# Feminism Discussion Thread



## Ghost Soda (Aug 26, 2015)

Since there's a LGBTQ+ thread, I figured that a thread for feminism would be in order. Feel free to discuss feminism and equal rights here, just don't be trolling; feminism is about equal rights, not hating men or being superior to them.


----------



## Mega_Cabbage (Aug 26, 2015)

Eh. I think the US is fine gender-wise. I can't really complain about anything as a female.


----------



## Ghost Soda (Aug 26, 2015)

Akimari said:


> Oh no.
> 
> Ohhhh no.
> 
> Trust me, OP, this is going to get ugly. It is going to get ugly fast.



RhinoK just said that. 

Now, can we please talk about feminism now, _that's what this topic was made for, after all._



Mega_Cabbage said:


> Eh. I think the US is fine gender-wise. I can't really complain about anything as a female.



Thank you for actually staying on topic.


----------



## Akimari (Aug 26, 2015)

Ghost Soda said:


> RhinoK just said that.
> 
> Now, can we please talk about feminism now, _that's what this topic was made for, after all._
> 
> ...



And I restated it due to the fact that this is going to get quite ugly judging from how defensive and angry both sides (feminists and anti-feminists) can get. It's just a fair warning to you. 

Anything that I'd have to say about feminism would get me murdered by most radical and modern feminists as well. I think that's as far as I'll go with this topic though. For your sake OP I hope this doesn't go to crap, but... don't be shocked if it does. That's all we're saying.


----------



## RhinoK (Aug 26, 2015)

Akimari said:


> And I restated it due to the fact that this is going to get quite ugly judging from how defensive and angry both sides (feminists and anti-feminists) can get. It's just a fair warning to you.
> 
> Anything that I'd have to say about feminism would get me murdered by most radical and modern feminists as well. I think that's as far as I'll go with this topic though. For your sake OP I hope this doesn't go to crap, but... don't be shocked if it does. That's all we're saying.



Exactly this
My opinions on feminism will be butchered by extreme third wave feminists so for my own safety I'm not gonna share my views (except i probably will woops)



Ghost Soda said:


> RhinoK just said that.



Actually I said "inb4lock"


----------



## Ghost Soda (Aug 26, 2015)

Akimari said:


> And I restated it due to the fact that this is going to get quite ugly judging from how defensive and angry both sides (feminists and anti-feminists) can get. It's just a fair warning to you.
> 
> Anything that I'd have to say about feminism would get me murdered by most radical and modern feminists as well. I think that's as far as I'll go with this topic though. For your sake OP I hope this doesn't go to crap, but... don't be shocked if it does. That's all we're saying.



I know that, but LGBTQ+ debates can get ugly, yet that thread's allowed to exist.

But anyways, let's just get this thread going before you guys declare a death sentence on it.


----------



## Ichigo. (Aug 26, 2015)

Instead of assuming things will go sour, maybe it'd be better to try to get a discussion going. Let Ghost Soda live, wow.


----------



## Tao (Aug 26, 2015)

I still think 'feminists' just doesn't sound right.

For a group that's supposed to be equal rights, it's already off to a bad start since the name alone sounds like it benefits one group more than another, even if it doesn't. That (along with those who want superiority rather than equality) are probably why a lot of people just mock and ignore them.


----------



## RhinoK (Aug 26, 2015)

Ghost Soda said:


> I don't see how one thread which may or may not have been created by a troll is 'evidence'.



... How isn't it evidence? You're asking how it'll be locked, and I'm showing you what happened to another feminism thread.

- - - Post Merge - - -



aleonhart said:


> Instead of assuming things will go sour, maybe it'd be better to try to get a discussion going. Let Ghost Soda live, wow.



Yet you don't try to get a discussion going. As far as I know, they're alive, and I'm allowing them to live. Did anything suggest that I was trying to prohibit Ghost Soda from living? Or are you assuming things?



Tao said:


> I still think 'feminists' just doesn't sound right.
> 
> For a group that's supposed to be equal rights, it's already off to a bad start since the name alone sounds like it benefits one group more than another, even if it doesn't. That (along with those who want superiority rather than equality) are probably why a lot of people just mock and ignore them.



This


----------



## piichinu (Aug 26, 2015)

I'm a feminist 
I hate explaining that I'm not a man-hater, I hate explaining how radicals and extremists don't define feminism, and I hate when people (specifically 18-24 year old boys) immediately start harassing me for being a feminist and not tolerating their rape jokes and sexism toward me


----------



## DarkDesertFox (Aug 26, 2015)

RhinoK said:


> ... How isn't it evidence? You're asking how it'll be locked, and I'm showing you what happened to another feminism thread.



It's ironic the people saying the thread will go south tend to have a pattern of causing it. Two pages of nothing but saying this thread will go wrong. The other thread you showed was clearly a troll attempt while this one is serious.

On-topic, I've done a couple college essays on feminism and have even taken a class. Obviously, the media plays a prominent role in creating its own images of women. Unless the media is controlled more about how it represents women, the struggle for change will be even more difficult.


----------



## Ghost Soda (Aug 26, 2015)

aleonhart said:


> Instead of assuming things will go sour, maybe it'd be better to try to get a discussion going. Let Ghost Soda live, wow.



Thank you.



Tao said:


> I still think 'feminists' just doesn't sound right.
> 
> For a group that's supposed to be equal rights, it's already off to a bad start since the name alone sounds like it benefits one group more than another, even if it doesn't. That (along with those who want superiority rather than equality) are probably why a lot of people just mock and ignore them.



True, but I think that what the group does is more important than the name. Though I wouldn't be opposed to changing it to a more equal name. 

And I don't think it's fair to judge an entire group because of the extreme part of it.


----------



## Ichigo. (Aug 26, 2015)

RhinoK said:


> Yet you don't try to get a discussion going. As far as I know, they're alive, and I'm allowing them to live. Did anything suggest that I was trying to prohibit Ghost Soda from living? Or are you assuming things?



That defensiveness though. 

I believe in gender equality, yeah. If the literal definition of a feminist is someone who believes in equal rights for both men and women, then I am a feminist. And for the record, I do identify as a feminist.


----------



## Akimari (Aug 26, 2015)

Ghost Soda said:


> Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The thing is... the group does some really terrible things. I don't know if you want me to source all of them are not, but there are feminists out there who are far, far more concerned with promoting their feminist propaganda and inducing unfound fear in young girls in order to get them into their movement. Case in point? Google the time when a feminist took an image of a girl attacked by a kangaroo and claimed for it to be a rape. Or take a look at the 1/3 statistic when it comes to being raped. If you're a young teenage girl growing up and you hear you have a 1/3 chance of being raped, which has been disproven (along with rape culture, as stated by the RAINN), you're going to be terrified. 

Considering the fact that it's the extremists and radicals that are currently the bone of the movement and are the loudest and most prominent ones running it, I'd say it's not completely wrong to have a bad impression of feminism based on the fact that feminists have lied their way into relevance today. See: the "a woman makes 75 cents for every man's dollar". There's quite a lot. I'd recommend taking a quick google to find such sources. Not to mention, one "true" feminist out there, Christina Hoff Sommers, who very much does advocate for the equality of genders, is an older woman, and genuinely seeks out equality for men and women alike, is labeled as an anti-feminist by the majority of modern feminists due to her holding views that go against modern feminism.

So, to sum it up, the backbone of the modern day feminist movement is one filled with lots of fear-mongering, lies, and pure hatred as well. The people who have the most say and respect in the feminist movement are usually also the ones who are fulfilling and encouraging this fear-mongering, lies, and hatred. 

I'm not going to align myself up with a movement that, not only has long since served its purpose in America (and god forbid do other women in other countries need it more than us, but sadly putting on a label that I dislike won't change their situation), but is also run and led by a following of vicious teens and young adults. 

/leaves thread forever


----------



## Bowie (Aug 26, 2015)

I believe in feminism, but I don't think it should exist, necessarily. I think a group dedicated to gender equality should be the only existent group on the matter. Not all feminists are bad, of course, but why must there be a "fem" in "feminism", exactly?


----------



## Ghost Soda (Aug 26, 2015)

Bowie said:


> I believe in feminism, but I don't think it should exist, necessarily. I think a group dedicated to gender equality should be the only existent group on the matter. Not all feminists are bad, of course, but why must there be a "fem" in "feminism", exactly?



Probably because when it started, it was mostly about giving women rights. [It's still about that, I mean, but back then women probably had little to no rights.]


----------



## Bowie (Aug 26, 2015)

Ghost Soda said:


> Probably because when it started, it was mostly about giving women rights. [It's still about that, I mean, but back then women probably had little to no rights.]



Indeed. I do think that now, however, the tables have turned and women have become just as bad as men in that respect. Humanity seems to feel as if one or the other has to be in power. Humans feel the same way about gender as they do about animals almost, except animals have little to no rights at all. I thoroughly believe humans of any gender will be the next slabs of meat considered food. In fact, it already happens.


----------



## Tao (Aug 26, 2015)

Ghost Soda said:


> True, but I think that what the group does is more important than the name. Though I wouldn't be opposed to changing it to a more equal name.
> 
> And I don't think it's fair to judge an entire group because of the extreme part of it.




The name shouldn't mean anything as long as the cause is good, but it does. 

The fact that the loudest part of the group (the part everybody will notice) are also usually the people who are anti-male/female superiority focused only adds to the fact that the term 'feminist' sounds more focused towards 'pro women' than 'pro equality'.


----------



## Kuroh (Aug 26, 2015)

The purpose of feminism is equality. If someone claims that they're a feminist but literally hate men then they are not actually a feminist, they are just claiming to be one.


----------



## RhinoK (Aug 26, 2015)

Akimari said:


> The thing is... the group does some really terrible things. I don't know if you want me to source all of them are not, but there are feminists out there who are far, far more concerned with promoting their feminist propaganda and inducing unfound fear in young girls in order to get them into their movement. Case in point? Google the time when a feminist took an image of a girl attacked by a kangaroo and claimed for it to be a rape. Or take a look at the 1/3 statistic when it comes to being raped. If you're a young teenage girl growing up and you hear you have a 1/3 chance of being raped, which has been disproven (along with rape culture, as stated by the RAINN), you're going to be terrified.
> 
> Considering the fact that it's the extremists and radicals that are currently the bone of the movement and are the loudest and most prominent ones running it, I'd say it's not completely wrong to have a bad impression of feminism based on the fact that feminists have lied their way into relevance today. See: the "a woman makes 75 cents for every man's dollar". There's quite a lot. I'd recommend taking a quick google to find such sources. Not to mention, one "true" feminist out there, Christina Hoff Sommers, who very much does advocate for the equality of genders, is an older woman, and genuinely seeks out equality for men and women alike, is labeled as an anti-feminist by the majority of modern feminists due to her holding views that go against modern feminism.
> 
> ...



Pretty much this

I get attacked by some feminists for not identifying and associating myself with a group that has a bad name and are quite extreme and sexist, and apparently thst means that I don't want equality. Christina Hoff Sommers/The Factual Feminist is the only feminist I completely agree with and she's an example of what feminism should be, yet it's been hijacked by teenagers and people like Anita and 'Big Red'


----------



## MozzarellaSticks (Aug 26, 2015)

I love reading TBT opinions on social issues. It's very entertaining. You guys are so extreme, black or white.


----------



## biibii (Aug 26, 2015)

im a female and I rlly sort of don't believe in feminism bc its still like "oh im supposed to b treated like men but im going to treat them how they treat us and make them feel inferior"

if you are a feminist that can calm your bust before it combusts then I feel like you should go for it and represent women!


----------



## That Zephyr Guy (Aug 26, 2015)

Tao said:


> The name shouldn't mean anything as long as the cause is good, but it does.
> 
> The fact that the loudest part of the group (the part everybody will notice) are also usually the people who are anti-male/female superiority focused only adds to the fact that the term 'feminist' sounds more focused towards 'pro women' than 'pro equality'.



The reason the name is the way it is lies solely due to when the movement came to be in the first place.
We're talking like, industrial age.

Back then women weren't allowed to do... well... anything really. If a woman didn't get married by the ripe old age of ~25 they were barraged with insults and deemed "mentally unstable". (This, coincidentally, also happened to gay men, and men uninterested in women in general.)

Aaaand a bunch of other bad things we've all read in school, you know the things.

So they started a movement, and since the goal at the time wasn't equality for all genders, they named it feminism, which makes sense, because including men's rights in that at the time would be essentially spitting in their eyes. (This is in the same vein of people replacing Black Lives Matter with All Lives Matter, but that's a different discussion for a different thread.)

Now, as time went on, the movement continued, and so on, and really up til now the movement never really "died", per say, but it just had little bursts of action so you couldn't really put it to rest and revive it under a new name.

Now yeah, I totally agree, the name is due for a change, but there's a few issues with that:
1- It already has its connotations more or less set in stone, changing the name won't do anything.
2- People have _already_ tried changing the name like, a million times. We _have_ terms like egalitarian and such, but the names just never stick because we already have a term for it that fits the idea perfectly - it's just horrifically misused.


----------



## Bwazey (Aug 26, 2015)

Well, I guess I would consider myself a feminist. I mean, every human being should be treated equally. Despite what race, gender or sexuality they are. I don't see why people disagree on this?


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 26, 2015)

wait are we talking about tumblrina feminatzis or those 3rd wave feminists from school who only sell cookies or are we talking about actual feminism?

- - - Post Merge - - -



That Zephyr Guy said:


> 1- It already has its connotations more or less set in stone, changing the name won't do anything.



This is very much false. Right now, especially to teens, the word Feminism turns many people off simply because of the extremists out there. There are so many and with social media it spreads easily. I know it's not right that Feminism should be judged simply because of select group ruining it, but that's simply what's happened. Changing it to something other than Feminism would do wonders for it, but as you said, changing the name is a long shot.


----------



## inkling (Aug 26, 2015)

feminism won't seem to matter until you experience extremely unfair situations aka reality.


----------



## That Zephyr Guy (Aug 26, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> wait are we talking about tumblrina feminatzis or those 3rd wave feminists from school who only sell cookies or are we talking about actual feminism?
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



I don't get what you're trying to say here. It *is* very much set in stone because changing the name is a long shot.

The connotations it has a very negative - it has a man-hate banner wrapped all around it and that's what most people's first impressions of it are, that's it's connotation. I, and many other people , have already tried to change the name of both Feminism, and "Feminism" (To both egalitarianism and outright sexism respectively) and the terms don't stick because first impressions are very big on people. ("So what you're trying to tell me, is the lady who yelled at me for holding the door open for me is a feminist?" "Well that's what she calls herself." "Wow feminists are terrible." "She's actually just very prejudiced to men." "Are all feminists like that?"

And again, like with black lives matter, saying women hating men is/isn't sexism because of power differences is a different albeit similar discussion, but for simplicity sake let's say it is.


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 26, 2015)

inkling said:


> feminism won't seem to matter until you experience extremely unfair situations aka reality.



what do you mean by this?

- - - Post Merge - - -



That Zephyr Guy said:


> I don't get what you're trying to say here. It *is* very much set in stone because changing the name is a long shot.
> 
> The connotations it has a very negative - it has a man-hate banner wrapped all around it and that's what most people's first impressions of it are, that's it's connotation. I, and many other people , have already tried to change the name of both Feminism, and "Feminism" (To both egalitarianism and outright sexism respectively) and the terms don't stick because first impressions are very big on people. ("So what you're trying to tell me, is the lady who yelled at me for holding the door open for me is a feminist?" "Well that's what she calls herself." "Wow feminists are terrible." "She's actually just very prejudiced to men." "Are all feminists like that?"
> 
> And again, like with black lives matter, saying women hating men is/isn't sexism because of power differences is a different albeit similar discussion, but for simplicity sake let's say it is.



what you just said is what i was saying lol

I should have only quoted the second part, my bad


----------



## That Zephyr Guy (Aug 26, 2015)

At this point you might as well make a side thread
"The feminism discussion thread discussion thread" because wow, 90% of the posts are people throwing quips at the creation of it.


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 26, 2015)

piimisu said:


> I'm a feminist
> I hate explaining that I'm not a man-hater, I hate explaining how radicals and extremists don't define feminism, and I hate when people (specifically 18-24 year old boys) immediately start harassing me for being a feminist and not tolerating their rape jokes and sexism toward me



something ive never understood is why the heck people think rape jokes are funny


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 26, 2015)

That Zephyr Guy said:


> At this point you might as well make a side thread
> "The feminism discussion thread discussion thread" because wow, 90% of the posts are people throwing quips at the creation of it.



yeah, just report the people that are spamming or posting stupid crap


----------



## That Zephyr Guy (Aug 26, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> something ive never understood is why the heck people think rape jokes are funny



Well the thing is, the way people work is when we find an idea really atrocious, the way a lot of us cope with it is with humor.
Sometimes this backfires and only makes it worse, and this is one of those cases.


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 26, 2015)

That Zephyr Guy said:


> Well the thing is, the way people work is when we find an idea really atrocious, the way a lot of us cope with it is with humor.
> Sometimes this backfires and only makes it worse, and this is one of those cases.



I think part of the reason is because most people's personalities are of that of a follower and not a leader. The leader makes a crude joke and even if its not funny, followers want to fit in and laugh anyway.


----------



## Buggy (Aug 26, 2015)

piimisu said:


> I'm a feminist
> I hate explaining that I'm not a man-hater, I hate explaining how radicals and extremists don't define feminism, and I hate when people (specifically 18-24 year old boys) immediately start harassing me for being a feminist and not tolerating their rape jokes and sexism toward me




This.
I am too, a feminist, but that doesn't mean I argue about really stupid things, like how short the skirts are in Sailor Moon. If some girls want to dress like that, I'm not gonna complain.
I go over the moon over things that matter, such as rape. As for the lady and the kangaroo, I'll just say that the word is simply another sensitive topic mentioned so much that nobody even knows what it means anymore.
I also have to agree with DarkDesertFox, though I'm way to lazy to quote all the posts I agree with. Anywho, there was that 2014 Super Bowl burger commercial. While the typical feminist would post on the internet how much she is angered by it, I kinda laughed.
In general, I'll just say the media and the grand majority of the feminist community that doesn't stand up against important topics is going _really_ downhill.


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 26, 2015)

Buggy said:


> This.
> I am too, a feminist, but that doesn't mean I argue about really stupid things, like how short the skirts are in Sailor Moon. If some girls want to dress like that, I'm not gonna complain.
> I go over the moon over things that matter, such as rape. As for the lady and the kangaroo, I'll just say that the word is simply another sensitive topic mentioned so much that nobody even knows what it means anymore.
> I also have to agree with DarkDesertFox, though I'm way to lazy to quote all the posts I agree with. Anywho, there was that 2014 Super Bowl burger commercial. While the typical feminist would post on the internet how much she is angered by it, I kinda laughed.
> In general, I'll just say the media and the grand majority of the feminist community that doesn't stand up against important topics is going _really_ downhill.



The thing with extremists in feminism is that they constantly contradict themselves. For instance they'll say that women should be allowed to wear whatever they want because it's their own body etc. but then complain about the sexualization of cartoon characters simply because of what their wearing.


----------



## radical6 (Aug 26, 2015)

anyway, i dont align myself with the feminist movement. i share similar views, but i simply do not consider myself a feminist.


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 26, 2015)

justice said:


> im not even going to read the first page i can tell the thread has gone to ****



It actually hasn't at all, it's just people spamming that are making it unreadable.


----------



## Cam1 (Aug 26, 2015)

What I dont like is when femenists try to achieve equality by trashing men the way that women were treated in the past. Feminism is about equality, not a switch in power. Its just annoying that so many people think that they need to switch power and make men suffer what women suffered because of something that wasnt this generation's doing. Its the history of the country. As sad as it is that it happened, there isnt any need to redo history except with a flip in roles. Equality is where we are headed, and I believe that nothing else regarding social "justice" should be done except for that, whether it be racial superiority, sexual/gender superiority, or sex superiority. Equality is what should be focused on.


----------



## LaBelleFleur (Aug 26, 2015)

Keeping an eye on this - if you can't get back on topic, I'm going to have to close it.

Edit: Deleted all of the posts that were trolling/off-topic.


----------



## MozzarellaSticks (Aug 26, 2015)

My favorite part is most of this is a lot of, "I read this one really extreme feminist post on Tumblr and am basing my entire view on the movement off of that."


----------



## Buggy (Aug 26, 2015)

Cam said:


> What I dont like is when femenists try to achieve equality by trashing men the way that women were treated in the past. Feminism is about equality, not a switch in power. Its just annoying that so many people think that they need to switch power and make men suffer what women suffered because of something that wasnt this generation's doing. Its the history of the country. As sad as it is that it happened, there isnt any need to redo history except with a flip in roles. Equality is where we are headed, and I believe that nothing else regarding social "justice" should be done except for that, whether it be racial superiority, sexual/gender superiority, or sex superiority. Equality is what should be focused on.




This too, haha. A lot of super-extreme feminists do this, sometimes not knowing that they're becoming the sort of men that made women suffer. I really hate it when that happens.
Also guys, please stay on topic, it helps keep the thread clean! Just because the last feminist thread ended up in flames doesn't mean we can't learn from our mistakes and improve this one. ^.^


----------



## radical6 (Aug 26, 2015)

theres nothing wrong with the name anyway - but feminism is just too broad for me anymore. i tend to focus on more serious issues rather than what american feminists care about. i mean, i dont disprove of their actions. i just..dont really care that much. like i dont give a **** about #freethenipple. i think its useless and a waste of time. i dont think they realize that no one is really taking that movement seriously.

i have a problem with sex positive feminism. i dont want to see your nipples, i dont care about your slutwalks. do whatever you want with your sex life. sex repulses me, and its no different than people celebrating bdsm in public. i dont care about your body. 

then theres of course TWERFs (trans women exclusionary radical feminists). the argument liberal feminists like to make is "they're not truly feminists!" when that does nothing. you do nothing to stop these TWERFs. they actively hurt trans women and make it harder for trans women to even join female spaces.

so in all, i dont consider myself a feminist anymore. it has gotten too liberal. im rather annoyed liberal feminists praise saudi arabias government because it now allows women to vote. voting will not change anything. its a us backed monarchy. you think voting will do anything?

i dont think liberal feminists care for people like me. for victims like me. they care too much about their label and the stigma of being called a "feminist". my trauma is not an argument for you to use. i despise most liberal feminists, for they only care about themselves. 

i do think men are more privileged in society (on which society, is another topic). i am distrustful of most men because of my trauma in my life, but i dont hate men. of course this gets me grouped in with liberal feminists who buy male tear cups. 

i dont like their male tear jokes. i wonder if these women truly understand why im the way i am today. if they truly care about women being abused and raped. every liberal feminist i see is white, cis, and not doing anything to help people like me. or trans women.

so, yeah. those are my thoughts


----------



## piichinu (Aug 26, 2015)

Also on the topic of its name -
Why does it need to be changed lol? It's still about getting equal rights for women. Stop basing everything on the USA (altho there's still some sexism here). 
Idk it sounds kinda butthurt when people complain about tht

- - - Post Merge - - -



ApolloJusticeAC said:


> true



Contribute to the discussion instead of trying to start a flame war or leave please


----------



## LethalLulu (Aug 26, 2015)

I actually just came across a very valid post on tumblr about this.  I am going to share it, but I'm just saying rape trigger warning now.
http://not-quite-witty-whovian.tumblr.com/post/127670218272/child-of-the-univerrse-what-triggers-my-anger.

