# Do you believe we should respect and have rights for insects and arachnids?



## Buttonsy (Jul 7, 2016)

I personally do. From my research, it appears that it's only been in the past few years that science has even been able to admit that dogs have feelings, something I think a lot of people have known for years, I don't think science is quite there that we can say for certain that insects and arachnids don't have feelings definitively, and until we actually know that, I personally want to try to respect them.


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## Red Cat (Jul 7, 2016)

I like to introduce mosquitoes to fly swatter. Does that count as being nice?


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## Draco (Jul 7, 2016)

Only good bug is Dead Bug'  -Quote from movie Starship trooper


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## Katattacc (Jul 7, 2016)

Idk I just don't like senselessly killing things, but if a troublesome bug invades my territory (my room) I will most likely kill it or throw it outside, depending on the insect.


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## Buttonsy (Jul 7, 2016)

Katattacc said:


> Idk I just don't like senselessly killing things, but if a troublesome bug invades my territory (my room) I will most likely kill it or throw it outside, depending on the insect.



I think it's okay to draw the line at bugs who are possibly carrying diseases or bugs who are severely impacting your quality of life since they are technically trespassing, but I see people who kill all bugs for fun or kill bugs that could easily be thrown outside instead.


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## Aquari (Jul 7, 2016)

they are bugs, their life spans are so much shorter, so having "rights" for them is a waste of time, but if its an important species like the bees that are going extinct then yea obviously we shouldnt go around killing all of them, but other than that they are just bugs and spending time talking about their "feelings" is a waste of time


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## Buttonsy (Jul 7, 2016)

Neikkocat06 said:


> they are bugs, their life spans are so much shorter, so having "rights" for them is a waste of time, but if its an important species like the bees that are going extinct then yea obviously we shouldnt go around killing all of them, but other than that they are just bugs and spending time talking about their "feelings" is a waste of time



I guess I don't quite understand how the length of their life is a measurement of how valid their feelings are? If they have feelings, they exist whether they exist for a week or 100 years. (And actually, there are quite a few bugs who can live between 10 and 50 years!)


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## Bowie (Jul 7, 2016)

Yes, absolutely. I honestly, really do.


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## Aquari (Jul 7, 2016)

Buttonsy said:


> I guess I don't quite understand how the length of their life is a measurement of how valid their feelings are? If they have feelings, they exist whether they exist for a week or 100 years. (And actually, there are quite a few bugs who can live between 10 and 50 years!)



and yet they are bugs and most of them dont matter


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## boujee (Jul 7, 2016)

Maybe


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## Draco (Jul 7, 2016)

lol bug rights are up to 30% this is getting good. I went to a dome one time filled with bugs butterfly and other bugs was kinda awesome.


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## Buttonsy (Jul 7, 2016)

Neikkocat06 said:


> and yet they are bugs and most of them dont matter



I'm guessing it's whether or not they are productive to our needs then, such as bees who make our food and whatnot, where as other species of bugs and arachnids usually work for their own needs? I guess then we just gotta agree to disagree, since I don't really believe that productivity = worth, nor do I think that just because they don't suit our needs doesn't mean they don't work to meet their own, which has it's own merit.


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## Elov (Jul 7, 2016)

If an insect invades my home I won't hesitate to kill it. Bugs can do whatever they want outside, I don't care. But my home is my territory.


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## Buttonsy (Jul 7, 2016)

Draco said:


> lol bug rights are up to 30% this is getting good. I went to a dome one time filled with bugs butterfly and other bugs was kinda awesome.



Oooh, going to those types of places is fascinating. Last time I went to a place like that, they let me carry a lot of really big insects, such as stick insects, preying mantis, and millipedes. (Not that a millipede is actually technically an insect, but things like insects haha)


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## Greninja (Jul 7, 2016)

no why should we there are trillions of them


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## Kaleidoscopes (Jul 7, 2016)

I believe we should respect but not give the same rights we give any other animal to insects and arachnids. I'm all for laws that protect endangered species of insects, and I believe that there should be laws prohibiting people from placing two incompatible insects or arachnids together in the same enclosure for amusement; but I think it would be ridiculous if someone was charged $1000 dollars each time they accidentally stepped on a cricket walking to and from work or if there was a police investigation each time someone killed and flushed a spider down the toilet in their own home.

However, I do believe it is shameful to go out of your way to kill something when you could have easily ignored it or released it outside; but I believe in some cases it is justified, such as using medicine to kill the fleas off your dog or pest control to keep your house from becoming over-infested with any dangerous or aggressive species of insects and arachnids (especially if you have people living in your house that are more prone to dying or falling incredibly ill from the bite or sting of a venomous insect like little children or the elderly) - or just other general pests like bed bugs and termites.


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## Soraru (Jul 7, 2016)

well i do to an extent. i understand how important insects are to the planet's ecosystem and food chain. like for bees for example. we would not be able to survive without bees. they're the ones who pollinate, flowers, fruit, vegetables, and wild plants and food for animals. right now were having an agricultural decline because so many of them are dying out because of human's pesticide/pollution.

insects can do jobs that human beings cant. or maybe humans can but it'll take technology and artificial creations to do the job. despite alot of people hating them because they're not all fuzzy and cute like puppies, we have to at least know how important they are.


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## Buttonsy (Jul 7, 2016)

Kaleidoscopes said:


> I believe we should respect but not give the same rights we give any other animal to insects and arachnids. I'm all for laws that protect endangered species of insects, and I believe that there should be laws prohibiting people from placing two incompatible insects or arachnids together in the same enclosure for amusement; but I think it would be ridiculous if someone was charged $1000 dollars each time they accidentally stepped on a cricket walking to and from work or if there was a police investigation each time someone killed and flushed a spider down the toilet in their own home.
> 
> However, I do believe it is shameful to go out of your way to kill something when you could have easily ignored it or released it outside; but I believe in some cases it is justified, such as using medicine to kill the fleas off your dog or pest control to keep your house from becoming over-infested with any dangerous or aggressive species of insects and arachnids (especially if you have people living in your house that are more prone to dying or falling incredibly ill from the bite or sting of a venomous insect like little children or the elderly) - or just other general pests like bed bugs and termites.



Yeah, there are definitely too many instances of accidentally hurting bugs just on account of them being small that I don't think the penalties should be quite the same, and getting rid of pests is really self-defense most of the time, but I think that if a bug or arachnid isn't hurting you, it's best to try to just put it outside instead of kill it.


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## epoch (Jul 7, 2016)

I guess I'm neutral about bugs having rights just as animals have rights.. because, on one hand, it's humane yet on the other hand, it isnt exactly practical. For one, we don't exactly know if insects have any emotion or feel anything at all. Do they feel pain the same way we feel pain? Also. If ever we violate any insect right whatsoever, it would be ridiculous to be fined for it.

_Basically_ and I mean like.. really basically; I believe one reason animals have rights is because we can see that they feel pain/emotions.


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## HungryForCereal (Jul 7, 2016)

lmao rights for insects? what a joke.


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## Fantasyrick (Jul 7, 2016)

I honestly don't care tbh if the bug is in my room,touches me,lands on my food it will die in 2.5 seconds


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## Draco (Jul 7, 2016)

O Snap Bug Rights almost up to 40%.  Some bugs ill kill on site Wolf Spider, Black Widow.


