# do you consider yourself a feminist?



## nintendoanna (Oct 15, 2016)

i'm all for equality and such but whenever i see a certain buzzfeed video or any video of a feminist tbh i cringe so bad i honestly don't know whats right or wrong in that community so i try to stay out of it as much as possible. another thing i noticed is literally no one seems to agree like there's people who say clothes don't have genders but there's people who are genderfluid who say they like dressing like either genders and i dont understand at all???????? idk man hopefully this makes sense and i dont start a big argument lol i'm just interested in peoples opinions
also i literally didn't even answer my own question but anyways


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## Samansu (Oct 15, 2016)

I am a feminist in its truest and simplest definition. I believe in total equality of the sexes. That mean that we should be equal in regards to advantages (equal pay) and disadvantages (being drafted into the army). I can't speak for others, but that is my stance! Everyone can do whatever they want as long as we have equality and the options are open to everyone! ^-^


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## Bunnilla (Oct 15, 2016)

All the feminist videos I have seen are cringe tbh


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## Ezpiti (Oct 15, 2016)

I think the definition have been so, so destroyed by extremists, manhaters, etc. I just cant say that I am.
But I do believe in the same thing as Samansu above me, I do believe that whatever humanity throws at you, both genders shall take the hit or get the chance to experience.

Another thing that makes me not be a feminist is probably that I feel like the wage gap is more of who got the job or who is actually looking for the job than the pay? ... And on that topic instead make these jobs more attractive to everyone.

I hope this does not end up a storm, it is a very sensitive subject after all, especially when people cannot agree or disagree in a respectful way on how others feel about something...


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## Worldsvamp (Oct 15, 2016)

im an egalitarian, not a feminist.

feminism has been ruined by its followers.


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## piichinu (Oct 15, 2016)

ya im a feminist i dont mind if the image is "ruined" by extremists cuz im not a weak ho

like...muslims aren't being like "ya im monoallahistic muhammadist cos those terrorists sure do make us look bad"

tbh feminism is feminism dont see why the fact that its image has been """tainted""" by radfems is a reason to be reluctant to identify with it. just explain yourself and if people dont care to listen to you then bye


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## AnimalCrossingPerson (Oct 15, 2016)

I am male and actively dislike certain BuzzFeed videos.


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## moonford (Oct 15, 2016)

I'm a feminist, I believe in equality for everyone.

Radical feminists bug me though...they make us real feminists look bad and mix up the two with each other.


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## vel (Oct 15, 2016)

let's hope this doesn't get locked, because people decide to be very argumentative. last time a post like this was created a bunch of **** flew up. so let's keep this extremely civil y'all.

yes, i'm a feminist. some people believe feminists hate men, but we just wanted make sure we see a future where women are treated with the same respect as men, both intellectually and socially. we also embrace the belief that everyone should be treated equally, no matter your sexual orientation, skin color, etc. with that, we fight for everyone's equal rights, and fight the general message that the biology of your body should _not_ determine whether you should be treated differently. 

i would also like to point out, men can be feminists too! although the name falsely implies only women can be feminists, men can be one as well. us feminists not only advocate our gender, but the male one as well, and whatever else one may identify as. again, our belief and principle is every person, no matter skin color, sexual orientation, life style, race, or religion, and more, should have the same access to every liberty and civil rights no matter who you are.


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## Samansu (Oct 15, 2016)

vel said:


> let's hope this doesn't get locked, because people decide to be very argumentative. last time a post like this was created a bunch of **** flew up. so let's keep this extremely civil y'all.
> 
> yes, i'm a feminist. some people believe feminists hate men, but we just wanted make sure we see a future where women are treated with the same respect as men, both intellectually and socially. we also embrace the belief that everyone should be treated equally, no matter your sexual orientation, skin color, etc. with that, we fight for everyone's equal rights, and fight the general message that the biology of your body should _not_ determine whether you should be treated differently.
> 
> i would also like to point out, men can be feminists too! although the name falsely implies only women can be feminists, men can be one as well. us feminists not only advocate our gender, but the male one as well, and whatever else one may identify as. again, our belief and principle is every person, no matter skin color, sexual orientation, life style, race, or religion, and more, should have the same access to every liberty and civil rights no matter who you are.



Preach it Vel! ^-^ I agree 110%! Thanks for putting it so well! <3


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## axo (Oct 15, 2016)

I'm not sure if I can call myself a feminist because of how distorted "feminism" has become. I believe in equality for all sexes, genders, races, and sexualities. I don't hate men, I don't hate any races or anything like that, I won't tell anyone to "check their privilege." I'm pretty sure that makes me a feminist, but I've had people tell me I can't be a feminist because my family is fairly well-off. (That's like saying white people can't support black lives matter???)


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## Samansu (Oct 15, 2016)

chees4mees said:


> I'm not sure if I can call myself a feminist because of how distorted "feminism" has become. I believe in equality for all sexes, genders, races, and sexualities. I don't hate men, I don't hate any races or anything like that, I won't tell anyone to "check their privilege." I'm pretty sure that makes me a feminist, but I've had people tell me I can't be a feminist because my family is fairly well-off. (That's like saying white people can't support black lives matter???)



I would say that makes you a feminist, and forget anyone who says you can't be something because you are well-off or a different race. That is part of the problem! :C I will gladly consider you an ally regardless of your family's income level! ^-^


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## DoctorGallifrey (Oct 15, 2016)

I believe and support the equality of the sexes. So yes, I'm a feminist


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## Nightmares (Oct 15, 2016)

Umm wtf why is "no" the highest option  ??


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## piichinu (Oct 15, 2016)

Nightmares said:


> Umm wtf why is "no" the highest option  ??



probably trying to teach radfems a lesson and punishing them by not identifying as a feminist when in actuality they dont care


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## N a t (Oct 15, 2016)

I'm not really sure, equal rights is cool and all, and everyone should have equal rights. But I don't feel that I have ever been treated unfairly just because I'm a girl? I think that being a woman can have its perks, but it also has down sides. This also applies to men. I kinda think we're equal in THAT right. 

As for what I think of feminists? I think it's great that you fight for what you believe in (everybody should be allowed to do so within reason, as in, don't be a terrorist), but unfortunately some women who call themselves feminists have made up literally one of the worst reputations and stereotypes for feminists as a whole. And I actually feel bad, that decent feminists are given such a bad wrap, because of some bad eggs that act like total loons. I really don't think many people know what feminism is about anymore, because of those bad eggs. I am one of those people that doesn't really know all about what feminism is, because all I see are videos of women acting like lunatics because a man looked directly at them, and all I see are jokes being made about these women. I really hope that you guys can save yourselves after what's happened to your cause, and prove that you're not what the majority sees you as, because I honestly believe that you deserve a break after all of the hate being spread around.


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## Legendary Sandwich (Oct 15, 2016)

Proud Egalitarian, not a Feminist and will never be one.


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## maekii (Oct 15, 2016)

I'm an egalitarian, not a feminist at all. I actually consider myself as an anti-feminist/anti-sjw/etc.


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## Kurashiki (Oct 15, 2016)

yeah, of course. imo feminism = equality for people of all genders


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## Licorice (Oct 15, 2016)

I'm not a feminist because I don't think that feminism is needed in my country. Women have equal rights here. I think that the term feminist in itself kinda comes off as sexist. I'm all for equality but modern feminism is filled with whiny bitter women and it's a joke. A big joke.


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## nintendoanna (Oct 15, 2016)

really confused about the whole egalitarian  thing bc it's the same thing as feminism


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## sylviabee (Oct 15, 2016)

Yeah, I'd consider myself a feminist. All the trash talk about women is disturbing.


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## vel (Oct 15, 2016)

nintendoanna said:


> really confused about the whole egalatarian thing bc it's the same thing as feminism



egalitarianism is simply a philosophy people live by. it isn't necessarily an active movement. feminism, however, is an active movement. egalitarianism also encompasses feminism. it is a separate name, so people don't receive backlash if they were a feminist. it's also important to note, even if everyone is treated the same, they might have different needs. it's like having a feast, and everyone gets meat, but one person is vegetarian so they can't eat. that's an important difference in feminism and egalitarianism as well.


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## Mega_Cabbage (Oct 15, 2016)

I don't think I am. I haven't felt oppressed as a female. I'd also rather not be drafted into the army against my will if women were made "equal" to men.


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## Legendary Sandwich (Oct 15, 2016)

nintendoanna said:


> really confused about the whole egalatarian thing bc it's the same thing as feminism





vel said:


> egalitarianism is simply a philosophy people live by. it isn't necessarily an active movement. feminism, however, is an active movement. egalitarianism also encompasses feminism. it is a separate name, so people don't receive backlash if they were a feminist. it's also important to note, even if everyone is treated the same, they might have different needs. it's like having a feast, and everyone gets meat, but one person is vegetarian so they can't eat. that's an important difference in feminism and egalitarianism as well.



Allow me, as an Egalitarian, to explain.

Vel is correct in saying Egalitarianism is a philosophy more than a social movement, however there have been cases of Egalitarianism gaining political traction. The earliest being in I believe medieval China, and it was an Economic Egalitarian movement.

We do NOT encompass Feminism. If anything, Feminism encompasses many principles of Egalitarianism, many of our goals are the same after all.

Now here's where people get confused about us. We believe in treating everyone equal, as a fellow human being that deserves respect. We all bleed red after all, why should we judge someone based on what they are rather than WHO they are?

But the way we go about this is called *"Equality of Opportunity"*, which means we want everyone to have the same opportunity others have to succeed, this includes those with needs a person may have on an individual level.

What most people misunderstand when we say "we just want everyone to be equal", is that they think we're talking about *"Equality of Outcome"*, which means everyone should have the same outcome despite individual needs - this is NOT Egalitarian philosophy.

I hope that helps.

*Edit:* _I'm going to borrow Vel's quote once more since I missed it, and no this isn't a personal attack, this is just a perfect example of what I just talked about. I'm saying this in advance, not necessarily to anyone in particular._



vel said:


> it's like having a feast, and everyone gets meat, but one person is vegetarian so they can't eat. that's an important difference in feminism and egalitarianism as well.



it's like having a feast, and everyone gets meat, but one person is vegetarian so they can't eat.

This right here is *"Equality of Outcome"*, everyone gets meat, including the vegetarian. This is what most people misunderstand about our philosophy.

In a more Egalitarian Version, the vegetarian gets invited to the feast despite there being a majority of meat eaters. This is that good ol' *"Equality of Opportunity"* we strive for. But instead of being forced a hunk of meat, the chefs prepared a serving of vegetables just in case a vegetarian showed up.

That's the world we strive for.


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## SaltedKaramel (Oct 15, 2016)

Legendary Sandwich said:


> Proud Egalitarian, not a Feminist and will never be one.



You certain live you to your name dear Legendary Sandwich! As a female, I don't consider myself a feminist. But at the same time Im all for equal rights. I'm an egalitarian! Let's be honest here guys, feminists in general have the worst reputations thanks to extremists, manhaters etc...And whether you like it or not, but the public cares about reputations and image. If you have a bad image, people don't want to be apart of that.


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## nintendoanna (Oct 15, 2016)

Legendary Sandwich said:


> Allow me, as an Egalitarian, to explain.
> 
> Vel is correct in saying Egalitarianism is a philosophy more than a social movement, however there have been cases of Egalitarianism gaining political traction. The earliest being in I believe medieval China, and it was an Economic Egalitarian movement.
> 
> ...



yeah it was helpful! but im not sure what exactly you mean when you say individual needs


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## SaltedKaramel (Oct 15, 2016)

Oh and the unequal wages thing, is dumb. They need to stop using that in all their agruements.


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## Legendary Sandwich (Oct 15, 2016)

nintendoanna said:


> yeah it was helpful! but im not sure what exactly you mean when you say individual needs



This picture here explains it far more than my words could easily.


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## Bowie (Oct 15, 2016)

No. I think everyone should have the whole "women deserve rights too!" mindset, but feminism as a culture would be laughable if they weren't being serious, so I don't associate myself with it. I'm for equal rights, and that's about it. Don't need to label it. It's called common sense.


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## Hopeless Opus (Oct 15, 2016)

no but seriously. i guess i'm a feminist because i want women to have equal rights but i am not like the mental child depicted above in the video.


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## Greggy (Oct 15, 2016)

Modern feminism is bullcrap.
I'm in favor for men and women to be equals and break gender norms, but the likes of Tumblr and Buzzfeed's brand of feminism makes me want to punch a wall. Modern Feminism be like, "break gender norms!" and when a man starts to wear a skirt, they already assume he is genderfluid or trans. It's bullcrap. I'm also "transphobic" because I see trans men and women AS trans men and women, not real men and women. I'm also not interested in girl power and such because I believe girls can already do the same things as men can do if they try. So no, I'm not a feminist.


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## mintellect (Oct 15, 2016)

I suppose so. I certainly want women to have equal rights, but today's definition of feminism is so twisted and many "feminists" have the "die male cishet scum" mentality and it's just. So stupid. Men have many problems as well. They're often overlooked when it comes to things such as being victims of eating disorders and rape. 
In the end, we really should be fighting for the equal rights of both genders.


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## That Zephyr Guy (Oct 15, 2016)

Ye sure.

It has a bad rep - but I think if you let something like that stop you from being a decent human being, then that says quite a bit about yourself. Most people misunderstand the term anyway, so it's not like it matters.

It just very much bugs me when people would rather make generalizations of what feminism is based off a few videos they've seen on the internet to avoid considering another person's opinion, but whatever, by this point I'm used to it.


