# Unisex bathrooms



## Gregriii (May 21, 2016)

Soo what do you think about them? Do you see them as a good thing or a bad one? Why? I don't know if this is a stupid question but oh well, I kind of wanna know what tbt thinks! Keep it civil, even though I dont think this thread will cause any problem


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## Nightmares (May 21, 2016)

I think they're fine. It's not like guys would be looking over the stalls at girls or anything dumb like that. (I hope lmao).


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## Wolfycheeks (May 21, 2016)

I think this thread is gonna explode with drama, and I will probably help start it lol.

I don't think it's neccisary at all, you're either male or female (trans is male or female too), and even if you don't identify as male or female, if you pass as one or the other in society's eyes, then you should have no trouble going to the toilet to pee. Nobody needs to know you're 'genderfluid' so just go and have a piss.


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## MozzarellaSticks (May 21, 2016)

It's a non issue. The only reason this is an issue is because the media latched onto it to make it one. It's simply a distraction. No one cares, really. They could have switched to unisex bathrooms overnight and no one would have batted an eye. Sure, you'd have a few loud bigots, but they'll always be there. The majority of people would have just moved on with their lives. So many places had already changed to unisex bathrooms before the media storm without any big controversy. The media just likes to sensationalize things so you pay attention, and then you ignore the real issues.


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## Aronthaer (May 21, 2016)

oh boy, I think I'll sit out on this one. have fun y'all.


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## LethalLulu (May 21, 2016)

Please stay on topic ffs.

I think certain bathrooms should be unisex.  Most conventions I go to have unisex bathrooms and there's literally never been a problem.  Everyone's so cool about it.


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## seliph (May 21, 2016)

They're great, especially for nonbinary people and trans people who haven't started transitioning yet who are scared to go in a mens or womens washroom. No one's forcing anyone to go in them so who cares. Plus family bathrooms (which are basically genderless bathrooms) already exist and they're doing fine, unisex bathrooms just means more of that.



Wolfycheeks said:


> Nobody needs to know you're 'genderfluid' so just go and have a piss.



I'd like to know who goes in unisex bathrooms screaming "I'm genderfluid". They just want to pee in a bathroom that doesn't misgender them.


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## Seroja (May 21, 2016)

It's okay I guess. I used a unisex washroom once like 7 years ago. It was okay. It was normal.

Edit: you mean bathroom as in where you shower or just washroom/toilet? Sorry cos in my country we use both terms to refer to the same thing (language translation stuff)


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## N e s s (May 21, 2016)

I don't mind it at all


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## Wolfycheeks (May 21, 2016)

nvll said:


> They're great, especially for nonbinary people and trans people who haven't started transitioning yet who are scared to go in a mens or womens washroom. No one's forcing anyone to go in them so who cares. Plus family bathrooms (which are basically genderless bathrooms) already exist and they're doing fine, unisex bathrooms just means more of that.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to know who goes in unisex bathrooms screaming "I'm genderfluid". They just want to pee in a bathroom that doesn't misgender them.



So the only solution for these people is a unisex bathroom then.. well, fine with me, even though I don't believe in nonbinary. And I think you'd be suprised, the stories you read on tumblr.. lol. Also nonbinary people transitioning is such a weird concept, they claim to not be male or female, so what do you transition into? nothing? do you just go from something to nothing? I hate it when nonbinary people call themselves transgender.


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## seliph (May 21, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> So the only solution for these people is a unisex bathroom then.. well, fine with me, even though I don't believe in nonbinary. And I think you'd be suprised, the stories you read on tumblr.. lol. Also nonbinary people transitioning is such a weird concept, they claim to not be male or female, so what do you transition into? nothing? do you just go from something to nothing? I hate it when nonbinary people call themselves transgender.



Nonbinary people have been around since before the pyramids but alrighty.
Some of them transition because sometimes they feel more masculine or more feminine and want their outer appearance to reflect that. It's a pretty simple concept actually.

Also nb people are under the transgender spectrum whether you like it or not.


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## Sporge27 (May 21, 2016)

Look the problem with regulating a lot of these things by law is there are weird exceptions.  What about hermaphrodites, can they use neither?  Is it rare to find someone with both sex organs yes but it isn't unheard of.

I do think that a unisex bathroom is a solution, but to be completely frank I never really cared who was in what bathroom, I just want a urinal to use.


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## Wolfycheeks (May 21, 2016)

Sporge27 said:


> Look the problem with regulating a lot of these things by law is there are weird exceptions.  What about hermaphrodites, can they use neither?  Is it rare to find someone with both sex organs yes but it isn't unheard of.
> 
> I do think that a unisex bathroom is a solution, but to be completely frank I never really cared who was in what bathroom, I just want a urinal to use.



I think what it all comes down to is expression. Like I said before, if you have male genitalia but pass as a female (trans or just crossdresser, wahtever you want to) and go to the womens toilet, there should be no issue. Same as hermaphrodite, if they look male male toilet, female female toilet, problem solved.


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## enchilada (May 21, 2016)

*reaches for popcorn*

dis gon b gud


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## Wolfycheeks (May 21, 2016)

nvll said:


> Nonbinary people have been around since before the pyramids but alrighty.
> Some of them transition because sometimes they feel more masculine or more feminine and want their outer appearance to reflect that. It's a pretty simple concept actually.
> 
> Also nb people are under the transgender spectrum whether you like it or not.



Where's your source for that? Did they all go on tumblr with their stone tablets and screamed about their new gender, 'sphinxgender'? And if they feel more masculine or feminine then they're binary. Maybe not inside, but nobody cares. And when it comes down to this issue, if they're nonbinary but more feminine or masculine, then they go to the female or male bathroom, problem solved.


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## seliph (May 21, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> I think what it all comes down to is expression. Like I said before, if you have male genitalia but pass as a female (trans or just crossdresser, wahtever you want to) and go to the womens toilet, there should be no issue. Same as hermaphrodite, if they look male male toilet, female female toilet, problem solved.



A man should not be in the woman's bathroom. That's not problem solved, that's creating problems. I'm a guy with long hair who sometimes looks more feminine than masculine. I shouldn't go in the woman's bathroom because I am not a woman. I also wouldn't feel right in there anyways because again, I am not a woman, why would I want to be in the woman's washroom?

Everyone should be able to go into a bathroom that matches their gender or lack thereof, I don't know why people are against this. People just wanna pee and take a **** in peace.


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## Klaus Bear (May 21, 2016)

I support it. I personally think it's very important for people who are gender non-conforming. People seem to think it's gonna cause a lot of problems, but it won't cause any problems that weren't already here. Like, people think women are going to get assaulted by men but tbh that already happens to me like once a week minimum and no one does anything about it lmao why would it be different if it happened in a bathroom ???


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## Wolfycheeks (May 21, 2016)

nvll said:


> A man should not be in the woman's bathroom. That's not problem solved, that's creating problems. I'm a guy with long hair who sometimes looks more feminine than masculine. I shouldn't go in the woman's bathroom because I am not a woman. I also wouldn't feel right in there anyways because again, I am not a woman, why would I want to be in the woman's washroom?
> 
> Everyone should be able to go into a bathroom that matches their gender or lack thereof, I don't know why people are against this. People just wanna pee and take a **** in peace.



No, I don't mean a man should be in the womens bathroom, I never said that. I mean trans women, maybe I was being a bit vague. And when you talk about feminine guys and tomboys, well, that speaks for itself.


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## seliph (May 21, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> Where's your source for that? Did they all go on tumblr with their stone tablets and screamed about their new gender, 'sphinxgender'? And if they feel more masculine or feminine then they're binary. Maybe not inside, but nobody cares. And when it comes down to this issue, if they're nonbinary but more feminine or masculine, then they go to the female or male bathroom, problem solved.



Non-binary isn't a tumblr thing oh my god lol. I don't know why I'm bothering if you're one of those people who think every "new" concept they don't understand is from tumblr. You can literally google non-binary history and find a plethora of information about it but I doubt you will. I doubt you'd even read a source if I linked 10.

Saying "nobody cares" is a rather grand claim for someone who doesn't even believe in nonbinary people. But again, a problem isn't solved if someone is still uncomfortable going into a bathroom.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Wolfycheeks said:


> No, I don't mean a man should be in the womens bathroom, I never said that. I mean trans women, maybe I was being a bit vague. And when you talk about feminine guys and tomboys, well, that speaks for itself.



Oh okay, you said "crossdresser" which is still a cis person that's why I assumed.


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## honeymoo (May 21, 2016)

Bathrooms are for using the BATHROOM!! There's 0 need for them to be labelled. Like ppl need to get over it.