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## Llust (Jul 7, 2016)

not insects. their guts can be smeared over my fly swatter for all i care


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## Aquari (Jul 7, 2016)

to be completely honest spiders are the only ones that truly matter ;;;} (me being spider queen and all)


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## seliph (Jul 7, 2016)

Mosquitoes deserve death followed by a thousand years in hell


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## Bowie (Jul 7, 2016)

It could just be me, but I just feel like there are other, simpler ways of dealing with things like that. You don't have to kill in life. Sure, you probably do it unaware throughout the day, but if you're given the choice, why do it? I certainly don't. I just take them outside. To me, it doesn't matter whether they feel pain or how small they are. They're alive, and if I can help it, I'd like it to stay that way.


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## Kaleidoscopes (Jul 7, 2016)

Bowie said:


> It could just be me, but I just feel like there are other, simpler ways of dealing with things like that. You don't have to kill in life. Sure, you probably do it unaware throughout the day, but if you're given the choice, why do it? I certainly don't. I just take them outside. To me, it doesn't matter whether they feel pain or how small they are. They're alive, and if I can help it, I'd like it to stay that way.



I disagree to an extent. If my dog has fleas, I'm killing them. I don't care if they feel pain or not, I'm not going to let my dog get sucked on by parasites that can give her tapeworms if she happens to eat one. Heck, I'm not even sure if there is a method for repelling them without killing them... but even if there is, why would I repel them away from my home so they can go somewhere else and infect one of my neighbor's pets?


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## Isabella (Jul 7, 2016)

I feel like people should respect any living creature and just let it be. Unless it's attacking you or jumped on you or it could be poisonous.
I hated spiders in the past, they freaked me out. my view changed when I saw this shy spider that decided to live in the corner of my greenroom/plant area. It was huge but whenever it saw people it'd just hide in its little place. It patiently waited most of the days and nights for food. I looked into it and it was completely harmless so I wasn't afraid of it anymore for some reason. I'd observe it sometimes and it stopped hiding eventually, I guess it wasn't scared of me anymore I'd like to think lmao. And it was there for most of the fall until winter came around. Spiders are admirable, their webs are cool af too. If you leave them alone they're chill.
So yeah, just respect spiders and be happy that you don't disturb their food web. A lot of these guys keep away those pests people usually hate and get rid of.
idk about bug rights though and it'll probably only happen for endangered bugs?


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## Radda (Jul 7, 2016)

I used to collect a bunch of ladybugs (During Spring/summer) get a peanuts jar and fill it with leaves with a bunch of aphids on it, then I would pump water into it and swish it around. So yes, but no at the same time.Bugs are too fun to mess with.


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## tamagotchi (Jul 7, 2016)

a centipede crawled on me today all bugs that touch me will get obliterated from this point on

bees are ok though


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## #1 Senpai (Jul 7, 2016)

tbh if some sort of bug is on me, near me, in my room or house i will try and kill it in under 10 seconds. but with spiders, i'd try and bring them outside unless they are cellar spiders cos those ones...i just smack 'em with my big slipper. that being said though, i think insects that carry a disease which is harmful to humans shouldn't have 'respect' or 'rights' as they can do more damage to us flying and zooming across the skies than an insect that isn't harmful lol


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## Buttonsy (Jul 7, 2016)

epoch said:


> I guess I'm neutral about bugs having rights just as animals have rights.. because, on one hand, it's humane yet on the other hand, it isnt exactly practical. For one, we don't exactly know if insects have any emotion or feel anything at all. Do they feel pain the same way we feel pain? Also. If ever we violate any insect right whatsoever, it would be ridiculous to be fined for it.
> 
> _Basically_ and I mean like.. really basically; I believe one reason animals have rights is because we can see that they feel pain/emotions.



But I mean, that's what I'm saying, we don't really know, and should we really risk intentionally hurting creatures where we don't even know whether or not we could be causing them immense pain?

And I mean, even with animals, the scientific proving of the idea that animals have feelings is actually very recent, some people would argue that animals really don't have feelings.


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## focus (Jul 7, 2016)

so ur telling me we should give bugs, even as insignificant as a clover mite, rights and respect?


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## Fleshy (Jul 7, 2016)

I don't know what is really meant by "have rights" in this context but I don't think it'll ever happen anyway, if a bug is is someone's house, most people will kill it, I don't think that's good when there's other options but yknow. Insects don't and won't have rights, so it's down to individuals to respect them or not, and most won't. 

I respect bugs, I'll step over ants in the street, move snails of the middle of the street, take spiders/beetles that are in my house out, rather than squishing them, if I see a bee that looks like they're dying, I'll feed them some sugar water. (It's actually important to save bees since their declining populations is really bad news for us, but it's not really like anyone cares.)

Like Bowie said (and maybe others too, I haven't completely read through the thread) there's other ways to deal with bugs, if there's a spider in your house why is your first instinct "kill"? When you could scoop them up will a cup and put them outside? I guess I get that reaction when it comes to phobias, but if you can't deal with the bug get someone who can? I see mites and parasite bugs as different though, if someone has lice or their pets have fleas, they should be taken care of.


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## Danielkang2 (Jul 7, 2016)

I think simply you shouldn't kill an insect unless it's causing harm to you this includes mosquitoes cockroaches etc or if you are eating it. Killing it for fun, no way.


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## epoch (Jul 7, 2016)

Buttonsy said:


> But I mean, that's what I'm saying, we don't really know, and should we really risk intentionally hurting creatures where we don't even know whether or not we could be causing them immense pain?
> 
> And I mean, even with animals, the scientific proving of the idea that animals have feelings is actually very recent, some people would argue that animals really don't have feelings.



I recently read that fruit flies might have feelings .-. 

@focus Technically the reason why we give rights is because we are conscious creatures.. so really, we're not required to give rights but because we are human, we do anyway. 
Though I do agree with you, but if there exists a much larger creature than us (let's say, a giant), do you think they'll give any regard to tiny, insignificant smaller beings?

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Danielkang2 said:


> I think simply you shouldn't kill an insect unless it's causing harm to you this includes mosquitoes cockroaches etc or if you are eating it. Killing it for fun, no way.


I kill roaches in my house to prevent them from multiplying..


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## moonford (Jul 7, 2016)

Neikkocat06 said:


> and yet they are bugs and most of them dont matter



They don't matter to *you*, stop speaking for everyone else.


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## visibleghost (Jul 7, 2016)

eh i dont think it's ok to, like, torture ants and stuff but i donmt really think laws about it is ?? super necessary ?? lmao idk


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## moonford (Jul 7, 2016)

I think they should get a few rights like us.

• Right to life
• Freedom from torture
• Right to liberty & security

I find it unfair how we kill innocent animals everyday, it sucks, honestly think about it, if you were an insect or arachnid of some kind, would you like to be squished to death or tortured?


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## Fleshy (Jul 7, 2016)

Whiteflamingo said:


> I think they should get a few rights like us.
> 
> • Right to life
> • Freedom from torture
> ...



I understand what you're saying, and obviously I don't agree with anyone being harmed (including insects). However, those laws are just not feasible at all, the police/animal welfare wouldn't care enough to actually put the laws into place, and charging someone everytime they squish a fly would be obscene (because of how often it happens) a whole new team of "insect welfare" would have to be introduced and would cost millions, pretty much nobody would be for this, laws like this wouldn't work.

I think it's completely down to individual people to not kill, especially for no reason (if the insect poses you no immediate harm and there are other ways of dealing with said insect). I care about insects and will definitely not kill them, but most people don't think thay way and most probably won't change their views as they simply don't value insects. I think it's one thing to squish a fly in your home (I wouldn't) and to purposely capture and tourture insects that are outside, the latter is a little 'scary' to me.


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## Hopeless Opus (Jul 7, 2016)

as long as cockroaches and wasps aren't being protected, i'm cool with it.


