the military, which is useless, but nobody's getting up in arms about that, of course.

Like, since medical costs would only rise from $2.4 to $8 million if we allocated to pay for all trans soldiers medical needs that's all negligible pocket change considering how our military budget is upwards of $600 billion dollars as is, and we spend $84 million *annually* on Viagra and similar drugs for vets and on duty soldiers. Trans soldiers are not that expensive and additionally are a minority group in the military. There's no excuse.

If Trump's concern is surgery costs and hormone treatments, stop funding surgery and hormones.(And Viagra while you're at it.) Denying an entire group on the other hand isn't the correct notion.


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## Nuclear Bingo (Jul 27, 2017)

Adonis-Sun said:


> I like how you brought up. If someone has asthma or something, which is a disability, they shouldn't join the military and put themselves in danger. Transgender, however, is not a disablity. There is nothing wrong with being transgender, so if they want to be in the militaty, let them.



I think it's viewed as a liability not a disability in this case


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## Mellyjan3 (Jul 27, 2017)

I don't support it nor the way he addressed this and how insensitive he was with his choice of words. As if trans people are  worthless, when they should be honored that a person their country discriminates so highly would still fight for it in the first place. Bet that would change in a heartbeat if all our soldiers were dying and we were scarce but it shouldn't have to come to that.

- - - Post Merge - - -



LambdaDelta said:


> disgusting and bad, end of story
> 
> and **** anyone defending this transphobic bull**** that only serves to further erode trans people's societal worth while channeling any costs to them into building a ****ing wall that doesn't need to exist, or some other garbage ass worthless ****





Bowie said:


> Fearmongering is disgusting.
> 
> A study from the RAND Corporation, conducted in June of 2016, estimated that there were between 1,320 and 6,630 transgender active-duty service members (out of 1.3 million overall members), and noted that not all of them would seek treatment related to gender transitioning (because transgenderism does not necessarily mean you want to physically alter yourself, something I honestly thought ya'll would know).
> 
> ...





LambdaDelta said:


> I've long since stopped giving a **** about trying to get any point across to people that clearly won't listen





Goshi said:


> I already despise the military to an almost unspeakable level so for me personally it's ineffective, but what this is is a middle finger to those trans folk who have/are enlisted and going through all of this crap only to have the nation they believe they're fighting for repay them by turning its back on them. It's an act of discrimination based on fearmongering and stereotyping and generalizations and misinformation. Being trans isn't a handicap, someone who is trans can execute their job to the fullest capability.
> 
> What all of this is actually showing that I'm concerned about is how easily certain groups can be removed from doing certain things as long as there's some sort of excuse to back it up. Like, this is just the first step, I feel, to an ongoing trip of excluding X minority from Y because the government can. We were edging towards progress a bit, but with this possibility in mind we're gonna probably be set back a lot.
> 
> ...



This. And they already **** everyone with care and the wages, i don't see why they'd exclude anyonw particular because they treat every soldier like a broken toy when they can't fight anymore so what's the difference with someone with trans? This is the same military that used to give cocaine and meth to our soldiers but now suddenly they care about who enlists when they're all just expendable anyways to begin with.


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## therian (Jul 27, 2017)

Tbh I think it's stupid lol, it doesn't matter who you are, if you are physically fit and a citizen, you should be able to enlist into the army, simple as that


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## rbell2915 (Jul 27, 2017)

What positives are there to allowing trans people into the military? 

You don't know what it's like. You don't want to be different, you want to be the same as everyone else. Diversity≠Cohesion. When you're out in the field training for months on end so far from everyone you love, it gets rough. I've seen Marines get in fights over not listening to orders. Marines have died training. If you don't have your head in the fight, people can and will die. If you're confused on what gender you are, you are going to be combat ineffective and everyone is going to hate you for it. 

Yet again we have people with no interest in serving in the military deciding on how it should be and who it should accept.


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## cocainecowboy (Jul 27, 2017)

To my knowledge, transgender people weren't causing any real issues in the military prior to his ban, and the "financial burden" is a pretty useless argument considering the military spends it's money on things that are far more useless. I don't know, personally it seems most of the arguments are people showing their lack of knowledge on what being transgender means -or- outing themselves as transphobic. It's also pretty telling that Trump didn't ban hormones or reassignment surgery, he banned transgender people altogether.

edit: All of that aside, if someone is willing to put thier life on the line for a country, I'd be more than willing to chip in to something that improves their well-being.


