# Anyone else here Atheist?



## Lio Fotia (Nov 17, 2014)

I'm curious what other people are Atheist, like me. Or at the very least nonreligious. :3

EDIT: Please read this post before posting. http://www.belltreeforums.com/showt...here-Atheist&p=4159537&viewfull=1#post4159537​


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## Stevey Queen (Nov 17, 2014)

Agnostic atheist

I'm not going to believe in God until he shows himself to my face. There's no reason for him to be hiding


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## Feloreena (Nov 17, 2014)

I'm an Atheist, and have been since I was around 14/15. I was brought up a Catholic but made up my own mind at that age. My parents didn't mind as my Dad was never religious in the first place, and my Mum seemed to be losing her faith as well (funnily enough me and my siblings have all turned out to be Atheists as well). I don't believe in any God or other higher power, and I believe that even if one did exist they would not have any impact on our lives at all or be 'watching over us'.

I still have respect for people's choice of religion/non-religion, and would never try to impose my beliefs on others. However I still think it's really sad that religion has caused so many conflicts throughout history, and been responsible for a lack of scientific progression in certain points in time (particularly in the Middle Ages). I also find it sad when people are forced into a religion and really unhappy as a result of that.


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## Jarrad (Nov 17, 2014)

Atheist.

I have strong animosity towards religion. Religious people frustrate me


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## Lio Fotia (Nov 17, 2014)

I'm Atheist, I was brought up Anglican and I think that everyone has the right to believe whatever they want as long as they show respect to others.


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## Jarrad (Nov 17, 2014)

I was brought up in a semi-Christian house. My Dad's an atheist as well, however my Mum is a Christian but I think she's converted to atheism. I was christened, but I figured out at a young age that religion is just make believe.


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## Psydye (Nov 17, 2014)

Not atheist, but not religious either...I prefer to keep an open mind.


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## tamagotchi (Nov 17, 2014)

I care very little for religion. 

My siblings are mostly anti.


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## Envy (Nov 17, 2014)

I'm an atheist, too. I was raised to be Christian (mostly Methodist) but I never really believed it for myself. Although that fact was only in my subconscious throughout the vast majority of my childhood, once I learned of nonbelief, and especially when I saw that Christianity did not always equal good, the fact that I never really believed for myself was realized and I saw that altogether there was no reason to believe.

That's putting it all very simply. lol


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## HeyPatience (Nov 17, 2014)

My boyfriend and a couple friends of ours are Atheist. I would have to say I'm half and half at this point. I'm not really allowed to talk about religion at home unless its some of the more widely practiced religions such as Catholicism, Judaism, and Muslim. Anything outside of that tends to freak them out so Ive never really bothered to branch out and see what else there is. Ill probably wait until I move out so I can respect their space, and not upset them. 



Callaway said:


> I'm Atheist, I was brought up Anglican and I think that everyone has the right to believe whatever they want as long as they show respect to others.



And I agree ^ I feel like a lot of people forget that just because someone doesn't practice the same religion, or doesn't practice one at all, they still deserve respect. It really irks me when people use religion as a reason to get away with saying and doing bad things :/


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## lazuli (Nov 17, 2014)

agnostic loololollolollol
let people believe what they will but dont force it on me. funny how school thinks we're all christian/catholic JUST BECAUSE we're mexican/


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## Margot (Nov 17, 2014)

I used to think I was but it made me a very sad person.. I don't have a religion but I do have hope. Sometimes I even pray when I feel I need assistance. I usually refer to whoever I'm praying to as angels or guardian angel. It seems to help and I easily come out of the sadness that I was feeling


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## Jarrad (Nov 17, 2014)

Mistletoe said:


> I used to think I was but it made me a very sad person.. I don't have a religion but I do have hope. Sometimes I even pray when I feel I need assistance. I usually refer to whoever I'm praying to as angels or guardian angel. It seems to help and I easily come out of the sadness that I was feeling



aw thats really kind of you 

i really wish you could come to heaven with me x


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## Goth (Nov 17, 2014)

Jarrad said:


> aw thats really kind of you
> 
> i really wish you could come to heaven with me x



I hope that was a joke


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## f11 (Nov 17, 2014)

computertrash said:


> agnostic loololollolollol
> let people believe what they will but dont force it on me. funny how school thinks we're all christian/catholic JUST BECAUSE we're mexican/


this.


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## Hyoshido (Nov 17, 2014)

LoveMcQueen said:


> Agnostic atheist
> 
> I'm not going to believe in God until he shows himself to my face. There's no reason for him to be hiding


Pretty much this, I'll also force him to revive my mother too, that'd be so rad yo ͡◕ ͜ ʖ ͡◕


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## nekosync (Nov 17, 2014)

I'm an atheist. This thread reminds me of when we were discussing our personal beliefs in Religious Studies class and the minute I said "I'm an atheist", everyone turned on me.  "You don't believe in God?" "You're going to Hell." Funny how if I judged _their_ beliefs, there'd be a riot and I'd be in trouble with the teacher, but if they judge mine, it's all fine and dandy; roses and rainbows. 

Like others have said, I think it's best to believe what you believe and be respectful about what others think.


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## oranje (Nov 17, 2014)

I'm agnostic myself. I'm fine with others believing in whatever they want, as long as they don't use that belief to hurt others or force other to follow their beliefs. I think it's entirely possible that there could be some kind of "god", but certainly not the god of the  abrahamic religions. He's waaaay too human for my liking (being angry, having a huge ego, ect). If there is a god, they either sit back and don't think humans are the center of the universe or else they are so alien to us that we can't even comprehend who and what they want. But for now, I'm leaning more towards there isn't a god.


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## EmmaFrost (Nov 17, 2014)

I am.
I grew up in Russia going to a decent church, but when we moved to Canada I started going to a really scary cult-like church and it turned me off of religion forever.


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## lazuli (Nov 17, 2014)

Illyana said:


> I am.
> I grew up in Russia going to a decent church, but when we moved to Canada I started going to a really scary cult-like church and it turned me off of religion forever.



SCARY.


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## oath2order (Nov 17, 2014)

Hi yes I am


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## EmmaFrost (Nov 17, 2014)

computertrash said:


> SCARY.


It really was scary. It was the kind you see on TV where people fall down and start speaking in tongues and act possessed because they're receiving the "holy ghost". And people were forbidden to cut their hair, wear makeup, jewelry, watch tv, wear pants if they were female, etc etc. So yeah basically I'll never go to church again, even though I'm well aware that very few are like that one.


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## Psydye (Nov 17, 2014)

oranje said:


> I think it's entirely possible that there could be some kind of "god", but certainly not the god of the  abrahamic religions.



Yeah...he comes off as a bit of an a**hole, lol. Ethnic cleansing and all that good stuff!


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## Margot (Nov 17, 2014)

Jarrad said:


> aw thats really kind of you
> 
> i really wish you could come to heaven with me x



It's funny because my town is named Heaven .o. Was that the joke or am I just lame


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## oranje (Nov 17, 2014)

Psydye said:


> Yeah...he comes off as a bit of an a**hole, lol. Ethnic cleansing and all that good stuff!



Yup. That and demanding that humans worship him. Why does it matter if you have so much power? Why do you have such a huge ego if you are so above anything and everything? See, although I don't think I'd ever follow another philosophy, if I did, I'd totally be Buddhist. There's order without the need for a god, it's not human-centric, and you are supposed to be kind and respect all living things, not just humans.


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## HeyPatience (Nov 17, 2014)

nekosync said:


> I'm an atheist. This thread reminds me of when we were discussing our personal beliefs in Religious Studies class and the minute I said "I'm an atheist", everyone turned on me.  "You don't believe in God?" "You're going to Hell." Funny how if I judged _their_ beliefs, there'd be a riot and I'd be in trouble with the teacher, but if they judge mine, it's all fine and dandy; roses and rainbows.
> 
> Like others have said, I think it's best to believe what you believe and be respectful about what others think.



That reminds me of a time in a Cultural Anthropology class I took there was a really Christian guy in there. One day we were doing a class activity where we talked about what mas us, well us. And when I said I wasnt religious, and that my mom had me at 16 he yelled "YOU'RE GOING TO HELL!" The teacher did nothing about it when I brought up how rude he was to me after class, and she essentially told me to get over it and he was joking =_=;

I could go on and on about this guy...


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## Psydye (Nov 17, 2014)

'Thing is, I don't necessarily have a problem w/ religion as WHOLE, necessarily, so long as people got the spiritual values down, i.e. being good and do unto others as you do unto them, y' know? Basic moral stuff. When you start crossing over into all the creed and dogma I DO kind of roll my eyes(hence my problem w/ the Old Testament God..'bit of a jerk.)


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## Leela (Nov 17, 2014)

nekosync said:


> I'm an atheist. This thread reminds me of when we were discussing our personal beliefs in Religious Studies class and the minute I said "I'm an atheist", everyone turned on me.  "You don't believe in God?" "You're going to Hell." Funny how if I judged _their_ beliefs, there'd be a riot and I'd be in trouble with the teacher, but if they judge mine, it's all fine and dandy; roses and rainbows.
> 
> Like others have said, I think it's best to believe what you believe and be respectful about what others think.



So, were you the one person that didn't believe in God? That's funny, because in my RS class there's one Christian and everyone else is atheist. No one judges her for it though, since people in my class are generally respectful about things like this. I just wish _everyone_ was like that. It really annoys me when people react in the way your class did.


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## NikkiNikki (Nov 17, 2014)

I am not an Atheist, I believe in God and follow the scriptures . I know I am commenting in a thread that I don't belong in, but please guys be respectful about others beliefs. I would love to talk about what i believe, but I don't want to cause "problems". and I understand what some you go through with some people being disrespectful about your beliefs, just remember though every group of anything has their batch of a-holes. I am sorry that some of you go through that. it really irks me when they called themselves Christians and do these things thinking that God is pleased of them doing this, but hey there are always people like that in this world.


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## Punchy-kun (Nov 17, 2014)

Atheism is pretty much a religion on its own though. 
I'm not atheist, but a Christian. I personally find the existance of a God obvious.
EDIT: Completely second the above post


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## Jaebeommie (Nov 17, 2014)

Roman Catholic here, but I love people of all religions so long as they don't automatically dismiss me as one of those disrespectful, condescending people who call themselves "Christian".


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## Brackets (Nov 17, 2014)

Punchy-kun said:


> Atheism is pretty much a religion on its own though.
> I'm not atheist, but a Christian. I personally find the existance of a God obvious.



atheism is not a religion -it's the absence of a belief in a god. There's no texts, no specific beliefs, no guidelines to follow, no ceremonies.