Gotten from a random blog that looked easy to read.


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 26, 2015)

piimisu said:


> Also on the topic of its name -
> Why does it need to be changed lol? It's still about getting equal rights for women. Stop basing everything on the USA (altho there's still some sexism here).
> Idk it sounds kinda butthurt when people complain about tht



People think it should be changed because it has negative connotations, that's pretty much it.


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 26, 2015)

I also think that a lot of Feminism in NA has turned into a bit of a joke because it only focuses on "1st world problems". I don't often see Feminists trying to help people in 3rd world countries etc where they actually need a lot of help and sexism is the norm.


----------



## Buggy (Aug 26, 2015)

justice said:


> theres nothing wrong with the name anyway - but feminism is just too broad for me anymore. i tend to focus on more serious issues rather than what american feminists care about. i mean, i dont disprove of their actions. i just..dont really care that much. like i dont give a **** about #freethenipple. i think its useless and a waste of time. i dont think they realize that no one is really taking that movement seriously.
> 
> i have a problem with sex positive feminism. i dont want to see your nipples, i dont care about your slutwalks. do whatever you want with your sex life. sex repulses me, and its no different than people celebrating bdsm in public. i dont care about your body.
> 
> ...




I'm so museless and tired right now I can't even explain how much I agree with this. I still somewhat consider myself a feminist, though.


----------



## piichinu (Aug 26, 2015)

LethalLulu said:


> I actually just came across a very valid post on tumblr about this.  I am going to share it, but I'm just saying rape trigger warning now.
> http://not-quite-witty-whovian.tumblr.com/post/127670218272/child-of-the-univerrse-what-triggers-my-anger.
> 
> Gotten from a random blog that looked easy to read.


I saw this post, it's one of my faves and I couldn't find it again. People should read it


----------



## That Zephyr Guy (Aug 26, 2015)

There generally seems to be a sort of consensus among most people who at one point would consider themselves a feminist:
Either you call yourself a feminist and are trying to reclaim the word, or you don't like what it's become and are trying to make a new better one.


----------



## MozzarellaSticks (Aug 26, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> I also think that a lot of Feminism in NA has turned into a bit of a joke because it only focuses on "1st world problems". I don't often see Feminists trying to help people in 3rd world countries etc where they actually need a lot of help and sexism is the norm.


How dare people focus on problems that directly affect them instead of someone who has it worse off! Don't they know how good they have it!?


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 26, 2015)

hariolari said:


> How dare people focus on problems that directly affect them instead of someone who has it worse off! Don't they know how good they have it!?



I think it's good to focus on problems in NA but it's become giant pity party for people who have it really good.


----------



## Buggy (Aug 26, 2015)

I've read many articles on discrimination by gender in lots of countries other than the NA, UK, Australia, etc. It's very depressing and I think a lot of feminists in our areas of the world should step in and help.


----------



## kayleee (Aug 26, 2015)

I'd call myself a feminist but yeah I hate the image radical feminists give the word "feminist." 
But basically if you want equality between genders you're a feminist, if you don't you're an *******. People are just scared of the term feminist and it kind of sucks that feminist radicals ruin what is supposed to be a positive thing by making it seem like feminists are just men-hating psychos. 

That being said, there's a lot inherently wrong with the average/stereotypical male's attitude towards women. Not because they choose to be that way, but because they are taught by media/etc. from an extremely young age that women are basically objects. Like why is a Victoria's Secret catalog so male oriented if it's purpose is to sell me, a woman, a bra. We live in a male dominated society, and the only way that can be remedied is if everyone is on board for equality which is a lot easier said than done unfortunately. But yeah I'm a feminist because I can't tell you how much it pisses me off that a bunch of highschool boys can gang rape a girl and basically get away with it


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 26, 2015)

kayleee said:


> I'd call myself a feminist but yeah I hate the image radical feminists give the word "feminist."
> But basically if you want equality between genders you're a feminist, if you don't you're an *******. People are just scared of the term feminist and it kind of sucks that feminist radicals ruin what is supposed to be a positive thing by making it seem like feminists are just men-hating psychos.
> 
> That being said, there's a lot inherently wrong with the average/stereotypical male's attitude towards women. Not because they choose to be that way, but because they are taught by media/etc. that women are basically objects from an extremely young age. We live in a male dominated society, and the only way that can be remedied is if everyone is on board for equality which is a lot easier said than done unfortunately. But yeah I'm a feminist because I can't tell you how much it pisses me off that a bunch of highschool boys can gang rape a girl and basically get away with it



I only partially agree that men grow up seeing women as objects. It completely depends on what kind of things your parents let you watch and see etc. and also what your parents are teaching you.

For instance when I watched Arthur the Aardvark, JJ the Jet Plane, The Weekenders, etc. as a kid, they never told me to objectify women or that they're lesser than men.


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 26, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> I also think that a lot of Feminism in NA has turned into a bit of a joke because it only focuses on "1st world problems". I don't often see Feminists trying to help people in 3rd world countries etc where they actually need a lot of help and sexism is the norm.



that's true, but the people who complain about it aren't helping either, and are generally just making things worse by erasing the problems of women in first world countries. first world women undeniably do face problems, and many of them could be solved with enough support. on the other hand there isn't much we can do for people in third world countries aside from donating money.


----------



## Jamborenium (Aug 26, 2015)

I'm just going to post this
http://check-your-privilege-feminists.tumblr.com/


----------



## radical6 (Aug 26, 2015)

i do not hate feminism, but i find the mainstream feminism today is annoying. i dislike how they only focus on themselves. they say third wave feminism now extends to women of color and the poor, but is that really true?

the same liberal feminists who say porn is evil, what are you doing to help sex workers? you wish to ban sex work? fine, you want to ban it, then provide a living to the sex workers who will be out of a job. they care so much about a girls freedom to have sex as much as she wants without getting called a slut, but do you care about sex workers at all?

feminism is not bad, and it has impacted the world today. i do not hate it, but im simply too depressed to care anymore. 

when i was younger, i looked up to it. i thought it cared for people like me. for victims like me. perhaps i have just gotten more depressed overtime, but i feel like they dont actually care.

these liberal feminists say to stop sexualizing women, while their whole blog is east asian schoolgirls. their whole blog is creepshots of east asian schoolgirls, and pictures of their thighs and panties. tell me, how is that not fetishizing us? people like me? tell me how yellow fever didnt contribute to my trauma. 

then we have the other feminists, who are totally sex positive. just sharing their sex life in public. they dont care for victims of sexual abuse who dont agree. they dont care. they only care for themselves. consent is not sexy. do not make consent into a joke. i do not want to hear your stupid slogans about rape. "consent is sexy! always ask for it!" 

and then for the poor. i wonder really, why are you dropping 20 dollars on a mug that says male tears? if anything, its most likely a man making profit from you. they do nothing to help the poor. they do nothing to help people like me. they say "dont be classist! dont be mean to the poor!" but tell me, how does that help? what are you doing to help?

i simply do not care about it anymore. they want to help 1st world women? then they can do it. starting with women of color, the poor, and sex workers. trans women as well. they all live in this country too.

to be truthful, no one really cares about your sex life. of course its a different matter if your nudes are leaked or something, because that is actively harmful. but.. theres so much more things going on. and youre just upset because youre called a slut for having sex. i get it hurts, but.. i feel like mainstream feminism cares too much about the stupidest of things. 

and if i find a liberal feminist who isnt all of the above, what do they say to me? they say feminists like that arent really feminists. but when have i seen any liberal feminist ever argue against these women? never. 

feminism is not bad, as i will say again. but it is far from perfect. i know many feminists who focus on sex workers rights, trans women, woc, etc.. but they never get the time of day. the media only focuses on movements like #freethenipple.

its funny, i know a few feminists on here who fit everything ive said. they only cared because they get called a slut. and of course, theyre a cis straight white rich woman. ive seen them excuse their friends who make racist comments. they say nothing. but the moment someone calls them a slut? they get mad and suddenly act like they really care for womens rights.

its just sad for me to see the movement has been stolen by women who care for no one but themselves.


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 26, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> that's true, but the people who complain about it aren't helping either, and are generally just making things worse by erasing the problems of women in first world countries. first world women undeniably do face problems, and many of them could be solved with enough support. on the other hand there isn't much we can do for people in third world countries aside from donating money.



I sort of agree. Another thing is that there are women who simply don't feel oppressed or that their treated badly because of their sex, and then there are women who have it really bad.


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 26, 2015)

forgot who mentioned this, but what's wrong with TERFs? as far as I know they're just saying that there are no differences between male and female brains, so it's impossible for people to have been born in the wrong bodies, and that if gender norms were eliminated, dysmorphic (idk how to spell) people would not need to transition to fit in. so basically transitioning is only a short term fix to a long term problem


----------



## kayleee (Aug 26, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> I only partially agree that men grow up seeing women as objects. It completely depends on what kind of things your parents let you watch and see etc. and also what your parents are teaching you.
> 
> For instance when I watched Arthur the Aardvark, JJ the Jet Plane, The Weekenders, etc. as a kid, they never told me to objectify women or that they're lesser than men.


Society is male dominated, centered, and oriented. The fact that little boys are excused for picking on girls because they "like" them and little girls are told that they shouldn't be upset by a boy being mean because he has a crush on her is a problem. the fact that all superhero movies show the hero "claiming" the girl. Like just because it wasn't in those few shows you personally watched doesn't mean the objectivity of women isn't surrounding everyone all the time every day, even if you aren't blatantly aware of it


----------



## radical6 (Aug 26, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> forgot who mentioned this, but what's wrong with TERFs? as far as I know they're just saying that there are no differences between male and female brains, so it's impossible for people to have been born in the wrong bodies, and that if gender norms were eliminated, dysmorphic (idk how to spell) people would not need to transition to fit in. so basically transitioning is only a short term fix to a long term problem



terfs actively exclude trans women
from
women spaces

im dysphoric. im trans. im not a trans woman however, but i do not want to see trans women kicked out of women spaces. they belong. TERFs actively exclude them. TERFs help pass laws making it harder for trans women to transition.

out of all feminists, TERFs are the most dangerous. everything is wrong with them.


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 26, 2015)

kayleee said:


> Society is male dominated, centered, and oriented. The fact that little boys are excused for picking on girls because they "like" them and little girls are told that they shouldn't be upset by a boy being mean because he has a crush on her is a problem. the fact that all superhero movies show the hero "claiming" the girl. Like just because it wasn't in those few shows you personally watched doesn't mean the objectivity of women isn't surrounding everyone all the time every day, even if you aren't blatantly aware of it



That's weird, when I was a kid it was the opposite. Generally people always talked about how girls would hit boys because it meant they liked them etc. I've never heard about the boys hitting girls thing. I'm not sure why either would ever be condoned by parents... Like you don't just let your kid hit people...


----------



## kayleee (Aug 26, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> That's weird, when I was a kid it was the opposite. Generally people always talked about how girls would hit boys because it meant they liked them etc. I've never heard about the boys hitting girls thing. I'm not sure why either would ever be condoned by parents... Like you don't just let your kid hit people...



Um I never said hitting, I said picking on / being mean to them. I'm surprised you've never heard of that, are you perhaps not a female


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 26, 2015)

kayleee said:


> Um I never said hitting, I said picking on / being mean to them. I'm surprised you've never heard of that, are you perhaps not a female



My bad, but either way if you replace hitting with picking people my opinion still stands that it shouldn't be done.

And yeah I'm not female but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.


----------



## 3skulls (Aug 26, 2015)

I don't believe in feminism. I believe Equality no matter gender or race OR religion. Feminism is thrown around has hate against man.


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 26, 2015)

justice said:


> terfs actively exclude trans women
> from
> women spaces
> 
> ...



well the reason they are women's spaces is because they are for women. i think it's wrong for pre-transitioned people to use bathrooms and changerooms for the gender they're going to transition into, because the rooms are segregated based on bodies, not personalities or feelings.


----------



## kayleee (Aug 26, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> My bad, but either way if you replace hitting with picking people my opinion still stands that it shouldn't be done.
> 
> And yeah I'm not female but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.



Because as a female that's all I ever would hear when boys would pick on me in like elementary school. Like oh, but that means he likes you! If I would come home crying or something. So I just think it's interesting that you heard the opposite so I was just curious if you were a male. So it kind of has to do with something


----------



## piichinu (Aug 26, 2015)

3skulls said:


> I don't believe in feminism. I believe Equality no matter gender or race OR religion. Feminism is thrown around has hate against man.



fem?i?nism
ˈfeməˌnizəm/
noun
the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

??


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 26, 2015)

@ashtot/kayleee i think point is it goes both ways and is wrong for boys AND girls


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 26, 2015)

piimisu said:


> fem?i?nism
> ˈfeməˌnizəm/
> noun
> the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.
> ...



He just means that he doesn't like to be associated with the term Feminism because it has negative connotations.


----------



## 3skulls (Aug 26, 2015)

I am not ignorant i know the meaning but thanks for reminding me. My point is I don't think they should be groups specified in a certain equality group. As stated I believe equality is equality.


----------



## kayleee (Aug 26, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> @ashtot/kayleee i think point is it goes both ways and is wrong for boys AND girls



Well yeah there's no denying that I was just using that as an example to support my statement


----------



## kayleee (Aug 26, 2015)

Oops double post


----------



## piichinu (Aug 26, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> He just means that he doesn't like to be associated with the term Feminism because it has negative connotations.



Yeah I guess I understood what he said differently


----------



## Jamborenium (Aug 26, 2015)

kayleee said:


> Because as a female that's all I ever would hear when boys would pick on me in like elementary school. Like oh, but that means he likes you! If I would come home crying or something. So I just think it's interesting that you heard the opposite so I was just curious if you were a male. So it kind of has to do with something



lol I was never told that if a boy picks on you it means he likes you, I was told if a boy is picking on he is being an a55hole and I should just ignore them and if they don't stop tell an adult ((though a lot of times I just choose to punch them or push them down))​


----------



## piichinu (Aug 26, 2015)

Anyway this is kinda what I meant when I said I was sick of explaining that I'm not a man hater to every single person and having to justify myself just because of some extremists

- - - Post Merge - - -



Nebudelic said:


> lol I was never told that if a boy picks on you it means he likes you, I was told if a boy is picking on he is being an a55hole and I should just ignore them and if they don't stop tell an adult ((though a lot of times I just choose to punch them or push them down))​



When u tell an adult: "boys will be boys"

- - - Post Merge - - -



Nebudelic said:


> lol I was never told that if a boy picks on you it means he likes you, I was told if a boy is picking on he is being an a55hole and I should just ignore them and if they don't stop tell an adult ((though a lot of times I just choose to punch them or push them down))​



When u tell an adult: "boys will be boys"


----------



## Buggy (Aug 26, 2015)

Okay, here are my thoughts now that I have gotten enough research~
TWERFs don't really do anything important, and their movements are trash. The fact that TERFs exclude transwomen is terrible, and I cannot believe I hadn't known it. The male tear thing is also pretty stupid, along with the extremists practically ruining the feminist community. All they think of is themselves and "revenge" on men for treating them the way they had back then. It's the past. Now the next thing we know the world with be female-dominated and there's going to be some huge radical psychopath feminist in control of us all.
Today, now that a lot of decent people are gone, the feminist group has gotten out of hand. Yes, we live in a male-dominated community, but our goal is to create equality with all genders within all religions and borders along with the ending of sexual abuse, not to have orginally born females rule the Earth and run naked with men as our slaves.
That's just my odd little opinion.


----------



## Buggy (Aug 26, 2015)

Double post nuu


----------



## Jamborenium (Aug 26, 2015)

piimisu said:


> When u tell an adult: "boys will be boys"



once again I was never told that when growing up :I 
you must have lived around some sh!t adults​


----------



## piichinu (Aug 26, 2015)

Nebudelic said:


> once again I was never told that when growing up :I
> you must have lived around some sh!t adults​



It happened to girls around me and it mainly came from teachers and soccer moms


----------



## MozzarellaSticks (Aug 26, 2015)

Nebudelic said:


> once again I was never told that when growing up :I
> you must have lived around some sh!t adults​


This is seriously a common and well known thing. Didn't happen to you =/= doesn't happen.


----------



## Jamborenium (Aug 26, 2015)

piimisu said:


> It happened to girls around me and it mainly came from teachers and soccer moms


oh I see, TBH  I feel bad for young girls who heard adults say that to them, cause some can end up growing up to think it's okay for a guy to be a jerk to them because "oh he just likes you" and that is not okay adults need to really stop using that logic​


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 26, 2015)

invisible post fix


----------



## radical6 (Aug 26, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> well the reason they are women's spaces is because they are for women. i think it's wrong for pre-transitioned people to use bathrooms and changerooms for the gender they're going to transition into, because the rooms are segregated based on bodies, not personalities or feelings.



um
lol
you think a trans woman should be forced to use a mans room then? even if they pass as a woman? do you understand how dangerous that is?

are you even trans? trans women are so likely to get harassed and a lot die. if you align yourself with TERFs then please get away from me. im fine with anyone else, but terfs are the one type of people i will never accept.

trans women ARE women and belong in women spaces. saying theyre not implies you dont think theyre women.


----------



## Jamborenium (Aug 26, 2015)

hariolari said:


> This is seriously a common and well known thing. Didn't happen to you =/= doesn't happen.



yes I am quite aware of that thank you very much for your glorious input I will make sure to write it down in my notebook for future references thank you so much for telling me something that I already know, I was just referring to my own experiences and how I was taught I didn't say it doesn't happen I just said it never happened to me.​


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 26, 2015)

hariolari said:


> This is seriously a common and well known thing. Didn't happen to you =/= doesn't happen.



I don't think they were saying that it doesn't happen, just that it didn't happen to them.


----------



## MozzarellaSticks (Aug 26, 2015)

Nebudelic said:


> yes I am quite aware of that thank you very much for your glorious input I will make sure to write it down in my notebook for future references thank you so much for telling me something that I already know, I was just referring to my own experiences and how I was taught I didn't say it doesn't happen I just said it never happened to me.​


I took what you said wrong, but you implied it when you said adults who said it had to be horrible adults. Sorry.

Speaking of, that's pretty damaging to say. When people are raised in a society that sees things a certain way it doesn't make them horrible. What makes hem horrible is when they refuse to learn.


----------



## TarzanGirl (Aug 26, 2015)

What the heck are terfs? This looks like it is turning into another LBTGQT thread.


----------



## That Zephyr Guy (Aug 26, 2015)

justice said:


> um
> lol
> you think a trans woman should be forced to use a mans room then? even if they pass as a woman? do you understand how dangerous that is?
> 
> ...




As much as I disagree with them, I can see where they're coming from.
When someone traditionally thinks of bathroom's purpose, it's generally for privacy while going to the bathroom, otherwise stalls would be a lot weirder and people would be like "Sup" on the urinal next to you.

So with that in mind, when a pre-transition (if they even do) trans man enters the mens room, it could result in people doing some really disgusting things.

These are things they _shouldn't_ do and it shouldn't limit which bathrooms people go to, but it's probably one of the reasons a lot of people have this opinion.


----------



## Jamborenium (Aug 26, 2015)

- - - Post Merge - - -



hariolari said:


> I took what you said wrong, but you implied it when you said adults who said it had to be horrible adults. Sorry.
> 
> Speaking of, that's pretty damaging to say. When people are raised in a society that sees things a certain way it doesn't make them horrible. What makes hem horrible is when they refuse to learn.



okay so they aren't horrible adults I should have said instead it's just bad for them to tell little girls that.
and that goes for saying that "boys don't cry"​


----------



## radical6 (Aug 26, 2015)

That Zephyr Guy said:


> As much as I disagree with them, I can see where they're coming from.
> When someone traditionally thinks of bathroom's purpose, it's generally for privacy while going to the bathroom, otherwise stalls would be a lot weirder and people would be like "Sup" on the urinal next to you.
> 
> So with that in mind, when a pre-transition (if they even do) trans man enters the mens room, it could result in people doing some really disgusting things.
> ...



the thing is, there has never been a case where a trans women harassed a cis woman in the bathroom. most the time its the cis women harassing the trans women. 

its like the same argument for lesbians in locker rooms. should we ban lesbians from girls locker rooms bc they might do something?? no. if theyre sent to the boys locker room when theyre a girl, they will be harassed. its the same for trans women. 

that thinking is so dangerous for trans women and it makes me upset its like apart of peoples feminism. that people actually think its okay to exclude trans women.

i know this persons like 13 or whatever, and dont know much about politics, but that thinking is so harmful.


----------



## MozzarellaSticks (Aug 26, 2015)

Nebudelic said:


> okay so they aren't horrible adults I should have said that instead it's just bad for them to tell little girls that.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...


It does. I think what most people don't realize is that when you fight one, you fight the other. When people fight gender stereotypes they fight ALL the stereotypes.by deconstructing one you also deconstruct the other. It's baby steps. You can't change things perfectly overnight. You have to start somewhere at some point. Neither is right, and focusing on one helps both. They're linked problems, basically.


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 26, 2015)

justice said:


> um
> lol
> you think a trans woman should be forced to use a mans room then? even if they pass as a woman? do you understand how dangerous that is?
> 
> ...



yeah, i don't think they're women. woman means a female person, not a person who likes stereotypically feminine things. in an ideal world, men (male people) who like things we consider feminine today would not be treated so badly that they are forced to identify as women.

objects and interests are not gendered, and behavior does not determine a person's gender. that is determined by their genitals. people of each gender should be treated the exact same because there is not such thing as a male brain and a female brain. transitioning literally reinforces gender roles.

and allowing transwomen to use women's rooms is also extremely dangerous, since you can't police it without being "transphobic". 

no i am not trans. obviously people who don't think it is possible to be trans are not trans


----------



## That Zephyr Guy (Aug 26, 2015)

justice said:


> the thing is, there has never been a case where a trans women harassed a cis woman in the bathroom. most the time its the cis women harassing the trans women.
> 
> its like the same argument for lesbians in locker rooms. should we ban lesbians from girls locker rooms bc they might do something?? no. if theyre sent to the boys locker room when theyre a girl, they will be harassed. its the same for trans women.
> 
> ...