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## Soraru (Jul 27, 2017)

and yet here we have a cis dude telling trans people how they are going to behave when they enroll in the military as if he can fortune tell how they are going to act, all in one generalized sentence.

are you saying that for the military to be cohesive they have to have the same people who think like each other? makes sense. problem is your indirectly saying that trans people are incapable of being cohesive with others.

there are trans people out there who either already are or plan to serve in the military they are able to do so, just because you may not have met one doesn't mean they aren't out there. _no one is talking about how the military should be run, everyone is talking about this problem which is this generalized ban that categorizes every trans person under a single label. a burden._

and people above have explained how money isn't the issue with this. and my post explained dysphoria, so there cant be an excuse for that.

not that long ago black men weren't allowed to serve in the army, and the excuse was that their fighting skills were inferior to whites. and i'm pretty sure the latter would also excuse it as "political correctness has no place in the military."

and in my personal opinion, this country don't deserve any minority to fight for it, because of how this country and its founders people treats them, but if a minority wants to fight for this country then i respect their decision. regardless of whether i understand or share their sentiments or not. if they want to serve this country, let them have the rights to do so. 

because if this country REALLY did follow along with its motto and what its supposed to stand for, we wouldn't be having this problem and we wouldn't even be having such a president that creates this problem.


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## rbell2915 (Jul 27, 2017)

Really? That took not even thirty seconds of research. I'm not sure where on earth you got the idea that blacks couldn't serve in the military until "not long ago," when they've been in essentially every conflict America has been in.

It's fine if you think transgenders should serve in the military. You're free to think that. But for the time being, it's not going to happen. 

I just looked up how long it takes someone to transition to another sex. Allegedly it can take from several months to several years. I'm not sure in what planet you live on, but if someone in your unit is out for that long it places a huge burden on everyone else because they have to pick up the slack left behind. The military is an extremely tough, fast-paced environment. Go ahead and keep thinking about how horrible of a person I am.


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## Idfldnsndt (Jul 27, 2017)

rbell2915 said:


> If you're confused on what gender you are, you are going to be combat ineffective and everyone is going to hate you for it.




You do realise that transgender people are generally not confused about what gender they are? Do you know what it means to be trans? You live as your gender. You know what gender you are. 

People transition differently, not everyone will want or need surgeries so I don't know why you bring up costs as an issue. It's totally discrimination and disgusting to exclude people from being able to join the mitary just because they are transgender.


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## Soraru (Jul 27, 2017)

rbell2915 said:


> Really? That took not even thirty seconds of research. I'm not sure where on earth you got the idea that blacks couldn't serve in the military until "not long ago," when they've been in essentially every conflict America has been in.
> 
> It's fine if you think transgenders should serve in the military. You're free to think that. But for the time being, it's not going to happen.
> 
> I just looked up how long it takes someone to transition to another sex. Allegedly it can take from several months to several years. I'm not sure in what planet you live on, but if someone in your unit is out for that long it places a huge burden on everyone else because they have to pick up the slack left behind. The military is an extremely tough, fast-paced environment. Go ahead and keep thinking about how horrible of a person I am.



your taking everything im saying way too personally. and as for the information, i didnt get that from wikipedia. that one website every college prof. tells you not to use as a source for research. i got it from my grandfather who serviced longer than you were alive (unless your over 90 years old.) and experienced discrimination first-hand and your deliberately missing the point everyone is saying.

no one said anything about you being a horrible person. and there is nothing i said that implies that. that idea literally just formulated in your head.

if you want to be educated about transgender people, talk to transgender people. googling stuff is cool but not everything out there can be taken as textbook. especially if you dont know who exactly writes or posts this and that.


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## rbell2915 (Jul 27, 2017)

Soraru said:


> your taking everything im saying way too personally. and as for the information, i didnt get that from wikipedia. that one website every college prof. tells you not to use as a source for research. i got it from my grandfather who serviced longer than you were alive (unless your over 90 years old.) and experienced discrimination first-hand and your deliberately missing the point everyone is saying.
> 
> no one said anything about you being a horrible person. and there is nothing i said that implies that. that idea literally just formulated in your head.
> 
> if you want to be educated about transgender people, talk to transgender people. googling stuff is cool but not everything out there can be taken as textbook. especially if you dont know who exactly writes or posts this and that.



You're literally dismissing my post just because I used Wikipedia.

https://www.army.mil/africanamericans/timeline.html Is that official enough for you? By the way, the Wikipedia article literally has the sources it references. 

And I'm in the military right now and I don't see any discrimination towards anyone. No one does. Everyone is treated the exact same. You have to earn your respect. I'd die for the guys I'm serving with, and they'd do the same for me. Times have changed. I'm not saying it's right how minorities were treated in the past.


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## Cory (Jul 27, 2017)

I agree the wording could have been better. But this is overall a good decision in my opinion.