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## moonford (Jul 7, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> I understand what you're saying, and obviously I don't agree with anyone being harmed (including insects). However, those laws are just not feasible at all, the police/animal welfare wouldn't care enough to actually put the laws into place, and charging someone everytime they squish a fly would be obscene (because of how often it happens) a whole new team of "insect welfare" would have to be introduced and would cost millions, pretty much nobody would be for this, laws like this wouldn't work.
> 
> I think it's completely down to individual people to not kill, especially for no reason (if the insect poses you no immediate harm and there are other ways of dealing with said insect). I care about insects and will definitely not kill them, but most people don't think thay way and most probably won't change their views as they simply don't value insects. I think it's one thing to squish a fly in your home (I wouldn't) and to purposely capture and tourture insects that are outside, the latter is a little 'scary' to me.



I can only dream though. c;
Thank you for not biting my head off and bringing up some valid points, the points you made in the first paragraph I already thought of when I was making my statement and I understand that but I just really think its unfair, I'm just going to leave it at that. c:


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## Soda Fox (Jul 7, 2016)

I respect bugs and will remove them from my home alive if I can catch them, and don't bother them if they're not really bothering me.  But I don't think there needs to be laws protecting insects though, at least not until they become endangered just like any other creature.


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## piichinu (Jul 7, 2016)

no? theres a ****ton of insects who cares lol


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## moonford (Jul 7, 2016)

shiida said:


> no? theres a ****ton of insects who cares lol



And there's a ****ton of Humans too lol.
Edit: I care. c;


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## Miii (Jul 7, 2016)

I'm nice to most bugs and if I can catch it and put it back outside, I'll do that. I'll even avoid killing honeybees because they pollinate things and spiders because they're easy to catch and they eat other bugs. Wasps, however, are another story. If they're anywhere in my house I don't risk getting stung, or having my cats try to eat it.


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## Gregriii (Jul 7, 2016)

ahahhaahah speciesism 

you will be sad if a random old dog dies but you will be happy if a bee dies even though bees do  important things that helps us and the world rather than barking and playing with balls


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## ams (Jul 7, 2016)

I try to be nice to all living creatures with the exception of the ones that try to suck blood out of me.


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## radical6 (Jul 7, 2016)

no theyre icky


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## Redlatios (Jul 7, 2016)

Ive worked with insects, arachnids and myriapods (centipedes) over the last 3 years. They do deserve respect, but when you enter the "rights" area theres a big difference on invertebrates and regular animals, wich is the reproduction strategy. Sure, there should be protection to endemic species of invertebrates, but if your house becomes invaded with insects of course you are getting an exterminator to take care of it. They have much much bigger reproduction rates than vertebrates (and a much shorter life cycle in most insects)


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## Tensu (Jul 7, 2016)

Well I leave bugs alone if they don't mess with me, but if they consistently annoy me I'll kill them. I feel it's a waste of time to discuss the "feelings" of bugs. They outnumber us humans like a million to one. And bugs like mayflies live only one day. So I don't find it an issue if you kill it a few hours early. They deserve respect but not "rights".


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## Gregriii (Jul 7, 2016)

Azure said:


> Well I leave bugs alone if they don't mess with me, but if they consistently annoy me I'll kill them. I feel it's a waste of time to discuss the "feelings" of bugs. They outnumber us humans like a million to one. And bugs like mayflies live only one day. So I don't find it an issue if you kill it a few hours early. They deserve respect but not "rights".


Well then euthanasia shouldnt be a matter of discussion too


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## Buttonsy (Jul 7, 2016)

Azure said:


> Well I leave bugs alone if they don't mess with me, but if they consistently annoy me I'll kill them. I feel it's a waste of time to discuss the "feelings" of bugs. They outnumber us humans like a million to one. And bugs like mayflies live only one day. So I don't find it an issue if you kill it a few hours early. They deserve respect but not "rights".



I guess I don't get exactly why it's a waste of time to discuss their feelings. If they have feelings, then they are real, whether or not they have a large population or a short life span (although some bugs actually have incredibly long life spans, like 10 - 50 years)


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## Jared:3 (Jul 7, 2016)

I don't to an extent, bugs like cockroaches, ants, flies, they don't need rights, they're pathetic IMO, and really I hate only those bugs, but some bugs like bees we need them, so I'm against most bugs, but bees don't bother me, and if I see a bee I'll simply open my door, but If I see a fly or mosquito I'll kill it


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## Fleshy (Jul 7, 2016)

Buttonsy said:


> I guess I don't get exactly why it's a waste of time to discuss their feelings. If they have feelings, then they are real, whether or not they have a large population or a short life span (although some bugs actually have incredibly long life spans, like 10 - 50 years)



I agree, technically most insects don't have feelings though, but I see that as irrelevant, just because they don't have feelings doesn't make it okay to kill them imo


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## Gregriii (Jul 7, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> I agree, technically most insects don't have feelings though, but I see that as irrelevant, just because they don't have feelings doesn't make it okay to kill them imo



well we kill plants and plants dont have feelings


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## ZetaFunction (Jul 7, 2016)

Yes, but honestly there's a fine line between catching that spider and putting it outside in the timber versus having a bug crawl on me and meeting its doom.  All living things should be respected but if there's a bug crawling on me, irritating me, stinging me, or just being generally annoying and it's too hard to carry it out (especially if it's a small one or if it's going to come back or others will come back) then I'll just smash and trash it.


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## Jared:3 (Jul 7, 2016)

Gregriii said:


> well we kill plants and plants dont have feelings



This is true, we kill many things that don't have feelings, so I don't see his point lol

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I can break a rock and it has no feelings


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## Fleshy (Jul 7, 2016)

Gregriii said:


> well we kill plants and plants dont have feelings



The way I see it is that we kill plants for a reason (food, overgrown, etc.) I'm fine with eating plants, despite the fact that it's technically a dead living thing as the other option would be to eat animals and animal products, so it's less harmful in the end. If someone was to just go around chopping random trees down because they "don't like them" or because "there's loads of them and they don't have feelings so ?\_(ツ)_/?" I would personally find that morally wrong too

Also, insects have a brain and nervous system, plants do not.



Jared:3 said:


> This is true, we kill many things that don't have feelings, so I don't see his point lol
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> I can break a rock and it has no feelings



My point is that in my opinion, feelings =/= worth.

Rocks are not alive. Minerals are not living things.


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## Tensu (Jul 7, 2016)

Never mind


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## Jared:3 (Jul 7, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> The way I see it is that we kill plants for a reason (food, overgrown, etc.) I'm fine with eating plants, despite the fact that it's technically a dead living thing as the other option would be to eat animals and animal products, so it's less harmful in the end. If someone was to just go around chopping random trees down because they "don't like them" or because "there's loads of them and they don't have feelings so ?\_(ツ)_/?" I would personally find that morally wrong too
> 
> Also, insects have a brain and nervous system, plants do not.
> 
> ...


Ok but we need plants to live, there are plenty of other options to have a meal than grass? And it doesn't matter if an insect has a brain or not, plants are much more important than bugs


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## Gregriii (Jul 7, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> Ok but we need plants to live, there are plenty of other options to have a meal than grass? And it doesn't matter if an insect has a brain or not, plants are much more important than bugs



not really??

Like literally the only things we can consume are either plants or animals or food that comes from them such as milk or honey

so at the end to live we need to kill

...sad


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## Jared:3 (Jul 7, 2016)

Gregriii said:


> not really??
> 
> Like literally the only things we can consume are either plants or animals or food that comes from them such as milk or honey
> 
> ...