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## NikkiNikki (Nov 17, 2014)

Annachie said:


> atheism is not a religion -it's the absence of a belief in a god. There's no texts, no specific beliefs, no guidelines to follow, no ceremonies.



but isn't religion a group of individuals that believe the same thing?


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## HeyPatience (Nov 17, 2014)

NikkiNikki said:


> I am not an Atheist, I believe in God and follow the scriptures . I know I am commenting in a thread that I don't belong in, but please guys be respectful about others beliefs. I would love to talk about what i believe, but I don't want to cause "problems". and I understand what some you go through with some people being disrespectful about your beliefs, just remember though every group of anything has their batch of a-holes. I am sorry that some of you go through that. it really irks me when they called themselves Christians and do these things thinking that God is pleased of them doing this, but hey there are always people like that in this world.



Of course every bunch of apples will have rotten ones. There's no doubt about that. I have a few friends who are very religious, who so happen to be Christian, and they're some of the most awesome and open minded people I know. To me its always exciting to hear/ be apart of a group thats openly talking about what our beliefs are in a calm discussion. I feel thats how things should be, but that's more of a fantasy than a reality


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## Brackets (Nov 17, 2014)

NikkiNikki said:


> but isn't religion a group of individuals that believe the same thing?



do atheists believe the same thing? No. The only thing that atheists share is a LACK of a belief in a deity.


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## NikkiNikki (Nov 17, 2014)

HeyPatience said:


> Of course every bunch of apples will have rotten ones. There's no doubt about that. I have a few friends who are very religious, who so happen to be Christian, and they're some of the most awesome and open minded people I know. To me its always exciting to hear/ be apart of a group thats openly talking about what our beliefs are in a calm discussion. I feel thats how things should be, but that's more of a fantasy than a reality


Yeah, I wish things can be like that too with everyone and it can happen, but you know people..i guess

- - - Post Merge - - -



Annachie said:


> do atheists believe the same thing? No. The only thing that atheists share is a LACK of a belief in a deity.



Ehh I see what you mean, but they all have a common thing you know?


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## Sanaki (Nov 17, 2014)

Yep I'm atheist.


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## Brackets (Nov 17, 2014)

NikkiNikki said:


> Ehh I see what you mean, but they all have a common thing you know?



Well yeah they have that in common, but why would that make it a religion?


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## lazuli (Nov 17, 2014)

NikkiNikki said:


> Yeah, I wish things can be like that too with everyone and it can happen, but you know people..i guess
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



well so do people who like the colour blue but theres no blue religion.

=

has anybody heard of the religion of the flying spaghetti monster ??? thats funny.


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## The Hidden Owl (Nov 17, 2014)

Annachie said:


> atheism is not a religion -it's the absence of a belief in a god. There's no texts, no specific beliefs, no guidelines to follow, no ceremonies.


It's more like an ignorance of the belief in a god.


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## Grawr (Nov 17, 2014)

I'm an atheist.

I, like most atheists, would never make the claim that a "God" absolutely 100% for-sure doesn't exist. 

I just believe it's very VERY unlikely, and I've never seen even the sliiiightest hint of evidence in favor of an existing God - so I don't believe there is one.

- - - Post Merge - - -



The Hidden Owl said:


> It's more like an ignorance of the belief in a god.



"Ignorance" isn't really the right word to use there. It's just NOT believing in a God, there's not really any ignorance involved.


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## Ashtot (Nov 17, 2014)

Most people hate religion (especially Christianity) because they've had negative experiences with Christians and/or Church. It sucks because there are a lot of Christians that don't know what they're talking about and have a negative influence on the people around them instead of a positive one. I'm a Christian myself, but I don't go forcing my beliefs on anybody, because there isn't any reason to do so. For me, Church has always been an exciting place, I've always loved it. But I know for many people in my life it isn't/wasn't/hasn't been that way for them. There are a lot of different factors. There have been plenty of Churches I've been to where it was just really boring and nothing really went on there that made me think "this is awesome!", and I've met many Christians that really didn't know what it meant to be a Christian, and didn't really have proper knowledge of Christianity due to them not reading the Bible etc. 

One of the biggest arguments against Religion is "if there is a god, why doesn't he show himself, why doesn't he come down here and make me believe?". At least from my standpoint, this isn't exactly the way God works. There's a verse in the Bible somewhere about seeking God and finding him, if someone really wants to find him, I think they need to look in the right places depending on circumstance. I know that I have "found" God and he's shown himself to me and others in some really incredible ways, some that are hard to believe for most people. Another reason that a god wouldn't intervene just randomly and do whatever we want, or make the world a perfect place etc. (another common argument) is because we have the concept of free will which affects everything. If a god were to come and fix everything and have everything be perfect there would be no such thing as free will. A Christians job is supposed to be loving others and sharing the story of Jesus with them, not shove it down their throats. Hopefully that all made some kind of sense.

There are a lot of really weak arguments against the Bible and Christianity such as Leviticus 11:7-8 which states: 7 And the pig, though it has a divided hoof, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. 8 You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.

The thing is a lot of people use the old testament laws as a "the Bible contradicts itself" card, where in reality the old law was abolished when Jesus came into the world and died for our sins (again this is going by Christian beliefs). In other words it isn't contradictory. 

There are other things mentioned even in the new testament that would seem to apply to us in today's society but really don't. On the top of my head I can think of a part in 1 Corinthians spoken by Paul that mentions that women should essentially keep their hair long and men should keep their hair short, this was one of the only customs of the only church but was completely due to cultural significance. In this time period female prostitutes generally wore their hair short for different reasons, and male prostitutes wore their hair long. So what Paul was saying is that it would be counter productive to have their hair cut in similar fashions when not actually prostitutes. It would make the church seem like something it isn't. Context is a huge part of reading and studying the Bible that most people don't even care to think about.

There is also a lot of evidence out there to things that happened in the Bible. You don't have to believe that Jesus rose from the dead, or even that there is a god, but you can't deny plain facts. When they are presented. Most of the time the media doesn't cover anything like this because it's controversial and Christianity is presented in a bad light, as well as Islam.

As for evidence of miracles and things like that, I've seen plenty of things like that, but as I said early, most people wouldn't believe that they've actually happened until they see them for themselves (I've seen atheists converted to Christianity, after seeing and feeling things like this).

This was kinda long and I just decided to post for fun I guess I wasn't trying to start some kind of huge debate or anything.

But yeah to answer the question I'm not atheist, haha. Even if I wasn't a Christian I would probably need to believe in something, just because it's the way I am, I would need to have some kind of reason for being alive.


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## Brackets (Nov 17, 2014)

The Hidden Owl said:


> It's more like an ignorance of the belief in a god.



That's pretty rude. I would never say religious people are ignorant. No, it's not ignorance, I just don't see enough evidence to have a belief in a god.


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## The Hidden Owl (Nov 17, 2014)

Ashtot said:


> -snip-


Also, if people were to see God, due to the sin nature in humans, people would still be stubborn and live their own life. God is not going to make you believe in Him, it is the choice of the human. What atheists believe is not just that God doesn't exist, is that they don't want any higher authority to control the way they live. They want to live their own life and not have to conform to the way that God wants them to. Once again, a result of our sin nature.


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## Ashtot (Nov 17, 2014)

The Hidden Owl said:


> Also, if people were to see God, due to the sin nature in humans, people would still be stubborn and live their own life. God is not going to make you believe in Him, it is the choice of the human. What atheists believe is not just that God doesn't exist, is that they don't want any higher authority to control the way they live. They want to live their own life and not have to conform to the way that God wants them to. Once again, a result of our sin nature.



I have to agree with the majority of what you said. Jesus came, he was alive, but there were still people that didn't believe. You explained that really well, thanks. I'm not too good at talking sometimes, haha.


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## The Hidden Owl (Nov 17, 2014)

Annachie said:


> That's pretty rude. I would never say religious people are ignorant. No, it's not ignorance, I just don't see enough evidence to have a belief in a god.


The evidence is all around you! You really think that evolution was capable of "creating" all of nature? Boom, the earth exists and humans evolve from apes. And where does the 2nd law of thermodynamics come in? Nature points to a creator.


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## Ashtot (Nov 17, 2014)

The Hidden Owl said:


> The evidence is all around you! You really think that evolution was capable of "creating" all of nature? Boom, the earth exists and humans evolve from apes. And where does the 2nd law of thermodynamics come in? Nature points to a creator.



I've talked to a few philosophy professors from a local University who are theists because of that. Nature does point to a creator. I'm not sure why so many atheists connect atheism to science and evolution, when in reality they clash more than they coexist.


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## The Hidden Owl (Nov 17, 2014)

Also, I'm not trying to force anything on anyone, but i'm just showing the evidence and what I believe as a Christian.


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## NikkiNikki (Nov 17, 2014)

computertrash said:


> well so do people who like the colour blue but theres no blue religion.



that really doesn't have anything to do with what i'm talking about._. 



Annachie said:


> Well yeah they have that in common, but why would that make it a religion?



From what I am understanding (and I have done some research) There is really no definite definition of the word religion and is really difficult to define it. The main thing we know about religion is that its a group of people who believe in the supernatural things on a spiritual level. The word Atheism is basically someone who doesn't believe in a God or anything supernatural. The common word is believe (or have faith or lack of faith) either believe or not to believe it is still a common thing. We have a group of people who don't believe and have their reasons, same to does who do believe. That's my understanding on it then I read this article; supposedly in the article that I read says atheism is a religion. The way they did is that they broken it down into seven dimensions which are narrative, experiential, social, ethical, doctrinal, ritual and material. However, of course not every religion has every dimension. 

Here the article I don't want to turn this into an essay since i have one that i need to finish lol http://creation.com/atheism-a-religion


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## Brackets (Nov 17, 2014)

The Hidden Owl said:


> The evidence is all around you! You really think that evolution was capable of "creating" all of nature? Boom, the earth exists and humans evolve from apes. And where does the 2nd law of thermodynamics come in? Nature points to a creator.



This thread is for atheists, not for you to preach and imply that we're all stupid.

By the way, you're implying that evolution happened suddenly, when actually it takes millions of years. And the earth didn't suddenly form either.
The 2nd law of thermodynamics only applies to a closed system. Creationists seem to conveniently forget that the earth is NOT a closed system, because we keep getting more and more energy from the sun.


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## Beary (Nov 17, 2014)

CAN WE NOT ARGUE ABOUT THIS

ANYWAYS, I am Agnostic. You can believe in what you want, I don't mind. 