- - - Post Merge - - -



rbell2915 said:


> Really? That took not even thirty seconds of research. I'm not sure where on earth you got the idea that blacks couldn't serve in the military until "not long ago," when they've been in essentially every conflict America has been in.
> 
> It's fine if you think transgenders should serve in the military. You're free to think that. But for the time being, it's not going to happen.
> 
> I just looked up how long it takes someone to transition to another sex. Allegedly it can take from several months to several years. I'm not sure in what planet you live on, but if someone in your unit is out for that long it places a huge burden on everyone else because they have to pick up the slack left behind. The military is an extremely tough, fast-paced environment. Go ahead and keep thinking about how horrible of a person I am.



Basically agree with all of this


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## Soraru (Jul 27, 2017)

rbell2915 said:


> You're literally dismissing my post just because I used Wikipedia.
> 
> https://www.army.mil/africanamericans/timeline.html Is that official enough for you? By the way, the Wikipedia article literally has the sources it references.
> 
> And I'm in the military right now and I don't see any discrimination towards anyone. No one does. Everyone is treated the exact same. You have to earn your respect. I'd die for the guys I'm serving with, and they'd do the same for me. Times have changed. I'm not saying it's right how minorities were treated in the past.



im not dismissing your post entirely on the fact that you used wikipedia. im taking my grandfathers experience over a random dudes word who says he never saw discrimination in the military. but ill read that article. just because you never saw any discrimination it dont mean it or dealt it dont mean others dont as well. it just means you were likely to not be a part of a targeted group. my grandfathers black, and ill go on an assumption and say your not. thefore your experience in the military is different from his considering this country's history on how they treated black people, both as who or what you both were and of course at the times you both served, different experience. i would go more into discrimination against blacks in the military, but that would be derailing the topic here. since we are talking about transgender people.

back to the topic, my point is that although people think that for whatever reason whatever minority cant do ______ because theyre inferior wether physically/racially/mentally/gender. if given the chance, its going to be proven wrong, it happened many times throughout history. you cant categorize a whole set of people as inferior or having mental/physical health problems. again, there are trans people out there who are able to contribute to military service. just like how there are some white men who have mental or physical illness, they cannot enlist, just like there are some transgender who have physical or mental illnesses. but transgender ITSELF isnt a mental or physical illness, just like how being a male isnt a physical or mental illness.

nobody is talking about how transgender people are entitled to hormones + reassignment surguries paid by govt. money to put that out there is simply another excuse to derail the convo away from the root of the problem, discrimination.


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## AnimalCrossingPerson (Jul 27, 2017)

I have no opinion but the fact that these presidential statements are being tweeted is great. Gosh, he's so hip and trendy.


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## rbell2915 (Jul 27, 2017)

I don't think the root of the problem is discrimination, it's combat readiness. And I'm not talking about whether or not the government should pay for their surgery. Although I don't think they should. I'm talking about the ramifications on the squad, platoon, company, and battalion the member belongs to if they decide to transition.


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## Cory (Jul 27, 2017)

AnimalCrossingPerson said:


> I have no opinion but the fact that these presidential statements are being tweeted is great. Gosh, he's so hip and trendy.



To be completely fair, it is the fastest way to get info out to the American public
He just uses it poorly.


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## tumut (Jul 27, 2017)

CUCKING CUCKS IN THE HOUSE HOOTY HOO THIS THREAD OS OFFICIALLY LIT

- - - Post Merge - - -

I will assaninate Trump and all his Republican cucks in arms who are to succeed him uwu


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## Alienfish (Jul 27, 2017)

rbell2915 said:


> The military shouldn't be a social experiment/playground when you have so much at stake.



Isn't it already, though? Let's send random people to some war and let's see how many and which that comes back somewhat whole.

Also he could very well use the money if he thinks it's so important then to have an army. Personally I'm not for or a fan of the army itself or how "proud" people are serving their country and the attitude that comes with it (like people being very macho and clean-cut) and what it makes to people. If you want to serve for regaining peace on valid ground however, do it if you want but don't come being proud or say they did not warn you about PTSD and such and expect us to feel sorry. This system with the army shouldn't even be there in the first place.

In regards to sex/gender and what's allowed, they should allow whoever. I'd personally never join such things and I can go on with a hippie talk about it, but to be neutral and not go raging I won't. Is it that hard to take care of transgenders, non-binary etc.? It's not that the Dump guy is poor or anything, however they still "want" people.. smh


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## Miii (Jul 27, 2017)

rbell2915 said:


> I'm even against females serving in the infantry, which is my profession. No one really understands the ramifications of these sorts of things because it doesn't affect them. For instance, you can't have females sleeping in the same rooms as men, they need different bathrooms as well, the logistics would be completely insane. Not to mention that females are biologically not as strong as men. How can I expect you to drag or carry me if I've been shot, when I weigh about 225 lbs with just a flak jacket on?
> 
> The military works just fine. Stop trying to fix issues that aren't there.
> 
> ...