Yes, but how is eating honey from a bee killing it? I'm just saying eating grass wouldn't be an option for me, it helps us, the more we kill it we kill ourselves because microorganisms keep us alive

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Actually I think I meant trees so I might be wrong ~.~

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And many animals eat grass to live, in which we kill so we can live, so yes grass is very important as we humans need protein


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## Fleshy (Jul 7, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> Ok but we need plants to live, there are plenty of other options to have a meal than grass? And it doesn't matter if an insect has a brain or not, plants are much more important than bugs



I don't really completely understand what you're saying here but yes, we need plants to live, especially trees but there's a massive difference between growing plants for food and randomly chopping down trees for no reason. Plant agriculture (as a whole, because there is problems) is much less harmful than animal agriculture, and what I mean by that is that you're not always "killing" plants to get your food, plus the food used to feed livestock animals could practically feed everyone in the world, so if you're saying that's a better option than eating plants, I think you're wrong as that actually "kills" more plants. I don't know what you mean by the grass part?

It matters to me personally if they have a brain or not, as killing something with a brain and nervous system is morally wrong to me. So now you can kill things based on their importance? If that was the case I would have been killed long ago. I'm not denying that plants are important and I never did?

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Jared:3 said:


> And many animals eat grass to live, in which we kill so we can live, so yes grass is very important as we humans need protein



It's not necessary to kill animals for us to live?


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## Jared:3 (Jul 7, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> I don't really completely understand what you're saying here but yes, we need plants to live, especially trees but there's a massive difference between growing plants for food and randomly chopping down trees for no reason. Plant agriculture (as a whole, because there is problems) is much less harmful than animal agriculture, and what I mean by that is that you're not always "killing" plants to get your food, plus the food used to feed livestock animals could practically feed everyone in the world, so if you're saying that's a better option than eating plants, I think you're wrong as that actually "kills" more plants. I don't know what you mean by the grass part?
> 
> It matters to me personally if they have a brain or not, as killing something with a brain and nervous system is morally wrong to me. So now you can kill things based on their importance? If that was the case I would have been killed long ago. I'm not denying that plants are important and I never did?


Ok I actually mistakened grass for trees, so I mean trees, but humans don't really do anything they don't balance the food chain or do really anything IMO we shouldn't really be here as we take up space and just destroy animal homes, I never said you were denying plants were important did I say that?

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FleshyBro said:


> I don't really completely understand what you're saying here but yes, we need plants to live, especially trees but there's a massive difference between growing plants for food and randomly chopping down trees for no reason. Plant agriculture (as a whole, because there is problems) is much less harmful than animal agriculture, and what I mean by that is that you're not always "killing" plants to get your food, plus the food used to feed livestock animals could practically feed everyone in the world, so if you're saying that's a better option than eating plants, I think you're wrong as that actually "kills" more plants. I don't know what you mean by the grass part?
> 
> It matters to me personally if they have a brain or not, as killing something with a brain and nervous system is morally wrong to me. So now you can kill things based on their importance? If that was the case I would have been killed long ago. I'm not denying that plants are important and I never did?
> 
> ...


Yes it's where do we get meat from? If everyone was feeding on grass I wouldn't see one single fat person


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## Fleshy (Jul 7, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> Ok I actually mistakened grass for trees, so I mean trees, but humans don't really do anything they don't balance the food chain or do really anything IMO we shouldn't really be here as we take up space and just destroy animal homes, I never said you were denying plants were important did I say that?
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



Okay, that makes more sense then. No you didn't say that, but I just thought you implied it by mentioning it in reply to me.

There's more food than just meat and grass? Humans don't eat grass? Humans don't need to eat meat to survive, which is what you implied when you said "which we kill so we can live" but we don't have to, I don't eat meat or dairy products, but I also don't eat grass. Anyway I guess this is kind of off topic as it's not abut insects,


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 7, 2016)

Really tbh everything we eat essentially comes from animals we kill, we cannot live on fruits and grass, as we don't get enough energy from them, and we need meat in our diets, that's how it has always been, and it will stay that way


----------



## Gregriii (Jul 7, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> Okay, that makes more sense then. No you didn't say that, but I just thought you implied it by mentioning it in reply to me.
> 
> There's more food than just meat and grass? Humans don't eat grass? Humans don't need to eat meat to survive, which is what you implied when you said "which we kill so we can live" but we don't have to, I don't eat meat or dairy products, but I also don't eat grass. Anyway I guess this is kind of off topic as it's not abut insects,



I think he meant plants in general when saying grass


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 7, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> Okay, that makes more sense then. No you didn't say that, but I just thought you implied it by mentioning it in reply to me.
> 
> There's more food than just meat and grass? Humans don't eat grass? Humans don't need to eat meat to survive, which is what you implied when you said "which we kill so we can live" but we don't have to, I don't eat meat or dairy products, but I also don't eat grass. Anyway I guess this is kind of off topic as it's not abut insects,



Yeah sorry I understand your point, but we would be much skinnier, as much of the foods we eat comes from meat and we need it to stay I wouldn't say healthy but healthier

- - - Post Merge - - -



Gregriii said:


> I think he meant plants in general when saying grass



This is true I meant all plants not just grass


----------



## Fleshy (Jul 7, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> Really tbh everything we eat essentially comes from animals we kill, we cannot live on fruits and grass, as we don't get enough energy from them, and we need meat in our diets, that's how it has always been, and it will stay that way



This is not true? You can live without animal products. If not I, and many other people, would be dead. I haven't had meat in my diet for 13 years, and I'm completely healthy. It is possible to get enough energy without eating animals or animal products, vegans don't only eat grass and fruits, there's actually so much we can eat lmao and also i'm not "skinny". There's plenty vegans who are not thin, not all fat comes from animals..


----------



## oath2order (Jul 7, 2016)

epoch said:


> I recently read that fruit flies might have feelings .-.











Whiteflamingo said:


> I think they should get a few rights like us.
> 
> • Right to life
> • Freedom from torture
> • Right to liberty & security



How the hell do you enforce right to security and liberty lmao what you trap a fly in a jar what the hell is it going to do, press charges?



Whiteflamingo said:


> And there's a ****ton of Humans too lol.
> Edit: I care. c;



Lol mate the ratio of insects to humans in 200 million to one, the insect population, sans bees, is fine.



Gregriii said:


> ahahhaahah speciesism
> 
> you will be sad if a random old dog dies but you will be happy if a bee dies even though bees do  important things that helps us and the world rather than barking and playing with balls



Wow way to ignore all the good that dogs do.

Also, I'm fairly certain most the bees that people are happy about dying are not the honeybees we need.



Gregriii said:


> well we kill plants and plants dont have feelings



you don't know that !!1111


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 7, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> This is not true? You can live without animal products. If not I, and many other people, would be dead. I haven't had meat in my diet for 13 years, and I'm completely healthy. It is possible to get enough energy without eating animals or animal products, vegans don't only eat grass and fruits, there's actually so much we can eat lmao



Actually I meant all plants not literally grass, and I'm not saying you wouldn't be healthy but it certainly is a benefit to us, but you need lots of fruit and vegetables to make a full meal


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## oath2order (Jul 7, 2016)

For real though, this is a bunch of first-world, white person nonsense. "Do insects have feelings" Like who cares if insects have feelings, we can't even treat people who are slightly darker than us like people why should we care about whether or not some insect has feelings.


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 7, 2016)

oath2order said:


> For real though, this is a bunch of first-world, white person nonsense. "Do insects have feelings" Like who cares if insects have feelings, we can't even treat people who are slightly darker than us like people why should we care about whether or not some insect has feelings.