I think you're looking at it backwards.

Look at this scenario: A trans man enters the mens bathroom. Men in said bathroom don't know/care if they're trans, what they see is a girl in the men's bathroom. Peeping ensues.

It's probably not so much for the cis people's safety as much as it is the trans person's safety, it's just sad that such a scenario is probably very likely to happen and people feel the need to impede other people's freedom based on what other people will do to wrong them.


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 26, 2015)

justice said:


> the thing is, there has never been a case where a trans women harassed a cis woman in the bathroom. most the time its the cis women harassing the trans women.
> 
> its like the same argument for lesbians in locker rooms. should we ban lesbians from girls locker rooms bc they might do something?? no. if theyre sent to the boys locker room when theyre a girl, they will be harassed. its the same for trans women.
> 
> ...



a male using a female bathroom is inherently harassment. if a male with a beard walks into a female bathroom, how are they supposed to know whether or not he's trans? and what if he's cis but lies?

i never said lesbians should have to use the boy's locker room. in line with what i've been saying, they should use the female locker room because they're females

if i identify as transblack can i paint my skin black and get lip surgery and go to events that were specifically made for only black people? of course not, that would be terrible and offensive. just like transwomen.

i actually do know a lot about politics, unless by "politics" you mean blindly agreeing with the popular tumblr opinions for everything. (btw you're also "like 13")


----------



## That Zephyr Guy (Aug 26, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> a male using a female bathroom is inherently harassment. if a male with a beard walks into a female bathroom, how are they supposed to know whether or not he's trans? and what if he's cis but lies?
> 
> i never said lesbians should have to use the boy's locker room. in line with what i've been saying, they should use the female locker room because they're females
> 
> ...




There's an astronomical difference between a legitimate medical/mental condition and painting yourself black.
Just because something has something to do with LGBTQ+ opinions doesn't automatically mean it's a tumblr thing. Ruling it out just because of that is a very bad way to go about looking at anything.

Open your mind a little, there's a lot in this world to learn.


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 26, 2015)

That Zephyr Guy said:


> There's an astronomical difference between a legitimate medical/mental condition and painting yourself black.
> Just because something has something to do with LGBTQ+ opinions doesn't automatically mean it's a tumblr thing. Ruling it out just because of that is a very bad way to go about looking at anything.
> 
> Open your mind a little, there's a lot in this world to learn.



- physical differences between races
- physical differences between genders

- no mental differences between races
- no mental differences between genders

i'm not trying to troll you or anything. i legitimately don't understand why one is evil and the other is perfectly fine. i will NOT blindly agree with you until you tell me the difference.

the gender dysphoria medical condition is basically thinking you should have x body part instead y body part. race dysphoria would be thinking you should have x feature instead of y feature.

i used to support trans people, until i "opened my eyes" and realized it was all fake. look it up. studies have shown that male and female brains have NO DIFFERENCES. i would appreciate it if you guys actually read what i'm saying instead of dismissing it as stupid, baseless bs because you disagree.


----------



## piichinu (Aug 26, 2015)

So um
Does anyone else get annoyed when people say or act like "they're not like other girls"
It seems like some girls feel superior due to their interests and it's a bit bothersome to me


----------



## That Zephyr Guy (Aug 26, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> - physical differences between races
> - physical differences between genders
> 
> - no mental differences between races
> ...



_Takes a really deep breath_

Okay this is a lot to tackle so let me take this slowly.

For one, let's get this out of the way, there's no such thing as race dysphoria. That's not a thing. That's something that even people on _tumblr_ make fun of.

Gender dysphoria, is not only a medically proven thing, it's an actual, literal issue with a person's brain that makes them have feelings of panic, dissociation, and *severe* depression because they don't actually recognize themselves when they look in the mirror.

It's actually incredibly insulting of you to assume that people are "faking" it, because I want you to ask yourself truly and honestly, why would someone do that?

Why would someone risk their life over something fake?
Why would someone get kicked out of their house over something fake?



piimisu said:


> So um
> Does anyone else get annoyed when people say or act like "they're not like other girls"
> It seems like some girls feel superior due to their interests and it's a bit bothersome to me



It always bugs me when people use others as stepping stones to make themselves look better.
Especially since saying "I'm not like other girls" implies that acting like a girl is an inherently negative trait.


----------



## Ichigo. (Aug 26, 2015)

piimisu said:


> So um
> Does anyone else get annoyed when people say or act like "they're not like other girls"
> It seems like some girls feel superior due to their interests and it's a bit bothersome to me



Yesss. I've seen it multiple times on this forum and it's just so ridiculous? Special snowflake syndrome. Or when they say things like, "I like hanging out with guys better because girls cause too much drama." I was like that when I was 13. Safe to say I feel really stupid for ever saying something like that.


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 26, 2015)

That Zephyr Guy said:


> _Takes a really deep breath_
> 
> Okay this is a lot to tackle so let me take this slowly.
> 
> ...



WHY is race dysphoria fake? because the popular opinion is that it is fake? really, that's all you've said. gender dysphoria is real "because they don't actually recognize themselves when they look in the mirror"? that can literally also describe race dysphoria.

there are people out there (not a lot, but they DO exist) that believe they were "meant" to have disabilities and try to live life as disabled people would, by using wheelchairs and crutches and stuff. what about them? what is the KEY DIFFERENCE between transgenders and transracials/transdisabled people? don't just tell me i'm wrong and leave it at that. explain, because i actually don't understand.

why would someone identify as transgender? i think that's actually pretty simple -- they don't fit their gender's norm, and tons of people are supporting transitioning as the solution. because they are being told that it's right, they are willing to give up their friendships and families, because they really and truly believe that it is what they must do. but just because someone believes something does not mean they are right.


----------



## Aesthetic (Aug 26, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> WHY is race dysphoria fake? because the popular opinion is that it is fake? really, that's all you've said. gender dysphoria is real "because they don't actually recognize themselves when they look in the mirror"? that can literally also describe race dysphoria.
> 
> there are people out there (not a lot, but they DO exist) that believe they were "meant" to have disabilities and try to live life as disabled people would, by using wheelchairs and crutches and stuff. what about them? what is the KEY DIFFERENCE between transgenders and transracials/transdisabled people? don't just tell me i'm wrong and leave it at that. explain, because i actually don't understand.
> 
> why would someone identify as transgender? i think that's actually pretty simple -- they don't fit their gender's norm, and tons of people are supporting transitioning as the solution. because they are being told that it's right, they are willing to give up their friendships and families, because they really and truly believe that it is what they must do. but just because someone believes something does not mean they are right.



listen.. sweaty (
the transracial thing is stupid because "A person of color will NEVER be seen as a white person. Certainly, there are light skinned people of color. But regardless, no person of color will ever receive the true benefits of white privileges. " thank you

gender is a social construct. why is xx considered female and xy considered male? what about those with other combinations of chromosomes?


----------



## radical6 (Aug 26, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> yeah, i don't think they're women. woman means a female person, not a person who likes stereotypically feminine things. in an ideal world, men (male people) who like things we consider feminine today would not be treated so badly that they are forced to identify as women.
> 
> objects and interests are not gendered, and behavior does not determine a person's gender. that is determined by their genitals. people of each gender should be treated the exact same because there is not such thing as a male brain and a female brain. transitioning literally reinforces gender roles.
> 
> ...



Wow. You are disgusting honestly. I thought you were better, but I'm not even going to bother. 

Trans women are women. They identify as women. They face misogyny just like cis women. To say they're not women is disgusting to me. 

I think one of your friends is a trans girl? God, I'm sure to tell her to not interact with you. I have been annoyed with various people on this forum, but you are by far the most ignorant. 

Do you realize how often trans women are killed? For being who they are? 

You know nothing about trans people. You know nothing about my dysphoria. I was assigned female at birth, yes, but that doesn't make me any more of a woman than a trans woman. 

You are reducing gender to body parts. This is not the same as putting on blackface. 

I guess my dysphoria isn't real then. I guess how much I wish to rip off my breasts isn't real. 

Tell me how you do anything for women when you kick trans women out? You're 13, so I'm trying to be as nice as I can, but this is appalling for me to see you say this. 

Your feminism is toxic. You are the worst type of feminists honestly. 

Trans women can be killed. They face high rates of violence and suicide. They deserve all the support they need. But people like you make it harder for them to survive.

I hate TERFs. Plain and simple. They don't give a **** about intersex people either.


----------



## kayleee (Aug 26, 2015)

piimisu said:


> So um
> Does anyone else get annoyed when people say or act like "they're not like other girls"
> It seems like some girls feel superior due to their interests and it's a bit bothersome to me



Because being seen as having "girly" characteristics is negative. Being a girl is considered a negative thing. That's why girls say they "aren't like other girls" because even girls don't want to be seen as girls. That's why "you're being a girl" is so immasculsting and offensive to men/boys

It's ridiculous and girls are being ridiculed for not wanting to be seen as the stereotypical girl it's crazy

At this point it's like girls can't do anything right anything they do is viewed negatively honestly its so sad society has so much hate for girls, especially teenage girls


----------



## That Zephyr Guy (Aug 26, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> WHY is race dysphoria fake? because the popular opinion is that it is fake? really, that's all you've said. gender dysphoria is real "because they don't actually recognize themselves when they look in the mirror"? that can literally also describe race dysphoria.






			
				What I literally said:
			
		

> Gender dysphoria, is not only a *medically proven thing*, it's an actual, literal issue with a person's brain that makes them have feelings of panic, dissociation, and severe depression because they don't actually recognize themselves when they look in the mirror.



You haven't been reading have you?


----------



## Jamborenium (Aug 26, 2015)

piimisu said:


> So um
> Does anyone else get annoyed when people say or act like "they're not like other girls"
> It seems like some girls feel superior due to their interests and it's a bit bothersome to me



/Slowly raises hand/​


----------



## Beardo (Aug 26, 2015)

I knew this thread was gonna go downhill fast....

My thoughts:
Women should be equal to men
Trans women are women (it's in the name)
If someone identifies as a woman, they are, indeed, a woman. Even if they have a penis still.


----------



## radical6 (Aug 26, 2015)

That Zephyr Guy said:


> You haven't been reading have you?



Don't bother honestly. TERFs don't care and never will. They seek only to harm trans women. I'm done honestly, I can tolerate people like Karla or Trundle but this? Even those two never said **** like this. 

I'm probably going to get a warning for being mean. Whatever. I'm just disgusted how a child already ate up the toxic **** TERFs spew out.


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 26, 2015)

Aesthetic said:


> listen.. sweaty (
> the transracial thing is stupid because "A person of color will NEVER be seen as a white person. Certainly, there are light skinned people of color. But regardless, no person of color will ever receive the true benefits of white privileges. " thank you
> 
> gender is a social construct. why is xx considered female and xy considered male? what about those with other combinations of chromosomes?



wait, what? so they're invalid because they won't be accepted? does that mean trans people who don't pass and theoretical trans people who weren't around when transitioning became available are fake too? i am not advocating for transracial people, i legitimately have no idea what you're saying

white text: ??? people with other chromosome combinations are intersex, and should be the exact same as male and female people. i don't get why you think i'd think otherwise. i have been saying that gender is a social construct, and that is why people can't be trans. they just have personalities.

- - - Post Merge - - -



justice said:


> Wow. You are disgusting honestly. I thought you were better, but I'm not even going to bother.
> 
> Trans women are women. They identify as women. They face misogyny just like cis women. To say they're not women is disgusting to me.
> 
> ...



it sucks that you are dysphoric, but ripping off your breasts is not the answer. some people want to rip off their limbs, but doctors do not actually let them amputate their limbs because that's just not the right solution. i don't know how you feel, but i sympathize with you like i sympathize with other people who have medical conditions.

GENDER IS LITERALLY BODY PARTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it should only be used for medical stuff, and people of both genders should be treated the exact same (no male/female marketing). interests are a part of people's PERSONALITIES, not their genders. that is like saying only people with blond hair can like cats, and anyone else who likes cats must be transblond. both exist, but they are 100% unrelated.

violence against trans people (or anyone else) is never justified. i am saying that i do not agree with people identifying as trans, not that i want to kill them.

- - - Post Merge - - -



That Zephyr Guy said:


> You haven't been reading have you?



gender dysphoria is real. people can hate their bodies due to their gendered characteristics.

race dysphoria is real. people can hate their bodies due to their racial characteristics.

disability dysphoria is real. people can hate their bodies due to their disabilities or lack therof.

transitioning is never the answer in any of these scenarios.


----------



## Capella (Aug 26, 2015)

Omg pillow bunny shut up


----------



## kayleee (Aug 26, 2015)

Gender is actually not body parts biological sex is body parts.... Gender is a social construct.... Just want to make that clear carry on


----------



## piichinu (Aug 26, 2015)

Wait actually I agree w kaylee but don't carry on tho


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 26, 2015)

kayleee said:


> Gender is actually not body parts biological sex is body parts.... Gender is a social construct.... Just want to make that clear carry on



thanks i thought the words were interchangeable but had multiple meanings oops


----------



## Tao (Aug 26, 2015)

kayleee said:


> Because being seen as having "girly" characteristics is negative. Being a girl is considered a negative thing. That's why girls say they "aren't like other girls" because even girls don't want to be seen as girls. That's why "you're being a girl" is so immasculsting and offensive to men/boys
> 
> It's ridiculous and girls are being ridiculed for not wanting to be seen as the stereotypical girl it's crazy
> 
> At this point it's like girls can't do anything right anything they do is viewed negatively honestly its so sad society has so much hate for girls, especially teenage girls



I've seen the "I'm not like other girls" thing said by about as many males as I have females (though they say "like other boys"), probably largely due to the same reasons you've given for why girls say it.


----------



## TarzanGirl (Aug 26, 2015)

I don't believe in the existence of gender. It is made up by humans. How do you say you feel like you are a certain gender without being stereotypical of one sex?


----------



## Beardo (Aug 26, 2015)

Sex is your "body parts"

Gender is what you identify as


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 26, 2015)

TarzanGirl said:


> I don't believe in the existence of gender. It is made up by humans. How do you say you feel like you are a certain gender without being stereotypical of one sex?



yes this


----------



## kayleee (Aug 26, 2015)

Tao said:


> I've seen the "I'm not like other girls" thing said by about as many males as I have females (though they say "like other boys"), probably largely due to the same reasons you've given for why girls say it.



Okay well I've literally never seen that and probably not largely due to the same reasons since women are generally viewed as inferior to men in society

I've never heard of a boy being ridiculed for acting "too much like a boy"


----------



## piichinu (Aug 26, 2015)

kayleee said:


> Okay well I've literally never seen that and probably not largely due to the same reasons since women are generally viewed as inferior to men in society



Yeah same, can back this up


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 26, 2015)

kayleee said:


> Okay well I've literally never seen that and probably not largely due to the same reasons since women are generally viewed as inferior to men in society
> 
> I've never heard of a boy being ridiculed for acting "too much like a boy"



it's more like

girl stereotypes: dumb, cares about nothing but clothes/makeup, hates sports/physical activity
boy stereotypes: no emotions, successful, hates clothes/makeup, loves sports

boys/girls feel they're not like other boys/girls because they do not fit into said stereotypes
it is more common in girls than boys because girls have more negative stereotypes associated with them, but they say it for the same reasons basically


----------



## Capella (Aug 26, 2015)

clothes dont have genders


----------



## kayleee (Aug 26, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> it's more like
> 
> girl stereotypes: dumb, cares about nothing but clothes/makeup, hates sports/physical activity
> boy stereotypes: no emotions, successful, hates clothes/makeup, loves sports
> ...


Yeah but the difference is when a girl exhibits all those stereotypes she is ridiculed, when a boy exhibits all their stereotypes they aren't made fun of. Like no boy is ridiculed for having no emotion or liking sports. Those are just viewed as common male traits whereas a girl who is "boy crazy" or cares a lot about their appearance is mocked because of their stereotypical "girlness"

So girls try to disassociate themselves from common traits of being a girl by saying they aren't like other girls to escape that ridicule, which in turn causes them to be ridiculed because "oh look at her thinking she's so special" 

Like they literally cannot win


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 26, 2015)

Cisphobe said:


> clothes dont have genders



i'm pretty sure you said this to spite me, but yes i agree and that's what i've been trying to say


----------



## That Zephyr Guy (Aug 26, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> boy stereotypes: no emotions, successful, hates clothes/makeup, loves sports



TIL I'm very boy-ish: I run around football tackling people whilst naked and walk away without a care in the world.
The success part comes from me doing a sick touchdown dance on their lawn.


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 26, 2015)

kayleee said:


> Yeah but the difference is when a girl exhibits all those stereotypes she is ridiculed, when a boy exhibits all their stereotypes they aren't made fun of. Like no boy is ridiculed for having no emotion or liking sports. Those are just viewed as common male traits whereas a girl who is "boy crazy" or cares a lot about their appearance is mocked because of their stereotypical "girlness"



yeah i think guys who don't fit their gender norm have more trouble than girls though, so it goes both ways (but girls generally have it worse). really though, people should be trying to eliminate these stereotypes rather than talk about which ones are better or worse


----------



## Beardo (Aug 26, 2015)

Shut er' down, Fleur!


----------



## That Zephyr Guy (Aug 26, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> yeah i think guys who don't fit their gender norm have more trouble than girls though, so it goes both ways (but girls generally have it worse). really though, people should be trying to eliminate these stereotypes rather than talk about which ones are better or worse



People already complain about this, and this is because if a boy isn't acting "how a boy should", then he's acting in a feminine manner, and feminine = bad.

It's not about girls being encouraged to act out of their stereotype and boys being encouraged to act within it, it's both genders being encouraged to not act stereotypically "girly"


----------



## Dinosaurz (Aug 26, 2015)

I find that men are sometimes worse, people assume that if you say/do one thing to a woman, everyone blows up. But if a woman does something to a man, no one cares. In the USA/ first world only!


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 26, 2015)

Beardo said:


> Shut er' down, Fleur!



i'll actually be really offended if i get a warning, because it will literally just be for having an unpopular opinion. i am not being antagonistic or rude, especially compared to some other people here

- - - Post Merge - - -



That Zephyr Guy said:


> People already complain about this, and this is because if a boy isn't acting "how a boy should", then he's acting in a feminine manner, and feminine = bad.
> 
> It's not about girls being encouraged to act out of their stereotype and boys being encouraged to act within it, it's both genders being encouraged to not act stereotypically "girly"



it's not the "girliness" that is being shunned really
i mean, of course it's bad and wrong, but i think people saying it's only a problem because they're acting "girly" are trying to make boy's issues about girls and that's bad

idk


----------



## TarzanGirl (Aug 26, 2015)

pillow bunny, you can't have a discussion about a topic such as this based on logic. Most people are just too emotional.


----------



## Tao (Aug 26, 2015)

kayleee said:


> Okay well I've literally never seen that




It must literally never happen then.


----------



## ams (Aug 26, 2015)

Hmm I might be jumping in at a bad time here, but back to the feminism thing. I always find these discussions confusing because I don't have a liberal arts background at all so when I think of feminism I'm not thinking about feminist theory or history as its taught in that context. I went to an all girls school growing up and I always understood feminists to just be people who believed in equal rights and opportunities despite gender, and also acknowledged and opened up discussions about unique challenges faced by women in our culture and others around the world. My male high school English teacher always called himself a feminist and basically explained his stance in the way I've mentioned. By that definition I would absolutely consider myself a feminist.

I can totally understand though that with feminism (and basically every other social movement) something that starts out with the purpose to unite people and promote equality just ends up inevitably becoming radicalized and having the exact opposite effect. Again, I am probably choosing the worst time possible to bring this up in this thread, but I feel the same way with the LGBT rights movement. I see so many LGBT people who are incredibly radical and are basically just polarizing people's opinions even more. Speaking as someone who is female and LGBT, it really saddens me that people within my own communities are corrupting movements that should be drawing people together.


----------



## kayleee (Aug 26, 2015)

Tao said:


> It must literally never happen then.



Yup you're exactly right and you weren't even a smart ass about it


----------



## piichinu (Aug 26, 2015)

Men are ridiculed for being too girly
Girls are ridiculed for being too girly

See the common denominator here


----------



## Tao (Aug 26, 2015)

piimisu said:


> Men are ridiculed for being too girly
> Girls are ridiculed for being too girly
> 
> See the common denominator here



I dunno. Men tend to get ridiculed for cheating, lacking communication skills, being slobs, being ignorant and being aggressive among other things since they're not positive traits. They are however traits that stereotypical men are supposed to have. Women also get ridiculed for those things.

Men get ridiculed for being manly.
Women get ridiculed for being manly.


----------



## piichinu (Aug 26, 2015)

Men get ridiculed for being manly

aight


----------



## Tao (Aug 26, 2015)

piimisu said:


> Men get ridiculed for being manly
> 
> aight



In the context with the examples I was using, yes.


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 26, 2015)

every aspect of sexism goes both ways
some might affect women more than men and vice versa, but they are always both affected


----------



## Princess (Aug 26, 2015)

Tao said:


> I still think 'feminists' just doesn't sound right.
> 
> For a group that's supposed to be equal rights, it's already off to a bad start since the name alone sounds like it benefits one group more than another, even if it doesn't. That (along with those who want superiority rather than equality) are probably why a lot of people just mock and ignore them.


The origin for the name is because that "group" is _not_ benefitting more than it's opposite currently. So it's a way to raise it to an equal level. But that's not all what feminism fights for.
The name doesn't really matter as much as the concept does.

Anyway, I'm definitely a feminist. Anyone that believes in in equality among *all* sexes is a feminist. 

- - - Post Merge - - -



Ashtot said:


> The thing with extremists in feminism is that they constantly contradict themselves. For instance they'll say that women should be allowed to wear whatever they want because it's their own body etc. but then complain about the sexualization of cartoon characters simply because of what their wearing.


There's a difference between wearing whatever you want and purposely sexualizing underage females within the media, for the specific media's target audience.

- - - Post Merge - - -

PS if your feminism actively EXCLUDES trans women and trans males
you are not a feminist.


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 27, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> There's a difference between wearing whatever you want and purposely sexualizing underage females within the media, for the specific media's target audience.



I agree, I was more referencing that there are times when it is clearly not sexualization but people claim that it is, I should have mentioned that in my post.

Also when it comes to the whole "im not like most girls/im not like most guys thing". It affects both.

