# Is BTF a safe place for non-binary people?



## goatling (Jun 19, 2015)

Just curious-- do you think this forum has a generally positive attitude towards non-binary people? Unlike other forums, I haven't seen a lot of cissexism here, but at the same time I find that generally my correct pronouns are ignored or avoided entirely.


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## piichinu (Jun 19, 2015)

well maybe in your sig you should put your pronouns, i honestly couldnt even tell by looking at this post and if its on your profile most people wont check

edit: ik people are gonna say never assume genders but it's not that easy and it takes a little getting used to. so we need reminders sometimes


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## Jarrad (Jun 19, 2015)

Everyone's welcome, but it shouldn't really matter/be applicable what you identify as, as this is a forum about the animal crossing franchise.


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## goatling (Jun 19, 2015)

piimisu said:


> well maybe in your sig you should put your pronouns, i honestly couldnt even tell by looking at this post and if its on your profile most people wont check
> 
> edit: ik people are gonna say never assume genders but it's not that easy and it takes a little getting used to. so we need reminders sometimes



 This is something I've thought about and will probably eventually do, but at the moment the idea makes me slightly anxious.

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Jarrad said:


> Everyone's welcome, but it shouldn't really matter/be applicable what you identify as, as this is a forum about the animal crossing franchise.



 The forum is about Animal Crossing, and this a thread for off-topic discussion. I'm just curious to hear what experiences people have had here.


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## Damien Collier (Jun 19, 2015)

Personally, I don't think it's come up much. I'm transgender, and open about it, so I think if anyone would talk about it a lot, it'd be me. 

Generally people just don't talk about their gender, and I think some of it is because its unlisted on the profiles themselves.


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## goatling (Jun 19, 2015)

Damien Collier said:


> Personally, I don't think it's come up much. I'm transgender, and open about it, so I think if anyone would talk about it a lot, it'd be me.
> 
> Generally people just don't talk about their gender, and I think some of it is because its unlisted on the profiles themselves.



 That would make sense! I haven't been on this forum for a while (though it's been almost a year since I joined, I took a very long break from New Leaf and thus, this forum) so I haven't been able to get a good idea of what the general attitude is like, you know?


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## Damien Collier (Jun 19, 2015)

goatling said:


> That would make sense! I haven't been on this forum for a while (though it's been almost a year since I joined, I took a very long break from New Leaf and thus, this forum) so I haven't been able to get a good idea of what the general attitude is like, you know?



*it comes up, lol

Yeah, from what I've seen, just like anything, you have to be around a certain crowd for them to really get it. With that being said, though, the little I have seen people talking about their genders (particularly ones that aren't cis m/f) it doesn't seem like anyone attacks them or shames them in any form. I'd say you're safe, and even if someone does give you a hard time-- they're just being an *******.


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## goatling (Jun 19, 2015)

Damien Collier said:


> *it comes up, lol
> 
> Yeah, from what I've seen, just like anything, you have to be around a certain crowd for them to really get it. With that being said, though, the little I have seen people talking about their genders (particularly ones that aren't cis m/f) it doesn't seem like anyone attacks them or shames them in any form. I'd say you're safe, and even if someone does give you a hard time-- they're just being an *******.



 That's good to hear! I can tell that BTF is a more positive place than the other Animal Crossing forum I originally joined, so it's good to hear that it's generally safe too!


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## MyLifeIsCake (Jun 19, 2015)

Honestly I don't think that it would be a big issue since this is the internet and no one can really tell who is what gender without them specifying it on the forum... If I wanted to refer to a user I would simply use their username. But yeah, maybe if you want to be referred as a certain gender put the pronoun in your sig so that way someone won't make a mistake.


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## Shimmer (Jun 19, 2015)

I barely know what gender anyone is here. xD I don't think gender matters here.


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## goatling (Jun 19, 2015)

MyLifeIsCake said:


> Honestly I don't think that it would be a big issue since this is the internet and no one can really tell who is what gender without them specifying it on the forum... If I wanted to refer to a user I would simply use their username. But yeah, maybe if you want to be referred as a certain gender put the pronoun in your sig so that way someone won't make a mistake.



I understand that, but there are people who do tend to assume pronouns, and it never feels good to be misgendered, even when it's a simple mistake. I will eventually put my pronouns in my signature, but like I said, the thought makes me anxious as of now.