I'm totally agreeing with you but people insist it's important


----------



## boujee (Jul 7, 2016)

Wow
Never knew a topic about bugs can cause such debate. I mean any other topic we create on here ends up causing a debate but about bugs? Icing on the cake.

I heard of people saying not to kill spiders for they kill other insects to keep from overpopulating your house. I don't kill them for they're helping me and the situation can be vice Versa(bugs for spiders). Does the human role of killing insects also apply for spiders or any other insect that kills other insects? Even if they have "feelings" do they consider the life of the other insect? Same can apply to mammals that kill other animals, etc. I'm pretty sure the "life over life" is subtly applied here.

Yes bugs can be beneficial to this planet, same as harmful(carrying diseases, etc)
Humans can be beneficial but also harmful.
Same goes with animals coexisting a harmful/beneficial side.

I know that everyone here likes being progressive and sharing point of views and what not but you really have to be honest when it comes to topics like these. Saving a bug in plane site, sure. Those ants that you step on, not without thought because you wouldn't know that they're scattering around unless your face is glued on the ground. You can't really try to pinpoint a woo-sai moment when you only care about it in the moment and not entirely.


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## moonford (Jul 7, 2016)

oath2order said:


> For real though, this is a bunch of first-world, white person nonsense. "Do insects have feelings" Like who cares if insects have feelings, we can't even treat people who are slightly darker than us like people why should we care about whether or not some insect has feelings.



"White person nonsense"


----------



## oath2order (Jul 7, 2016)

Whiteflamingo said:


> "White person nonsense"



It illustrates my point that we can't treat slightly darker people as people.


----------



## Fleshy (Jul 7, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> I'm totally agreeing with you but people insist it's important



I don't actually think many people do think it's important, I don't really, specially considering the state of the world in other aspects, as oath mentioned, but it's a discussion nonetheless. People discuss and care about non important stuff all the time

- - - Post Merge - - -



Whiteflamingo said:


> "White person nonsense"



true though, it is


----------



## moonford (Jul 7, 2016)

oath2order said:


> It illustrates my point that we can't treat slightly darker people as people.



Why are you bringing race into this?
This is what I care about "For real though, this is a bunch of first-world, white person nonsense. "Do insects have feelings" Like who cares if insects have feelings" Not all white people are a like.


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## boujee (Jul 7, 2016)

I think this will be good time to post this:


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## Licorice (Jul 7, 2016)

If anyone kills a jumping spider then they should feel really ashamed because they are sweethearts and very helpful. They don't make messy ugly webs. They won't bite you unless they are threatened. (seriously i've had them crawl all over my body and face and never have they bitten me) They will kill other spiders that you probably don't want in your homes, they also will eat roaches, etc... They're also SUPER ADORABLE. Definitely my second favorite "animal" in the universe.

They're also the smartest species of spider and also the largest family of spiders.


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 7, 2016)

Whiteflamingo said:


> Why are you bringing race into this?
> This is what I care about "For real though, this is a bunch of first-world, white person nonsense. "Do insects have feelings" Like who cares if insects have feelings" Not all white people are a like.



Ok but he's comparing how there are other issues besides worrying about how Insects have feelings or not


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## tobi! (Jul 7, 2016)

save the bees


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## moonford (Jul 7, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> Ok but he's comparing how there are other issues besides worrying about how Insects have feelings or not



People have different priorities.


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## Jared:3 (Jul 7, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> I don't actually think many people do think it's important, I don't really, specially considering the state of the world in other aspects, as oath mentioned, but it's a discussion nonetheless. People discuss and care about non important stuff all the time
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



I know that I'm not disagreeing with you at all


----------



## oath2order (Jul 7, 2016)

Whiteflamingo said:


> People have different priorities.



Are you trying to tell me you care more about the rights of insects than the equal rights of other races of our own species?


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 7, 2016)

Whiteflamingo said:


> People have different priorities.



Ok but I'm not sure why race is a problem with mentioning? It's a serious problem, nobody else but you had a problem with it


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## Jake (Jul 7, 2016)

Please remember to try stay on topic, thanks.


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## Fleshy (Jul 7, 2016)

Whiteflamingo said:


> People have different priorities.



Wow, I understand that you think this is an important topic but do you seriously priortise the theoretical feelings of insects over racism?

/oops, off topic i guess.


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## Jared:3 (Jul 7, 2016)

Just saying who would care more about that over racism? Pretty sad


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## Shinx (Jul 7, 2016)

i personally think it'd be kinda hard, but I don't feel right killing bugs or anything when they wonder in my home. I usually ask someone else to do it. it just grosses me out killing anything, haha. I do feel like they deserve some rights (except the poisonous ones), but it'd be impossible due to their mostly small size and sheer numbers. like they'd probably overpopulate in an instant if we somehow did.


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## Sig (Jul 7, 2016)

hell nah kill them all i hate incests


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## Tensu (Jul 7, 2016)

oath2order said:


> For real though, this is a bunch of first-world, white person nonsense. "Do insects have feelings" Like who cares if insects have feelings, we can't even treat people who are slightly darker than us like people why should we care about whether or not some insect has feelings.



I agree with this 100%. There are really big problems in the world, why make a big stupid stink about insects feelings? They outnumber us 20 million to one. I really am not surprised that people are really complaining about THIS above all things.


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## piichinu (Jul 7, 2016)

Whiteflamingo said:


> And there's a ****ton of Humans too lol.
> Edit: I care. c;



its like u think i care that u care
also no there arent relative to insects.............lol............


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## Gregriii (Jul 7, 2016)

shiida said:


> its like u think i care that u care
> also no there arent relative to insects.............lol............



well u asked who cares and he said he does


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## Licorice (Jul 7, 2016)

sakura miku said:


> hell nah kill them all i hate incests



"i hate incests" LOL i'm sorry but i am dead now


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## piichinu (Jul 7, 2016)

Gregriii said:


> well u asked who cares and he said he does



maybe some people dont understand what a rhetorical question is


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## Jared:3 (Jul 7, 2016)

This thread is hilarious, I luagh at this when I see it


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## TheGreatBrain (Jul 7, 2016)

I keep imagining a house full of cockroaches. Should you kill them or let them take over your house?  There's no way you can place them all outside. Lol. It would be ridiculous if there was a law not to kill them.  I watched a show called infested awhile back. This families home was infested with brown recluse. They had to evacuate.  ( The dad wouldn't kill them because he felt that bugs should have rights too. Lol.  Just Kidding).


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## vel (Jul 7, 2016)

bugs don't have rights. i won't let one stay in my house bc we buddy buddy, we just ain't. i won't let a fly or a bee land in my food because that's stupid. but i won't kill one without a reason, or purposely. i don't believe in rights, but i just don't like killing things.


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## Gregriii (Jul 7, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> This thread is hilarious, I luagh at this when I see it



pretty much every thread of brewsters in a nutshell


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## Jared:3 (Jul 7, 2016)

Gregriii said:


> pretty much every thread of brewsters in a nutshell



Ikr no one can seem to keep anything civil


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## Greninja (Jul 7, 2016)

why do bugs need rights in the first place? I really don't see a reason for them too need rights...


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## Aleigh (Jul 7, 2016)

Animals such as dogs are different, they are more mentally developed and actually have true feelings like to love. Bugs don't, they don't have the mental capability. I'm not saying they don't feel pain, I'm sure they do, but they cannot get "close" enough to something. They are only there to live, reproduce, die.

That and I have very severe arachnophobia and think all spiders, ticks, mites, scorpions, and other spawns of hell should just disappear into oblivion. Even crabs are scary af.