When it comes to guys there's also the fact that a lot of guys are seen as animals that just want sex and aren't loving etc. and it makes me really sad because contrary to popular belief, good hearted men do exist.


----------



## kayleee (Aug 27, 2015)

Tao said:


> I dunno. Men tend to get ridiculed for cheating, lacking communication skills, being slobs, being ignorant and being aggressive among other things since they're not positive traits. They are however traits that stereotypical men are supposed to have. Women also get ridiculed for those things.
> 
> Men get ridiculed for being manly.
> Women get ridiculed for being manly.



But completely normal mundane traits that are neither positive or negative that girls have (liking makeup, clothes, shopping, going to the bathroom together, etc) are ridiculed. Being ignorant/a slob/too aggressive/etc are not mundane traits. They are negative traits as you yourself point out  that are negative in both males in females and are not strictly "manly" characteristics i.e anyone of either gender can have a temper or be a slob whereas makeup etc are inherently "girly" characteristics. Your attempt at equalizing this argument between men and women is ridiculous. there is clearly a large difference in the examples of completely mundane girly stereotypes I provided and your attempt at providing examples of stereotypical "male" traits which are inherently negative and are viewed as such in literally anyone because they just make you a ****ty person. Yet girls are ridiculed for things as untrivial as liking to wear makeup. 

Can I make myself any clearer or need I continue I feel like I'm typing the same thing over and over


----------



## piichinu (Aug 27, 2015)

kayleee said:


> But completely normal mundane traits that girls have (liking makeup, clothes, shopping, going to the bathroom together, etc) are ridiculed. Being ignorant/a slob/too aggressive/etc are not mundane traits. They are negative traits that are negative in both males in females and are not "manly" characteristics, whereas makeup etc are inherently "girly" characteristics. Your attempt at equalizing this argument between men and women is ridiculous. there is clearly a large difference in the examples of completely mundane girly stereotypes I provided and your attempt at providing examples of stereotypical "male" traits which are inherently negative and are viewed as such in literally anyone because they just make you a ****ty person.


PREACH
I couldn't find a way to word it and you did so thx


----------



## Princess (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> I agree, I was more referencing that there are times when it is clearly not sexualization but people claim that it is, I should have mentioned that in my post.
> 
> Also when it comes to the whole "im not like most girls/im not like most guys thing". It affects both.
> 
> When it comes to guys there's also the fact that a lot of guys are seen as animals that just want sex and aren't loving etc. and it makes me really sad because contrary to popular belief, good hearted men do exist.



Ah okay. But the sexualization of underage female characters is pretty prominent within media.

And of course there's good hearted men! Feminism pushes the notion of breaking traditional gender roles and stereotypes which includes not accepting that all men are sex loving animalistic machines. 

I just wanna add Ashton, I know you mean absolutely no harm and you're just trying to stick up for the people may feel offended over the generalization some women may throw at men, but the intent is to not generalize at all.


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 27, 2015)

kayleee said:


> But completely normal mundane traits that girls have (liking makeup, clothes, shopping, going to the bathroom together, etc) are ridiculed. Being ignorant/a slob/too aggressive/etc are not mundane traits. They are negative traits that are negative in both males in females and are not strictly "manly" characteristics i.e anyone of either gender can have a temper or be a slob whereas makeup etc are inherently "girly" characteristics. Your attempt at equalizing this argument between men and women is ridiculous. there is clearly a large difference in the examples of completely mundane girly stereotypes I provided and your attempt at providing examples of stereotypical "male" traits which are inherently negative and are viewed as such in literally anyone because they just make you a ****ty person.



Since when is liking makeup, clothes, shopping, and going to the bathroom together ridiculed in such a way? I've never seen anyone make fun of girls for this stuff, but I have seen men get ridiculed for being into some of these things. Maybe I'm living under a rock but I've just never seen this or heard it happening.


----------



## Princess (Aug 27, 2015)

kayleee said:


> But completely normal mundane traits that are neither positive or negative that girls have (liking makeup, clothes, shopping, going to the bathroom together, etc) are ridiculed. Being ignorant/a slob/too aggressive/etc are not mundane traits. They are negative traits as you yourself point out  that are negative in both males in females and are not strictly "manly" characteristics i.e anyone of either gender can have a temper or be a slob whereas makeup etc are inherently "girly" characteristics. Your attempt at equalizing this argument between men and women is ridiculous. there is clearly a large difference in the examples of completely mundane girly stereotypes I provided and your attempt at providing examples of stereotypical "male" traits which are inherently negative and are viewed as such in literally anyone because they just make you a ****ty person.



This is very true. Girls are constantly ridiculed for no matter what they like. 
EVEN IF a woman fits in a "stereotypical female role" she is still ridiculed for that. 

You shouldn't wear make up because then you come off as "fake"
You should wear make up because you look like a "slob"
You can't have a lot of sexual partners because then you're a "slut"
You should have sex or else you're a "prude"


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 27, 2015)

Princess said:


> Ah okay. But the sexualization of underage female characters is pretty prominent within media.
> 
> And of course there's good hearted men! Feminism pushes the notion of breaking traditional gender roles and stereotypes which includes not accepting that all men are sex loving animalistic machines.
> 
> I just wanna add Ashton, I know you mean absolutely no harm and you're just trying to stick up for the people may feel offended over the generalization some women may throw at men, but the intent is to not generalize at all.



Yeah I agree, Sometimes I have a hard time writing exactly what is in my head and I think I offend people unknowingly or say things I don't actually mean.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Princess said:


> This is very true. Girls are constantly ridiculed for no matter what they like.
> EVEN IF a woman fits in a "stereotypical female role" she is still ridiculed for that.
> 
> You shouldn't wear make up because then you come off as "fake"
> ...



I take back what I said because this definitely does happen, just never in my circle of friends and family.


----------



## Princess (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> Yeah I agree, Sometimes I have a hard time writing exactly what is in my head and I think I offend people unknowingly or say things I don't actually mean.



Yeah no worries, I know you're just trying to look out for anyone that could fall under a generalization. You're a good kid.
The only issue with that is sometimes nitpicking takes attention from the main issue.


----------



## piichinu (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> Since when is liking makeup, clothes, shopping, and going to the bathroom together ridiculed in such a way? I've never seen anyone make fun of girls for this stuff, but I have seen men get ridiculed for being into some of these things. Maybe I'm living under a rock but I've just never seen this or heard it happening.


It happens a lot, maybe you have to be a girl to notice it. It actually happened to one of my friends the other day. 
And yeah men are made fun of for those same things because they're considered "girly" traits


----------



## kayleee (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> Since when is liking makeup, clothes, shopping, and going to the bathroom together ridiculed in such a way? I've never seen anyone make fun of girls for this stuff, but I have seen men get ridiculed for being into some of these things. Maybe I'm living under a rock but I've just never seen this or heard it happening.



Are you serious right now? Because if you are you've definitely been living under a rock welcome to modern society which is both male dominated and oriented i think you will fit in just fine


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 27, 2015)

kayleee said:


> Are you serious right now? Because if you are you've definitely been living under a rock welcome to modern society which is both male dominated and oriented i think you will fit in just fine



I took back what I said in another post above.


----------



## kayleee (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> I took back what I said in another post.



Duly noted I posted my reply before I saw you taking it back.


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 27, 2015)

My question is why does that happen? Personally I don't understand why any of those things are negative.

I'm not a girl so I don't have as much insight but as a guy the only thing that I get put down for is actually gaming, not playing sports, and when I was younger it was fashion and shopping and things but I find people tend to be more accepting of that in guys recently. Gaming tends to still have a lot of negative connotations even today.


----------



## kayleee (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> My question is why does that happen? Personally I don't understand why any of those things are negative.
> 
> I'm not a girl so I don't have as much insight but as a guy the only thing that I get put down for is actually gaming, not playing sports, and when I was younger it was fashion and shopping and things but I find people tend to be more accepting of that in guys recently. Gaming tends to still have a lot of negative connotations even today.


Have you heard how much **** "girl gamers" get? More then guy gamers let me tell ya


----------



## mogyay (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> My question is why does that happen? Personally I don't understand why any of those things are negative.
> 
> I'm not a girl so I don't have as much insight but as a guy the only thing that I get put down for is actually gaming, not playing sports, and when I was younger it was fashion and shopping and things but I find people tend to be more accepting of that in guys recently. Gaming tends to still have a lot of negative connotations even today.



sometimes it's not like they're inherently _trying_ to be negative. i've had guys tell me how they prefer girls who wear no make up because they're not trying so hard. and i'm standing there all cute feeling sad with all my cute make up that makes me look gr8. i've had guys tell me how they prefer girls who aren't in to shopping because they're not so materialistic and they're not trying to burn a hole in their pocket. they laugh it off but it makes me feel uncomfortable. hell ye i love shopping and i'm not sorry but i feel like i should be. again this is just experiences, i know a ton of men who don't feel that way


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 27, 2015)

kayleee said:


> Have you heard how much **** "girl gamers" get? More then guy gamers let me tell ya



Yeah that's another issue and it's to the point that there's a running gag on Reddit and in a lot of games where people just assume that everyone there is a guy which is really stupid.

- - - Post Merge - - -



mogyay said:


> sometimes it's not like they're inherently _trying_ to be negative. i've had guys tell me how they prefer girls who wear no make up because they're not trying so hard. and i'm standing there all cute feeling sad with all my cute make up that makes me look gr8. i've had guys tell me how they prefer girls who aren't in to shopping because they're not so materialistic and they're not trying to burn a hole in their pocket. they laugh it off but it makes me feel uncomfortable. hell ye i love shopping and i'm not sorry but i feel like i should be. again this is just experiences, i know a ton of men who don't feel that way



Yeah that basically answers part of my question. It kinda seems like nitpicking and being overly critical of women. Personally I don't think that if girls enjoy makeup it means they're "trying too hard" or if they like shopping "they're materialistic" and realistically comparing them doesn't make that much sense, at least to me.


----------



## Princess (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> My question is why does that happen? Personally I don't understand why any of those things are negative.
> 
> I'm not a girl so I don't have as much insight but as a guy the only thing that I get put down for is actually gaming, not playing sports, and when I was younger it was fashion and shopping and things but I find people tend to be more accepting of that in guys recently. Gaming tends to still have a lot of negative connotations even today.


They definitely aren't negative things at all. They're just hobbies and everyone regardless of what they identify as should be allowed to enjoy what they like.

All throughout history, unfortunately this is a common theme. Anything feminine is deemed not a good thing, or at least not as good as it's male counterpart. For example, simply look at the English language. Most insults have a female connotation. Even when *men* are ridiculed, it's _usually_ because they are showing some form of femininity. 
Feminism is all about challenging the idea that certain things are reserved for certain genders


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 27, 2015)

Princess said:


> They definitely aren't negative things at all. They're just hobbies and everyone regardless of what they identify as should be allowed to enjoy what they like.
> 
> All throughout history, unfortunately this is a common theme. Anything feminine is deemed not a good thing, or at least not as good as it's male counterpart. For example, simply look at the English language. Most insults have a female connotation. Even when *men* are ridiculed, it's _usually_ because they are showing some form of femininity.
> Feminism is all about challenging the idea that certain things are reserved for certain genders



I mean it stems from Men being viewed as superior back in the day and it seems like a lot of people still have that mindset which is something I don't understand. I think it might have to do with the ratio of followers to leaders where there are so many followers who won't question what their taught compared to the few leaders who will rise up to make change?


----------



## Princess (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> I mean it stems from Men being viewed as superior back in the day and it seems like a lot of people still have that mindset which is something I don't understand. I think it might have to do with the ratio of followers to leaders where there are so many followers who won't question what their taught compared to the few leaders who will rise up to make change?



Yep for sure! It's been institutionalized within our society, and I'm sure you can see why it's so important for us to question things and ask why. Because then we begin to realize that actually half our population has been being treated quite unfairly for some time, and we should strive to make a change.


----------



## Tao (Aug 27, 2015)

Princess said:


> The origin for the name is because that "group" is _not_ benefitting more than it's opposite currently. So it's a way to raise it to an equal level. But that's not all what feminism fights for.
> The name doesn't really matter as much as the concept does.
> 
> Anyway, I'm definitely a feminist. Anyone that believes in in equality among *all* sexes is a feminist.



I know the origin of it, a change in title is just something that I think would help these days  more so from how people tend to jump to conclusions based on the 'fem' in the title without doing any actual research, or how certain '_feminists_' have pretty much tarnished the image in the eyes of a lot of people with their extremism.





kayleee said:


> But completely normal mundane traits that are neither positive or negative that girls have (liking makeup, clothes, shopping, going to the bathroom together, etc) are ridiculed.



I've never heard ridicule of girls liking makeup, shopping, clothes or going for group pee-pees, so it doesn't exist. 





kayleee said:


> Being ignorant/a slob/too aggressive/etc are not mundane traits. They are negative traits as you yourself point out  that are negative in both males in females and are not strictly "manly" characteristics i.e anyone of either gender can have a temper or be a slob whereas makeup etc are inherently "girly" characteristics.



If given that list of traits and told to apply them to one sex, most people would probably apply them to men. 

They exist with both sexes, yes, but they're sterotypically male traits. Just as 'being emotional' applies with both genders yet is seen as a female thing.




kayleee said:


> Your attempt at equalizing this argument between men and women is ridiculous-



I'll stop you right there. I'm not trying to equalize anything or say that men have it equal or worse. I'm pointing out that men do in fact get ridiculed for a lot of the same things as girls do (such as "I'm not like other girls") even if you don't personally see it as well as things specifically for men, whilst you seem to be saying that this issue is only something that applies to women (which is rather sexist).

It may not be what you were implying, but it certainly came across that way to me.


----------



## Jacob (Aug 27, 2015)

kayleee said:


> Have you heard how much **** "girl gamers" get? More then guy gamers let me tell ya



I have been reading a lot of these arguments, between ashtot, you, and others.

I just wanted to say, not all gamer girls get ****. Its the gamers that are cocky, fake, mean, etc. There are certainly guy gamers that get the same ****, even more sometimes. I have also seen many girls get ridiculed for wearing makeup more than a guy would. I am absolutely not taking sides for a specific gender here, I want to explain that I think everyone can get ridiculed for anything, not everyone is going to like what you do. Girls do not have it worse than Guys. Guys do not have it worse than Girls.

You guys all brought up very important points here, but you all also leave things out. 

Guys have higher levels of testosterone, naturally, so they are usually gonna be more aggressive than girls. Its not a negative thing always.

Girls also have more of a gene (I appologize for forgetting the scientific name) that makes them more sensitive and insecure, which leads to them doing things to boost their confidence. This is also not a negative thing.

There is no point in arguing for why each gender is ridiculed, because frankly there is nothing we can do about it. I believe discussions like this are started so we can support one another and abolish discrimination and accusations, and understand our opposite genders a little better.
I always pity a girl who is being put down; girls should always pity a guy who is being put down. The people who are the biggest problems are the people who call someone out for their flaws and don't help them to fix 'em.
Let's not argue at each other, but argue with each other.

Sorry if this makes no sense, I am just voicing my opinion


----------



## Tao (Aug 27, 2015)

Jacob_lawall said:


> Girls also have more of a gene (I appologize for forgetting the scientific name)



I think you mean Estrogen (though I feel I'm wrong)


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 27, 2015)

i haven't read all the new posts yet but @Jacob_Lawall the myth that boys and girls have different brains has been debunked, all behavioural differences are a result of social conditioning


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 27, 2015)

i haven't read all the new posts yet, but @Jacob_Lawall the myth that boys and girls have different brains has been debunked, all behavioural differences are a result of social conditioning


----------



## Princess (Aug 27, 2015)

@Tao
Orrrrr, people could do some quick research and learn what feminism is all about. Having to change to name so it benefits the group that's already benefiting from society is pretty counterproductive, not to mention kind of ironic.


----------



## piichinu (Aug 27, 2015)

Girls are insecure because they've been raised to have to impress everyone around them and their only worth lies in their appearance

Girls do have it worse than guys, I really don't want to make this into a contest like some people already have, but since it's been mentioned already...


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 27, 2015)

Princess said:


> @Tao
> Orrrrr, people could do some quick research and learn what feminism is all about. Having to change to name so it benefits the group that's already benefiting from society is pretty counterproductive, not to mention kind of ironic.



That's the struggle though. The people that see feminism as something negative will be the same people to not bother to research it in most cases.


----------



## kayleee (Aug 27, 2015)

Tao said:


> I know the origin of it, a change in title is just something that I think would help these days  more so from how people tend to jump to conclusions based on the 'fem' in the title without doing any actual research, or how certain '_feminists_' have pretty much tarnished the image in the eyes of a lot of people with their extremism.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah but so what if males have a bunch of negative traits associated with them females do too and they're exactly that - NEGATIVE TRAITS whereas RIDICULE FOR SOMETHING AS MUNDANE AS WEARING MAKEUP is NOT a negative trait and thus women face ridicule for something that is completely harmless and is NOT negative yet they still get ridiculed for it being ridiculed for having a temper is different than BEING RIDICULED FOR LIKING TO GO TO THE MALL EVERY DAY

I'm not implying girls "have it worse." I'm saying that girls are ridiculed and shamed for SIMPLY BEING A GIRL. Men displaying SIMPLE FEMININE CHARACTERISTICS makes them eligible to be RIDICULED. BEING A GIRL = BAD. ACTING LIKE GIRL = BAD. GIRL = BAD 

MUNDANE MALE CHARACTERISTICS LIKE BEING ATHLETIC AND GOOD AT VIDEO GAMES / WHATEVER IS SEEN IN MEN AS GOOD. Mundane masculine chsracteristics in females = BAD. Which leads to females facing ridicule if they are too girly OR too manly. Is there any other way I can explain this to you do the caps help


----------



## Princess (Aug 27, 2015)

Jacob_lawall said:


> I have been reading a lot of these arguments, between ashtot, you, and others.
> 
> I just wanted to say, not all gamer girls get ****. Its the gamers that are cocky, fake, mean, etc. There are certainly guy gamers that get the same ****, even more sometimes. I have also seen many girls get ridiculed for wearing makeup more than a guy would. I am absolutely not taking sides for a specific gender here, I want to explain that I think everyone can get ridiculed for anything, not everyone is going to like what you do. Girls do not have it worse than Guys. Guys do not have it worse than Girls.
> 
> ...



Hi, nursing student here.
The hormone testosterone does not make humans more aggressive. That's a pretty common myth, but it doesn't lead to increased aggression in individuals.

Also what you're referring to is probably estrogen and progesterone in females. Women have two cycles going on with their reproductive system that utilizes these two hormones. Does it make them more sensitive and insecure? Er.. not necessarily, since that's pretty subjective. But when these hormones peak and dip within the cycles, they can subject women to various moods.

EDIT: Wanna add to this, since I left it kind off kind of vague.
This does not mean all women get extreme mood swings, blah blah, typical pms stereotype


----------



## Jacob (Aug 27, 2015)

Tao said:


> I think you mean Estrogen (though I feel I'm wrong)


I think you might be right.


pillow bunny said:


> i haven't read all the new posts yet but @Jacob_Lawall the myth that boys and girls have different brains has been debunked, all behavioural differences are a result of social conditioning





Spoiler:  13+ please.



"Women have lower levels of testosterone than men because this is their way their bodies are designed. The main sex hormone in women, produced by the ovaries, is estrogen, which tends to promote the storage of fat rather than its breakdown. On the other hand, the main sex hormone in men is testosterone, produced by the testicles, which tends to promote the formation of muscle mass. "
https://www.zocdoc.com/answers/7750/why-do-women-have-lower-levels-of-testosterone-than-men

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testosterone



- - - Post Merge - - -



Princess said:


> Hi, nursing student here.
> The hormone testosterone does not make humans more aggressive. That's a pretty common myth, but it doesn't lead to increased aggression in individuals.
> 
> Also what you're referring to is probably estrogen and progesterone in females. Women have two cycles going on with their reproductive system that utilizes these two hormones. Does it make them more sensitive and insecure? Er.. not necessarily, since that's pretty subjective. But when these hormones peak and dip within the cycles, they can subject women to various moods.
> ...



Ah I see, Thank you for clarifying.


----------



## piichinu (Aug 27, 2015)

Also not all women are biologically women/dont have access to hormones so yeah


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 27, 2015)

Jacob_lawall said:


> I think you might be right.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



uh yeah, i'm not denying that they exist
they just don't affect behaviour


----------



## kayleee (Aug 27, 2015)

Jacob_lawall said:


> I think you might be right.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That says absolutely nothing to support that men and women act differently because of their respective sex hormone


----------



## Princess (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> That's the struggle though. The people that see feminism as something negative will be the same people to not bother to research it in most cases.



I agree 300 million percent. But it's literally the equivalent to blurting out ALL LIVES MATTER, when someone says Black Lives Matter. 
Like..when we say Save the Rainforests are we saying **** All Other Forests?? No! Highlighting, and giving spotlight to ONE underprivileged group DOES NOT MEAN we are dismissing all other groups and their own struggles


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 27, 2015)

Again I think it comes back to the follower mentality. A white cop shoots a black guy and the media portrays it as how white cops are racist and suddenly you have millions of people that just assume and continually talk about how racist white cops are, even though that was only one case. (Sorry that's probably a really bad analogy).

- - - Post Merge - - -

I think it kinda comes down to that a huge chunk of the population just have no critical thinking skills.


----------



## kayleee (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> Again I think it comes back to the follower mentality. A white cop shoots a black guy and the media portrays it as how white cops are racist and suddenly you have millions of people that just assume and continually talk about how racist white cops are, even though that was only one case. (Sorry that's probably a really bad analogy).



Yeah... That's gonna open a whole other can of worms


----------



## Princess (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> Again I think it comes back to the follower mentality. A white cop shoots a black guy and the media portrays it as how white cops are racist and suddenly you have millions of people that just assume and continually talk about how racist white cops are, even though that was only one case. (Sorry that's probably a really bad analogy).
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> I think it kinda comes down to that a huge chunk of the population just have no critical thinking skills.



I get what you mean...but the whole white cops (cops in general tbh) targeting the black community is a very real and SUPER common thing so probably not the best example to bring up!


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 27, 2015)

Princess said:


> I get what you mean...but the whole white cops (cops in general tbh) targeting the black community is a very real and SUPER common thing so probably not the best example to bring up!



Yeah...

How about we change it to how a great white shark kills someone and then JAWS happens etc.

That's much better I think...