THANK YOU. I completely agree. I'm also of the opinion that women shouldn't serve in the military because, should there be another catastrophic war where tons of life is lost... we're the ones capable of birthing children and keeping the population going, to put it bluntly.

As for transgender people serving in the military... I agree with the decision made here. Having a disorder that causes anxiety already prevents you from being able to serve, and gender dysphoria causes an immense amount of mental distress. I've never heard a trans person talk about their dysphoria without mentioning the anxiety it caused for them. Gender dysphoria is also a complex mental issue that we don't have a ton of research surrounding. I think that if being over or under a certain height, having arthritis or sleepwalking can prevent entry into the military, then we should apply the same stringency here.


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## Alienfish (Jul 27, 2017)

Miii said:


> THANK YOU. I completely agree. I'm also of the opinion that women shouldn't serve in the military because, should there be another catastrophic war where tons of life is lost... we're the ones capable of birthing children and keeping the population going, to put it bluntly.



... Excuse me so that's the meaning of life? Really that should be your least issue if you join the military. If you're woman, childbirth should not be your main issue here. You can always adopt or just take care of someone else's kid if you're that in love with it. Also because we are capable should mean we should stay at home and do it.

Even if the laws are more strained sadly you should be able to adopt regardless of gender, as long as you get properly examined and they look at your record.

Which could be the same for the army, and not everything there is doing physical things either, maybe you're a computer pro or a medic... You shouldn't exclude people on random basis' like "everything is heavy physical"


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## Alolan_Apples (Jul 27, 2017)

I believe a governor or someone said that Trump shoud've not said this on Twitter. And yes, some things shouldn't be said on twitter.


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## Alienfish (Jul 27, 2017)

Alolan_Apples said:


> I believe a governor or someone said that Trump shoud've not said this on Twitter. And yes, some things shouldn't be said on twitter.



Especially not like his random tweets that would probably end up again with random covfefe nonsense.


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## rbell2915 (Jul 27, 2017)

Sheila said:


> Isn't it already, though? Let's send random people to some war and let's see how many and which that comes back somewhat whole.
> 
> Also he could very well use the money if he thinks it's so important then to have an army. Personally I'm not for or a fan of the army itself or how "proud" people are serving their country and the attitude that comes with it (like people being very macho and clean-cut) and what it makes to people. If you want to serve for regaining peace on valid ground however, do it if you want but don't come being proud or say they did not warn you about PTSD and such and expect us to feel sorry. This system with the army shouldn't even be there in the first place.
> 
> In regards to sex/gender and what's allowed, they should allow whoever. I'd personally never join such things and I can go on with a hippie talk about it, but to be neutral and not go raging I won't. Is it that hard to take care of transgenders, non-binary etc.? It's not that the Dump guy is poor or anything, however they still "want" people.. smh



I'm not even sure how to reply to this. If you're not for the military, why do you even care who they allow entry? It's annoying enough when civilians try to tell us how to run our organization, but you don't even care. I find that laughable in itself, to be completely honest. And of course there's going to be an attitude a lot of us have. We've done more stuff and gone more places than many people will in their entire lives. Are you trained to eliminate targets in hand to hand combat and as far away as 500 meters? Can you provide first aid to someone who is missing limbs from an explosion or a gunshot wound to the chest? Probably not. 

You not feeling sorry for service members with PTSD is ****ed up. What "system with the army" are you talking about?

And there have been studies (linked below) that transgender youth are much more likely to self-harm or attempt suicide, so evidently if you are part of that statistic, you shouldn't even be serving in the first place. 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/08/160831110833.htm


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## Miii (Jul 27, 2017)

Sheila said:


> ... Excuse me so that's the meaning of life? Really that should be your least issue if you join the military. If you're woman, childbirth should not be your main issue here. You can always adopt or just take care of someone else's kid if you're that in love with it. Also because we are capable should mean we should stay at home and do it.
> 
> Even if the laws are more strained sadly you should be able to adopt regardless of gender, as long as you get properly examined and they look at your record.
> 
> Which could be the same for the army, and not everything there is doing physical things either, maybe you're a computer pro or a medic... You shouldn't exclude people on random basis' like "everything is heavy physical"



The meaning of life _is_ creating more life. That's one of our most ingrained instincts and it's how you prevent your species from dying off. If you risk the lives of the ones capable of bearing children, then you're putting your population at risk. Does that mean we should go back to having no choice in whether or not we become a housewife? No. And I don't see how adoption plays into this.

Additionally, women are better at nurturing than killing. And rbell2915 is right, we aren't as strong as men. Women and men aren't equal; we both have our strengths and weaknesses, which we should celebrate rather than condemn. I don't think saving the feelings of _some_ women is worth sending tons of them off to die.