Fun fact: Daddy long-legs are not spiders.
"Most Americans who spend time outdoors use the term for long-legged harvestmen (below, right), which are ground-dwelling outdoor creatures. Harvestmen are arachnids, but they are not spiders -- in the same way that butterflies are insects, but they are not beetles. Harvestmen have one body section (spiders have two), two eyes on a little bump (most spiders have eight), a segmented abdomen (unsegmented in spiders), no silk, no venom, a totally different respiratory system, and many other differences; not all have long legs."
But they are still freaKING HELL SPAWNS


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## ZetaFunction (Jul 8, 2016)

I read back and I'm legit wondering how tf a thread on "bugs' rights" turned into racism (and why did a thread on "bugs rights" even get created LOL #firstworldproblems)
maybe it wouldn't be such a big issue though if people didn't link or connect literally everything to it...... just saying :/



FleshyBro said:


> This is not true? You can live without animal products. If not I, and many other people, would be dead. I haven't had meat in my diet for 13 years, and I'm completely healthy. It is possible to get enough energy without eating animals or animal products, vegans don't only eat grass and fruits, there's actually so much we can eat lmao and also i'm not "skinny". There's plenty vegans who are not thin, not all fat comes from animals..



you have to take into consideration those who have blood sugar issues and literally have to eat meat every few hours or they get a sugar crash/sick like myself.  I've tried soy, beans, dairy, and tons of substitutes but it always ends up with me getting a sugar crash and having to go back to meats.  which goes back to the whole bugs' rights thing.... they deserve rights but we all live in a world that's one giant food chain.  even if you save that one cricket or fly, it doesn't mean that it won't get in your neighbor's house and get murdered in there.  and they'll always be eating other living things since bugs don't care about politics and giving every living thing a chance at life so much like most people, which is why I'm still on the fence about this.  it just really depends on the scenario on whether or not it deserves to live.


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## nintendofan85 (Jul 8, 2016)

While I don't hate bugs, and I can actually find spiders interesting sometimes, I don't really think we should give them rights in the way you describe, no.


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## FleuraBelle (Jul 8, 2016)

No way, I'm not going to let a fly buzzing around in my room stay that way. Its choice is either to get swatted by me or fly into another room.
I often feel bad when I kill a bug but I have a severe fear of literally every type of insect so I feel relieved when they are out of my way.


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## Danielkang2 (Jul 8, 2016)

Insects are in the same category as animals and should be treated as such. We should be wise in what we do to them and think if it makes sense. If we are going to use them either for sustenance or if they're causing harm we can kill them, if not don't. You shouldn't mindlessly kill them for pleasure. But the important thing is that the criteria of treatment should be same for insects and animals and imo I think the line should be drawn on if they're causing harm or if we'll use them.

- - - Post Merge - - -

It's so funny when you completely botch the value of animals and say they're nearly equal to humans and insects don't matter at all. Either humans are completely apart from animals and insects or we're all equal those are the only values that make sense.


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## KaydeeKrunk (Jul 8, 2016)

Bugs are really great, and even though I don't really know about "rights" but they definitely deserve respect and not for people to kill first and ask questions later. They are super neat if you learn about them, and I try to rehome spiders and other bugs to outside if I find them indoors, the only bugs I don't care for really are ants and gnats. They can go right to heck the lot of them.


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## Fleshy (Jul 8, 2016)

Lucanosa said:


> I read back and I'm legit wondering how tf a thread on "bugs' rights" turned into racism (and why did a thread on "bugs rights" even get created LOL #firstworldproblems)
> maybe it wouldn't be such a big issue though if people didn't link or connect literally everything to it...... just saying :/
> 
> 
> ...



I don't think people bringing up racism is a "big issue", racism itself is the issue?

I know, I understand that not everyone can be vegan, either due to health reasons or because they live in a country where they rely completley on meat. I understand that completely, I'm not some militant vegan standing here like "everyone has to go vegan!" because for one that's absurd, and two, I don't even care what other people do. I'm just saying that it is possible for most people to live completley healthily on a vegan diet, as Jared said you need meat in your diet, which, for most people, is untrue.

How is killing a fly anything to do with the food chain? Most people don't eat bugs so the food chain is irrelevant, it's nothing to do with food, it's about mindlessly killing bugs for no reason, and whether that's right or not


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## Danielkang2 (Jul 8, 2016)

The reason a thread like this even exists as some people think animals are as precious as humans like srsly? There's only two arguments one is all are on the same level or humans are apart from animals. You can't be like oh dogs have rights but not the snail on the street. Also respect and rights are different. Insects should be treated with respect to a certain extent but they don't have rights lmao.

- - - Post Merge - - -

This is why I said in order for insects to be treated equally with animals there should be a line drawn for both and I feel that you shouldn't kill it unless it is harming you or you're going to eat it. If there's any arguments to a topic that shouldn't have any feel free to tell me lol.


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## RainbowCherry (Jul 8, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> This thread is hilarious, I luagh at this when I see it



You were my favourite comedic relief.


I don't care whether they get rights or not. I wouldn't waste the time. I don't go around my house looking for bugs and beating the living crap out of them, I just don't think it'd do anything because of the lower. 

How would you even monitor these rights, anyway?


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## namiieco (Jul 8, 2016)

I does sound kind of stupid to have rights for insects etc.
its like having rights for leaves


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## boujee (Jul 8, 2016)

Utarara said:


> I does sound kind of stupid to have rights for insects etc.
> its like having rights for leaves




Lol this made me laugh 
1+ for you


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## moonford (Jul 8, 2016)

Never mind....


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## yamashta (Jul 11, 2016)

the voting results in the pole disgust me







many arachnids and insects are vital to the ecosystem and beneficial to humans and animals alike.

yes, there are many 'pest' species that are not beneficial/harmful to other creatures, but so many are harmless and/or good in some way it's ridiculous to even consider saying 'no' to a question like this.

There are thousands of different kinds/variations of insect, arachnid and true bug.  Many of them play important roles in the food chain and in our lives.

Lepidoptera, Anthophila, Vespidae. Major pollinators. Vespids seem mostly omnivorous leaning toward carnivorous and target a lot of pest species, which in turn is helping us given it's cutting back the population.

Arachnids do the same, given they're 'carnivorous' so to speak. ( Unlike vespids they do not masticate their food, but they consume other arachnids and bugs/insects, some even avian/reptile/etc. )

There are some species I'm sure the world would be entirely fine without, I will admit this.
That doesn't mean they all should cease to exist, and that none should have rights/value.

smh ignorant people raised in fear of bugs. the fact some people are afraid of butterflies baffles me and makes me genuinely angry.


----------



## Greninja (Jul 11, 2016)

yamashta said:


> the voting results in the pole disgust me
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Who said anything about killing all insects and arachnids?


----------



## Gregriii (Jul 11, 2016)

Greninja said:


> Who said anything about killing all insects and arachnids?



well most of the people in the thread


----------



## Fantasyrick (Jul 11, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> Ikr no one can seem to keep anything civil



Should I bring up that thread you made about cussing out a lady at a restaurant????


----------



## Buttonsy (Jul 11, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> The reason a thread like this even exists as some people think animals are as precious as humans like srsly? There's only two arguments one is all are on the same level or humans are apart from animals. You can't be like oh dogs have rights but not the snail on the street. Also respect and rights are different. Insects should be treated with respect to a certain extent but they don't have rights lmao.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> This is why I said in order for insects to be treated equally with animals there should be a line drawn for both and I feel that you shouldn't kill it unless it is harming you or you're going to eat it. If there's any arguments to a topic that shouldn't have any feel free to tell me lol.



