# New feature request; pronouns!



## SheepMareep

So in our profiles currently we have a "gender" option with male, female, other, and undisclosed options. That's all fine and dandy but I think it would be nice for the forum to include a "pronoun" section visible on our forum posts (under the avatar maybe?)

Including your pronouns not only allows people to know how to address you properly, but also makes the community more open to our trans and nb friends! Normalizing asking someone's pronouns and saying your own even if you are cis is important to creating an inclusive and understanding community. 

Just wanted to put the idea out there! If this isnt the right area to post this please let me know

Edit: *INFORMATIONAL LINKS*

Helpful definitions regarding trans/nb/gender identity terms
Short FAQ on pronoun usage!


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## seliph

YES i would love this, it'd be nice to not have to display them in my title or signature.

also just a note to everyone out there: practice using they/them/their pronouns when you don't know someone's gender!! it avoids so much confusion and is so much neater than saying "him/her" "her/his" and the like. it's also about 1000000x easier for people to read.


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## SmoochsPLH

A good idea! Completely support!


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## LambdaDelta

sign me the **** up



seliph said:


> also just a note to everyone out there: practice using they/them/their pronouns when you don't know someone's gender!! it avoids so much confusion and is so much neater than saying "him/her" "her/his" and the like. it's also about 1000000x easier for people to read.



I do this so hard, I'll sometimes accidentally use gender neutral pronouns even when I know the person's gender


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## Stella-Io

Agree that we need more pronoun options, or an option to type out pronouns atleast in our profile.


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## Variety.Gamer 4438

seliph said:


> YES i would love this, it'd be nice to not have to display them in my title or signature.
> 
> also just a note to everyone out there: practice using they/them/their pronouns when you don't know someone's gender!! it avoids so much confusion and is so much neater than saying "him/her" "her/his" and the like. it's also about 1000000x easier for people to read.



Thnx for the tip! I always thought the they/them/their pronoun was reserved for the "other" gender, so I regularly just tried to keep away from it naturally, either that or I just say the person's username.


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## debinoresu

in total support! maybe ppl will stop assuming im a boy


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## seliph

greenfrog100 said:


> Thnx for the tip! I always thought the they/them/their pronoun was reserved for the "other" gender, so I regularly just tried to keep away from it naturally, either that or I just say the person's username.



they/them have always been a gender neutral pronoun for anyone, i'm willing to wager that everyone's used it as such even while totally unaware. "someone left *their* bag here" etc


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## debinoresu

seliph said:


> they/them have always been a gender neutral pronoun for anyone, i'm willing to wager that everyone's used it as such even while totally unaware. "someone left *their* bag here" etc



yep! i remember id lose points in my english class grammar tests because even as a child they/them felt more organic than "his or her," which even if you put inclusion aside is clunky and ive never genuinely used it. i proceeded to take the L and lose the few points every grammar test when "his or her" was the technical correct choice. sounds awful.

 i remember once i was talking to a friend who just didnt get singular they pronouns and said "oh yeah? so how does it even work gramatically? "they ate they's lunch?" like it was the most absurd thing in the world and i casually corrected her with "they ate THEIR lunch..." and she looked a bit shocked and felt stupid after. when you realize how simple and natural it is its just better in general


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## Celinalia

i'd love this option! even though i'm cis, it's always a great idea to normalize asking for pronouns. this should be a safe place for everyone


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## Peter

def on board with this too . we're a very inclusive community and i think it would be right for the site to show this as well


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## SheepMareep

greenfrog100 said:


> Thnx for the tip! I always thought the they/them/their pronoun was reserved for the "other" gender, so I regularly just tried to keep away from it naturally, either that or I just say the person's username.



This Is a very common misconception! (Note; I'm cis so if I make any mistakes please correct me!!!) But there isnt necessarily a single "other" gender alongside the male/female genders. Gender identity is more of a spectrum than cut and paste options that fit everyone. 

The use of they/them can be used as someone's specific pronouns, but I've had friends who have their own such as ae/aer or zy/zym to express how they feel regarding their gender identity. They/them can both be someone's preferred pronouns and used as almost an umbrella term for all gender identities! (Unless the specific person is uncomfy with it but that's uncommon) 

Using they/them even when referring to one person (i.e. "I heard that chai likes dogs! They have two!" As opposed to "I heard that chai likes dogs! She has two!") Is also very good for when you dont know someone's pronouns.


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## xara

i?m cis but i?m all for this idea!!


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## seliph

Irishchai said:


> This Is a very common misconception! (Note; I'm cis so if I make any mistakes please correct me!!!) But there isnt necessarily a single "other" gender alongside the male/female genders. Gender identity is more of a spectrum than cut and paste options that fit everyone.



yep, a lot of people mistakenly view nonbinary as the "third" option (with male and female being first and second) but that's not how it works. while nonbinary is an identity in itself it is also an umbrella term that so many other gender identities can fit under - agender/genderfluid being some common ones. there's also many people who, while not being fully male or fully female, don't wish to label themselves as nonbinary or as any gender identity and that's fine.

it's also very important to acknowledge that what we're discussing now is just the western gender binary. there are genders in other cultures that belong to entire different systems of genders and don't pertain to the very western system of male/female/nonbinary.


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## galactickat4240

I am here for this idea! It helps people know what to refer to one another as and keeps the community inclusive too!


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## oath2order

Stella-Io said:


> Agree that we need more pronoun options, or an option to type out pronouns atleast in our profile.



I mean

The biography section.


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## Zura

Just ask them or say them they or their.

- - - Post Merge - - -



oath2order said:


> I mean
> 
> The biography section.



This is also exists.


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## SheepMareep

oath2order said:


> I mean
> 
> The biography section.



Let's be honest who really goes and reads the biography section of everyone who they interact with. Having it on the side is way easier and will really make sure people have no excuse to misgender someone.


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## Zura

Irishchai said:


> Let's be honest who really goes and reads the biography section of everyone who they interact with. Having it on the side is way easier and will really make sure people have no excuse to misgender someone.



I don't know about others but I do. It makes sense if you're serious about pronouns tbh


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## seliph

oath2order said:


> I mean
> 
> The biography section.



yeah, except people just look at avatars/signatures and judge based on those. before adding mine to my header i'd get "she" all the time solely because i have a pink aesthetic and pink is still for girls apparently. it's an inconvenient extra 3 clicks that don't have to exist.



Zura said:


> Just ask them or say them they or their.



expecting everyone to ask peoples' pronouns before addressing them is incredibly unrealistic, not to mention it's time consuming. using they pronouns also isn't the usual for everyone just yet.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Zura said:


> It makes sense if you're serious about pronouns tbh



that's the problem, "if". not everyone is as careful and people being misgendered shouldn't be dependent on an "if"


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## Zura

seliph said:


> snip


People ask and get corrected in the real world so not much different. 




seliph said:


> that's the problem, "if". not everyone is as careful and people being *misgendered shouldn't be dependent* on an "if"


Is it really that big of a problemo? I honestly don't see the issue here. If someone misgenders you just correct them and move on. 

Am I missing something?


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## seliph

Zura said:


> People ask and get corrected in the real world so not much different.



yes but real life doesn't have the option to hover your pronouns above your head to avoid it. also correcting someone doesn't stop the discomfort it brings.



Zura said:


> Is it really that big of a problemo? I honestly don't see the issue here. If someone misgenders you just correct them and move on.
> 
> Am I missing something?



Yes you are missing something. Being misgendered, even if by accident, can cause extreme dysphoria in trans people and any step taken to avoid this is a step in the right direction.


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## Zura

seliph said:


> yes but real life doesn't have the option to hover your pronouns above your head to avoid it.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes you are missing something. Being misgendered, even if by accident, can cause extreme dysphoria in trans people and any step taken to avoid this is a step in the right direction.



I personally think you're overthinking this but Im also a CIS, straight, white, male, etc... so It really doesn't matter to me. Adios gracias!


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## seliph

Zura said:


> I personally think you're overthinking this but Im also a CIS, straight, white, male, etc... so It really doesn't matter to me. Adios gracias!



as you're a cis person i ask you to please listen to trans/nb people on issues that we face instead of debating us and telling us we are overthinking. these situations are not new to us.


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## tae

"it doesn't effect me so i don't see the issue" 
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


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## Zura

I apologize if it sounded like I was trying to "debate the issue", I was only trying to make sense of the situation because I was confused. Personally, I dont care either way and I've already stated my thoughts so I'm just gonna move on. 

You guys have a nice day 

- - - Post Merge - - -



tae said:


> *"it doesn't effect me so i don't see the issue"*


Well yes, exactly


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## xSuperMario64x

It would be especially nice because it's difficult to assume someone's gender, especially if their profile/aesthetic doesn't signify their gender. I remember when I first became active here again back in 2016 I had a lot of people call me he/him because my user/sig aesthetic generally doesn't have many feminine traits.

I've always called people they/them instead of assuming their gender if I don't know them very well. Not that it offended me when people thought I was a guy but it's much easier to ask the person their preferred pronouns or simply refer to them as they/them instead of assuming


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## deSPIRIA

i like this idea. it's just a nice option to have for anyone who wants it and i don't see anything wrong with that. it may not affect me personally as much as it would with others but i'd still like the option to specify my own more clearly. and if it bothers anyone so much it would likely be an optional thing to fill out on the sidebar


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## Stella-Io

oath2order said:


> I mean
> 
> The biography section.



I mean

For the gender section. To be able to type it out in the gender section if there wasn't an option to select the pronoun.

Or change the gender option to gender/pronoun option. Since in reality it doesn't actually have pronouns in it, it has male female or I think other and un-disclosed. That way also if someone doesn't know what pronoun is supposed to mean (like someone whose unfamiliar with that kind of stuff) they can select a gender option. I know that the whole she/her he/him they/them option is prob explainitory to most, but still have the male female and other options for those who want to use that.


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## SheepMareep

In response to this conversation I also want to make something clear.

Bell tree forums is a big forum-based community. It is difficult to ask someone their pronouns before talking to them since you dont know who you will interact with and they may not want to explain 24/7. some people also may not understand the use of pronouns due to lack of knowledge when it comes to trans/nb people and it could lead to some... transphobic comments... (i.e. "my profile picture shows I'm CLEARLY a girl!!! So its she/her duh!!!! Why would you even ask that's stupid) while we are typically an inclusive community there is going to be an influx of new players who may not be so kind joining the site.

Having it in the sidebar makes it easier for EVERYONE. Misgendering a person can make them experience dysphoria as stated above or dissociate and that can be a very scary and dangerous thing!

One of the professors in my school created the first trans/nb care model and made it very clear we as a society need to incorporate this into our daily conversation. Misgendering someone then having to be corrected can be damaging to someone still coming to terms with their own identity and struggling to feel as though they "fit" the mold of their gender identity. (Although nothing is strictly for one specific gender) When meeting someone you should identify your name and pronouns and ask the same of the other person. 

Being online allows us to show that information without asking. We can avoid misgendering someone all together! Skip that possibly upsetting step 100%.


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## Limon

I don't get why people would be against an option that makes other users more comfortable. Not to mention it would be easier than having to click on someone's page and read their About Me, or having to write pronouns elsewhere. I'm all for this feature!


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## LadyDestani

I would be fine with having this as an option.  As someone who is cisgender, it's not really something that affects me personally, but I always try to be aware of how I am referring to others when I don't know them.  Even without taking into account the other gender identities that exist, it can be difficult to tell if a person is even male or female on an online forum.  I don't usually spend much time worrying over things like that and generally just refer to a person by their name/username to avoid any potential confusion or offense, but I can see where this would be a nice option for those who are concerned about being misgendered.


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## Dinosaurz

I don?t think it?s much of an issue honestly I don?t see why we need to change for it


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## Lavamaize

I agree with Dinosourz. I usually refer to people by their usernsmes so it is not much of a problem for me. I completely respect those who would want this though. In my opinion I think people are kind enough to usually try to refrain from assuming when talking and usually no one gets too upset with you if you accidentally called them by the wrong gender. I think adding this pronoun thing would be a bit weird telling people what to call them as they usually already know and people might abuse this feature by putting in somthing weird if you type whatever pronoun you want like "popcorn" and be more of a problem if someone called them by the wrong pronoun as they would think they did it on purpose. I am not against people who want this or anything, I just think it's not necessary.


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## RedTropicalPeachyFish

I'm not opposed to it but personally I feel like it's subtle for a couple reasons.



Irishchai said:


> Bell tree forums is a big forum-based community. It is difficult to ask someone their pronouns before talking to them since you dont know who you will interact with and they may not want to explain 24/7.


While it's not so hard to assume it could make you uncomfortable when you're trans and misgendered, and also it could be awkward to explain those things to people unless it's to someone who you trust or being friends with, I think it should be resolved through interaction at the end of the day. I mean, if you haven't talked to the person and don't know about them, why would the pronoun matter so much that it cannot be they/them?
I understand gender issue is sensitive to those who're suffering from it, but everyone has something that's personal that they suffer from and hard to talk about. Those things should be solved always through interaction as this is "community". That's my opinion while I see it'd be convenient way.



Zura said:


> Just ask them or say them they or their.





oath2order said:


> I mean
> The biography section.


^ Short version of my opinion.

One of other reasons is, there are people assexual or non-binary. It may make them uncomfortable when there's a section that you need to write the pronoun to address their gender.
And the other reason is, this community has young teen menbers too. In my opinion, it isn't very static how they feel about their gender, and so far as I've seen, there seems to be really _a lot_ of teens who'd see those gender issues like, fancy accessories or something to decorate their poor identity. I'm concerned that way because I used to be with someone like that. I mean, it could affect those teens wrong way.

Also. As working long as a system engineer, if the system is run by relational database and the members table doesn't have extra columns, you'd need to drop the table once, after exporting data, make the new table with new columns, import and restore the data. And run the program to check if there's anything missing. These process could take long hours depending on the size of data. So.. I feel like it's a bit of too much work when it's not something that's absolutely necessary, when there's biograpy section if you want people to know about you.

Sorry for the loooong post as always!;


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## will.

love the idea of pronouns! i agree it?s easier on everyone even if you wouldn?t use that option for your profile. i imagine it feels horrible to be misgendered and it feels horrible to misgender someone so it would be helpful for all!


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## Alienfish

xSuperMario64x said:


> It would be especially nice because it's difficult to assume someone's gender, especially if their profile/aesthetic doesn't signify their gender. I remember when I first became active here again back in 2016 I had a lot of people call me he/him because my user/sig aesthetic generally doesn't have many feminine traits.
> 
> I've always called people they/them instead of assuming their gender if I don't know them very well. Not that it offended me when people thought I was a guy but it's much easier to ask the person their preferred pronouns or simply refer to them as they/them instead of assuming



I used to get a lot of he and they as well(depending on username(s) I had) which I honestly didn't mind cause it was more just amusing. Yes I'm a she/her but if you want to use others that's fine.

I do support this idea though of adding it, as long as you can type in what you want and not having a preset list because it would always exclude someone. And yes I do my best using they/them if I don't know them, or simply refer to usernames. However, while it is common courtesy to ask I think a lot of people are a bit shy cause some people do bite unnecessary back so, yeah.


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## seliph

Lavamaize said:


> In my opinion I think people are kind enough to usually try to refrain from assuming when talking and usually no one gets too upset with you if you accidentally called them by the wrong gender.



it's already been established that people don't often check peoples' profiles. people generally won't blow up at you if you misgender them but that doesn't eliminate the hurt and discomfort it can cause.



Lavamaize said:


> and people might abuse this feature by putting in somthing weird if you type whatever pronoun you want like "popcorn"



i thought about this too, and i think the issue can be eliminated by having a set group of options:


he/him
she/her
they/them
he/they
she/they
he/she/they (or just label it as "any pronouns")

and of course an option to not display any.

people who use neo/"unusual" pronouns are generally fine with they/them since they realize their pronouns are difficult for people whose native language is not english.



RedTropicalPeachyFish said:


> One of other reasons is, there are people assexual or non-binary. It may make them uncomfortable when there's a section that you need to write the pronoun to address their gender.
> And the other reason is, this community has young teen menbers too. In my opinion, it isn't very static how they feel about their gender, and so far as I've seen, there seems to be really _a lot_ of teens who'd see those gender issues like, fancy accessories or something to decorate their poor identity.



asexuality has absolutely nothing to do with gender identity. i don't know a single trans person who would be uncomfortable with listing their pronouns and i've been heavily involved in the trans community for around 10 years, however if that happens to be someone's case then simply have the option to not list any.

also, i strongly disagree with "people use gender identities as accessories". people, especially young people still figuring themselves out, change their identity not through accessorizing it but through experimentation and realization. there is nothing wrong with changing the pronouns you wish to be called even if it's constant. experimenting with your identity is not harmful, it's more harmful to bottle up any feelings or confusion you have.


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## Alienfish

Yeh hopefully people wouldn't be dumb and type in popcorn cause that's just lack of respect.

Also I think some people mean certain tumblrinas changing it everyday to popcorn just to mock others or because they think it's "cool". It's nothing wrong with figuring out yourself but if you're gonna change everyday to mock others or just because you think it's a "thing to wear" then no.

Maybe a list would be good yes if made as inclusive as possible. Also last but not least, respect each other both ways. Ask, and further learn to use one's correct pronoun, on the other hand don't get pissy if people do it wrong once or twice and don't bite people for it. Just politely tell them yours and just ignore them if they do it wrong on purpose.


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## seliph

it is unfair to assume people are changing their pronouns for fun even if they do change it everyday, we don't know their situation.

if a set list is infeasible and people end up using the section to make transphobic attack helicopter-esque jokes, make abuse of the pronoun section against the rules and subject to warnings/infractions.


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## Zura

seliph said:


> it is unfair to assume people are changing their pronouns for fun even if they do change it everyday, we don't know their situation.



In the same vein, how would you know someone isn't honest about their pronoun? I would think it'd be pretty traumatic getting a warning/infraction if you honestly feel like an attack helicopter or something else. Where do you draw the line?


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## Alienfish

seliph said:


> it is unfair to assume people are changing their pronouns for fun even if they do change it everyday, we don't know their situation.
> 
> if a set list is infeasible and people end up using the section to make transphobic attack helicopter-esque jokes, make abuse of the pronoun section against the rules and subject to warnings/infractions.



