# Ferguson: Your Thoughts.



## MrPuzzleMan

As this case seems to be spilling out onto other threads; I thought it might be prudent to start a thread on this topic. All I ask is that anything related to this topic (the case, circumstances, guilt or innocence, protesting, possible, racial issues, etc.,) be place here. Please discuss and debate this topic in an adult-like manner. Please do not accuse or start calling someone names. Keep this civil.


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## oath2order

At this point I honestly can't find two ****s to give


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## Beleated_Media

isn't ferguson a thief?

(I mean the guy who got shot)


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## MrPuzzleMan

oath2order said:


> At this point I honestly can't find two ****s to give



That is perfectly fine, but this topic is getting out of hand and needs a place for people to vent on it. I appreciate your opinion, though!


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## ThePayne22

I dont care if he's innocent or not tbh. My concern goes towards these awful protesters who are just wrecking all of these businesses and expect no repercussions. Its absolutely sickening.


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## puppy

Beleated_Media said:


> isn't ferguson a thief?


yes an entire city is a thief


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## Beleated_Media

puppy said:


> yes an entire city is a thief



no I mean the guy who got shot

(I haven't been in the news in awhile so forgive me.)


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## tobi!

We just had a thread about this.
It got closed.


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## MrPuzzleMan

Beleated_Media said:


> isn't ferguson a thief?



The issue at hand is whether or not Ferguson Police Officer Darren Wilson knowingly used lethal force on the victim, Michael Brown, when it was not necessary. He was acquitted of all charges. The debate is whether or not he should have been charged.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Norski said:


> We just had a thread about this.
> It got closed.



My bad. I wasn't paying attention.


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## The Hidden Owl

He was only protecting himself. What would of happened if it was a Hispanic guy who was shot? Or a Caucasian guy? The situation would be different.


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## Lady Timpani

puppy said:


> yes an entire city is a thief



Lmao

I think it's ridiculous Darren Wilson didn't get indicted. I could say a lot more, but I'll just keep it at that cuz this thread will probably get locked lol.


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## lazuli

Beleated_Media said:


> isn't ferguson a thief?
> 
> (I mean the guy who got shot)



ferguson is the city. the name of the kid who got murdered was named michael brown.




ThePayne22 said:


> I dont care if he's innocent or not tbh. My concern goes towards these awful protesters who are just wrecking all of these businesses and expect no repercussions. Its absolutely sickening.





The Hidden Owl said:


> He was only protecting himself. What would of happened if it was a Hispanic guy who was shot? Or a Caucasian guy? The situation would be different.



ok bye
"""""""""'protecting"""""""" himself
why you gotta say caucasian. why not just white.

[people still saying its not a race thing] Yeah Sure Ok You tell yourself That

i dont want to say anythin bad because i dont want anythin bad to happen. im just going to play pokemon and i dont want to know who voted no on this poll.


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## Caius

Keep it civil guys. You have one shot at this. (Preferably not in the back if you catch my drift)


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## MozzarellaSticks

Regardless of the racial tones, which are obvious, there is also the issue of excessive force used by police. Six shots is insane for self defense, especially head shots. It's not the first time excessive police force has become an issue, and now police have military grade equipment. It's actually pretty scary. Especially if the police legitimately see this as self defense. They shouldn't be trained to shoot to kill. And I'm extremely worried by the fact that despite all deaths caused by police requiring immediate paperwork there is no statistics done about it.


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## tobi!

ZR388 said:


> Keep it civil guys. You have one shot at this. (Preferably not in the back if you catch my drift)



I caught it. What do I win?


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## MrPuzzleMan

The only thing I could think of in this whole thing was how similar this situation was to the case that started the L.A. Riots back in 1992. Very similar.


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## ThomasNLD

I don't know if he is guilty. Similar incidents seem to happen to often in the US. It reflects badly on the police and it seems to give a lot of black people validation for their gut feeling that there are still inequalities in the American society.

I can't say I can't understand that. Statistics don't lie. I think it is virtually impossible to understand as a caucasian what its like to be black and live with that heritage. It only gets worse if we don't even try to look in to it and our hearts and try and understand. 