Animals and humans are almost definitely not on the exact same level as humans, but type of sentience and level of sentience shouldn't be confused with worth.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Danielkang2 said:


> The reason a thread like this even exists as some people think animals are as precious as humans like srsly? There's only two arguments one is all are on the same level or humans are apart from animals. You can't be like oh dogs have rights but not the snail on the street. Also respect and rights are different. Insects should be treated with respect to a certain extent but they don't have rights lmao.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> This is why I said in order for insects to be treated equally with animals there should be a line drawn for both and I feel that you shouldn't kill it unless it is harming you or you're going to eat it. If there's any arguments to a topic that shouldn't have any feel free to tell me lol.



Animals and humans are almost definitely not on the exact same level as humans, but type of sentience and level of sentience shouldn't be confused with worth.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Aleigh said:


> Animals such as dogs are different, they are more mentally developed and actually have true feelings like to love. Bugs don't, they don't have the mental capability. I'm not saying they don't feel pain, I'm sure they do, but they cannot get "close" enough to something. They are only there to live, reproduce, die.



As I have said though, how do we actually know for sure that that's an accurate statement? It's been only VERY recently that science is even willing to admit that dogs have feelings, we may be very behind in proving the level of emotion that bugs and arachnids can experience.


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## Danielkang2 (Jul 11, 2016)

Um, I said nothing about sentience


----------



## Corrie (Jul 11, 2016)

I definitely do, unless it is trying to bite me. Then it is dead.


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## Noah2000 (Jul 11, 2016)

What is this like for real guys


----------



## Alienfish (Jul 11, 2016)

Lol, nope. Sure some bugs and crap can look nice but considering how they bite around and can be deadly not really.


----------



## Mr. Cat (Jul 11, 2016)

I have this theory that bugs feel like they live longer than they do because they're smaller and have a lot more to process. That would make time seem slower. I mean, I think every life is important. Everything is all about perception. But living isn't the most important thing in the world either. I choose not to kill things, but if somebody else wants to, I'm not going to stop them. It would, however, probably make me respect the person much less if they're doing it without reason.


----------



## Sig (Jul 11, 2016)

Lucanosa said:


> you have to take into consideration those who have blood sugar issues and literally have to eat meat every few hours or they get a sugar crash/sick like myself.  I've tried soy, beans, dairy, and tons of substitutes but it always ends up with me getting a sugar crash and having to go back to meats.



hey a type 1 diabetic here : meat actually has no glucose or anything thatd raise your sugar, youre just trying to do it because it tastes good lmao. get glucose tablets if you have low sugars often. i've been a vegetarian/vegan my whole life, by the way


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## nami26 (Jul 11, 2016)

Wow insects having rights? Incredible. Dead bugs are good bugs. Spiders are only good for killing flies.

Whats next??? Rights for Rocks????


----------



## Fleshy (Jul 11, 2016)

nami26 said:


> Whats next??? Rights for Rocks????



Yes obviously, because inanimate objects are completely comparable to living, breathing, things.


----------



## Tensu (Jul 11, 2016)

nami26 said:


> Wow insects having rights? Incredible. Dead bugs are good bugs. Spiders are only good for killing flies.
> 
> Whats next??? Rights for Rocks????



Hahahaha no.

I personally find this thread unrealistic, but it matters to some people.


----------



## yamashta (Jul 11, 2016)

Ceasing to exist is not the same thing as killing. It's an open-ended term. It could mean killing, somehow relocating, maybe even magically disappearing altogether.

- - - Post Merge - - -



sakura miku said:


> hey a type 1 diabetic here : meat actually has no glucose or anything thatd raise your sugar, youre just trying to do it because it tastes good lmao. get glucose tablets if you have low sugars often. i've been a vegetarian/vegan my whole life, by the way



And which one are you? Both are very different. Vegetarians will eat some animal products, and some vegetarians even push it and will eat fish.

Vegans cut out everything. Even inedible substances like silk and wool, because it originated from another creature.

Vegans are unnatural and morally challenged and live a very privileged lifestyle. They do not eat honey, despite it being helpful to a hive to harvest it. They do not eat eggs, even though they are unfertilized and contain no living creature inside. They do not wear silk because it's harvested from pupated moths that must be killed via boiling to properly remove the silk in one piece. They do not wear wool despite it being helpful to shear sheep, as they can become uncomfortable and overheated with too dense a coat.

Yet they'll eat the very foods of the animals they're 'saving', despite them taking their food source. They'll eat bizarre chemicals as long as it didn't originate from an animal.

Are you a vegetarian or a vegan? There's a difference.


----------



## Fleshy (Jul 12, 2016)

yamashta said:


> And which one are you? Both are very different. Vegetarians will eat some animal products, and some vegetarians even push it and will eat fish.
> 
> Vegans cut out everything. Even inedible substances like silk and wool, because it originated from another creature.
> 
> ...




How does not consuming animals or animal products make someone morally challenged, Not wanting to cause unnecessary harm to animals is now immoral? 

Can you also please explain how vegans live a privileged lifestyle? I understand that being able to choose the food you eat is a privilege, but it is one available to the majority of people in developed countries, at least. If you mean by wealth, it is not at all true, I am by no means 'privileged' based on wealth, my family is below the poverty line and I have been homeless in the past. Some of the cheapest foods available are vegan; beans, rices, pasta, bread, and so on. I understand not everyone can be vegan, and I do not at ll claim that it is something that everyone can be, I myself am vegan, but I don't expect everyone to be. I do not live a privileged lifestyle, no more so than anyone else in my position who is not vegan, simply being vegan does not mean that I live a privileged lifestyle, you seem to have a very skewed view on what veganism actually is. 

I can understand where you get the "unnatural" from, considering humans have been eating animals and their products for many, many years. However, I consider simply avoiding some foods for ethical reasons to be much more natural than the meat and dairy industries in recent years. Cows are often fed hormones, it is debated that the growth hormones fed to cows are having a negative impact on the humans consuming the beef, is that more natural than just avoiding eating meat and dairy? Never mind the conditions the majority of animals used for meat and dairy are kept in, is that natural? Yes eating meat and dairy products might have been "natural" many years ago, when animals would be consumed after death and weren't kept in conditions like they are now. I don't know about you, but I find this treatment of animals highly unnatural. 




Spoiler: is this natural? (maybe a little graphic)



//////
I do not think it is, and if not wanting to be associated with this makes me unnatural and morally challenged, well so be it.

Yes not all animal farming is like this, but a vast majority of it is.



Harvesting honey is helpful, could you please elaborate? The way commercial honey is farmed is actually really rather harmful to bee populations. Bees produce honey for a reason, and that reason isn't human consumption. I will agree that it is virtually harmless to bees to harvest a small portion of honey as they usually produce a little excess, however, that isn't how it is done. We do not take that little excess honey, we take it all, or the majority of their honey, how is that at all beneficial? Oh yeah, boiling pupated moths, so humane, so natural. 

Yes most sheep do need to be sheared but if we stopped breeding sheep specifically to harvest the wool then they wouldn't have such dense coats, and they wouldn't need to be sheared. Humans have bred sheep in a way that makes shearing necessary for our own greed. I do not wear wool because I do not want to support that. 

Eggs? Do you know anything at all about egg production? Yes they are non-fertilised and do not contain a living thing, but that does not at all make it humane, see above spoiler for photos of chickens in the egg industry. I could insert or link videos of how male chicks in the egg industry are routinely  ground up and gassed, but I'll refrain, it's really pretty easy to find said videos though. The culling of male chicks is not at all unusual either, Germany being the only country to ban "shredding" of male chicks. Is that not a little more "morally challenged" than being vegan? Also, eggs are literally chickens menstrual waste, what is wrong with not wanting to eat that? (Actually I'll go ahead and post this, since I'm morally challenged anyway.)