1. If they do it to mock ones like popcorn/chopper/car etc. on a regular basis then it's most likely someone abusing this.. but good point.

2. Yes, good idea.


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## seliph

Zura said:


> In the same vein, how would you know someone isn't honest about their pronoun? I would think it'd be pretty traumatic getting a warning/infraction if you honestly feel like an attack helicopter or something else. Where do you draw the line?



contrary to popular belief it's pretty easy to spot. to get a good sense of how neopronouns work:

https://intercultural.uncg.edu/wp-c...s-Explained-UNCG-Intercultural-Engagement.pdf

note the list of course doesn't contain all examples but it does give a good gist of what peoples' actual pronouns will look like.

alternatively that's why i suggested a set list.


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## Alienfish

Zura said:


> In the same vein, how would you know someone isn't honest about their pronoun? I would think it'd be pretty traumatic getting a warning/infraction if you honestly feel like an attack helicopter or something else. Where do you draw the line?



Yeah.. I think that'd be easy to spot yes from what I've seen around sites. So yeah it'd probably be better with an as inclusive list as possible so people don't abuse it and use it to make fun of others.


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## Zura

A set list sounds perfectly reasonable.

Edit: side note, you could also use your title for the time being.


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## tae

RedTropicalPeachyFish said:


> *One of other reasons is, there are people assexual* or non-binary. It may make them uncomfortable when there's a section that you need to write the pronoun to address their gender.



asexual is a sexuality, not a gender. what. lmao.

_also as someone who is non-binary_, and _i cant speak for ALL nb people_, but i've literally never been in a situation or seen someone be uncomfortable with a feature that literally LETS someone correct and limit the use of incorrect pronouns towards them. maybe in the case of there not being a NB option i can see where it may be uncomfortable bc some people aren't in the binary of "male" and "female" but adding more options or even the ability to type in your own option would alleviate that discomfort.





*cis people, stop trying to talk over trans and nb people in this thread when its obvious this doesn't effect you / you don't even understand the difference between gender identity and sexual orientation. *


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## Wildtown

Zura said:


> Is it really that big of a problemo? I honestly don't see the issue here. If someone misgenders you just correct them and move on.
> 
> Am I missing something?


i was gonna say this exact thing


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## tae

Wildtown said:


> i was gonna say this exact thing



just bc its not a problem for *you* doesn't mean it doesn't effect other people negatively on a daily basis.


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## seliph

Wildtown said:


> i was gonna say this exact thing



this has been answered, please read the thread. if you have questions about anything said feel free to ask.


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## mogyay

it's a v simple feature that could provide a lot of comfort to a lot of ppl and ABSOLUTELY no discomfort to anybody lol, i'm all for it


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## dedenne

YES please this is a great idea i always feel bad assuming other peoples pronouns

also correcting people is a pain tbh id rather not


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## Zura

tae said:


> *cis people, stop trying to talk over trans and nb people in this thread when its obvious this doesn't effect you / you don't even understand the difference between gender identity and sexual orientation. *



Who is doing this? Not that I disagree with the proposal but I think everyone deserves to be heard, trans or not.


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## mogyay

Zura said:


> I personally think you're overthinking this but Im also a CIS, straight, white, male, etc... so It really doesn't matter to me. Adios gracias!



^^ previously you said this

because you're *disagreeing* with people who it does matter to, of course you can have an opinion but i think an opinion should be weighted more toward people who are going to be personally effected by this change, you're clearly not so i can see why it might be patronising


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## Alienfish

Zura said:


> Who is doing this? Not that I disagree with the proposal but I think everyone deserves to be heard, trans or not.



Yes, I was wondering the same too.
--

 Also @ above take in mind it's not the same cultures or open-ness all over the world and therefore not everyone might not be as educated as others. Honestly mocking someone for not knowing differences for that is not the way to go, just explain or redirect them to a page that explains.


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## mogyay

Sheila said:


> Yes, I was wondering the same too.
> --
> 
> Also @ above take in mind it's not the same cultures or open-ness all over the world and therefore not everyone might not be as educated as others. Honestly mocking someone for not knowing differences for that is not the way to go, just explain or redirect them to a page that explains.



i'm not sure what culture has to do with my comment, i also don't see how it's relevant, i just think pronouns is a neat idea

edit: ok i'm not sure u were referencing my comment, my bad


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## debinoresu

im a little worried abt where this thread is heading in terms of arguing (though its not much rn, just speaking before stuff could get a bit rougher)

i think its mutually agreeable that the only forseeable negatives of this feature would be, to those who dont care about such a feature it isnt useful, then the hurdle of how itd be programmed/incoorporated, and finally people potentially abusing it to type ridiculous things in, which is an isolated issue and can apply to most profile customization features. that seems to be the jist of complaints i have seen.

otherwise, the positives are more comfort for users it is important to, more accessibility, encouraging a more supportive community, etcetera...

lets try to avoid fighting and conflict over the proposition cause itd suddenly make a neutral proposition into a controversial topic, which pronouns really shouldnt be


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## Alienfish

mogyay said:


> i'm not sure what culture has to do with my comment, i also don't see how it's relevant, i just think pronouns is a neat idea



Yeah writing lmao because someone might have confused certain terminology it was not at you but some people get annoyed if i @ them lol

Anyways I'll leave it at that. I support the original suggestions as long as handled properly. Also respect each other no matter what.


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## Zura

mogyay said:


> ^^ previously you said this
> 
> because you're *arguing *with people who it does matter to, of course you can have an opinion but i think an opinion should be weighted more toward people who are going to be personally effected by this change, you're clearly not so i can see why it might be patronising



That wasn't arguing, I gave my opinion and then left it at that. I even later clarified that I didn't understand the issue and wasn't trying to debate it but rather understand the issue better. Please don't try to paint me as being insensitive 



Zura said:


> I apologize if it sounded like I was trying to "debate the issue", I was only trying to make sense of the situation because I was confused.



I'd suggest reading the whole thread btw!


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## Jeremy

Hello everyone. I just want to point out something that has had to be pointed out in Brewster's Cafe threads in the past. Everyone on the forum is allowed to express their opinion, as long as it isn't hateful. Someone belonging to a particular group or not doesn't mean that they aren't allowed to have a voice. Please keep this in mind when discussing topics like this. This is a community of many different types of people and no one should be excluded.


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## tae

i mean, i never said don't talk, i said please don't talk over those who are directly effected by this subject. no one is being excluded. it's just hurtful to have people chime in like, "oh this isn't an issue for me!  this is a waste of time why bother adios!"


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## mogyay

Zura said:


> That wasn't arguing, I gave my opinion and then left it at that. I even later clarified that I didn't understand the issue and wasn't trying to debate it but rather understand the issue better. Please don't try to paint me as being insensitive
> 
> 
> 
> I'd suggest reading the whole thread btw!



i'm merely explaining what tae might have meant in my opinion (i can't speak for tae), it is going to feel frustrating when you're commenting about something that would make your time on a forum more comfortable and then to hear someone who has admitted that it means nothing to them say that they don't fully see the point in that feature would feel kind of hurtful esp w comments like 'correct them and move on' clearly that's something that doesn't bother you but for so many people that can cause panic attacks and dysphoria

i apologise if i painted you in a certain way, was not intentional


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## Zura

edit: nvm


Jeremy said:


> Hello everyone. I just want to point out something that has had to be pointed out in Brewster's Cafe threads in the past. Everyone on the forum is allowed to express their opinion, as long as it isn't hateful. Someone belonging to a particular group or not doesn't mean that they aren't allowed to have a voice. Please keep this in mind when discussing topics like this. This is a community of many different types of people and no one should be excluded.


Exactly what I was trying to say above. Thanks, Jeremy!


----------



## seliph

Zura said:


> That wasn't arguing, I gave my opinion and then left it at that. I even later clarified that I didn't understand the issue and wasn't trying to debate it but rather understand the issue better. Please don't try to paint me as being insensitive
> 
> I'd suggest reading the whole thread btw!



assuming i'm reading right i'm pretty sure she's referring to how the "overthinking" and "move on" comment was incredibly patronizing and insensitive, not necessarily actually arguing.

also sidenote i don't see anyone telling others not to speak? i only see "don't speak _over_ people who this would affect the most" (as in don't dismiss how they feel just because the issue doesn't personally affect you) and "we should take into account what people this would actually affect have to say".

oops the other replies weren't there when i typed this up LMAO


----------



## Zura

tae said:


> i mean, i never said don't talk, i said please don't talk over those who are directly effected by this subject. no one is being excluded. it's just hurtful to have people chime in like, "oh this isn't an issue for me!  this is a waste of time why bother adios!"


Im assuming you're referring to me and Wildtown, right?  While I cannot speak for them, I was only asking about the issue because I was confused about why it was an issue. Once It was explained, I quickly apologized and moved on. Nobody here or at least to my understanding is trying to talk over or mute the issue. 



mogyay said:


> i'm merely explaining what tae might have meant in my opinion (i can't speak for tae), it is going to feel frustrating when you're commenting about something that would make your time on a forum more comfortable and then to hear someone who has admitted that it means nothing to them say that they don't fully see the point in that feature would feel kind of hurtful esp w comments like 'correct them and move on' clearly that's something that doesn't bother you but for so many people that can cause panic attacks and dysphoria
> 
> i apologise if i painted you in a certain way, was not intentional



I understand that now and that's why I changed my view on the idea. I am more interested in how exactly we plan to implement it and fixes for a few of the flaws it has.

Apology accepted 



seliph said:


> assuming i'm reading right i'm pretty sure she's referring to how the "overthinking" and "move on" comment was incredibly patronizing and insensitive, not necessarily actually arguing.



That's because the issue does not apply to me and I decided it wasn't my place to speak.


----------



## RedTropicalPeachyFish

seliph said:


> it's already been established that people don't often check peoples' profiles.


How do you know it? I do check people's profiles though. Maybe I'm not in the "people" who you consider as people? lol



seliph said:


> people generally won't blow up at you if you misgender them but that doesn't eliminate the hurt and discomfort it can cause.





seliph said:


> asexuality has absolutely nothing to do with gender identity. i don't know a single trans person who would be uncomfortable with listing their pronouns and i've been heavily involved in the trans community for around 10 years, however if that happens to be someone's case then simply have the option to not list any.


I guess you're getting the point in my earlier post wrong. My focus there is people who are assexual, genderless or genderfluids, not the trans people. I mean? why should it be only about trans people when we need to consider discomfort of people in variety? As same as we should about those who are trans, we should about everyone else too.
Technically we can say the same about "simply have the option to not list any" to trans people as well. How you said it sounds as though we should only consider uncomfortable feeling of trans people.



seliph said:


> also, i strongly disagree with "people use gender identities as accessories". people, especially young people still figuring themselves out, change their identity not through accessorizing it but through experimentation and realization. there is nothing wrong with changing the pronouns you wish to be called even if it's constant. experimenting with your identity is not harmful, it's more harmful to bottle up any feelings or confusion you have.


Misconception here too. The young people who I'm talking about there is not those teens who are unsure/uncomfortable with their physical gender but those who claim as trans on purpose just because they think it "cool". I personally know some who did like that. Even just around me a few. That means there must be more out there. Unfortunately it's true that there are those young people if you believe me or not. We should include them as well when we consider the affects. That's my two cents.


----------



## seliph

RedTropicalPeachyFish said:


> How do you know it? I do check people's profiles though. Maybe I'm not in the "people" who you consider as people? lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess you're getting the point in my earlier post wrong. My focus there is people who are assexual, genderless or genderfluids, not the trans people. I mean… why should it be only about trans people when we need to consider discomfort of people in variety? As same as we should about those who are trans, we should about everyone else too.
> Technically we can say the same about "simply have the option to not list any" to trans people as well. How you said it sounds as though we should only consider uncomfortable feeling of trans people.
> 
> 
> Misconception here too. The young people who I'm talking about there is not those teens who are unsure/uncomfortable with their physical gender but those who claim as trans on purpose just because they think it "cool". I personally know some who did like that. Even just around me a few. That means there must be more out there. Unfortunately it's true that there are those young people if you believe me or not. We should include them as well when we consider the affects. That's my two cents.



i use "people" in a general sense, not literally everyone. by "people" i mean "there are people who exist like this".

again, asexual refers to people who do not experience sexual attraction. it has nothing to do with gender identity. genderless, genderfluid, and nonbinary people as a whole fall under the "trans" umbrella and i include them when i say "trans".

we shouldn't dismiss a big community's concerns just because there might be a few bad apples. i believe i have already voiced some solutions should the feature be abused.


----------



## tae

*non-binary people are trans. *


----------



## Lavamaize

I think it is currently fine, as it is in the bio options there are male, female and undisclosed. If you are really concerned you can specify in the bio area, and plus as this being online you can never tell someone's gender even make it female and mistakes are made but they usually don't escalate. Millions of people talk to each other a day without knowing their gender and or pronouns to use and every thing still is usually fine.


----------



## michealsmells

I'd hope, at the very least, that the pronouns are something you can type as well, and that they show up by our icons and collectibles. That way we don't need to stick the pronouns else where (though its not that much of an issue, normalizing a specific place for pronouns is really comforting).

Pronouns being able to be typed due to neo-pronouns like ae/aer and xe/xeir (which I'm not good with Neo-Pronouns but people have them)


----------



## John Wick

I still wouldn't know how to address each different gender.

Is this being overly politically correct?
What if someone is fluid?

How do we know what they are each day?
We can't call someome him/her, or IT.

I think it's been overthunk.

Hey, I think I just invented a word! 

I just address folks using their name.


----------



## seliph

John Wick said:


> I still wouldn't know how to address each different gender.
> 
> Is this being overly politically correct?
> What if someone is fluid?
> 
> How do we know what they are each day?
> We can't call someome him/her, or IT.
> 
> I think it's been overthunk.
> 
> Hey, I think I just invented a word!
> 
> I just address folks using their name.



pronouns are exactly how you address someone. i personally prefer to not use any one word to describe my gender and just use "male" for convenience sake, however i prefer being addressed as he/him/his or they/them/their.

people should have the option to change their pronouns however often they desire, so that genderfluid people can change accordingly. there are also genderfluid people who prefer "they".


----------



## John Wick

seliph said:


> pronouns are exactly how you address someone. i personally prefer to not use any one word to describe my gender and just use "male" for convenience sake, however i prefer being addressed as he/him/his or they/them/their.
> 
> people should have the option to change their pronouns however often they desire, so that genderfluid people can change accordingly. there are also genderfluid people who prefer "they".



I know.
My half sister is gay, my neighbours are a same sex married couple, and my best friend (apart from my wife) is a gay cop.

I'm just saying I refer to people by name.


----------



## tae

i'm just, i'm gonna put this here. 

*sexual orientation*
an inherent or immutable enduring emotional, romantic or sexual attraction to other people.

*gender identity*
one's innermost concept of self as male, female, a blend of both or neither – how individuals perceive themselves and what they call themselves. one's gender identity can be the same or different from their sex assigned at birth.

- - - Post Merge - - -



John Wick said:


> I know.
> My half sister is gay, my neighbours are a same sex married couple, and my best friend (apart from my wife) is a gay cop.
> 
> I'm just saying I refer to people by name.



that first half has nothing to do with this discussion.


----------



## seliph

John Wick said:


> I know.
> My half sister is gay, my neighbours are a same sex married couple, and my best friend (apart from my wife) is a gay cop.
> 
> I'm just saying I refer to people by name.



that's very nice but sexual orientation and gender identity are two very different things. you can be trans and gay, trans and straight, etc.

referring to people by name is dandy but when you have to refer to someone with length it's hard to read and just doesn't flow well, for example:



> john wick is a member of the bell tree forums and john wick has been a member since april 8th, 2017. john wick has a purple and green avatar displaying keanu reeves and john wick's usertitle is baba yaga. john wick has a lovely display of purple and green collectibles and john wick's signature says "armed with pencils".



VS:



> john wick is a member of the bell tree forums and *he* has been a member since april 8th, 2017. *he* has a purple and green avatar displaying keanu reeves and *his* usertitle is baba yaga. john wick has a lovely display of purple and green collectibles and *his* signature says "armed with pencils".


----------



## John Wick

seliph said:
			
		

> that's very nice but sexual orientation and gender identity are two very different things. you can be trans and gay, trans and straight, etc.



Trust me. I know all about it.

I understand why pronouns would be good if it showed in your post info. As checking each person's profile for their gender (identity) before replying to them in a way they doesn't offend could be tedious, so have it in post info.


----------



## RedTropicalPeachyFish

John Wick said:


> How do we know what they are each day?
> We can't call someome him/her, or IT.


IT? IT?!? XD

But, yeah. Like Lava has said as well, it's a gaming community. I think it actually doesn't matter much if they're male or female or other when you interact with them. What matters more is personality imo.
I understand that the gender identity and sexual orientation are different things, but, umm.. it's hard for me to word it properly. But, not all the people are very knowledgeable or it's not that they have to be. We can try get to know each other better through interactions or conversations and it usually works fine?


----------



## SheepMareep

Hi everyone! This exploded VERY MUCH over the course of the day since I last checked so sorry I was unavailable to answer any questions or join in on the conversation.

In response to all of this uh.... problematic... talk... from non trans/nb people who are confused I added two links to the OP. One that breaks down different definitions of words in the community and another one that is a short FAQ on pronoun usage. (if anyone has other links please lmk, I want to limit the amount of uneducated discussions on here that will only set us back further.)

I am not going to argue with anyone because I... do not have the time right now but please do not come into this thread complaining that this is not important because you personally do not understand or it does not personally affect you.
It is not anyone's responsibility in this forum to educate you on trans/nb info. Google exists and is your friend. (make sure your sources are credible pleas) going off from that if anyone has questions feel free to PM me rather than being offensive to my trans and nb friends here. or if anyone else is open to RESPECTFUL questions please feel free to let people know since im cis and I am only going off of what my friends have told me and what I have learned doing my own evidence-based research in nursing school.

Trying not to come off as mean but... if the conversation escalates anymore towards being transphobic than it is now I will notify the mods to intervene.


----------



## Zura

Nobody is saying it's not a real problem or that it doesn't matter because it "doesn't effect them". People are just confused like myself and/or offering other solutions


----------



## John Wick

tae said:


> i'm just, i'm gonna put this here.
> 
> *sexual orientation*
> an inherent or immutable enduring emotional, romantic or sexual attraction to other people.
> 
> *gender identity*
> one's innermost concept of self as male, female, a blend of both or neither – how individuals perceive themselves and what they call themselves. one's gender identity can be the same or different from their sex assigned at birth.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> 
> 
> that first half has nothing to do with this discussion.