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Shimmer said:


> I barely know what gender anyone is here. xD I don't think gender matters here.



 I do think that, even in communities like this, gender does matter in some way, especially since many people tend to assume you're male or female, even if it's not being said outright.


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## Katelyn (Jun 19, 2015)

From what I have seen, gender doesn't matter on here. Though there are a few people it might bother, the majority of us simply don't care. Yes, people will assume what gender you are based on avatars or whatever, but that shouldn't really matter. Just correct them and all will be well.

Pretty much what I'm trying to say is, as long as you aren't going to be overly sensitive about pronouns and whatnot then you'll fit in well here ^-^ Hopefully this didn't come off as being rude .-.


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## ShinyYoshi (Jun 19, 2015)

There have been big arguments when gender-specific threads were around, it's hard to explain, but people weren't being rude just because someone said they were a specific gender. If that makes sense. 
I don't think someone will be rude to you just because you are non-binary, but people will be rude to you just in general. This is the internet, sadly. 

I don't know how many times I've posted that I am a female, but I still get male pronouns thrown at me. And people will assume your gender without asking, and they usually don't mean any harm of it if you've never told them the pronouns you prefer. 
I guess just try and be clear what you want to be called, but remember not everyone will know and people will make mistakes.


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## goatling (Jun 19, 2015)

Ah, I'm not trying to pick a fight, I was just wondering about the experiences other n.b. people have had here... 

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I understand that people make mistakes, I try my best to be understanding and I'm quite used to it. When I do get upset, it's because I recognize that there's a fine line between making a mistake and purposely misgendering someone. Again, I am not trying to pick a fight, I'm just asking for opinions on the matter from n.b. people.


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## Cadbberry (Jun 19, 2015)

Everyone is welcome :3 every part of you is, this fourm is for fun and if people snap for it friends are always there to back you up <3 <3


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## goatling (Jun 19, 2015)

katiegurl1223 said:


> Pretty much what I'm trying to say is, as long as you aren't going to be overly sensitive about pronouns and whatnot then you'll fit in well here ^-^ Hopefully this didn't come off as being rude .-.



Okay, I disagree with your opposition to being sensitive about pronouns, though. People have the right to be upset about being misgendered because it's honestly very insulting. I obviously don't think it's okay to yell at someone who doesn't know better or just made a mistake-- it's a hard adjustment for some people, and even I make the same kind of mistakes too. That said, people do need to realize that it is incredibly upsetting, and some people have a hard time handling it emotionally. 

It really shouldn't come as a surprise that people can be sensitive about their pronouns.

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Cadbberry said:


> Everyone is welcome :3 every part of you is, this fourm is for fun and if people snap for it friends are always there to back you up <3 <3



 This is a kind thing to say, thank you!


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## Katelyn (Jun 19, 2015)

goatling said:


> Okay, I disagree with your opposition to being sensitive about pronouns, though. People have the right to be upset about being misgendered because it's honestly very insulting. I obviously don't think it's okay to yell at someone who doesn't know better or just made a mistake-- it's a hard adjustment for some people, and even I make the same kind of mistakes too. That said, people do need to realize that it is incredibly upsetting, and some people have a hard time handling it emotionally.
> 
> It really shouldn't come as a surprise that people can be sensitive about their pronouns.
> 
> ...



No no no, that's not what I meant. I meant if you're going to yell at someone who misgendered you once and it was an accident, then you won't be welcome here. But, if they are purposely doing it or have done it multiple times, then be my guest and yell at them, they deserve every bit of your anger. Sorry about the misunderstanding ;-;


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## MotaroRIP (Jun 19, 2015)

I think this place is a safe place for almost anyone. It's an overall very nice forum.


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## ShinyYoshi (Jun 19, 2015)

goatling said:


> Ah, I'm not trying to pick a fight, I was just wondering about the experiences other n.b. people have had here...
> 
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> 
> I understand that people make mistakes, I try my best to be understanding and I'm quite used to it. When I do get upset, it's because I recognize that there's a fine line between making a mistake and purposely misgendering someone. Again, I am not trying to pick a fight, I'm just asking for opinions on the matter from n.b. people.