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## visibleghost (Jul 27, 2017)

* donald trump can go die
* the us military sucks.
* it is discrimination to not allow people to be in the military because of their gender identity. 
*  there are trans people who have already transitioned who wouldnt need medical care that costs a ton of money, that's just an excuse for him to hide behind. 
* the us government will spend enormous amounts of money on the military for whatever other reason but when it's about trans people into the military suddenly it costs too much lol yeah okay but i'm pretty sure there are other ways to save money that will save a lot more money

just my opinions xoxo


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## rbell2915 (Jul 27, 2017)

visibleghost said:


> * donald trump can go die
> * the us military sucks.
> * it is discrimination to not allow people to be in the military because of their gender identity.
> *  there are trans people who have already transitioned who wouldnt need medical care that costs a ton of money, that's just an excuse for him to hide behind.
> ...






Lmao where are you from?


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## visibleghost (Jul 27, 2017)

sweden


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## rbell2915 (Jul 27, 2017)

visibleghost said:


> View attachment 204677View attachment 204678
> 
> sweden



Cute attempt at a personal attack, if only you could read and write my name correctly.


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## tumut (Jul 27, 2017)

Miii said:


> The meaning of life _is_ creating more life. That's one of our most ingrained instincts and it's how you prevent your species from dying off. If you risk the lives of the ones capable of bearing children, then you're putting your population at risk. Does that mean we should go back to having no choice in whether or not we become a housewife? No. And I don't see how adoption plays into this.
> 
> Additionally, women are better at nurturing than killing. And rbell2915 is right, we aren't as strong as men. Women and men aren't equal; we both have our strengths and weaknesses, which we should celebrate rather than condemn. I don't think saving the feelings of _some_ women is worth sending tons of them off to die.


Yeah I have no instinct to create more life. If that's the meaning of life well then got. ****ing. damn. looks like I should probably just kms.

Yeah both sexes got natural strengths/weaknesses, but  lmao women and men have equal capabilities lmao idk how u pulled that myth out if ur ass. U probably got told that at Sunday School.

Anyway, meanwhile while you're out saving our species from dying out (lol), I'm gonna go out , stop at Chick fil a, get some spicy nuggies and enjoy my life.


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## visibleghost (Jul 27, 2017)

Miii said:


> The meaning of life _is_ creating more life. That's one of our most ingrained instincts and it's how you prevent your species from dying off. If you risk the lives of the ones capable of bearing children, then you're putting your population at risk. Does that mean we should go back to having no choice in whether or not we become a housewife? No. And I don't see how adoption plays into this.
> 
> Additionally, women are better at nurturing than killing. And rbell2915 is right, we aren't as strong as men. Women and men aren't equal; we both have our strengths and weaknesses, which we should celebrate rather than condemn. I don't think saving the feelings of _some_ women is worth sending tons of them off to die.



i have a great idea we can stop overpopulation by letting women into the military


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## Alolan_Apples (Jul 27, 2017)

Sheila said:


> Especially not like his random tweets that would probably end up again with random covfefe nonsense.



He seems to be twitter-obsessed more than I am apple-obsessed.

He also said that it costs too much to aid transgender people in the military. Well it costs too much to even declare war, even if we were instigated into doing so (like when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor or when Arthur Zimmermann sent a note to Mexico on taking back Texas).


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## Mink777 (Jul 27, 2017)

tumut said:


> CUCKING CUCKS IN THE HOUSE HOOTY HOO THIS THREAD OS OFFICIALLY LIT
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> I will assaninate Trump and all his Republican cucks in arms who are to succeed him uwu



Mods?

Doesn't matter what side you're on, but c'mon. I've seen you troll before, and you are not be constructive at all.


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## rbell2915 (Jul 27, 2017)




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## tumut (Jul 27, 2017)

Alien. said:


> Mods?


I denounced Donald Trump and evil ass Republican agenda. It's relevant.


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## Mink777 (Jul 27, 2017)

tumut said:


> I denounced Donald Trump and evil ass Republican agenda. It's relevant.



In a immature way that likely nailed the coffin on this depressing thread. It's not relevant, it's immature. Get a life.


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## rbell2915 (Jul 27, 2017)

tumut said:


> I denounced Donald Trump and evil ass Republican agenda. It's relevant.



Advocating murder isn't called for.


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## tumut (Jul 27, 2017)

rbell2915 said:


> Advocating murder isn't called for.


Yeah cause I'd totes go out and murder his ass. Omw to the ovary office w a shotgun xD

- - - Post Merge - - -



Alien. said:


> In a immature way that likely nailed the coffin on this depressing thread. It's not relevant, it's immature. Get a life.