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## demoness (Oct 16, 2016)

i do because i'm not intimidated by alt-right shills or anti-progressive crying

also no academic takes anti-feminists seriously because they're constant footnotes in history.  it's not unusual for privileged people to have an aneurysm every time they realize they're losing control after a social shift


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## CatsAreSuperCool (Oct 16, 2016)

I consider myself a feminist. I still make those jokes like, "did u just assume my gender?" but when it comes down to it, it's seriously annoying to hear people say guys are better than girls or vice versa. Sure, there are some things that genetically distinguish guys and girls (body structure, vocal chords, etc.) but nothing that should make one of the genders discriminated toward. We deserve to be treated equally, because at the end of the day, there's not much different about the two genders.


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## Xerolin (Oct 16, 2016)

no but i still believe everyone should have equal rights


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## Red Cat (Oct 16, 2016)

I said yes because I'm automatically more feminist than about 40% of Americans because I don't support Trump.


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## That Zephyr Guy (Oct 16, 2016)

Red Cat said:


> I said yes because I'm automatically more feminist than about 40% of Americans because I don't support Trump.


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## Rasha (Oct 16, 2016)

me? I dunno.
I just hope people won't mistake feminists with feminazis. feminists seek equality while feminazis seek special treatment.


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## blossum (Oct 16, 2016)

This guy in my class during a feminist discussion was like, "I don't think men can be feminists..I don't see the point.. it's kind of... weird." This is coming from the same guy who didn't understand why BLM was a movement.
My eyes rolled back so far into my skull.

Yes, though. It's a shame people don't want to associate themselves with the word because of the extremists and misassumptions. Also, when girls put down feminism and so to make themselves look better in front of males.. honestly. 
Boy, I die.


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## Twisterheart (Oct 16, 2016)

No.


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## KaydeeKrunk (Oct 16, 2016)

I am a feminist, but I am not a feminazi. There's a big difference.


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## LinkToTheWorld (Oct 16, 2016)

The word feminist has become a bit of a dirty word for most people I think,thanks very much to the extremists. Some people now associate a feminist as somebody who hates men, doesn't care about their rights and believe women should have more rights than anybody. I consider myself a feminist in the true sense of the word, not the ridiculous way it gets portrayed sometimes. I believe in equal rights and pay for both women and men. Equality and fairness is what feminism is to me


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## littletwinclouds (Oct 16, 2016)




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## visibleghost (Oct 16, 2016)

yes
ppl often say stuff abt radfems when they say why they arent feminists n i think that's a bit sucky (bc usually ppl do actually think that people should have equal rights no matter sex or gender)

feminism isnt man hating lol. i just stay away from radfems because so!!!! many!! are terfs and twerfs and basically think trans women are men invading spaces for women. and i've been told i'm sexist for being a trans afab because apparently it's sexist to them to "not want to b female!!!1!!". yeah no thx. radfems suck


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## Tao (Oct 16, 2016)

I wouldn't refer to myself as a feminist. 

There's too many negative connections to the word, so describing yourself as one whilst insisting "but the real definition is this!" just seems anti productive since a lot of people just don't care what it's 'supposed' to mean, they just know about the large group of vile morons who get overly offended by side boob and think all men should be castrated.

I believe in equal rights, I just don't believe in having to prove that I'm not a overly sensitive moron for 10 minutes at the start of a conversation.




badgrl2 said:


> ya im a feminist i dont mind if the image is "ruined" by extremists cuz im not a weak ho
> 
> like...muslims aren't being like "ya im monoallahistic muhammadist cos those terrorists sure do make us look bad"
> 
> tbh feminism is feminism dont see why the fact that its image has been """tainted""" by radfems is a reason to be reluctant to identify with it. just explain yourself and if people dont care to listen to you then bye



I think a major difference there is that Islam is a religion and feminism is a social movement.

Unless feminists follow the word of the holy deity Feminina and believe that they'll ascend to an afterlife with equal opportunities between both genders when they die, then you can't compare Muslims choosing to still follow Islam despite the negative association and people refusing to identify themselves as a feminist because of the large group of morons that speak for it.


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## Alienfish (Oct 16, 2016)

KaydeeKrunk said:


> I am a feminist, but I am not a feminazi. There's a big difference.



Yeah same. Also equality between the sexes/genders should be obvious. Like I can't get how people think like "hurr durr you have vag...LESS MONEY".

Yes there are some biological differences that might apply to what work you get/have but tbh if you eg. work in an office and do the same thing anyways, that's just wrong. also ironically enough one of the worst workplaces for actual equality lol.


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## namiieco (Oct 16, 2016)

i dont really care
everyone should have equal rights, end of story


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## Soot Sprite (Oct 16, 2016)

Worldsvamp said:


> im an egalitarian, not a feminist.
> 
> feminism has been ruined by its followers.



I agree with this, this is my mentality about feminism too. Everyone should be treated equally (and that includes helping the dudes out with the problems they have as well), but feminist extremists have turned it into bra burning and man hating. Most of the people (not trying to offend anyone by saying this) that hate on feminism don't know what it's really about. They see the radials and misinterpret it as something that it's not. 

You may not agree with the way some feminists handle things, and honestly I don't either. But to say you don't support equal rights for everyone; well that says a lot about _you_ doesn't it?


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## nintendofan85 (Oct 16, 2016)

I'm male and would consider myself a feminist.


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## MozzarellaSticks (Oct 16, 2016)

The most problematic thing about this site is the unwillingness to differ. Anytime tow people disagree a bunch of people call for a thread to be locked, and it escalates to petty name calling. You guys have to take a debate class or something. Learn to respect, and listen to, opposing opinions. Life is a series of compromises.

- - - Post Merge - - -

All that said, I am 100% a feminist.


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## N e s s (Oct 16, 2016)

Yes, I am a feminist.


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## Fleshy (Oct 17, 2016)

I don't consider myself a feminist. 

I'm 100% for equality of the sexes, in every aspect, however, I disagree with such a massive proportion of modern-day/third wave feminism that I don't see it fitting to associate myself with that movement when, in general, my thoughts don't align with said movement. "If you're for equality, you're a feminist" I don't agree with this, feminism, especially the vocal majority of modern feminism, is not to do with equality at all, it's a rather corrupt social movement that you can choose to align with, or not, and I choose not to.

I applaud all that  feminism has done for women, in the past, and present. There was an absolute need for feminism _"the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes."_ in the west in the past, and still currently in a lot of countries. However, I don't believe the type of feminism that gains the most traction nowadays is helping anyone at all, it's not helping women, it's not helping men, it's not achieving "equality", it's creating issues where there are none.


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## littletwinclouds (Oct 17, 2016)

Fleshy said:


> I applaud all that  feminism has done for women, in the past, and present. There was an absolute need for feminism _"the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes."_ in the west in the past, and still currently in a lot of countries. However, I don't believe the type of feminism that gains the most traction nowadays is helping anyone at all, it's not helping women, it's not helping men, it's not achieving "equality", it's creating issues where there are none.



tbh i feel like the early feminists would be absolutely appalled at what the modern "movement" has become.
the suffragettes didn't fight for this.


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## Pearls (Oct 17, 2016)

Yeah I guess. I believe in gender equality


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## KarlaKGB (Oct 17, 2016)

im a sexist, equal rights for all sexes xD


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## Barbara (Oct 17, 2016)

I don't see myself as a feminist, purely because there is gender equality where I live, and there is nothing to protest against unless you're a real nitpicker. I am for female equality, though (who isn't in the western world nowadays?), and feel so sorry for women who live in countries where they are treated really badly and have very little rights.


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## Becca617 (Oct 17, 2016)

Yes, I consider myself a feminist. I am all for equality of both sexes, but I cringe at Buzzfeed feminist videos and what people look at as feminism today, specifically people who think that feminists hate men.


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## ams (Oct 17, 2016)

I'd say yes but I'm pretty annoyed by the internet meme brand of feminism. Just like I'm liberal and pretty embarrassed by SJWs.


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## Alex518 (Oct 17, 2016)

"no i'm not a feminist but i support equality for both genders" so... you're a feminist.
stop acting like it's a dirty word, it's not. yeah there are people out there that take it to an extreme level that sometimes hurts my head and is way way out there (especially on tumblr... i try not to go too deep on that website anymore) but in the fine print definition of the word that's what you are.


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## Fleshy (Oct 17, 2016)

Alex518 said:


> "no i'm not a feminist but i support equality for both genders" so... you're a feminist.
> /snip



No, I'm completely for equality in every way and I'm *not* a feminist, nor do I appreciate being told what I am.

When it comes to a social movement such as feminism, it is represented by the vocal majority (that being third-wave feminism and suchlike, based on what i see daily). I honestly don't see how you can identify as/consider yourself a feminist yet separate yourself from the main part of modern-day feminism. To me that's like saying "I'm a christian, but I don't believe that Jesus died on the cross or anything, I don't believe in all that in the bible, nor do i follow Christianity at all or go to church, but I'm still a Christian !!!"

I know feminism isn't comparable to a religion, I'm just tired of this analogy of feminism = equality, just based on the definition, even though almost everything about recent feminism shows differently.


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## visibleghost (Oct 18, 2016)

Fleshy said:


> I don't consider myself a feminist.
> 
> I'm 100% for equality of the sexes, in every aspect, however, I disagree with such a massive proportion of modern-day/third wave feminism that I don't see it fitting to associate myself with that movement when, in general, my thoughts don't align with said movement. "If you're for equality, you're a feminist" I don't agree with this, feminism, especially the vocal majority of modern feminism, is not to do with equality at all, it's a rather corrupt social movement that you can choose to align with, or not, and I choose not to.
> 
> I applaud all that  feminism has done for women, in the past, and present. There was an absolute need for feminism _"the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes."_ in the west in the past, and still currently in a lot of countries. However, I don't believe the type of feminism that gains the most traction nowadays is helping anyone at all, it's not helping women, it's not helping men, it's not achieving "equality", it's creating issues where there are none.


what abt it is it that makes u not want to b part of th movement?? :0


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## LinkToTheWorld (Oct 18, 2016)

I consider myself a feminist and detach myself from the vocal extremists. Everybody I know understands what the words feminist means, the only people I've come across who misuse it are those on the internet or ocassionally, on the news. 
Feminism does mean equality. Just because some people misuse it doesn't take away from that. Just as extremists in religion don't take away from those who follow that religion. They don't stop calling themselves Christian/Muslim just because of the extremists we hear about. 

As for feminism being a dirty word - well it is for many people. Again, because of the extremists. It's a shame really, many people don't want to associate theirselves with that word.


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## Fleshy (Oct 18, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> what abt it is it that makes u not want to b part of th movement?? :0



I think modern day feminism as a whole is very flawed. I don't want to be a part of a movement that I see as flawed, I don't think it's helping anyone, it's pretty toxic and is becoming nothing more than complaining and creating issues where there are none.

The constant complaining about trivial things, the vocalisation of these trivial issues over actual issues; like, I see people complaining about nipples on instagram, sexy video game characters, gender roles, "man-spreading", the wage gap, camera angles, the "patriarchy", and so on, on the daily but I never seem to see people bring attention to issues such as FGM for example, and have often seen self-proclaimed feminists laugh in the face of mens issues, I think that's common part of third-wave/internet feminism, which is feminism. There's not really any point in listing the issues I have with feminism, I think a lot it is pretty clear, whether people who call themselves feminists distance themselves from the "extremist" parts of the movement they don't like or not, it's hard to deny that that is what people think of when they hear the word "feminism", that is feminism today in most places, sadly.

When it was needed here, feminists would be out protesting actual issues of their time, take the suffragettes for example, now people just seem to say "I believe in equality, I'm a feminist" without ever actually _doing anything_, and I don't see the point, I don't see the need. You can be for equality without associating yourself with a corrupt movement. The whole MRA vs feminist vs anti feminist drama is so trivial, all of it really is just so trivial and I'm tired with it, I don't want to be a part of it.

- - - Post Merge - - -



That Zephyr Guy said:


> Ye sure.
> 
> It has a bad rep - but I think if you let something like that stop you from being a decent human being, then that says quite a bit about yourself. /snip



Are you saying that if someone doesn't label themselves as a feminist then they aren't a decent human being.....?


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## PlasticPinkPiggy (Oct 18, 2016)

I believe in equality for all which means I'm a feminist.

I don't believe in "buzzfeed-feminism"


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## f11 (Oct 18, 2016)

Nah feminism now represents something I'm not apart of.


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## Ezpiti (Oct 18, 2016)

> Are you saying that if someone doesn't label themselves as a feminist then they aren't a decent human being.....?



I agree here (and with how you feel about everything else), theres no price or cookie being given to decent people, it should be common courtesy. And to be honest it feels like being a decent human has a whole other point than a movement has. A decent human is nice, shows respect and knows when a no is a no, etc. a movement strive for a change, they go out of their way to make sure it is being changed and may as well not be decent humans as they may be violent both verbally and physically.