It kinda does.
I was showing that I'm not ignorant on the subject, so need to overthink it.


----------



## Antonio

I'm totally on board with the idea. <3


----------



## Zura

John Wick said:


> It kinda does.
> I was showing that I'm not ignorant on the subject, so need to overthink it.



I think they meant on the issue of gender identity. The examples you gave refer to sexual orientation which they were saying are not one and the same.

Hope this helps


----------



## SheepMareep

Zura said:


> Nobody is saying it's not a real problem or that it doesn't matter because it "doesn't effect them". People are just confused like myself and/or offering other solutions



There have been a few people, including yourself, who claimed that it does not affect them, that it is "overly politically correct", or does not matter since the formation of this thread. Just wanted to address that. (also yes I understand some of this was resolved but there will still be more people joining the conversation and possibly adding similar comments.) The idea of just referring to someone by their username instead of just using pronouns is also p problematic since... i am offering an option to KNOW someones pronouns without asking. Assuming people will use this system as a joke or will "abuse" it somehow is also pushing towards the idea that trans and nb people are just confused and not serious about exploring their gender identity or serious about their established gender identity. 

Just want everyone to remain respectful and not resort to uneducated comments that are harmful and very obviously upsetting to people. If anyone is confused they should look it up and research before joining a discussion like this one. This is less a "We should make the background pink for spring" type of topic and more of a "human rights" sort of topic where the feelings and rights of other real life human beings are affected.


----------



## John Wick

Zura said:


> I think they meant on the issue of gender identity. The examples you gave refer to sexual orientation which they were saying are not one and the same.
> 
> Hope this helps



I know the difference.
Trust me. 

I don't even see gender anymore.
I look more at the Soul of a person.

Sometimes that Soul doesn't have a specific gender.


----------



## Zura

Yes, but not a single person here has said it isn't a issue but rather they've personally haven't had the issue. If you're gonna be here asking for a feature to be implemented then you should also be informing them why they should care. Telling people you disagree with to leave and "educate themselves " in of itself is problematic and only alienates people like myself. 

For example, I changed my views after Seliph kindly went ahead and explained the issue.


----------



## SheepMareep

Did not think I would be required to provide any further reasoning than I had already provided.



> Including your pronouns not only allows people to know how to address you properly, but also makes the community more open to our trans and nb friends! Normalizing asking someone's pronouns and saying your own even if you are cis is important to creating an inclusive and understanding community.



I also wasn't telling anyone to leave but to look stuff up before they come in here posting stuff that could be upsetting or harmful. It doesn't alienate anyone, we all have access to google and resources. :T I even added links on the first post to HELP people who need more information since I didn't think it was necessary before because I realized a lot of people did not understand what trans/nb is or why pronouns are important.


----------



## Zura

Irishchai said:


> I even added links on the first post to HELP people who need more information since I didn't think it was necessary before because I realized a lot of people did not understand what trans/nb is or why pronouns are important.


Thank you that helps!


----------



## Lavamaize

First of all just because this does not affect some people as they just use usernames does not mean their opinions are invalid or  are leading to transphobic attitudes. As Jermey said we are all allowed to express our opinion as long as they are not hateful which none of them are. Just because people disagree does not mean their options are invalid as they too are members of The forum with valubale input just as much as all the others. As for Google can't someone just Google what pronoun to use if they are confused or are using a pronoun in their situation. Once again I am not against people who want the pronoun  option I just don't think it is nessesary.


----------



## John Wick

Lavamaize said:


> First of all just because this does not affect some people as they just use usernames does not mean their opinions are invalid or  are leading to homophobic attitudes. As Jermey said we are all allowed to express our opinion as long as they are not hateful which none of them are. Just because people disagree does not mean their options are invalid as they too are members of The forum with valubale input just as much as all the others. As for Google can't someone just Google what pronoun to use if they are confused or are using a pronoun in their situation. Once again I am not against people who want the pronoun  option I just don't think it is nessesary.



I haven't seen anyone be hateful, or homophobic.

There is no need for it.

I support the pronoun cause.


----------



## Zura

John Wick said:


> I haven't seen anyone be hateful, or homophobic.



I think the word you're looking for is transphobic and agreed.


----------



## John Wick

Zura said:


> I think the word you're looking for is transphobic and agreed.



I was replying to the 'homophobic' term used by who I quoted.


----------



## SheepMareep

I never said anyone WAS being transphobic, just that it was getting pretty close to that line/seemed to be heading that way and I did not want anyone to cross that. The only thing I said was that certain aspects of the conversation were problematic. :T

Please don't put words into my mouth or get defensive. All I did was mention I updated the OP due to problematic comments made and pushed for people to please look into the topic before POSSIBLY saying something harmful by mistake due to lack of information on the topic. which has been done multiple times.

Didn't call anyone out saying they were transphobic, claim you could not reply without being an expert in the matter, or say you could not ask questions. I opened my PMs to anyone with questions to avoid leading to problematic discussions in the thread that could upset people and asked if anyone else would be willing to do the same. which was pretty clear if anyone fully read my response.

If anyone took that as me saying they were transphobic then.... idk what to tell you because never once did I say that to anyone and even if i WAS your immediate response should not be "no im not!" but "what did I say that could come across as this?" :T


----------



## seliph

it is not unreasonable to ask people to educate themselves before responding to a topic that may require certain knowledge. the reason i've taken on the task of an informer here is not because i _want_ to sit here repeating the same things i've been telling people for the past 10 years, it's because i want this feature to be seriously considered and i want all concerns surrounding it to be addressed and i know i'm someone who's both knowledgeable and well experienced on the topic.

it is a very mentally and emotionally exhausting job and it does take a huge load off of our shoulders when people have done their own research before asking questions.



RedTropicalPeachyFish said:


> But, yeah. Like Lava has said as well, it's a gaming community. I think it actually doesn't matter much if they're male or female or other when you interact with them. What matters more is personality imo.



you are correct but it does matter that people are addressed properly during trades and whatnot. plus while it is a gaming community there are still several off-topic boards where peoples' pronouns and identities do matter.



Irishchai said:


> your immediate response should not be "no im not!" but "what did I say that could come across as this?" :T



this part is so important it should be pinned to everyones' walls


----------



## John Wick

I think it's great to educate people.
I was merely saying I do understand.

My wife is a beautiful woman, wears makeup, has gorgeous long hair, is not attracted to other women, but she is fluid.

I think that's why we've never had a fight.

She just thinks like a guy, and sometimes she identifies as one. It has nothing to do with sexuality.

It's why I said that I see past gender to the Soul of a person.

My wife is my person, so I truly do understand.


----------



## duckykate

cool idea but dont put them in the side bar cos theres already so much crap there


----------



## Zura

duckykate said:


> cool idea but dont put them in the side bar cos theres already so much crap there



Where would you have them placed?


----------



## Darkesque_

I wouldn't mind this!

*Just to get this out there* I don't care what pronoun you use for me (yes, even it), because I am literally at the point in life where I am questioning EVERYTHING! Soooooooo, I don't know what gender I am, and I don't know what I like. So any pronoun is fine!


----------



## seliph

duckykate said:


> cool idea but dont put them in the side bar cos theres already so much crap there



i don't think a single optional additional line would make much difference. plus it's the only place that makes sense given the problem is people being addressed wrong on the actual forums.


----------



## SheepMareep

John Wick said:


> I think it's great to educate people.
> I was merely saying I do understand.
> 
> My wife is a beautiful woman, wears makeup, has gorgeous long hair, is not attracted to other women, but she is fluid.
> 
> I think that's why we've never had a fight.
> 
> She just thinks like a guy, and sometimes she identifies as one. It has nothing to do with sexuality.
> 
> It's why I said that I see past gender to the Soul of a person.
> 
> My wife is my person, so I truly do understand.



off topic but I swear your love for your wife is so precious it makes me smile every time fjsndfkjsnfkdjn


----------



## John Wick

Irishchai said:


> off topic but I swear your love for your wife is so precious it makes me smile every time fjsndfkjsnfkdjn



^_^

She said to tell you 'IKR'!


----------



## Flyffel

animeshadowpanda said:


> I wouldn't mind this!
> 
> *Just to get this out there* I don't care what pronoun you use for me (yes, even it), because I am literally at the point in life where I am questioning EVERYTHING! Soooooooo, I don't know what gender I am, and I don't know what I like. So any pronoun is fine!


It's so cute. c:


----------



## SheepMareep

duckykate said:


> cool idea but dont put them in the side bar cos theres already so much crap there



The site is being updated come march so we have no idea what it will look like! Who knows, maybe the sidebar will be less cluttered.  besides, no one HAS to put their pronouns on display just as you don't need to display your friend codes. Where else do you think it would be appropriate? The only other area I could think of was having it right above the signature line or in parentheses next to the user name. But having it listed by the join date and post count would be more organized imo.


----------



## Reginald Fairfield

Zura said:


> People ask and get corrected in the real world so not much different.
> 
> 
> 
> Is it really that big of a problemo? I honestly don't see the issue here. If someone misgenders you just correct them and move on.
> 
> Am I missing something?



Apparently yes.


----------



## kikotoot

I think that's a cool idea! It would be neat as an optional thing next to where it says "senior/junior member"

irl I'm a cis male and identify as such, but I'm all for pronouns being on display cuz a lot of the time: it is easy to assume stuff about people, but if you fall into making assumptions, and can see right then and there that you were wrong, then your brain will slowly get out of the habit of assuming, becoming more open minded, and I think that's great!


----------



## xTurnip

I would love this as an option on the sidebar, maybe right after join date? This will help keep people comfortable on TBT, which is something everybody wants to be on here!


----------



## Dinosaurz

If someone really wants their pronouns just put it in the user title thing


----------



## SheepMareep

Dinosaurz said:


> If someone really wants their pronouns just put it in the user title thing



This is not just to make things easier for trans ppl with. their pronouns but also spread awareness and encourage the normalization of telling people your pronouns despite being trans or cis which is a pretty common practice across social media platforms. Also some people like to use the title to be an actual fun title


----------



## Alienfish

Irishchai said:


> your immediate response should not be "no im not!" but "what did I say that could come across as this?" :T



Some people might not be as familiar as others and might have problem expressing themselves(due to mental conditions/disorders, language barrier, culture etc.), and/or might not have explained properly at once. Of course, you can always educate yourself and should treat each other with respect no matter who or what you are. Also remember cultures are different around the world.

Also, great idea posting links in OP by the way. I think it's definitely a friendly and helpful way to educate rather than expect people to know exactly everything beforehand and other people might be like GOOGLE IT BOOMER like okay let's stop being toxic. People are not superior because of this and it's not helping those who actually wants to learn about things.
--

Also late and in general (not at you Irischai), but yeah as long as you reply in a educated and respectful way and not being anything phobic it should be alright. Sure you could wish some might read up a bit but, yeah.

(also mog, no problems i was a bit diffuse about the directions of my post so sorry if it came off at you)


----------



## Rhythrin

I'm all for this! Despite me being genderfluid and not caring about my own pronouns as much, I'm happy to know the oppertunity would be there to those that do!


----------



## RedTropicalPeachyFish

Irishchai said:


> Also some people like to use the title to be an actual fun title


True. Well, there are more sections to put it in though.
However, I have a question to understand better, if okay?



Irishchai said:


> This is not just to make things easier for trans ppl with. their pronouns but also spread awareness and encourage the normalization of telling people your pronouns despite being trans or cis which is a pretty common practice across social media platforms.


Spread awareness towards? Hesitant/confused trans people or.. towards people who aren't trans and not very familiar with those things?

And another question if thread owner or anyone who's trans and on board with this idea could tell me.
Which one is the purpose as a whole point of this new additional section?


Rather to encourage trans people regardless if it's with better understanding or not, from those who aren't familiar with gender issues.
Rather to understand each other better with those who aren't familiar with gender issues.


----------



## SheepMareep

RedTropicalPeachyFish said:


> True. Well, there are more sections to put it in though.
> However, I have a question to understand better, if okay?
> 
> 
> Spread awareness towards? Hesitant/confused trans people or.. towards people who aren't trans and not very familiar with those things?
> 
> And another question if thread owner or anyone who's trans and on board with this idea could tell me.
> Which one is the purpose as a whole point of this new additional section?
> 
> 
> Rather to encourage trans people regardless if it's with better understanding or not, from those who aren't familiar with gender issues.
> Rather to understand each other better with those who aren't familiar with gender issues.



Spread awareness to non trans/nb people that trans and nb people do exist and that this is an important part of integrating them respectfully into the community since our current society is not welcoming or understanding.

The primary goals are to prevent the misgendering of trans/nb people, create a more inclusive community, and normalize this use of differing pronouns in the public's day to day life. The more you practice ensuring the appropriate use of pronouns the more likely you are to employ this concept irl and help closeted or open trans/nb people feel respected/not judged.

Even if it is on a forum site the constant reminder to check someone's pronouns before addressing them will eventually become habit and transfer into our day to day lives. You can not tell who is or is not trans/nb. Someone may be scared to use their correct pronouns and resort to ones that cause upset or harm in order to fit in and avoid discrimination. Asking them this makes people feel safe and more empowered to truly be who they are instead of hiding it out of fear or rejection, death, or being verbally attacked.


----------



## RedTropicalPeachyFish

First of all, thank you for trying to answer my question.



Irishchai said:


> since our current society is not welcoming or understanding.


Could you kindly specify a bit more what do you mean by "our current society"? I'm not from States or Europe by the way.
However, now I get your point,and have some thoughts.



Irishchai said:


> The primary goals are to prevent the misgendering of trans/nb people, create a more inclusive community, and normalize this use of differing pronouns in the public's day to day life. The more you practice ensuring the appropriate use of pronouns the more likely you are to employ this concept irl and help closeted or open trans/nb people feel respected/not judged.


If it's just to prevent misgendering, a section specifically for pronoun would help and be easier way to go. But I'd disagree that just looking at someone's pronoun section as a habit to avoid misgendering would help with mutual understanding. These things are different from dog training. Regardless of the kind of discrimination or misunderstanding, you're supposed to try talk open/friendly with the person who's misunderstanding you, so for them to be able to get to know you better step by step/bit by bit.
I mean, for an instance, though your thought seems to be like "no one is obligated to educate you", "educate yourself before joining the discussion", it's pretty much wrong way in my opinion.
I have friends in real life who are Female to Male transgenders. And how they act is opposite of that. They try to talk open and friendly, would just give us more explanation/information through natural chatting when we speak some wrong ideas about the issue, so it could be more emotionally understandable to we - who are not familiar with the issue. Without interactions it's impossible to achieve, I came to believe so through seeing them.
"Educate yourself before joining discussion" kind of process doesn't help.

}Also. If this is a drift-away from the subject, I'd apologize.


----------



## Alienfish

> Regardless of the kind of discrimination or misunderstanding, you're supposed to try talk open/friendly with the person who's misunderstanding you, so for them to be able to get to know you better step by step/bit by bit.



THIS SO MUCH. If people could be patient and understanding that the community is not the same everywhere and that everyone might not be familiar is the way to go. Posting frustration will most likely scare people off/give bad vibes and it's like most things until people change you need to be the force that do it. Even if it's frustrating you don't teach people by being that one rude parent.




> "Educate yourself before joining discussion" kind of process doesn't help.



^ Forcing people to read up because they are "inferior/boomers/uneducated" and not knowing everything is not how to do stuff either. As Yuki said, be friendly and open about who you are and let people know that way. No one like a toxic community of any kind. I also know really nice lgbtq+ people IRL (and also some bad eggs :/) so yeah been there both ways. It's always a good idea to ask, use they/them etc. but yeah no one is superior.

As I mentioned, providing links in a nice way like adding to OP is definitely a better idea than being "like lol google it u butt and learn"


----------



## Chris

Not cis and personally don't feel or see a need for it.


----------



## Alienfish

Vrisnem said:


> Not cis and personally don't feel or see a need for it.



Def see what you're coming from. 

 I don't really care what people use for me, it's not that big of a deal.. I'm me I suppose what that would make me... Just speaking for others, if it could open up and be a more friendly place I definitely see that it could make stuff easier.


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## seliph

RedTropicalPeachyFish said:


> First of all, thank you for trying to answer my question.
> 
> 
> Could you kindly specify a bit more what do you mean by "our current society"? I'm not from States or Europe by the way.
> However, now I get your point,and have some thoughts.
> 
> 
> If it's just to prevent misgendering, a section specifically for pronoun would help and be easier way to go. But I'd disagree that just looking at someone's pronoun section as a habit to avoid misgendering would help with mutual understanding. These things are different from dog training. Regardless of the kind of discrimination or misunderstanding, you're supposed to try talk open/friendly with the person who's misunderstanding you, so for them to be able to get to know you better step by step/bit by bit.
> I mean, for an instance, though your thought seems to be like "no one is obligated to educate you", "educate yourself before joining the discussion", it's pretty much wrong way in my opinion.
> I have friends in real life who are Female to Male transgenders. And how they act is opposite of that. They try to talk open and friendly, would just give us more explanation/information through natural chatting when we speak some wrong ideas about the issue, so it could be more emotionally understandable to we - who are not familiar with the issue. Without interactions it's impossible to achieve, I came to believe so through seeing them.
> "Educate yourself before joining discussion" kind of process doesn't help.
> 
> }Also. If this is a drift-away from the subject, I'd apologize.