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## RainbowCherry (May 21, 2016)

...Eh, people could pretend to be unisex and peek into the other stalls because for some reason stalls have gaps, as Nightmares said directly indirectly.

I don't really think it's necessary _for_ gender reasons, but when an establishment can only, for whatever reason, get one bathroom it could be a very tactful placement, and have it appeal to that crowd at the same time would be nice. I don't really know how much building a whole room costs. As also stated by others, the purpose of a bathroom is to go to the toilet. Women's stalls don't have urinals for obvious reasons, and men's do, and such. They're literally designed to accommodate for what your *genitals* are, not what your... gender is? Is that the right word?


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## Wolfycheeks (May 21, 2016)

nvll said:


> Non-binary isn't a tumblr thing oh my god lol. I don't know why I'm bothering if you're one of those people who think every "new" concept they don't understand is from tumblr. You can literally google non-binary history and find a plethora of information about it but I doubt you will. I doubt you'd even read a source if I linked 10.
> 
> Saying "nobody cares" is a rather grand claim for someone who doesn't even believe in nonbinary people. But again, a problem isn't solved if someone is still uncomfortable going into a bathroom.



Pages like what? 'everyday feminism'? 'nonbinary.com'? everything is on pages like LGBT, not a single actual history page to be found that talks about it, I never read about it in any of my history classes either, and I quite like history lol.

Also look at this and tell me again how these things aren't made up by tumblr. Edit: the word poop is banned so the page does not work. This is another example.


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## seliph (May 21, 2016)

RainbowCherry said:


> ...Eh, people could pretend to be unisex and peek into the other stalls because for some reason stalls have gaps, as Nightmares said.



If people were gonna perv on others they would do it in any bathroom. Unisex bathrooms aren't gonna change anything in that area.


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## Wolfycheeks (May 21, 2016)

RainbowCherry said:


> ...Eh, people could pretend to be unisex and peek into the other stalls because for some reason stalls have gaps, as Nightmares said.
> 
> I don't really think it's necessary _for_ gender reasons, but when an establishment can only, for whatever reason, get one bathroom it could be a very tactful placement, and have it appeal to that crowd at the same time would be nice. I don't really know how much building a whole room costs. As also stated by others, the purpose of a bathroom is to go to the toilet. Women's stalls don't have urinals for obvious reasons, and men's do, and such. They're literally designed to accommodate for what your *genitals* are, not what your... gender is? Is that the right word?



Listen to Tristana. She isn't the best champ for no reason. :^)


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## That Zephyr Guy (May 21, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> Pages like what? 'everyday feminism'? 'nonbinary.com'? everything is on pages like LGBT, not a single actual history page to be found that talks about it, I never read about it in any of my history classes either, and I quite like history lol.
> 
> Also look at this and tell me again how these things aren't made up by tumblr. Edit: the word poop is banned so the page does not work. This is another example.



Well if you desperately need a source for an ancient form of non-binaryism


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit



Sources can be found at the bottom of the page.


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## RainbowCherry (May 21, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> Listen to Tristana. She isn't the best champ for no reason. :^)



IS THAT A ROCKET IN YOUR POCKET FEMALE CHAMPION


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## Wolfycheeks (May 21, 2016)

That Zephyr Guy said:


> Well if you desperately need a source for an ancient form of non-binaryism
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit
> ...



Look, anyone can edit a wikipedia page, wikipedia will let you type Hitler is actually an alien living on the moon if you give them 10 bucks. Unreliable source.


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## RainbowCherry (May 21, 2016)

nvll said:


> If people were gonna perv on others they would do it in any bathroom. Unisex bathrooms aren't gonna change anything in that area.



It's not inconspicuous at all to walk into a girls bathroom as a dude?


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## Wolfycheeks (May 21, 2016)

RainbowCherry said:


> IS THAT A ROCKET IN YOUR POCKET FEMALE CHAMPION



I'm a female champion? Now I just need a summoner, lol. Also her skins are so cute ugh, but, we all know cutest ADC is twitch. Last post i'll make before I go too much offtopic : <


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## Jacob (May 21, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> Look, anyone can edit a wikipedia page, wikipedia will let you type Hitler is actually an alien living on the moon if you give them 10 bucks. Unreliable source.



I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing with anyone, but That Zephyr Guy was actually referring to the reliable sources that influenced the wiki page, not the page itself I think.

Edit: The ones that were referenced and cited at the end of the page.


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## seliph (May 21, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> Look, anyone can edit a wikipedia page, wikipedia will let you type Hitler is actually an alien living on the moon if you give them 10 bucks. Unreliable source.


It's actually not that easy to screw with Wikipedia anymore though, you'll be IP banned from editing and they'll revert the information if it's wrong.



RainbowCherry said:


> It's not inconspicuous at all to walk into a girls bathroom as a dude?


When.... where did I say that at all

Edit you edited your post and now I don't even know what you're saying


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## leftTBT (May 21, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> I don't think it's neccisary at all, you're either male or female (trans is male or female too), and even if you don't identify as male or female, if you pass as one or the other in society's eyes, then you should have no trouble going to the toilet to pee.



I agree, except I do think that unisex bathrooms are a good idea. If you're transgender (male to female, for example) and don't look like a random creeper who obviously isn't transgender, I doubt most people are going to start assessing whether you look 'female enough' and harass you if you go into the women's bathroom. 
If someone who is transgender/starting to transition doesn't feel comfortable and is afraid of getting harassed, then I think we should have a unisex bathroom option, too. 
But things like Target's policy are just asking for non-transgender creepers to take advantage of it. 
That's just my opinion.


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## mogyay (May 21, 2016)

men perv on women everyday in broad daylight, they don't have to walk into a bathroom when it's already easy


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## seliph (May 21, 2016)

hotcocoa said:


> But things like Target's policy are just asking for non-transgender creepers to take advantage of it.
> That's just my opinion.



Again, people do not need unisex or trans-friendly bathrooms to creep on people. If someone wanted to sexually harass someone, they would do it regardless of the washroom they're in.


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## That Zephyr Guy (May 21, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> Look, anyone can edit a wikipedia page, wikipedia will let you type Hitler is actually an alien living on the moon if you give them 10 bucks. Unreliable source.




Sources. Are. At. The Bottom.


Here, I'll pull a few up for you since you're insistent on being stubborn.


http://nativeout.com/twospirit-rc/two-spirit-101/
http://nativeout.com/twospirit-rc/two-spirit-101/two-spirit-terms-in-tribal-languages/
http://www.buffalo.edu/ubreporter/archive/vol38/vol38n24/articles/BacigalupoShamens.html
https://books.google.com/books?id=d5mqEk6UKUUC&pg=PA151#v=onepage&q&f=false



Also, hey look, the Samoans have something similar to this to:

http://assofias.webs.com/visionmissioncharity.htm 
http://www.abc.net.au/ra/pacific/people/hazy.htm



So yeah, there's your sources.


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## RainbowCherry (May 21, 2016)

nvll said:


> It's actually not that easy to screw with Wikipedia anymore though, you'll be IP banned from editing and they'll revert the information if it's wrong.
> 
> 
> When.... where did I say that at all
> ...



Didn't change anything I said about that, I just edited my grammar issue and changed a bit of wording because I had differing opinions about something and pointed that out so they wouldn't assume, but you're likely not referencing that, but that's all I edited. I said not not suspicious technically, so, disregard the thing with the huge line through it? I honestly don't know why I just didn't remove it completely.

"If people were gonna perv on others they would do it in any bathroom. Unisex bathrooms aren't gonna change anything in that area."

Unless the whole word is into their own gender, why would it not be suspicious for them to walk into the bathroom they want to perv on... which would, from the majority, would be the opposite? 

^People can perv on each other in broad daylight, yeah, but people aren't naked from the waist-down in public, and a creepy creep would vastly prefer that, unless I'm being stupid or whatever.


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## Aali (May 21, 2016)

I think they're ok (mainly because I never ever use public bathrooms) especially if you're trans, also love family bathrooms I remember being scared to go in when I was little and my dad had to stay outside and I got nervous of all the other people in there

But I do not believe in nonbinary (probably gonna get hate for saying it but hey its the internet)


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## Gregriii (May 21, 2016)

Remember to keep it civil, please


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## Wolfycheeks (May 21, 2016)

That Zephyr Guy said:


> Sources. Are. At. The Bottom.
> 
> 
> Here, I'll pull a few up for you since you're insistent on being stubborn.
> ...