I'm sorry if my post came off that way, I can tell you aren't trying to pick any fights. I was just saying there have been fights here before, but they were more about the equality of different gendered people and I think you would have had to read those fights to really understand when I say they weren't about trying to just pick on people with different genders. 

I think the people here are pretty accepting of other genders and I hope you find it to be that way!


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## KittybotANI (Jun 19, 2015)

I generally assume everyone is male until specified otherwise.  Since it's grammatically the traditional neutral pronoun, I feel it's the safest bet.  I don't particularly think it matters or anyone here cares, it's just most expedient when typing a post to have a default pronoun to use so you don't have to go to everyone's profile (if they even mentioned it) every single time to check when you're just typing a short post.  For example: "SoAndSo posted in the looking for thread that he was looking for Lolly."  It isn't a matter of offense, it's a matter of efficiency.  Also seems less rude than "it" and less grammatically clumsy than "they."  Though that's an awful lot of thought for a two to three letter word.


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## WonderK (Jun 19, 2015)

From what I've observed in the past two years, the forum is generally very safe in that regard. There have been fights and there but it usually involved something a bit more. You're fine here and you have my word on that.


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## goatling (Jun 19, 2015)

KittybotANI said:


> I generally assume everyone is male until specified otherwise.  Since it's grammatically the traditional neutral pronoun, I feel it's the safest bet.  I don't particularly think it matters or anyone here cares, it's just most expedient when typing a post to have a default pronoun to use so you don't have to go to everyone's profile (if they even mentioned it) every single time to check when you're just typing a short post.  For example: "SoAndSo posted in the looking for thread that he was looking for Lolly."  It isn't a matter of offense, it's a matter of efficiency.  Also seems less rude than "it" and less grammatically clumsy than "they."  Though that's an awful lot of thought for a two to three letter word.



I actually incredibly dislike being referred to as male in anyway. Male pronouns are no longer the "traditional pronouns" and calling everyone a "he" is very offensive to many... I'm honestly appalled... 

And, for those who find simply asking about pronouns a waste of time, and not a big deal, this is the reason why some care so much about it. I find it very offensive to be told that my pronouns don't matter, and aren't worth the time to find out, when I've been called the wrong pronouns for most of my life. To finally make the change in my life and become open about my gender was an incredibly stressful, scary thing for me. And now that I'm finally open about my gender, I'd actually really, really like for my pronouns to be respected, after hearing the wrong ones for so long.

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WonderK said:


> From what I've observed in the past two years, the forum is generally very safe in that regard. There have been fights and there but it usually involved something a bit more. You're fine here and you have my word on that.



 Thank you very much!


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## KittybotANI (Jun 20, 2015)

goatling said:


> I actually incredibly dislike being referred to as male in anyway. Male pronouns are no longer the "traditional pronouns" and calling everyone a "he" is very offensive to many... I'm honestly appalled...
> 
> And, for those who find simply asking about pronouns a waste of time, and not a big deal, this is the reason why some care so much about it. I find it very offensive to be told that my pronouns don't matter, and aren't worth the time to find out, when I've been called the wrong pronouns for most of my life. To finally make the change in my life and become open about my gender was an incredibly stressful, scary thing for me. And now that I'm finally open about my gender, I'd actually really, really like for my pronouns to be respected, after hearing the wrong ones for so long.
> 
> ...



I did say "until specified."  If someone says "call me this" then I'm happy to oblige.  Thing is, that almost never comes up around here.  A used car salesman isn't going to ask you how many X chromosomes you have and what's inside your underwear and your brain, they just want your money and to get a piece of junk off their lot.  People here are very friendly and inviting, and just want to play the game, talk about the game, trade items and villagers.  Nobody's here to offend anyone intentionally.


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## Red Cat (Jun 20, 2015)

I think the vast majority of people here accept people for who they are. What you have to understand is that gender identity is a complex issue and not everyone is going to know the politically correct pronoun to call someone when there are so many gender identities out there. If someone calls you the wrong pronoun, just politely correct that person, and if that person insists on calling you something else after you've made it explicitly clear what you want to be called, just ignore that person.



KittybotANI said:


> I generally assume everyone is male until specified otherwise.


Do you pay any attention to the demographics of this website?