"These things are different from dog training." as a former dog trainer, you're correct. training dogs can be much harder.

irishchai has the correct idea: the more we normalize things like using gender neutral pronouns and not assuming peoples' pronouns off the bat, the more we normalize being accepting of pronouns that don't "match" someone's appearance. it's not going to end transphobia singlehandedly but it's an itty bitty step in the right direction. i know because i've seen it.

it is important to acknowledge that every trans person is different, and expecting all of us to act in identical ways is not only unrealistic but also bordering on transphobic (not necessarily accusing you here, just pointing it out since i realize we're dealing with a language barrier). we are an incredibly diverse community with diverse emotions and experiences just like everyone else. we as a society cannot base how we see trans people or how we think trans people "should be" based on the few that we know, and this goes for any minority/marginalized group.

trans people are more in the light now than ever before, and therefore everyone should seek to educate themselves on what it is to be transgender, what is considered transphobic behaviour, along with what are transphobic slurs without waiting for a trans person to come and do it for them. trans people are expected to already know all of this, so why is the standard different for people who aren't trans? why are we the ones who have to be educated _and_ do the educating? it's incredibly unfair.

we also cannot expect every single trans person to be cool and collected when faced with transphobia, even if unintentional. no one expects cis people to be calm when insulted, in fact it's often declared reasonable to fight back in some sense. the expectations that trans people (and any marginalized group) are tasked with to be robotic when faced with discrimination because the other person "didn't know" is just another form of aggression we face on a day to day basis.

also just a sidenote, "trans" and "transgender" are adjectives, not nouns. they should come before person/people/man/men/woman/women. "transgenders" is incorrect.



> Forcing people to read up because they are "inferior/boomers/uneducated"



where did anyone use any of the words in quotes?

no one is forcing anyone to do anything either, it's a reasonable request. if we're going to call it force, one could also claim that we are being forced to educate without having any emotions at all.



Vrisnem said:


> Not cis and personally don't feel or see a need for it.



care to explain why? it doesn't really help anyone when there's just a "nah" with no reasoning.


----------



## Dinosaurz

Irishchai said:


> This is not just to make things easier for trans ppl with. their pronouns but also spread awareness and encourage the normalization of telling people your pronouns despite being trans or cis which is a pretty common practice across social media platforms. Also some people like to use the title to be an actual fun title



Idk it?s probably just me I hate everything being about pronouns and gender but as long as it?s not a forced option for me to have idc just have it voluntary

- - - Post Merge - - -

Am I the only one who hates trans ppl being in the light lol


----------



## seliph

Dinosaurz said:


> Idk it’s probably just me I hate everything being about pronouns and gender but as long as it’s not a forced option for me to have idc just have it voluntary
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> Am I the only one who hates trans ppl being in the light lol



i hope it is clear that by "in the light" i mean like, we aren't in hiding anymore and i'd wager most people now can name at least one trans person even if it's some celebrity.

that being said it is a good thing because it spreads awareness and representation and also encourages people to look into what exactly being trans entails as well as how to inoffensively address us. it also encourages more trans people to not be afraid to be themselves.


----------



## Dinosaurz

seliph said:


> i hope it is clear that by "in the light" i mean like, we aren't in hiding anymore and i'd wager most people now can name at least one trans person even if it's some celebrity.
> 
> that being said it is a good thing because it spreads awareness and representation and also encourages people to look into what exactly being trans entails as well as how to inoffensively address us. it also encourages more trans people to not be afraid to be themselves.



Yeah against hiding but also against making it seem like trans people are different from cis people with gender identity which is fine for people who want to be perceived like that but not for people who are more gender binary


----------



## RedTropicalPeachyFish

seliph said:


> -snip-


It's weird. If your concept is in the right and the truth, why am I not inclined at all to try putting efforts harder to understand "you" - trans people?
I'm not kidding. When the purpose is mutual understanding/acceptance by people who are not very understanding, how would you be able to achieve it _without_ them feeling like trying? Yes it may be unfair as you said. But your concept is conflicting. Let's say, the situation is fair to you. Then, there should be no issue. _Because_ the situation is unfair, there is an issue. See what I mean...? Unfair not to non trans people. Unfair to trans people. _So_ you try and work on to rectify it. That's how in general when you want something wrong to change. You can't expect them to try work on it just because "it's right".

Also, "i know because i've seen it" is conflicting to "we as a society cannot base how we see trans people or how we think trans people "should be" based on the few that we know" in terms of logic.

So, however. Thank you for understanding the language barrier. I'm really thankful of it.


----------



## Alienfish

I'm not saying anyone used them, but it's a lot of the general approach that people are supposed to know just because they are "young" or "woke enough" etc. or that they are lazy reading up on things. Not everyone spends time with eg. trans people on a daily basis or sit and read all the time even though yeah, I can agree on you should know different pronouns exist and it should be used respectfully both ways.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Dinosaurz said:


> Yeah against hiding but also against making it seem like trans people are different from cis people with gender identity which is fine for people who want to be perceived like that but not for people who are more gender binary



yeah neither side are royalties, and yes it's sad people/society treat as in this case trans people with less respect. but yeah respect and mutual understanding should be both ways. obv they are different but no one should act mighty about it.


----------



## seliph

Dinosaurz said:


> Yeah against hiding but also against making it seem like trans people are different from cis people with gender identity which is fine for people who want to be perceived like that but not for people who are more gender binary



we are different from cis people though, it's something that just has to be accepted. we're different but should be treated the exact same way - with respect.



RedTropicalPeachyFish said:


> It's weird. If your concept is in the right and the truth, why am I not inclined at all to try putting efforts harder to understand "you" - trans people?
> I'm not kidding. When the purpose is mutual understanding/acceptance by people who are not very understanding, how would you be able to achieve it _without_ them feeling like trying? Yes it may be unfair as you said. But your concept is conflicting. Let's say, the situation is fair to you. Then, there should be no issue. _Because_ the situation is unfair, there is an issue. See what I mean...? Unfair not to non trans people. Unfair to trans people. _So_ you try and work on to rectify it. That's how in general when you want something wrong to change. You can't expect them to try work on it just because "it's right".
> 
> Also, "i know because i've seen it" is conflicting to "we as a society cannot base how we see trans people or how we think trans people "should be" based on the few that we know" in terms of logic.
> 
> So, however. Thank you for understanding the language barrier. I'm really thankful of it.



i'm sorry but i have a very hard time understanding your posts and i'm guessing it is the language barrier we've got going on. it might also be a mutual misunderstanding.

"i know because i've seen it" refers to how i've seen cis people become more understanding with trans people and pronouns through pronouns being normalized and discussed more.

"we as a society cannot base how we see trans people or how we think trans people should be based on the few that we know" refers to how we should not expect every trans person to act identically and how we should not base our ideas of all trans people off the actions/behaviours of a few. we're all different, the trans experience is not a universal one.


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## will.

all this over pronouns? everybody (cis + trans) can use them. i don't wanna be misgendered just like everyone else. lets all take a breath.


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## seliph

will. said:


> all this over pronouns? everybody (cis + trans) can use them. i don't wanna be misgendered just like everyone else. lets all take a breath.



i'm not sure what this post is a response to but everyone using them is part of the argument for this feature being added - cis people displaying their pronouns helps normalize doing so and makes it much less of a stigma for trans people to do so.


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## Zura

I don't know if it has been discussed already but whats wrong with putting it in your signature or title?


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## dedenne

Zura said:


> I don't know if it has been discussed already but whats wrong with putting it in your signature or title?



some people dont have enough space i guess


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## seliph

Zura said:


> I don't know if it has been discussed already but whats wrong with putting it in your signature or title?



there's nothing wrong with it but it'd be nice to be able to have a fun usertitle if desired and it could ruin the overall aesthetic of your signature, it could also put you over the height limit if you have a tall one.


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## mogyay

i don't always read usertitles tbh, if there was a dedicated pronoun tab i would read that before referring to someone though


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## Zura

mogyay said:


> i don't always read usertitles tbh, if there was a dedicated pronoun tab i would read that before referring to someone though



Well tbh, that's because you'd know that the tab would be for pronouns and that would prompt you to check it. The same thing can be applied with titles as long as there are enough people doing it and enough awareness on the userbases part



seliph said:


> there's nothing wrong with it but it'd be nice to be able to have a fun usertitle if desired and it could ruin the overall aesthetic of your signature, it could also put you over the height limit if you have a tall one.



Same response as the bio section argument, if you're serious about it being a problem then I don't see a reason why you wouldn't make sure it was in at least one of the two already. Not to say a new feature wouldn't make it easier.


----------



## SheepMareep

Zura said:


> I don't know if it has been discussed already but whats wrong with putting it in your signature or title?



The idea is for everyone to be prompted to supply this information like we are with gender in the bio section. If only trans and some cis people put it in their signatures or titles like how we all do now it's less of an impact for change or thought.


----------



## mogyay

Zura said:


> Well tbh, that's because you'd know that the tab would be for pronouns and that would prompt you to check it. The same thing can be applied with titles as long as there are enough people doing it and enough awareness on the userbases part



but then you'd have to force everyone to use their usertitle for pronouns which isn't realistic


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## Zura

Irishchai said:


> The idea is for everyone to be prompted to supply this information like we are with gender in the bio section. If only trans and some cis people put it in their signatures or titles like how we all do now it's less of an impact for change or thought.





mogyay said:


> but then you'd have to force everyone to use their usertitle for pronouns which isn't realistic



Same response to both, Im not against the proposal. I am saying that we have a feature that exists already and people should be using it. I think if enough people were using the titles for pronouns, the mods wouldn't have a problem seeing the problem.


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## SheepMareep

Zura said:


> Same response to both, Im not against the proposal. I am saying that we have a feature that exists already and people should be using it. I think if enough people were using the titles for pronouns, the mods wouldn't have a problem seeing the problem.



I'm confused. What mod has said there was a problem...? And trans/nb ppl already do use titles and signatures for their pronouns. I'm asking for a designated area on the sidebar of posts SPECIFICALLY for this so people become more conscious of pronoun use. 
No one really thinks to look at a signature or title as to how to address someone. Having a SPECIFIC designated spot makes it easier for everyone.

If you are not against this and have been explained everything multiple times I do not understand why you are pressing for this not to be implemented......


----------



## seliph

Zura said:


> Same response as the bio section argument, if you're serious about it being a problem then I don't see a reason why you wouldn't make sure it was in at least one of the two already. Not to say a new feature wouldn't make it easier.



the usertitle section isn't dedicated to pronouns though. requesting an additional feature is much more feasable than requesting an entire userbase to use an existing feature a certain way.

as for the bio section, again, that's an extra 3 clicks that shouldn't have to be made



Zura said:


> Same response to both, Im not against the proposal. I am saying that we have a feature that exists already and people should be using it. I think if enough people were using the titles for pronouns, the mods wouldn't have a problem seeing the problem.



we only had a single staff member say they "don't personally see a need for it", without any further reasoning at that.


----------



## mogyay

Zura said:


> Same response to both, Im not against the proposal. I am saying that we have a feature that exists already and people should be using it. I think if enough people were using the titles for pronouns, the mods wouldn't have a problem seeing the problem.



that's not a feature for pronouns and it's not up to people to use it for that if they don't want to. obviously not everyone cares about being misgendered but it can be a big deal for trans people, it's a little feature that can go a long way, while i personally don't need it because i'm cis and i'm not bothered about someone using the wrong pronouns i am absolutely more than happy for such a change to make even one person on this forum feel more comfortable, it does not impact my life in any way, there's absolutely no negative for such a little feature

- - - Post Merge - - -

lol i type slow.. mb


----------



## Zura

Irishchai said:


> If you are not against this and have been explained everything multiple times I do not understand why you are pressing for this not to be implemented......



Im not pressing for that and I think misinterpreting other people's points seem to be a reoccurring theme in this thread. (Btw dont know if it's because of im color blind but I can't see yours in your sig without highlighting it.) What im saying is that people should create awareness by adding it to their titles and encourage the userbase to read it. In my mind, it shows that you care enough about the issue and showing how much it affects you.


----------



## SheepMareep

Zura said:


> Im not pressing for that and I think misinterpreting other people's points seem to be a reoccurring theme in this thread. (Btw dont know if it's because of im color blind but I can't see yours in your sig without highlighting it.) What im saying is that people should create awareness by adding it to their titles and encourage the userbase to read it. In my mind, it shows that you care enough about the issue and showing how much it affects you.



Instead of agreeing that a pronoun area is ok you've pushed for people to continue doing what they already do without change and state that is doing enough.
But it isnt. 
Me caring about the issue and doing something to solve it is making this thread to push for a pronoun section lmao.


----------



## Zura

Irishchai said:


> Instead of agreeing that a pronoun area is ok you've pushed for people to continue doing what they already do without change and state that is doing enough.
> But it isnt.
> Me caring about the issue and doing something to solve it is making this thread to push for a pronoun section lmao.



Again, I ask that you please don't put words in my mouth. *I am all for the idea!* I am saying to create awareness of the problem. I myself didn't see it as a problem because of the lack of your side showing it.



seliph said:


> *cis people displaying their pronouns helps normalize doing so and makes it much less of a stigma for trans people to do so.*


----------



## seliph

ok since my specialty is making fun comparisons let's have one for here.

say every user has an ice cream cone. the cone is our blank usertitle section. the ice cream is any fun title, quote, etc you can think of. the sprinkles are a new pronoun section. users having to reserve the usertitle section for pronouns, which is a way for many people to avoid discomfort, is giving us an ice cream cone with some sprinkles in it without letting us have a scoop of actual ice cream.



Zura said:


> Again, I ask that you please don't put words in my mouth. *I am all for the idea!* I am saying to create awareness of the problem. I myself didn't see it as a problem because of the lack of your side showing it.



please do not quote me out of context. my words were specifically in favour of a new pronoun section. i've agreed with pretty much everything irishchai has said and i think this thread does more for awareness than everyone changing their title honestly.


----------



## SheepMareep

Oh wait. I'm sorry I completely misread your post omg ;;

That's actually a really good idea to get people to add their information into signatures/titles to make it shown we want that feature

Sorry I've been in class all day and my brain is dead ;;

However there has not been a lack of anyone showing anything regarding "our" side o uo;;;

- - - Post Merge - - -

By people adding it into their sig/title I am also assuming you mean other cis people who support this since trans/nb people already do this.


----------



## Zura

Irishchai said:


> By people adding it into their sig/title I am also assuming you mean other cis people who support this since trans/nb people already do this.


I dont see why not, I've already done so.


----------



## SheepMareep

Zura said:


> I dont see why not, I've already done so.



So you're meaning to say that in order to raise awareness for this FEATURE to be implemented we should encourage everyone to do this? Not that people should use their titles and signatures for this instead of having a feature implemented for pronouns?


----------



## Zura

Irishchai said:


> So you're meaning to say that in order to raise awareness for this FEATURE to be implemented we should encourage everyone to do this? Not that people should use their titles and signatures for this instead of having a feature implemented for pronouns?



What Im saying is that we should encourage people to check both sig and title for pronouns just like they would if there was an actual feature. People like myself can show their respect/support for the issue by adding their pronouns to their titles/sigs which with enough people creates awareness of an issue.


----------



## SheepMareep

Zura said:


> What Im saying is that we should encourage people to check both sig and title for pronouns just like they would if there was an actual feature. People like myself can show their respect/support for the issue by adding their pronouns to their titles/sigs which with enough people creates awareness of an issue.



People already do this though. The point of the pronoun section is to make sure people look for pronouns o uo;;;;;


----------



## seliph

yeah i personally don't like expecting others to use features in ways they don't wish to do so. i worry that instead of raising awareness it'll make the problem appear solved when it isn't. i also worry that people who very rightfully have no desire to abide to this will be wrongly labeled as discriminatory.


----------



## Zura

In Seliph's case, it's easy to see and picture how might look if a new feature was added. In Irishchai's case, Idk if it's because I'm color deficient but I can't see it without highlighting it and looking through sig is more of a hassle. 

Who else are you referring to when you say other trans already do this? I've only ever noticed it in Seliph's title because I enjoy reading titles. I don't see how displaying it in your title being that big of a problem considering how much you've pushed that misgendering affects you. I also dont like just saying "we'll do nothing but demand a new feature".  In any great movement, awareness is the first step and if you guys aren't willing to take it, then I dont see this going anywhere. 

This is the last thing I'll say here. Peace and GL!


----------



## seliph

Zura said:


> In Seliph's case, it's easy to see and picture how might look if a new feature was added. In Irishchai's case, Idk if it's because I'm color deficient but I can't see it without highlighting it and looking through sig is more of a hassle.
> 
> Who else are you referring to when you say other trans already do this? I've only ever noticed it in Seliph's title because I enjoy reading titles. I don't see how displaying it in your title being that big of a problem considering how much you've pushed that misgendering affects you. I also dont like just saying "we'll do nothing but demand a new feature".  In any great movement, awareness is the first step and if you guys aren't willing to take it, then I dont see this going anywhere.
> 
> This is the last thing I'll say here. Peace and GL!



this thread is plenty awareness though, just as irl movements/protests are shared on social media this thread is bumped frequently and stays on the first page. i've also answered the usertitle question several times, we should have the opportunity to both have fun usertitles _and_ be able to display our pronouns if we wish to do so. we shouldn't have to choose one or the other. you can display yours in your title if you want by all means but i think a new little section would be more convenient.

you've said you're all for the idea, but you keep coming back to the usertitles. i'm not confident in how much you actually support this.

also



seliph said:


> also just a sidenote, "trans" and "transgender" are adjectives, not nouns. they should come before person/people/man/men/woman/women. "transgenders" is incorrect.


----------



## SensaiGallade

Why did such a simple and harmless idea cause such a commotion? Please answer.

Either way, all for it. Calling someone by their preferred pronouns is just a basic level of respect.


----------



## Flyffel

after learning that some people don't like being referred to as "they", I support this option wholeheartedly, there is no harm to it


----------



## Zane

As long as it's optional to display it (like the friend codes) as it's not something I personally would enjoy otherwise.. I didn't even like it when the gender tab got added to profiles to be completely honest; and it still shows up even when I don't put anything there. ;/ Have resisted posting in this topic thus far as I have no idea how to articulate my personal feelings on the matter LoL other than that I dislike being prompted for information about my gender or pronouns.
 However I know there's plenty of people who would really appreciate this feature so I would not say I'm against it. 



Dinosaurz said:


> Idk it?s probably just me I hate everything being about pronouns and gender but as long as it?s not a forced option for me to have idc just have it voluntary



Thought I was odd man out here  I mean I wouldn't say I hate it but I'm a not-cis person and to me my gender is not a significant part of my identity and I actually get a little uncomfortable when it's kind of shoved out into the forefront. That's jus me tho


----------



## seliph

Zane said:


> other than that I dislike being prompted for information about my gender or pronouns.



i feel this tbh if it weren't for constantly being addressed wrong i'd love to just be thought of as a featureless black orb


----------



## SheepMareep

Yea no it would be optional just like everything else is bc not everyone is comfy disclosing that info but there are also people who want to make their pronouns known. Everyone is different  



SensaiGallade said:


> Why did such a simple and harmless idea cause such a commotion? Please answer.
> 
> Either way, all for it. Calling someone by their preferred pronouns is just a basic level of respect.