Calm down man, I did read it. It's so much different from now though, they're demanding attetion and to be treated like a special snowflake. I also don't think it worked quite the same. What nonbinary people want is to be special. Last cis-person I saw on tumblr, well, I can't even remember. It's almost a trend nowadays to be anythng other then cis. It's just a cry for attention or the need to feel special. Most of them don't even want to change, they just want they/them (or ze/zir etc) pronouns, but not actually change their bodies, which also does not make them trans, since they're not even transitioning.. which they ofcourse claim to be. Did you know, on trans day of visibility, the day to raise awareness for transgender people, people who go trough a lot of ****, who face struggles about their body every day, who kill themselves, and so on, was taken over by thousands of nonbinary people, who are 100% okay with showing off their genitals on their tumblr, calling themselves cute little princesses (while claiming to be nonbinary)? It just annoys me so much. They should just go to the disabled space toilets.


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## seliph (May 21, 2016)

RainbowCherry said:


> Didn't change anything I said about that, I just edited my grammar issue and changed a bit of wording because I had differing opinions about something and pointed that out so they wouldn't assume, but you're likely not referencing that, but that's all I edited. I said not not suspicious technically, so, disregard the thing with the huge line through it? I honestly don't know why I just didn't remove it completely.



You changed the itallics to a strikeout, that's where I got confused and thought maybe I read the comment wrong



RainbowCherry said:


> Unless the whole word is into their own gender, why would it not be suspicious for them to walk into the bathroom they want to perv on... which would, from the majority, would be the opposite?


I never said it wouldn't be suspicious, I'm not sure where you're getting at honestly. I'm saying men walk into the women's washroom with intent to assault all the time, and having unisex/trans-friendly bathrooms isn't gonna heighten that.


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## LethalLulu (May 21, 2016)

mogyay said:


> men perv on women everyday in broad daylight, they don't have to walk into a bathroom when it's already easy



As a cosplayer, I can vouch for this.  (I generally wear a tee-shirt and jeans casually, so I don't get weird/creepy comments about me)

Luckily, I haven't had that many issues because I live in an exTREMELY liberal area.


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## That Zephyr Guy (May 21, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> Calm down man, I did read it. It's so much different from now though, they're demanding attetion and to be treated like a special snowflake. I also don't think it worked quite the same. What nonbinary people want is to be special. Last cis-person I saw on tumblr, well, I can't even remember. It's almost a trend nowadays to be anythng other then cis. It's just a cry for attention or the need to feel special. Most of them don't even want to change, they just want they/them (or ze/zir etc) pronouns, but not actually change their bodies, which also does not make them trans, since they're not even transitioning.. which they ofcourse claim to be. Did you know, on trans day of visibility, the day to raise awareness for transgender people, people who go trough a lot of ****, who face struggles about their body every day, who kill themselves, and so on, was taken over by thousands of nonbinary people, who are 100% okay with showing off their genitals on their tumblr, calling themselves cute little princesses (while claiming to be nonbinary)? It just annoys me so much. They should just go to the disabled space toilets.



You're doing quite a lot of talking about what non binaries want for somebody who isn't non binary.

Maybe before trying to condemn all non binaries you should do a little research yourself as to what they're actually like instead of making assumptions based off of a few troll blogs and strawmen.


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## Wolfycheeks (May 21, 2016)

That Zephyr Guy said:


> You're doing quite a lot of talking about what non binaries want for somebody who isn't non binary.
> 
> Maybe before trying to condemn all non binaries you should do a little research yourself as to what they're actually like instead of making assumptions based off of a few troll blogs and strawmen.



You think i'm not doing research or have zero experience with them, but I do, as I said, 90% of tumblr is nonbinary right now, and I have talked to enough in real life too, most of my friends from art school even suddenly became non binary.


Also in the source you posted:
_"The Mapuche communities see machi practice as both sacred and gender deviant, and machi themselves have reacted to Chilean national and Mapuche prejudices against gender variance by shrouding their shifting gender identities and sexualities in silence._"

Two-spirit sounds way more like transgender then nonbinary though. Also a term made up in 1990.. not really back to the pyramids.


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## leftTBT (May 21, 2016)

Gosh, can we talk about anything here without fighting? ._.


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## LethalLulu (May 21, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> Calm down man, I did read it. It's so much different from now though, they're demanding attetion and to be treated like a special snowflake. I also don't think it worked quite the same. What nonbinary people want is to be special. Last cis-person I saw on tumblr, well, I can't even remember. It's almost a trend nowadays to be anythng other then cis. It's just a cry for attention or the need to feel special. Most of them don't even want to change, they just want they/them (or ze/zir etc) pronouns, but not actually change their bodies, which also does not make them trans, since they're not even transitioning.. which they ofcourse claim to be. Did you know, on trans day of visibility, the day to raise awareness for transgender people, people who go trough a lot of ****, who face struggles about their body every day, who kill themselves, and so on, was taken over by thousands of nonbinary people, who are 100% okay with showing off their genitals on their tumblr, calling themselves cute little princesses (while claiming to be nonbinary)? It just annoys me so much. They should just go to the disabled space toilets.


I'm agendered, and I do get extremely depressed/suicidal when I worry about my gender too much...
I just don't want anyone to think of me as my gender...that's why I'll go by male or female pronouns.  Like, I literally don't care, as long as I know you're referring to me.  I've never associated with being a female, but I don't quite feel male.  Does that mean I'm not real?  Maybe this all is just a simulation kek.


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## Wolfycheeks (May 21, 2016)

LethalLulu said:


> I'm agendered, and I do get extremely depressed/suicidal when I worry about my gender too much...
> I just don't want anyone to think of me as my gender...that's why I'll go by male or female pronouns.  Like, I literally don't care, as long as I know you're referring to me.  I've never associated with being a female, but I don't quite feel male.  Does that mean I'm not real?  Maybe this all is just a simulation kek.



Well no, it doesn't mean you're not real, I am wondering why you feel upset when people see you as a female though? I think you will eventually find peace with it.


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## That Zephyr Guy (May 21, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> You think i'm not doing research or have zero experience with them, but I do, as I said, 90% of tumblr is nonbinary right now, and I have talked to enough in real life too, most of my friends from art school even suddenly became non binary.
> 
> 
> Also in the source you posted:
> ...



Read again. The term was adopted in 1990, but it's a concept in native american culture that's been around for much much longer.


http://www.firstpeople.us/articles/the-two-spirit-people-of-indigenous-north-americans.html


This article even mentions 

"The most common term to define such person today is to refer to them as 'two-spirit' people, but in the past feminine males were sometimes referred to as 'berdache' *by early French explorerers* in North America."

Which effectively dates nonbinary genders in native american culture AT LEAST back to the 14th and 15th centuries.


So yeah, maybe not pyramids old, but definitely ancient.


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## Zane (May 21, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> Also a term made up in 1990.. not really back to the pyramids.



a concept can exist before the term is invented lol


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## LyssaAutumn (May 21, 2016)

Hi Zephyr, just checked out these links and they all seem to be about transgender people, or shamans that need to assume an opposite gender role during rituals, rather than non-binary or agender people in prehistory.  you kind of prove the point that wiki is full of bad sources.


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## LethalLulu (May 21, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> Well no, it doesn't mean you're not real, I am wondering why you feel upset when people see you as a female though? I think you will eventually find peace with it.



Because I don't associate myself with having a gender.  At all.  A lot of it is because deep down I wish gender didn't exist at all, but that's a Utopia for me.  I see myself as an individual, a person, not a female.  I actually get really uncomfortable when people refer to me directly by my gender like going "right this way, ladies".  Like, I'm not a lady.  I usually don't say anything unless I know I'll be seeing this person again.  Everyone's been great about it.


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## Wolfycheeks (May 21, 2016)

LethalLulu said:


> Because I don't associate myself with having a gender.  At all.  A lot of it is because deep down I wish gender didn't exist at all, but that's a Utopia for me.  I see myself as an individual, a person, not a female.  I actually get really uncomfortable when people refer to me directly by my gender like going "right this way, ladies".  Like, I'm not a lady.  I usually don't say anything unless I know I'll be seeing this person again.  Everyone's been great about it.



Oh, I see, that must be very depressing.. Well, you shouldn't be upset by it, people aren't gonna change to any other pronouns, and they just call you that because of what's in your pants, it doesn't mean you're not an individual! It probably doesn't help, I just mean that you're still a special individual regardless of what pronouns are being used for you.. if that makes sense?


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## seliph (May 21, 2016)

That Zephyr Guy said:


> So yeah, maybe not pyramids old, but definitely ancient.



But wait, there's more.



Wolfycheeks said:


> I think you will eventually find peace with it.