This incident imo showed a serious problem area in society, especially in America, but also present in for example our Dutch society. The way of protesting is decided by raw emotion, raw emotion with a much more deeper background then just this incident. I don't want to judge it, but ofcourse authorities have to stop it. I hope someday these incidents will bring an open debate, but I doubt it, people are scared of the topic of racism/equality on a deeper selfreflective level. 

But again, can't say ifhe is guilty. American cops, compared to most European law inforcers, are quite forceful in their approach. It goesmuch deeper, but I doubt getting into it will intereet anybody here. I think the police chief over there raised good points, even though he shouldn't have brought themalmost as an excuse. Thats not what America claims to stand for.


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## Caius

I'm going to vote that I don't know on this because I wasn't there, do not have a forensics degree, law degree, or am qualified to make an educated decision on it when I don't have all of the facts, and neither does anyone else here besides those that are part of the trial or part of the family. 

There is no way for an outside person to know what truly went down. It's not possible considering media doesn't have access to the finer details that go into the grand jury making a choice in these kinds of cases.


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## tobi!

ThomasNLD said:


> I don't know if he is guilty. Similar incidents seem to happen to often in the US. It reflects badly on the police and it seems to give a lot of black people validation for their gut feeling that there are still inequalities in the American society.
> 
> I can't say I can't understand that. Statistics don't lie. I think it is virtually impossible to understand as a caucasian what its like to be black and live with that heritage. It only gets worse if we don't even try to look in to it and our hearts and try and understand.
> 
> This incident imo showed a serious problem area in society, especially in America, but also present in for example our Dutch society. The way of protesting is decided by raw emotion, raw emotion with a much more deeper background then just this incident. I don't want to judge it, but ofcourse authorities have to stop it. I hope someday these incidents will bring an open debate, but I doubt it, people are scared of the topic of racism/equality on a deeper selfreflective level.
> 
> But again, can't say ifhe is guilty. American cops, compared to most European law inforcers, are quite forceful in their approach. It goesmuch deeper, but I doubt getting into it will intereet anybody here. I think the police chief over there raised good points, even though he shouldn't have brought themalmost as an excuse. Thats not what America claims to stand for.



I love Nordic cops, I think they handle situations very nicely. I do think police officers in America are too rough, however. And by Dutch culture, are you referring to Black Pete by any chance?


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## Kaiaa

ZR388 said:


> Keep it civil guys. You have one shot at this. (Preferably not in the back if you catch my drift)



:l Really?

I live in Missouri, I've been around some of the protests but at least they were peaceful, I'm not in Ferguson thank goodness though. Thing is, whether or not the kid did anything at all, I don't believe the officer needed to shoot him. Shooting, in my opinion, needs to be the very last resort. There are other, less lethal ways to incapacitate someone thought to have committed a crime.


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## Caius

Kaiaa said:


> :l Really?
> 
> I live in Missouri, I've been around some of the protests but at least they were peaceful, I'm not in Ferguson thank goodness though. Thing is, whether or not the kid did anything at all, I don't believe the officer needed to shoot him. Shooting, in my opinion, needs to be the very last resort. There are other, less lethal ways to incapacitate someone thought to have committed a crime.



Don't judge me for my satire.


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## puppy

im going to say that this whole situation has made me feel something stronger than i have felt in a while. ive been shifting between sadness and anger. it really gets me that this boy was murdered and his killer can say on TV that he feels no remorse and would do it again even after the fact. it really gets me that people are going out and celebrating this decision, including the KKK and people see nothing wrong with that. _guys the KKK..._ it really gets me that black people are still being senselessly killed by police rn.
_
this is so scary to me_


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## Kaiaa

ZR388 said:


> Don't judge me for my satire.



I'm judging!!!


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## DarkOnyx

I wish I could revote, I accidently pressed no, I want to vote I don't know...

No one except the officer, the man, and a few witnesses were there. So only they know the truth. There are some false statements floating around, and some real ones. But unless you were actually there, you wouldn't be able to tell which is which. So... I'm not sure tbh.