I don't see maturity in the rules bud


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## mogyay (Jul 27, 2017)

anyone who is denounced from the american army is more respectable imo, its absolutely shameful the absolute mess theyve made of so many things, at least this way they can keep their conscious clear and for the record donal trump is disgusting, he can hide behind whatever reasons he wants but its crystal clear hes transphobic


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## Mink777 (Jul 27, 2017)

tumut said:


> Yeah cause I'd totes go out and murder his ass. Omw to the ovary office w a shotgun xD
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



At least you know that you have no maturity whatsoever. How depressing.

People like you are the real reason this world is a depressing mess.


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## tumut (Jul 27, 2017)

Alien. said:


> At least you know that you have no maturity whatsoever. How depressing, lol.


Am I supposed to take discussion on this forum seriously?


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## xSuperMario64x (Jul 27, 2017)

tumut said:


> I don't see maturity in the rules bud


If you can't be mature about this topic of conversation, or anything this controversial, then you really have no business discussing it.


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## mogyay (Jul 27, 2017)

Alien. said:


> At least you know that you have no maturity whatsoever. How depressing.
> 
> *People like you are the real reason this world is a depressing mess*.



ironic how u can say that when we're discussing a man who openly discriminates.. i think i can take a guess on who is making the world a more depressing mess.. not some person on acnl forum


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## Mink777 (Jul 27, 2017)

tumut said:


> Am I supposed to take discussion on this forum seriously?



If you don't want to get banned, then yes.

- - - Post Merge - - -



mogyay said:


> ironic how u can say that when we're discussing a man who openly discriminates.. i think i can take a guess on who is making the world a more depressing mess.. not some person on acnl forum



I'm not defending Trump, I'm singling out the losers who should have no part in this discussion. The trolls. People who do nothing, but sit in front of a computer all day and complain about issues but do nothing IS why this world is a depressing mess.


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## rbell2915 (Jul 27, 2017)

Amazing how a bunch of high schoolers and college kids getting their tuition paid for by mommy and daddy think they know what's best for the military.


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## Nuclear Bingo (Jul 27, 2017)

My  favorite part about this thread is how people are being so vile and hateful to each other in the sake of inclusiveness and anti-discrimination


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## tumut (Jul 27, 2017)

In all seriousness tho, there's no logical reason to exclude trans people. For the most part they're just as able as any, they take hormones and that's about it. Considering we need as many volunteers as we can get. I hope Trump feels good about himself.

At the same time I don't feel like being a part of the military is a bad thing, and you should be proud of it. The soldiers aren't the ones who are making theawful foreign policy decisions. And if no one served a draft could ensue, imagine what a nightmare that would be.

Anyway I see Trump's days in office as numbered. Pence though, he's about 50 times worse.


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## mogyay (Jul 27, 2017)

Alien. said:


> If you don't want to get banned, then yes.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



lol get off from ur computer and do something instead of complaining about issues on a forum then


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## Mink777 (Jul 27, 2017)

mogyay said:


> lol get off from ur computer and do something instead of complaining about issues on a forum then



Lol. The hypocrisy here is making me laugh so hard. Keep going guys, I got all day.


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## rbell2915 (Jul 27, 2017)

tumut said:


> In all seriousness tho, there's no logical reason to exclude trans people. For the most part they're just as able as any, they take hormones and that's about it. Considering we need as many volunteers as we can get. I hope Trump feels good about himself.
> 
> At the same time I don't feel like being a part of the military is a bad thing, and you should be proud of it. The soldiers aren't the ones who are making theawful foreign policy decisions. And if no one served a draft could ensue, imagine what a nightmare that would be.
> 
> Anyway I see Trump's days in office as numbered. Pence though, he's about 50 times worse.



Not including the fact that trans people have a much higher risk for suicidal thoughts and attempts and are more likely to self harm, right? 

Should people who were suicidal be allowed to enlist? 

This isn't foreign policy by the way. That involves other countries. This is purely domestic. The generals and the DOD discuss this and decide what's best for the military. 

And I don't Trump's days are numbered.


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## tumut (Jul 27, 2017)

rbell2915 said:


> Amazing how a bunch of high schoolers and college kids getting their tuition paid for by mommy and daddy think they know what's best for the military.


1. What makes u think that

2. How is that relevant anyway

3. What makes YOU think you know what's best for the military. You're still just some rando on an AC forum so sit your ass down off your high horse bud


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## mogyay (Jul 27, 2017)

Alien. said:


> Lol. The hypocrisy here is making me laugh so hard. Keep going guys, I got all day.



it's you who said that would make the world less depressing not me... i'm happy sitting on my computer all day


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## rbell2915 (Jul 27, 2017)

tumut said:


> 1. What makes u think that
> 
> 2. How is that relevant anyway
> 
> 3. What makes YOU think you know what's best for the military. You're still just some rando on an AC forum so sit your ass down off your high horse bud



At least I'm currently in the military so this affects me?? And it's relevant because people who have absolutely zero experience with any sort of military service are now acting as subject matter experts on this discussion.