That is such a rude and intrusive thing to say to anyone who is trans or non-binary, you might wanna not do that.


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## LyssaAutumn (May 21, 2016)

nvll said:


> But wait, there's more.
> 
> 
> 
> That is such a rude and intrusive thing to say to anyone who is trans or non-binary, you might wanna not do that.



i dont see the rudeness or offensiveness...the coming to peace?


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## LethalLulu (May 21, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> Oh, I see, that must be very depressing.. Well, you shouldn't be upset by it, people aren't gonna change to any other pronouns, and they just call you that because of what's in your pants, it doesn't mean you're not an individual! It probably doesn't help, I just mean that you're still a special individual regardless of what pronouns are being used for you.. if that makes sense?



No
No
No
No
You refer to someone by what they say you should refer to them, not what's in their pants.  Like what is this, when people first meet each other they rip off their pants+ underwear instead of shaking hands?  

That's extremely disrespectful and ignorant to say.

- - - Post Merge - - -



LyssaAutumn said:


> i dont see the rudeness or offensiveness...the coming to peace?



I actually was extremely offended by it.


----------



## That Zephyr Guy (May 21, 2016)

LyssaAutumn said:


> Hi Zephyr, just checked out these links and they all seem to be about transgender people, or shamans that need to assume an opposite gender role during rituals, rather than non-binary or agender people in prehistory.  you kind of prove the point that wiki is full of bad sources.



I honestly pulled random sources off of the bottom of the page which was lazy of me, but in a thread like this you kind of have to be quick otherwise your point is going to get buried. Some of the sources might be a bit bad but the proper reading will give you the information you need. This is honestly a result of me trying to prove "wikipedia isn't awful" while being rushed.


http://www.willsworld.org/twospiritq-a.html

This article should give a better idea of what it's about.

TL;DR- Two-spirit is a lot closer to Bigender (which is potentially nonbinary) than Transmen or Transwomen


----------



## seliph (May 21, 2016)

LyssaAutumn said:


> i dont see the rudeness or offensiveness...the coming to peace?



The fact that he's saying that in terms of someone's sex is the rude part. That's what people who try to "change" trans (and non-binary) people say to them to make them "realize they were always the gender they were assigned at birth" and that's why it shouldn't be said.


----------



## Wolfycheeks (May 21, 2016)

LethalLulu said:


> No
> No
> No
> No
> ...



So you just ask every single person on the street you come across what their pronouns are before simply asking for directions or when someone dropped their wallet? _'no idea if thats a man or a woman... 5 years later.. wallet is gone.. gender still not figured out'_ 

and no, when people first meet, girls look like girls, guys look like guys, not always because of their hair or clothes, but voice, facial structures, body. That's how you usually notice.

- - - Post Merge - - -




nvll said:


> The fact that he's saying that in terms of someone's sex is the rude part. That's what people who try to "change" trans (and non-binary) people say to them to make them "realize they were always the gender they were assigned at birth" and that's why it shouldn't be said.



I don't mean that at all, do you people always find the tiniest thing to be offended about? I mean you will come to peace with it, with their gender, with their feelings, not with being the gender they were born as.


----------



## Stil (May 21, 2016)

I think we should just have lines of private bathrooms in public places.
I don't like the thought of anybody listening to me take a dump.


----------



## LyssaAutumn (May 21, 2016)

wow thats a terrible thing to do Zephyr especially when you use such patronizing language at the same time as bad sources.  you expected no one to read them maybe?


----------



## LethalLulu (May 21, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> So you just ask every single person on the street you come across what their pronouns are before simply asking for directions or when someone dropped their wallet? _'no idea if thats a man or a woman... 5 years later.. wallet is gone.. gender still not figured out'_
> 
> and no, when people first meet, girls look like girls, guys look like guys, not always because of their hair or clothes, but voice, facial structures, body. That's how you usually notice.



Wtf, no.  When you meet someone, like a colleague at work, a classmate at school, or a roommate, etc, someone you'll see MULTIPLE times, you will say your name which can imply your gender.  If not, you can correct them if they do misgender you.  Do you randomly walk up to people on the street, shake hands and introduce yourself only to ask for directions?  No.

Alos wrong.  One of my male friends at my last university looked feminine because he had boobs.  He was still a guy...
And he introduced himself as James.  KINDA proves that he identifies as male.


----------



## That Zephyr Guy (May 21, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> So you just ask every single person on the street you come across what their pronouns are before simply asking for directions or when someone dropped their wallet? _'no idea if thats a man or a woman... 5 years later.. wallet is gone.. gender still not figured out'_
> 
> and no, when people first meet, girls look like girls, guys look like guys, not always because of their hair or clothes, but voice, facial structures, body. That's how you usually notice.



If somebody corrects you, then you just change what you're using. You don't necessarily have to ask.

If you're worried someone might get offended, go with a gut feeling, or stick with "they".


----------



## seliph (May 21, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> I don't mean that at all, do you people always find the tiniest thing to be offended about? I mean you will come to peace with it, with their gender, with their feelings, not with being the gender they were born as.



I never said you meant it in that sense, I'm saying the reason why it's something that shouldn't be said.


----------



## LethalLulu (May 21, 2016)

Infinity said:


> I think we should just have lines of private bathrooms in public places.
> I don't like the thought of anybody listening to me take a dump.



Ahhh wouldn't that be nice <3
Sadly, that'd be way too expensive for most places.


----------



## leftTBT (May 21, 2016)

LethalLulu said:


> No
> No
> No
> No
> You refer to someone by what they say you should refer to them, not what's in their pants.  _Like what is this, when people first meet each other they rip off their pants+ underwear instead of shaking hands?_



I laughed so, so hard at that. XD
edit: I'm talking about the _'Like what is this, when people first meet each other they rip off their pants+ underwear instead of shaking hands?'_ part, btw.


----------



## Jacob (May 21, 2016)

hotcocoa said:


> Gosh, can we talk about anything here without fighting? ._.



I'd hardly call this fighting, more like a debate. Threads like these that can be argued for both sides usually end up like this, which isn't really a bad thing.

People who participate and read the opinions and sources of others can get educated and decide for themselves which side should be accepted. If we don't have topics like this, people will be very uneducated and speak nonsense when these kind of things show up. 
It only becomes a problem when people criticize others opinions due to their demeanor and something off topic, that's a fight.


----------



## LethalLulu (May 21, 2016)

hotcocoa said:


> I laughed so, so hard at that. XD



Haha, I'm glad.


----------



## ZetaFunction (May 21, 2016)

They're good because it means if the boys/girls restroom is full you can go use it no matter your gender, plus it makes trans/genderfluid/etc. feel more comfortable (I'm assuming?) since it's a non-gendered bathroom, but the bad part that I see is that pervs could easily go in and stalk people like if a kid went into the unisex bathroom there could be a 100+ year old man just standing there not using it and because it's unisex you can't tell him to leave so he could watch kids/perv.  Honestly, I try to avoid unisex bathrooms when I can because I know it's a pretty low chance of that type of stuff happening but I'm not taking any chances.


----------



## leftTBT (May 21, 2016)

Jacob said:


> I'd hardly call this fighting, more like a debate. Threads like these that can be argued for both sides usually end up like this, which isn't really a bad thing.
> 
> People who participate and read the opinions and sources of others can get educated and decide for themselves which side should be accepted. If we don't have topics like this, people will be very uneducated and speak nonsense when these kind of things show up.
> It only becomes a problem when people criticize others opinions due to their demeanor and something off topic, that's a fight.



I completely agree; I was just expecting there to be a fight from how it started out, but it toned back down.


----------



## Gregriii (May 21, 2016)

LethalLulu said:


> Wtf, no.  When you meet someone, like a colleague at work, a classmate at school, or a roommate, etc, someone you'll see MULTIPLE times, you will say your name which can imply your gender.  If not, you can correct them if they do misgender you.  Do you randomly walk up to people on the street, shake hands and introduce yourself only to ask for directions?  No.
> 
> Alos wrong.  One of my male friends at my last university looked feminine because he had boobs.  He was still a guy...
> And he introduced himself as James.  KINDA proves that he identifies as male.



I wonder what would have happened if the name had been Alex, for example


----------



## LethalLulu (May 21, 2016)

Gregriii said:


> I wonder what would have happened if the name had been Alex, for example



Then I might accidentally say "she" once, and after he corrected me, say sorry, and don't misgender him again.  
Boom, done.


----------



## seliph (May 21, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> Can a mod close this thread? It's getting out of control



This isn't really that bad actually. But you should just report the thread rather than make comments like this.