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## pocketdatcrossing (Oct 21, 2016)

im a feminist 100%
egalitarians are rly manky tbh thats all i gotta say

- - - Post Merge - - -



Fleshy said:


> I don't consider myself a feminist.
> 
> I'm 100% for equality of the sexes, in every aspect, however, I disagree with such a massive proportion of modern-day/third wave feminism that I don't see it fitting to associate myself with that movement when, in general, my thoughts don't align with said movement. "If you're for equality, you're a feminist" I don't agree with this, feminism, especially the vocal majority of modern feminism, is not to do with equality at all, it's a rather corrupt social movement that you can choose to align with, or not, and I choose not to.
> 
> I applaud all that  feminism has done for women, in the past, and present. There was an absolute need for feminism _"the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes."_ in the west in the past, and still currently in a lot of countries. However, I don't believe the type of feminism that gains the most traction nowadays is helping anyone at all, it's not helping women, it's not helping men, it's not achieving "equality", it's creating issues where there are none.



what abt the major issue which is laws against abortion?? thats a rly huge issue many feminists are fighting against
also equal pay


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## Reindeer (Oct 21, 2016)

littletwinclouds said:


> tbh i feel like the early feminists would be absolutely appalled at what the modern "movement" has become.
> the suffragettes didn't fight for this.


doubt it

dont forget that in order to get the right to vote, feminists fought tooth and nail to first remove the fact they would be signed up for the draft once registered to vote, because they didnt want to be in the military (but men could be because theyre disposable LOL).
and once the black man got the vote, feminists decided to be sexist and racist entitled babies about it, whining about how they were more intelligent than the black man (because their skin was white, see) and thus more entitled to the right to vote.

modern-day feminism isnt that much different from feminism as it was when it first started out. its the same entitlement that drives them to actually fight for more inequality, but shoved in the direction of men. there are many issues men suffer from that are ignored because they are men, like domestic abuse, assault, suicide, etc. in the us, about half of rape victims are men, yet modern-day feminists (as well as anti-rape ads) will only focus on womens issues and how it affects women.
modern-day feminists are the kind of morons who will complain about a wage gap even when there provably is none. and those arent even the feminazis - those are just the "troo feminists!!1".
its a complete dismissal of logic and actual facts.

feminism, if it was ever a movement for equality (and it never was), has failed. it is and always has been a joke, a movement that doesnt work on facts but overexaggerated myths, and it only lulled idiots into supporting it with the sweet promises of it being a movement of equality.

i dont consider myself a feminist because im for equal rights for both genders, regardless of race and creed. feminism is and always has been a fight for superiority, and thus its not one i support.


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## Fleshy (Oct 21, 2016)

pocketdatcrossing said:


> im a feminist 100%
> egalitarians are rly manky tbh thats all i gotta say
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> ...



What about anti abortion laws? I know that's a very big issue, I'm completely pro choice, as are millions of people who are not feminists. Just because a corrupt _(imo)_ movement may be "fighting" for certain things, in the name of equality or whatever, that doesn't make the movement good as a whole, and feminism definitely isn't. 

In my opinion, laws such as this really shouldn't exist and need to be repelled, however, feminism isn't required for that to happen.

Equal pay exists, the wage gap isn't real.

- - - Post Merge - - -

You're not a decent human being if you're not a feminist, egalitarians are "manky", honestly this whole name-calling and ****ting on others just because you don't agree with their opinions culture present in feminism (and egalitarianism, MRActivism_(?)_, etc.) is saddening, this has what it's become, sure this is tame, but it goes so far sometimes and is part of the reason why I don't like to associate myself with any of these "movements".


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## Corrie (Oct 21, 2016)

Definitely no. I want equality for all. That's it. I don't want women to be on top like every feminist wants.


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## pawpatrolbab (Oct 21, 2016)

Fleshy said:


> What about anti abortion laws? I know that's a very big issue, I'm completely pro choice, as are millions of people who are not feminists. Just because a corrupt _(imo)_ movement may be "fighting" for certain things, in the name of equality or whatever, that doesn't make the movement good as a whole, and feminism definitely isn't.
> 
> In my opinion, laws such as this really shouldn't exist and need to be repelled, however, feminism isn't required for that to happen.
> 
> ...



LOOK AT MY BOY GO


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## moonford (Oct 21, 2016)

Dumb moment.


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## Celestefey (Oct 21, 2016)

Corrie said:


> Definitely no. I want equality for all. That's it. I don't want women to be on top like every feminist wants.





Well yeah but... Feminism is about equality though? So I don't understand what your point is, not to be condescending. I think just about everyone on here is complaining about some radical feminists and I get it, there are some terrible people out there and there are women out there who do believe they should be superior over men (but that's actually very few and far between). Vast majority of people who consider themselves to be feminist do want equality for all and that is the main point of the movement. Of course feminism has turned into a "dirty" word because of the unfortunate minority who ruin things for the vast majority who do genuinely care about gender inequality between males and females across the world. 

I know some people on here are evidently very against "feminism" but their whole perception on the issue is skewed. Yes, there is radical feminism and there are ****ty sides of feminism but that's arguably the case with any sort of belief, including religion and such. Just because you see a few ****ty extremists doesn't mean that EVERYONE genuinely thinks like that and believes that. People are putting forward arguments here based on a vocal minority, which seems flawed in itself because they are basing it off of misconceptions. Whilst the vocal minority may identify as feminist I personally believe the "feminism" they are promoting is not a kind of feminism we should aspire to and doesn't fit with the true definition of the word.


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## Nightmares (Oct 21, 2016)

Corrie said:


> Definitely no. I want equality for all. That's it. I don't want women to be on top like every feminist wants.



Do you even know the definition of a "feminist" what


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## Red Cat (Oct 21, 2016)

Corrie said:


> I don't want women to be on top like every feminist wants.



Be more careful about how you word things...


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## Believe (Oct 21, 2016)

Of course I am. Women deserve equal treatment period. 

People _*love*_ to think they're being super different and counter culture by saying they're not because of the how certain people in the group act. I personally think it's incredibly pretentious, selfish, and hurts the progression of females severely. So many people will actively say "I support equality but not feminism!" but opinions like that are exactly the type of censorship that steers women away from fighting for their equality because of the fear that they themselves will come off too radical. Whether you mean it that way or not, it shows young girls that fighting for equality makes you look crazy. 

I think that a unified solidarity is what's really needed in order to make any real change, not some stupid **** like "nah you guys are cringey so I'm not going to support you even though I agree with what youre trying to do"

Im sorry if any of this sounds directed at any person specifically. I'm really not trying to pick a fight with anyone on here. The things I mentioned are things a LOT of people say and I get pretty heated about this topic so ye.


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## Lethalia (Oct 21, 2016)

Oh God, no. Never. I live in the U.S where feminism is radical and unnecessary. Hate it.


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## vel (Oct 21, 2016)

There is one thing I don't understand; this is not aimed towards anyone at all. But can't someone be a feminist and not tell anyone? Like, unless someone tells every single they come across they're feminist or put it online in every single forum, being a feminist shouldn't harm anyone. Although the word "feminist" is heavily tinted, I think it's easy to make a difference from being that radical feminist and someone who really wants equality. I don't know, I just feel kinda iffy about the whole "feminism is tinted and I never want to be a feminist" because if you don't share that you're feminist, or you would advocate it correctly, there shouldn't be reason not the be a feminist other than the fact you don't want to be. 

I'm trying not to shove the idea of being a feminist down anyone's throat. I understand if one would rather be a egalitarian or none at all. But I think the fact that some/most (I don't see it as most, I don't see a ton of radical feminists) people are heavily radical shouldn't affect what you want to be. Those are just my thoughts.

- - - Post Merge - - -

Adding on, if someone ever shames you for being a feminist, just peacefully settle the argument. There's nothing that shows maturity more than ending an argument before it becomes serious. And that's what feminism needs right now; people that are mature enough to advocate what they believe in without shoving it down people's throats, or adding onto the radical feminist image. Just my two cents.


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## mogyay (Oct 21, 2016)

i consider myself a feminist. a lot of people on this thread remind me of when i didn't want to call myself an athiest because they were all annoying and obnoxious, it didn't matter because i still was one, i believe in equal rights therefore i am a feminist


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## Brooke_the_Phoenix (Oct 22, 2016)

No, I'm not.  The main reason is that I don't like labels, specifically labels relating to an ideaology (though I do still hesitate to call myself an atheist sometimes, even though it isn't an ideology).  Also, I do tend to disagree with a lot of things that many feminists say.  I am all for equality of the sexes (and by that I mean equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome), but I honestly believe that, for the most part, we've reached that goal in the west.  Legally, men and women are equal in the west (and yes, it is illegal to pay women less simply for being women, and the pay gap is actually because of personal job choice, not discrimination).  Also, a lot of things feminists bring up aren't gendered issues.  As a female, I have _never_, in my life, been discriminated against because of my gender, or at all really.  I know anecdotal evidence isn't really worth that much, but I thought I should still point it out.

I don't call myself an anti-feminist or an MRA either though.  I don't have a problem with feminism as a whole, or even feminists.  I've got friends who are feminists who are really nice, and I've been trying lately not to lump all feminists together.  Like people on this thread have already said, not all feminists are man-haters or radicals, and I do agree with feminism in its simplest form.   I just have problems with a lot of things that _most_ feminists bring up, and I don't feel comfortable being associated with the movement.


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## Elov (Oct 22, 2016)

I believe everyone should be treated equally and be given equal rights and equal opportunity and not be discriminated against. That being said I do not consider myself a feminist. I don't see like labeling myself based on whatever beliefs I may have, nor do I see a point in doing so.


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## Celestefey (Oct 22, 2016)

vel said:


> Adding on, if someone ever shames you for being a feminist, just peacefully settle the argument. There's nothing that shows maturity more than ending an argument before it becomes serious. And that's what feminism needs right now; people that are mature enough to advocate what they believe in without shoving it down people's throats, or adding onto the radical feminist image. Just my two cents.



Exactly. I peacefully respect the fact that not everyone may agree with feminism or may not believe in it, and they're entitled to that opinion, but likewise, it can be frustrating to see people on here saying things like "Feminists just want to be superior to males", when that is largely not the case at all, and they therefore disagree with feminism because of reasons like this. Perhaps there are a few amount of feminists who do genuinely feel that way, but at the same time, you are basing your opinion on the actions of a very small group of people who do not represent the majority of feminists. So when people do that their argument is flawed because it's essentially based on complete misconceptions.


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## Chris (Oct 22, 2016)

I am in support of feminism but I don't identify as a feminist. While I won't get into details about why, I'd feel like a liar if I claimed otherwise.


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## earthquake (Oct 22, 2016)

Worldsvamp said:


> im an egalitarian, not a feminist.
> 
> feminism has been ruined by its followers.



lmao what does this mean? feminism isnt a campaign or a person that can have followers. its literally a civil rights movement. 
if you want equality, youre a feminist.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Tina said:


> I am in support of feminism but I don't identify as a feminist. While I won't get into details about why, I'd feel like a liar if I claimed otherwise.



may i ask what you define as the difference between supporting feminism and being a feminist? im genuinely curious, and interested in learning something new.


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## Chris (Oct 22, 2016)

earthquake said:


> may i ask what you define as the difference between supporting feminism and being a feminist? im genuinely curious, and interested in learning something new.



All I mean by saying I support it is that I agree with it. 

I consider a feminist as someone who is actively for feminism and involved in it, promotes it, and doesn't engage in activities that would be seen as hypocritical for a feminist.


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## earthquake (Oct 22, 2016)

Tina said:


> All I mean by saying I support it is that I agree with it.
> 
> I consider a feminist as someone who is actively for feminism and involved in it, promotes it, and doesn't engage in activities that would be seen as hypocritical for a feminist.



i suppose that sort of makes sense, but you can be a feminist without being a "man hater" or wearing feminist tee shirts and screaming about how bad the patriarchy is 24/7.
ik a lot of people think if ur feminist, you cant dress up or wear a lot of makeup or care what guys think, but feminism is quite literally just believing that women deserve the same rights as men have. 
theres no one way to be a feminist!


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## Chris (Oct 22, 2016)

earthquake said:


> i suppose that sort of makes sense, but you can be a feminist without being a "man hater" or wearing feminist tee shirts and screaming about how bad the patriarchy is 24/7.
> ik a lot of people think if ur feminist, you cant dress up or wear a lot of makeup or care what guys think, but feminism is quite literally just believing that women deserve the same rights as men have.
> theres no one way to be a feminist!



Don't get me wrong, I know all of that. Which is why I say I agree with feminism. But I also know I definitely don't make the cut to be a feminist for other reasons that are a little more complicated and that I won't go into here.


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## pocketdatcrossing (Oct 22, 2016)

Whiteflamingo said:


> You're the type of person who makes us look bad.
> 
> The wage gap is non existent in most developed countries, e.g Britain, USA, Ireland...
> So stop spewing those lies.



i literally live in ireland and its very much a thing here but ok lmao


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## moonford (Oct 22, 2016)

pocketdatcrossing said:


> i literally live in ireland and its very much a thing here but ok lmao



Evidence? I live here too BTW.


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## moonford (Oct 22, 2016)

14.4% wage gap in Ireland. =/

Sigh.


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## lostineverfreeforest (Oct 22, 2016)

Prefer not to associate with the feminist movement due to fanatics hijacking it but agree with what it stands for in its basic, traditional sense. Don't believe it serves much of a purpose in the West these days however. That's all I'm gonna say about it.


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## mogyay (Oct 23, 2016)

what's with ppl saying 'oh it's not relevant over here' lmao, if u do a tiny bit of research you'll realise it's still so relevant over here (oh and the wage gap is real, it's called the glass ceiling soz), not to mention the ways in which men are disadvantaged in society too. furthermore u realise u can be a feminist in promoting WORLD equality. until women all over the world are equal to men i will continue to call myself a feminist, just cause it's not as relevant here as it is in other countries doesn't mean i should drop the meaning behind calling myself a feminist


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## Ghost Soda (Oct 23, 2016)

Absolutely, all this "i'm an egalitarian!" stuff is crap. All movements have their loud extremists, but it doesn't change what the movement is about.