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 27, 2015)

kayleee said:


> Yeah but so what if males have a bunch of negative traits associated with them females do too and they're exactly that - NEGATIVE TRAITS whereas RIDICULE FOR SOMETHING AS MUNDANE AS WEARING MAKEUP is NOT a negative trait and thus women face ridicule for something that is completely harmless and is NOT negative yet they still get ridiculed for it being ridiculed for having a temper is different than BEING RIDICULED FOR LIKING TO GO TO THE MALL EVERY DAY
> 
> I'm not implying girls "have it worse." I'm saying that girls are ridiculed and shamed for SIMPLY BEING A GIRL. Men displaying SIMPLE FEMININE CHARACTERISTICS makes them eligible to be RIDICULED. BEING A GIRL = BAD. ACTING LIKE GIRL = BAD. GIRL = BAD
> 
> MUNDANE MALE CHARACTERISTICS LIKE BEING ATHLETIC AND GOOD AT VIDEO GAMES / WHATEVER IS SEEN IN MEN AS GOOD. Mundane masculine chsracteristics in females = BAD. Which leads to females facing ridicule if they are too girly OR too manly. Is there any other way I can explain this to you do the caps help



kayleee i think you're taking this a bit too personally

tao is saying that men are affected by negative stereotypes too. there are positive and negative stereotypes associated with both genders. of course, since you're a girl you experience female stereotyping each and every day, but you'll never see male stereotyping firsthand. he(?) is not trying to invalidate your problems, he's just saying that nothing is completely one-sided.

like, there is a stereotype that teenage boys are antisocial, sleep in extremely late, and play video games all day. there are people of both genders who do these things, and both are considered bad (by adults mainly). none of these traits are necessarily bad though. using your logic, tao could say that masculine male = bad, masculine female = bad.

yeah, i believe that girls have it worse, but it's troublesome to ignore guys issues because both sides of sexism are linked and everything can't be solved solely by looking at female issues


----------



## Princess (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> Yeah...
> 
> How about we change it to how a great white shark kills someone and then JAWS happens etc.
> 
> That's much better I think...



Definitely, SAVE THE SHARKS man


----------



## Tao (Aug 27, 2015)

Princess said:


> @Tao
> Orrrrr, people could do some quick research and learn what feminism is all about. Having to change to name so it benefits the group that's already benefiting from society is pretty counterproductive, not to mention kind of ironic.



True. I just don't hold very high expectations for most people to do such hard tasks like 'research/2 minutes on google', who are sadly the people you usually have to make compromises for.






kayleee said:


> MUNDANE MALE CHARACTERISTICS LIKE BEING ATHLETIC AND GOOD AT VIDEO GAMES / WHATEVER IS SEEN IN MEN AS GOOD. Mundane masculine chsracteristics in females = BAD. Which leads to females facing ridicule if they are too girly OR too manly. Is there any other way I can explain this to you do the caps help




You can type it in caps, you can get an aerial stunt team to write it with multicolored smoke in the sky, you could even get a giant laser to write it on the face of the moon, the point will still stand though; it happens to both sexes and I'm not saying men get it equally or worse, merely acknowledging and mentioning that it does indeed happen.

It's really not a black/white, either/or situation like you seem to be implying.


----------



## kayleee (Aug 27, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> kayleee i think you're taking this a bit too personally
> 
> tao is saying that men are affected by negative stereotypes too. there are positive and negative stereotypes associated with both genders. of course, since you're a girl you experience female stereotyping each and every day, but you'll never see male stereotyping firsthand. he(?) is not trying to invalidate your problems, he's just saying that nothing is completely one-sided.
> 
> ...



I'm not disregarding the struggles of men if that's what you are suggesting I have acknowledged them my point being that his counterexample didn't exactly work because we are talking about two completely different issues

The ridicule of negative male stereotypes in men
And
The ridicule of completely mundane female stereotypes in both men and women 

I am clearly acknowledging the plight of men, while simply pointing out that much of it stems from negative societal views of femininity


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> Again I think it comes back to the follower mentality. A white cop shoots a black guy and the media portrays it as how white cops are racist and suddenly you have millions of people that just assume and continually talk about how racist white cops are, even though that was only one case. (Sorry that's probably a really bad analogy).
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> I think it kinda comes down to that a huge chunk of the population just have no critical thinking skills.



i think that a big part of it that a lot of people feel like they're the only person who can help, because everyone else/most people are "problematic" and wrong. which leads to millions of white people believing they're the only non-racist white person in the world, and the whole "not like other girls/boys" thing (that was really poorly explained oops)

yep, a huge chunk of the population sure does have no critical thinking skills!!1!eleven

- - - Post Merge - - -



kayleee said:


> I'm not disregarding the struggles of men if that's what you are suggesting I have acknowledged them my point being that his counterexample didn't exactly work because we are talking about two completely different issues
> 
> The ridicule of negative male stereotypes in men
> And
> ...



you are talking about the same issue, you just don't think you are for some reason


----------



## ams (Aug 27, 2015)

Oh man, I'm going to bed in a minute but I just had to say that sex hormones absolutely affect mood and behaviour and also cause changes to the brain prenatally that cause differences between the sexes. It's just that these between sex differences are often more emphasized socially than within sex differences which is silly. But as someone else said earlier, people will probably prefer to argue based on their personal feelings about gender.


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 27, 2015)

kayleee said:


> I'm not disregarding the struggles of men if that's what you are suggesting I have acknowledged them my point being that his counterexample didn't exactly work because we are talking about two completely different issues
> 
> The ridicule of negative male stereotypes in men
> And
> ...



I think though that there's a difference in who ridicules who for femininity and masculinity. Like that men would be ridiculed by some women because of the stereotypes but it would be less likely for a man to ridicule a man for those reasons, where as for women they seem to get ridiculed somewhat equally by both men and women for the same thing maybe? Sorry if that doesn't make sense.


----------



## kayleee (Aug 27, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> i think that a big part of it that a lot of people feel like they're the only person who can help, because everyone else/most people are "problematic" and wrong. which leads to millions of white people believing they're the only non-racist white person in the world, and the whole "not like other girls/boys" thing (that was really poorly explained oops)
> 
> yep, a huge chunk of the population sure does have no critical thinking skills!!1!eleven
> 
> ...



I'm not sure you're understanding but I don't know how to explain it any more clearly

- - - Post Merge - - -



Ashtot said:


> I think though that there's a difference in who ridicules who for femininity and masculinity. Like that men would be ridiculed by some women because of the stereotypes but it would be less likely for a man to ridicule a man for those reasons, where as for women they seem to get ridiculed somewhat equally by both men and women for the same thing maybe? Sorry if that doesn't make sense.



Men don't ridicule men for being "a *****???" That's like the most common insult men throw at each other


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 27, 2015)

ams said:


> Oh man, I'm going to bed in a minute but I just had to say that sex hormones absolutely affect mood and behaviour and also cause changes to the brain prenatally that cause differences between the sexes. It's just that these between sex differences are often more emphasized socially than within sex differences which is silly. But as someone else said earlier, people will probably prefer to argue based on their personal feelings about gender.



click

- - - Post Merge - - -



kayleee said:


> I'm not sure you're understanding but I don't know how to explain it any more clearly
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



uh... how do you know...

you're making a LOT of assumptions


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 27, 2015)

kayleee said:


> I'm not sure you're understanding but I don't know how to explain it any more clearly
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



I think I just explained poorly sorry.


----------



## kayleee (Aug 27, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> click
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



How do I know what? What are you talking about


----------



## MozzarellaSticks (Aug 27, 2015)

I'm going to save you guys some trouble here. You're debating nature vs nurture. There is no answer. Except maybe both.


----------



## ams (Aug 27, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> click



Honey, no offence, but you're 13 and just did a Google search. I'm 24, have a degree in Biochemistry and am currently in medical school.

Have a good night.

- - - Post Merge - - -



hariolari said:


> I'm going to save you guys some trouble here. You're debating nature vs nurture. There is no answer. Except maybe both.




Please study epigenetics. You're totally right


----------



## Ichigo. (Aug 27, 2015)

hariolari said:


> I'm going to save you guys some trouble here. You're debating nature vs nurture. There is no answer. Except maybe both.



Yeah, the answer is both. Took a semester long course on epigenetics.


----------



## kayleee (Aug 27, 2015)

ams coming in here tellin it like it is

You go girl


----------



## Jamborenium (Aug 27, 2015)

honestly I can name two issues that men face in society and that's if a man is beaten or abused by his wife or by any female he is called weak and p**sy for letting a woman abuse him

and if a man is raped, most of the time people play it off as a joke by saying stuff like "oh men can't get raped" "whoa man you're so lucky" "wow you must be gay if you didn't like it" and so much more

and because of these things most men don't come forward when they are being abused or if they got raped because of statements like that. which is why it's not as reported as woman abuse and rape cases.

and these are both serious cases and a man shouldn't be ridiculed because of it​


----------



## Princess (Aug 27, 2015)

Nebudelic said:


> honestly I can name two things that males have an issue with in society and that's if a man is beaten or abused by his wife or by any female he is called weak and p**sy for letting a woman abuse him
> 
> and if a man is raped, people play it off as a joke by saying stuff like "oh men can't get raped" "whoa man you're so lucky" "wow you must be gay if you didn't like it" and so much more
> 
> and because of these things most men don't come forward when they are being abused or they got raped because of statements like that. which is why it's not as reported as woman abuse and rape cases.​



feminism actually includes that as an issue to fight about.


----------



## Jamborenium (Aug 27, 2015)

that's good I'm happy about that, cause those issue needs to be addressed more 


and it makes me mad that those fake radical "feminist" do sh!t like this that give actual feminist a bad name


a really long list of articles and source material of negative stuff fake "feminist" have done

TBH I'm not a feminist myself if that's okay? but I do believe in equality and rights of both genders and yes it is possible to be for them without having to be labeled a feminist and woman who don't identify as a feminist shouldn't be put down or treated like sh!t​


----------



## Tao (Aug 27, 2015)

Nebudelic said:


> honestly I can name two issues that men face in society and that's if a man is beaten or abused by his wife or by any female he is called weak and p**sy for letting a woman abuse him​



It just reminded me of this video, so I thought I would link it.


----------



## piichinu (Aug 27, 2015)

Another pet peeve I have is when I tell people im a feminist, the immediate response is "yeah but men have issues too"
Ok that's great and I know that but it's not a competition so stop treating it like one or else I'll have to start lmao


----------



## RhinoK (Aug 27, 2015)

piimisu said:


> Another pet peeve I have is when I tell people im a feminist, the immediate response is "yeah but men have issues too"
> Ok that's great and I know that but it's not a competition so stop treating it like one or else I'll have to start lmao



Kinda like how feminists always say "ya but women have it harder" when men talk about their problems??

- - - Post Merge - - -



piimisu said:


> Girls do have it worse than guys, I really don't want to make this into a contest like some people already have, but since it's been mentioned already...



Point proven


----------



## kayleee (Aug 27, 2015)

RhinoK said:


> Kinda like how feminists always say "ya but women have it harder" when men talk about their problems??
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...


society is male dominated and oriented women are considered a minority so yeah that pretty much speaks for itself p. sure women have it worse no matter how much it hurts ur feelings lmao

Women in a lot of countries are treated like second rate citizens like do some research before claiming women DONT "have it harder"


----------



## RhinoK (Aug 27, 2015)

kayleee said:


> society is male dominated and oriented women are considered a minority so yeah that pretty much speaks for itself p. sure women have it worse no matter how much it hurts ur feelings lmao
> 
> Women in a lot of countries are treated like second rate citizens like do some research before claiming women DONT "have it harder"



Feelings? Hurt? My feelings aren't hurt lmao but it's annoying considering I've had my problems invalidated by feminists complaining that women have it harder

I didn't even say women don't have it harder though did I? I'm saying feminists will interrupt men talking about their problems and talk about how they have it harder... I mean I think that's different from me saying women don't have it harder.,. 'Research' is something that a lot of third wave feminists need to do, I know women have it harder in a lot of countries, I know that they're raped and beaten daily and face sexism and prejudice and it's sick, yet feminists are complaining and campaigning about men spreading their legs on the bus?


----------



## radical6 (Aug 27, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> it sucks that you are dysphoric, but ripping off your breasts is not the answer. some people want to rip off their limbs, but doctors do not actually let them amputate their limbs because that's just not the right solution. i don't know how you feel, but i sympathize with you like i sympathize with other people who have medical conditions.



Shut the hell up.

You know nothing about me. You know nothing about my body. You know nothing about my trauma. I am sex repulsed. I am dysphoric. I do not feel like this body is mine. I do not like this body. My body has only gotten me sexually abused as well. 

Do not act like you know me. Do not act like you're smart. 

Do not tell me you understand how I feel. You are not me. You have never faced what I faced. Do not sympathize with me. I do not want your fake pity.



pillow bunny said:


> GENDER IS LITERALLY BODY PARTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it should only be used for medical stuff, and people of both genders should be treated the exact same (no male/female marketing). interests are a part of people's PERSONALITIES, not their genders. that is like saying only people with blond hair can like cats, and anyone else who likes cats must be transblond. both exist, but they are 100% unrelated.



Oh my god...



pillow bunny said:


> violence against trans people (or anyone else) is never justified. i am saying that i do not agree with people identifying as trans, not that i want to kill them.



You do agree with violence against trans people. Denying their identity is an act of violence. Denying trans women safety is an act of violence.

This is what your group of stupid feminists seek out. 

This is what your group of feminists do.

There have been TERFs who have actively campaigned for laws to be passed to make it harder for trans people to transistion. To pass. To even see a doctor.

TERFs out trans TEENAGERS. TEENAGERS. to their PARENTS. TELL ME HOW THAT IS OKAY? Tell me how thats not what your awful terf feminism does?

Your feminism ruins trans womens lives. Your feminism gets them killed. Your feminism does nothing. I hate it. It's funny to me, because most TERFs are cis white women. And, they have never experienced sexual abuse in their life usually. It's hilarious to me. Really. How they think they face the hardest **** in their life.

Your stupid concerns are useless. You want to deny trans women from women spaces because you think trans women will rape cis women.

Guess what?

They don't. They never had.

There is no reason to deny them. But yet, you will probably allow trans men into women spaces. How funny. 

You know why I hate people like you so much? Because it's your thinking that gets trans women killed. I worry so much for my friend. She is only a child, but the whole world already wants her dead. 

People like you want to make it harder for her to live her life. She is a child. She has known she was a girl ever since she could walk. Yet, you say she's not a woman. That she hasn't grown up living as a girl.

Do you know how often I think of her safety? I wish no harm ever comes to her. She is so young. She is so innocent. She's done nothing wrong.

But I know she will face harm one day, and I cannot stop it. Because it's a daily thing for trans women in their life. 

So just ****ing stop it with this toxic attitude. You want to kick trans women out of the very spaces they need most.


----------



## Tao (Aug 27, 2015)

kayleee said:


> society is male dominated and oriented women are considered a minority so yeah that pretty much speaks for itself p. sure women have it worse no matter how much it hurts ur feelings lmao
> 
> Women in a lot of countries are treated like second rate citizens like do some research before claiming women DONT "have it harder"



I don't think anybody is saying that women don't have it harder, only that a lot of people seem to invalidate sexism towards men almost entirely by saying "but women have it harder" in a "so deal with it" sort of way, kind of like you keep continuously doing. 


You can also bring up other countries as much as you want, it doesn't change the fact that males are negatively effected from sexism as well and that it's just as important as sexism against females. Why is it just as important? Because of equality. It doesn't matter if they "have it harder" or not.


----------



## Kildor (Aug 27, 2015)

I don't like calling myself a feminist, though I do call myself an egalitarian. Where I believe that all men and women are equal.
I'm alright with feminism though, I just think that radical feminists ruin everything that the first-wave feminists fought for.


----------



## kayleee (Aug 27, 2015)

Okay but public service announcement all of the males in this thread have come in and been like "but males face ridicule too!!!!!1111" like um yeah but you're doing exactly what you say women do when men's issues are brought up like talk about ironic.... It's exactly like what princess said with people screaming ALL LIVES MATTER when someone says black lives matter.... Like yes we get that but right now we are talking about black lives.... In this case I was talking about women you don't need to get your panties in a bunch making sure I acknowledge men's struggles too like chill lmao


----------



## RhinoK (Aug 27, 2015)

kayleee said:


> Okay but public service announcement all of the males in this thread have come in and been like "but males face ridicule too!!!!!1111" like um yeah but you're doing exactly what you say women do when men's issues are brought up like talk about ironic.... It's exactly like what princess said with people screaming ALL LIVES MATTER when someone says black lives matter.... Like yes we get that but right now we are talking about black lives.... In this case I was talking about women you don't need to get your panties in a bunch making sure I acknowledge men's struggles too like chill lmao



Nice reply to Tao,,,, did they hurt ur feelings lmao????? 
ALSO don't call me male.... it's pretty oppressive... you wouldn't call women females would u??



Tao said:


> I don't think anybody is saying that women don't have it harder, only that a lot of people seem to invalidate sexism towards men almost entirely by saying "but women have it harder" in a "so deal with it" sort of way, kind of like you keep continuously doing.
> 
> 
> You can also bring up other countries as much as you want, it doesn't change the fact that males are negatively effected from sexism as well and that it's just as important as sexism against females. Why is it just as important? Because of equality. It doesn't matter if they "have it harder" or not.



drag her Tao <3


----------



## kayleee (Aug 27, 2015)

RhinoK said:


> Nice reply to Tao,,,, did they hurt ur feelings lmao?????
> 
> 
> 
> drag her Tao <3



Are you like 13

Also that was the worst "drag" I've ever encountered LMAO you guys are hilarious. Men are stupid


----------



## Tao (Aug 27, 2015)

kayleee said:


> Okay but public service announcement all of the males in this thread have come in and been like "but males face ridicule too!!!!!1111" like um yeah but you're doing exactly what you say women do when men's issues are brought up like talk about ironic.... It's exactly like what princess said with people screaming ALL LIVES MATTER when someone says black lives matter.... Like yes we get that but right now we are talking about black lives.... In this case I was talking about women you don't need to get your panties in a bunch making sure I acknowledge men's struggles too like chill lmao




Actually, I only specifically mentioned 'male struggles' in the first place because of certain comments by certain people implying that certain things happen or only apply to women when they don't.

I'm not really " doing exactly what you say women do when men's issues are brought up" at all since I'm not trying to make any issues seem insignificant or none existent compared to others. I'm defending that some issues exist in the first place when people like yourself are implying that they don't.


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 27, 2015)

kayleee said:


> Men are stupid



And that's why Feminism has a bad reputation...


----------



## RhinoK (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> And that's why Feminism has a bad reputation...



That's why? That's like the most tame thing Kayleee has said


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 27, 2015)

RhinoK said:


> That's why? That's like the most tame thing Kayleee has said



It's the blatant statements like this that turn people off from it and make people frustrated.


----------



## RhinoK (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> It's the blatant statements like this that turn people off from it and make people frustrated.



True. but Kayleee has been very hostile and condescending which is enough to put people off feminism


----------



## Watchingthetreetops (Aug 27, 2015)

I'm a bit...strange on this subject.  I don't believe in the....give me this because I am special mentality of a lot of groups these days.  For example, the new Ghostbusters movie sort of makes me sick.  They're treating the fact that their cast is female as a gimmick, which makes me skeptical.  Treating...being a woman as a trick to get people to watch your movie sort of defeats the point of writing about female characters.  It isn't about...make things female.  It's about: write females as characters.  We are not 'females' we are 'human', therefore having something say: LOOK WE HAVE FEMALES makes my stomach sick.  I don't want it as a gimmick, I want to be treated like my life is worth more then having babies and making families.  I am not the female love interest in my life, I am the main character and there is more to me then my uterus.

I much prefer aligning myself with the 'he for she' movement, because there is a lot less negativity surrounding it.  I will not blame men for the bad things that have happened to me, as I have made bad choices that involved men.  And men have made bad choices that involve me.  It isn't about being a woman or a man, it is about accepting that I am a female and I have male tendencies and this is all perfectly natural and okay, and He for She preaches not only this, but that men have female tenancies and that's okay, too.  NO ONE is here to be the property of someone else.  I am not meant to be someone else's side kick and that's it.  I am here to be me and I could care absolutely less what you have to think about it. If you think that being a woman somehow makes me less, go ahead and tell me.  I'm glad to remind anyone of how insignificant you and and all of your opinions are when compared to the universe.  When compared to the vastness of the universe, you and I are nothing more then arguing specs of dust.  So go ahead.  Tell me how much better you are then me.

We are truly dancers on the same plane of existence and I will gladly do battle with you.

- - - Post Merge - - -

-------------

As is said above, statements like 'men are stupid' really /are/ why I don't like saying I'm a feminist.  When I /do/ say it, I feel like I have to be careful, because it's things like that that make feminism a derogatory term now a days.   Now, we had to fight to vote.  We are fighting to be treated like humans.  Women are not here to be the trophy for men.  And that....that's really where I stand.  And I really think it's important to recognize that things really /are/ changing.  Women are not being seen like they were, before.  I think...ug... people are feeling WAY too entitled.  'Give me special things because I am a special snowflake'.  That's the mentality I see and it...just....grosses me out.  I despise talking about it because people get offended so quickly, but you don't deserve anything special.  If you want something special, go make it and be proud that you did, because if a meteor the size of mars plummets through the earth, you and your special qualities will not save you.

disclaimer: I mean no offense to anyone


----------



## piichinu (Aug 27, 2015)

Tao said:


> I don't think anybody is saying that women don't have it harder, only that a lot of people seem to invalidate sexism towards men almost entirely by saying "but women have it harder" in a "so deal with it" sort of way, kind of like you keep continuously doing.
> 
> 
> You can also bring up other countries as much as you want, it doesn't change the fact that males are negatively effected from sexism as well and that it's just as important as sexism against females. Why is it just as important? Because of equality. It doesn't matter if they "have it harder" or not.


You're trying to equate the struggles of men and women to be equal
No they aren't 
Men have issues too. The point is,
Yes men's issues in society are important! But overall, men dominate in society, which is why before solving their issues, we need women to be treated as equals. There's never been a time when men were viewed as inferior to women in a GENERAL way. And that's the whole point in feminism, but you people come into this thread, and as soon as someone says something about double standards or anything, you jump to "it happens to men too" (please see: ALL LIVES MATTER)
Alright sure let's say it does. But like I said before
"overall, men dominate in society, which is why before solving their issues, we need women to be treated as equals. There's never been a time when men were viewed as inferior to women in a GENERAL way."

And Im pretty sure kaylee only said that because people are being annoying as ***.


----------



## RhinoK (Aug 27, 2015)

piimisu said:


> You're behaving in the same way loool. Double standards again



Double standards? I know I'm being annoying, I didn't say I wasn't, but I'm not being so condescending as Kayleee is


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 27, 2015)

I think that's the thing about Feminism though. A lot of people simply want equal rights, instead of simply making women's rights equal to that of a mans, if that makes sense. I think that's the difference between Egalitarianism and Feminism.