----------



## LethalLulu (May 21, 2016)

Wolfy, do you have a rebuttal for my response on the bottom of page 6?  
I'd like to know what you think of my response to you.


----------



## Oblivia (May 21, 2016)

nvll said:


> This isn't really that bad actually. But you should just report the thread rather than make comments like this.



This exactly.

That being said, everyone does need to tone it back a bit and chill with the insults.  It's sad to me how threads regarding any topic that's even remotely controversial have to be closed because people can't be civil.  It really shouldn't be this hard.  I don't have a problem leaving this open for now, but be warned that it will be closed if things get too out of hand.

And please, no more posts about how something should be closed.  Report it if you think it's bad enough to be looked into and myself or another staff member will be right on it.


----------



## LethalLulu (May 21, 2016)

Oblivia said:


> This exactly.
> 
> That being said, everyone does need to tone it back a bit and chill with the insults.  It's sad to me how threads regarding any topic that's even remotely controversial have to be closed because people can't be civil.  It really shouldn't be this hard.  I don't have a problem leaving this open for now, but be warned that it will be closed if things get too out of hand.
> 
> And please, no more posts about how something should be closed.  Report it if you think it's bad enough to be looked into and myself or another staff member will be right on it.



Thanks, Oblivia.  Civil debates are one of my favorite things on this site.  
I only got slightly personal once, and my emotions happened to take over a little because of how personal the subject was to me.


----------



## Wolfycheeks (May 21, 2016)

LethalLulu said:


> Wtf, no.  When you meet someone, like a colleague at work, a classmate at school, or a roommate, etc, someone you'll see MULTIPLE times, you will say your name which can imply your gender.  If not, you can correct them if they do misgender you.  Do you randomly walk up to people on the street, shake hands and introduce yourself only to ask for directions?  No.
> 
> Alos wrong.  One of my male friends at my last university looked feminine because he had boobs.  He was still a guy...
> And he introduced himself as James.  KINDA proves that he identifies as male.



What I think, TL;DR version because I'm a bit done discussing: If you're male, present male, you get called male, won't be misgendered if you do it right, vice versa. Change your name if neccisary. Dress like how you want to be seen as. Also if your friend with the boobs is trans, he should probably try binding, if that isn't an option then plaid shirts work really well too.


----------



## LethalLulu (May 21, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> What I think, TL;DR version because I'm a bit done discussing: If you're male, present male, you get called male, won't be misgendered if you do it right, vice versa. Change your name if neccisary. Dress like how you want to be seen as. Also if your friend with the boobs is trans, he should probably try binding, if that isn't an option then plaid shirts work really well too.



He doesn't want to, and shouldn't have to.  He can wear whatever he wants.  Sometimes he'd wear dresses, too, and that's a-ok.


----------



## RainbowCherry (May 21, 2016)

nvll said:


> You changed the itallics to a strikeout, that's where I got confused and thought maybe I read the comment wrong
> 
> 
> I never said it wouldn't be suspicious, I'm not sure where you're getting at honestly. I'm saying men walk into the women's washroom with intent to assault all the time, and having unisex/trans-friendly bathrooms isn't gonna heighten that.



I understand your point, if they were going to do it they would do it anyway, but a man standing in a woman's bathroom, vice versa, (caught, mind you, bathrooms are typically very desolate, so they could do it anyway, but _hypothetically._), could get found and, despite not being able to be punished technically I suppose, could theoretically get their ass beaten or something? I... don't actually know.

But a man standing in a unisex bathroom could, unless he was caught in the physical act of the perving, blend in with... plain sight, I suppose is how you would word it?



Oblivia said:


> That being said, everyone dies



WHAT

Don't think we didn't see that cheeky ninja edit m8


----------



## Wolfycheeks (May 21, 2016)

LethalLulu said:


> He doesn't want to, and shouldn't have to.  He can wear whatever he wants.  Sometimes he'd wear dresses, too, and that's a-ok.



Oh, if you want my opinion on this too, it's bull****. If you want to be seen as a guy, if you're really a trans guy, if you're really dysphoric, then you don't wear dresses and don't have your boobs hanging out. Why do I think clothes have a gender? Because society thinks so, and like I said, if you want to be taken seriously as a guy, you don't wear make up, you don't wear a dress. You try to look masculine, to look masculine, to be gendered he/him, to get called sir.


----------



## Princess (May 21, 2016)

who cares if bathrooms are unisex honestly
why is this such a big issue


----------



## skarmoury (May 21, 2016)

Dunno what's happning up there with the other comments (actually can we keep this on topic, it's kinda getting out of hand ///)

If you meant unisex specifically for transgender and such then that's totally fine, whatever makes them comfortable, as long as there are still separate bathrooms for men and women. But like if you meant unisex in a way that makes only one bathroom for everyone then I guess I wouldn't be so comfortable with that...? Idk something about it makes me kinda eh.

Also just a sort of segway, I find it kinda hard to greet people whose gender I initially don't know about or can't tell, because in Filipino we have gender-specific nouns for slightly older people ("ate" for older girls and "kuya" for older guys), kinda like "sister" and "brother" but without the general term "siblings", so I initially have a hard time calling someone politely if they're gay or tomboy, but I do ask them eventually what to call them so as not to be rude ^^;


----------



## LethalLulu (May 21, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> Oh, if you want my opinion on this too, it's bull****. If you want to be seen as a guy, if you're really a trans guy, if you're really dysphoric, then you don't wear dresses and don't have your boobs hanging out. Why do I think clothes have a gender? Because society thinks so, and like I said, if you want to be taken seriously as a guy, you don't wear make up, you don't wear a dress. You try to look masculine, to look masculine, to be gendered he/him, to get called sir.



First of all, he never had his "boobs hanging out" and second of all, who are you to say what people can and cannot do, given it's not illegal or morally incorrect?  It's not affecting you, don't worry about it.
"Because society thinks so"
Another one of the reasons I'm agendered, because apparently all of the stuff I like is "male" stuff.  Like, no, I just like it, don't judge me or label a gender on my _hobbies_ and _interests_.


----------



## seliph (May 21, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> Oh, if you want my opinion on this too, it's bull****. If you want to be seen as a guy, if you're really a trans guy, if you're really dysphoric, then you don't wear dresses and don't have your boobs hanging out. Why do I think clothes have a gender? Because society thinks so, and like I said, if you want to be taken seriously as a guy, you don't wear make up, you don't wear a dress. You try to look masculine, to look masculine, to be gendered he/him, to get called sir.



I love how you just admitted to not being able to think for yourself and basing your views and opinions off of society's.
Clothes do not have a gender. Neither does makeup, hobbies, or interests. Sure, he will have a harder time passing, but he in no way is any less of a man.

Are you trans? No? Stop trying to talk over trans and non-binary people about being trans and non-binary then.


----------



## boujee (May 21, 2016)

I don't mind unisex bathrooms. There's unisex hair and nail salons so I don't mind. 
But to be honest, I've really uncomfortable around men/boys due from a shtty history of cat-calls, sexual assault(oh boy), etc. The same can apply to girls because you know, everyone can be weirdos. I don't really think of it has a trans thing or whatever but it could be for budget cuts or whatever. If you gotta pee, pee.


----------



## Wolfycheeks (May 21, 2016)

nvll said:


> I love how you just admitted to not being able to think for yourself and basing your views and opinions off of society's.
> Clothes do not have a gender. Neither does makeup, hobbies, or interests. Sure, he will have a harder time passing, but he in no way is any less of a man.
> 
> Are you trans? No? Stop trying to talk over trans and non-binary people about being trans and non-binary then.



Ofcourse his feelings are valid, but if they were real, if she really was bothered so much by being misgendered, she would change. I know someone who was forced to dress feminine for her boyfriend, while in fact he is a trans guy, and she hated every second of it because she kept getting misgendered by strangers. 

Also, I'm saying that stuff has a gender because it does. Maybe not to a small percentage of people, but in general, outside, at work, at holidays, people dress in the clothes of their gender, like females in dresses. I'm saying if you want to be taken serious, don't wear a dress as a trans guy. He can do whatever he wants, as long as he doesn't whine about being misgendered, because in society's eyes, what he wears is what a girl wears. And that is not gonna change soon. And these are not my words, this is what society sees.

And that is none of your business to be honest.


----------



## Jared:3 (May 21, 2016)

To be honest, transgender bathrooms are a good thing, all your doing is taking a quick pee(especially for guys), and it's a little upsetting to see people fighting


----------



## Oblivia (May 21, 2016)

Temporarily closed for cleanup.  When I reopen this, keep things on topic and chill with the arguing and accusations.  If you think someone's broken ANY of the forum rules, REPORT it instead of publicly calling them out.