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## That Zephyr Guy (Oct 24, 2016)

Ghost Soda said:


> Absolutely, all this "i'm an egalitarian!" stuff is crap. All movements have their loud extremists, but it doesn't change what the movement is about.



The whole "I'm an egalitarian" stuff is more redundant than anything. It only serves to create a chain of events that slows overall progress:

>Feminism is a thing
>People begin to associate it with radicals
>"I'm not going to associate with THAT word anymore. I'm going to use THIS word."
>People spend more time arguing over semantics than doing anything useful
>People begin to gradually use the new word.
>Radicals latch onto the new word too.
>"I'm not going to associate with THAT OTHER word anymore. I'm going to..."
>Repeat


Just stick to the original term and exclude radicals like we do with literally everything else. 
We didn't rename Christianity because of Westboro.


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## blossum (Oct 24, 2016)

I think people can be free to say that they are "egalitarian", since it technically exists too.. but their values are.. literally shared with feminism, and they only prefer it simply because of the radical undertones. I remember seeing a thread about it and it enlightened me:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/35pu2o

"Egalitarianism is a toothless philosophy when it comes to exacting any real change.
It sounds really good to say you want equal rights for everyone. I mean, who doesn't? But you have to be more specific. How is inequality manifested in our society? What are the sources of that inequality? What, specifically, can we do to change those things? How are we going to accomplish that?
It's all well and good to say you want everyone to be equal, but until you isolate specific problems and address them, you're not going to get much accomplished. Feminists have isolated the specific problem of female oppression under a patriarchal society, and they believe working to end that oppression will lead to equality of the sexes. You may agree or disagree with that, but that's what feminism is.
I mean, by "egalitarian" logic, we shouldn't have any movements that aim to help one specific social group. No black rights movements, no LGBT movements, no advocates for children or the elderly. After all, we ALL have problems. Shouldn't we be working to help EVERYONE?"​
And

"The term "egalitarian" in the context of gender relations has largely been co-opted by people who want to carry the banner of gender equality without actually acknowledging that women are an oppressed class. Instead, they want to pretend that men and women are oppressed totally equally, which just isn't true. Yes, there are ways in which traditional gender roles are damaging to men, but they are not systematically denied access to social, economic, and political power as a result."​
Not saying that all of you people who said you like the idea of egalitarianism are trying to ignore active movement, but while people can view feminists as angry... by that retrospect you _could_ view egalitarians as lazy/an 'easier' way out. There ARE many egalitarians who absolutely believe everyone should be equal, obviously, but imo it can often.. put yourself above feminism and dismisses their efforts and actual, you know, oppression.
I do believe feminism comes under a branch of egalitarianism, but I believe they have the same goals and it shouldn't be a matter of "yikes these feminazi's are whack, I don't want to associate myself with that". Which is wild, because the people who made radical feminists the stereotype of feminists were not feminists?

*TL;DR I respect egalitarians but refusing to associate yourself with feminism while you have the same aim dismisses the movement, chosen to do so because they're avoiding extreme radical feminism connotations. And once again, like you respect not ALL feminists are crazy, not ALL egalitarians do this. I just wanted to point it out.*
I put a lot of cans and coulds so people don't go for my throat lol, my purpose wasn't to assume/attack anyway


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## Tao (Oct 24, 2016)

That Zephyr Guy said:


> The whole "I'm an egalitarian" stuff is more redundant than anything. It only serves to create a chain of events that slows overall progress:



If people are actually doing things to further a cause, I don't see how it would slow down the progress of something just because some people choose to label themselves as something else, especially in this day and age where it's so much easier for everybody to have a voice. When changes are made it's not because people thought "wow, feminists are such cool cats! I know what I want to be when I grow up!", it's because of the logic and reasoning presented to make people thing differently, or in the case of government or other large entities, they saw that a lot of people viewed a topic a certain way and adjusted accordingly. 

They could call themselves a Tyranasarian for all the difference it makes, if they're doing something about an issue, it's going to have more impact than the people just complaining online about whether or not somebody is a feminist.

Seems a lot of people are more concerned with being able to say "look at what this movement I'm part of did!" rather than "look at these changes!".




That Zephyr Guy said:


> Just stick to the original term and exclude radicals like we do with literally everything else.
> We didn't rename Christianity because of Westboro.



Crap comparison. Religion can't be compared to a social movement.


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## LinkToTheWorld (Oct 24, 2016)

Tao said:


> Crap comparison. Religion can't be compared to a social movement.



Can't see anything wrong with what they said. They're giving an example. There's radicals and extremists in every walk of life, every religion/movement/minority group/political party. People don't stop associatiating themselves with something just because of the few extremists


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## lostineverfreeforest (Oct 24, 2016)

I'll eat my words and bite. Long-winded rant below, and not for the feint of heart. 


Spoiler: wall of text



Feminism used to be about equal rights; it USED TO. Now that western women enjoy the same freedoms of men, the idea and name of feminism has been co-opted by a bunch of vitriolic harpies with chips on their shoulders who cowardly hide behind words such as "equality," while in reality, striving for revenge against a shadowy Patriarchy, their actions aimed more or less at men in general. This _is_ the essence of 3rd wave feminism.

Feminism ceased to be about equality the moment women could do everything that men could. Feminism was about equality when women couldn't vote, hold positions in major companies higher than secretary, were barred from occupations based on their martial status, etc. - in other words, institutional sexism. Third-wave feminists have inferiority complexes and are constantly seeking to compensate by playing the part of the victim, using the political correctness du jour as an outlet for their insecurities. Most people wouldn't publicly bat an eye over a woman accusing a man of being sexist because society has gotten used to the pervasiveness of sexism.

If sexism was such an issue, why is it that a woman can make false accusations about sexual harassment or rape, and society will, for the most part, accept her story without checking the evidence, and even when evidence comes forward which contradicts the story, people still choose to believe the lie, shouting down detractors with accusations of sexism? What country rife with institutional sexism would allow this kind of behavior? No, the United States (where I live) has swung from utter dismissal of woman's issues to a pathological obsession with them, and when one is obsessed with seeing something in a certain way, perception will follow suit.

*Yes*, sexism still exists. There are men who hate women. There are bosses who will want to pay women less. This cannot be helped because it falls upon the individual biases of individuals. That cannot be prevented 100%. All of the sensitivity training from the cradle to the grave cannot reach everyone nor should it because that would be mind control. What can and currently is done amounts to creating an institution that recognizes the biases of individuals and making sure that those biases do not become institutional practices. That *is* being done. The lawyers who handle these suits are legion. In a sexist society, this area of the law would be middling and ineffective.

Now for the vast majority of you here on TBT who call themselves feminists but don't ascribe to the views of 3rd wavers, I can only say that you have mislabeled yourself. If one wants equality for all, then he or she has more in common with secular humanism. The original feminists won; *women have equal rights under the law*. To call one's self a feminist today would be like calling one's self an abolitionist calling for the emancipation of American slaves. It's already been accomplished and is an obsolete them term.

Just my two cents.


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## That Zephyr Guy (Oct 24, 2016)

Tao said:


> Crap comparison. Religion can't be compared to a social movement.




It wasn't a comparison to the movements as a whole but to how people treat outliers.


You also seem to misunderstand my entire point. My point is that because people spend so much time bickering about whether egalatiarianism = feminism or not, they're taking away from the entire idea both movements stand for as a whole. 

Of course it doesn't matter which people actually side on, it's just going to end up being more detrimental having this argument every time a group of extremists ruins the image for everybody else. This is where it takes time away from the actual movement - because when these people pop up, a whole new movement has to be created to differentiate from the crazies.

Regardless, we more or less believe the same thing so who cares in the end.


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## Romaki (Oct 25, 2016)

Yeah, people misusing the term and extremists don't change the original meaning and purpose.


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## Reindeer (Oct 26, 2016)

mogyay said:


> oh and the wage gap is real, it's called the glass ceiling soz


The glass ceiling is also complete bull. Equality does not mean equality of _outcome_, it means equality of _opportunity_. In western society, women have the same opportunities as men, and the only things that affect the outcome is their choices.

The wage gap argument was disproven because of several factors: men are more likely to ask for a raise, men are more likely to stay at work than go home to care for family (like, say, during a time of illness), men take fewer days off, men work more overtime, and so on. In this research following up the argument of there being a wage gap, they also proved that this is what's "keeping women back" - it's nothing to do with men going "ew they're women those are icky", because that literally does not happen (and it's illegal). What it has to do with is the choices that women make in regards to work.
So when person #1 and person #2 with the same resume apply for the same higher position, but the boss knows that person #2 is more likely to take time off, more likely to leave work to care for family, and other such things, then in the interest of having the position held by a person that is willing to work hard in it, the boss is going to give it to person #1, regardless of the sexes of the two candidates. It's economical common sense.

The whole question of why there is a "wage gap" or a "glass ceiling" has already been answered: there is none. The only way the outcome of individuals is affected is by the choices that individuals make. Unless you are going to tell women to start acting more like men, or men to act more like women, this is the best that is possible.
But if you are going to fight for more female CEO's or politicians or whatever, even when those women don't work in the same way their male counterparts do (or even have the same interests/knowhow for that matter), then you are asking for women to get special treatment. Apart from that, it's sexist, because it's saying that women are unable to achieve and hold these positions of their own accord.


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## mogyay (Oct 26, 2016)

Reindeer said:


> The glass ceiling is also complete bull. Equality does not mean equality of _outcome_, it means equality of _opportunity_. In western society, women have the same opportunities as men, and the only things that affect the outcome is their choices.
> 
> The wage gap argument was disproven because of several factors: men are more likely to ask for a raise, men are more likely to stay at work than go home to care for family (like, say, during a time of illness), men take fewer days off, men work more overtime, and so on. In this research following up the argument of there being a wage gap, they also proved that this is what's "keeping women back" - it's nothing to do with men going "ew they're women those are icky", because that literally does not happen (and it's illegal). What it has to do with is the choices that women make in regards to work.
> So when person #1 and person #2 with the same resume apply for the same higher position, but the boss knows that person #2 is more likely to take time off, more likely to leave work to care for family, and other such things, then in the interest of having the position held by a person that is willing to work hard in it, the boss is going to give it to person #1, regardless of the sexes of the two candidates. It's economical common sense.
> ...



society works in a way against women and that's why there's a wage gap and it's so frustrating when people can't even acknowledge that. editing out anything else i said cause i can't even cope with talking about this subject lol, it's too rage inducing.


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## Red Cat (Oct 26, 2016)

Reindeer said:


> But if you are going to fight for more female CEO's or politicians or whatever, even when those women don't work in the same way their male counterparts do (or even have the same interests/knowhow for that matter), then you are asking for women to get special treatment. Apart from that, it's sexist, because it's saying that women are unable to achieve and hold these positions of their own accord.



I want to respond to this paragraph because it highlights why there is a wage gap. You talk about women not working the same way men do as if masculine traits are the "default" and feminine traits are inferior when it comes to business. Being aggressive, taking risks, and working tons of hours are not always good traits and being compassionate, being more careful, and maintaining a good work/life balance are not bad traits. The reason why the former traits are often considered good and the latter are considered bad is because most major institutions are dominated by men, so they have a preference to hire and promote people who have the same traits as they do which means they usually hire and promote other men which creates a vicious cycle. Working 80 hours a week and getting only 3 hours of sleep per night is not a sign of commitment to your job, it's a sign of stupidity. That's why we had the financial collapse in 2008 and why most male-dominated governments are dysfunctional. _Maybe our institutions would be a lot better if men learned to work more like women_. There's nothing wrong with taking family leave when you have a child or valuing stability and cooperation over cutthroat competition. Studies have shown that these things make workers more productive and businesses more successful over the long run.

I believe feminism should be about getting people to acknowledge the real gender disparities in social, political, and economic and institutions make conscious efforts to interview, hire, and promote candidates who they would not normally look at. If an organization is 75% male and 25% female, it's hard to believe the organization when it says that it was just hiring the best people. What that really means is that the organization chose to hire based on a very narrow set of criteria and that organization needs to diversify to expand the criteria which candidates are considered under. Diversity is ultimately better than group-think.


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## Reindeer (Oct 27, 2016)

Red Cat said:


> I want to respond to this paragraph because it highlights why there is a wage gap. You talk about women not working the same way men do as if masculine traits are the "default" and feminine traits are inferior when it comes to business. Being aggressive, taking risks, and working tons of hours are not always good traits and being compassionate, being more careful, and maintaining a good work/life balance are not bad traits. The reason why the former traits are often considered good and the latter are considered bad is because most major institutions are dominated by men, so they have a preference to hire and promote people who have the same traits as they do which means they usually hire and promote other men which creates a vicious cycle. Working 80 hours a week and getting only 3 hours of sleep per night is not a sign of commitment to your job, it's a sign of stupidity. That's why we had the financial collapse in 2008 and why most male-dominated governments are dysfunctional. _Maybe our institutions would be a lot better if men learned to work more like women_. There's nothing wrong with taking family leave when you have a child or valuing stability and cooperation over cutthroat competition. Studies have shown that these things make workers more productive and businesses more successful over the long run.
> 
> I believe feminism should be about getting people to acknowledge the real gender disparities in social, political, and economic and institutions make conscious efforts to interview, hire, and promote candidates who they would not normally look at. If an organization is 75% male and 25% female, it's hard to believe the organization when it says that it was just hiring the best people. What that really means is that the organization chose to hire based on a very narrow set of criteria and that organization needs to diversify to expand the criteria which candidates are considered under. Diversity is ultimately better than group-think.


Men are not women, and women aren't men, and there is nothing wrong with either of them. You got that part right, but then your logic went astray.