Spoiler: WARNING MUCH BIAS READ AT YOUR OWN DISCRETION



I don't really think god exists, I believe in evolution and the big bang and all that. But God may still be out there, and I'm ready to believe if He shows Himself.
I may be pretty insensitive about God, but people can believe what, how, and where ever they want. I just don't want self-applied guilt about 'sins' to make me even more depressed than I already am, thanks.


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## Geoni (Nov 17, 2014)

Atheism is indeed not a religion. 

Also I'm an atheist but I get a lot of philosophical inspiration from various religions.


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## Cazqui (Nov 17, 2014)

Sorta Buddhist/Atheist. I live life pertaining to more Buddhist ideals/Philosphy but I don't really see any reason to believe a God exists, at least not the one depicted as kind and loving.


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## Brackets (Nov 17, 2014)

NikkiNikki said:


> that really doesn't have anything to do with what i'm talking about._.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Atheism isn't a religion because its just a LACK of belief in something. You wouldn't group people who don't like pasta together and call it a religion, would you? No, because all they share is a LACK of an enjoyment in pasta. Literally all we share is that lack of belief, we don't have any texts of ceremonies or anything. We don't 'follow' anything. Well thats my view on it anyway.


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## oranje (Nov 17, 2014)

Beary said:


> CAN WE NOT ARGUE ABOUT THIS



It's pointless to argue when no one is going to convince the other of anything. It's better to just state our opinions and just move on. I really like this thread and I don't want it to close.


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## Beary (Nov 17, 2014)

oranje said:


> It's pointless to argue when no one is going to convince the other of anything. It's better to just state our opinions and just move on. I really like this thread and I don't want it to close.



Couldn't have said it better myself.


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## Ashtot (Nov 17, 2014)

Annachie said:


> This thread is for atheists, not for you to preach and imply that we're all stupid.
> 
> By the way, you're implying that evolution happened suddenly, when actually it takes millions of years. And the earth didn't suddenly form either.
> The 2nd law of thermodynamics only applies to a closed system. Creationists seem to conveniently forget that the earth is NOT a closed system, because we keep getting more and more energy from the sun.



I don't think anyone was implying that you're stupid.


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## NikkiNikki (Nov 17, 2014)

oranje said:


> It's pointless to argue when no one is going to convince the other of anything. It's better to just state our opinions and just move on. I really like this thread and I don't want it to close.



I really don't understand we are not arguing just discussing about it.


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## Grawr (Nov 17, 2014)

oranje said:


> It's pointless to argue when no one is going to convince the other of anything. It's better to just state our opinions and just move on. I really like this thread and I don't want it to close.



To claim that "no one is going to convince the other of anything" is a little silly, I think. We're human beings, we're not made of stone.

Conversation, especially this sort of conversation, promotes thinking. And thinking can lead to change - or as I'd like to see it, personal growth and development.


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## Brackets (Nov 17, 2014)

Ashtot said:


> I've talked to a few philosophy professors from a local University who are theists because of that. Nature does point to a creator. I'm not sure why so many atheists connect atheism to science and evolution, when in reality they clash more than they coexist.



I'm interested to know how you think atheism clashes with science and evolution? Not being argumentative, I'm just interested to hear why you think that.


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## NikkiNikki (Nov 17, 2014)

Annachie said:


> Atheism isn't a religion because its just a LACK of belief in something. You wouldn't group people who don't like pasta together and call it a religion, would you? No, because all they share is a LACK of an enjoyment in pasta. Literally all we share is that lack of belief, we don't have any texts of ceremonies or anything. We don't 'follow' anything. Well thats my view on it anyway.


Okay I respect your views and I view it a different way, so now we both know our views on it. We will leave it like that.

Also I said supernatural things, food isn't a supernatural thing haha


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## Grawr (Nov 17, 2014)

Annachie said:


> I'm interested to know how you think atheism clashes with science and evolution? Not being argumentative, I'm just interested to hear why you think that.



I too am interested in hearing how they clash, Ash. Especially when you consider the fact that most of our time's great scientific minds and innovators tend to be atheists.


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## NikkiNikki (Nov 17, 2014)

Grawr said:


> To claim that "no one is going to convince the other of anything" is a little silly, I think. We're human beings, we're not made of stone.
> 
> Conversation, especially this sort of conversation, promotes thinking. And thinking can lead to change - or as I'd like to see it, personal growth and development.



I agree with you.


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## oranje (Nov 17, 2014)

NikkiNikki said:


> I really don't understand we are not arguing just discussing about it.



So far everyone's been civil, but I've seen threads like this before end up turning into huge fights online. I just hope it stays this way.


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## Brackets (Nov 17, 2014)

NikkiNikki said:


> I agree with you.



Me too - I think debates and conversations (as long as there's no name-calling etc) are healthy and even if your view doesn't change, it is good for people to see both sides of the argument and think a bit more about why they believe what they do.


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## Geoni (Nov 17, 2014)

I think no matter what you believe you can find a positive understanding of the world and the self by exploring other religions and what they have to say. Not just the teachers/figures in that religion but the ways in which people live in accordance with their particular beliefs. There's a sort of deeper understanding of humanity that comes with this, although I guess you can call it anthropology in a sense. 

But that's just my view on my own atheism and religion in general.


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## Ashtot (Nov 17, 2014)

Grawr said:


> I too am interested in hearing how they clash, Ash. Especially when you consider the fact that most of our time's great scientific minds and innovators tend to be atheists.



I suppose I worded that wrong. I wouldn't say they clash, but I would say that science has an easier time pointing to theism rather than atheism. I would go into more detail but I really suck at explaining things and I would need my brother to help me write it out, haha.

Also I have to agree that conversation like this is really great, I love threads like this! I love seeing everyone's views and opinions.


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## Grawr (Nov 17, 2014)

Ashtot said:


> I suppose I worded that wrong. I wouldn't say they clash, but I would say that science has an easier time pointing to theism rather than atheism. I would go into more detail but I really suck at explaining things and I would need my brother to help me write it out, haha.
> 
> Also I have to agree that conversation like this is really great, I love threads like this! I love seeing everyone's views and opinions.



I'm not sure where you're getting that information from. 

Stephen Hawking, a theoretical physicist and cosmologist, Neil Degrasse Tyson, an astrophysicist and cosmologist, Richard Dawkins, an evolutionary biologist and ethologist, Albert Einstein, and a long list of other brilliant scientists would strongly disagree with you.


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## oranje (Nov 17, 2014)

Dad said:


> I think no matter what you believe you can find a positive understanding of the world and the self by exploring other religions and what they have to say. Not just the teachers/figures in that religion but the ways in which people live in accordance with their particular beliefs. There's a sort of deeper understanding of humanity that comes with this, although I guess you can call it anthropology in a sense.
> 
> But that's just my view on my own atheism and religion in general.



I agree with that. I think it's entirely possible to be atheist/agnostic and be spiritual at the same time. There are different forms of spirituality that don't involve a god or a popular theory of god. 

My personal beef though, in particular with Christianity is that if you're not Christian, you won't go into Heaven. I always thought that was a little messed up. Why does it matter what you believe in? If you're a good person, you should be allowed to go into Heaven. Why does God care so much whether you believe in him or not?  He's God, why does he give a care about humans, when there are greater things in the universe? Why are humans more worthy than stars, atoms, all the flora and fauna of the earth and of other planets unknown to us? Just because we are made in the image of God? Just because we have intelligence and will? Idk. It seems too human-centric for my liking.


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## Watchingthetreetops (Nov 17, 2014)

I'm agnostic.  I met a young pagan the other day, who told me all about their lore, and about fairies and such.  I try to be pretty open and keep my judgments to myself when it comes to these sorts of things.  Though I believe in God myself, I think it's a good thing that you have your own beliefs and are content with them.  I think acceptance is much more beautiful then any religion, to be honest. 

Not to say that other religions don't have their beauty.  I spent a long time studying different religions and testing my spirituality to see what I truly believe in.  What I came to is that what is most important is that I have my beliefs and respect other people's beliefs, as well.  I think there's some beautiful words in a lot of different teachings from around the world.


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## Grawr (Nov 17, 2014)

Watchingthetreetops said:


> I'm agnostic.  I met a young pagan the other day, who told me all about their lore, and about fairies and such.  I try to be pretty open and keep my judgments to myself when it comes to these sorts of things.  Though I believe in God myself, I think it's a good thing that you have your own beliefs and are content with them.  I think acceptance is much more beautiful then any religion, to be honest.
> 
> Not to say that other religions don't have their beauty.  I spent a long time studying different religions and testing my spirituality to see what I truly believe in.  What I came to is that what is most important is that I have my beliefs and respect other people's beliefs, as well.  I think there's some beautiful words in a lot of different teachings from around the world.



I don't think I've ever heard someone say "I'm an agnostic," and also "I believe in God." Could you explain what you mean? It sounds like you're a theist or deist, not just agnostic.


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## NikkiNikki (Nov 17, 2014)

oranje said:


> I agree with that. I think it's entirely possible to be atheist/agnostic and be spiritual at the same time. There are different forms of spirituality that don't involve a god or a popular theory of god.
> 
> My personal beef though, in particular with Christianity is that if you're not Christian, you won't go into Heaven. I always thought that was a little messed up. Why does it matter what you believe in? If you're a good person, you should be allowed to go into Heaven. Why does God care so much whether you believe in him or not?  He's God, why does he give a care about humans, when there are greater things in the universe? Why are humans more worthy than stars, atoms, all the flora and fauna of the earth and of other planets unknown to us? Just because we are made in the image of God? Just because we have intelligence and will? Idk. It seems too human-centric for my liking.



Okay can I share with you with what I believe on what you are saying? I am asking permission because I don't want to start something with you or if you are not willing to listen to what i have to say then i won't waste my time.


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## Beary (Nov 17, 2014)

oranje said:


> I agree with that. I think it's entirely possible to be atheist/agnostic and be spiritual at the same time. There are different forms of spirituality that don't involve a god or a popular theory of god.
> 
> My personal beef though, in particular with Christianity is that if you're not Christian, you won't go into Heaven. I always thought that was a little messed up. Why does it matter what you believe in? If you're a good person, you should be allowed to go into Heaven. Why does God care so much whether you believe in him or not?  He's God, why does he give a care about humans, when there are greater things in the universe? Why are humans more worthy than stars, atoms, all the flora and fauna of the earth and of other planets unknown to us? Just because we are made in the image of God? Just because we have intelligence and will? Idk. It seems too human-centric for my liking.



I agree with this.


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## Watchingthetreetops (Nov 17, 2014)

Grawr said:


> I don't think I've ever heard someone say "I'm an agnostic," and also "I believe in God." Could you explain what you mean? It sounds like you're a theist or deist, not agnostic.