But I do think the more violent protesters should be charged... Still somewhat on topic.....


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## MozzarellaSticks

ZR388 said:


> I'm going to vote that I don't know on this because I wasn't there, do not have a forensics degree, law degree, or am qualified to make an educated decision on it when I don't have all of the facts, and neither does anyone else here besides those that are part of the trial or part of the family.
> 
> There is no way for an outside person to know what truly went down. It's not possible considering media doesn't have access to the finer details that go into the grand jury making a choice in these kinds of cases.


The entire case was released for anyone to view. You can easily Google it. It's the entire set of grand jury documents. I'd rather not link it here since it's a bit graphic at times.


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## tobi!

DarkOnyx said:


> I wish I could revote, I accidently pressed no, I want to vote I don't know...
> 
> No one except the officer, the man, and a few witnesses were there. So only they know the truth. There are some false statements floating around, and some real ones. But unless you were actually there, you wouldn't be able to tell which is which. So... I'm not sure tbh.
> 
> But I do think the more violent protesters should be charged... Still somewhat on topic.....



Sucks too that so many witnesses lied. Now we can't differentiate real or fake.

It's really upsetting to see so many stores looted in the protests. A lot of store owners have to restart or move elsewhere.


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## Bassy

ThomasNLD said:


> I don't know if he is guilty. Similar incidents seem to happen to often in the US. It reflects badly on the police and it seems to give a lot of black people validation for their gut feeling that there are still inequalities in the American society.
> 
> I can't say I can't understand that. Statistics don't lie. I think it is virtually impossible to understand as a caucasian what its like to be black and live with that heritage. It only gets worse if we don't even try to look in to it and our hearts and try and understand.
> 
> This incident imo showed a serious problem area in society, especially in America, but also present in for example our Dutch society. The way of protesting is decided by raw emotion, raw emotion with a much more deeper background then just this incident. I don't want to judge it, but ofcourse authorities have to stop it. I hope someday these incidents will bring an open debate, but I doubt it, people are scared of the topic of racism/equality on a deeper selfreflective level.
> 
> But again, can't say ifhe is guilty. American cops, compared to most European law inforcers, are quite forceful in their approach. It goesmuch deeper, but I doubt getting into it will intereet anybody here. I think the police chief over there raised good points, even though he shouldn't have brought themalmost as an excuse. Thats not what America claims to stand for.



Nice answer. I wish people would get over their skincolour indifferences and started looking at these things objectively.

Only the cop knows why he reacted the way he did, no speculation is going to get anyone closer to the truth. Peoples emotions are a powerful thing and they can create a strong clouding of judgement. 

The scary part of the story is that people see what they want to see. Even when the guy ended up not being found guilty, people's emotions are still out there.

Come on everyone, let's grow as a species... aren't we getting tired of this?


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## Caius

Released by the grand jury or by media outlet? Either way I stick by the fact that I don't have a formal education in US or Regional law, nor do I believe statements considering how much money goes into hiring expensive lawyers that will do nothing but lie.


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## MozzarellaSticks

ZR388 said:


> Released by the grand jury or by media outlet? Either way I stick by the fact that I don't have a formal education in US or Regional law, nor do I believe statements considering how much money goes into hiring expensive lawyers that will do nothing but lie.


By the judge proceeding over the case. There was a huge debate over it.

You realize juries don't have law degrees either, right?


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## ThomasNLD

Norski said:


> I love Nordic cops, I think they handle situations very nicely. I do think police officers in America are too rough, however. And by Dutch culture, are you referring to Black Pete by any chance?



That is one example and a big one, yes.
I don't think there is anything racist about that holiday, but I do feel the reaction of Dutch people to the people voicing issues with it are in some cases racist and in many cases completely missing the point that people who find it racist trying to make. Also why it is so important to them. 
I think, like suchshootings in America, it uncovers a deeper problem in society, like a dormant issue with discrimination and inequality.