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## Jamborenium (Jun 20, 2015)

yeah we're cool with non-binary people here, but like others said it would be good for you to put your preferred pronouns into your sig that way we will know. because honestly one will not know someones preferred pronouns off the back magically you gotta tell them.

I myself go by she/her and they/them either of those are cool with me TBH, though my close friends just replace any gender pronouns when talking about me with my name "Nebu" which I actually do prefer a lot more. 


but anyhoo no need to worry okay as long as your'e a nice person you will do well here
with no problems and if anyone gives you trouble with your gender choices then Ignore them
they aren't even worth an ounce of your time.​


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## goatling (Jun 20, 2015)

KittybotANI said:


> I did say "until specified."  If someone says "call me this" then I'm happy to oblige.  Thing is, that almost never comes up around here.  A used car salesman isn't going to ask you how many X chromosomes you have and what's inside your underwear and your brain, they just want your money and to get a piece of junk off their lot.  People here are very friendly and inviting, and just want to play the game, talk about the game, trade items and villagers.  Nobody's here to offend anyone intentionally.



First of all, gender has aaabsolutely nothing to do with genitalia or X/Y chromosomes... Second of all, you're right, people here are friendly and we're here to enjoy a game we all love, and I clearly (I've stated this multiple times) didn't start this thread to start an argument. But you're being pretty blatantly cissexist, and I can ignore that you cannot take the time to click on someone's profile twice. But the fact that you choose not to use the _actual_ gender-neutral pronoun, "they," until you know someone's actual pronouns because "grammatically clumsy" (?) makes absolutely no sense to me. And assuming everyone is male and using male pronouns as gender-neutral pronouns until told otherwise is so ridiculously cissexist (_and_ sexist). 

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Red Cat said:


> I think the vast majority of people here accept people for who they are. What you have to understand is that gender identity is a complex issue and not everyone is going to know the politically correct pronoun to call someone when there are so many gender identities out there. If someone calls you the wrong pronoun, just politely correct that person, and if that person insists on calling you something else after you've made it explicitly clear what you want to be called, just ignore that person.





goatling said:


> I understand that people make mistakes, I try my best to be understanding and I'm quite used to it.



Again, _I'm completely aware of all of this and used to dealing with it._ I don't attack people for accidentally misgendering me, despite popular belief...


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## KittybotANI (Jun 20, 2015)

Red Cat said:


> I think the vast majority of people here accept people for who they are. What you have to understand is that gender identity is a complex issue and not everyone is going to know the politically correct pronoun to call someone when there are so many gender identities out there. If someone calls you the wrong pronoun, just politely correct that person, and if that person insists on calling you something else after you've made it explicitly clear what you want to be called, just ignore that person.
> 
> 
> Do you pay any attention to the demographics of this website?



Do demographics really matter?  I don't care if you're male, female, neither, gay, straight, or a giraffe, it's a video game.  You want my perfect peaches, I'm not examining your entire identity before I trade/sell/give them to you.  I'm going to let you have the peaches.  Why should I like or dislike you for a demographic?  I reserve my dislike for people who earn it.  And not many do.  In fact no one I've met on this forum has ever seemed worthy of dislike.


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## goatling (Jun 20, 2015)

KittybotANI said:


> You want my perfect peaches, I'm not examining your entire identity before I trade/sell/give them to you.



 But you'll still assume they're male? I thought gender had nothing to do with it.


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## Red Cat (Jun 20, 2015)

It's time to close this thread before someone says something stupid...



KittybotANI said:


> Do demographics really matter?  I don't care if you're male, female, neither, gay, straight, or a giraffe, it's a video game.  You want my perfect peaches, I'm not examining your entire identity before I trade/sell/give them to you.  I'm going to let you have the peaches.  Why should I like or dislike you for a demographic?  I reserve my dislike for people who earn it.  And not many do.  In fact no one I've met on this forum has ever seemed worthy of dislike.


My post was meant as a joke. Something like 70% of users here identify as female, so you'll be wrong 70% of the time by using he / him / his. I really don't care that you use male pronouns by default.


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## Jamborenium (Jun 20, 2015)

btw I have to say I like your username, because there's a cute virtual pet goat site with the same name <3

*/wonders if that's where you got it from but it's probably not the case/*

also guys let's not argue okay, arguing can only make things worse.​


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## KittybotANI (Jun 20, 2015)

goatling said:


> But you'll still assume they're male? I thought gender had nothing to do with it.