On a personal level, I believe in God.  But if it is scientifically proven that there is no God, then I have no qualms with changing my beliefs, and accepting that I have been wrong about the universe.  Until such a thing is proven, however, I believe in God.  It's as simple as that.

To be a bit more specific, I don't really believe there is one single religion.  I claim no faith to one or another, although I do think looking at religions from a learning perspective can be an interesting ordeal.  To be agnostic, to me, is this: I believe that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena.

Basically, I believe in God, but I don't have a specific following of that belief.  I don't believe you need to be Muslim or Christian to believe in God.  I don't really think anything is known about life after death, and it can't be known until we die.


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## oranje (Nov 17, 2014)

NikkiNikki said:


> Okay can I share with you with what I believe on what you are saying? I am asking permission because I don't want to start something with you or if you are not willing to listen to what i have to say then i won't waste my time.



Go ahead.  I'm genuinely curious. I don't have a lot of religious friends so I could never have a conversation like this.


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## Brackets (Nov 17, 2014)

oranje said:


> My personal beef though, in particular with Christianity is that if you're not Christian, you won't go into Heaven. I always thought that was a little messed up. Why does it matter what you believe in? If you're a good person, you should be allowed to go into Heaven.



Yeah I never liked that either. I know not all christians believe that though, but some I know definitely do. And I just think that would be so unfair of God - like what if you're born into a strict family of another religion, and would be disowned if you converted to christianity? How could God ever expect you to 'be saved' then? Just doesn't seem fair. I think it should just be on how good a person you are.


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## Grawr (Nov 17, 2014)

Watchingthetreetops said:


> On a personal level, I believe in God.  But if it is scientifically proven that there is no God, then I have no qualms with changing my beliefs, and accepting that I have been wrong about the universe.  Until such a thing is proven, however, I believe in God.  It's as simple as that.



"Agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of God, as well as other religious and metaphysical claims—are unknown or unknowable."

"Theism, in the field of comparative religion, is the belief that at least one deity exists."

So you're an agnostic theist, by those definitions?

Quite often I hear people describe themselves as agnostic without really going into what the definition of that is. Because I'm agnostic too, but that doesn't accurately describe my beliefs. I'm an agnostic atheist, by the definitions of the words.


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## Brackets (Nov 17, 2014)

Watchingthetreetops said:


> On a personal level, I believe in God.  But if it is scientifically proven that there is no God, then I have no qualms with changing my beliefs, and accepting that I have been wrong about the universe.  Until such a thing is proven, however, I believe in God.  It's as simple as that.



But.. it can't ever be proven that there is no God. So surely you'll always believe in God, so surely you're a theist?


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## Gabby (Nov 17, 2014)

I am a firm believer in our lord and saviour, Lil B, the based god.


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## Angelmarina (Nov 17, 2014)

Hi, I'm sort of atheist, I've been back and forth between atheist and agnostic for most of my life actually. ^^ My birth mother is catholic but my adopted mom is Christian and she has forced me to go to church and practice her religion since I was 11 years old. I agree that there are a lot of christians that scare people away from their religion just because of how they present themselves around the world because christianity is a very popular religion. Since I was forced into the religion myself I know a lot of about it and quite frankly I have to say that I hate it and I don't believe in any of it because it doesn't make sense to me, thats my opinion though, not an argument, but I don't hate the people who choose to practice it and I have plenty of friends who are christian as well. I just get really upset when people say they are in a religion and then they go out and contradict everything their religion stands for and then go back to church and act like they did nothing wrong. My pastor in the church I would go to would always say that you should be the same person outside of church that you are inside of church. That was one thing that just really bothered me because a religion is like a commitment, and I feel like you should be committed to it if you are going to practice it but I've seen a lot of people who say they practice that religion and don't act like it unless they are desperate and need something and thats when they turn to it. Thats how i feel about religion in general, I'm sure I have bias but anyone who has been forced into doing something is not going to like it. ^^


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## SteveyTaco (Nov 17, 2014)

I'm atheist, mainly because I hate bigots so much.


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## NikkiNikki (Nov 17, 2014)

On the whole science thing; One of the recent things i have heard that scientist have discovered was that they found out that water on earth is much older than earth itself. Supposedly scientist says that Earth?s water came from ice in comets and asteroids that formed in a cooler environment, and later collided with our planet. and they question themselves well where did the comets and asteroids get the water? BUT if we go to the bible in Genesis right in the beginning it says "God created the sky and the earth. At first the earth was completely empty there was nothing on earth. Darkness cover the ocean, and God's spirit moved over the water" Gen 1:1-2 You see I go with what the bible says. The bible is like a manual for us to learn/understand about God and the way he wants us to live. I really don't believe in the whole "Oh there isn't of evidence of a God" but there is lot of it.


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## Brackets (Nov 17, 2014)

NikkiNikki said:


> On the whole science thing; One of the recent things i have heard that scientist have discovered was that they found out that water on earth is much older than earth itself. Supposedly scientist says that Earth’s water came from ice in comets and asteroids that formed in a cooler environment, and later collided with our planet. and they question themselves well where did the comets and asteroids get the water? BUT if we go to the bible in Genesis right in the beginning it says "God created the sky and the earth. At first the earth was completely empty there was nothing on earth. Darkness cover the ocean, and God's spirit moved over the water" Gen 1:1-2 You see I go with what the bible says. The bible is like a manual for us to learn/understand about God and the way he wants us to live. I really don't believe in the whole "Oh there isn't of evidence of a God" but there is lot of it.


But to me that seems like you're basically saying that because finding the answers to things is too difficult, you just say God did it.


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## Ashtot (Nov 17, 2014)

Annachie said:


> But to me that seems like you're basically saying that because finding the answers to things is too difficult, you just say God did it.



I think she's saying that God is the reason that certain things have happened, such as evolution, the big bang, etc. (correct me if I'm wrong).


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## Grawr (Nov 17, 2014)

Ashtot said:


> I think she's saying that God is the reason that certain things have happened, such as evolution, the big bang, etc. (correct me if I'm wrong).



Where's the evidence of that being true? Absence of evidence of it being false isn't evidence in favor of its truth, either.


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## Angelmarina (Nov 17, 2014)

Grawr said:


> Where's the evidence of that being true? Absence of evidence of it being false isn't evidence in favor of its truth, either.



I don't think thats what they meant, I think its more about the conveniency of the unexplainable. Generally when we can't explain something we turn to god, ghosts, or science to explain it for us.


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## Grawr (Nov 17, 2014)

Angelmarina said:


> I don't think thats what they meant, I think its more about the conveniency of the unexplainable. Generally when we can't explain something we turn to god, ghosts, or science to explain it for us.



That certainly seems to be true for a lotta' folks, I agree.


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## Ashtot (Nov 17, 2014)

Grawr said:


> Where's the evidence of that being true? Absence of evidence of it being false isn't evidence in favor of its truth, either.



Well there is bias involved. She's speaking from a Christian perspective so she's going to consider the Bible as fact instead of fiction.


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## NikkiNikki (Nov 17, 2014)

Annachie said:


> But to me that seems like you're basically saying that because finding the answers to things is too difficult, you just say God did it.



I believe science should be more about how things are made out like for example our bodies. In the bible we know God made man like his image. There really isn't much description of it, but because of science we now know we are filled with millions of cells and bacteria and how our body works and all that kind of stuff. When we move on to space and the world from what I have seen scientist are trying to find a way to say that there isn't a God and that we are an evolution of apes? Its okay to look for the answers about things, but the whole water is older than the Earth is nothing new to me. I love science, but sometimes there are things that bothers me on some of their discoveries.


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## Beary (Nov 17, 2014)

Angelmarina said:


> I don't think thats what they meant, I think its more about the conveniency of the unexplainable. Generally when we can't explain something we turn to god, ghosts, or science to explain it for us.



It's human nature to look for answers, even if there aren't any.
It's hard to explain the unexplainable.


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## sej (Nov 17, 2014)

I am a strong Atheist. I am never going to believe in god unless I have solid proof.


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## Brackets (Nov 17, 2014)

NikkiNikki said:


> I believe science should be more about how things are made out like for example our bodies. In the bible we know God made man like his image. There really isn't much description of it, but because of science we now know we are filled with millions of cells and bacteria and how our body works and all that kind of stuff. When we move on to space and the world from what I have seen scientist are trying to find a way to say that there isn't a God and that we are an evolution of apes? Its okay to look for the answers about things, but the whole water is older than the Earth is nothing new to me. I love science, but sometimes there are things that bothers me on some of their discoveries.



But there's so much evidence that we evolved from apes, it's not like scientists are just throwing out wild ideas for fun


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## Punchy-kun (Nov 17, 2014)

To me, something designed must have a designer. A law(physics for example) must have a law giver. To me it's obvious that plants, animals, humans are designed, being faaar more complex than any human creation. 
I find that overwhelming proof to be honest 

I don't believe that forcing a belief will really ever work. But I believe that if an honest person seeks the truth he will find it. (Or the truth will find him?  )

Also great post of Ashtot earlier: http://www.belltreeforums.com/showt...here-Atheist&p=4155680&viewfull=1#post4155680 
Just wanted to say thank you for that


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## Reindeer (Nov 17, 2014)

Wow, I would have never expected this kind of ****storm in this kind of thread. 

I have no religion and I don't believe in a god. If you want to group me into atheists go ahead but I think that the way the majority of them (or at least the loudest of them) deal with religion is utterly ridiculous and shameful.
That also goes for religious people trying to convert others with "but look at allllllll this proof : D".


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## NikkiNikki (Nov 17, 2014)

Annachie said:


> But there's so much evidence that we evolved from apes, it's not like scientists are just throwing out wild ideas for fun



Okay then why there are still apes around? if we did evolved from them then there shouldn't be any apes in the jungles? right?


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## Brackets (Nov 17, 2014)

Reindeer said:


> Wow, I would have never expected this kind of ****storm in this kind of thread.
> 
> I have no religion and I don't believe in a god. If you want to group me into atheists go ahead but I think that the way the majority of them (or at least the loudest of them) deal with religion is utterly ridiculous and shameful.
> That also goes for religious people trying to convert others with "but look at allllllll this proof : D".



There's not really a ****storm tbh


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## Jeremy (Nov 17, 2014)

Evolution means humans and apes came from the same ancestor, not that humans came from the apes you see today.


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## The Hidden Owl (Nov 17, 2014)

NikkiNikki said:


> Okay then why there are still apes around? if we did evolved from them then there shouldn't be any apes in the jungles? right?


Also, why don't we see any apes evolving today?