Thanks.


----------



## f11 (May 21, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> Ofcourse his feelings are valid, but if they were real, if she really was bothered so much by being misgendered, she would change. I know someone who was forced to dress feminine for her boyfriend, while in fact he is a trans guy, and she hated every second of it because she kept getting misgendered by strangers.
> 
> Also, I'm saying that stuff has a gender because it does. Maybe not to a small percentage of people, but in general, outside, at work, at holidays, people dress in the clothes of their gender, like females in dresses. I'm saying if you want to be taken serious, don't wear a dress as a trans guy. He can do whatever he wants, as long as he doesn't whine about being misgendered, because in society's eyes, what he wears is what a girl wears. And that is not gonna change soon. And these are not my words, this is what society sees.
> 
> And that is none of your business to be honest.


Hey why do you hate non binaries and not think I'm valid or real :/


----------



## seliph (May 21, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> Ofcourse his feelings are valid, but if they were real, if she really was bothered so much by being misgendered, she would change. I know someone who was forced to dress feminine for her boyfriend, while in fact he is a trans guy, and she hated every second of it because she kept getting misgendered by strangers.
> 
> Also, I'm saying that stuff has a gender because it does. Maybe not to a small percentage of people, but in general, outside, at work, at holidays, people dress in the clothes of their gender, like females in dresses. I'm saying if you want to be taken serious, don't wear a dress as a trans guy. He can do whatever he wants, as long as he doesn't whine about being misgendered, because in society's eyes, what he wears is what a girl wears. And that is not gonna change soon. And these are not my words, this is what society sees.
> 
> And that is none of your business to be honest.



Who are you to say whether someone's trans identity is "real"? Who are you to say what someone should do if they're bothered? Not everyone wants to let themselves be pressured by society into what society deems is a "real" man or "real" woman. The experiences of trans people are not all identical and it is disgusting to assume and demand that idea. Not to mention how you're misgendering someone constantly in that whole little bit.
And no, inanimate objects and pieces of fabric do not have a gender. They have a _targeted_ gender audience that is only enforced as a way to sell said products.

Being misgendered is a huge deal to trans people. You do not get to decide whether they are allowed to _get upset about_, not "whine about", being called the wrong name or pronouns. You do not get to decide whether anyone, whether they are trans or not's feelings about anything are valid or not.


----------



## helloxcutiee (May 21, 2016)

I never been to a unisex bathroom so idk. I'm so used to men and women restrooms being separated that it might be weird.


----------



## That Zephyr Guy (May 21, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> Ofcourse his feelings are valid, but if they were real, if she really was bothered so much by being misgendered, she would change. I know someone who was forced to dress feminine for her boyfriend, while in fact he is a trans guy, and she hated every second of it because she kept getting misgendered by strangers.
> 
> Also, I'm saying that stuff has a gender because it does. Maybe not to a small percentage of people, but in general, outside, at work, at holidays, people dress in the clothes of their gender, like females in dresses. I'm saying if you want to be taken serious, don't wear a dress as a trans guy. He can do whatever he wants, as long as he doesn't whine about being misgendered, because in society's eyes, what he wears is what a girl wears. And that is not gonna change soon. And these are not my words, this is what society sees.
> 
> And that is none of your business to be honest.



Then the goal is to make it more normal to perceive it differently.


----------



## LethalLulu (May 21, 2016)

Helloxcutiee said:


> I never been to a unisex bathroom so idk. I'm so used to men and women restrooms being separated that it might be weird.



It's actually exactly the same.  I remember walking in, looking around and being like "did I waltz into the wrong bathroom?"  but then I noticed that there were more than one gender, and everyone was just doing their stuff.  And I was like *star eyes* WOAH COOL and fixed my cosplay.


----------



## radical6 (May 21, 2016)

i dont care who i pee with as long theyre not peepin on me!


----------



## Wolfycheeks (May 21, 2016)

That Zephyr Guy said:


> Then the goal is to make it more normal to perceive it differently.



Yes, I would agree with this, but I just don't think that's gonna happen. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to dress into a pink sweater with cats on it on a cold day, but I wouldn't really like being seen as a girl in any way. And instead of still doing it, like the guy in the dress, I don't, because it would make me quite upset if I got gendered as a girl for example. Does that make sense? probably not. But that's ok, I think i'm done discussing because this is going nowhere. Nobody is gonna agree with oneanother, no point in discussing. Thank you for taking the time to show me sources, and looking up stuff to educate me.


----------



## LethalLulu (May 21, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> Yes, I would agree with this, but I just don't think that's gonna happen. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to dress into a pink sweater with cats on it on a cold day, but I wouldn't really like being seen as a girl in any way. And instead of still doing it, like the guy in the dress, I don't, because it would make me quite upset if I got gendered as a girl for example. Does that make sense? probably not. But that's ok, I think i'm done discussing because this is going nowhere. Nobody is gonna agree with oneanother, no point in discussing. Thank you for taking the time to show me sources, and looking up stuff to educate me.



I see a lot of guys do this, actually.  The ones who are super against it are usually insecure about their masculinity from what I've seen and heard.
Also pink and cats are gender specific, too?  Nothing is safe.


----------



## That Zephyr Guy (May 21, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> Yes, I would agree with this, but I just don't think that's gonna happen. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to dress into a pink sweater with cats on it on a cold day, but I wouldn't really like being seen as a girl in any way. And instead of still doing it, like the guy in the dress, I don't, because it would make me quite upset if I got gendered as a girl for example. Does that make sense? probably not. But that's ok, I think i'm done discussing because this is going nowhere. Nobody is gonna agree with oneanother, no point in discussing. Thank you for taking the time to show me sources, and looking up stuff to educate me.



If you agree with my sentiment and would love to dress in a pink sweater without your masculinity being called into question then help challenge the idea that you can't dress how you like rather than play the cynic and say it'll never happen.

It'll only never happen when everyone's given up on the idea.


----------



## seliph (May 21, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> And instead of still doing it, like the guy in the dress, I don't, because it would make me quite upset if I got gendered as a girl for example. Does that make sense? probably not. But that's ok, I think i'm done discussing because this is going nowhere.



And that's your experience. Some people want to wear what they want to wear and what they feel comfortable in regardless of being misgendered. Not to mention some people can't afford to buy "their gender"s clothes, or they might not be out to their family and are doing it for safety issues. Again, not every trans persons' experiences are the same and not every trans person even experiences their dysphoria in the same way.

- - - Post Merge - - -



LethalLulu said:


> I see a lot of guys do this, actually.  The ones who are super against it are usually insecure about their masculinity from what I've seen and heard.
> Also pink and cats are gender specific, too?  Nothing is safe.



Isn't pink seen as the "manliest thing in the world" now or something. Isn't that what happened like 10 years ago all the dudebros came together and went PINK IS MANLY and everyone agreed so that they can wear their pink polos with popped collars


----------



## leftTBT (May 21, 2016)

LethalLulu said:


> I see a lot of guys do this, actually.  The ones who are super against it are usually insecure about their masculinity from what I've seen and heard.
> Also pink and cats are gender specific, too?  Nothing is safe.



Oh no, not the cats! *shrieks of horror*
_seriously though_, wearing pink is manly; shows you aren't afraid of having your masculinity questioned.


----------



## LethalLulu (May 21, 2016)

nvll said:


> Isn't pink seen as the "manliest thing in the world" now or something. Isn't that what happened like 10 years ago all the dudebros came together and went PINK IS MANLY and everyone agreed so that they can wear their pink polos with popped collars



Hell yah.  My cousin took part in that too, lol.  Like I wear baggy tee shirts, no make-up, and sweatpants, but then the next day I'll wear a cute dress, do up my (super luxuriously long) hair, wear makeup and feel fabulous.


----------



## Wolfycheeks (May 21, 2016)

That Zephyr Guy said:


> If you agree with my sentiment and would love to dress in a pink sweater without your masculinity being called into question then help challenge the idea that you can't dress how you like rather than play the cynic and say it'll never happen.
> 
> It'll only never happen when everyone's given up on the idea.



Well, love, it was just an example, if it's a warm sweater and I was freezing..lol. But I think most people have given up on the idea, or think it's weird/unusual. I'm not gonna fight against something that is this big. I can't make a difference, nobody is gonna make clothing not-gendered.. 