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 27, 2015)

justice said:


> Shut the hell up.
> 
> You know nothing about me. You know nothing about my body. You know nothing about my trauma. I am sex repulsed. I am dysphoric. I do not feel like this body is mine. I do not like this body. My body has only gotten me sexually abused as well.
> 
> ...



i'm pretty sure this is meant to be a super cool shutdown post and force me into exile due to shame. but so far, you have not actually responded to any of my posts. you have just being calling me an idiot and a 13 year old. the whole trans thing makes no sense to me, but instead of trying to explain it you've just been insulting me.

1. what is gender and what is the criteria for identifying as each gender?
2. why is it a better solution to reinforce gender instead of abolishing gender roles?
3. if gender is not necessarily tied to biological sex, why must people change their sex to match their gender?




justice said:


> Oh my god...



"oh my god" is not a response

i literally do not understand how my example is different from yours. you're acting like i understand transgender logic and am trying to troll you or something, when i legitimately don't. calling me stupid and violent is not going to change my mind (unless you just want a bunch of fake allies who align themselves with whatever is popular on tumblr, which i think you might?)




justice said:


> You do agree with violence against trans people. Denying their identity is an act of violence. Denying trans women safety is an act of violence.
> 
> This is what your group of stupid feminists seek out.
> 
> ...



why can someone "just know" they are transgender, but not transracial or anything else? the logic behind them is EXACTLY the same. it used to be believed that black and white people had different brains. i will continue to hold this view until someone explains how "girl" can be a state of mental being.

as i have said multiple times, male and female BATHROOMS and CHANGEROOMS (also some sports) should be segregated based on biological sex because they have different body parts. NO OTHER PLACES should be separate. if a transwoman is really a woman, she will express that in all other aspects of her life. having to use a toilet on the left side of the hallway instead of the right should not be the issue that makes or breaks her identity, because that is literally saying woman=female man=male, which as far as i know is the opposite of what you believe

can a nazi run around killing people, and then say they are the victim because "americans want to imprison us" and "nazis are literally being murdered for their beliefs"? yes, that was a terrible example and no, i don't believe trans people are worse than nazis or anything. but if i had never heard of a nazi and that was all people told me when i asked what they were, how would i know the difference? you have provided reasons why TERFs are evil (actually only one reason, but i digress) but have not seen a reason to believe in trans people's identities other than "but TERFs are mean!"

i mean, your entire post was just you restating "it's mean to be mean1!" in a bunch of different ways. were you actually trying to convince me of something or not?

i assume you're a liberal based on your posts. since liberals are "mean" to conservatives, should we all become conservatives instead without taking a second to look at each side's beliefs?


----------



## Watchingthetreetops (Aug 27, 2015)

I would just like to point out: men have always had the right to vote.  Women had to fight for that.  Men have always been paid more then women, despite women doing the same work. 

There is a reason feminism exists, and women are not treated as equally as men.  Men have issues, but in areas where things like equality have little to no meaning, men are dominating and degrading women.  I moved from Iowa to Texas...and let me tell you, working in retail here is...is like working with EXACTLY the type of men that women fear.  The type of men who want us in the kitchen, doing nothing more then cooking and having babies.  Or at least, that's what my job is like.  They cringe at the thought of a strong woman and demean women constantly.  I mean...men have issues too, but they are dominant therefore they are able to get away with more.  When a woman stands and tries to be strong there is army of both men and women ready to aim and fire at her, because a)eeeew, feminism, I bet she's an extremist and b)EVEN OTHER WOMEN ARE AFRAID TO STAND ON THEIR OWN BECAUSE THEY'VE BEEN TAUGHT TO PLEASE MEN AND ONLY MEN AND DEMEAN WOMEN FOR STANDING AGAINST THAT.

*ahem*  I'm sorry.  I can't stop ranting this morning.


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 27, 2015)

You're mainly just throwing out a lot of generalizations.

Not all men are dominant over women.

Not all men are twisted to think that women are objects or that they belong in the kitchen.

Not all women believe that their supposed to be submissive and please men.

I understand that these are your experiences but you can't simply pin it on everyone. It insults both women and men.


----------



## RhinoK (Aug 27, 2015)

Watchingthetreetops said:


> Men have always been paid more then women, despite women doing the same work.



The wage gap is a myth today in places like the USA and UK.


----------



## Oblivia (Aug 27, 2015)

Hey guys.  Just another reminder to please refrain from making personal attacks or hurling insults at one another.  It's fine to have a different viewpoint and equally fine to explain why you feel a certain way, but there's no need to name call or be rude even if someone feels differently than you about a certain subject.  Being passionate about something is great and that's why I'm inclined to leave this thread open (for now) as it is generating some great discussion, but please remember to respect one another in your posts, and take it to PMs if you MUST argue.

I understand that it's frustrating when someone just won't see your point of view no matter how hard you try to drive it into their brains, but in these situations it's normally best to just agree to disagree and walk away.


----------



## RhinoK (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> You're mainly just throwing out a lot of generalizations.
> 
> Not all men are dominant over women.
> 
> ...



You do realise feminists are probably going to mock you for using 'not all men', and then go on to say 'not all feminists are...'? Maybe I am throughout out a generalisation, but it's something I have seen over and over again


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 27, 2015)

piimisu said:


> You're trying to equate the struggles of men and women to be equal
> No they aren't
> Men have issues too. The point is,
> Yes men's issues in society are important! But overall, men dominate in society, which is why before solving their issues, we need women to be treated as equals. There's never been a time when men were viewed as inferior to women in a GENERAL way. And that's the whole point in feminism, but you people come into this thread, and as soon as someone says something about double standards or anything, you jump to "it happens to men too" (please see: ALL LIVES MATTER)
> ...



okay yeah, but if feminism is going to do stuff to help men specifically the name should be changed. that's like having a group called blackism (idk) help, say, underprivileged asian kids. yes they believe in equality and are doing the right thing, but by changing the name it will sound more inclusive and appealing.

the name feminism implies that all our issues will be solved by helping females in x way, when really the male perspective must also be considered. it is different from saying "all lives matter", because the issues black lives matter focus on are exclusive to balck people


----------



## Watchingthetreetops (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> You're mainly just throwing out a lot of generalizations.
> 
> Not all men are dominant over women.
> 
> ...



uh...yeah, maybe.  I didn't mean to, which is why I use things like 'types of men' instead of....all men.  My whole point has nothing to do with this, but that's okay.  And when I did use men, it was to point out that they get paid more and got to vote before us, which are facts, not generalizations.  My whole point here is to sort of....ease up this thread?  Throw out actualities, not generalizations, and again, I don't mean any offense to everyone.  But again, this might not be directed at me and if it's not then nevermind.

...facts are indisputable truths.  Men DO get paid more and men DID get to vote as a right.  Those are facts, not generalizations.


----------



## Tao (Aug 27, 2015)

piimisu said:


> You're trying to equate the struggles of men and women to be equal
> No they aren't




Again, as I've pointed out about 12 times now, I'm not trying to equate anybodies struggles to anybody else's. I'm merely pointing out that certain things happen to men as well as women whilst certain people seem to be under the impression that those certain things are exclusively for women.

That is not trying to equalize things, it's acknowledging that certain issues actually even exist in the first place since it's pretty much being  argued by certain people that they don't.

If I was trying to equalize I would be saying it happens 'just as badly' or 'it effects men just as much'. I'm just saying 'the issue exists'.




piimisu said:


> Men have issues too. The point is,
> Yes men's issues in society are important! But overall, men dominate in society, *which is why before solving their issues, we need women to be treated as equals.* There's never been a time when men were viewed as inferior to women in a GENERAL way. And that's the whole point in feminism, but you people come into this thread, and as soon as someone says something about double standards or anything, you jump to "it happens to men too" (please see: ALL LIVES MATTER)
> Alright sure let's say it does. But like I said before
> "overall, men dominate in society, which is why before solving their issues, we need women to be treated as equals. There's never been a time when men were viewed as inferior to women in a GENERAL way."




I also don't see why men need to sit on the back seat and wait for women to be treated fairly first. Why can't equality for both of them be worked on at the same time? 

It would be like to saying "All ethnicity's should be equal, but we'll work on those with African decent first since they deserve it more. Asians will have to wait their turn". Or "Wait your turn, cancer. We're reaserching AIDs this year".

Is there something I'm missing? Is there something physically stopping us from working towards equality for everybody at the same time?





piimisu said:


> And Im pretty sure kaylee only said that because people are being annoying as ***.



Doesn't really matter though, does it? If a Indian person annoys me, that doesn't make it okay for me to say "damn, I hate Indian's".


----------



## RhinoK (Aug 27, 2015)

Watchingthetreetops said:


> ...facts are indisputable truths.  Men DO get paid more and men DID get to vote as a right.  Those are facts, not generalizations.



Men DID get the right to vote, that's a fact. As for the wage gap...


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 27, 2015)

RhinoK said:


> Men DID get the right to vote, that's a fact. As for the wage gap...



not going to watch the video rn since i'm on my phone, but generally employers tell their employees not to discuss their wages and women are seen as less strong workers than men even when their performance is identical, so it is possible to still perpetrate the wage gap. like discrimination based on race is illegal, but nonwhite people still face prejudice in the workplacr


----------



## Ghost Soda (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> And that's why Feminism has a bad reputation...



I didn't realize kaylee represented all feminists in the whole world.



Watchingthetreetops said:


> I'm a bit...strange on this subject.  I don't believe in the....give me this because I am special mentality of a lot of groups these days.  For example, the new Ghostbusters movie sort of makes me sick.  They're treating the fact that their cast is female as a gimmick, which makes me skeptical.  Treating...being a woman as a trick to get people to watch your movie sort of defeats the point of writing about female characters.  It isn't about...make things female.  It's about: write females as characters.  We are not 'females' we are 'human', therefore having something say: LOOK WE HAVE FEMALES makes my stomach sick.  I don't want it as a gimmick, I want to be treated like my life is worth more then having babies and making families.  I am not the female love interest in my life, I am the main character and there is more to me then my uterus.
> 
> I much prefer aligning myself with the 'he for she' movement, because there is a lot less negativity surrounding it.  I will not blame men for the bad things that have happened to me, as I have made bad choices that involved men.  And men have made bad choices that involve me.  It isn't about being a woman or a man, it is about accepting that I am a female and I have male tendencies and this is all perfectly natural and okay, and He for She preaches not only this, but that men have female tenancies and that's okay, too.  NO ONE is here to be the property of someone else.  I am not meant to be someone else's side kick and that's it.  I am here to be me and I could care absolutely less what you have to think about it. If you think that being a woman somehow makes me less, go ahead and tell me.  I'm glad to remind anyone of how insignificant you and and all of your opinions are when compared to the universe.  When compared to the vastness of the universe, you and I are nothing more then arguing specs of dust.  So go ahead.  Tell me how much better you are then me.
> 
> ...



You shouldn't let the fact that feminism has a stigma around it stop you from using the term, it is about equality after all. I'm a feminist and I don't blame men for everything or think I'm a special snowflake.



pillow bunny said:


> snip



First of all, you clearly know nothing about anything you're talking about here.

Gender is not _'literally body parts'_, that's sex. Gender is more psychological. And if someone wants to be female rather than male or vice versa then who the hell are you to tell them it's wrong? It's their body, not yours. Why should they keep their birth gender if they know they'd be much happier as the opposite?


----------



## Princess (Aug 27, 2015)

Smh
Everyone in this thread acting like they're feminist... Feminism is about treating EVERYONE as equal. That includes men, and members of the trans community.

So seriously, stop or leave this thread. Because you are NOT feminist.


----------



## MozzarellaSticks (Aug 27, 2015)

This thread went exactly in the direction it always does. Sad.


----------



## Ghost Soda (Aug 27, 2015)

hariolari said:


> This thread went exactly in the direction it always does. Sad.



I though it was going well...


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 27, 2015)

Ghost Soda said:


> I didn't realize kaylee represented all feminists in the whole world.



I didn't say that at all.

What I'm saying is that the reason Feminism has such a bad rep is because of people that do this.


----------



## Ghost Soda (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> I didn't say that at all.
> 
> What I'm saying is that the reason Feminism has such a bad rep is because of people that do this.



True, but I also blame anti feminists for spreading such ignorant assumptions.


----------



## Celestefey (Aug 27, 2015)

Of course any thread or discussion involving feminism will turn sour. It makes me sad but... It doesn't surprise me.

Because people will always bring up the same points:

1) If feminism is about equal rights between genders, then why is it called "FEMinism" - kind of irrelevant as to what it's called, but yeah, the movement does focus mostly on female rights, but does also focus a fair amount on male rights too. If you didn't know that, then now you do. A real feminist will fight for the rights of everyone, regardless of their gender - if you don't believe in that, then you're not a feminist. Simple as...

2) "Feminists hate men" - see above. ^^ Unfortunately very very radical 'feminists' tend to represent what feminism stands for so people tend to just see it as that.

3) "Men have it just as bad as women" - yes, undoubtedly, men do have to suffer through a lot too and experience sexism too. Women do face a lot more problems than men, but that does not mean that a mans problems are invalidated. We all have to face a lot of injustices in our day to day lives and that doesn't mean that any one of them okay. 

4) "Feminism is not needed in 1st world countries" - it is. Of course women in 3rd world countries are discriminated against MUCH more than in 1st world countries, but that does not mean it is still not needed in 1st world countries. Women are still discriminated against on a day to day basis. 

So seriously, guys, if you're going to come into this thread to just argue with one another or try to explain why you don't believe in feminism for the above reasons, then maybe you should do a bit more reading into the subject? 

Tl;dr - feminism is about the equal rights for all genders. That's what it focuses on - gender. For men, women, and those that don't fall into either category. Gah, why does it have to be so much more complicated than that?


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 27, 2015)

Ghost Soda said:


> True, but I also blame anti feminists for spreading such ignorant assumptions.



It has little to do with anti Femenists, and I'm not sure if you're claiming that I am one but I certainly am not. The problem is that the majority of people will see something negative once and it will stick in their head as that's just the way it is. For instance if there is a shooting and a rescue, the shooting will get talked about much more because of it's nature. The people that see this kind of thing most of the time aren't anti Feminists, but regular people. Sure, it's wrong and they should do their research, but that simply isn't what they'll do.


----------



## kayleee (Aug 27, 2015)

Literally my response to the men in this thread was in direct correlation to how ignorant they are acting
So basically just stating a fact 

And also rhinoK clearly your feelings ARE hurt


----------



## Ghost Soda (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> It has little to do with anti Femenists, and I'm not sure if you're claiming that I am one but I certainly am not. The problem is that the majority of people will see something negative once and it will stick in their head as that's just the way it is. For instance if there is a shooting and a rescue, the shooting will get talked about much more because of it's nature. The people that see this kind of thing most of the time aren't anti Feminists, but regular people. Sure, it's wrong and they should do their research, but that simply isn't what they'll do.



It has everything to do with them. If they would take two seconds to actually do some research into what feminism is instead of listening to the extremists and then generalizing all feminists based on that, then feminism might not have the stigma it has.

I didn't say you're anti feminist.



kayleee said:


> Literally my response to the men in this thread was in direct correlation to how ignorant they are acting
> So basically just stating a fact
> 
> And also rhinoK clearly your feelings ARE hurt



But it's unfair to say 'the men in this thread'. There are plenty of guys that are making good posts.


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 27, 2015)

Ghost Soda said:


> It has everything to do with them. If they would take two seconds to actually do some research into what feminism is instead of listening to the extremists and then generalizing all feminists based on that, then feminism might not have the stigma it has.
> 
> I didn't say you're anti feminist.



can you really blame them though? people should be able to know the purpose of a movement based on its name

although yeah, anti feminists are misogynistic and terrible


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 27, 2015)

Ghost Soda said:


> It has everything to do with them. If they would take two seconds to actually do some research into what feminism is instead of listening to the extremists and then generalizing all feminists based on that, then feminism might not have the stigma it has.
> 
> I didn't say you're anti feminist.



You have to understand that this is simply how the world works. The population consists of around 90% followers and 10% leaders, which in turn means that people will simply see something, and follow it, just because of their nature. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that this is the case, and that fighting it the way you suggest is simply unreasonable and won't happen for a long, long time, until it becomes the norm, and the norm is controlled by that 90%.


----------



## kayleee (Aug 27, 2015)

Ghost Soda said:


> It has everything to do with them. If they would take two seconds to actually do some research into what feminism is instead of listening to the extremists and then generalizing all feminists based on that, then feminism might not have the stigma it has.
> 
> I didn't say you're anti feminist.
> 
> ...


Okay true. 2-3 people specifically


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> You have to understand that this is simply how the world works. The population consists of around 90% followers and 10% leaders, which in turn means that people will simply see something, and follow it, just because of their nature. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that this is the case, and that fighting it the way you suggest is simply unreasonable and won't happen for a long, long time, until it becomes the norm, and the norm is controlled by that 90%.



yeah somehow i doubt that only 10% of the population have brains and the rest are sheeps


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> You have to understand that this is simply how the world works. The population consists of around 90% followers and 10% leaders, which in turn means that people will simply see something, and follow it, just because of their nature. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that this is the case, and that fighting it the way you suggest is simply unreasonable and won't happen for a long, long time, until it becomes the norm, and the norm is controlled by that 90%.



Let's say for instance that my friend is on Facebook and sees a post about Feminists protesting an unfair high school dress code issue, and is looking through the comments, and one of the top comments is something along the lines of how men are terrible etc.

That will be the thing that sticks in their brain the most because it's something they doesn't understand, and when they think of Feminism that will be the first thing that comes to mind.

I would argue that this does not make them an anti Feminist, even though they now associate something negative when they hear about Feminism. All they know at that point is that the Feminist movement could be potentially harmful, and nothing else. They aren't anti Feminism, but they are unsure of it's purpose.

- - - Post Merge - - -



pillow bunny said:


> yeah somehow i doubt that only 10% of the population have brains and the rest are sheeps



I'm not saying that 90% are sheep, I'm simply saying that they're more apt to be the ones that go along with the crowd. You could argue against that but you see it everywhere in society.


----------



## Princess (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> Let's say for instance that my friend is on Facebook and sees a post about Feminists protesting an unfair high school dress code issue, and is looking through the comments, and one of the top comments is something along the lines of how men are terrible etc.
> 
> That will be the thing that sticks in their brain the most because it's something they doesn't understand, and when they think of Feminism that will be the first thing that comes to mind.
> 
> I would argue that this does not make them an anti Feminist, even though they now associate something negative when they hear about Feminism. All they know at that point is that the Feminist movement could be potentially harmful, and nothing else. They aren't anti Feminism, but they are unsure of it's purpose.



Definitely a good summary of the general thought process.
But I think we can all agree to be a more productive and progessive society, it's important whenever you see something that offends you the first step you take is self reflection.

Ask yourself, why does this offend me? Why is this person saying such things? Surely, it isn't as superficial as they hate a specific type of person for no reason. 

Then ask questions in a respectful manner. Try to understand that someone is saying something because they're hurt. Figure out why.

If in the end there is literally no valid reason, then proceed to write that person off. 

But more than half the time, I can guarantee you, you'll learn something new.


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 27, 2015)

@Ashtot that's kind of an elitist and one-sided mentality though. it seems that whenever someone expresses an opinion that's outside the norm they're basically considered free to attack, so people just feel it's safer to stick with the crowd. like it's not inherent, it's just a result of society

- - - Post Merge - - -



Princess said:


> Smh
> Everyone in this thread acting like they're feminist... Feminism is about treating EVERYONE as equal. That includes men, and members of the trans community.
> 
> So seriously, stop or leave this thread. Because you are NOT feminist.



people who identify as trans should be treated equally, ie they should not be discriminated against, use spaces for members of their biological sex until they transition, and be discouraged from sawing off their body parts (as should everyone else)


----------



## Ghost Soda (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> Let's say for instance that my friend is on Facebook and sees a post about Feminists protesting an unfair high school dress code issue, and is looking through the comments, and one of the top comments is something along the lines of how men are terrible etc.
> 
> That will be the thing that sticks in their brain the most because it's something they doesn't understand, and when they think of Feminism that will be the first thing that comes to mind.
> 
> ...



True, they would only be anti feminist in my book if they start going around saying all feminists are man haters based off that one instance. [and also stupid.]

I just want to go against the whole process of people judging a entire group based off of the extremists.



pillow bunny said:


> @Ashtot that's kind of an elitist and one-sided mentality though. it seems that whenever someone expresses an opinion that's outside the norm they're basically considered free to attack, so people just feel it's safer to stick with the crowd. like it's not inherent, it's just a result of society
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



Which brings me back to why, if someone wants to change their sex, does it matter to you?


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 27, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> @Ashtot that's kind of an elitist and one-sided mentality though. it seems that whenever someone expresses an opinion that's outside the norm they're basically considered free to attack, so people just feel it's safer to stick with the crowd. like it's not inherent, it's just a result of society



This is what happens though. A prime example is in schools. There's that guy who dresses nice and gets ridiculed by someone, and then a group of others join in. It's just what happens, even though it's completely wrong.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Ghost Soda said:


> I just want to go against the whole process of people judging a entire group based off of the extremists.



I agree with you, I simply was trying to explain that as much as you and I would like that, there will always be those people, and expecting them to magically become more educated is unreasonable, as bad as that sounds. I'm not trying to put people down at all, I'm just saying that it happens.


----------



## Princess (Aug 27, 2015)

*Why being Transracial is not okay*

Just wanted to post this since I saw some posts defending being transracial using the old argument that if trans people can exist so can trans racial.

Ok first of all, being trans racial means you identify as a race that is not your own.
Let me clarify and say, you are ALLOWED to have an interest in a different culture that is not your own. However, you will NEVER be that race you choose to identify with. Why? Because in order to be apart of that race, you must not only take on the aspects which you enjoy and find interesting, but you must also take on the negative stereotypes that members of that race face in their daily life. You will never be able to ever face the degree of discrimination a certain group faces, simply because you were never apart of that group to begin with. You can not pick and choose aspects of a culture that you like, and still benefit from your own culture. Even if you were born in a certain place where that race is prominent. 

For example, there are many whites born and living within India. Their nationality might be Indian, they may know nothing else but Indian culture, but they will *always benefit* from their white heritage, EVEN WHILE LIVING IN INDIA. They may go through the same struggles as many Indians do, but it will never be to same extent as someone who is an actual Indian.

_Now how is this different than being transgender????????_
Gender has a lot to do with our own personal experience, and how we perceive ourselves within the physical world. Gender is a social construct, which society has created in an attempt to box and categorize individuals. When in reality, gender is a very fluid thing, sort of like how sexuality is incredibly fluid.