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## Reindeer (Nov 17, 2014)

NikkiNikki said:


> Okay then why there are still apes around? if we did evolved from them then there shouldn't be any apes in the jungles? right?


But if 3DS systems were made then why are DS systems still around? They should all be erased from existence? Right?

We all evolved from a common ancestor. The things you see in jungles around the world are not what we evolved _from_, it's what evolved _alongside us_. Evolution doesn't have a will, so it doesn't go "ok i made something better time to erase the old now". If something is able to survive in nature, then its genes will enter into the gene pool and start spreading, eventually making the species evolve into a different creature. Because mutations occur in individuals and not the entire species at once, that also means that they can branch off into two or more directions. That's why there's you sitting behind your keyboard but also apes in trees.


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## Trundle (Nov 17, 2014)

Ashtot said:


> There are a lot of really weak arguments against the Bible and Christianity such as Leviticus 11:7-8 which states: 7 And the pig, though it has a divided hoof, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. 8 You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.
> 
> The thing is a lot of people use the old testament laws as a "the Bible contradicts itself" card, where in reality the old law was abolished when Jesus came into the world and died for our sins (again this is going by Christian beliefs). In other words it isn't contradictory.



To further this idea and explain how Jesus would abolish this law, when Jesus was on the cross, there was the earthquake, and the curtain in the temple tore in two (which was physically impossible to happen at the time by any manpower or machine). I don't want to confuse anyone through detailed significance of this but in the end, Jesus' death was the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. That's why you hear "Jesus died for your sins". He was literally a sacrifice so we no longer had to present sacrifices and offerings of whatever it may be to God nor anymore follow strict Levitical Law.


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## Reindeer (Nov 17, 2014)

The Hidden Owl said:


> Also, why don't we say any apes evolving today?


Because it's a process that takes hundreds of generations. We don't see any apes evolving because their generations are long. What we DO see evolving are bugs, especially fruit flies, since their generations are very short.


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## Trundle (Nov 17, 2014)

Reindeer said:


> Wow, I would have never expected this kind of ****storm in this kind of thread.
> 
> I have no religion and I don't believe in a god. If you want to group me into atheists go ahead but I think that the way the majority of them (or at least the loudest of them) deal with religion is utterly ridiculous and shameful.
> That also goes for religious people trying to convert others with "but look at allllllll this proof : D".



I don't blame you for not wanting to be attached to the title of atheist as it comes with a moderately negative stigma due to uneducated people. Same goes for me not wanting to be labelled a feminist due to the incredibly negative stigma attached to feminists. For example, many of the people on this forum who consider themselves feminists have extreme views and will disregard your opinion, which is a laughably hypocritical thing of feminists of all people to do.


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## The Hidden Owl (Nov 17, 2014)

Reindeer said:


> Because it's a process that takes hundreds of generations. We don't see any apes evolving because their generations are long. What we DO see evolving are bugs, especially fruit flies, since their generations are very short.


Yes, but we should be seeing apes in the process of evolving if evolution is true... they shouldn't come in groups.


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## Reindeer (Nov 17, 2014)

The Hidden Owl said:


> Yes, but we should be seeing apes in the process of evolving if evolution is true... they shouldn't come in groups.


Let me ask you, why should we? I already told you that it happens over hundreds of generations - that means that evolving into something else can literally take _thousands of years_. Now, unless you think you're gonna live to be 2000 years old, why should we be able to see evolution happening in apes?


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## NikkiNikki (Nov 17, 2014)

Reindeer said:


> But if 3DS systems were made then why are DS systems still around? They should all be erased from existence? Right?
> 
> We all evolved from a common ancestor. The things you see in jungles around the world are not what we evolved _from_, it's what evolved _alongside us_. Evolution doesn't have a will, so it doesn't go "ok i made something better time to erase the old now". If something is able to survive in nature, then its genes will enter into the gene pool and start spreading, eventually making the species evolve into a different creature. Because mutations occur in individuals and not the entire species at once, that also means that they can branch off into two or more directions. That's why there's you sitting behind your keyboard but also apes in trees.



Okay, so you are saying we have "ape traits", so its okay for us to climb on trees and throw poop at each other because that's what our ancestors did since its their instincts and there's the probability that we have it, but no we are modern civilians we can't do such things  

But on a serious note I appropriate you explaining this now I am understanding a bit more about evolution on humans and apes in your point of view.


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## The Hidden Owl (Nov 17, 2014)

Reindeer said:


> Let me ask you, why should we? I already told you that it happens over hundreds of generations - that means that evolving into something else can literally take _thousands of years_. Now, unless you think you're gonna live to be 2000 years old, why should we be able to see evolution happening in apes?


Because some should be into the thousands of years already. Evolution shouldn't be a stop and go process.


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## spCrossing (Nov 17, 2014)

I don't go to church, but I celebrate Christmas & Easter....

Does that count?


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## Brackets (Nov 17, 2014)

The Hidden Owl said:


> Because some should be into the thousands of years already. Evolution shouldn't be a stop and go process.



it isn't, evolution is happening all the time. I don't really know what you're getting at


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## LambdaDelta (Nov 17, 2014)

agnostic, I guess

aka the poor man's atheism


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## The Hidden Owl (Nov 17, 2014)

Annachie said:


> it isn't, evolution is happening all the time. I don't really know what you're getting at


What i'm trying to say is why aren't apes evolving into humans now? If evolution is really happening, we should be seeing apes starting to evolve or in the process of evolving.


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## Alienfish (Nov 17, 2014)

Oh them debates.

But yes, I am.


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## RainbowCherry (Nov 17, 2014)

I'm an Athiest.


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## Reindeer (Nov 17, 2014)

The Hidden Owl said:


> Because some should be into the thousands of years already. Evolution shouldn't be a stop and go process.


... But we're only looking at a small slice in history. We've only known about evolution since around the mid-1800s, studies before that did notice that there were striking similarities between creatures but the actual process wasn't known to us until this time.
Apart from that, you're thinking about it the wrong way. Creatures don't yell out "I'M EVOLVING GUYS!!!", individuals with mutated genes don't know it themselves. A gene mutates and may bring about a small change in that individual. If the individual is successful in mating during their lifetime, the gene may be passed on at which point it can start spreading among the species as a whole.

There's various examples of it happening. We have dogs nowadays, which were bred from wolf-like ancestors by humans. That tiny pug? That's the way _we made it evolve_.
Apart from that, there's also the breeding of cows, chickens, etc. for certain traits until the spawn consistently keeps that trait, like these kinds of things. Without our interference these kinds of things would have been a small mutation that may or may not have been passed on, based on whether or not the individual was able to pass on its genes. Humans have forced some creatures to evolve in a certain way because the traits they carried were favorable to us.


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## NikkiNikki (Nov 17, 2014)

The Hidden Owl said:


> What i'm trying to say is why aren't apes evolving into humans now? If evolution is really happening, we should be seeing apes starting to evolve or in the process of evolving.



pretty much my question


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## Brackets (Nov 17, 2014)

NikkiNikki said:


> Okay, so you are saying we have "ape traits", so its okay for us to climb on trees and throw poop at each other because that's what our ancestors did since its their instincts and there's the probability that we have it, but no we are modern civilians we can't do such things



Thats a silly argument. And theres lots of traits we share with apes, as well as the blindingly obvious physical similarities. Take chimpanzees for example, who share over 99% of the same DNA as us. Chimpanzee young like to play, like we do, they're very curious, they like physical contact. They kiss, embrace, tickle each other, express a lot of the same emotions that humans have... they are very like us.

- - - Post Merge - - -



The Hidden Owl said:


> What i'm trying to say is why aren't apes evolving into humans now? If evolution is really happening, we should be seeing apes starting to evolve or in the process of evolving.



Firstly, we wouldn't be able to see them evolving - why don't you understand its a VERY slow, long process. It's not like a gorilla will suddenly give birth to a human. Secondly, they probably wouldn't evolve into humans because the selection pressures for them are different. We went down one path, the other apes went down another, because we had different environments and predators etc which caused us to evolve in different ways. You're talking like humans are the end result, and thats what all animals are heading towards, but that is not the case.


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## Reindeer (Nov 17, 2014)

The Hidden Owl said:


> What i'm trying to say is why aren't apes evolving into humans now? If evolution is really happening, we should be seeing apes starting to evolve or in the process of evolving.


We evolved from *a common ancestor*. The apes around now aren't the ones we evolved from. Again, we evolved _alongside them_. A certain ancestor to both humans and modern apes had various mutations happening in individuals, those were passed along and thus it all branched off. One path led to homo familiaris, homo erectus, homo sapiens (us), etc. The other led to various ape species (because obviously it can branch off even in a branch).
There's no visual sign of it happening. The branching off of the common ancestor happened around 4 to 8 million years ago, while homo sapiens emerged only 200 thousand years ago. It took 3.8 to 7.8 million years for these species to evolve from that very ape-like ancestor to what us humans now.
Evolution is a thing we can see happening, but it's all based on the generations. Generations don't have a set time, like 10 years, 50 years, 100 years. A generation is dependent on the life expectancy of that creature. A single human generation is generally considered to be around 20 to 30 years currently. You need HUNDREDS of generations for these changes to be visible.


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## NikkiNikki (Nov 17, 2014)

Annachie said:


> Thats a silly argument. And theres lots of traits we share with apes, as well as the blindingly obvious physical similarities. Take chimpanzees for example, who share over 99% of the same DNA as us. Chimpanzee young like to play, like we do, they're very curious, they like physical contact. They kiss, embrace, tickle each other, express a lot of the same emotions that humans have... they are very like us.



I know its a silly argument, but hey we all have traits from our great great ancestors right? we carry their genes, so don't we have their so call animal instincts? since we "evolve" from apes.


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## Reindeer (Nov 17, 2014)

NikkiNikki said:


> I know its a silly argument, but hey we all have traits from our great great ancestors right? we carry their genes, so don't we have their so call animal instincts? since we "evolve" from apes.


But our instincts differ from theirs because our society differs. If you grew up in a place where all you did was sit in trees and pick fleas off other people, then that would be your instincts.
Feral children are a good example of this. They are raised by wolves or something and then act like them even after being brought into human society.


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## Brackets (Nov 17, 2014)

NikkiNikki said:


> I know its a silly argument, but hey we all have traits from our great great ancestors right? we carry their genes, so don't we have their so call animal instincts? since we "evolve" from apes.



... I just listed loads of traits we share with other apes. And of course we have instincts. How to you think a baby knows to suck on its mother's nipple? Newborns grabbing onto things like fingers is also an instinct. 

And again, the apes you see today are NOT our ancestors. We share a common ancestor, and they evolved differently to us.