A lot of people still dont fully understand the use of pronouns//trans people In general so the topic is confusing to them or they have misinformed ideas of it all. Which is why the topic exploded so much from what I see o uo;


----------



## Zanreo

Sounds like a good idea, I'm all for this!


----------



## MasterM64

I've been watching this thread, but wanted to throw in my 2 cents in.

At the end of the day, this comes back to the question of what is gender? Is it what biology defines gender or is it what you feel like truly is you regardless of what gender you were biologically born with? Regardless of how you answer that question, gender is gender and we already have that as part of our profiles. To me, instead of pronouns, just make the gender part of the profile visible in the sidebar and people should be able to use common sense on what pronouns to use. For those who think female, male, or other is not enough, I would think it should be very easy to have additional options. 

For those who think I am against the idea being presented here, I'm not. It simply honestly doesn't matter to me because it will not make or break TBT for what it is in my eyes. I'm just presenting an alternative instead of an additional profile field. o/


----------



## seliph

MasterM64 said:


> At the end of the day, this comes back to the question of what is gender? Is it what biology defines gender or is it what you feel like truly is you regardless of what gender you were biologically born with? Regardless of how you answer that question, gender is gender and we already have that as part of our profiles.



biology has already determined that gender has nothing to do with your body at all.

https://i.ibb.co/kxmB8p4/image.png

https://scopeblog.stanford.edu/2015/02/24/sex-biology-redefined-genes-dont-indicate-binary-sexes/

https://www.teenvogue.com/story/teacher-destroys-transphobia-science

https://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943

https://profeminist.tumblr.com/post/162799773997/10oclockdot-saying-that-man-and-woman-are-the

edit first link kept breaking so have a screenshot



MasterM64 said:


> To me, instead of pronouns, just make the gender part of the profile visible in the sidebar and people should be able to use common sense on what pronouns to use. For those who think female, male, or other is not enough, I would think it should be very easy to have additional options.



this isn't a solid solution as there are lesbians who prefer he/him and there are gay men who prefer she/her. it also isn't very nice to be called "other" - especially when other contains so many genders. it isn't very fair to lump them all into one othered category. pronouns are a much more inclusive option.

of course this isn't a make-or-break feature, it's a nice quality of life addition just like @ mentions, a trade system, or emojis would be.


----------



## oath2order

seliph said:


> biology has already determined that gender has nothing to do with your body at all.
> 
> https://i.ibb.co/kxmB8p4/image.png
> 
> https://scopeblog.stanford.edu/2015/02/24/sex-biology-redefined-genes-dont-indicate-binary-sexes/
> 
> https://www.teenvogue.com/story/teacher-destroys-transphobia-science
> 
> https://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943
> 
> https://profeminist.tumblr.com/post/162799773997/10oclockdot-saying-that-man-and-woman-are-the
> 
> edit first link kept breaking so have a screenshot
> 
> 
> 
> this isn't a solid solution as there are lesbians who prefer he/him and there are gay men who prefer she/her. it also isn't very nice to be called "other" - especially when other contains so many genders. it isn't very fair to lump them all into one othered category. pronouns are a much more inclusive option.
> 
> of course this isn't a make-or-break feature, it's a nice quality of life addition just like @ mentions, a trade system, or emojis would be.



LIKE HOW @ MENTIONS AND EMOJIS *WILL *BE AMIRITE


----------



## Dinosaurz

Zane said:


> As long as it's optional to display it (like the friend codes) as it's not something I personally would enjoy otherwise.. I didn't even like it when the gender tab got added to profiles to be completely honest; and it still shows up even when I don't put anything there. ;/ Have resisted posting in this topic thus far as I have no idea how to articulate my personal feelings on the matter LoL other than that I dislike being prompted for information about my gender or pronouns.
> However I know there's plenty of people who would really appreciate this feature so I would not say I'm against it.
> 
> 
> 
> Thought I was odd man out here  I mean I wouldn't say I hate it but I'm a not-cis person and to me my gender is not a significant part of my identity and I actually get a little uncomfortable when it's kind of shoved out into the forefront. That's jus me tho



Putting pronouns out does make me uncomfortable so I don?t think it should be normalised like that for cis people too :/


----------



## Reginald Fairfield

The less people online know about you, the better.


----------



## RedTropicalPeachyFish

seliph said:


> this isn't a solid solution as there are lesbians who prefer he/him and there are gay men who prefer she/her.


Why they (gays) can't use the pronoun they prefer while trans people can?

So, however.


seliph said:


> i'm sorry but i have a very hard time understanding your posts and i'm guessing it is the language barrier we've got going on. it might also be a mutual misunderstanding.
> 
> 
> Spoiler:
> 
> 
> 
> "i know because i've seen it" refers to how i've seen cis people become more understanding with trans people and pronouns through pronouns being normalized and discussed more.
> 
> "we as a society cannot base how we see trans people or how we think trans people should be based on the few that we know" refers to how we should not expect every trans person to act identically and how we should not base our ideas of all trans people off the actions/behaviours of a few. we're all different, the trans experience is not a universal one.


How I worded it must've been confusing, sorry. 
By conflict/contradiction, I meant this:
While your reply to my thought through personal experiences with my trans friends is the "we cannot base how we see [something: in this case trans people] *based on the few that we know*", on the other hand the basis of your opinion about [something; in this case community change] is "*i know because i've seen it*" - basing off your personal experience that involves "*the few*". It's conflicting as a logic, that was what I meant. Hope this makes sense.

I just don't like it that some of those strong opinions of trans side look somehow inconsiderate of those who wouldn't be comfortable with showing or having to think about personal information that involves gender. When you want your feelings/thoughts/situation to be respected, you should respect feelings/thoughts/situation of people the other side too, that was my point.


----------



## Alienfish

RedTropicalPeachyFish said:


> I just don't like it that some of those strong opinions of trans side look somehow inconsiderate of those who wouldn't be comfortable with showing or having to think about personal information that involves gender. When you want your feelings/thoughts/situation to be respected, you should respect feelings/thoughts/situation of people the other side too, that was my point.



Yeah, I feel the lack of respecting people's opinions here... Unless someone would post something right out trans(or other) phobic people should be open to listen. As much as we should read up on that stuff, that goes for both sides being open and listen.

Also yeah no one should be forced to disclose themselves unless they want to, so yeah make that panel optional to fill out if added.


----------



## Chris

Zane said:


> As long as it's optional to display it (like the friend codes) as it's not something I personally would enjoy otherwise.. I didn't even like it when the gender tab got added to profiles to be completely honest; and it still shows up even when I don't put anything there. ;/ Have resisted posting in this topic thus far as I have no idea how to articulate my personal feelings on the matter LoL other than that I dislike being prompted for information about my gender or pronouns.



Can relate. I had a good moan when we added the gender field years ago as it made (and still continues to make) me uncomfortable that it's visible even when not filled in. I've never selected an option for that reason.


----------



## Alienfish

Vrisnem said:


> Can relate. I had a good moan when we added the gender field years ago as it made (and still continues to make) me uncomfortable that it's visible even when not filled in. I've never selected an option for that reason.



Yeah it's a bit annoying for that and other reasons- and displaying anything like that should be optional.


----------



## SensaiGallade

RedTropicalPeachyFish said:


> Why they (gays) can't use the pronoun they prefer while trans people can?



But gay people can choose their preferred pronouns


----------



## seliph

RedTropicalPeachyFish said:


> Why they (gays) can't use the pronoun they prefer while trans people can?



they can. my point is that not everyone who identifies as female wants to be called she/her, and that not everyone who identifies as male wants to be called he/him. that's why a pronoun option would be better and more inclusive than just a male/female/other option. sorry for the confusion.



RedTropicalPeachyFish said:


> How I worded it must've been confusing, sorry.
> By conflict/contradiction, I meant this:
> While your reply to my thought through personal experiences with my trans friends is the "we cannot base how we see [something: in this case trans people] *based on the few that we know*", on the other hand the basis of your opinion about [something; in this case community change] is "*i know because i've seen it*" - basing off your personal experience that involves "*the few*". It's conflicting as a logic, that was what I meant. Hope this makes sense.
> 
> I just don't like it that some of those strong opinions of trans side look somehow inconsiderate of those who wouldn't be comfortable with showing or having to think about personal information that involves gender. When you want your feelings/thoughts/situation to be respected, you should respect feelings/thoughts/situation of people the other side too, that was my point.



it's ok! i realize it's probably confusing for you too.

"i know because i've seen it" - i'm saying i've seen it happen, and therefore it is a _possibility_. i realize it's not going to always happen, but it can.

"based on the few that we know" - this is just me saying that not every trans person is identical.

sorry if it wasn't clear lol

i fully respect the wishes of everyone who doesn't want to use the feature, i believe i've stated that if this happens that it should be optional, and hopefully if it is incorporated into the sidebar it won't be visible if left blank. however, i will say don't think "i wouldn't use it" is really a solid reason to not add a feature, and that's not limited to this one.


----------



## Reginald Fairfield

We do have minors here, and we got some furry "roleplay enthusiasts" not too long ago. Some less informed frisky buggers could interpret certain ___sexual terms as "ready to mingle".


----------



## seliph

Reginald Fairfield said:


> We do have minors here, and we got some furry "roleplay enthusiasts" not too long ago. Some less informed frisky buggers could interpret certain ___sexual terms as "ready to mingle".



minors can be trans though, sexual orientation and gender identity isn't adult-only. while we're at it, nor are furries - there's plenty who just have a fursona and enjoy/draw anthro animals without anything adult about it. misinterpretation can be easily corrected.

edit i must have skipped over "___sexual terms", gender identities don't end in -sexual anyways.


----------



## SheepMareep

Reginald Fairfield said:


> We do have minors here, and we got some furry "roleplay enthusiasts" not too long ago. Some less informed frisky buggers could interpret certain ___sexual terms as "ready to mingle".



Let me stop you right there.
Gender and sexual identity are not inherently adult in nature. I knew I was not straight since elementary school and I've had friends who were identifying as trans/nb in middle school.
Furries are also not only sexual in nature but that is an entirely different conversation. 
No one is going to look at a pronoun section and think they are "ready to mingle" or whatever that... means...

Gender identity is an IDENTITY not a kink.
Children are not being preyed upon at all because we ask for a pronoun section. just to make it VERY CLEAR trans/nb people are not more likely to be predators in any way. Gonna bite that idea in the butt now since you're thinking this will make the site unsafe for children. 

Children can be, and are, trans.

- - - Post Merge - - -

It is offensive, disgusting, and transphobic/homophobic to even think that we are putting children at risk of people pursuing them because of a simple pronoun option.
Literally vomited in my mouth reading such accusations.


----------



## Dinosaurz

Vrisnem said:


> Can relate. I had a good moan when we added the gender field years ago as it made (and still continues to make) me uncomfortable that it's visible even when not filled in. I've never selected an option for that reason.



When I got banned for 2 years and couldn?t change it brUH I was sad


----------



## Chris

Reginald Fairfield said:


> We do have minors here, and we got some furry "roleplay enthusiasts" not too long ago. Some less informed frisky buggers could interpret certain ___sexual terms as "ready to mingle".



What the OP is proposing is a category that declares pronouns not sexuality. Eg “Pronouns: he/him”. It’s not something that can be sexualised.


----------



## Jacob

here to support this suggestion


----------



## oath2order

Vrisnem said:


> Can relate. I had a good moan when we added the gender field years ago as it made (and still continues to make) me uncomfortable that it's visible even when not filled in. I've never selected an option for that reason.



That seems like an admin issue. If I don't fill in the CityFolk fields, they don't show up. I wonder why gender is different.


----------



## Reginald Fairfield

Vrisnem said:


> What the OP is proposing is a category that declares pronouns not sexuality. Eg “Pronouns: he/him”. It’s not something that can be sexualised.



Would you say my post is an example of a straw man fallacy?



> A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.[1] One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".


----------



## SheepMareep

Reginald Fairfield said:


> Would you say my post is an example of a straw man fallacy?



Yes, your post was very much a straw man. It was an extreme view/opinion not based in fact and with no relevance to my post/idea. 

Similar to me saying we should ban phone usage in school and then someone else saying i want children to be abducted without any means of contacting their family. Or if I were to say we need to increase the amount of government assistance with health care and then someone said I was promoting people to be lazy and not do anything to support themselves. 

In this case I was saying we should include a pronoun option on the forum and you claimed I was putting children in danger of being harassed by adults. My statement had 0 to do with sexual identity to begin with and children are able to identify as trans/nb. Your part was an exaggeration that trans/nb people prey upon children or this will be used as a way to notify someone they are "ready to mingle" as opposed to the actual usage of using proper pronouns to address someone.

(i.e. someone who is male and uses he/him pronouns does not want to be referred to by she/her pronouns.)


----------



## Meowxin

I've noticed quite a bit of options to express one's self image on this forum, so diversifying that into more would only benefit the community as a whole, even if few people use it. I'd heavily agree with something like this, even though I haven't been here long enough in my own opinion to truly get a feel for what's missing.


----------



## Reginald Fairfield

Irishchai said:


> Yes, your post was very much a straw man. It was an extreme view/opinion not based in fact and with no relevance to my post/idea.
> 
> Similar to me saying we should ban phone usage in school and then someone else saying i want children to be abducted without any means of contacting their family. Or if I were to say we need to increase the amount of government assistance with health care and then someone said I was promoting people to be lazy and not do anything to support themselves.
> 
> In this case I was saying we should include a pronoun option on the forum and you claimed I was putting children in danger of being harassed by adults. My statement had 0 to do with sexual identity to begin with and children are able to identify as trans/nb. Your part was an exaggeration that trans/nb people prey upon children or this will be used as a way to notify someone they are "ready to mingle" as opposed to the actual usage of using proper pronouns to address someone.
> 
> (i.e. someone who is male and uses he/him pronouns does not want to be referred to by she/her pronouns.)





> Ad Hominem Fallacy: (abusive and circumstantial): the fallacy of attacking the character or circumstances of an individual who is advancing a statement or an argument instead of seeking to disprove the truth of the statement or the soundness of the argument.



Honestly i don't have an issue with this subject, just how aggressive things have been.


----------



## SheepMareep

I am confused in where me confirming and explaining why your post was a straw man... which you brought up/asked... is hostile. Or how anyone in this thread explaining the usage of pronouns/that something is wrong is hostile. 
The only post I've seen that is necessarily hostile was me pointing out the transphobia/homophobia in your post.


----------



## plantlover

Totally support this idea!


----------



## kkfenrir

support! o7


----------



## vbunny

I'd adore the heck out of that! Coincidentally it'd be pretty great if we could buy (or even as a free item) pride flags in the shop too!


----------



## JoJoCan

I think this is a great idea! +1


----------



## cornimer

Yup this is a great idea! As long as it can be turned on or off so people who don't want to dislay a gender don't have to, it would surely spare many people the discomfort of being misgendered or fearing being misgendered. It would also be faster than checking the profile tab 

Also from reading this thread, it sounds like it might be a good idea to make the profile gender option hideable as welll...


----------



## Fey

I’d honestly rather people practiced addressing users by name and using singular “they” than displaying pronouns, but I’m also not against it if it helps other members. 

Personally, I prefer operating more or less gender-neutrally online, and I only put my gender on the profile because “undisclosed” seemed too much like a statement in itself.


----------



## mocha.

Irishchai said:


> So in our profiles currently we have a "gender" option with male, female, other, and undisclosed options. That's all fine and dandy but I think it would be nice for the forum to include a "pronoun" section visible on our forum posts (under the avatar maybe?)
> 
> Including your pronouns not only allows people to know how to address you properly, but also makes the community more open to our trans and nb friends! Normalizing asking someone's pronouns and saying your own even if you are cis is important to creating an inclusive and understanding community.
> 
> Just wanted to put the idea out there! If this isnt the right area to post this please let me know
> 
> Edit: *INFORMATIONAL LINKS*
> 
> Helpful definitions regarding trans/nb/gender identity terms
> Short FAQ on pronoun usage!



Fully support this - especially with such an inclusive community!


----------



## Kub

Hi, hello! I am just popping into this discussion to say that I am in support of this  thank you!


----------



## sierra

Good looking out, Chai.


----------



## lapaa

This is an excellent idea! I hope we can see this implemented


----------



## Ley

is there a way to open up a poll?


----------



## SheepMareep

Ley said:


> is there a way to open up a poll?



Not now no :c I would of had to at the beginning, completely skipped my mind


----------



## Freya

I absolutely love this idea. I hope it gets implemented for those who'd like to disclose their pronouns!


----------



## Damniel

yes i like this. by making it optional there’s literally no reason to be against it. anyone arguing an optional pronoun feature is just unreasonable

admins should make sure that both the pronouns section and gender identity bio section are made optional and hidden when not filled out. *it’s okay if you don’t want to fill those sections in*, no one can force you. but just like others can’t force you to show your pronouns/identity, *you have no reason to stop someone else from choosing to disclose them.* (all about them negative rights) for those that don’t see a need for this, this thread shows that there’s a clear demand for this feature, so it should be included 

also by the age of this thread i think we should hear some input by an admin about implementing this (they’re probably busy with TBT 3.0 but this should be considered after the transition)


----------



## windwake-me-up-inside

Would love a feature like this!


----------



## shendere

i think this is a great idea. the "other" i suppose works as well, but also, many people have regular images up that don't show their identities nor do their usernames show this- so many people here don't know who is male/female/they/them/etc unless we personally interact and talk more with them so i think it's fine as is for the most part bc getting that deep to know who identifies as what and what they're comfortable using is usually learned by talking to them or visiting their about me page if you're that curious ^^

edit: also, most people i've seen here, usually just refer to each other by their usernames unless they've personally spoken to them more to know them like that to call them she/he/they/them (though they/them is also used at times)


----------



## sleepydreepy

I think this would be a great feature! I hope they consider adding this to the new forum design!


----------



## Antonio

I would love to bring this topic back up for discussion because 3.0 is here and I'm still having problems knowing/remembering people's pronouns.

I would love this feature.