@nvll, (this is my last post), if they're not out yet, then they should probably be careful with what they tell others. and dysphoria is a requirement to get on hormones, over here at least. if you don't expierence dysphoria you're not trans. why? transgender = transition from male to female, female to male, people who are unhappy with their body. don't bother showing me sources, it has been changed so much, but this is my idea of what it's like. Or as people call it.. what is it again.. 'truscum'? I don't even remember. But yes, this is my last post. I hope. lol


----------



## seliph (May 21, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> @nvll, (this is my last post), if they're not out yet, then they should probably be careful with what they tell others. and dysphoria is a requirement to get on hormones, over here at least. if you don't expierence dysphoria you're not trans. why? transgender = transition from male to female, female to male, people who are unhappy with their body. don't bother showing me sources, it has been changed so much, but this is my idea of what it's like. Or as people call it.. what is it again.. 'truscum'? I don't even remember. But yes, this is my last post. I hope. lol



Didn't say any of that, I said dysphoria is experienced differently for different people, especially seeing as there are different types of dysphoria.


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## radical6 (May 21, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> Well, love, it was just an example, if it's a warm sweater and I was freezing..lol. But I think most people have given up on the idea, or think it's weird/unusual. I'm not gonna fight against something that is this big. I can't make a difference, nobody is gonna make clothing not-gendered..
> 
> @nvll, (this is my last post), if they're not out yet, then they should probably be careful with what they tell others. and dysphoria is a requirement to get on hormones, over here at least. if you don't expierence dysphoria you're not trans. why? transgender = transition from male to female, female to male, people who are unhappy with their body. don't bother showing me sources, it has been changed so much, but this is my idea of what it's like. Or as people call it.. what is it again.. 'truscum'? I don't even remember. But yes, this is my last post. I hope. lol




i agree people need dysphoria to be trans, but they really dont have to "dress" a certain way to be trans. the only requirement to be trans is dysphoria, and whether or not they live up to gender roles doesnt mean anything.


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## Mega_Cabbage (May 21, 2016)

I think it's fine as long as it is in addition to the traditional men/women restrooms in case people want a little bit more privacy. In the end it just means less time spent waiting for a stall to be unoccupied.


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## LethalLulu (May 21, 2016)

Mega_Cabbage said:


> In the end it just means less time spent waiting for a stall to be unoccupied.



Wait....YAH!  WHY HAVEN'T WE BROUGHT UP THIS?!


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## Corrie (May 21, 2016)

As long as there are stalls, who cares? When I'm taking a dump, I don't care if there is a guy or a girl in the stall next to me.


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## Mints (May 21, 2016)

They're great for mothers who have a bunch of little kids, yeah. As well as people who are nonbinary/etc. I don't mind them one bit, it's not much of a big deal, and I don't get why some hate it as much as they do.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Corrie said:


> As long as there are stalls, who cares? When I'm taking a dump, I don't care if there is a guy or a girl in the stall next to me.



Same tho


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## Aali (May 21, 2016)

Seems everything I said (even tho nothing was mean) was deleted in the clean-up :/

As I said before, I do not believe in non-binary. But I think unisex bathrooms is great for trans, and moms with sons/ dads with daughters


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## LethalLulu (May 21, 2016)

Mints said:


> They're great for mothers who have a bunch of little kids, yeah. As well as people who are nonbinary/etc. I don't mind them one bit, it's not much of a big deal, and I don't get why some hate it as much as they do.



Yah, I won't be letting my 8 year old boy into the men's bathroom alone.


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## Mellyjan3 (May 21, 2016)

I think they are a wonderful idea, simply put.


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## Jared:3 (May 21, 2016)

I don't poop in public XD, but yeah I find them okay, but my parents are VERY against it


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## nintendofan85 (May 21, 2016)

I don't really care, honestly.


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## Tensu (May 21, 2016)

I wouldn't feel comfortable using it, but if people behave themselves I don't really see the problem.


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## KaydeeKrunk (May 22, 2016)

I honestly think Unisex bathrooms are the way it should be, men don't NEED urinals, all they would have to do is make the door/separaters taller, lower, and maybe make it so the doors could fully close and don't leave that little crack. Or, better yet, just make more SINGLE bathrooms so people can have the full privacy of their own room to go in. I just think it's silly, like that's the only way to make it so it's private and safe tbh, anybody can rape anybody, being a douche and not letting someone use the bathroom they want is just causing more of a problem.


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## EmmaFrost (May 22, 2016)

My school has "gender inclusive" bathrooms but they are just individual ones, not stalls. They are super roomy and don't smell bad and they're also accessible for people with disabilities and it's great. Everything should be accessible to everyone, it makes the world happier.


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## seliph (May 22, 2016)

KaydeeKrunk said:


> I honestly think Unisex bathrooms are the way it should be, men don't NEED urinals, all they would have to do is make the door/separaters taller, lower, and maybe make it so the doors could fully close and don't leave that little crack. Or, better yet, just make more SINGLE bathrooms so people can have the full privacy of their own room to go in. I just think it's silly, like that's the only way to make it so it's private and safe tbh, anybody can rape anybody, being a douche and not letting someone use the bathroom they want is just causing more of a problem.



Tbh I hope there are still urinals inside some stalls 'cause we all know some people ain't gonna put the lid down or they're gonna be too lazy to put them up which ends infinitely worse


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## KaydeeKrunk (May 22, 2016)

nvll said:


> Tbh I hope there are still urinals inside some stalls 'cause we all know some people ain't gonna put the lid down or they're gonna be too lazy to put them up which ends infinitely worse


People with wangs just need to learn how to properly use those things! How hard is it to aim in the middle bit with the water? X.X


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## Red Cat (May 22, 2016)

KaydeeKrunk said:


> I honestly think Unisex bathrooms are the way it should be, men don't NEED urinals



Oh yes we do. For men, peeing in the toilet is like shooting a free throw; we don't always aim well and hit the rim instead of the hoop sometimes.


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## Stil (May 22, 2016)

Red Cat said:


> Oh yes we do. For men, peeing in the toilet is like shooting a free throw; we don't always aim well and hit the rim instead of the hoop sometimes.



I usually just pee on the walls, then leave.

- - - Post Merge - - -

Sorry that comment was immature. It's late.


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## Red Cat (May 22, 2016)

Infinity said:


> I usually just pee on the walls, then leave.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> Sorry that comment was immature. It's late.



It's okay. Sometimes you miss both the hoop and the rim and hit the backboard instead.


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## Jared:3 (May 22, 2016)

Red Cat said:


> Oh yes we do. For men, peeing in the toilet is like shooting a free throw; we don't always aim well and hit the rim instead of the hoop sometimes.



lol, no need for girls, as they don't have a wiener, and don't have to worry about that, I agree bro we do need urinals, as I can imagine men peeing all over the toilet!


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## KaydeeKrunk (May 22, 2016)

Red Cat said:


> Oh yes we do. For men, peeing in the toilet is like shooting a free throw; we don't always aim well and hit the rim instead of the hoop sometimes.



Well I mean, you spend enough time with the things, you would think you'd learn at least some control over them besides just... well you know.


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## Red Cat (May 22, 2016)

KaydeeKrunk said:


> Well I mean, you spend enough time with the things, you would think you'd learn at least some control over them besides just... well you know.



"Men" and "self-control" are rarely used in the same sentence.


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## focus (May 22, 2016)

i feel like people are making such a big deal when its really nothing to worry about

- - - Post Merge - - -



Red Cat said:


> "Men" and "self-control" are rarely used in the same sentence.



..wow


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## KaydeeKrunk (May 22, 2016)

Red Cat said:


> "Men" and "self-control" are rarely used in the same sentence.



So I mean, at home do you have a urinal? Or do you just pee on everything because you don't care?
_Also this sounds like something a rapist would say in court..._


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## Red Cat (May 22, 2016)

KaydeeKrunk said:


> So I mean, at home do you have a urinal? Or do you just pee on everything because you don't care?



Well, tbh I sit down to pee at home because I don't want to splatter all over the place. I don't like to sit on toilets in public restrooms though because god knows what's on that toilet seat.



> _Also this sounds like something a rapist would say in court..._


Thanks for the legal advice in case I ever need it.


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## KaydeeKrunk (May 22, 2016)

Red Cat said:


> Well, tbh I sit down to pee at home because I don't want to splatter all over the place. I don't like to sit on toilets in public restrooms though because god knows what's on that toilet seat.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the legal advice in case I ever need it.



Do you think us girls WANT to sit down to pee? If it's a really gross bathroom I'll usually hover, but otherwise they have seat covers to use. It's really not that hard to deal with. Tbh.


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## Red Cat (May 22, 2016)

KaydeeKrunk said:


> Do you think us girls WANT to sit down to pee? If it's a really gross bathroom I'll usually hover, but otherwise they have seat covers to use. It's really not that hard to deal with. Tbh.