First off, your comments on work hours are so richly American that they aren't even things I thought about during the writing of my post. We have very strict laws regarding the amount of hours worked per week, so that kind of overworking is simply not possible. Yet the same "disparity" phenomenon occurs here, for the very same reasons.
Saying that men should work like women is foolhardy. Especially when these men are able to spend time and care for their children and family as much as women are able to. It's also implying that women aren't capable of a dedicated work ethic, even when there is clear evidence to the contrary. Men shouldn't have to work like women, and women shouldn't have to work like men. Both should just be dedicated, and take responsibility for it when they are not. In the end, the latter is what such a discussion is about: whether we should absolve women of the responsibility of their choices.

Second, I question your definition of diversity. You seem to be thinking of diversity of thought, as you put "diversity" in contrast with "group-think", yet before that you strongly imply that it's impossible for a workplace that consists of 75% men and 25% women to be diverse. If a company should have general criteria of what kind of people would be good to hire, their sex should not matter. A company with diverse hiring criteria can very well still end up with 75% men, because it's not about what genitalia they have, but rather about their applicable knowledge and dedication.
This is why there is such a large number of women in healthcare institutions. Because on average, more women decide to go in that direction than men. These places hire the best workers they can, and so they end up with a lot of women and few men.

Should you really want to move towards workplaces to be 50% men and 50% women, as much as it is possible, you are in fact putting many men and women at a disadvantage, which means that there will be more inequality. A strong workforce consists of those that are most capable, and that's how people are being hired nowadays.


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## Reindeer (Oct 27, 2016)

Red Cat said:


> I want to respond to this paragraph because it highlights why there is a wage gap. You talk about women not working the same way men do as if masculine traits are the "default" and feminine traits are inferior when it comes to business. Being aggressive, taking risks, and working tons of hours are not always good traits and being compassionate, being more careful, and maintaining a good work/life balance are not bad traits. The reason why the former traits are often considered good and the latter are considered bad is because most major institutions are dominated by men, so they have a preference to hire and promote people who have the same traits as they do which means they usually hire and promote other men which creates a vicious cycle. Working 80 hours a week and getting only 3 hours of sleep per night is not a sign of commitment to your job, it's a sign of stupidity. That's why we had the financial collapse in 2008 and why most male-dominated governments are dysfunctional. _Maybe our institutions would be a lot better if men learned to work more like women_. There's nothing wrong with taking family leave when you have a child or valuing stability and cooperation over cutthroat competition. Studies have shown that these things make workers more productive and businesses more successful over the long run.
> 
> I believe feminism should be about getting people to acknowledge the real gender disparities in social, political, and economic and institutions make conscious efforts to interview, hire, and promote candidates who they would not normally look at. If an organization is 75% male and 25% female, it's hard to believe the organization when it says that it was just hiring the best people. What that really means is that the organization chose to hire based on a very narrow set of criteria and that organization needs to diversify to expand the criteria which candidates are considered under. Diversity is ultimately better than group-think.


Men are not women, and women aren't men, and there is nothing wrong with either of them. You got that part right, but then your logic went astray.

First off, your comments on work hours are so richly American that they aren't even things I thought about during the writing of my post. We have very strict laws regarding the amount of hours worked per week, so that kind of overworking is simply not possible. Yet the same "disparity" phenomenon occurs here, for the very same reasons.
Saying that men should work like women is foolhardy. Especially when these men are able to spend time and care for their children and family as much as women are able to. It's also implying that women aren't capable of a dedicated work ethic, even when there is clear evidence to the contrary. Men shouldn't have to work like women, and women shouldn't have to work like men. Both should just be dedicated, and take responsibility for it when they are not. In the end, the latter is what such a discussion is about: whether we should absolve women of the responsibility of their choices.

Second, I question your definition of diversity. You seem to be thinking of diversity of thought, as you put "diversity" in contrast with "group-think", yet before that you strongly imply that it's impossible for a workplace that consists of 75% men and 25% women to be diverse. If a company should have general criteria of what kind of people would be good to hire, their sex should not matter. A company with diverse hiring criteria can very well still end up with 75% men, because it's not about what genitalia they have, but rather about their applicable knowledge and dedication.
This is why there is such a large number of women in healthcare institutions. Because on average, more women decide to go in that direction than men. These places hire the best workers they can, and so they end up with a lot of women and few men.

Should you really want to move towards workplaces to be 50% men and 50% women, as much as it is possible, you are in fact putting many men and women at a disadvantage, which means that there will be more inequality. A strong workforce consists of those that are most capable, and that's how people are being hired nowadays.


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## Kristine015 (Oct 27, 2016)

I don't know hi I think this is a far more complex issue/topic than it may actually seem. :-/ One thing for sure though you can't please everybody. I am just gotta stay neutral and say whatever float your boat


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## oath2order (Oct 31, 2016)

I believe in equality between sexes but I don't call myself a feminist.


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## Frostbite2002 (Nov 1, 2016)

I believe fully in equality for both sexes, but I prefer not to call myself a feminist and yeah sure call me weak or whatever but it's because of all the extremists and of course, buzzfeed. I feel like feminism is treated more like a joke because of all the cringy videos that buzzfeed put up and because of tumblr. I would love to not act ashamed to be associated with the name but if the movement wants to be taken seriously and not just be laughed at, then all these extremists need to go, now. Also the misconception that men can't be feminists is silly, anyone who believes in equal rights for the sexes is allowed to be considered a feminist. This is a really complex and delicate subject so I'll just leave it there for now. In short, I would prefer not to use the term feminist for myself as it has mostly been turned into a joke, but if you would like to consider me as one, then I won't get mad or anything.


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## hamster (Nov 1, 2016)

i'm not a feminist. it's not relevant anymore in western society. it feels like a wild ride of guilt tripping. "don't you believe in equality..?" "if you're not a feminist, that means you're sexist."


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## Antonio (Nov 3, 2016)

I'm basically a egalitarian so no.


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## kylie32123 (Nov 3, 2016)

OH. MY. GOSH. LEAFY WHERE ARE YOU????


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## nintendoanna (Nov 3, 2016)

kylie32123 said:


> OH. MY. GOSH. LEAFY WHERE ARE YOU????



leafy is still relevant?? yikes


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## deSPIRIA (Nov 3, 2016)

yikes indeed


I wouldn't consider myself a feminist since I don't believe in many things they want to achieve since they rely on myths to get their way - they should take their concerns towards the Middle East. Feminism is cancer.


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## seliph (Nov 3, 2016)

I'm not really sure.

I guess my beliefs are rather feminist and I think feminism is (mostly) a good thing, however I'd rather not call myself one. I don't really like calling myself anything political as it is but more importantly, my main reason I don't want the label is because of TERFs and how prominent white feminism is made to be over any other kind of feminism.

The abuse and bullying by TERFs (Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists, who are often also very homophobic/biphobic towards gay/bisexual men and to bisexual women for their attraction to men) that myself,a handful of close friends, and so many people in general have experienced makes me really reluctant to want to use the label "feminist" for myself.

Then there's the most popular form of feminism being white feminism, which is feminism which basically only benefits white middle-upper class women, usually from America. The type that are obsessed with the label "feminist" and tries to force people to use it rather than trying to actually help women and educate people on the good side of feminism. The type that thinks women wearing hijabs and burqas are "oppressed" and that showing your skin is the ultimate form of female empowerment. The type that sees women like Hillary Clinton and Lena Dunham as feminist icons. I'm not here for that.

So while sure I support feminism and have feminist ideals myself, and would _I guess_ be technically feminist, I'd just really rather not use the term for myself.


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## furbyq (Nov 3, 2016)

I consider myself a feminist in the most basic sense of what the word originally meant. Females being equal with males in every way. I haven't watched the buzzfeed videos but I've heard they were bad because they pander to the more extreme feminists who hate men. They're also usually TERFs and I hate TERFs.


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## Buttonsy (Nov 3, 2016)

I definitely do consider myself one

I wouldn't judge feminism based on Buzzfeed since corporations pretty much are obligated to be marketable, what's good activism isn't always good clickbait y'know, like a lot of their feminism videos are good but some are flawed and in general, corporate feminism for profit shouldn't be compared to feminism out of passion

Also, as a non-binary person who is a feminist, on the whole clothes have no gender thing, they don't but there is such a hammering in of it in society that they do that it can be validating as a trans person to dress in the way expected of the gender you identify as, I don't specifically dress one way when I feel like a dude and one way when I feel like a girl buuuut I do kinda feel like dressing differently depending on my gender feelings. Clothes have no gender but when the toxic message that they do has been hammered into us for so long, it can still feel comforting and validating to dress the way associated our gender. Not only that, but a lot of trans people have been told so strongly to dress a certain way because of the gender that we are perceived as that it feels liberating to dress the exact opposite of that. At least that's my experience, there is no unanimous trans or non-binary experience.

And with reference to how no one can agree on anything, that's because there are so many different branches of feminism and so many different individuals in those branches, it's not like feminists are like... a big hivemind, we debate things a lot and some of us even hate other kinds of feminists, we all have different opinions and experiences and methods of trying to achieve equality.


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## Limon (Nov 3, 2016)

I believe in equality in the sexes, but the current third way feminism I do not support. I guess I don't consider myself a feminist.


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## zoetrope (Nov 4, 2016)

I absolutely consider myself a feminist.


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## TaliZorah (Nov 4, 2016)

Ew. No.

Long story short: It's useless.
Longer story than that: It focuses on mundane subjects that don't even apply to the western world.
It shames men for being men and makes real women look like prissy, delicate flowers.

It's laughable, foolish and very shortsighted.


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## blossum (Nov 4, 2016)

It's useless... is it useless to the 13.5 million girls who get married every year before they turn 18? Is it useless to the 62 million girls currently not in education? I know it doesn't have the best connotations but you need to understand majority of feminists actually do want THIS particular change. It's just the media that brands them as focusing on "lesser important" issues. Like those issues where principals send home girls for wearing spaghetti straps, yes, unfair, yes, an issue, but there's nothing wrong with focusing on first world issues whilst battling futures for all these girls and boys who would never even dream of having those problems. I'm not trying to pick on you but I just really wanted to point out that. The movement has affected many lives for the utmost better.


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## TaliZorah (Nov 4, 2016)

blossum said:


> It's useless... is it useless to the 13.5 million girls who get married every year before they turn 18? Is it useless to the 62 million girls currently not in education? I know it doesn't have the best connotations but you need to understand majority of feminists actually do want THIS particular change. It's just the media that brands them as focusing on "lesser important" issues. Like those issues where principals send home girls for wearing spaghetti straps, yes, unfair, yes, an issue, but there's nothing wrong with focusing on first world issues whilst battling futures for all these girls and boys who would never even dream of having those problems. I'm not trying to pick on you but I just really wanted to point out that. The movement has affected many lives for the utmost better.



13.5 million women who get married before 18? Are you talking about the middle east? Because feminism, REAL FEMINISM, is definitely needed in the middle east. Those women are stoned to death based on rumors that they slept with another man. A RUMOR. It is morbid. They are treated like cattle, sold off and like you said, married long before 18. However, that does NOT apply to America. Feminism is not needed for 1st world countries. Period.

62 million women not in education? Again, are we talking about America or the middle east? Re-read my original statement, please. I am talking about western civilization.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. You might stand for something else in terms of group definition, but we, the common people, can only go off what we see. We see men being treated unfairly. We see women talking about fake wage gaps. We see women talking about rape like it's an insult rather than a life-changing act. These are the negative things we see and we must go forward with it. These are NEGATIVE effects that common people see. Do you really want to be associated with a group that spews hatred?

Your comment about girls going home because of spaghetti straps.
It is called prepping them for real life. You really think walking into a board meeting room in a spaghetti strap tank top is going to fly with your boss? No. You think men wearing pajama pants walking into that same board meeting is gonna fly? No. It goes both ways. School dress code is designed to implement the future rules of possible jobs and careers. School dress code is regulated to keep children from getting away with anything they want. THAT is the true reason for dress code. NOT because they think some boy is going to stare at a women's shoulder.

The movement in itself has affected women in the late 1800s and early 1900s all the way up to even the 90s with second wave feminism. That's where it's history ends. That is where men and women became equal. Equal pay, equal share and equal social status. There is absolutely NO need for it here in America.


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## blossum (Nov 4, 2016)

TaliZorah said:


> 13.5 million women who get married before 18? Are you talking about the middle east? Because feminism, REAL FEMINISM, is definitely needed in the middle east.


 The 13.5 million is from the UNFPA 2010 report, which showed that in total it was 52 million in rural areas to 16 mil in urban areas. 
Absolutely, that is what I'm saying. I thought you meant you didn't think it was necessary here so I was a bit shocked.



> However, that does NOT apply to America. Feminism is not needed for 1st world countries. Period.


Yes, the inhumane treatment has no words for it, but I don't understand the extreme hatred for first world women's rights. I'll talk about that further down.



> 62 million women not in education? Again, are we talking about America or the middle east? Re-read my original statement, please. I am talking about western civilization.


Apologies, error on my behalf. What I was trying to portray was that people in third world countries need support from first world, which I misinterpreted from you. 



> We see men being treated unfairly. We see women talking about fake wage gaps. We see women talking about rape like it's an insult rather than a life-changing act. These are the negative things we see and we must go forward with it. These are NEGATIVE effects that common people see. Do you really want to be associated with a group that spews hatred?