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## NikkiNikki (Nov 17, 2014)

Reindeer said:


> But our instincts differ from theirs because our society differs. If you grew up in a place where all you did was sit in trees and pick fleas off other people, then that would be your instincts.
> Feral children are a good example of this. They are raised by wolves or something and then act like them even after being brought into human society.





Annachie said:


> ... I just listed loads of traits we share with other apes. And of course we have instincts. How to you think a baby knows to suck on its mother's nipple? Newborns grabbing onto things like fingers is also an instinct.
> 
> And again, the apes you see today are NOT our ancestors. We share a common ancestor, and they evolved differently to us.



Okay, look guys this kind of thing is very illogical to me, there is too many plot holes to this imo. Even when I wasn't religious I couldn't believe this stuff. There must be another reason to as why these primates have ALMOST the same characteristic or DNA like us. I am sorry, I was liking this discussion, but its not going to make me believe about the evolution of humans and apes. Also I don't want to keep annoying you guys about this subject. So we can move on to something else  <3


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## Ashtot (Nov 17, 2014)

Reindeer said:


> ... But we're only looking at a small slice in history. We've only known about evolution since around the mid-1800s, studies before that did notice that there were striking similarities between creatures but the actual process wasn't known to us until this time.
> Apart from that, you're thinking about it the wrong way. Creatures don't yell out "I'M EVOLVING GUYS!!!", individuals with mutated genes don't know it themselves. A gene mutates and may bring about a small change in that individual. If the individual is successful in mating during their lifetime, the gene may be passed on at which point it can start spreading among the species as a whole.
> 
> There's various examples of it happening. We have dogs nowadays, which were bred from wolf-like ancestors by humans. That tiny pug? That's the way _we made it evolve_.
> Apart from that, there's also the breeding of cows, chickens, etc. for certain traits until the spawn consistently keeps that trait, like these kinds of things. Without our interference these kinds of things would have been a small mutation that may or may not have been passed on, based on whether or not the individual was able to pass on its genes. Humans have forced some creatures to evolve in a certain way because the traits they carried were favorable to us.



Dogs are a great example of evolution. I learned a lot by watching a documentary on the history of dog breeding, it was really interesting.


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## Reindeer (Nov 17, 2014)

NikkiNikki said:


> Okay, look guys this kind of thing is very illogical to me, there is too many plot holes to this imo. Even when I wasn't religious I couldn't believe this stuff. There must be another reason to as why these primates have ALMOST the same characteristic or DNA like us. I am sorry, I was liking this discussion, but its not going to make me believe about the evolution of humans and apes. Also I don't want to keep annoying you guys about this subject. So we can move on to something else  <3


Evolution encompasses a lot so I realize it's a hard pill to swallow. That doesn't change that it's a fact of life which we have been able to observe and, in some cases, control or affect. If you choose to believe or not doesn't change that. It's like believing whether or not the Earth is round. We know it's round.


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## sej (Nov 17, 2014)

Reindeer said:


> Because it's a process that takes hundreds of generations. We don't see any apes evolving because their generations are long. What we DO see evolving are bugs, especially fruit flies, since their generations are very short.



Exactly, a caterpillar into a butterfly? Same thing about apes evolving into humans(I think xD)


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## NikkiNikki (Nov 17, 2014)

Reindeer said:


> Evolution encompasses a lot so I realize it's a hard pill to swallow. That doesn't change that it's a fact of life which we have been able to observe and, in some cases, control or affect. If you choose to believe or not doesn't change that. It's like believing whether or not the Earth is round. We know it's round.



I am okay with evolution as a whole just not part about that we evolve from apes that's all. Yeah its doesn't change anything, but we can go talk about the evolution of dogs that sounds interesting


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## Trundle (Nov 17, 2014)

NikkiNikki said:


> I am okay with evolution as a whole just not part about that we evolve from apes that's all. Yeah its doesn't change anything, but we can go talk about the evolution of dogs that sounds interesting



For those of you wondering, evolution is separate as a whole from Christianity and Atheism and has nothing to do with it. Christian's view of the world can involve evolution as can atheism. Please take your argument elsewhere!


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## Lady Timpani (Nov 17, 2014)

I'm not atheist, but I'm not exactly religious, either. I think there might be something up there, but there really isn't any proof for it, which isn't something I like very much. I also believe that, regardless of your religion, it should be a personal thing for you. Even though I liked church when I was younger, I would rather have relationship with whatever deity I potentially believe in than have a pastor or someone similar tell me what that deity says. 

Basically, autonomy is a big thing for me.


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## Brackets (Nov 17, 2014)

Trundle said:


> For those of you wondering, evolution is separate as a whole from Christianity and Atheism and has nothing to do with it. Christian's view of the world can involve evolution as can atheism. Please take your argument elsewhere!



I think people know that, after all most christians accept evolution. At least, they definitely do here in the UK - I've only ever met one christian in real life who doesn't accept evolution.


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## Zanessa (Nov 17, 2014)

Raised Catholic but I'm pansexual and I'm pro-choice so they'd probably kick me out the church LMAO
I'm an Atheist because I don't believe that a God exists. There may be a higher power but I don't think any sort of religion's 'god' fits what I believe.


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## Angelmarina (Nov 17, 2014)

Annachie said:


> I think people know that, after all most christians accept evolution. At least, they definitely do here in the UK - I've only ever met one christian in real life who doesn't accept evolution.



Actually evolution is sort of a thing in the US, a lot of religious people don't accept or believe in it. I know my family doesn't and it was very controversial at one point whether it should be taught here or not. In schools, I mean.


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## Brackets (Nov 17, 2014)

Angelmarina said:


> Actually evolution is sort of a thing in the US, a lot of religious people don't accept or believe in it. I know my family doesn't and it was very controversial at one point whether it should be taught here or not. In schools, I mean.



I know it's more controversial in the US, but I thought it was still accepted by the majority? maybe I'm wrong though, if I am then wow. That's awful that they actually debated not teaching it in schools.


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## Lady Timpani (Nov 17, 2014)

Angelmarina said:


> Actually evolution is sort of a thing in the US, a lot of religious people don't accept or believe in it. I know my family doesn't and it was very controversial at one point whether it should be taught here or not. In schools, I mean.



Yeah, evolution's still kind of a debated thing here. When I first took biology in tenth grade, my teacher prefaced the unit by saying that he wasn't trying to go against anybody's beliefs, that you could believe in God and evolution, etc.

I do know some people who are Christians and are fine with evolution, but some of them don't like the idea of humans being related to apes, which does kind of baffle me, but eh.


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## Zanessa (Nov 17, 2014)

NikkiNikki said:


> I am okay with evolution as a whole just not part about that we evolve from apes that's all.



This brings up something that I wanted to say. (not directly at you, but in general)





My 7th grade teacher used this picture to tell us what evolution is _not._ If we evolved from Apes, why are they still here?
We may have a common ancestor, but we do not evolve directly from apes.


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## Envelin (Nov 17, 2014)

I'm not an Athiest. I'm a coexist Christian. I choose to follow Christ but I believe in all sorts of religions. 

I can't stand churches. Hell, I went to a Christian camp for a week and fell into depression for the fear that I was being brainwashed. Like them. Like EVERYONE. I truly felt I was going mad, skipping all of the sermons to go hang out by the creek off campus. Was it dangerous? Yes. Do I regret it? No.

It's sickening how these people just throw away their morality and compassion to destroy their own conscious minds in these mere texts based off of human perception and nothing else.

Abortion, homosexuality, and even masturbation being WRONG? Sorry. But no. Abortion has it's excuses. Without it, there would be more children being orphaned or unloved because they were not wanted. Deformities and stillborn births being inevitable. Children or women having to roam the world sickened with themselves, scared to be touched. To trust because of a rape incident that haunts their dreams and life. Haunts the knowledge of the newborn child who now walks the Earth KNOWING that he or she wasn't meant to be. That he or she came from pain and tragedy. NO ONE DESERVES THAT FATE.

I believe in mediums and stories of the afterlife and such. Like NDEs. That's what made me believe. That's the only thing that's led me to belief. At least I have morality.


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## Trundle (Nov 17, 2014)

ZanessaGaily said:


> This brings up something that I wanted to say. (not directly at you, but in general)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It is very possible we do actually. 
It's not based on some magical fairy making us smarter over time. It's how the apes may have conditioned to their surroundings. If a certain species was pushed to live in a certain zone that made them live a certain way (and those who didn't would die off), it would cause us to "evolve". The apes who still lived in their natural habitat obviously wouldn't change for they live efficiently and properly how they are. If they can survive fine how they are, they will not change.


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## Reindeer (Nov 17, 2014)

Annachie said:


> I think people know that, after all most christians accept evolution. At least, they definitely do here in the UK - I've only ever met one christian in real life who doesn't accept evolution.


During one of my studies I had to stay in the UK with a very religious foster family. We had to pray before breakfast and dinner and even go to church with them. They encouraged me and my (gay) friend to join in on the conversations they had there, some of which was the discussion of creation and how it proved the might of God. The way they regarded scientific observations made me shut up.

People that are both religious and accept evolution is definitely a much smaller group in the UK than it is in the US, but I was still afraid that bringing it up in any way would have me removed from their residence. It's also sad that a lot of the ignorant arguments regarding evolution nowadays are the same arguments thrown around when Darwin was still alive (popularized by Richard Owen, I think). And those arguments were brought about by a person that was just jealous that Darwin had published his theorem before them.


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## oath2order (Nov 17, 2014)

The Hidden Owl said:


> Also, why don't we see any apes evolving today?



Evolution happens over a long period of time, it's not like you snap your fingers and bam, evolution.



The Hidden Owl said:


> Yes, but we should be seeing apes in the process of evolving if evolution is true... they shouldn't come in groups.



The thing about evolution is that it takes time. Did you know over the past hundred years, humans on average have been getting taller? That's evolution.



Sej said:


> Exactly, a caterpillar into a butterfly? Same thing about apes evolving into humans(I think xD)



No.



Trundle said:


> For those of you wondering, evolution is separate as a whole from Christianity and Atheism and has nothing to do with it. Christian's view of the world can involve evolution as can atheism. Please take your argument elsewhere!



Except their debate is relevant.



ZanessaGaily said:


> This brings up something that I wanted to say. (not directly at you, but in general)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You can use that image to describe the different branches though. Okay, so let's say the first ape breeds, has a child, and a certain gene mutates one way, resulting in the offspring of ape #2. The first ape still has the genetic code to create more apes similar to itself, and therefore still can create more ape #1s.