I'm sorry about the whole biology thing, but since I'm lucky enough to have a penis, I'd like to have a place to use it. It would be a shame to waste it just sitting down on toilet seats like women have to.


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## focus (May 22, 2016)

this is the dumbest thing to argue about... like........................ wow


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## Red Cat (May 22, 2016)

focus said:


> this is the dumbest thing to argue about... like........................ wow



People give a s*** about where they take a s*** and get pissed off if a creep watches them take a piss.

I specialize in toilet humor. Just look at my title.


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## cIementine (May 22, 2016)

i think they're great, especially for nonbinary people and trans people who haven't yet transitioned.
a lot of people are against them, for some reason, but i'm pretty sure the bathrooms people have at home aren't divided between gender, and everyone uses them, so why can't we do the same in public facilities?


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## Mash (May 22, 2016)

Okay guys, don't hate me on this.  But me and my family are people who dont believe in these things.  We thing it's wrong I just hope there won't be pervs in the bathroom.  Please don't hate me on this pleasr, its just my opinion.


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## Nightmares (May 22, 2016)

What is this talk about pissing over the walls? Do you guys not have toilets at home or some ****


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## KarlaKGB (May 22, 2016)

lets be honest, have u ever seen a queue for the mens room at a club? women are just slower when it comes to using the bathroom, not their fault but men shouldnt be punished for it either hehe


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## Brackets (May 22, 2016)

My uni has unisex bathrooms, and although it was a little weird at first I don't see any issue. They're at the student club too, and so even though there's tons of drunk people in there all the time there's never been a problem. And there's never a queue!


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## Aestivate (May 22, 2016)

Oh, seems like I've missed all the fun during my night.

Anyway, if I'm going to use a public bathroom, I don't care who's into the same room as me, be that a male or a female. If it turns out that we're all going to use unisex bathrooms in the future, then that's completely fine by me. 
Obviously, I can't see this from the perspective of a person that is transgender/genderqueer because I'm not. So I don't think I should be a person to judge if transgenders/genderqueers are best of using gender specific bathrooms or unisex bathrooms in society nowadays. Besides, I can imagine that last thing is hugely affected by the culture and social environment you live in. 
All I can say is that I don't have a problem with either of the options.


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## Qwerty111 (May 22, 2016)

I went in a unisex bathroom while I was in a different country once and I felt a little creeped out honestly. Maybe because the urinals were like... all out there. Idk at least make it a private area? Wall it off a bit? idk. If it was the norm, I wouldn't mind it i guess.


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## Fleshy (May 22, 2016)

Yes, gender neutral/unisex bathrooms are 100% a good thing. They should probably be an option as in male bathrooms, female bathrooms and gender neutral bathrooms, that way people who feel "uncomfortable" or "creeped out" at the thought of gender neutral bathrooms have the choice not to use them. 

Gender neutral bathrooms are essential to nb and trans people, many of whom won't even use restrooms in public due to fear. I don't see how having an extra bathroom in public places that have bathrooms already bothers people that won't use it?

If you don't agree with gender neutral bathrooms then don't use them, but some people need them.


_(late here but w/e)_


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## PandaDarling (May 22, 2016)

no, i work at a bar and that wouldn't be good at all. i think there might be a certain place and time for them but i don't think unisex restrooms would work everywhere..


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## visibleghost (May 22, 2016)

lmao i missed this thread anyways  sss ss

i think unisex bathrooms are great. theyre rly great for trans ppl who avoid going to the bathroom in public because of fear of being harrassed.


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## namiieco (May 22, 2016)

i dont really care


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## Bowie (May 22, 2016)

I don't have anything against them, but I don't think they're really necessary. If you need to pee, you need to pee. Gender shouldn't really come into it when you're about to ruin your clothes.


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## seliph (May 22, 2016)

Bowie said:


> If you need to pee, you need to pee. Gender shouldn't really come into it when you're about to ruin your clothes.



Tell that to the people harassing trans people in bathrooms just for wanting to pee

(and now harassing cis people who they _think_ are trans just 'cause of their hair/clothes lmao)


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## Bowie (May 22, 2016)

nvll said:


> Tell that to the people harassing trans people in bathrooms just for wanting to pee
> 
> (and now harassing cis people who they _think_ are trans just 'cause of their hair/clothes lmao)



I think it's ridiculous, yeah. People should just be left alone to do their business. I pretty much never go in public bathrooms, but if I ever did I wouldn't care at all about what everyone else was doing or what their genders/sexes were. Wouldn't even cross my mind.


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## visibleghost (May 22, 2016)

Bowie said:


> I think it's ridiculous, yeah. People should just be left alone to do their business. I pretty much never go in public bathrooms, but if I ever did I wouldn't care at all about what everyone else was doing or what their genders/sexes were. Wouldn't even cross my mind.



sadly not everyone is as chill abt it as u are. trans ppl get harrassed in bathrooms a lot.,


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## Red Cat (May 22, 2016)

Mash said:


> Okay guys, don't hate me on this.  But me and my family are people who dont believe in these things.  We thing it's wrong I just hope there won't be pervs in the bathroom.  Please don't hate me on this pleasr, its just my opinion.



I don't want perverts in the bathroom either, but do you think a sign by the door is going to stop a pervert who is really determined? If I wanted to go into the women's bathroom and spy on people, I don't have to dress any particular way; I can just walk right in and no one can stop me. I suppose someone could call the cops, but I could be gone by the time they get there and are they really going to waste resources trying to charge me unless I assaulted someone? This is why I think the whole bathroom issue is overblown. If someone is really being a pervert or abusing someone in the restroom, there are already existing laws to deal with it and otherwise it's just a waste of time and money to track down someone for using the "wrong" bathroom. Besides, having a trans male in the women's restroom is a lot more awkward than having a trans male in the men's bathroom.


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## Gregriii (May 22, 2016)

lencurryboy said:


> sadly not everyone is as chill abt it as u are. trans ppl get harrassed in bathrooms a lot.,



But how do they know they're trans?


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## tumut (May 22, 2016)

Trans ppl are oppressing us

- - - Post Merge - - -

its like 911 all over again


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## Red Cat (May 22, 2016)

Gregriii said:


> But how do they know they're trans?



If they are using the restroom normally, they are probably trans. If they are looking around at people, they are probably perverts. Get back to me if you ever run into a trans pervert.


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## Wolfycheeks (May 22, 2016)

Gregriii said:


> But how do they know they're trans?



Well, as you might've seen, nowadays trans doesn't mean female to male or male to female anymore, or dressing in girls or guys clothes, no, there's actually people who call themselves female to male and wear dresses, like someone said before this. So that's probably why they're getting harassed. (This is why you shouldn't whine if you get harassed and dress like a girl when you're claiming to be a trans guy, ofcourse men are gonna perv on you in the bathroom, like wth)

Normal trans people don't have these issues, if you try really hard to pass then everything should be fine.


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## boujee (May 22, 2016)

Gregriii said:


> But how do they know they're trans?




The odd looking individual that you keep staring at


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## Red Cat (May 22, 2016)

Dixx said:


> Trans ppl are oppressing us
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> its like 911 all over again



Trans person using the restroom of their choice = flying planes into buildings killing thousands of people. We need more people like you to tell it like it is.


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## Cailey (May 22, 2016)

doesn't matter I guess, I rarely even like to use public restrooms for sanitary reasons anyway lmao.


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## tumut (May 22, 2016)

Red Cat said:


> Trans person using the restroom of their choice = flying planes into buildings killing thousands of people. We need more people like you to tell it like it is.


Pleaze stop antagonizing me keep this thread kawaii and civil thanks


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## Aali (May 22, 2016)

People are afraid of pervs in unisex bathrooms

...Gays and Lesbians (as well as Bis) can be pervs too

no one is safe dun dun dun


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## seliph (May 22, 2016)

Wolfycheeks said:


> This is why you shouldn't whine if you get harassed and dress like a girl when you're claiming to be a trans guy, ofcourse men are gonna perv on you in the bathroom, like wth



I don't even have words for how nasty this comment is??? And to equate being upset about being harassed to whining?????? What is the matter with you


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## Gregriii (May 22, 2016)

Not round 2 please thanks xoxo


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## Red Cat (May 22, 2016)

Gregriii said:


> Not round 2 please thanks xoxo



With a thread like this, it's a matter of when, not if it combusts in flames.


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## ZekkoXCX (May 22, 2016)

Smells like this is getting closed soon 


I dont really care. They are bathrooms and thats it. Nothing special


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