Vegans take animals food source? Honestly this "argument" is so extremely absurd, it literally makes me laugh. Do you have any idea the amount of food that is fed to livestock animals? I assume you don't, because If you did, you would know that the amount of food fed to animals could quite easily feed many, many people. "If all the grain currently fed to livestock in the United States were consumed directly by people, the number of people who could be fed would be nearly 800 million," It takes up to 16 pounds of grain to produce one pound of meat.  So technically, it is people who eat meat and dairy that are consuming the majority of the animals food source, not vegans. Meat eaters also eat the same "bizarre chemicals" that vegans eat, so that comment is rather odd? I'm also not vegan for health reasons, so I really don't care about the "bizarre chemicals" that I consume. You also seem rather quick to generalise all vegans. 


I understand that you are against veganism, and that's fine, do what you want to do. I don't have anything at all against people who aren't vegan and sorry for being the typical _Preachy Vegan_, but I really don't appreciate being called "unnatural" and "morally challenged" because I refrain from using or consuming animal products, specially when you seem rather uneducated on the matter.


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## SilkSpectre (Jul 12, 2016)

I don't think they are complex enough creatures to have feelings or that much worth. I'm all for being considerate for other living things ofc. Pests are destructive to humanity. Sorry but I feel nothing for anything carrying disease or lice infesting school children. 

I have a soft spot for spiders though. Tarantulas deserve much love.<3


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## Reindeer (Jul 12, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> Also, eggs are literally chickens menstrual waste, what is wrong with not wanting to eat that?


This is the third time I've seen you say this, and I seriously wonder how you're gullible enough to believe it. Birds don't have a menstrual cycle, that is something exclusive to primates and bats.


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## Fleshy (Jul 12, 2016)

Reindeer said:


> This is the third time I've seen you say this, and I seriously wonder how you're gullible enough to believe it. Birds don't have a menstrual cycle, that is something exclusive to primates and bats.



I am aware that hens do not have a menstrual cycle. In a human menstrual cycle, non fertilised eggs and internal lining are expelled, hens also expel non fertilised eggs. It isn't identical and isn't  "literally a chickens menstrual waste" as they don't menstrate, however it is similar and I find the comparison valid.

Non fertilised eggs from the ovaries are released. It's not the same and I do know that, I should have worded it better.


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## Lightspring (Jul 12, 2016)

The only reason why I think that bugs should have rights is because honeybees, for example, help the environment, like pollinating crops and flowers. Other than that, I don't care if a roach creeps up into my room, I'm grabbing a shoe and a napkin.


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## Sig (Jul 13, 2016)

yamashta said:


> And which one are you? Both are very different. Vegetarians will eat some animal products, and some vegetarians even push it and will eat fish.
> 
> Vegans cut out everything. Even inedible substances like silk and wool, because it originated from another creature.
> 
> ...



thanks for TOTALLY avoiding the whole point of my post, haha!!


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## Tensu (Jul 13, 2016)

I really don't see the problem with being vegan or vegetarian. I understand what they do and support them. No one should be criticized on what they eat. We should all respect each other. I'm not vegetarian or vegan, but I admire and support those who are.This thread is about bugs, and I don't really know why this has to spiral out of control xD


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## himeki (Jul 13, 2016)

yes omg???? They're animals too and they should get the same respect uwu I always rescue spiders


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## visibleghost (Jul 13, 2016)

is the discussion still abt bug rights or what is going on


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## oath2order (Jul 13, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> is the discussion still abt bug rights or what is going on



yes, it amazingly still is


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## visibleghost (Jul 13, 2016)

are ppl talking ant being vegan bc they think it is wrng to eat bugs or should i jjst try to read through the last 10 pages to understand what's going on..


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## Fleshy (Jul 13, 2016)

Azure said:


> I really don't see the problem with being vegan or vegetarian. I understand what they do and support them. No one should be criticized on what they eat. We should all respect each other. I'm not vegetarian or vegan, but I admire and support those who are.This thread is about bugs, and I don't really know why this has to spiral out of control xD



I agree, I don't care what other people choose to do, there's no reason to throw insults at people just because they choose to be vegan (or not), it's good to know not everyone hates vegans, lmao. I guess I helped it spiral out of control but calling people "unnatural and morally challenged" for no reason?


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## Liamslash (Jul 13, 2016)

You should let them outside if you find them in your house instead of killing them, but I don't give any more respect then that.


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## Fleshy (Jul 13, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> are ppl talking ant being vegan bc they think it is wrng to eat bugs or should i jjst try to read through the last 10 pages to understand what's going on..



I was speaking about veganism earlier as Jared said something along the lines of "humans are meant to kill animals" (i can't remember exactly) and that we need to do so to live, so I disagreed. I just checked back here yesterday and someone was calling vegans "unnatural and morally challanged". It's not anything to so with eating bugs or anything,


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## cornimer (Jul 13, 2016)

I think we should respect their lives, but I still kill on sight. Oops.


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## visibleghost (Jul 13, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> I was speaking about veganism earlier as Jared said something along the lines of "humans are meant to kill animals" (i can't remember exactly) and that we need to do so to live, so I disagreed. I just checked back here yesterday and someone was calling vegans "unnatural and morally challanged". It's not anything to so with eating bugs or anything,



oh okay i get that then. i mean, yeah, humans have been eatig meat for a long time but it doesn't mean that we should keep doing it, especially as we now know that a lot of bad things come w eating a lot of meat and the meat industry in general.

actually eating bugs seems to be one of the many possibilities for future, more environment friendy foods. 

but honestly i think ppl should respect bugs as in try to not kill them when there are other options, not torture them etc But laws against hurting bugs isn't a possible thing imo... lol..


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## RibbonFinale (Jul 13, 2016)

This thread is a train wreck.


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## Ghost Soda (Jul 13, 2016)

other, as in i'll respect bug rights when they respect my personal space.


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## Hunter x Hunter (Jul 14, 2016)

Bugs are an important since they keep nature in balance. I do respect them for that, however, I don't respect that they come into my house .


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## amanda1983 (Jul 18, 2016)

I voted "maybe, I need to think about it more". I don't think all insects should be treated with the same "right to life" mentality that mammals etc have (to most people who aren't in need of help and/or locking up). As there are many types that are pests or legitimately dangerous to people. But there does need to be a big cultural shift in how developed countries value insects and their place in the food chain and the environment.

I think a lot more can be done to educate people on the importance of various insects etc in the eco system. In my local area there has been a push to highlight how important bees are, and there are more broad campaigns to educate people on various native bugs as well as birds, fish, et al. Little by little we're making a difference.

As an early childhood educator I'm legally obliged to practice and teach sustainable practices to my children. This naturally should include treating all forms of life with respect, and I've worked at several centres that practice humane pest control (for everything short of actual pest infestations, which obviously must be treated with the most fast and effective method possible).

As for the argument I saw raised elsewhere in this thread that claims that because insects outnumber humans so significantly, so there's no need to worry - or care - about their lives... I was taught that if there's a choice between harming something or not harming, person, animal (including insects), plant - then first do no harm. Eating plant matter or animals (or products thereof) for survival is one thing. Killing a dangerous animal threatening survival or posing risk of illness etc is necessary. But killing animals for fun? Insects for fun? Yeah, nah. Not for me. I'll step around any bugs I see on the ground, though I'm not suggesting stepping on bugs is without a care makes someone a terrible person!

Interesting discussion, random detours aside.


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