Since men, too, are treated unfairly, shouldn't that mean that feminism should be valid? To fix up inequality regarding double standards and modest lies.
Of course not, but these minority can't represent the whole movement when its literal aim is to be equal. Extremists unfortunately are falsely a huge representation of the community. But there is always a radical side to any group? Usually this is why people prefer being "egalitarian". I know people don't want to be associated with it but it's up to us to reestablish the message we want to give, not let the media define us, or when your friends shame it without knowing what lies beyond the surface.
What are we supposed to do when rape IS a life-changing act? Rape still exists in first world countries, shouldn't awareness and prevention be taught here too? 



> Your comment about girls going home because of spaghetti straps.


Whilst I do agree that rules are made to be followed, my example was supposed to be for those actual cases where girls have been sent home strictly unfairly. I believe when breaking the rules they must deal with those consequences. But when girls are sent home solely because it makes grown men uncomfortable, I believe that must be fixed.



> Equal pay, equal share and equal social status. There is absolutely NO need for it here in America.


Women technically have as many rights as men, and that was an amazing step which should have been achieved quicker.
I know this is super vague but, what about those stereotypes that women are amenable, frail and dandy, so are then less likely to be picked for promotion and are nine times more likely to do childcare than men? Don't we need feminism to fix these things in the first world? I know they're not as extreme as in the third world.


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## windloft (Nov 4, 2016)

i prefer to not label myself with anything that might attract bad attention. i believe that everybody deserves equality, regardless of gender or orientation or race.


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## Legendary Sandwich (Nov 8, 2016)

This video goes out to everyone still complaining about the "wage gap".






'nuff said.


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## visibleghost (Nov 8, 2016)

TaliZorah said:


> Ew. No.
> 
> Long story short: It's useless.
> Longer story than that: It focuses on mundane subjects that don't even apply to the western world.
> ...



what ant being a man is shamed w feminsim


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## Legendary Sandwich (Nov 8, 2016)

Let me just break this down to see if I've got this right from people harping on *Egalitarianism*.

I might get a bit heavy on this, so if you don't want to read, do not click the spoiler.



Spoiler






*Legendary Sandwich is a PROUD Egalitarian!*



> "no i'm not a feminist but i support equality for both genders" so... you're a feminist.



No. I'm an Egalitarian/Philanthropist/Humanist. I honestly cannot tolerate high horse Feminists 'nor the Third Wave banner they champion because of this entitled mentality of _'Well, if you're for equality and basic human rights, then obviously you're a feminist'_, as if Feminism were the ONLY pathway to salvation and has a monopoly on every human rights movement and or philosophy!

You ever wonder why people don't take Feminism seriously? This is it right here.

Way to force your ideology and agenda onto others. Real kind of you.



> im a feminist 100%
> egalitarians are rly manky tbh thats all i gotta say



I DON'T AGREE WITH YOU SO I'M GOING TO INSULT YOU.



> Absolutely, all this "i'm an egalitarian!" stuff is crap. All movements have their loud extremists, but it doesn't change what the movement is about.



I've yet to meet any true Egalitarian extremists. Our camp is very self-policing and very much in solidarity when it comes to our principles and philosophy. Every argument and debate I've ever had with my fellow Egal Pals have been pleasant, clean, and free from baseless conjecture.



> I think people can be free to say that they are "egalitarian", since it technically exists too.. but their values are.. literally shared with feminism, and they only prefer it simply because of the radical undertones. I remember seeing a thread about it and it enlightened me:
> https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/35pu2o
> 
> "Egalitarianism is a toothless philosophy when it comes to exacting any real change.
> ...



My favorite is this quote right here because they went and got the definition of Egalitarianism from a FEMINIST REDDIT!

I can't even. I just cannot even.

Also, _"technically"_ exists?

Egalitarianism has been a philosophy and political movement since Ancient China, where the earliest example of Egalitarianism was recorded to help farmers get more wages. It was an economic movement that was egalitarian in nature.

The earliest known act of Feminism was recorded in I believe France, in a time period after the Italian Renaissance.

Egalitarianism has been around way before Feminism, it has been a social philosophy that has influenced law, religion, the military, economics, and more since the times of ancient empires and dynasties. To say people prefer it because of "less radical" undertones, or that it's a "toothless" philosophy is actually genuinely insulting to a practice and view point that's been around for centuries.

Next time, try using Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egalitarianism

*Though, take note. People have edited the article to try and discredit it.

Observe this little piece here:*

_"Equalist is how many describe themselves since circa 1996, mostly outside the US who get distanced from the mainstream feminist movement, often citing extreme views as reason of not calling themselves feminist. In the western world, in both UK and US it's still just a small percentage of people declaring themselves as equalists, but the numbers are growing as scientists like research scientist Laura Waters[22] and feminists join equalist groups due to mishandled cases and negative opinion about the main feminist movement. Christina Hoff Sommers is sometimes described as an equalist although she didn't call herself that on record."_

See that? That's garbage. Be on the look out for stuff like that.

Peace!


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## visibleghost (Nov 8, 2016)

lol chill out

the thing u are talking abt seems coolio i guess ?? i have no problem w/ wanting to have equality for everyone hahahhh

my main problem w/ the ppl who call themselves that is that most ive spoken to are super anti feminism or working for gender ewuality.  maybe ive just met crap ppl but those ive spoken w anout it seem to just want All Those Darn Women to stfu because theyre offended that feminism mainly focuses on women and not men .,


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## Legendary Sandwich (Nov 8, 2016)

> maybe ive just met crap ppl but those ive spoken w anout it seem to just want All Those Darn Women to stfu because theyre offended that feminism mainly focuses on women and not men .,



Doesn't that make you raise an important question?

_How can a movement be about true equality when it focuses more on women than men and not both equally?_

Truth be told I am Anti-Feminist for this reason. I don't care if you're fighting for the advancement of women, by all means, do so. But don't try and market it as some all encompassing umbrella of "equal rights for everyone". To me that seems dishonest.


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## visibleghost (Nov 8, 2016)

feminism focuses on women because women face oppression based on gender
men are sufferinh from gender roles too but they arent oppressed and they dont have the same issues as women do.

to me it kinda sounds like u think it is equality to, like if Bert have 50 oranges and Dave has 10 it is equal to give them 5 extra iranges each, so Bert will have 55 and Dave will have 15.  that doesnt sound very equal to me.

there are many different types of feminism i guess but i'd say that a lot of feminists think that issues that men have are very important as well.


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## Trundle (Nov 8, 2016)

i am in support of equality for bananas


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## Legendary Sandwich (Nov 8, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> feminism focuses on women because women face oppression based on gender
> men are sufferinh from gender roles too but they arent oppressed and they dont have the same issues as women do.
> 
> to me it kinda sounds like u think it is equality to, like if Bert have 50 oranges and Dave has 10 it is equal to give them 5 extra iranges each, so Bert will have 55 and Dave will have 15.  that doesnt sound very equal to me.
> ...



In what ways are women oppressed in First World Countries?


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## visibleghost (Nov 8, 2016)

Legendary Sandwich said:


> In what ways are women oppressed in First World Countries?



rape culture
the general attitude that girls are worse than boys 
beauty stuffs
catcalling
a ton of ppl say sexist ****
violence against women
 etc idk im tired i just thought of some


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## RibbonFinale (Nov 8, 2016)

In a way, yes. I'm all for _equality._ That's it. I don't side with some of the more intense feminists at all. I don't believe all men are pigs either. I've spoken to many feminists who think the same way and are saddened by how the world sees them now due to the select few who ruined their image.


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## Legendary Sandwich (Nov 8, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> rape culture
> the general attitude that girls are worse than boys
> beauty stuffs
> catcalling
> ...



Well, I think I've seen enough. Thank you for your time and energy.


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## Miii (Nov 8, 2016)

I'm an egalitarian. I think that everyone should have the same set of rights as far as the law is concerned (which is already the case in America, where I live), and that those rights should be applied in the same manner for everyone, again, as far as the law is concerned, regardless of race, gender, religion or special snowflake status (which America needs to work on).

As it stands now, men lose the majority of custody and alimony cases. Men are required to pay child support to their children's mother if she pushes for it, and they'll go to jail if they can't afford to pay for it, despite the fact that women have an array of non-surgical birth control methods available to them to prevent pregnancy (other than abstinence), where men have one non-surgical means of preventing pregnancy. Men receive lengthier and harsher prison sentences for committing the exact same crime as women. Men are far less likely to have a domestic violence report taken seriously. A man is often expected to restrain a women, rather than fight back if she's attempting to assault him, and men are more often the victims of assault to begin with.

On a less serious, more social/ cultural note, women can make generalizations about men, regardless of how hateful or inaccurate they are (insert crazy feminist comments here) without being called sexist, without risking losing their jobs and without risking a news article or some other form of backlash from the media, should they happen to hear about it. Women are now more likely to be hired for jobs in career fields where men tend to dominate because of the new importance being placed on "diversity and inclusion". Lastly, again on a less serious note, women don't get flack for not wanting to date a fat neckbeard, where men do for not wanting to date fat women.

Essentially, I'm not a feminist because I don't believe that men have an ideal set of rights that we need to adjust women's rights to match or be equal to. In fact, I think women benefit in some areas at the expense of men (alimony, custody and child support). I think women in America need to quite whining about what victims they are, and realize just how good they have it.


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## Aronthaer (Nov 8, 2016)

Brooke_the_Phoenix said:


> No, I'm not.  The main reason is that I don't like labels, specifically labels relating to an ideaology (though I do still hesitate to call myself an atheist sometimes, even though it isn't an ideology).  Also, I do tend to disagree with a lot of things that many feminists say.  I am all for equality of the sexes (and by that I mean equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome), but I honestly believe that, for the most part, we've reached that goal in the west.  Legally, men and women are equal in the west (and yes, it is illegal to pay women less simply for being women, and the pay gap is actually because of personal job choice, not discrimination).  Also, a lot of things feminists bring up aren't gendered issues.  As a female, I have _never_, in my life, been discriminated against because of my gender, or at all really.  I know anecdotal evidence isn't really worth that much, but I thought I should still point it out.
> 
> I don't call myself an anti-feminist or an MRA either though.  I don't have a problem with feminism as a whole, or even feminists.  I've got friends who are feminists who are really nice, and I've been trying lately not to lump all feminists together.  Like people on this thread have already said, not all feminists are man-haters or radicals, and I do agree with feminism in its simplest form.   I just have problems with a lot of things that _most_ feminists bring up, and I don't feel comfortable being associated with the movement.



I literally can't explain my stance any better than this.


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## Blythetastic (Nov 8, 2016)

Yes, I am a feminist. It does not mean I hate men or look down on them. It means I believe in equal rights (and pay) for women and men.


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## Jamborenium (Nov 8, 2016)

nope I'm non-feminist female, I just hate what feminism has become these days TBH


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## blossum (Nov 8, 2016)

Legendary Sandwich said:


> -


Lol
I quoted it because I've already read it before and it well explains my stance. Obviously I don't browse r/feminazis or anti feminism; I already consume enough salt from league lel. It doesn't explain the definition of egalitarianism? Just a stance? I understand egalitarianism is equality FOR ALL, but so is feminism, which is literally what those users said. True feminism is about equal rights for everyone...? I understand and am with you when people neglect the other genders and only focus on females, or even try to comply with double standards. However like those users said, I believe feminists are overall trying to take more action than egalitarians. Some egalitarians are doing God's work and progressing with real acts, but you often hear their beliefs and not their actions. Before going fruitful on me this is just expository, and I will explicitly repeat there are always two sides. Similarly, there are plenty of feminists who do not take action either.
Look, my aim wasn't to insult egalitarianism because it literally wants equal rights which is what I want. My issue was for specifically for that SOME people do prefer it because they don't want to be labelled a feminist because of it's radical undertones. I don't think you can disagree with that? I know there are a lot of people like you who can be honest with truly wanting equality through being an egalitarian, but there are literally users who posted in this thread who won't call themselves feminists because it's too extreme and would rather call themselves egalitarians. So the whole preference thing.. the half-hearted egalitarians out there.. is what I'm accusing. Do you just not believe people can sway to egalitarianism in preference to feminism? If that piece can stay on wikipedia then there's enough people who believe they can do that...


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## Darumy (Nov 8, 2016)

I have the same views as a feminist, and I owe the movement a lot as a female myself, but I never wanted to associate myself with the modern background of the movement. Brushing aside the extremists is not owning up to them.

At the same time, anti-feminists are usually really obnoxious and overdone lmao. Also: people who ask "WHY IS IT CALLED FEMINISM IF IT'S ABOUT EQUALITY" are just a tad lacking in the brain department


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## chaicow (Nov 8, 2016)

I am a feminist. I support gender equality and support policies that fix gender issues. I however do not like how people try to bring feminism into everything. Gender issues, while they exist in a lot of issues, are not in everything. For example, this dude proposed to this girl in public and she said yes, and then some weirdos said "She is anti-feminist because she let her boyfriend propose to her. OMG she should propose to him because that's feminism" or something like that. Don't try to bring feminism into non gender issue related subject areas. I think that women can propose to men but just because a guy proposes to a girl and she says yes, doesn't mean that they are anti-feminist. Let people do what they want to do and if a guy wants to propose to a girl, thats great and vice versa. Also, I don't like the super radical man-hater feminists. They are the reason that feminism has a bad reputation. Feminism isn't about how women are superior than men. Feminism is about equality and I hate the man hating radical feminists that are blind to equality. Feminists support equality and not gender superiority. The radical man hating feminist trolls ruin feminism for all of the people who support feminism and they make feminism look bad. Wow... this was a really long rant post...