----------



## Cadbberry

I think this is a wonderful idea, it makes sure everyone gets respected while also offering a safer space!


----------



## SheepMareep

Antonio said:


> I would love to bring this topic back up for discussion because 3.0 is here and I'm still having problems knowing/remembering people's pronouns.
> 
> I would love this feature.


I was actually just thinking about this again too!!!
Was really hoping it would of gotten added in months ago


----------



## Lucky22

Yeah totally thatd be so rad!


----------



## SheepMareep

Have any mods looked this over at all...? It would be nice to have some kind of an update if it is being added in or not.


----------



## xSuperMario64x

LambdaDelta said:


> I do this so hard, I'll sometimes accidentally use gender neutral pronouns even when I know the person's gender


Same here, I often find myself saying they even if I know their pronoun.


----------



## Fizzii

I see no issue with it if it were to be optional! I see no negative really


----------



## Arithmophobia17

fully support this idea!!!


----------



## Proxy6228420

I personally don't have any issues with pronouns, but I think this will be nice for people who do care and want to tell people their pronoun instead of just bringing it up in conversation


----------



## daisyy

Another vote for pronouns ! I can’t think of anyone who wouldn’t benefit from this. It can be othering to have to constantly reassert your pronouns, especially so on a board about game that’s supposed to be fun and relaxed.


----------



## Sloom

well I'm late to the party but you have my vote.

obligatory but actually not at all obligatory I'm not trans or nb, but I would actually like this myself because a lot of people assume im a boyboy man male man dudeguy based on my in-game character lol so it'd be handy for me but MORE IMPORTANTLY real nice for the clearly masses of people on here that want it. everybody wins!


----------



## Jokesie

Sounds like a great idea ~ however don't make this a required option. I'm not keen on being forced to pick a pronoun.  Would rather not have any pronouns attached to my profile at all actually.


----------



## peachp1t

im only issue is that some people use combinations of pronouns (like he and they or he, she, and they) and also some people use neopronouns (of which there are WAY too many to list)
so imo it would be best if it was typed out by the user and not a list to choose from like the genders (which i personally already find a bit,,, restricting but it is nice)

(also not quite a fan of the "dont force it on us!!!" thing, no-one mentioned it being required as far as im aware?? pretty sure theyd include a blank/dont show option like the gender dude, calm down)


----------



## Fridaynightcatlady

Reginald Fairfield said:


> We do have minors here, and we got some furry "roleplay enthusiasts" not too long ago. Some less informed frisky buggers could interpret certain ___sexual terms as "ready to mingle".



I don’t understand this reasoning at all with what OP is trying to propose (which I fully support btw, go pronouns!). Could you explain fruther?


----------



## SheepMareep

peachp1t said:


> im only issue is that some people use combinations of pronouns (like he and they or he, she, and they) and also some people use neopronouns (of which there are WAY too many to list)
> so imo it would be best if it was typed out by the user and not a list to choose from like the genders (which i personally already find a bit,,, restricting but it is nice)
> 
> (also not quite a fan of the "dont force it on us!!!" thing, no-one mentioned it being required as far as im aware?? pretty sure theyd include a blank/dont show option like the gender dude, calm down)


Yes! Earlier in the thread I believe it was already discussed this was the intention c:  (if not then it was always the intention in my brain lmaoo) there are too many pronouns for a drop down list and they are subject to change so it should be possible for people to type in their own pronouns if this were implemented. (Mods wya.)

	Post automatically merged: May 2, 2020



Jokesie said:


> Sounds like a great idea ~ however don't make this a required option. I'm not keen on being forced to pick a pronoun.  Would rather not have any pronouns attached to my profile at all actually.


As stated earlier in this thread it would be optional of course just like any other peice of information in your profile!


----------



## Reginald Fairfield

SirBadger said:


> I don’t understand this reasoning at all with what OP is trying to propose (which I fully support btw, go pronouns!). Could you explain fruther?


That was an attempt to draw their attention from people I like, it worked.


----------



## peachp1t

Reginald Fairfield said:


> That was an attempt to draw their attention from people I like, it worked.


so you were just screwing with people who are trying to suggest something nice that would help people??? really dont get the point but cool beans dude, you made a fool of yourself


----------



## seliph

Reginald Fairfield said:


> That was an attempt to draw their attention from people I like, it worked.


the sexualization of lgbt identities is already a huge issue and is something the community has been combating irl for decades, making a joke about it as a "distraction" is incredibly ignorant and disparaging at best


----------



## cloudmask

i think this would a wonderful addition! a full vote in favor.


----------



## Reginald Fairfield

peachp1t said:


> so you were just screwing with people who are trying to suggest something nice that would help people??? really dont get the point but cool beans dude, you made a fool of yourself


No.


----------



## peachp1t

Reginald Fairfield said:


> No.


what, exactly, were you doing then??? it really seems like you were just. being rude and distracting to get negative attention


----------



## Chris

Let's keep this friendly, please. This issue was cleared up earlier in the thread: there is nothing inherently sexual about declaring gender pronouns.


----------



## SolaireOfAstora

It's a good idea since none of us know everybody's gender off the bat. It's just useful when referencing people tbh


----------



## deleted

As a member of the LGBT community, I support this! Until it gets added, I put my pronouns in my signature.


----------



## SheepMareep

Still waiting on response from the mods.
Think its funny so many other requests will get addressed rather quickly and this one hasnt had any serious input as to whether it will be implemented or not but has been moderated in general.
Been a few months now.


----------



## IonicKarma

I think its a good idea!  I personally probably won't use it because I try not to reveal anything personal about myself but I can imagine its useful for some people!


----------



## Llunavale

Sure, I don't see any reason why this couldn't be a thing...

Edit: It has been a while since this thread was made to be fair, pretty sure we've had custom fields added for island name and stuff since this thread was created, so clearly it's possible.


----------



## SheepMareep

Llunavale said:


> Sure, I don't see any reason why this couldn't be a thing...
> 
> Edit: It has been a while since this thread was made to be fair, pretty sure we've had custom fields added for island name and stuff since this thread was created, so clearly it's possible.


My point exactly.
I wasnt as concerned at first because they were working on the 3.0 update but.
For the thread to be regularly modded (for instance I got an infraction for posting "bump" to boost this back to the 1st page when more people joined the site) and for other requests on this forum to be addressed almost immediately is really.... um. Idek how to word it aside from offensive?

If the mods can spend a good chunk of the day removing comments in threads that are "off topic" I dont see why not one has actually given any REAL comment on the implementation of this *simple* feature.

Really not trying to come off as rude or anything but it's ridiculous and unprofessional  makes me feel some kind of way and I'm not even someone who directly benefits from pronoun usage.
This forum is like... the only ac community I know of that doesnt encourage pronoun usage.

I'm in like 7 discord groups and every single one BUT the bell tree one has a role option for it. Even on ac twitter the majority of blogs show their pronouns in the bio to be inclusive 

Of course we can continue to use our signatures and titles but a designated spot will be MUCH better for multiple reasons I've stated prior in the thread. (Inclusive to the trans/nb community, normalization of asking when you meet someone, etc.)

For this to be so blatantly ignored is very agitating especially since I like using this site.


----------



## Mikaiah

one concern with this (technical, I'm in support of this idea ofc) is that profile info and signatures don't display on mobile due to limited spacing.


----------



## SheepMareep

Mikaiah said:


> one concern with this (technical, I'm in support of this idea ofc) is that profile info and signatures don't display on mobile due to limited spacing.


This was made prior to the update to the new server (we could still see everything on mobile then) and I hadn't even thought of that !
if they add it in they should include it above the title below our username. That way there are no issues with spacing.

Since we also cannot see signatures on mobile it restricts the places available for us to place our pronouns for everyone to see and further indicates the need for this feature. Thank for you pointing this out!!


----------



## galactickat4240

I don't know if I responded to this thread but anyways I'm in full support of this idea! I wish that the mods would come to this thread so they could implement this feature, it would make the forum a welcoming safe place :>


----------



## meggtheegg

this would make the forums that much more welcoming, inclusive, and progressive in only a positive way tbh..


----------



## Chris

We hadn't forgotten about the thread, but we didn't want to rush to a verdict either.

It has been discussed several times among the team now, and we feel the section to the left of posts should be used for game-related information rather than personal information. This means that at this time we do not intend to add a pronoun field visible on posts. It is something we may consider adding to user profiles, but this would still require going to the user's profile to view it just like the gender field (which you may or may have not noticed you can now opt-out of displaying).

For those of you who do wish to make your pronouns immediately known, please use your user title or signature. As pointed out previously, the user title is better for this if you wish for it to be visible on the mobile site as well. We fully encourage the use of gender-neutral pronouns over making assumptions. If you are unsure you are free to ask someone, but do understand that some people are not comfortable with disclosing this information.


----------



## SheepMareep

Vrisnem said:


> We hadn't forgotten about the thread, but we didn't want to rush to a verdict either.
> 
> It has been discussed several times among the team now, and we feel the section to the left of posts should be used for game-related information rather than personal information. This means that at this time we do not intend to add a pronoun field visible on posts. It is something we may consider adding to user profiles, but this would still require going to the user's profile to view it just like the gender field (which you may or may have not noticed you can now opt-out of displaying).
> 
> For those of you who do wish to make your pronouns immediately known, please use your user title or signature. As pointed out previously, the user title is better for this if you wish for it to be visible on the mobile site as well. We fully encourage the use of gender-neutral pronouns over making assumptions. If you are unsure you are free to ask someone, but do understand that some people are not comfortable with disclosing this information.


Sorry for the late reply I've been busy but!
Isnt there any way to add it to the top area with our username and title? Those are not game related and already are ways for people to identify us. Adding in pronouns could be as simple as smaller gray text next to the username 

I say this because the signatures do not appear on mobile and the titles a lot of people would prefer not to use only for their pronouns while others have cool little descriptors.


----------



## lars708

I personally don't really mind what people address me as because there is always going to be a group of people who don't pay attention to that sorta thing. But it'd be nice to have for the people who are very mindful about it.

Edit: I suppose user title it is oops


----------



## Sicariana

Honestly, I think that if displaying your pronouns is super important to you, you can just use your user title or signature. I would imagine that only a small minority of BTF users actually feel the need to display their pronouns, so it wouldn't make a lot of sense to make a separate field to display them when most people wouldn't use it.


----------



## Hanzoisbae

SheepMareep said:


> So in our profiles currently we have a "gender" option with male, female, other, and undisclosed options. That's all fine and dandy but I think it would be nice for the forum to include a "pronoun" section visible on our forum posts (under the avatar maybe?)
> 
> Including your pronouns not only allows people to know how to address you properly, but also makes the community more open to our trans and nb friends! Normalizing asking someone's pronouns and saying your own even if you are cis is important to creating an inclusive and understanding community.
> 
> Just wanted to put the idea out there! If this isnt the right area to post this please let me know
> 
> Edit: *INFORMATIONAL LINKS*
> 
> Helpful definitions regarding trans/nb/gender identity terms
> Short FAQ on pronoun usage!


yeah, having the option to put it under your name would be good for others.


----------



## seliph

Sicariana said:


> Honestly, I think that if displaying your pronouns is super important to you, you can just use your user title or signature. I would imagine that only a small minority of BTF users actually feel the need to display their pronouns, so it wouldn't make a lot of sense to make a separate field to display them when most people wouldn't use it.



the title/signature point has already been addressed but as for the rest of your post i disagree, i'd imagine if the option is there the more people will use it.

however i also don't think baseless estimations on how much a feature will be utilized are really solid arguments whether for or against them.


----------



## Sicariana

seliph said:


> the title/signature point has already been addressed but as for the rest of your post i disagree, i'd imagine if the option is there the more people will use it.
> 
> however i also don't think baseless estimations on how much a feature will be utilized are really solid arguments whether for or against them.


I think this thread has strayed away from allowing people to display their pronouns and more toward pushing an agenda on the mods. The fact is that if you actually want to display your pronouns,* you already can*. There is nothing stopping you from putting them in your signature or title.


----------



## Antonio

Sicariana said:


> I think this thread has strayed away from allowing people to display their pronouns and more toward pushing an agenda on the mods. The fact is that if you actually want to display your pronouns,* you already can*. There is nothing stopping you from putting them in your signature or title.


You can also put your switch code/town name in your signature/title. Wouldn't you argue that there is no need for those fields since they can be put on your signature/title...


----------



## deSPIRIA

if it was an option that the website had itself instead of how it is right now i would feel much more comfortable telling people my pronouns that way (which is something i have been questioning since my last post) but maybe im the only one who feels like that


----------



## Sicariana

Antonio said:


> You can also put your switch code/town name in your signature/title. Wouldn't you argue that there is no need for those fields since they can be put on your signature/title...


I would argue that everyone has a switch code, whereas <1% of people don't use she/her or he/his pronouns.


----------



## deSPIRIA

Sicariana said:


> I would argue that everyone has a switch code, whereas <1% of people don't use she/her or he/his pronouns.



even if thats the case it is still useful for people who use she/her and he/his pronouns


----------



## Antonio

Sicariana said:


> I would argue that everyone has a switch code, whereas <1% of people don't use she/her or he/his pronouns.


Ok but this isn't about using other pronouns that are uncommon, it's about not assuming one's pronouns based on their avatar/username alone. I have assumed male users were girls and female users are boys before and I'm not the only one. Not everyone's gender identify is clearly stated hence why it should be added without it interfering with people's signature/titles which people already use for other purposes and don't want to erase what they currently have or add extra to something that's already there.


----------



## Chris

SheepMareep said:


> Sorry for the late reply I've been busy but!
> Isnt there any way to add it to the top area with our username and title? Those are not game related and already are ways for people to identify us. Adding in pronouns could be as simple as smaller gray text next to the username
> 
> I say this because the signatures do not appear on mobile and the titles a lot of people would prefer not to use only for their pronouns while others have cool little descriptors.



As previously stated, we have made the decision not to add a pronoun field visible on posts.


----------



## SheepMareep

Vrisnem said:


> As previously stated, we have made the decision not to add a pronoun field visible on posts.


Yes I saw that but the reasoning was to keep the sidebar game related only.
The title and username are both not game related so I was suggesting an area be made there since the reason for not adding them had to do with type of content. 

While we can obviously put them in the title it is more inclusive and helpful to give everyone the prompt to add this if they would like. It's not forcing anything onto anyone and is really just.. a simple feature so I'm sorry if I come off as repetitive but I truly do not understand the adversion to adding this.


----------



## seliph

Sicariana said:


> I think this thread has strayed away from allowing people to display their pronouns and more toward pushing an agenda on the mods. The fact is that if you actually want to display your pronouns,* you already can*. There is nothing stopping you from putting them in your signature or title.


if this is your viewpoint then i don't think you've read the whole thread. we have stated why signatures aren't a viable option, especially now that they aren't visible on mobile. we've mentioned how having to resort to using our user titles in order to avoid being misgendered is unfair.

i still don't understand why you think this would be a relatively unused feature. i realize i've neglected giving my rebuttal some backbone as well so i'll do it now:

the animal crossing community has a HUGE lgbt fanbase, and i've seen more and more new lgbt people join tbt since new horizons' release. some already have their pronouns in their signature, i'd imagine they'd input them into their sidebar if given the option. it has also become more and more normalized for cis + straight people to display their pronouns on social media, and therefore i imagine it'd transfer over here as well.


----------



## thedragmeme

I'm not really one to jump onto loaded opinion trains but I would really like people to stop assuming I'm a guy. Please.


----------



## Antonio

For mobile users, you can add it there. 4 options can fit since I can see my warnings up there...


----------



## SheepMareep

Antonio said:


> View attachment 258514
> 
> For mobile users, you can add it there. 4 options can fit since I can see my warnings up there...


Oooo I like that, theres plenty of space there. Could go right next to age without any issue at all!


----------



## moonbox

was thinking the same thing! love the idea of this


----------



## angelmutt

Peter said:


> def on board with this too . we're a very inclusive community and i think it would be right for the site to show this as well


legit just quoted you bc i love your signature! did you draw it?



ALSO YES I WOULD LOVE A PRONOUNS OPTION


----------



## toenuki

for the forum? sounds fine to me, as long as theres an option for everyone and no bizarre options (we all know THOSE options)


----------



## meatballsaregood

i like this idea! so no one steps on any toes and accidentally offends anyone. if the forums main goal is to create a welcoming peaceful community, i believe this will help further that goal!


----------



## Rubombee

MayorAri said:


> for the forum? sounds fine to me, as long as theres an option for everyone and no bizarre options (we all know THOSE options)


Dang I can't believe my first post here after reading everything is gonna be this but,
1. I believe it was said earlier that it'd just be easier to make it a space you can type your pronouns in, 2. …no, I have no idea what you're talking about? I hope I'm not about to bring heated discussion back because this thread is way better when it's just filled with people on board with the idea _(which I am too!! I love this idea!! :D)_ — but I don't like to leave possible misinformation out… so, maybe I've completely misread your post, but what did you mean exactly?


----------



## Cadbberry

Rubombee said:


> Dang I can't believe my first post here after reading everything is gonna be this but,
> 1. I believe it was said earlier that it'd just be easier to make it a space you can type your pronouns in, 2. …no, I have no idea what you're talking about? I hope I'm not about to bring heated discussion back because this thread is way better when it's just filled with people on board with the idea _(which I am too!! I love this idea!! :D)_ — but I don't like to leave possible misinformation out… so, maybe I've completely misread your post, but what did you mean exactly?


If I am reading it right, I think they are talking about people not respecting pronouns and putting nonoptions like'helicopter' as their gender.


----------



## Rubombee

Cadbberry said:


> If I am reading it right, I think they are talking about people not respecting pronouns and putting nonoptions like'helicopter' as their gender.