Identifying as a certain gender is a LOT deeper than wanting to be a certain race because "whee I like henna and bindis"


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 27, 2015)

Ghost Soda said:


> Which brings me back to why, if someone wants to change their sex, does it matter to you?



it reinforces gender roles by saying that if a person acts x they must be a man and if they act y they must be a woman. i know there's people who have no choice but to transition because they'll kill themselves otherwise, but transitioning should really not be so heavily encouraged and treated as progressive.


----------



## Trundle (Aug 27, 2015)

Princess said:


> Definitely a good summary of the general thought process.
> But I think we can all agree to be a more productive and progessive society, it's important whenever you see something that offends you the first step you take is self reflection.
> 
> Ask yourself, why does this offend me? Why is this person saying such things? Surely, it isn't as superficial as they hate a specific type of person for no reason.
> ...



When the stigma of a movement is generally negative and "better than you because I'm a feminist" you have to question it's motives and what it really is trying to do. I support the idea of feminism - yet I do not support local feminists because of their poor attitude towards everyone around them and unprofessional methods of trying to bring about change.


----------



## Princess (Aug 27, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> @Ashtot that's kind of an elitist and one-sided mentality though. it seems that whenever someone expresses an opinion that's outside the norm they're basically considered free to attack, so people just feel it's safer to stick with the crowd. like it's not inherent, it's just a result of society
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



I'm sorry I'm not following your thought process. You're saying members of the trans community should be treated equally and not discriminated against....then you're voicing YOUR opinion on what they shouldn't to their OWN bodies. 

Are you told what to do with your own body? How in the heck is what you're saying treating them equal

- - - Post Merge - - -



Trundle said:


> When the stigma of a movement is generally negative and "better than you because I'm a feminist" you have to question it's motives and what it really is trying to do. I support the idea of feminism - yet I do not support local feminists because of their poor attitude towards everyone around them and unprofessional methods of trying to bring about change.



Is the stigma generally negative though? Before I indulged myself into the world of feminism, what I found negative was simply society's view on women. "Oh what pms-y *****es" 
I agreed, without really understanding why. Until I started questioning it, and learned about feminism I had no idea what an accepting movement feminism really is.

Super bad analogy but it's sort of like how when you're younger a lot of people perceive republicans and "bad". When really, the world isn't that black and white.


----------



## Ghost Soda (Aug 27, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> it reinforces gender roles by saying that if a person acts x they must be a man and if they act y they must be a woman. i know there's people who have no choice but to transition because they'll kill themselves otherwise, but transitioning should really not be so heavily encouraged and treated as progressive.



Except it has _nothing to do with gender roles_! People don't go 'oh, I like sports instead of dolls, better become a boy!', they suffer from gender dysmorphia and feel like they were born in the wrong body. If changing their gender keeps them from depression, then why the hell shouldn't it be encouraged?


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 27, 2015)

Princess said:


> Just wanted to post this since I saw some posts defending being transracial using the old argument that if trans people can exist so can trans racial.
> 
> Ok first of all, being trans racial means you identify as a race that is not your own.
> Let me clarify and say, you are ALLOWED to have an interest in a different culture that is not your own. However, you will NEVER be that race you choose to identify with. Why? Because in order to be apart of that race, you must not only take on the aspects which you enjoy and find interesting, but you must also take on the negative stereotypes that members of that race face in their daily life. You will never be able to ever face the degree of discrimination a certain group faces, simply because you were never apart of that group to begin with. You can not pick and choose aspects of a culture that you like, and still benefit from your own culture. Even if you were born in a certain place where that race is prominent.
> ...



transracial = i like this culture and the stereotypes associated with it. i am a now member of this culture.
transgender = i like this gender and the stereotypes associated with it. i am a now member of this gender.

there is no "state of being female". decisions that someone is transgender are based SOLELY on stereotypes, because all biological sex differences (if any) are extremely minor and. people who identify as trans associate themselves with the STEREOTYPES aimed at the other sex (eg. people who identify as transwomen because they like shopping, or people who identify as transmen because they like sports). if these stereotypes ("genders") did not exist, people would now have to modify their bodies to act like themselves.

gender is a social construct that should be done away with, rather than reinforced.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Ghost Soda said:


> Except it has _nothing to do with gender roles_! People don't go 'oh, I like sports instead of dolls, better become a boy!', they suffer from gender dysmorphia and feel like they were born in the wrong body. If changing their gender keeps them from depression, then why the hell shouldn't it be encouraged?



except it's not

there's little girls who think they must be boys because they don't want to play with dolls. they don't have a godlike understanding of the universe and the origins of gender -- they just believe it because they are being told that a boy is someone who likes sports, and a girl is someone who likes dolls. even teenagers and adults have trouble breaking away from these roles because they are so deeply ingrained in our culture and society.

yes, transitioning keeps them from depression, but they would not have depression in the first place if gender roles did not exist.

- - - Post Merge - - -

they suffer from dysphoria due to gender roles, even if they don't realize it


----------



## Princess (Aug 27, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> transracial = i like this culture and the stereotypes associated with it. i am a now member of this culture.
> transgender = i like this gender and the stereotypes associated with it. i am a now member of this gender.
> 
> there is no "state of being female". decisions that someone is transgender are based SOLELY on stereotypes, because all biological sex differences (if any) are extremely minor and. people who identify as trans associate themselves with the STEREOTYPES aimed at the other sex (eg. people who identify as transwomen because they like shopping, or people who identify as transmen because they like sports). if these stereotypes ("genders") did not exist, people would now have to modify their bodies to act like themselves.
> ...


yikes, you realize culture =/= race right?

Also I understand what you're trying to say but no. Even with gender roles abolished, people would STILL identify as trans due to SEX, not GENDER.


----------



## Trundle (Aug 27, 2015)

Princess said:


> Is the stigma generally negative though? Before I indulged myself into the world of feminism, what I found negative was simply society's view on women. "Oh what pms-y *****es"
> I agreed, without really understanding why. Until I started questioning it, and learned about feminism I had no idea what an accepting movement feminism really is.
> 
> Super bad analogy but it's sort of like how when you're younger a lot of people perceive republicans and "bad". When really, the world isn't that black and white.



I don't have enough experience to speak for other age groups, but teens to young adults there is a pretty poor stigma where I am from. Although, if the people around you were saying things like what you said above it was probably just best to re-evaluate the friends you have. Most of my friends would not consider themselves feminists but treat everyone equal (to the extent any human can) and are way less prejudiced or entitled than other people I know who supposedly fight for equality. 

I'm not saying it's always the case. But there is a lot of hypocrisy when it comes to this topic. I think that all opinions should be respected regardless of whether or not they are feminist and regardless of race, gender, etc. You are free to disagree with them, but no one person or one group has the power to invalidate someone's thoughts and feelings.


----------



## Princess (Aug 27, 2015)

Trundle said:


> I don't have enough experience to speak for other age groups, but teens to young adults there is a pretty poor stigma where I am from. Although, if the people around you were saying things like what you said above it was probably just best to re-evaluate the friends you have. Most of my friends would not consider themselves feminists but treat everyone equal (to the extent any human can) and are way less prejudiced or entitled than other people I know who supposedly fight for equality.
> 
> I'm not saying it's always the case. But there is a lot of hypocrisy when it comes to this topic. I think that all opinions should be respected regardless of whether or not they are feminist and regardless of race, gender, etc. You are free to disagree with them, but no one person or one group has the power to invalidate someone's thoughts and feelings.



Definitely! I think people nitpick too much about what word to use (feminism vs egalitarianism), at the end of the day it should just be about treating everyone equally regardless of what they identify with.


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 27, 2015)

Princess said:


> yikes, you realize culture =/= race right?
> 
> Also I understand what you're trying to say but no. Even with gender roles abolished, people would STILL identify as trans due to SEX, not GENDER.



yeah i just got like 2 hours of sleep last night so it's messing up my synonyms

with gender roles, (a few) people would identify as trans, but they would be treated the same way as others who want to remove their body parts. "i want to cut off my arm" and "i want to cut off my genitals" would be thought of the same way by the general public, that is, as unnecessary self mutilation.

- - - Post Merge - - -

*without


----------



## piichinu (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> You're mainly just throwing out a lot of generalizations.
> 
> Not all men are dominant over women.
> 
> ...



If youre talking about what I said, yes it's a male dominated society where women aren't in charge, in a general way (ex: not specific abilities)


----------



## Princess (Aug 27, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> yeah i just got like 2 hours of sleep last night so it's messing up my synonyms
> 
> with gender roles, (a few) people would identify as trans, but they would be treated the same way as others who want to remove their body parts. "i want to cut off my arm" and "i want to cut off my genitals" would be thought of the same way by the general public, that is, as unnecessary self mutilation.
> 
> ...



Look pillow bunny, I like a lot of things that follow under the stereotype of being "boy things". However, I identify as the gender given to me at birth which is female. 
Saying what you're saying, is dismissing the experiences a lot of people within the trans community have faced. Just because someone who is a transwoman, likes shopping, makeup and stereotypical "girl things" does not mean their hobbies are the reason they've transitioned or the reason they identify as a woman.


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 27, 2015)

piimisu said:


> If youre talking about what I said, yes it's a male dominated society where women aren't in charge, in a general way (ex: not specific abilities)



not long ago, both genders believed that men were superior
now both are trying to change for the better


----------



## Ghost Soda (Aug 27, 2015)

> except it's not
> 
> there's little girls who think they must be boys because they don't want to play with dolls. they don't have a godlike understanding of the universe and the origins of gender -- they just believe it because they are being told that a boy is someone who likes sports, and a girl is someone who likes dolls. even teenagers and adults have trouble breaking away from these roles because they are so deeply ingrained in our culture and society.
> 
> yes, transitioning keeps them from depression, but they would not have depression in the first place if gender roles did not exist.



That's not gender dysmorphia, then. I'm talking about people who experience real gender dysmorphia because they feel they should be one gender but are the opposite. It has nothing to do with 'boys do this, girls do this', it's about what their body is like, and not having gender roles wouldn't change the fact that their biological sex doesn't match up with the sex they feel they should be, not because they like basket ball instead of dolls, but because they feel wrong in their current body.



> they suffer from dysphoria due to gender roles, even if they don't realize it









Please, tell me more about how you know more about gender dysmorphia than _someone who's actually experienced it._


----------



## Princess (Aug 27, 2015)

Gentle reminder to everyone voicing their opinion about a group they are not apart of.
Your opinion, on your privileged pedestal does not outweigh the voices from members of the specific group who are speaking from experience.


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 27, 2015)

Princess said:


> Look pillow bunny, I like a lot of things that follow under the stereotype of being "boy things". However, I identify as the gender given to me at birth which is female.
> Saying what you're saying, is dismissing the experiences a lot of people within the trans community have faced. Just because someone who is a transwoman, likes shopping, makeup and stereotypical "girl things" does not mean their hobbies are the reason they've transitioned or the reason they identify as a woman.



so do i. i like "male" and "female" things, not because i'm transwhatever, but because i'm a human and have a personality.

i think it's not more "i fit into x stereotype more than y stereotype", but "i don't fit into x stereotype". there are women today who live in extremely sexist areas, and know that they are more than their gender stereotype, so they tell themselves they are trans as a coping mechanism. because they feel they are a human, and people of thier gender are stereotyped so much they do not seem to be humans.

the whole "not supporting trans people is evil" idea is just... wrong, because it's the only way to move away from gender roles.

sorry for using the transracial metaphor so much, but let's say instead of promoting the idea that black and white people were completely equal, society said that "blacks and whites are different, though neither is better or worse". black people with stereotypical "white" traits (desire for success, intelligence, etc.) would be "transwhite", white people with stereotypical "black" traits would be "transblack". yes, this would be excellent for designated black at birth(?) people during the early days of pseudoequality, but not for the long term. racial stereotypes against black people would be alive and well, perhaps even more so than they were in the past.


----------



## visibleghost (Aug 27, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> transracial = i like this culture and the stereotypes associated with it. i am a now member of this culture.
> transgender = i like this gender and the stereotypes associated with it. i am a now member of this gender.
> 
> there is no "state of being female". decisions that someone is transgender are based SOLELY on stereotypes, because all biological sex differences (if any) are extremely minor and. people who identify as trans associate themselves with the STEREOTYPES aimed at the other sex (eg. people who identify as transwomen because they like shopping, or people who identify as transmen because they like sports). if these stereotypes ("genders") did not exist, people would now have to modify their bodies to act like themselves.
> ...



wtf are u even trying to say??? ok so 1. don't talk as if you know what trans people are going through if you're cis. 2. gender does exist and even though it maybe would be better if it didn't, it does. 

i, as a trans person, am pretty sure that most people who identify as trans do not do so because they like things that society says that another gender likes.
like. that doesn't really happen.

do we need to get away from gender roles and start telling people that it is okay to be whoever they are no matter how they dress, what they do, and what they like? hell ye!! should gender have to have so much impact on our lives as it has?? heck no!!! should gender exist?? yEAh. 
gender is a social construct, but it is one that we have lived with for so long. and people feel connected to it!! and that's totally alright. gender should be allowed to exist, but gender should also never be forced upon anybody. to many trans people their gender(s)/nongender is very important, and that should be respected. many cis people like their gender too :>

and??? the transracial thing??? ok so gender is a social construct but race is not. race is something you are born with, it's in your blood and stuff
gender is not. easy!!!


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 27, 2015)

Ghost Soda said:


> That's not gender dysmorphia, then. I'm talking about people who experience real gender dysmorphia because they feel they should be one gender but are the opposite. It has nothing to do with 'boys do this, girls do this', it's about what their body is like, and not having gender roles wouldn't change the fact that their biological sex doesn't match up with the sex they feel they should be, not because they like basket ball instead of dolls, but because they feel wrong in their current body.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



they feel wrong in their current bodies because they are being told that what they are doing is wrong for a person with their body, therefore they must have been born in the wrong body.

you have offered no alternative theory.

- - - Post Merge - - -



lencurryboy said:


> wtf are u even trying to say??? ok so 1. don't talk as if you know what trans people are going through if you're cis. 2. gender does exist and even though it maybe would be better if it didn't, it does.
> 
> i, as a trans person, am pretty sure that most people who identify as trans do not do so because they like things that society says that another gender likes.
> like. that doesn't really happen.
> ...



gender is wrong and harming society. we should not keep it because of "tradition". should we also keep ableism, sexism, and racism because they are a part of our society?

racial stereotypes are a social construct. biological sex and race are both something you are born with and cannot change, but should have no effect on your life.

- - - Post Merge - - -

brb walking my dog


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 27, 2015)

Okay I think we should maybe steer away from this discussion since pillow is not going to change their stance.


----------



## piichinu (Aug 27, 2015)

The main point I've been trying to make is 
MEN
-equality-
WOMEN​
Women are the ones who are IN GENERAL treated as inferior, in order to achieve equality, women need more rights and respect (not just USA) - men don't need as much work and help as the women do. Im not saying men shouldn't be respected. If you don't get it reAd my message again. They don't need it /as much/. They're already the people on top of the leaderboard. The issues men face are real and I accept that - however those issues aren't showing men as inferior to women.
I am not saying men don't struggle. They do. Just not as much. Feminism addresses that as well, my issue is with people who won't admit that women are globally suffering more and they try to say "men have it just as bad, get over it." Men aren't being forced to marry at age 10. They're allowed to keep their possessions and vote everywhere across the world. They can get away with rape if a woman doesn't have five witnesses. 

I'm going to keep repeating this: I know men have issues too, I know. I k-n-o-w. That isn't my point.


----------



## Princess (Aug 27, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> so do i. i like "male" and "female" things, not because i'm transwhatever, but because i'm a human and have a personality.
> 
> i think it's not more "i fit into x stereotype more than y stereotype", but "i don't fit into x stereotype". there are women today who live in extremely sexist areas, and know that they are more than their gender stereotype, so they tell themselves they are trans as a coping mechanism. because they feel they are a human, and people of thier gender are stereotyped so much they do not seem to be humans.
> 
> ...



*please don't say "transwhatever"*


AGAIN, people do not transition because of stereotypes. Please educate yourself on the trans community a little more, as saying what you're saying is incredibly insensitive and is dismissing the real experiences members of the community have faced. Chalking it up to something so, _simplistic_ is incredibly disrespectful. 

I don't understand why you're bringing racism up. That is a whole different playing field, but since we're here:
All these "good" or rather "white" qualities you're listing derive from institutionalized racism and will NEVER EQUATE to the experiences members of trans community face when feeling dysmorphic within their bodies. You are trying to compare apples and oranges, and frankly I find this incredibly rude. 
May not be your intention, but I'm just letting you know your constant dismissal of the very real experiences minorities in this world face is not appreciated at all.


----------



## Jamborenium (Aug 27, 2015)

removed​


----------



## MozzarellaSticks (Aug 27, 2015)

The movement was not discredited by feminists. It was discredited by those _outside_ the movement. Those who opposed feminism are the reason it's seen negatively and has negative connotations. This is not unique to feminism. Every social equality movement has/is facing this. The easiest way to fight against social equality is to make it look like it isn't about equality. It's always happened, and always will happen.


----------



## Princess (Aug 27, 2015)

Nebudelic said:


> wow WTF why did a post of mine get removed? and I didn't even get a warning or anything telling me it was removed what the hell? please whoever removed the post explain to me why?​



Message the staff if you have questions about post removal, warnings etc. It's not a good idea to post in thread when something like that happens


----------



## Ghost Soda (Aug 27, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> they feel wrong in their current bodies because they are being told that what they are doing is wrong for a person with their body, therefore they must have been born in the wrong body.
> 
> you have offered no alternative theory.



They feel wrong in their current bodies because they feel wrong in them. It has nothing to do with what they're being told, just that their body feels wrong.

And unless you've experienced gender dysmorphia before, and I'm betting all my money that you didn't, neither you or I have any say in what a transgender person should or shouldn't do with their body. And that's all I'm gonna say on this topic.


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 27, 2015)

hariolari said:


> The movement was not discredited by feminists. It was discredited by those _outside_ the movement. Those who opposed feminism are the reason it's seen negatively and has negative connotations. This is not unique to feminism. Every social equality movement has/is facing this. The easiest way to fight against social equality is to make it look like it isn't about equality. It's always happened, and always will happen.



I disagree. There are definitely people that claim to be Feminists who are extremists that discredit the movement, and are "inside".

The same goes for other major groups such as religion or politics.

For instance there are radical Christians that are inside the movement that discredit it, as well as Muslims and other religions.

When it comes to politics there are always radicals as well who are seen as inside the movement but tarnish the name of a party or a political stance etc.


----------



## Jamborenium (Aug 27, 2015)

Princess said:


> Message the staff if you have questions about post removal, warnings etc. It's not a good idea to post in thread when something like that happens



ah okay I edited my post :'3 my bad

also what's the current status of this thread? is it still going smoothly
or did it just go into a downward spiral?​


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 27, 2015)

Nebudelic said:


> removed​



The site has been kinda buggy lately so it's possible it was a glitch or something too.


----------



## Princess (Aug 27, 2015)

hariolari said:


> The movement was not discredited by feminists. It was discredited by those _outside_ the movement. Those who opposed feminism are the reason it's seen negatively and has negative connotations. This is not unique to feminism. Every social equality movement has/is facing this. The easiest way to fight against social equality is to make it look like it isn't about equality. It's always happened, and always will happen.



You nailed it right on the head.
Age old tactic to shift the attention away from the issue.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Ashtot said:


> I disagree. There are definitely people that claim to be Feminists who are extremists that discredit the movement, and are "inside".
> 
> The same goes for other major groups such as religion or politics.
> 
> ...



But there are extremists in every group, and we all acknowledge that. So why do we only give attention to those individuals?


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 27, 2015)

Princess said:


> You nailed it right on the head.
> Age old tactic to shift the attention away from the issue.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> ...



I don't know. Like I said in an earlier post is that negativity seems to always get more attention than positivity, especially in the media.


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 27, 2015)

Princess said:


> *please don't say "transwhatever"*
> 
> 
> AGAIN, people do not transition because of stereotypes. Please educate yourself on the trans community a little more, as saying what you're saying is incredibly insensitive and is dismissing the real experiences members of the community have faced. Chalking it up to something so, _simplistic_ is incredibly disrespectful.
> ...



all gender roles derive from institutionalized sexism

what are these real experiences? "i am a woman because i am"? how do you define woman?????


----------



## Princess (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> I don't know. Like I said in an earlier post is that negativity seems to always get more attention than positivity, especially in the media.



But isn't it interesting that extremists in groups that benefit the most privileged within society are dismissed as just radicals and are't given the most attention?


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 27, 2015)

Princess said:


> You nailed it right on the head.
> Age old tactic to shift the attention away from the issue.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> ...



because they are the vocal minority


----------



## Princess (Aug 27, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> all gender roles derive from institutionalized sexism
> 
> what are these real experiences? "i am a woman because i am"? how do you define woman?????



no one's denying institutionalized sexism exist, what's your point?

Identifying as a specific gender derives from something a lot deeper than gender roles. It has a lot to do with sex, which is biological. A woman is anyone who identifies as a woman. A man is anyone who identifies as a man.

Now, I'm going to ask you, if you're so sure that if gender roles were abolished there would be less transpeople. Then what about people who are intersex? What happens to them in your idea?


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 27, 2015)

Ghost Soda said:


> They feel wrong in their current bodies because they feel wrong in them. It has nothing to do with what they're being told, just that their body feels wrong.
> 
> And unless you've experienced gender dysmorphia before, and I'm betting all my money that you didn't, neither you or I have any say in what a transgender person should or shouldn't do with their body. And that's all I'm gonna say on this topic.



wow, literally 

i know people who thought they might be trans until they realized the very stuff i'm talking about now


----------



## Princess (Aug 27, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> because they are the vocal minority



That's not true at all. Everyone protesting in the Black Rights Movement is typically incredibly vocal and the majority aren't extremists so...

- - - Post Merge - - -



pillow bunny said:


> wow, literally
> 
> i know people who thought they might be trans until they realized the very stuff i'm talking about now



Being trans isn't as fluffy and pillow like you're making it out to be. It's not some choice for the way they feel, it's a reality.


----------



## laurenx (Aug 27, 2015)

i feel like its baloney feminism is even needed ?\_(ツ)_/?


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 27, 2015)

laurenx said:


> i feel like its baloney feminism is even needed ?\_(ツ)_/?



What do you mean?