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## tumut (Jul 27, 2017)

rbell2915 said:


> Not including the fact that trans people have a much higher risk for suicidal thoughts and attempts and are more likely to self harm, right?
> 
> Should people who were suicidal be allowed to enlist?
> 
> ...


 Their choice not anyone else's, and that doesn't mean they arent capable, and if they have mental health issues, then they shouldn't be enlisted simple as that. You can't just go and deny someone the opportunity to serve because they're more likely to have issues, they can very well not have issues at all.

I was talking about some other people earlier who were saying serving in the army isn't something you should be proud. I'm well aware.


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## ShinyYoshi (Jul 27, 2017)

rbell2915 said:


> And it's relevant because people who have absolutely zero experience with any sort of military service are now acting as subject matter experts on this discussion.



Yeah, welcome to bell tree forums, looks like you're finally figuring it out.

Really though, this thread is a nightmare. Everyone's got their own opinion, this isn't new. But who am I to expect civil discussion from here lol


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## Mink777 (Jul 27, 2017)

mogyay said:


> it's you who said that would make the world less depressing not me... i'm happy sitting on my computer all day



I'm not going ape*** on something I have no control over though, am I? Even then, I am not saying I am better than anyone here.


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## tumut (Jul 27, 2017)

rbell2915 said:


> At least I'm currently in the military so this affects me?? And it's relevant because people who have absolutely zero experience with any sort of military service are now acting as subject matter experts on this discussion.


The only one who's acting like they're an expert is you bud.


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## rbell2915 (Jul 27, 2017)

Is it worth it? The amount of trans in the military is so small, and there are so few trans who want to enlist even in proportion to their population, that this is a tail wagging the dog scenario.


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## Soraru (Jul 27, 2017)

rbell2915 said:


> Amazing how a bunch of high schoolers and college kids getting their tuition paid for by mommy and daddy think they know what's best for the military.



 you as a non trans person talk about how trans people are and how they behave despite never meeting or talking to one.

ironically you criticize that people who arent in the military shouldnt decide how its run yet applaud the decision making of a transphobic reality star cheeto who has no experience in the military or respect for its veterans.

your clearly not here to debate despite you continously posting, your just here with your marine elitisim ego over civilians, and troll others with your recycled sarcastic jokes. grow up and stop trying to start a flame war.


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## Alienfish (Jul 27, 2017)

tumut said:


> Yeah I have no instinct to create more life. If that's the meaning of life well then got. ****ing. damn. looks like I should probably just kms.
> 
> Yeah both sexes got natural strengths/weaknesses, but  lmao women and men have equal capabilities lmao idk how u pulled that myth out if ur ass. U probably got told that at Sunday School.
> 
> Anyway, meanwhile while you're out saving our species from dying out (lol), I'm gonna go out , stop at Chick fil a, get some spicy nuggies and enjoy my life.



Same, I don't wanna any whiny small toddlers crawling around, and if I have woo hoo I do it because I like the feeling not because I maybe want a kid, sweet cheese.

Yes, maybe we should everyone capable of creating life, and that nurturing literally anyone is just bs.

Oh right, forgot I need to go headbang and mosh pit all night at the concert. Toodles while Miii rages over another life not being created.


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## xSuperMario64x (Jul 27, 2017)

Where the hell are the mods?????


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## rbell2915 (Jul 27, 2017)

tumut said:


> The only one who's acting like they're an expert is you bud.



No I'm pretty sure every single person here is acting like an expert because they proclaim to know all so much about the military and its workings that it's absolutely necessary for trans people to serve even though they don't even know the rank structure, let alone anything else actually relating to the military.


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## Bcat (Jul 27, 2017)

xSuperMario64x said:


> Where the hell are the mods?????



agreed. close this trainwreck immediately. any attempt at civil discussion has gone out the window


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## Alienfish (Jul 27, 2017)

rbell2915 said:


> Is it worth it? The amount of trans in the military is so small, and there are so few trans who want to enlist even in proportion to their population, that this is a tail wagging the dog scenario.



Well if they wanna enlist, they should be able to do so. As I said I am against army and its bs system but if they wanna do it on valid grounds go ahead and your sex/gender should not matter as long as you are into it with everything that comes after as well.

Then US should stop pulling the equal and land of freedom country myth from their ass all the time, Dump clearly stated there you guys are not. And if he is so rich he should be able to provide both trans people and women the proper care.

And yeah I think we are more experts coming from valid points of view since we are not defending a crap system and pres like you seem to do.