Ahh I see. Well I can't find it again in all the pages but I think someone earlier said that this kind of behavior can happen in pretty much every customizable field of one's profile, I agree and think it's much more practical to write it than to have a drop-down menu :'D


----------



## toenuki

Rubombee said:


> Dang I can't believe my first post here after reading everything is gonna be this but,
> 1. I believe it was said earlier that it'd just be easier to make it a space you can type your pronouns in, 2. …no, I have no idea what you're talking about? I hope I'm not about to bring heated discussion back because this thread is way better when it's just filled with people on board with the idea _(which I am too!! I love this idea!! :D)_ — but I don't like to leave possible misinformation out… so, maybe I've completely misread your post, but what did you mean exactly?


yeah thats what i mean. i mean the weird ones like xer/xe/ xem which the community is actively against, and the numerous randomly created things from a couple years back (that created discourse within the community) as well as any insults


----------



## thedragmeme

This community is very wholesome and understanding, unlike the nookazon heathens I've ran into. 
"Oh are you buying these pink flowers for your girlfriend" 
"Shouldn't guys be getting black and blue hybrids"
"Why do you, a person I am assuming is male, purchasing all of these frilly and cute items" 
Like bruh just take my nmt and leave me alone


----------



## SheepMareep

thedragmeme said:


> This community is very wholesome and understanding, unlike the nookazon heathens I've ran into.
> "Oh are you buying these pink flowers for your girlfriend"
> "Shouldn't guys be getting black and blue hybrids"
> "Why do you, a person I am assuming is male, purchasing all of these frilly and cute items"
> Like bruh just take my nmt and leave me alone


I've managed to avoid nookazon (luckily) and that just sounds horrible omg
This forum is definitley kinder than others for the most part, and I'm sure adding this feature would only help people be more inclusive unlike other platforms c:


----------



## Rosie Moon

This would be really useful! Even though I’m a cis girl with a female character in my avatar, I‘ve still been called ‘he’ on the forum before lol.


----------



## virtualpet

We'd love the option to input pronouns, although we have it in our signature we can see how it would be useful. 

I'd say that should include neopronouns too, ideally with the ability to just put in your own since I think that would be super helpful. A lot of us in this system tend to use ae/aem when we can (usually to refer to ourselves individually because they/them gets confusing as a system), so neopronoun allowance would be nice to see.


----------



## seliph

MayorAri said:


> yeah thats what i mean. i mean the weird ones like xer/xe/ xem which the community is actively against, and the numerous randomly created things from a couple years back (that created discourse within the community) as well as any insults


the community is not actively against neopronouns. they're completely normal, and pronouns aside from she/he/they have been around for at least decades. they aren't hurting anyone.


----------



## cloudmask

soundgarden said:


> if it was an option that the website had itself instead of how it is right now i would feel much more comfortable telling people my pronouns that way (which is something i have been questioning since my last post) but maybe im the only one who feels like that



i completely agree. i added my pronouns to my signature and i was really nervous about it because, with no actual option for it right now, i feel like it really "others" you. like on twitter, you can write your pronouns in your bio, but then transphobes will start referring to you as "pronouns in bio" and suddenly that's all you are, just because you don't want to be misgendered.

if there were an actual option for it then it would not feel "othering", and like others have pointed out, cis people would use it too and it would become normalized.

i understand that mods don't want it to be added to sidebar bc it isnt game-related but i don't see why it can't be a profile option like gender and birthday.


----------



## Antonio

Also, when you hover/click a name, it shows a profile which mentions age/location. Why can't pronouns show up there.


----------



## toenuki

seliph said:


> the community is not actively against neopronouns. they're completely normal, and pronouns aside from she/he/they have been around for at least decades. they aren't hurting anyone.



you've responded to multiple people. 5 people may like your comment, but i'm not dumb. there WAS a huge discourse. i will admit now not so much, but a while back (a few years) there was a lot (****i should have specified the 'actively')

i'm not sure what other sites or apps you use, but i've seen a good few people against neopronouns due to how it caused people to mock the community, and how some people created them to be trendy or straight up INSULT the community... it kinda goes back to that tumblr era people kinda think back on. many activist accounts dislike them now.

I'm ending the conversation here, this is not going to be a fight since we all agree with the thread. enjoy your days and nights


----------



## toenuki

and for the original thread poster: i was not trying to insult you! im not sure how you thought that from my original comment, but that was not the intention. sorry for any confusion!


----------



## Dae

MayorAri said:


> many people are against neopronouns due to how it caused people to mock the community. i also mean any insulting pronouns they may put in as well but idk where you've been? theres been a lot in recent years. i mean the extreme neopros. though im not here to cause a fight, idk who you've been talking to.


(I'm sorry if you're not opposing of neo-pronouns in this reply, I'm reading it as kind of ambiguous so excuse me if I'm misinterpreting your intentions in this. But I'd still like to get this off my chest regardless, if only for others who could be one of those people within the community that you're talking about)

So I get this, and I could understand the feel of frustration at people, who in your opinion, seem to be making it harder for the community you're defending to be taken seriously. I've caught myself being guilty of it before, but it's important to think about Why exactly you want to police the people to suppress their expression in fear of you looking silly, instead of fighting to have them be taken more seriously by opposers? It's similar to how masculine gay men can feel spite towards feminine gay men for fitting oppressive stereotypes. Or binary trans people who make efforts to convert transphobes by appealing to their existing sensibilities and ideas of the gender binary, being upset at the existence of gender-nonconforming trans people because they force open the discussion that those previous sensibilities are actually completely wrong altogether, and it puts a damper in that binary trans persons efforts. But it's important not to become a gatekeeper only the sake of public image towards The Straights. You shouldn't make those """outliers""" of the community fight their own battles just because you're afraid of the shame of being seen with them, if that makes any sense.


----------



## toenuki

Dae said:


> (I'm sorry if you're not opposing of neopronouns in this reply, I'm reading it as kind of ambiguous so excuse me if I'm misinterpreting your intentions in this, but I'd still like to get this off my chest regardless if only for others who could be one of those people within the community that you're talking about)
> 
> So I get this, and I could understand the feel of frustration at people, who in your opinion, seem to be making it harder for the community you're defending to be taken seriously. I've caught myself being guilty of it before, but it's important to think about Why exactly you want to police the people to suppress their expression in fear of you looking silly, instead of fighting to have them taken more seriously by opposers? I feel it's similar to more masculine gay men feeling spite towards more feminine gay men for fitting oppressive stereotypes. Or binary trans people who make efforts to try and convert transphobes by appealing to their existing sensibilities and ideas of the gender binary, being upset at the existence of gender-nonconforming people because it opens up the discussion that those sensibilities are actually in fact, completely wrong and it puts a damper in that binary trans persons efforts. But it's important not to become a gatekeeper only the sake of public image towards The Straights. You shouldn't make those """outliers""" of the community fight their own battles just because you'd afraid of shame of being seen with them, if that makes sense.


Oh, no worries! if im understanding this right...

im against neopronouns as they became just... bizarre over the years. i edited my post to clarify even more! anyone who is trans, nb, etc are perfectly cool. its the people who ARENT who created them for mockery or trends. they are annoying and painted a bad image years ago that took a while to heal (which made community members and activists angry)


----------



## skylucario

if this is implemented, i hope there will be an option to turn the field off/say ‘undisclosed’, as with the age field. 


i don’t want people to assume stuff about me based upon my preferred pronouns; would prefer that they get to know me first. i like leaving it ambiguous for that reason. if anyone is *really* curious, it’s in my bio. would just rather not have it front and center.


----------



## Chris

cloudmask said:


> i understand that mods don't want it to be added to sidebar bc it isnt game-related but i don't see why it can't be a profile option like gender and birthday.



We have not ruled out the possibility of eventually adding it to the profile 'About' page next to the existing gender field. The only thing we have made a hard decision on is that we will not be adding it anywhere on user posts.


----------



## deSPIRIA

cloudmask said:


> i completely agree. i added my pronouns to my signature and i was really nervous about it because, with no actual option for it right now, i feel like it really "others" you. like on twitter, you can write your pronouns in your bio, but then transphobes will start referring to you as "pronouns in bio" and suddenly that's all you are, just because you don't want to be misgendered.



yeah this is exactly how i feel but i couldnt quite put it into words. on twitter ur seen as some kind of deranged person just because u want to express ur identity in some way when there isnt an official way to. tbt is definitely a more accepting and inclusive community but it still worries me enough to not mention it in my title/sig


----------



## starlightsong

I'm super late to finding this thread, read through the whole thing and I see the mods already said no to this suggestion--but I really really wish they'd reconsider. I mean, like others here have said, the user title literally already isn't game related so why can't it just be below that?? Or even in the little section that shows when you click someone's username, which, unlike signatures, works on mobile? I'm genderfluid and change between different pronouns from time to time but I never thought having them on here mattered until someone called me she, and it made me uncomfortable but I didn't wanna say anything because I didn't wanna be seen as weird or overreacting. And I just _know _the reason it happened is because of my avatar, which I don't really wanna change because it's art from my girlfriend that I've been using for years and I have no idea what I'd use in place of it. I also don't wanna stick my pronouns in my title because I feel awkward about it due to what cloudmask and soundgarden both mentioned, in addition to the fact that several people on this thread have been judgemental about how anyone who changes their pronouns frequently is supposedly using gender as an accessory and looking for attention! Like, I actually feel less comfortable here in general after having read through all the replies and just because some trans people don't see the need for a solution doesn't mean nobody does.


----------



## seliph

MayorAri said:


> you've responded to multiple people. 5 people may like your comment, but i'm not dumb. there WAS a huge discourse. i will admit now not so much, but a while back (a few years) there was a lot (****i should have specified the 'actively')
> 
> i'm not sure what other sites or apps you use, but i've seen a good few people against neopronouns due to how it caused people to mock the community, and how some people created them to be trendy or straight up INSULT the community... it kinda goes back to that tumblr era people kinda think back on. many activist accounts dislike them now.
> 
> I'm ending the conversation here, this is not going to be a fight since we all agree with the thread. enjoy your days and nights


there was discourse, i wasn't denying that. i'm denying the community being actively against neopronouns. witnessing "a good few" isn't grounds to tell part of the community that the rest of us are actively against them. it's harmful and is doing nothing but driving us apart. i am glad you clarified especially since neopronouns are actually becoming more accepted nowadays.

the tumblr discourse you're referring to started with trolls from places like 4chan making accounts on tumblr and making bizarre claims that they identify as gods/demons/angels/royalty. it was a weird ploy against both otherkin and trans people that tried to paint the two as the same thing to outsiders - which worked - and pin the trans community against each other - which also worked. they'd insist that people refer to them as gods/etc using "pronouns" like "your highness" and "your holiness" and often become violently aggressive when people didn't. trans people with neopronouns somehow ended up taking a lot of very misplaced blame for this when, to no surprise, the real culprit was actual transphobes all along.


----------



## toenuki

seliph said:


> there was discourse, i wasn't denying that. i'm denying the community being actively against neopronouns. witnessing "a good few" isn't grounds to tell part of the community that the rest of us are actively against them. it's harmful and is doing nothing but driving us apart. i am glad you clarified especially since neopronouns are actually becoming more accepted nowadays.
> 
> the tumblr discourse you're referring to started with trolls from places like 4chan making accounts on tumblr and making bizarre claims that they identify as gods/demons/angels/royalty. it was a weird ploy against both otherkin and trans people that tried to paint the two as the same thing to outsiders - which worked - and pin the trans community against each other - which also worked. they'd insist that people refer to them as gods/etc using "pronouns" like "your highness" and "your holiness" and often become violently aggressive when people didn't. trans people with neopronouns somehow ended up taking a lot of very misplaced blame for this when, to no surprise, the real culprit was actual transphobes all along.


That's what i said though. it was for people who were trendy or hateful- WE AGREED WITH EACHOTHER !!! neopronouns arent as common as before, but there were some damn bizarre ones back a few years. I'm glad we came to a conclusion though!

	Post automatically merged: May 15, 2020



soundgarden said:


> yeah this is exactly how i feel but i couldnt quite put it into words. on twitter ur seen as some kind of deranged person just because u want to express ur identity in some way when there isnt an official way to. tbt is definitely a more accepting and inclusive community but it still worries me enough to not mention it in my title/sig


twitter is insane im honestly not surprised.


----------



## seliph

MayorAri said:


> That's what i said though. it was for people who were trendy or hateful- WE AGREED WITH EACHOTHER !!! neopronouns arent as common as before, but there were some damn bizarre ones back a few years


i don't think we did totally agree? especially the "i mean the weird ones like xer/xe/ xem" comment, i don't know if that's another matter of miscommunication but those and their variants like ze/xir are among the less, for lack of a better term, unusual neopronouns and have been around since before internet discourse was even a thing. i also don't think "trendiness" is an actual problem, i think people are experimenting with their gender/gender expression and that's just fine.

aside from that i'm literally just explaining the discourse.


----------



## toenuki

seliph said:


> i don't think we did totally agree? especially the "i mean the weird ones like xer/xe/ xem" comment, i don't know if that's another matter of miscommunication but those and their variants like ze/xir are among the less, for lack of a better term, unusual neopronouns and have been around since before internet discourse was even a thing. i also don't think "trendiness" is an actual problem, i think people are experimenting with their gender/gender expression and that's just fine.
> 
> aside from that i'm literally just explaining the discourse.


People had an issue with xer/xem bc of the strangeness of it, since it wasnt what they were fighting for essentially. they were what made some people really hostile (though they arent super common now) and then the added 4chan stuff just made it worse. but neopronouns arent as used now so its not a super hot topic issue unlike a few years back

but overall im p much done with this conversation, we've kinda repeated eachother in some aspects. i mean no hostility, we're all kind here.


----------



## seliph

MayorAri said:


> People had an issue with xer/xem bc of the strangeness of it, since it wasnt what they were fighting for essentially. they were what made some people really hostile (though they arent super common now) and then the added 4chan stuff just made it worse. but neopronouns arent as used now so its not a super hot topic issue unlike a few years back
> 
> but overall im p much done with this conversation, we've kinda repeated eachother in some aspects. i mean no hostility, we're all kind here.


sure they did, maybe i'm misinterpreting your posts as you yourself finding neopronouns inherently weird & therein lies the confusion


----------



## toenuki

seliph said:


> sure they did, maybe i'm misinterpreting your posts as you yourself finding neopronouns inherently weird & therein lies the confusion


I wouldn't insult anyone with them, but its just not as important as establishing trans rights and they/them imo. they arent in massive demand anymore as many people ended up finding an identity and established themselves as they got older


----------



## SheepMareep

Neopronouns have had a bad reputation in previous years, as seliph explained, due to trolls from other online communities such as 4chan making fake accounts on social media sites such as tumblr or twitter to try and turn the use of pronouns into a joke. However, neopronouns like xer/xem are not the "weird" ones people were necessarily against from what *I* personally saw. What people were against were the trolls who would make very strange claims, while also joking about the other kin community, that they identified as a tree or as a bug and would make their pronouns some kind of pun on those and then stir up drama.

Gender is not a choice between 3 options. sometimes people do not fit into the she/her, he/him, or they/them pronouns when they think of their own identity. especially when they ate only just starting to think about it and explore their gender identity. It is important to respect a person's pronouns even if they are something you personally are not used to. Hence the reason why we need it to be a visible area for people to become accustomed to thinking of someone's pronouns and having the urge to ask prior to addressing them.
Looking at anyone you cannot directly tell their pronouns. Someone who is gender fluid or still trying to find and come to terms with their identity may change them frequently or every so often.

Of course there will always be *that* person who makes it into a joke and will try to make the pronoun section into something horrible to make fun of trans people. But it's important to foster an open and loving community that pushes those outliers to the side and gives trans/nb people the confidence and security they need to fully express themselves and be allowed to live without having to put on a mask and be someone else in a relatively safe area.

I did not even think of the fear that comes with putting your pronouns in an area that is not designated. I personally only recently started to use twitter for acnh and had no idea people would refer to those with pronouns in their bio like that. And it only solidifies my stance that we should have a section here after reading the experience and feelings of others.

I know its still being debated/that it is currently a "no" but even so I'll keep posting here and bringing up the discussion until it is added in. I understand why some mods may not want this section. I understand not everyone is aware of or open to the idea of trans/nb people existing. But as someone who is about to go into the health care field and fight for these same changes from the inside I cant give up the first time I'm told no.  I'm stubborn when it comes to things that are important.


----------



## seliph

SheepMareep said:


> I know its still being debated/that it is currently a "no" but even so I'll keep posting here and bringing up the discussion until it is added in. I understand why some mods may not want this section. I understand not everyone is aware of or open to the idea of trans/nb people existing. But as someone who is about to go into the health care field and fight for these same changes from the inside I cant give up the first time I'm told no.  I'm stubborn when it comes to things that are important.



my friend and i made a push for gender markers back in like 2016 (which i'm sure i can speak for both of us in saying pronouns are a _much_ better option in hindsight) and it was far more dismissed and mocked than this thread is now so as far as i'm concerned, even with a "no" to the sidebar option the idea as a whole has made progress.

also just as a sidenote when i say dismissed and mocked i mean by the community in general, not necessarily staff members. i can't really remember what comments were made by who.


----------



## SheepMareep

seliph said:


> my friend and i made a push for gender markers back in like 2016 (which i'm sure i can speak for both of us in saying pronouns are a _much_ better option in hindsight) and it was far more dismissed and mocked than this thread is now so as far as i'm concerned, even with a "no" to the sidebar option the idea as a whole has made progress.
> 
> also just as a sidenote when i say dismissed and mocked i mean by the community in general, not necessarily staff members. i can't really remember what comments were made by who.



Yea I actually was happy to see how many people are in support and how docile the disagreements are. I was honestly ready to pull out the big guns  society as a whole has made a LOT of progress in equality and being inclusive just in these past like 2 years. We are still far away from all of our goals in general however these small steps are still strides compared to say 50 years ago. It feels as though the world is in a healing period these past few years and I'm loving it.

&& yea, I can see mods staying out of these sort of conversations primarily to remain neutral and not risk losing people coming to the site. The silence from them aside from vris has been louder than anything imo.


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## Damniel

it seems we won't be getting a pronoun option in our sidebar unfortunately (i do this is reconsidered in the future), but i hope its at least added in the display you get when you hover over an avatar (don't know what it's called). things like our age and location can be displayed, so I don't see why pronoun option shouldn't be added too


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## SarahsNY

“I understand not everyone is aware of or open to the idea of trans/nb people existing.”

I’ve only browsed the thread a bit, but I just want to mention that’s a pretty judgmental and closed minded way of viewing people who are against this feature. I’m totally fine with trans/nb people, hell my sibling is a part of that group. I’m just not a fan of the feature because I find it ultimately uncessary and using it would honestly make me uncomfortable. I don’t really like advertising my gender, because I personally find it irrelevant to most conversation and don’t want it to be a factor. If someone wants to know me and ask, that’s fine! However, being a girl just isn’t relevent most of the time and I don’t want to advertise it.