_\_(ツ)_/?__\_(ツ)_/?__\_(ツ)_/?__\_(ツ)_/?__\_(ツ)_/?__\_(ツ)_/?__\_(ツ)_/?__\_(ツ)_/?__\_(ツ)_/?_


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 27, 2015)

Princess said:


> no one's denying institutionalized sexism exist, what's your point?
> 
> Identifying as a specific gender derives from something a lot deeper than gender roles. It has a lot to do with sex, which is biological. A woman is anyone who identifies as a woman. A man is anyone who identifies as a man.
> 
> Now, I'm going to ask you, if you're so sure that if gender roles were abolished there would be less transpeople. Then what about people who are intersex? What happens to them in your idea?



transracialism is based on institutionalized racism
transgenderism is based on institutionalized sexism

that doesn't even make sense. someone says they are a woman and that makes them one, but how do THEY determine that they are a woman?

intersex people are considered intersex, and are treated the exact same as everyone else because in a world without gender roles there would be no sex-based marketing or perhaps even pronouns


----------



## Princess (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> What do you mean?
> 
> _\_(ツ)_/?__\_(ツ)_/?__\_(ツ)_/?__\_(ツ)_/?__\_(ツ)_/?__\_(ツ)_/?__\_(ツ)_/?__\_(ツ)_/?__\_(ツ)_/?_



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq3abPnEEGE


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 27, 2015)

Princess said:


> That's not true at all. Everyone protesting in the Black Rights Movement is typically incredibly vocal and the majority aren't extremists so...
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



as you have said, it is the reality because it's how the feel
what


----------



## Princess (Aug 27, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> transracialism is based on institutionalized racism
> transgenderism is based on institutionalized sexism
> 
> that doesn't even make sense. someone says they are a woman and that makes them one, but how do THEY determine that they are a woman?
> ...


transracism does not exist. you can not benefit from your already existing race, and adopt another race solely for it's benefits.

you need to educate yourself a bit more on the concept of gender verses the concept of sex.

I think I'm starting to see your mentality. Are you the same kind of person who would say "I don't see colour!! We're all equal!" Because while that's lovely in theory, it's incredibly destructive as it invalidates the issues minorities go through.


----------



## laurenx (Aug 27, 2015)

if there was no name to the belief of woman equality (ex:_*feminism)*_) and woman in general just strived for equality there wouldn't be such a big hullabaloo on the situation ?\_(ツ)_/?


----------



## Ghost Soda (Aug 27, 2015)

Nebudelic said:


> ah okay I edited my post :'3 my bad
> 
> also what's the current status of this thread? is it still going smoothly
> or did it just go into a downward spiral?​



It's going better than I feared it would, tbh. If it had been another gaming forum, things would have been so much worse, I think.


----------



## Jarrad (Aug 27, 2015)

The only thing that technically related to feminism that pisses me off is the fact that some twits use feminism as a barrier against any sort of conflict or confrontation.

For example, the other day I confronted an incredibly ugly ignorant tumblr user that was being a misandrist basically in her every post, so then she responded to my confrontation by calling me a misogynist and insinuated that I was against feminism (aka equality). 

Seriously, if any female uses feminism as a defensive barrier to shield yourself whenever a male happens to argue/confront you, then please do not call yourself a feminist, because in reality you are not.

Another thing that ticks me off with "feminism" (quotation because I don't know whether this falls under that category) is that people often forget that not every woman is innocent. There are women that beat, kill, terrorise, torture and make false rape charges (essentially ruining someone's future and life) against men, and a lot of people fail to realise this when they make blog posts about the countless number of men murdering and beating up women, when in reality none of that really has any relation *at all* to feminism and what it stands for. All it's doing is victimising women and criminalising men, which is completely wrong because when people do this it's almost as if they're openly saying "This is what disgusting men do to us so let's all band together with "feminism" and petition against every man alive."

Feminism = Equality

What people often mistake feminism for = A group hellbent on hating men


----------



## RhinoK (Aug 27, 2015)

kayleee said:


> Literally my response to the men in this thread was in direct correlation to how ignorant they are acting
> So basically just stating a fact
> 
> And also rhinoK clearly your feelings ARE hurt



How are my feelings hurt? Are you making assumptions again? I think I know my feelings better than you sweety 

- - - Post Merge - - -



hariolari said:


> This thread went exactly in the direction it always does. Sad.



was there any doubt


----------



## Justin (Aug 27, 2015)

Nebudelic said:


> ah okay I edited my post :'3 my bad
> 
> also what's the current status of this thread? is it still going smoothly
> or did it just go into a downward spiral?​



I had a look and this is your only deleted post in this thread near the beginning:



> well I can't see this ending well at all



A couple mods have been watching this thread and a number of posts have been removed throughout, primarily near the beginning and middle of the thread. I didn't remove your post personally, but it's safe to assume it was deleted (alongside many similar ones on the first pages) because that kind of posting does not contribute to the thread at all, and only adds negative feelings to a thread before it even gets a chance to begin. I imagine you weren't given a warning because it's not really a big enough deal to warrant the trouble, and there were many similar posts from others as well.

And not to be rude, but the post I'm quoting here doesn't help either. There is no need for a meta discussion of the thread inside here, while an actual discussion is taking place. It's only going to derail things and it's not necessary.

I also acknowledge that this post I'm making right now isn't much different, but I feel it's worth posting here rather than PMing just to make the point clear for the entire thread so everyone understands. I'm happy to see the thread taking a turn towards civil discussion right now, so let's keep it that way!


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 27, 2015)

Princess said:


> transracism does not exist. you can not benefit from your already existing race, and adopt another race solely for it's benefits.
> 
> you need to educate yourself a bit more on the concept of gender verses the concept of sex.
> 
> I think I'm starting to see your mentality. Are you the same kind of person who would say "I don't see colour!! We're all equal!" Because while that's lovely in theory, it's incredibly destructive as it invalidates the issues minorities go through.



sex = biological sex; male, female, and intersex
gender = roles and stereotypes imposed on people due to their sex

is this not true?

i mean, i'm sure you agree that there would be less racism if we worked harder to eliminate racial segregation. gender roles are essentially sex-based segregation. people don't identify as transracial (except that one person) because (for the most part) we understand that behavioural differences and personalities are not determined by race. i believe this should be applied to biological sex as well, by eliminating gender.


----------



## Princess (Aug 27, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> sex = biological sex; male, female, and intersex
> gender = roles and stereotypes imposed on people due to their sex
> 
> is this not true?
> ...



no. gender does not = roles and stereotypes imposed on people due to their sex
gender has to do with self identification and is incredibly fluid.

there would be less racism if we abolished the racist societal norms sure. 
again you're comparing apples and oranges. The experiences a PoC face are different than the experiences they face if they were trans.

- - - Post Merge - - -

You know, the mods are watching this thread and cleaning as they go.
So continuing the post things like lolol falme war xD isn't really adding to the discussion, and is moving attention from the informative conversations going on within this thread. Just be courteous to the other users using this thread, please.


----------



## pillow bunny (Aug 27, 2015)

oops i died
also this probably makes no sense but idc

genders are forced onto people due to their biological sex.
gender roles are forced onto people due to their genders.

in almost EVERYWHERE, gender and biological sex are treated as the same. can 10 year old child brides in africa opt out by saying they identify as genderfluid? without gender, males and females would be treated the SAME. families would not allow a male child to go to school but not a female child. they would just both be kids, and their different genitals would be treated just like other different body parts, like hair and eye color.

when a baby is born, they are given a gender due to their sex. there are trans people because they feel they were assigned the wrong gender, because there are only two opposite extremes available, no compromise.

inventing ten billion new genders for self identification helps NO ONE because babies will still be forcibly given genders and then have to escape from them. if there weren't genders, everyone could do what they wanted without worrying about going out of their gender norm and having to choose a new gender.

you are using gender synonymously with personality. we do not sum up personalities in one or two words and have people use them to fully describe themselves. personalities are just a part of people that those who know and talk to them slowly learn. they are not meant to be identified and labelled.


----------



## That Zephyr Guy (Aug 27, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> oops i died
> also this probably makes no sense but idc
> 
> genders are forced onto people due to their biological sex.
> ...



What you're thinking of is the concept of being assigned a gender at birth.
Since babies aren't really sentient yet (they aren't capable of complex thought + communication), they can't understand what the concept of gender, sex, or basically anything is until they're older. 
It's a similar concept to how we give animals genders. Since animals aren't sentient and have no concept of gender in the first place, they _technically_ don't have a gender. Instead we colloquially refer to them by their sex instead.



And no, nobody in this thread is using gender synonymously with personality - if we were, then every tomboy would be a boy and every feminine man would be a woman, but that's not how it is. 

The thing to understand here is that *gender is a form of self-identification and feeling and sex is the body that you have.*\
Think of it like a computer: Gender is software, but Sex is hardware.


----------



## Princess (Aug 27, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> oops i died
> also this probably makes no sense but idc
> 
> genders are forced onto people due to their biological sex.
> ...


It doesn't help no one, it helps the people who are looking to put into words what they identify with.

Also your point on African babies...ok..? Homosexuality is still considered a horrible thing in many cultures, does that mean we should give up and not help people who don't identify as being heterosexual?


----------



## MrPicklez (Aug 27, 2015)

I believe in feminism, not Anita Sarkeesian-esque feminazi feminism, but I do think equality should be a thing.

MeninistTweet on Twitter is still the funniest **** I've ever read though.


----------



## kayleee (Aug 27, 2015)

MrKisstoefur said:


> I believe in feminism, not Anita Sarkeesian-esque feminazi feminism, but I do think equality should be a thing.
> 
> MeninistTweet on Twitter is still the funniest **** I've ever read though.



You and your beard are my fave


----------



## oswaldies (Aug 27, 2015)

Since I'm in a boys body people laugh at me for being a feminist (ノ_・。)


----------



## MozzarellaSticks (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> I disagree. There are definitely people that claim to be Feminists who are extremists that discredit the movement, and are "inside".
> 
> The same goes for other major groups such as religion or politics.
> 
> ...


Yeah, there are always extremists. There are extremists for everything. It's how it is. They don't represent a movement, and people know that. Think about why we stagmatize a certain group. Think about when the stigma came from. Think about who gets air time. There's a reason it's portrayed a certain way to us.

- - - Post Merge - - -



RhinoK said:


> How are my feelings hurt? Are you making assumptions again? I think I know my feelings better than you sweety
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...


You are honestly part of the reason it did, so no.


----------



## Watchingthetreetops (Aug 27, 2015)

That Zephyr Guy said:


> What you're thinking of is the concept of being assigned a gender at birth.
> Since babies aren't really sentient yet (they aren't capable of complex thought + communication), they can't understand what the concept of gender, sex, or basically anything is until they're older.
> It's a similar concept to how we give animals genders. Since animals aren't sentient and have no concept of gender in the first place, they _technically_ don't have a gender. Instead we colloquially refer to them by their sex instead.
> 
> ...



You explained it eloquently and I commend thee, sir.


----------



## Bowie (Aug 27, 2015)

I love how we had a religious thread and managed to keep it stable (surprisingly), but we can't even keep a thread about gender equality stable.


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 27, 2015)

Bowie said:


> I love how we had a religious thread and managed to keep it stable (surprisingly), but we can't even keep a thread about gender equality stable.



It's pretty stable right now, it would help if you didn't make unnecessary comments.


----------



## radical6 (Aug 27, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> i'm pretty sure this is meant to be a super cool shutdown post and force me into exile due to shame. but so far, you have not actually responded to any of my posts. you have just being calling me an idiot and a 13 year old. the whole trans thing makes no sense to me, but instead of trying to explain it you've just been insulting me.



Why should I explain anything to you? You refuse to take it seriously. You refuse to acknowledge body dysphoria is real. My body is mine, and what I choose to do with it is none of your concern. You cannot stop trans people from getting surgery. It's simple as that.

You want to know why I'm pissed as hell? Because you are throwing everything I've suffered in my face and saying it's not real. That I'm just a stupid ***** for believing I'm trans lol. 

You do not sympathize with me. You do not understand my pain. You are saying my pain isn't valid or real. That's why I'm so ****ing pissed.



pillow bunny said:


> as i have said multiple times, male and female BATHROOMS and CHANGEROOMS (also some sports) should be segregated based on biological sex because they have different body parts. NO OTHER PLACES should be separate. if a transwoman is really a woman, she will express that in all other aspects of her life. having to use a toilet on the left side of the hallway instead of the right should not be the issue that makes or breaks her identity, because that is literally saying woman=female man=male, which as far as i know is the opposite of what you believe



And what if a trans woman (notice the space) got surgery? Would you still deny her? 
There is no reason why pre transistioned trans women can't use the same room as cis women either. You really think a trans woman will go around showing her parts to everyone? What if she dressed as a woman, but you sent her to the males locker room? Think how easily she could get assaulted.



pillow bunny said:


> can a nazi run around killing people, and then say they are the victim because "americans want to imprison us" and "nazis are literally being murdered for their beliefs"? yes, that was a terrible example and no, i don't believe trans people are worse than nazis or anything. but if i had never heard of a nazi and that was all people told me when i asked what they were, how would i know the difference? you have provided reasons why TERFs are evil (actually only one reason, but i digress) but have not seen a reason to believe in trans people's identities other than "but TERFs are mean!"



Did you just...****ing compare me to nazis? What the **** is wrong with you?

TERFs aren't just mean, you ****ing idiot. They ****ing PASS LAWS AGAINST TRANS PEOPLE. They ****ing PREVENT TRANS WOMEN FROM GETTING HORMONES. They harass trans women. They want trans women to kill themselves. If you align yourself with this movement, then you are disgusting.

I have seen trans women get outed to the whole world by TERFs. For no reason other than being a trans woman. A TERF called up a girls doctor to prevent her from getting hormones.



pillow bunny said:


> i assume you're a liberal based on your posts. since liberals are "mean" to conservatives, should we all become conservatives instead without taking a second to look at each side's beliefs?



theres more than liberals and conservatives you goddamn dumbass. dont argue politics with me oh my god youre 13 and youre so stupid

- - - Post Merge - - -



Ashtot said:


> It's pretty stable right now, it would help if you didn't make unnecessary comments.



i ruined it


----------



## That Zephyr Guy (Aug 27, 2015)

Friend I realize what they're saying, but I think it's time for you to take a step from the computer and breathe a little. This kind of anger isn't healthy.


----------



## radical6 (Aug 27, 2015)

honestly i can nicely explain my views to most people, but terfs dont deserve any of my sympathy. unlike most people, they are ignorant by choice. they are transphobic by choice. i have talked to various people here and gotten them to understand my PoV, but terfs idk why i even bother because pillow clearly thinks she knows about MY body and MY life.

- - - Post Merge - - -



That Zephyr Guy said:


> Friend I realize what they're saying, but I think it's time for you to take a step from the computer and breathe a little. This kind of anger isn't healthy.


yeah i know im just pissed im usually calm anyway


----------



## Bowie (Aug 27, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> It's pretty stable right now, it would help if you didn't make unnecessary comments.



Are we looking at the same thread here?

Anyway, this escalated quickly. Nevertheless, it's very interesting to hear what people have to say about this particularly sensitive topic.


----------



## Watchingthetreetops (Aug 27, 2015)

I'm going to hush this down.

It's okay.  It isn't okay that any of us have to face these issues, it isn't okay that women had to fight for the right to vote, and it isn't okay that terrible, horrible things are happening as you read this.  But you, in front of your computer, are going to be okay.  Are you transgender?  Well, you'll figure it out, and I can't say for everyone, but I am here for anyone who needs someone.  If you'd like to talk about your issues and what you've faced, feel free to contact me, as I keep my doors open.  No, there are /a lot/ of things that aren't okay, but acting from a place of negativity in your heart might be more detrimental to your cause then beneficial, whatever the cause may be.

Feminism is real, supported by both men and women who believe in the rights of women.  Transgender is also a very real thing, although different then feminism, but transgender people can support the idea that women should be equal.  I mean no harm in my statements, I just want to calm the fires that started here.  Because feminism is not about...hatred.  There is anger, I won't deny that, because there are things women simply don't have because their sexual organs are on the inside.  But none of this is worth the effort of getting angry at one another.  We're a community here.  Let's resolve everything and let our differences subside.  Getting angry at one another won't fix anything, and will only make another throw away thread with leftover, frustrated people.

I'd hate for a thread about this topic to end this way.  And I'd like to see us, as a community, get along.  That's all.


----------



## radical6 (Aug 27, 2015)

Watchingthetreetops said:


> I'm going to hush this down.
> 
> It's okay.  It isn't okay that any of us have to face these issues, it isn't okay that women had to fight for the right to vote, and it isn't okay that terrible, horrible things are happening as you read this.  But you, in front of your computer, are going to be okay.  Are you transgender?  Well, you'll figure it out, and I can't say for everyone, but I am here for anyone who needs someone.  If you'd like to talk about your issues and what you've faced, feel free to contact me, as I keep my doors open.  No, there are /a lot/ of things that aren't okay, but acting from a place of negativity in your heart might be more detrimental to your cause then beneficial, whatever the cause may be.
> 
> Feminism is real, supported by both men and women who believe in the rights of women.  Transgender is also a very real thing, although different then feminism, but transgender people can support the idea that women should be equal.  I mean no harm in my statements, I just want to calm the fires that started here.  Because feminism is not about...hatred.  There is anger, I won't deny that, because there are things women simply don't have because their sexual organs are on the inside.  But none of this is worth the effort of getting angry at one another.  We're a community here.  Let's resolve everything and let our differences subside.  Getting angry at one another won't fix anything, and will only make another throw away thread with leftover, frustrated people.



well considering the fact i just got compared to nazis i got pretty ****ing angry. 

i actually do not care about rhinok/tao/ashtot being against feminism or whatever their stances are. i have more of a problem of people who identify within the movement and hold toxic violent views. 

its just sad for me to see. trans women helped build lgbt rights and feminism in the 60s, and now theyre pushed away to the side. 

i have never really cared for second wave feminism. thats what most terfs are, anyway. third wave feminism is by no means perfect, and most the time i find everyone too liberal (no im not a conservative i consider myself leftist. not naming my political ideas in this thread anyway) to care about it anymore. 

third wave feminism tries to put more focus on women of color than second wave feminism ever did. third wave feminism is trying to reach out more to trans women. third wave feminism is trying to help victims of rape and abuse more than second wave feminism ever did. including male victims. 

its just annoying to see people still pushing second wave feminism ideals


----------



## Watchingthetreetops (Aug 27, 2015)

I know.  And I understand where you're both coming from.  I'm not here to take sides.  I really just want to calm everyone down.  I believe in the good in feminism, and I believe that it is necessary.  I'm interested in everyone's opinion.  It's best to assume I lived under a rock for the first nineteen years of my life and only recently crawled out to see the world.  But I'd rather not like this thread to go down the path it's....well, gone down.  That's all.


----------



## piichinu (Aug 27, 2015)

This thread isn't even going badly what's everyone talking about


----------



## Jarrad (Aug 28, 2015)

justice said:


> Why should I explain anything to you? You refuse to take it seriously. You refuse to acknowledge body dysphoria is real. My body is mine, and what I choose to do with it is none of your concern. You cannot stop trans people from getting surgery. It's simple as that.
> 
> You want to know why I'm pissed as hell? Because you are throwing everything I've suffered in my face and saying it's not real. That I'm just a stupid ***** for believing I'm trans lol.
> 
> ...



Making posts like this is just going to get you an infraction. It's unnecessary. If you can't discuss the topic at hand in a civil manner then don't bother discussing it at all, because when people start using this type of hostility towards other users then that's when threads which actually have an interesting and engaging topic to discuss get closed.

Don't ruin this for the rest of us. Take your drama to your private messages. 

Also, if this is all a sensitive topic for you then I'd thoroughly recommend avoiding this thread, for your own benefit. Comments like you've made contribute nothing to this discussion.


----------



## pippy1994 (Aug 28, 2015)

I'm all for equal rights, but I do not label myself as a feminist. There's really no need for the label.
Personally I don't see a problem with equality as things are now, at least in Australia that is. As for some other countries, yes something needs to be done about equality.


----------



## PrincessSara (Aug 28, 2015)

what the holy mother of god is this thread and why is it not LOCKED?
I browsed all 32 pages of this hateful-minded TERF-teenager garbage and am utterly OUTRAGED at ALL the negative-minded transphobia it produced, the only non-trans person that had their head on straight seemed to be Princess.

I'd love to know why the mods are letting the first 25 or so pages of hate-crime nonsense stay how it is instead of just deleting this entire thread because it really is nothing more than that past page 2 or 3. Several peoples supposed 'education' on trans issues and the TERF-tirade march made me want to do unspeakable things to those that perpetuated this ridiculous BS. I come back from my friggin break from user-drama to THIS? are you ****ing KIDDING ME? 

*THESE FORUMS ARE NOT SAFE PLACES FOR ALL ITS MEMBERS. *

Honestly this thread makes me never want to come back here despite having met some wonderful people, but if transphobiac **** like this is going to be allowed to be posted, I'd be better to browse friggin one of the *chans than read this drivel as at least some of them SUPPORT trans rights and don't allow this ****.

Good Riddance to all those that made hateful or uneducated comments, you're all on my ****list and will never be talked to or seen during my browsing here again, so if you try and post on my trade threads or giveaways, you're not gonna get what you want. Stay the hell away from me.

Sincerely, A seriously pissed-off transgirl


----------



## Ashtot (Aug 28, 2015)

PrincessSara said:


> what the holy mother of god is this thread and why is it not LOCKED?
> I browsed all 32 pages of this hateful-minded TERF-teenager garbage and am utterly OUTRAGED at ALL the negative-minded transphobia it produced, the only non-trans person that had their head on straight seemed to be Princess.
> 
> I'd love to know why the mods are letting the first 25 or so pages of hate-crime nonsense stay how it is instead of just deleting this entire thread because it really is nothing more than that past page 2 or 3. Several peoples supposed 'education' on trans issues and the TERF-tirade march made me want to do unspeakable things to those that perpetuated this ridiculous BS. I come back from my friggin break from user-drama to THIS? are you ****ing KIDDING ME?
> ...



Thanks for helping make the thread better!


----------



## visibleghost (Aug 28, 2015)

pillow bunny said:


> sex = biological sex; male, female, and intersex
> gender = roles and stereotypes imposed on people due to their sex
> 
> is this not true?
> ...



It is true that people are given a gender upon their sex, and that they then have a ton of expectations put on them to behave "like that gender", aka gender roles and stereotypes. gender is not stereotypes tho

- - - Post Merge - - -

also sara u are right ):


----------



## Murray (Aug 28, 2015)

After reading through all the pages, it's a shame that this is being closed as there is some actual intelligent discussion. However, respecting your fellow members is a necessity, and unfortunately, there was not much of this going on.


----------