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## xSuperMario64x (Jul 27, 2017)

K y'all need to just stop. Nobody's gonna win here. It's just a never ending flame war at this point. If y'all keep arguing it's just gonna lead to a bunch of warnings and possibly bans.


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## rbell2915 (Jul 27, 2017)

Soraru said:


> you as a non trans person talk about how trans people are and how they behave despite never meeting or talking to one.
> 
> ironically you criticize that people who arent in the military shouldnt decide how its run yet applaud the decision making of a transphobic reality star cheeto who has no experience in the military or respect for its veterans.
> 
> your clearly not here to debate despite you continously posting, your just here with your marine elitisim ego over civilians, and troll others with your recycled sarcastic jokes. grow up and stop trying to start a flame war.



Yet you talk about how the military should allow entry to trans even though you have no first hand experience with it. And it was the recommendation of the chiefs of staff, the president just happens to support and enforce it.


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## Alienfish (Jul 27, 2017)

xSuperMario64x said:


> K y'all need to just stop. Nobody's gonna win here. It's just a never ending flame war at this point. If y'all keep arguing it's just gonna lead to a bunch of warnings and possibly bans.



Yeah, I'll stop there, I think my point has been made.


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## Mink777 (Jul 27, 2017)

xSuperMario64x said:


> K y'all need to just stop. Nobody's gonna win here. It's just a never ending flame war at this point. If y'all keep arguing it's just gonna lead to a bunch of warnings and possibly bans.



I think that that is already going to happen. Nobody here knows how to argue constructively. Everyone who participated in this thread deserves a ban, myself included.


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## Bcat (Jul 27, 2017)

xSuperMario64x said:


> K y'all need to just stop. Nobody's gonna win here. It's just a never ending flame war at this point. If y'all keep arguing it's just gonna lead to a bunch of warnings and possibly bans.



the point where warnings need to be given is already passed... It's really sad how quickly a civil sharing of opinions degraded into full-on mud-slinging...


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## Mink777 (Jul 27, 2017)

Actually I take my post back a bit. I do believe that rbell2915 was being constructive, but everyone else deserves a ban.


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## tumut (Jul 27, 2017)

xSuperMario64x said:


> K y'all need to just stop. Nobody's gonna win here. It's just a never ending flame war at this point. If y'all keep arguing it's just gonna lead to a bunch of warnings and possibly bans.


Hey maybe you should stop minimodding and let the thread die out on it's own.

@rbell you don't military experience to have an opinion on this issue so like shut the **** up already
you've been trying to make that argument work for like 20 minutes now


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## moonford (Jul 27, 2017)

This thread is a disaster, nothing new there. heh. 

It's sad to see that these people are unable to defend their country when they want to, I'm not a fan of the US or the decisions they have made, many of which involve the army sending in troops to missions with little cause which end in those troops dying but it is their decision and if they believe it is the right thing to do then so be it, right?

If a transgender person has fully transitioned and are physically, mentally and emotionally fit for the job then let them participate in what they want to do. I don't see the harm in that case. If a transgender person hasn't full transitioned and may suffer many emotional and mental problems then they shouldn't be able to join the army, this applies to everyone trans or not.

That trash of a President can adjust his manner to be more Presidential and sophisticated when making announcements like these, especially if they are going to be seen by millions maybe even billions of people, especially transgender people who are being secluded from society because of acts like this.


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## tumut (Jul 27, 2017)

Alien. said:


> Actually I take my post back a bit. I do believe that rbell2915 was being constructive, but everyone else deserves a ban.


GJ maybe the mods will hire u!


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## Soraru (Jul 27, 2017)

Alien. said:


> Actually I take my post back a bit. I do believe that rbell2915 was being constructive, but everyone else deserves a ban.



have you even read these posts? hes the only one posting memes and recycling flame bait. because you agree with his point dont mean hes not provoking others.


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## rbell2915 (Jul 27, 2017)

Sheila said:


> Well if they wanna enlist, they should be able to do so. As I said I am against army and its bs system but if they wanna do it on valid grounds go ahead and your sex/gender should not matter as long as you are into it with everything that comes after as well.
> 
> Then US should stop pulling the equal and land of freedom country myth from their ass all the time, Dump clearly stated there you guys are not. And if he is so rich he should be able to provide both trans people and women the proper care.
> 
> And yeah I think we are more experts coming from valid points of view since we are not defending a crap system and pres like you seem to do.



What exactly are you against regarding the military and it's system? What system are you even referring to? And yeah, definitely you all are experts, and I'm just an idiot defending a "crap system and pres", since I'm disagreeing with you and providing my argument. 

That's a nice way of shutting down discussion and opposing viewpoints. 
*Rolls eyes*


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## Jake (Jul 27, 2017)

tumut said:


> Hey maybe you should stop minimodding and let the thread die out on it's own.


Truer words have never been spoken.


----------