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## Legendary Sandwich (Nov 8, 2016)

blossum said:


> Lol
> Look, my aim wasn't to insult egalitarianism because it literally wants equal rights which is what I want. My issue was for specifically for that SOME people do prefer it because they don't want to be labelled a feminist because of it's radical undertones. I don't think you can disagree with that? I know there are a lot of people like you who can be honest with truly wanting equality through being an egalitarian, but there are literally users who posted in this thread who won't call themselves feminists because it's too extreme and would rather call themselves egalitarians. So the whole preference thing.. the half-hearted egalitarians out there.. is what I'm accusing. Do you just not believe people can sway to egalitarianism in preference to feminism? If that piece can stay on wikipedia then there's enough people who believe they can do that...



To be honest, wouldn't you abandon ship if that ship was heading into an iceberg?

That's the vibe I get from people choosing to be Anti-Feminist just because.

That's not a problem with them, that's a problem with the ideology as a whole. If people are seriously looking at your movement and saying "ah hell naw", then perhaps you too should take a closer look and see for yourself why, and probably do something about it.

I'm not going to deny that there are soft-hearted Egals or Anti-Fems.

People can call themselves whatever they want or try and disassociate themselves for whatever. At the end of the day, it's their actions and in-actions that will define who and what they truly are.




> Also: people who ask "WHY IS IT CALLED FEMINISM IF IT'S ABOUT EQUALITY" are just a tad lacking in the brain department



No seriously. Why is it called Feminism if it's about equality?

Why not embrace more neutral terms such as Egalitarianism, Humanitarianism, or Philanthropy?

Femi-nism, Feminine, Women. There is literally no equality in your name.

That's like saying the Men's Rights Activist Movement fights for women's rights while also somehow simultaneously putting men's concerns on the center pedestal.


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## L. Lawliet (Nov 9, 2016)

im an egalitarian, which is more along the lines of second wave feminism. like the 1960's feminism that got women in the workforce


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## Nuclear Bingo (Nov 10, 2016)

no, not at all.


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## Rasha (Nov 10, 2016)

used to


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## pipty (Nov 10, 2016)

too many negative connotations so no. feminists = irritating people usually


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## Flowerchild (Nov 10, 2016)

I'm a feminist when it means equalitarianism but not when it's about silencing men's rights, criterias you need and should pass to get into a job and dissing women who get pregnant or get into a relationship because it's 'domestic and un-feminisitic,' I basically agree with how a lot of feminism has tarnished/semi-destroyed the feminism movement.


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## Momzilla (Nov 10, 2016)

I'd rather refer to myself as an "Equalist".

The term "feminist" is too often used as a banner for hating men in everything they do.


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## hamster (Nov 10, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> rape culture
> the general attitude that girls are worse than boys
> beauty stuffs
> catcalling
> ...



1) what?
2) no, it's the opposite
3) you don't know what to say do you?
4) i mean, it's annoying but get over it, it's not like they're harming you
5) true!!
6) more men are victims of homicide, accidents on the job (or death) and suicide
yes, i guess you could say that more women are victims of abuse and rape but there's probably tons of men who don't speak up
edit: i'm not saying that women's lives are perfect, but you're making it sound like women are the only ones that have to deal with problems in this society


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## pocky (Nov 10, 2016)

Hyper masculinity hurts everyone, not just women so of course I consider myself a feminist. I just want equality for all.


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## visibleghost (Nov 10, 2016)

Ekcriptia said:


> 1) what?
> 2) no, it's the opposite
> 3) you don't know what to say do you?
> 4) i mean, it's annoying but get over it, it's not like they're harming you
> ...



lol relax youre being condescending af hahahah

im not saying women are the only people who have problems in society lol. but women are victims of sexism which men arent :^)

1. rape culture or whatever u want to call it is real.
2. ???? where
3. women are definitely pressured to appear beautiful and appeal to men. men are supposed to look certain ways too but the way it is for women is more extreme
4. :~) 
5. wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
6. is that violence against men because they are men? women are often victims of abuse because of their role in society. and sure there are a bunch of men who don't speak up about abuse but that doesn't mean that the abuse women face is less bad or whatever???

i think you're making it sound like women shouldnt complain because "Men Have It Super Bad Too )''': "


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## Aronthaer (Nov 10, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> but women are victims of sexism which men arent :^)



Since when? men have gender roles, things that aren't considered acceptable for them to do that women can and are portrayed as uncaring and cruel in society. There are massive amounts of male stereotypes that are hurtful and untrue and no one cares because for some reason they think women have it soooo much worse. I actually told myself I wouldn't get involved in this thread because I hate fighting with people, especially on TBT, but if you think that there's no sexism against men, you have to be pretty damn ignorant.

A lot of things we think apply to women in our culture apply to men as well. If a woman with a perfect body in a movie or video game is "oversexualized," the dude with the perfect six pack not wearing a shirt is just as sexual. But everyone's too busy looking for things unfair towards women to take off their tinted glasses and see it's a two-way street.

In case you need a few examples of stereotypes against men:

Men are untrustworthy
Men don't tell women the truth
Men are more likely to cheat
Men disrespect women
Men think themselves superior

Everyone thinks that women are being treated as inferiors to the point where you literally can't treat a woman any worse than a man for any reason (even a valid one that has nothing to do with their gender) without being called sexist and practically labeled a social outcast. meanwhile, sterotypes against males are actually getting worse and no one cares because "we're men and we're obviously aggressive and hateful towards women and we deserve whatever we get."


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## hamster (Nov 11, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> lol relax youre being condescending af hahahah
> 
> im not saying women are the only people who have problems in society lol. but women are victims of sexism which men arent :^)
> 
> ...



condescending?? really?!?!!?
1) rape culture isn't real
2) men are immature, men are pigs, men are ignorant, men are mostly stronger than us so that means they'll probably hurt us!
3) beauty stuffs? women & men both have equal issues on that
4) @@@@??3
5) :____@
6) i didn't say it makes it less bad. what i meant was is that it's bad that men don't speak up about it

no, i wasn't saying that, your points are just pathetic. "oh yeah uh... catcalling & beauty... stuffs..." men do have it bad too though. you didn't speak about issues for men either, i just want you to know that they do...


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## Cailey (Nov 15, 2016)

far from it.


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## deSPIRIA (Nov 17, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> im not saying women are the only people who have problems in society lol. but women are victims of sexism which men arent :^)
> 1. rape culture or whatever u want to call it is real.



I want to cry. I really do. I'm crying. My tears are flowing. I'm screaming. I can't believe how people like you exist. AAAH.
Yes, rape culture is real, not in America, or England, and places like that. People get arrested for being rapists, therefore it is not a rape culture. Also, women get more lenient sentences for being rapists, so isn't that sexist? I do find it hilarious that saying that men don't face sexism is sexist on its own, you poor soul. You call Ekcriptia condescending when you're treating women as being superior and in a higher class than men. I'm not usually mean, but this, this really bugs me, man.


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## Tao (Nov 17, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> 1. rape culture or whatever u want to call it is real.
> 
> 3. women are definitely pressured to appear beautiful and appeal to men. men are supposed to look certain ways too but the way it is for women is more extreme
> 
> 6. is that violence against men because they are men? women are often victims of abuse because of their role in society. and sure there are a bunch of men who don't speak up about abuse but that doesn't mean that the abuse women face is less bad or whatever???



1) It's really not.

2) It's more extreme (subjective opinion, btw), soooo...It's worse for women?


visibleghost said:


> i think you're making it sound like women shouldnt complain because "Men Have It Super Bad Too )



3) Actually, I would go as far to say that violence against men is because they are men. There isn't the same stigma attached to hitting a man as there is to a woman, therefore they're more likely to be a target because they're expected to be able to defend themselves or because it proves some sort of superiority to the a-hole starting the attack. Meanwhile it's 'wrong to hit girls', which is why often times the guy is beaten to a pulp whilst his female friend is at worst pushed to the side because she's in the way of his savage beating.

As far as domestic abuse goes, it's not comparable to random attacks on the street. They're two totally different scenarios. Don't be stupid.


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## Red Cat (Nov 17, 2016)

Tao said:


> Actually, I would go as far to say that violence against men is because they are men. There isn't the same stigma attached to hitting a man as there is to a woman, therefore they're more likely to be a target because they're expected to be able to defend themselves or because it proves some sort of superiority to the a-hole starting the attack. Meanwhile it's 'wrong to hit girls', which is why often times the guy is beaten to a pulp whilst his female friend is at worst pushed to the side because she's in the way of his savage beating.



There is a difference between getting in a fight with someone and assaulting someone. A fight is when people want to beat the hell out of each other and are willing participants until they are sufficiently injured. Assault is using your physical advantage to attack someone who doesn't want to fight back. Men fight other men more often than women, but men assault women more often than other men. Fighting can be a way to show your "manhood"; assault is cowardly no matter who it's against. Women get assaulted more often than men because cowards always look for the easiest target.


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## Tao (Nov 17, 2016)

Red Cat said:


> There is a difference between getting in a fight with someone and assaulting someone. A fight is when people want to beat the hell out of each other and are willing participants until they are sufficiently injured. Assault is using your physical advantage to attack someone who doesn't want to fight back.



Feels like we're moving the goalposts here.

Obviously fights and assaults are two different things, probably why when there's a high profile boxing match on people don't ask "hey, did you see that assault last night!?".

Whether or not a victim of an assault fights back doesn't make it any less of an assault. They're ultimately still an unwilling participant, whether or not they sit there and take the beating or try to defend themselves doesn't really change that.




Red Cat said:


> Men fight other men more often than women, but men assault women more often than other men. Fighting can be a way to show your "manhood"; assault is cowardly no matter who it's against. Women get assaulted more often than men because cowards always look for the easiest target.



...Hmmm...


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## nintendoanna (Nov 18, 2016)

what have i done


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## thisistian (Nov 18, 2016)

Nah, not really bothered about feminism.


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## debinoresu (Nov 18, 2016)

yeah in the sense of like... if i was born male, i think id be a very different person today, bc of how male born people are treated so differently... id like a point where we dont really differentiate male/female beyond the physical stuff, and that id still basically be the same person i am today if i was born male. im still a guy but im raised as a girl, but if i was born male i know id probably even have a different personality, different morals, etc. and similar with races, id like there to be some point of mixing where theres not really a difference about you regardless of the qualities youre born with. thats what i figure when i think of "equality." think if youd be a different person if you were born of the opposite sex or of a different race and the different ways people are treated based on those factors feel a lot more evident. its not necessarily negative to want to differentiate, just i personally want equal treatment to that extent


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## lostineverfreeforest (Nov 18, 2016)

Ashvenn said:


> I want to cry. I really do. I'm crying. My tears are flowing. I'm screaming. I can't believe how people like you exist. AAAH.
> Yes, rape culture is real, not in America, or England, and places like that. People get arrested for being rapists, therefore it is not a rape culture. Also, women get more lenient sentences for being rapists, so isn't that sexist? I do find it hilarious that saying that men don't face sexism is sexist on its own, you poor soul. You call Ekcriptia condescending when you're treating women as being superior and in a higher class than men. I'm not usually mean, but this, this really bugs me, man.



Did you expect any less from a Tumblr feminist?


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## Kare (Nov 19, 2016)

Oooh, couldn't *agree* more, Worldsvamp!


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## deSPIRIA (Nov 19, 2016)

lostineverfreeforest said:


> Did you expect any less from a Tumblr feminist?


[internalised oppression]


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## lostineverfreeforest (Nov 19, 2016)

Ashvenn said:


> [internalised oppression]



It's absolute insanity, they see the world entirely in black & white (oppressors vs. the oppressed) and ignore anything that goes against their worldview. Literally impossible to reason with.


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## tumut (Nov 19, 2016)

men r hot women r not so nah xd


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## littletwinclouds (Nov 19, 2016)

Ashvenn said:


> [internalised oppression]



papa bless.


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## hamster (Nov 19, 2016)

Ashvenn said:


> [internalised oppression]


oh? you disagree with me? you're just internally oppressed, i feel SOO sorry for you
hah.a.......................


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## radical6 (Nov 19, 2016)

Whats a feminist


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## Celestefey (Nov 20, 2016)

Ashvenn said:


> [internalised oppression]









Modern day feminism is a joke. :///


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## Watchingthetreetops (Nov 20, 2016)

This is a difficult question, I think.  My initial response is yes, but not for the same reasons as others.  I don't think we need more female protagonists in cinema/games.  Art is art, and thus it's open to interpretation.  Now some female writers?  Yes.  Definately yes.  But I don't think feminism should be sticking your hand out and asking for a treat like a child.

I believe in feminism because without it I might not be able to vote, or have the same sort of insurance coverage at a full time job as men.  The latter in that last sentence didn't happen until 2010.  I believe in it, because it isn't okay for a man to think I owe him something just because I get a little flirty.  I believe in it, because if I choose to wear nothing, that's not an invitation for sex.  For all you know, I could be a nudist.  I believe in it because men can and do cry, and shouldn't be shamed for it.  I believe in it because there are good men in the world who are overshadowed by their horrid counterparts.  So, at the end of the day, THESE DAYS, I lean more towards a humanist perspective.  Women matter.  Black lives matter.  Men matter.  Transvestites matter.  We are all human.  We all deserve to breath and drink and think and feel, together.  At this point in time, more then ever, possibly, it's important that we stand together and stop drawing lines between men and women and other things.  We are all part of this universe.  And I think it's far more important to realize that, then to ask that we get female ghostbusters.


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## deSPIRIA (Nov 20, 2016)

Ekcriptia said:


> oh? you disagree with me? you're just internally oppressed, i feel SOO sorry for you
> hah.a.......................



ctfu spell icup 🅱rodie


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## Mints (Nov 20, 2016)

yes i am.