You also need to consider the added pressure placed upon someone to “decide” what they are if there’s a very visible pronoun feature like this. If someone is questioning, they may just prefer to be seen as ambiguous online. While of course “undisclosed” may be an option, I can see people feeling like an outcast picking that option, and feeling as though it directly advertises their identity struggles.

There was a time I was very unsure if I was a girl or nb, and if I had to pick any option for this site I would had a bit of an existential crisis and it would have added to my struggle. I was already struggling with people irl, why can’t I just be a profile picture online? People don’t need to know my pronouns if it’s not relevant, I don’t want them to.

I know your heart is in the right place, but in my opinion there is a very good reason why mods are against this feature, and if it was implement myself and others would be uncomfortable, and not because of the transphobic, etc. reasons a lot of you seem to be assuming.


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## seliph

SarahsNY said:


> “I understand not everyone is aware of or open to the idea of trans/nb people existing.”
> 
> I’ve only browsed the thread a bit, but I just want to mention that’s a pretty judgmental and closed minded way of viewing people who are against this feature. I’m totally fine with trans/nb people, hell my sibling is a part of that group. I’m just not a fan of the feature because I find it ultimately uncessary and using it would honestly make me uncomfortable. I don’t really like advertising my gender, because I personally find it irrelevant to most conversation and don’t want it to be a factor. If someone wants to know me and ask, that’s fine! However, being a girl just isn’t relevent most of the time and I don’t want to advertise it.
> 
> You also need to consider the added pressure placed upon someone to “decide” what they are if there’s a very visible pronoun feature like this. If someone is questioning, they may just prefer to be seen as ambiguous online. While of course “undisclosed” may be an option, I can see people feeling like an outcast picking that option, and feeling as though it directly advertises their identity struggles.
> 
> There was a time I was very unsure if I was a girl or nb, and if I had to pick any option for this site I would had a bit of an existential crisis and it would have added to my struggle. I was already struggling with people irl, why can’t I just be a profile picture online? People don’t need to know my pronouns if it’s not relevant, I don’t want them to.
> 
> I know your heart is in the right place, but in my opinion there is a very good reason why mods are against this feature, and if it was implement myself and others would be uncomfortable, and not because of the transphobic, etc. reasons a lot of you seem to be assuming.


it's been mentioned the feature should be optional just like the current gender field.


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## SarahsNY

seliph said:


> it's been mentioned the feature should be optional just like the current gender field.


I believe you’ve missed my point. As stated when I discussed an “undisclosed” option, having a specific field for it can pressure people heavily. Do I fill it out or not? Will I be weird if I don’t? Will I be weird if I do? There’s a lot that can go through someone’s head regarding this.

I’ve browsed the thread a bit more, and I think the current user title option we have is a great solution! If you feel your pronouns are necessary to display, you can! If they aren’t, just add a neat little joke or something. The title feature isn’t designated for anything, so it can be everything. People use it for so many reasons, so there’s no pressure to conform to a specific one.


Edit: Throughout this thread I’ve seen people claim this feature would make nobody uncomfortable, and that is simply untrue. As with a lot of discussions relating lgbt+ issues, blanket statements of any kind actively fight against some of those in the community you are trying to advocate for. And if anyone is wondering, I am a part of this community and have questioned my own identity and sexuality a lot, so I’m not completely uniformed or ignorant about these issues.


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## mayortiffany

I agree with the decision to not put pronouns into the sidebar, though I would support adding it onto user profiles if someone wishes to add that there. The user title and signature box are both places where people can specify that information if they wish.

If it were to be implemented in the future on the profile or otherwise, I would support making it hidable if people do not want to disclose that information for whatever reason. For privacy reasons for example, some people do not want to leave that much information about themselves online, and that should be respected.


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## Antonio

Wait, so you are uncomfortable by there even being an option to list the option even though it's optional and you don't have to but you may feel pressure too anyways.

It sounds more like a personal problem rather than a case against adding it because no one is forcing you to do anything. You are putting unnecessary pressure on yourself.

@SarahsNY


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## seliph

SarahsNY said:


> I believe you’ve missed my point. As stated when I discussed an “undisclosed” option, having a specific field for it can pressure people heavily. Do I fill it out or not? Will I be weird if I don’t? Will I be weird if I do? There’s a lot that can go through someone’s head regarding this.
> 
> I’ve browsed the thread a bit more, and I think the current user title option we have is a great solution! If you feel your pronouns are necessary to display, you can! If they aren’t, just add a neat little joke or something. The title feature isn’t designated for anything, so it can be everything. People use it for so many reasons, so there’s no pressure to conform to a specific one.
> 
> 
> Edit: Throughout this thread I’ve seen people claim this feature would make nobody uncomfortable, and that is simply untrue. As with a lot of discussions relating lgbt+ issues, blanket statements of any kind actively fight against some of those in the community you are trying to advocate for. And if anyone is wondering, I am a part of this community and have questioned my own identity and sexuality a lot, so I’m not completely uniformed or ignorant about these issues.



i understand where you're coming from but considering the gender field already exists i fail to see how a pronoun feature would make matters any different.


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## SarahsNY

seliph said:


> i understand where you're coming from but considering the gender field already exists i fail to see how a pronoun feature would make matters any different.


I didn't even know it existed, actually. I guess I think that says a lot, a tucked away feature like that is very different than something that is easily visible on all of your posts with your profile picture.

I guess I really have trouble understanding why many are advocating for a separate, title-like feature depicting gender when using the pre-existing title feature and that other gender option is available? In my opinion staff has already been more than accommodating.

Edit: I understand gender does not automatically equate to pronouns for some people, but my point still stands.


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## seliph

SarahsNY said:


> I didn't even know it existed, actually. I guess I think that says a lot, a tucked away feature like that is very different than something that is easily visible on all of your posts with your profile picture.
> 
> I guess I really have trouble understanding why many are advocating for a separate, title-like feature depicting gender when using the pre-existing title feature and that other gender option is available? In my opinion staff has already been more than accommodating.
> 
> Edit: I understand gender does not automatically equate to pronouns for some people, but my point still stands.



speaking from personal experience i'd like to be able to have a fun quirky usertitle without being barraged with "she" and "her" every time i show a shred of femininity, even during the time i had "male" selected.


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## Druidsleep

SheepMareep said:


> So in our profiles currently we have a "gender" option with male, female, other, and undisclosed options. That's all fine and dandy but I think it would be nice for the forum to include a "pronoun" section visible on our forum posts (under the avatar maybe?)
> 
> Including your pronouns not only allows people to know how to address you properly, but also makes the community more open to our trans and nb friends! Normalizing asking someone's pronouns and saying your own even if you are cis is important to creating an inclusive and understanding community.
> 
> Just wanted to put the idea out there! If this isnt the right area to post this please let me know
> 
> Edit: *INFORMATIONAL LINKS*
> 
> Helpful definitions regarding trans/nb/gender identity terms
> Short FAQ on pronoun usage!


Boi this is going in my bio, this is now a petition and I will not stop until it's implemented!

	Post automatically merged: May 16, 2020



Zura said:


> People ask and get corrected in the real world so not much different.
> 
> 
> 
> Is it really that big of a problemo? I honestly don't see the issue here. If someone misgenders you just correct them and move on.
> 
> Am I missing something?


People may get offended feel uncomfortable or just downright cut down and not respected


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## SarahsNY

Antonio said:


> Wait, so you are uncomfortable by there even being an option to list the option even though it's optional and you don't have to but you may feel pressure too anyways.
> 
> It sounds more like a personal problem rather than a case against adding it because no one is forcing you to do anything. You are putting unnecessary pressure on yourself.
> 
> @SarahsNY


If you want to say this is a personal problem, I could easily insinuate that someone’s need for this feature is also a personal problem, because I don’t have an issue with the lack of it being there. It’s a pretty flimsy argument.

And honestly, with people referring to each other by she/he/whatever without asking about pronouns, that can be easily avoided by just using “they”. Idk I guess I’ve never had much of a reason to use pronouns on this forum or others in general. I know you can’t control others, but hopefully this frame of mind will continue to catch on.

And as for the gender section as a whole, if I had any say I’d rather it just be removed. Adding a pronoun section on top of that just adds to the issue.


I think I’m done with this discussion for now, I still stand strongly behind what I’ve said, and the replies to my post seem to only confirm my thoughts. If you all really think this feature is necessary I can’t stop you, however I just wanted to throw my two cents in and explain how not everyone who is against this feature is transphobic, etc.
When fighting for inclusively, things can often come around full circle and become more exclusive then ever before, and I feel like this thread has done just that.

Anyway, with that in mind, thanks for the discussion. 

Edit: also just wanted to mention if this feature were implemented, make it like the gender selection and tuck it away. If someone needs to know your pronouns, they’re easy to find but not immediately obvious. People don’t always fill out that stuff anyway.


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## seliph

SarahsNY said:


> And honestly, with people referring to each other by she/he/whatever without asking about pronouns, that can be easily avoided by just using “they”. Idk I guess I’ve never had much of a reason to use pronouns on this forum or others in general.



you're correct but the issue is that not everyone does this, unfortunately it's unrealistic to expect everyone to know to start doing so.

as for the gender field being removed i wouldn't really care if it was either lol


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## Druidsleep

skylucario said:


> if this is implemented, i hope there will be an option to turn the field off/say ‘undisclosed’, as with the age field.
> 
> 
> i don’t want people to assume stuff about me based upon my preferred pronouns; would prefer that they get to know me first. i like leaving it ambiguous for that reason. if anyone is *really* curious, it’s in my bio. would just rather not have it front and center.


Me who doesn't know how to see someone's bio... also it's a nice coincidence seeing you here, me just scrolling down the comments and I'm like, hey I know u lol.


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## Antonio

SarahsNY said:


> If you want to say this is a personal problem, I could easily insinuate that someone’s need for this feature is also a personal problem, because I don’t have an issue with the lack of it being there. It’s a pretty flimsy argument.


You clearly hasn't read the entire thread. The point of adding pronouns is to prevent misgendering other users based on assumption. Yes, people can refer to them as "they" but not everyone will.

This isn't about personal problems as others have experienced misgendering on this forum while others may have misgendered people by mistake. *Not everyone wants to get rid of the current title in order to put pronouns there.*

	Post automatically merged: May 16, 2020



Druidsleep said:


> Me who doesn't know how to see someone's bio... also it's a nice coincidence seeing you here, me just scrolling down the comments and I'm like, hey I know u lol.


You can see it on their profile, on the about page if that helps.


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## Druidsleep

Antonio said:


> You clearly hasn't read the entire thread. The point of adding pronouns is to prevent misgendering other users based on assumption. Yes, people can refer to them as "they" but not everyone will.
> 
> This isn't about personal problems as others have experienced misgendering on this while others may have misgendered people by mistake. *Not everyone wants to get rid of the current title in order to put pronouns there.*


Can confirm I like being snooty Capricorn but with a user pic like mine showing nothing about my gender I get this a lot.


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## skylucario

Antonio said:


> You clearly hasn't read the entire thread. The point of adding pronouns is to prevent misgendering other users based on assumption. Yes, people can refer to them as "they" but not everyone will.
> 
> This isn't about personal problems as others have experienced misgendering on this forum while others may have misgendered people by mistake. *Not everyone wants to get rid of the current title in order to put pronouns there.*
> 
> Post automatically merged: May 16, 2020
> 
> 
> You can see it on their profile, on the about page if that helps.


i agree with you, but i sometimes feel like i’m one of the few people who doesn’t care about being misgendered lol. i hate being “clear” about it more because it just feels wrong. like gender isn’t that intrinsic to who i am as a person even though i could have let it become one of my greatest hangups y’know? and if i were to let it, that would be bad. (i’m trans)

	Post automatically merged: May 16, 2020



SarahsNY said:


> I believe you’ve missed my point. As stated when I discussed an “undisclosed” option, having a specific field for it can pressure people heavily. Do I fill it out or not? Will I be weird if I don’t? Will I be weird if I do? There’s a lot that can go through someone’s head regarding this.
> 
> I’ve browsed the thread a bit more, and I think the current user title option we have is a great solution! If you feel your pronouns are necessary to display, you can! If they aren’t, just add a neat little joke or something. The title feature isn’t designated for anything, so it can be everything. People use it for so many reasons, so there’s no pressure to conform to a specific one.
> 
> 
> Edit: Throughout this thread I’ve seen people claim this feature would make nobody uncomfortable, and that is simply untrue. As with a lot of discussions relating lgbt+ issues, blanket statements of any kind actively fight against some of those in the community you are trying to advocate for. And if anyone is wondering, I am a part of this community and have questioned my own identity and sexuality a lot, so I’m not completely uniformed or ignorant about these issues.


THIS.

	Post automatically merged: May 16, 2020



SarahsNY said:


> “I understand not everyone is aware of or open to the idea of trans/nb people existing.”
> 
> I’ve only browsed the thread a bit, but I just want to mention that’s a pretty judgmental and closed minded way of viewing people who are against this feature. I’m totally fine with trans/nb people, hell my sibling is a part of that group. I’m just not a fan of the feature because I find it ultimately uncessary and using it would honestly make me uncomfortable. I don’t really like advertising my gender, because I personally find it irrelevant to most conversation and don’t want it to be a factor. If someone wants to know me and ask, that’s fine! However, being a girl just isn’t relevent most of the time and I don’t want to advertise it.
> 
> You also need to consider the added pressure placed upon someone to “decide” what they are if there’s a very visible pronoun feature like this. If someone is questioning, they may just prefer to be seen as ambiguous online. While of course “undisclosed” may be an option, I can see people feeling like an outcast picking that option, and feeling as though it directly advertises their identity struggles.
> 
> There was a time I was very unsure if I was a girl or nb, and if I had to pick any option for this site I would had a bit of an existential crisis and it would have added to my struggle. I was already struggling with people irl, why can’t I just be a profile picture online? People don’t need to know my pronouns if it’s not relevant, I don’t want them to.
> 
> I know your heart is in the right place, but in my opinion there is a very good reason why mods are against this feature, and if it was implement myself and others would be uncomfortable, and not because of the transphobic, etc. reasons a lot of you seem to be assuming.


THIS TOO LOL i didn’t want to say it bc i was scared


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## Antonio

skylucario said:


> i agree w you but i sometimes feel like i’m one of the few people who doesn’t care about being misgendered lol. like gender isn’t that intrinsic to who i am as a person even though i could have let it become one of my greatest hangups y’know? (i’m trans)


That's understandable tbh, some people don't mind being misgendered and that's fine. 

I would like to mention my point was talking in the general sense, leaning towards how to refer to someone in a conversation.


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## skylucario

Antonio said:


> That's understandable tbh, some people don't mind being misgendered and that's fine.
> 
> I would like to mention my point was talking in the general sense, leaning towards how to refer to someone in a conversation.


nah i get what you were saying, just felt like using it to talk about myself for some reason lol


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## SheepMareep

Displaying your pronouns would be 100% optional and have the ability to be edited.
My comment regarding people being uncomfortable about trans/nb people existing does not apply to those that... do not feel this way. If you put that comment as an attack on you or a false statement because you have a sibling who is trans or nb but do not feel it is necessary then thats on you and I implore you to search any biases you have. (We all have them! It's an important step in implementing change to look back on your own views and biases to see how they affect your current outlook.)

I have agreed throughout the entirety of the thread that this would be OPTIONAL. No one HAS to use it just like there are many who do not change their title, bio, or add in their nintendo information. There are many who do not use the gender area in the bio section. No one would be pressured to as its... optional. No one has been saying that it would be mandatory or that anyone would be looked down on for NOT using the feature because some people may not want to disclose that info or they may not know their gender identity yet.

I can not speak on the trans/nb community since I am in fact cis, however everyone who i have come in contact with sans maybe 5 people find this to be important. I have done research for my senior capstone paper on the importance of inclusion of trans/nb individuals in society and it is much more preferred to have these options than not.  Which is not discrediting ANYONES feelings in this matter because not everyone feels the same way.

Its important to take into consideration many opinions and feelings about this topic (of those who it mainly affects) and decide what is the best course of action. Allowing the option for pronouns in the best option here as it does not limit the use of signatures or titles and does not force anyone to input the information.
Hiding the pronouns would 100% go against the point of having them as the point is to be able to see someone's pronouns while addressing them in the thread without having to navigate all over.

The proposed idea to have them next to age where you can hover (or click on mobile) over someone's name keeps them relatively out of the way but also easy to access.

Please do not be scared to express your feelings on this matter so that we can come up with the most optimal way to implement this feature c: I think the having pronouns in the hovered bio is the best solution to keep them out of the way and still easy to access. People who are affected by being misgendered are saved the stress and they feel more included. If you are not affected by being misgendered then that's fine, many people are however and I want to strive to help them. Being open irl is hard, the internet where we are essentially anonymous shouldn't be. Animal crossing has a large minor fanbase as well and it's important to let them know they can be open and safe here when they may not feel safe at home.


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## Chris

I had hoped when I responded to this thread earlier in the week that I could avoid making this post, because I really did not want to, but it appears it is necessary.

While we appreciate that this thread was made with good intentions, we feel that the voices of those it does not personally affect are the loudest – and their feelings contradict those of the people it will impact most.

TBT’s transgender and non-binary community does not stand united behind this. A vocal minority have expressed their wish for this feature, yes, but the community as a whole has not. Unfortunately, anytime members of that community have spoken they have been told how they feel is wrong. Other users are too afraid to post publicly in this thread, so have expressed their concerns privately, because they fear being accused of being transphobic when they are transgender/non-binary themselves.

This thread fosters a hostile, negative environment that fails to make the community it is supposed to be fighting for feel heard. Transgender and non-binary users have had their feelings undermined by the people who claim to be their allies. For this reason, we have made the decision to close this thread here.

We stand by our decision: we will not be making this a visible feature on posts. However, we will be adding a pronoun field to the ‘About’ page on profiles soon. It will be optional.

The beauty of the internet is anonymity. No one is entitled to know your personal information – whether that be your age, your gender, or where you come from. It can be volunteered, but it shouldn’t be expected. If someone has failed to make their gender clear then please use ‘they/them’. There may be a reason for it. They may just like to keep a low profile. Whatever their reason is it should be respected.


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