I'm not sitting there thinking "this person is a dude."  But if for whatever reason I have to write something involving pronouns, "he" is my mental default.  Maybe 25 is too old.  But when I grew up learning grammar in school "he" is default, and "they" is plural, and you do not use a plural to refer to a singular.  I don't mind using it if someone asks, but like I said, it rarely comes up.  It's not really a matter of trying to label someone, it's just mentally automatic.


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## goatling (Jun 20, 2015)

Zamielmon said:


> btw I have to say I like your username, because there's a cute virtual pet goat site with the same name <3
> 
> */wonders if that's where you got it from but it's probably not the case/*
> 
> also guys let's not argue okay, arguing can only make things worse.​



 It is from that website, I'm very happy you noticed!


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## KittybotANI (Jun 20, 2015)

Red Cat said:


> It's time to close this thread before someone says something stupid...
> 
> 
> My post was meant as a joke. Something like 70% of users here identify as female, so you'll be wrong 70% of the time by using he / him / his. I really don't care that you use male pronouns by default.



Yeah I'm part of that 70% or so.  Now the bit about perfect peaches just seems...yeaaaaahh....xD


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## goatling (Jun 20, 2015)

This is stressing me out too much, and I don't feel like arguing anymore. Arguing on here wasn't my intent, I simply wanted to hear from any n.b. people here.


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## KittybotANI (Jun 20, 2015)

You'll be alright.  Everybody's friendly here, so don't sweat it.  Most people won't even ask.


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## Le Ham (Jun 20, 2015)

Hi  Is it cool if I offer you a different perspective? Might be useful to know if you run into me somewhere here. 'Cause most of us you'll do fine with, but I may be a different case for you.



Spoiler



Let me just tell you right off the bat that I'm like Kittybot and I don't think as much about people's gender. Rn my sig's got a joke on it, but usually I have a warning on mine that goes something like _"If you're offended by something I say, I don't mean to harm or offend you by it"_ because of all the hate I've gotten from people in the past just for talking how I naturally do. It bothers me that I have to be sugarcoated about everything here, and often I'm not, so I have that to keep me from apologizing every second of the day for things I didn't even realize were harmful to anyone. For me, being "tolerant" in the PC sense is like walking in a minefield.

That being said, I don't know people's genders here, and when I assume, I keep it in my head, so I usually use "they/them" stuff to be safe. I'm a girl, even, and most consider me a guy. Personally, I don't really care; in fact, I let them think that, because it doesn't make a lick of difference to me unless we're talking body parts or something. And I'm not going to bother going out defending my gender like it's my life on the line, I just don't have the time, passion, or effort.

I'm not saying you should be the same, I just don't want folks to get the wrong idea. If you get set off by people like me, it might be best to avoid me altogether. :/


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## KittybotANI (Jan 9, 2022)

goatling said:


> This is stressing me out too much, and I don't feel like arguing anymore. Arguing on here wasn't my intent, I simply wanted to hear from any n.b. people here.


I am so, so sorry. I was incredibly wrong and should never have opened my mouth. You deserved better and I should have listened to you and your experiences instead of trying to stubbornly explain an unwanted opinion and digging my heels in with each reply from you and others. I was behaving in exactly the way I claimed people wouldn't and it has eaten at me for years. I'm so sorry. I truly hope life has been great for you and that stubborn *******s like I was have stayed far away.


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## King koopa (Jan 9, 2022)

Wow, this is a pretty old thread..
Anyways to answer the op's question, yes, I think this place is pretty safe for non binary people! Especially now, there are a lot of openly non binary people here, and even some of the staff is nonbinary here. There probably isn't anyone discriminatory against those people, and if they are, this definitely isn't the place for them. This site is pretty diverse in terms of people on here with LGBT+ people (including myself), and I'm pretty sure no one would be rude to you, op because you go by they/them


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## Oblivia (Jan 9, 2022)

I'm going to close this here as the OP hasn't been online in over 6 years. However, an apology is always welcome and I'm sure the OP would appreciate it.

I would hope that all of our nonbinary users feel safe here, and if for any reason they don't or are made to feel unwelcome, please let one of our staff members know so we can address the issue(s).


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