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## SnakeEater (Nov 30, 2016)

I see no reason to call myself one when being pro-equality is already the default position in many developed countries. I'm also not a fan of saddling myself to any group or ideology, since my opinions and thoughts on many things are varied and not limited to a particular side of the political spectrum.

Plus, women already have equal rights in the first world and therefore there is nothing to advocate for.


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## B e t h a n y (Mar 12, 2017)

I think in the past it was definitely helpful and changed things for the better. But third-wave or modern day feminism is honestly a joke. Feminists love to constantly go straight to the definition of feminism when attacked but have changed it's true meaning with the issues they support that have no correlation to the original movement. They constantly speak about women in the western world being oppressed, which isn't true in the slightest. Along with the lies of the wage gap, cultural appropriation, islamaphobia, blah blah blah. They preach about equality and that they ain't man haters, but go watch buzzfeed yo.

Basically just be an egalitarian if you want equal rights.


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## opalskiies (Mar 12, 2017)

I think nowadays we're seeing many inequalities that men face as well. I love feminism's point, and I have 0 issue with those who call themselves a feminist, but I believe that since it's becoming more obvious about struggles men also face, feminism is just no longer the correct word for it. So I do not personally identify as a feminist (or a "meninist" for that matter).


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## AppleBitterCrumble (Mar 12, 2017)

I'm not


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## watercolorwish (Mar 12, 2017)

im a feminist but i agree i do sometimes question it when i see annoying ones (me and my sister were in a march near new hampshire and everyone was wearing cat hats shouting gross things and throwing pads everywhere, what the **** were they thinking?). i think a lot of the time people mistake feminism for only being women's rights so they get thrown off, but thats not what its about. you should definitely read up a little bit before considering yourself a feminist though


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## B e t h a n y (Mar 12, 2017)

poyonomatopoeia said:


> im a feminist but i agree i do sometimes question it when i see annoying ones (me and my sister were in a march near new hampshire and everyone was wearing cat hats shouting gross things and throwing pads everywhere, what the **** were they thinking?). i think a lot of the time people mistake feminism for only being women's rights so they get thrown off, but thats not what its about. you should definitely read up a little bit before considering yourself a feminist though



I'm trying to have a debate or anything, but wouldn't you agree the original subject of feminism was womens rights? Like I said in my comment previously feminists these days support issues that have no correlation to the movement.


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## moonford (Mar 12, 2017)

Oh my glurb! I remember this thread! I said the wage gap didn't exist, how wrong was I? 

I am still a feminist, not a radical feminist. I believe in equality for everyone, feminism mostly covers women's issues so that's why I think it continues to be branded as "sexist". 

I am also an egalitarian, I believe everyone should have equal rights and opportunities. 

Egalitarianism and feminism are on the same boat but they differ a little bit, feminists mainly focus on women's problems and it's a movement while egalitarianism isn't a movement and it's solely a thought pattern/belief. The definition of feminism has been tainted over the years by extremists and ignorant people who don't know the difference between the two so they make absurd judgements and assumptions about actual feminists such as myself.


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## Romaki (Mar 12, 2017)

Yes, I don't think that a random YouTube video can change the meaning of something.


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## Haskell (Mar 12, 2017)

I don't consider myself a feminist.


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## xSuperMario64x (Mar 12, 2017)

I suppose though I don't normally associate myself with feminism.

I haven't ever really seen examples of discrimination by gender in person, but then again I've lived in cornfield Ohio my whole life xD


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## Haskell (Mar 12, 2017)

visibleghost said:


> lol relax youre being condescending af hahahah
> 
> im not saying women are the only people who have problems in society lol. but *women are victims of sexism which men arent *:^)
> 
> ...



When men get sexually assaulted and people don't believe or even take a minute to hear their story because of their gender...


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## moonford (Mar 12, 2017)

Raskell said:


> When men get sexually assaulted and people don't believe or even take a minute to hear their story because of their gender...



9 minutes and you changed your mind. Haha.

- - - Post Merge - - -



visibleghost said:


> lol relax youre being condescending af hahahah
> 
> *im not saying women are the only people who have problems in society lol. but women are victims of sexism which men arent :^)*
> 
> ...



Oh my.....


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## Haskell (Mar 12, 2017)

nintendoanna said:


> i'm all for equality and such but whenever i see a *certain buzzfeed video *or any video of a feminist tbh i cringe so bad i honestly don't know whats right or wrong in that community so i try to stay out of it as much as possible. another thing i noticed is literally no one seems to agree like there's people who say clothes don't have genders but there's people who are genderfluid who say they like dressing like either genders and i dont understand at all???????? idk man hopefully this makes sense and i dont start a big argument lol i'm just interested in peoples opinions
> also i literally didn't even answer my own question but anyways



Buzzfeed is totally a legit news source.


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## moonford (Mar 12, 2017)

Raskell said:


> When men get sexually assaulted and people don't believe or even take a minute to hear their story because of their gender...



And that needs to change, people should be equal in importance when it comes to sexual assault. Men/Women/Other should be listened to if they ever experience such things. Its not fair.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Raskell said:


> Buzzfeed is totally a legit news source.



Fox news and CNN are waaaaayyyy better. XD

Every news channel or YouTube channel that "informs" people have a biased.

Biased views are everywhere and people are going to look down upon those news channels for having the opposite viewpoint/ spread that viewpoint in a way which comes off as desperate or pathetic.

Just fyi I'm using your posts cause I couldn't be bothered finding the original posts that you replied too.


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## Haskell (Mar 12, 2017)

Whiteflamingo said:


> Fox news and CNN are waaaaayyyy better. XD



Fox News makes me mad at times. I got upset at two of their articles these past few weeks. CNN is just clickbait and propaganda. I don't even know why I read CNN articles still.


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## xSuperMario64x (Mar 12, 2017)

Raskell said:


> Fox News makes me mad at times. I got upset at two of their articles these past few weeks. CNN is just clickbait and propaganda. I don't even know why I read CNN articles still.



Pretty much every news network makes me mad. There isn't a single news network out there that isn't biased except *possibly* CNN student news. I'm not even sure about that.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Whiteflamingo said:


> Just fyi I'm using your posts cause I couldn't be bothered finding the original posts that you replied too.



You can click on the little arrows next to the person's username and it will take you to the post they replied to ^^


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## Haskell (Mar 12, 2017)

Whiteflamingo said:


> And that needs to change, people should be equal in importance when it comes to sexual assault. Men/Women/Other should be listened to if they ever experience such things. Its not fair.



Every human should be listened to yes. Most of the time they're not being manipulative or lying.

- - - Post Merge - - -



xSuperMario64x said:


> Pretty much every news network makes me mad. There isn't a single news network out there that isn't biased except *possibly* CNN student news. I'm not even sure about that.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



_Vox_,_ The Hill_,_ The Guardian_, _The Economist_, _The Fiscal Times_, _Slate_, and _The Atlantic _are all complex and analytical sources of news.


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## Sig (Mar 12, 2017)

i refuse to associate myself with feminism at all because fo radical feminists- terfs mainly- and instagram feminists that r like 15 year old girls running it


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## hamster (Mar 13, 2017)

sakura miku said:


> i refuse to associate myself with feminism at all because fo radical feminists- terfs mainly- and instagram feminists that r like 15 year old girls running it


true, but the main reason why i don't like feminism is because we don't need it anymore.
women are the most privileged in western society, these people keep pushing "we want to be equal!" but guess what, you've reached too far. my point wasn't men have it super bad too, men have it worse.


----------



## visibleghost (Mar 13, 2017)

why tf did someone bump this to compain about the thread is this forum for real .....,. cant u all go play in the basement or something bc now youre just trying to start drama and complain abt **** 



Raskell said:


> When men get sexually assaulted and people don't believe or even take a minute to hear their story because of their gender...



why are you replying to a 500 yr old post 

it's true that there are a lot of issues with gender. everyone is negatively affected by gender, gender stereotypes, hypermasculinity, rape culture (and the view many ppl in society have of sex in general) and all that stuff. gender sucks a ton and it sucks for everyone

men arent victims of sexism though. they are victims of our gendered society, gender roles and gender stereotypes but sexism isnt rly a word that imo should be used for men's issues because while men do have problems due to gender it isnt in the same ways as women who have had to and still have to fight to be seen and treated like humans. men have never had that issue because they are men. sexism isnt as big of a problem today in western society as it was before and i think thats why a lot of people think men are victims of sexism too but i really think sexism is the wrong word for these issues. 
women also have a lot of problems All Thanks To gender roles and stereotypes which ties into sexism and discrimination of women a lot.

i honestly think that gender as a concept needs to be ****ing burned and rebuilt because the way it is now is toxic to everyone. i get that we cant actually burn gender but we can work towards changing society and our views on gender. 

like i'm not saying men don't have issues, but desperately wanting to label the issues they have as sexism doesnt make a lot of sense to me.

also i'd say that modern feminism should be focused on removing all gender issues. feminism has been very focused on women because they haven't been treated well (and still arent to a certain extent, like with abortion laws etc.) but i think that many western countries have come very far with women's issues and i think that the right thing to focus on now is gender and how it Sux.



also if anyone else replies to old comments i will Die and not reply bc im not interested in reading thru the thread and trying to remember what i meant thought when i wrote those posts lol


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## mogyay (Mar 13, 2017)

visibleghost said:


> snip sry



I was reading through the thread again when I suddenly came across a really great post and it was me it's always nice realising how great my opinions are 

To echo what I previously said I belive in equality which to me makes me a feminist.  Also saying you're not a feminist cause we live in western society is bull**** 1/ still not equal 2/ feminism means believing in equality for all women not just ur own tiny bubble of western society. Until women across the globe have equal opportunities I will label myself a feminist


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## amanda1983 (Mar 13, 2017)

I am a feminist, as I have been since I was at least 13 years of age. The past 20 years have seen a lot of changes in the world, but to say that feminism is unnecessary in 2017 is just bizarre from my perspective. I am much more educated, knowledgeable, experienced, emotionally aware, compassionate, and (hopefully) wise than I was at 13. I am a better person now than I was then, and I'm a better feminist now than I was then, too.

Firstly : intersectionality is very important to understand when it comes to feminism. A great introductory article is this one : http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5269255 - for anyone inclined to critique the source, I first read this article elsewhere but have found that this link works best to share since it's accessible regardless of where you are in the world, and has no paywall.

Secondly : having equal rights on paper doesn't mean that people actually receive those equal rights and considerations. If it did, the crime rates would be negligible! So the idea that most first world countries have little-to-none problems with sexism, discrimination, and associated harmful consequences simply because there are laws against this occuring, is at best, a non sequitur.

Finally : bodily autonomy. From this link : http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/abortion/mother/for_1.shtml

"Many people regard the right to control one's own body as a key moral right. If women are not allowed to abort an unwanted foetus they are deprived of this right.

A neat little summary article of how bodily autonomy (or bodily integrity) and reproductive choices are the same thing : http://www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/2017/01/29/my-bodily-autonomy-my-choice/

I live in a country that has a reasonable level of publicly funded healthcare, including women's health and reproductive services. Which is incredibly lucky for me, as it happens, since I have severely (extremely) complicated endometriosis. That and another couple of health conditions combined means my body would be unable to maintain a pregnancy until a point where the foetus could survive outside of my uterus. I would be lucky to live until the 2nd trimester, were I foolish enough to try. The foetus would not live regardless. If I somehow accidentally fall pregnant, my choice will come down to almost certain death + loss of the foetus, or life + loss of the foetus. There is no good outcome from a choice like that, and I hope I never have to make it. It's statistically very, very unlikely that I ever would. But if it happens then I will benefit profoundly from living in a country that currently accepts my fundamental *right* to choose. In my case it is not much of a choice, but it still one that should be made by myself privately with my medical team and my partner. Who is also a feminist, and one of the best, most intelligent men I have ever met, incidentally.

If I had my medical conditions and history but lived in much of the US instead of Australia (or other countries with appropriate healthcare provisions), I might just as well be living in the dark ages. My family would have been bankrupted from my first round of surgeries alone, assuming I could have gotten diagnosed in the first place. "Planned Parenthood" doesn't just provide abortions - they would be probably the only service I could be treated at without an extraordinary private health insurance policy (which I could not afford alone, in my condition). 

For as long as my bodily autonomy rights & access to safe, appropriate health and reproductive services is dependent on the whim of the government of my geographical location, I need feminism. 




- - - Post Merge - - -

Sorry, my "Thirdly" paragraph was accidentally deleted, it covered the fact that women around the world are still not equal. So even if all was equal in my own part of the world (and it's really, really not), then I would still be a feminist trying to help women elsewhere in the world attain the same freedoms I have.


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## Weiland (Mar 13, 2017)

Well I'm not an extremist like Buzzfeed and nor am I an actual advocate but I do believe in equal pay and equal rights and all that.


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## amanda1983 (Mar 13, 2017)

Sooooooo about that feminism thing, the topic of this thread :
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/lifestyle/...n-swapped-names-at-work/ar-AAo7dQd?li=BBoPOOm

and

https://medium.com/@nickyknacks/working-while-female-59a5de3ad266#.a1bcf02tj

(which is linked in the first article)

do an excellent job of outlining the real life, real world reality of many many women. The situation was a fluke, an accident caused by the way they used their email. But it allowed this man to see just how dramatically differently *he* was treated vs *she* was. And even more so when they decided to "swap" their names for a week or so just to see how things changed - without changing anything themselves but the name on the signature line of the emails.

The woman had the "most productive time of her career" to quote him. He.. did not.


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