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## DarkOnyx (Nov 17, 2014)

Jaebeommie said:


> Roman Catholic here, but I love people of all religions so long as they don't automatically dismiss me as one of those disrespectful, condescending people who call themselves "Christian".



Hey,don't take us as a whole,I'm a christian but I respect other's religions,but your comment seems to use a lot of hyprocrisy.Might want to read it back..
You say you respect other's relgions,then insult christians?


I'm barely religious,almost to the point of athiest,but I definiteley still believe in God and Jesus.I don't go to mass.I don not believe in the bible,because if you have taken history you might have heard people corrupted it at one point in the middle ages.I doubt that's the only time it's been messed with,who knows if the original writing is still even in there...


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## Alolan_Apples (Nov 17, 2014)

I'm actually a Christian, and hearing some stories of spiteful atheists becoming ridiculous has made me a bit intolerant of people who don't believe in a god. It's okay if you don't believe in god, but if you're going to hate those who do believe in god for believing in god, then it's not okay.


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## JJarmon (Nov 17, 2014)

I'm not an atheist and I was agnostic for ages, but now I'm one of the most non-religious Christians that you'll meet. I'm extremely liberal and accepting of everything & everyone. If anything, I believe in having good morals and not being a prick. I don't know what exactly to call myself because I also believe in reincarnation, the paranormal, evolution, yada yada. I don't read the Bible or go to church either, so I guess all I can call myself is 'spiritual'.  I honestly have a deep respect for atheist though and usually relate with them more.


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## Alice (Nov 17, 2014)

I practice agnosticism. I'm mostly quiet about any beliefs I hold, but I have a serious problem with anyone who uses their beliefs as a catalyst to knock others.


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## Cold~ (Nov 18, 2014)

I don't know if I could define myself as "atheist": I simply do not care at all about religion ^_^"


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## Idfldnsndt (Nov 18, 2014)

Atheist atheist


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## Brackets (Nov 18, 2014)

Apple2012 said:


> I'm actually a Christian, and hearing some stories of spiteful atheists becoming ridiculous has made me a bit intolerant of people who don't believe in a god. It's okay if you don't believe in god, but if you're going to hate those who do believe in god for believing in god, then it's not okay.



It goes both ways though. Both atheists and christians have intolerant, spiteful people, because these are HUGE groups of people we're dealing with here. Not all atheists shove it in your face, and neither do all christians. Do you even know any atheists in real life? Don't judge them by what you've heard.


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## kesttang (Nov 18, 2014)

I'm not an Atheist nor I have any religion. I do like to keep it open mind. Both of my grandparents are Buddhist but I don't practice them. I feel like if you don't practice your religion then don't preach it. I did bible studying with this group of Christians before... (I'm not saying that all Christians are like this, but..) from my experience, they back-stable and are very judgmental. I hated the experience... I eventually went away from that group. That's when I found my fiance. She's amazing!  Anyways, I do believe there is a God but sometime, I feel like I'm in control of my destiny; therefore, there is really no God.


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## Lio Fotia (Nov 18, 2014)

I swear to gawd

*KEEP IT CIVIL IN HERE PLEASE*

*Dear Christians posting in here:* Look, coming in here and toting your religion is _*amazingly disrespectful*_. I have seen such rude comments and I think it's RIDICULOUS that we have to respect your religion while you come in and preach to us. How pissed would you be if a Hindu walked up to you and preached Hindu beliefs at you while demanding you respect THEIR religion and told you at the same time YOURS is WRONG. Atheism is NOT a religion, it is a lack there of. It is a heavy skepticism of religion and in the existence of god. *In order to BE a religion it must be an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to an order of existence. Many religions have narratives, symbols, and sacred histories that are intended to explain the meaning of life and/or to explain the origin of life or the Universe. * THIS is the definition of a RELIGION. *IF YOU WANT TO COME IN HERE, BE RESPECTFUL OF OUR LACK OF BELIEFS AND WE WILL DO THE SAME!*

*Now then, Fellow... non-religious folk: * DO NOT DISRESPECT ANY RELIGION IN HERE! I understand horror stories, I understand bad experiences. HOWEVER, People have the right to believe whatever the **** they want to, people have different experiences and choose different things. If they want to believe in the flying spaghetti monster, praise be to them. Christians can be nice or rude as ****, Hindi people can be nice or rude as ****, ANYONE can be nice or rude as **** (Though I have yet to meet a rude Buddhist, just saying). It is not always their religion that makes them so. BE RESPECTFUL. DO NOT DROP TO A RUDE PERSON'S LEVEL. JUST IGNORE THEIR ****TY COMMENT.

*EVERYONE*
_Religion is a sensitive subject_ and everyone feels theirs is the right one. Non-Believers have doubts in religion in as whole. This is not a place to try and convert people, for that is disrespectful. This is a place to just point out who is atheist on the forum. If this crap continues I will (once again) have to close my thread. I don't want that. RESPECT EVERYONE. 

We are all "God's children" and "Jesus died for all of our sins" and just because we have yet to see proof of Jesus in history or whatever does not mean we are slamming your religion. Step off, be nice, don't try and convert us or whatever. Go make your own "Convert to christianity now" thread, okay? This is not the place, and it is disrespectful as hell.​


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## Goth (Nov 18, 2014)

no obviously everyone else but you is a satanist


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## Alolan_Apples (Nov 18, 2014)

Annachie said:


> It goes both ways though. Both atheists and christians have intolerant, spiteful people, because these are HUGE groups of people we're dealing with here. Not all atheists shove it in your face, and neither do all christians. Do you even know any atheists in real life? Don't judge them by what you've heard.



I knew a few atheists before, but in real life, I haven't even bumped into any intolerant atheists. However, I did know an atheist on another site that hates everyone who practices religion and was attacking Christians on that site. And don't all religious groups (atheists and agnostics included since they aren't religions) have extremists of any kind? I know Christians, Muslims, and Atheists are the subject of extremism in the past or present, but everyone has extremists. At least the spiteful atheists aren't being violent compared to the extremists from other religions.


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## unravel (Nov 18, 2014)

Yes, I have ebola how do you cure it?

- - - Post Merge - - -



Cold~ said:


> I don't know if I could define myself as "atheist": I simply do not care at all about religion ^_^"



Roman catholic here (dunno if I shud call oyself that ) tho I stopped going to church when I was grade 2 and tbh I really dont care about religion too it only talks us what is good and wrong . This religion thibg is getting ridiculous


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## epona (Nov 18, 2014)

Raised a Catholic, went to Anglican schools and decided at the age of maybe 13 or 14 that I didn't really care
There might be a God and there mightn't be a God, makes no matter to me, I don't really believe in it but I don't deny it either


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## Brackets (Nov 18, 2014)

Apple2012 said:


> I knew a few atheists before, but in real life, I haven't even bumped into any intolerant atheists. However, I did know an atheist on another site that hates everyone who practices religion and was attacking Christians on that site. And don't all religious groups (atheists and agnostics included since they aren't religions) have extremists of any kind? I know Christians, Muslims, and Atheists are the subject of extremism in the past or present, but everyone has extremists. At least the spiteful atheists aren't being violent compared to the extremists from other religions.


Yeah that's basically what I was saying, there's exteemists in all groups


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## Dustmop (Nov 18, 2014)

/raises hand

I was raised by a Roman Catholic and a Jew, and they both believe that I only told them I'm an atheist to "scare" them. /eyeroll.

When I was about 14, I learned that both religions would have had me stoned to death for someone else's sins. That was around the time that I actually started learning about religion... and decided that none of them were "for me."
I was basically agnostic and generally uncaring for a few years before I started down the road of 'debunking fairy tales' and searching for science and facts in various religions. I watched a lot of the History channel in those days, lol. That was about the point I realized that I didn't believe in any of them.


And before someone says something: I get it. They're mostly about _faith_. But the fact of the matter is that I have none.


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## Brackets (Nov 18, 2014)

A thing that bugs me is when people say that being atheist takes all the beauty and wonder out of life, and means theres no purpose.  You can still think that the universe is wonderful even if you believe its creation was a random accident and that there isn't a 'purpose' as such. I mean, all the atoms in our bodies were formed in the heart of stars. Isn't that amazing? Way more amazing to know that, than to just say 'god made us'. (in my opinion) 

Also, you can make your own purpose in life. I don't believe theres a life after this, so my purpose is to be a good person and live life to the full, and hopefully make a difference, however small that difference may be.


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## M O L K O (Nov 18, 2014)

To quote the almighty 
_*"in the end it doesn't even mattteerrr-errrr"*_


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## Celestefey (Nov 18, 2014)

Well, I'm atheist and I always have been, but since studying religion in further detail, I do sometimes waver between religion and atheism. I do believe certain parts in scripture could be true, but obviously the details have been misconstrued over time. It's hard to say, really. I think I'll definitely stay atheist because, let's face it, our universe has existed for millions of years, so it could just be by chance that our planet managed to be perfectly habitable, but sometimes it's good to look from both sides of the argument.

I have to say though, I really despise it when religious people try to shove their religion down your throat. I also despise it when atheists try to act superior over those who choose to believe in a religion. Respect each other, and believe what you want to believe.


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## nekosync (Nov 18, 2014)

Leela said:


> So, were you the one person that didn't believe in God? That's funny, because in my RS class there's one Christian and everyone else is atheist. No one judges her for it though, since people in my class are generally respectful about things like this. I just wish _everyone_ was like that. It really annoys me when people react in the way your class did.


Huh, that is weird. 
And yeah, I do agree with you. Conflicts around the world could be reduced if people were tolerant about stuff like this.


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## Mercedes (Nov 18, 2014)

Uhm? I am a Christian and I don't understand how you can't BELIVE that someone did not like create you? Whether you BELIVE in Hindu or budda or Jeaus Crist. Because in the Evo theory we came from like Somthing dead???!!!! But we're DID THAT COME FROM? The universe could just not appear. But..anyways I *am not trying to offend anyone  I am just stating SOMTHING that confuses me please don't feel offend or hurt. Thank you, I BELIVE you can BELIVE or not BELIVE in what you want. So. I was just saying my mind. Thank you have a nice day  *


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## Dustmop (Nov 18, 2014)

Luckypinch said:


> Uhm? I am a Christian and I don't understand how you can't BELIVE that someone did not like create you? Whether you BELIVE in Hindu or budda or Jeaus Crist. Because in the Evo theory we came from like Somthing dead???!!!! But we're DID THAT COME FROM? The universe could just not appear. But..anyways I *am not trying to offend anyone  I am just stating SOMTHING that confuses me please don't feel offend or hurt. Thank you, I BELIVE you can BELIVE or not BELIVE in what you want. So. I was just saying my mind. Thank you have a nice day  *



That's a good question for both sides, honestly.
Because on the flip side, where/how/when/why did that higher power come into being?

It's the chicken and the egg.
If *everything* has to have a beginning, then you have to rationally consider how whatever you believe in first came into existence as well. ;p


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## Eldin (Nov 18, 2014)

Luckypinch said:


> Uhm? I am a Christian and I don't understand how you can't BELIVE that someone did not like create you? Whether you BELIVE in Hindu or budda or Jeaus Crist. Because in the Evo theory we came from like Somthing dead???!!!! *But we're DID THAT COME FROM? The universe could just not appear.*But..anyways I *am not trying to offend anyone  I am just stating SOMTHING that confuses me please don't feel offend or hurt. Thank you, I BELIVE you can BELIVE or not BELIVE in what you want. So. I was just saying my mind. Thank you have a nice day  *



Where did God come from? If things can't just appear, then why can he? 

Anyways yes, I am an atheist. But I think about how we came into existence very rarely. I just focus on my life, how it all started is an interesting topic to discuss but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter to me one way or the other, tbh. As for what happens after we die, I guess I'll find out eventually.


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## Angelmarina (Nov 18, 2014)

Apple2012 said:


> I'm actually a Christian, and hearing some stories of spiteful atheists becoming ridiculous has made me a bit intolerant of people who don't believe in a god. It's okay if you don't believe in god, but if you're going to hate those who do believe in god for believing in god, then it's not okay.



I haven't met a lot of atheists like that, I've met the opposite, christians who have a problem with atheists. So, I'm actually weary of Christians for that reason but their are always exceptions. Personally I just have a great dislike for the religion it's self but not the people. ^^ It's all about who you meet.


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## Alolan_Apples (Nov 18, 2014)

Angelmarina said:


> I haven't met a lot of atheists like that, I've met the opposite, christians who have a problem with atheists. So, I'm actually weary of Christians for that reason but their are always exceptions. Personally I just have a great dislike for the religion it's self but not the people. ^^ It's all about who you meet.



Right. Atheism doesn't encourage their followers to get rid of religion completely. It's some of the followers that do this. The same is true with Christians and Muslims, and many other religions.


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## Reindeer (Nov 18, 2014)

Luckypinch said:


> Uhm? I am a Christian and I don't understand how you can't BELIVE that someone did not like create you? Whether you BELIVE in Hindu or budda or Jeaus Crist. Because in the Evo theory we came from like Somthing dead???!!!! But we're DID THAT COME FROM? The universe could just not appear. But..anyways I *am not trying to offend anyone  I am just stating SOMTHING that confuses me please don't feel offend or hurt. Thank you, I BELIVE you can BELIVE or not BELIVE in what you want. So. I was just saying my mind. Thank you have a nice day  *


"Dead" means that something was once alive.
And if you want to pull that card, in the Bible, Adam was made from sand. Isn't that pretty much the same thing you're talking about?

There's a lot of hypotheses for how life may have come to be on this planet, but none of them have been proven yet. That's why there is no general theory of the origin of life, because even with all the evidence found of early life on this planet, there has not been any proof for how it actually came into being.





And just to address something that always annoys me in these kinds of threads, and thus not aimed at anyone in particular:
Scientific hypothesis = "This is how it may have happened, but we have no proof."
Scientific theory = "We know this thing is real and this is how it works in our current understanding, backed up by this evidence."

If your argument to not believe in evolution is that it's called the _theory_ of evolution, then please stop believing in tectonic plates (plate tectonics theory), molecules (molecular theory), chemical reactions (collision theory), gravity (theory of relativity), etc.


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## Dustmop (Nov 18, 2014)

Thank you, Reindeer. That was explained far better and simpler than I could have done. 

My dad always gets mad at me when I try to explain to him that 'evolution' is basically an umbrella term that can mean genetic mutations as small as what he simply (and happily) refers to as adaptation, or as big as what I like to call his, _"man-didn't-come-from-fish"-argument._

And he gets all mad when I pull the theory of relativity card and insist that we can all fly now, too.

I should probably come off more polite, but he always 'attacks' my beliefs because it doesn't coincide with what he wants me to believe.


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## Flop (Nov 18, 2014)

Hi, hello, atheist here


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## Mercedes (Nov 18, 2014)

Reindeer said:


> "Dead" means that something was once alive.
> And if you want to pull that card, in the Bible, Adam was made from sand. Isn't that pretty much the same thing you're talking about?
> 
> There's a lot of hypotheses for how life may have come to be on this planet, but none of them have been proven yet. That's why there is no general theory of the origin of life, because even with all the evidence found of early life on this planet, there has not been any proof for how it actually came into being.
> ...


thanks for the Imput... It's what I wanted


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## shinkuzame (Nov 18, 2014)

I'm actually agnostic but I do not think atheism is a bad choice. Believing in something shouldn't be forced and if you don't believe in God or any sort of God that's perfectly fine.

I choose to stay agnostic because I don't particularly have religious faith in '_God_' but I also can't prove that he isn't there. If you choose to have that faith, good for you. If you don't, perfect. 

Religion isn't for _everyone_.


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## Nanobyte (Nov 18, 2014)

Nope. I'm a Mormon, but I never really talk about the fact that I'm LDS unless I'm asked. I probably come off as an atheist (Is it atheist or agnostic?) to people who don't know I'm Mormon.



Dustmop said:


> If *everything* has to have a beginning, then you have to rationally consider how whatever you believe in first came into existence as well. ;p



AUG YOU'RE HURTING MY BRAIN


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## Lio Fotia (Nov 18, 2014)

Note to self: Religious threads are a very bad idea. 







Respect is in short supply these days, a lost commodity...

But then again-- No no. Won't continue that thought.


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## Brackets (Nov 18, 2014)

I think this thread has been pretty civilised tbh. I was expecting more beef


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## Bowie (Nov 18, 2014)

My approach to religion is very agnostic in the sense that I do not want to be told anything. I think religion causes way too much trouble, though. People kill themselves over it, people are getting their heads chopped off if they don't convert to another religion and it just all seems too much. I really respect the Buddhists, however. That's one thing I don't have any trouble with. What I like is how respectful they are to all forms of life, including bugs and insects. People like that really restore my faith in humanity. I don't really want to be categorised when it comes down to my faith. I have faith, but it's not religious faith. I don't particularly believe in any specific gods or goddesses. I don't want to call myself an atheist, because that kinda implies I don't have faith, and I have a lot of faith, and I'm very spiritual and I think spirituality is the only thing I can really trust.


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## kasane (Nov 18, 2014)

I'm an atheist.

My mum believes in the Buddha and she tried to convince me to also believe, but in my opinion (not trying to start a war) religion does not exist and it is just like a justice-ruling system. Such as Heaven and Hell. They're created so people would not commit anything bad so they would not end up in 'Hell', and if they are good, they go to 'Heaven'. My mum says that if something bad happens (which is kind of happening right now), it's an omen and she wanted to try and 'purify' and pray to make it go away. Seriously I just think that it's all a coincidence that they happened all of a sudden. You can't just blame bad luck on an omen...

- - - Post Merge - - -

And not to mention Theocracy...


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## CR33P (Nov 18, 2014)

i'm born into catholicism but i secretly identify myself as an agnostic
if my dad found out he would probably throw me out


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## Murray (Nov 18, 2014)

*Anyone else here Athiest?*

this is the internet why would you ask this question


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## Goth (Nov 19, 2014)

bump


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## M O L K O (Nov 19, 2014)

A serious answer for me is:

tbh i really don't know as i do belive that there is something out there, however it wouldn't of just created the earth but the entire universe and was the one to make the big bang happen (i'm trying to condense what i mean otherwise 'd be wrtng an essay.) sayng that god created earth s a bit far fetched, why just earth out of all the unverse. Anyway i love learnng hstory and I've found is a lot of relgon and hstory was based on ruling the people and keepng them from revoltng.

*also my 'i' button s stuck so sorry for the countless errors.* Short answer, i don't belive in this man made god but i do belive in something, however i also beileve that everyone should be able to deicde what they want to believe, or not for lack of a better term.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Annachie said:


> I think this thread has been pretty civilised tbh. I was expecting more beef



Honestly, i'm proud of this forum for once.


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## Ragdoll (Nov 20, 2014)

People who automatically judge you as Catholic the minute you say you're Christian. *shudders*

I have some Atheist friends, yeah.



KitsuneNikki said:


> religion does not exist and it is just like a justice-ruling system. Such as Heaven and Hell. They're created so people would not commit anything bad so they would not end up in 'Hell', and if they are good, they go to 'Heaven'.



Kind of like how 'God' is like a judge who will decide if you will go to Heaven or Hell, right? I think it's much more of a beloved tradition than a ruling system though. At least for my religion. People are here because they believe, not because they were forced :/

About theocracy though. Not for it tbh.

Then again, I'm Christian but I don't act Christian at all. I'm surely going to Hell at this rate.


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## Mango (Nov 20, 2014)

LoveMcQueen said:


> Agnostic atheist
> 
> I'm not going to believe in God until he shows himself to my face. There's no reason for him to be hiding



me too


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## Bulbadragon (Nov 20, 2014)

I'm an atheist. I was born into a Christian family but I've been an atheist since I realized I was allowed to choose my own faith. I guess I didn't really think I could before because I was raised thinking "You worship God or you go to hell" and there was never any mention of not believing. 

I'm not going to believe in any deity or higher power until I get proof. With religious texts the only proof for religions thus far, it seems I'll be staying an atheist.


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## Labrontheowl (Nov 20, 2014)

I'm not sure what I believe in, but I think I too am an Atheist. There's just no way I can believe in god when I've only ever done things for myself, there was never a god who was there for me so I just stopped believing. I used to get real bad anxiety at the thoughts of death/afterlife and I'd be scared of what would happen. The people I'd see for counseling about it would tell me I needed to believe in god and find religion. Honestly I tried and I couldn't, it didn't feel right or make any sense. I don't fear death or have anxiety anymore, btw. I figured the afterlife is supposed to be unknown anyways and it would probably just be kinda like dreams.


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## PandaNikita (Nov 24, 2014)

I'm atheist | agnostic


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## MishMeesh (Nov 24, 2014)

Murray said:


> this is the internet why would you ask this question



Atheists? On the internet? Who knew.


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## Tao (Nov 24, 2014)

I'll believe in it when I see it.


Though I won't go into detail on why I think religion is bull****. I don't need to needlessly offend anybody.


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## JennaBoo (Nov 24, 2014)

I *used* to be atheist but after a certain incident, I've become Christian. However, I wouldn't call myself religious - just spiritual.


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