BTW, I can somewhat understand the more rough approach of American cops as well. There are many more weapons floating around under civilians and also many more cases each year of civilians prepared to use them. It puts you as a cop in a completely different state of mind. Its quite complex, thats often the case when deeper problems are the core of the issue. Shame that no one gets near that core and we only keep the surface nice and tidy and not the ticking timebomb that lies underneath,


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## Caius

MermaidSong said:


> By the judge proceeding over the case. There was a huge debate over it.
> 
> You realize juries don't have law degrees either, right?



No, they don't. But the point was more directed at the legal side of things.


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## MozzarellaSticks

ZR388 said:


> No, they don't. But the point was more directed at the legal side of things.


Bu if we have access to the same documents a jury did we can clearly make our own independent decision, much like a jury. I mean that is literally what a jury is, a cross selection of people that review material. And we have the exact same material they had, ever piece of it, to look over and therefore we can form our own conclusions without a law degree.


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## Caius

Except if you don't agree with a grand jury decision then something apparently is different from what we know and what they know. Either way, I'm not saying you can't make a decision based on what you have, I'm saying I don't feel it to be *morally right to do it myself with the information presented to me in the way it is. *

I'm very neutral on the situation.


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## tobi!

ZR388 said:


> No, they don't. But the point was more directed at the legal side of things.



I was confused but I think I see what you're saying.
You mean that we don't know everything so we shouldn't make assumptions, right?


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## Mega_Cabbage

So the rioters are trying to say that the use of unnecessary force should be punished by unnecessarily causing uproar/violence to erupt through rioting, which could also cause others of their race to be killed? It's kind of self defeating in my opinion.

Yes, I agree that the officer should be guilty of killing a man, but the media is blowing it entirely out of proportion.


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## Caius

Norski said:


> I was confused but I think I see what you're saying.
> You mean that we don't know everything so we shouldn't make assumptions, right?



I more meant that's how I'm handling it myself, but yes.


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## tobi!

Mega_Cabbage said:


> So the rioters are trying to say that the use of unnecessary force should be punished by unnecessarily causing uproar/violence to erupt through rioting, which could also cause others of their race to be killed? It's kind of self defeating in my opinion.



Yeah, I heard one black man was shot and he wasn't even protesting. Another man was beat with his own oxygen tank! Very sad. I also read that many of the store owners were black! Upsetting to see someone's little bakery be burned to the ground due to the reckless behavior of people who call for peace.


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## lazuli

so wilson didnt know that brown 'stole' the cigarillos until AFTER he shot him, yet knew the exact brand that brown supposedly had in his right hand while he hit wilsons right cheek with his right hand.........which once again, were holding the cigarillos. wilson was in the drivers side (left) so how could brown have hit him....
the only way that brown could have 'grabbed for his gun' is if the gun was out already. why would wilson need to pull it out.
wilson did say that he felt no remorse and if he could, he would shoot brown again. plus hes linked to the KKK.

people are saying he was a thug, yet his friends say he could have joined the football team but didnt because he didnt want to hit anybody.
my apush teacher was saying wrongful things about him (hes white btw,,,,) and he was making me so angry. we then proceeded to watch mississippi burning (which is about racism in america)

[goes to sleep]


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## tobi!

computertrash said:


> so wilson didnt know that brown 'stole' the cigarillos until AFTER he shot him, yet knew the exact brand that brown supposedly had in his right hand while he hit wilsons right cheek with his right hand.........which once again, were holding the cigarillos. wilson was in the drivers side (left) so how could brown have hit him....
> the only way that brown could have 'grabbed for his gun' is if the gun was out already. why would wilson need to pull it out.
> wilson did say that he felt no remorse and if he could, he would shoot brown again. plus hes linked to the KKK.
> 
> people are saying he was a thug, yet his friends say he could have joined the football team but didnt because he didnt want to hit anybody.
> my apush teacher was saying wrongful things about him (hes white btw,,,,) and he was making me so angry. we then proceeded to watch mississippi burning (which is about racism in america)
> 
> [goes to sleep]



I thought you were playing the Pokemanz


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## lazuli

ZR388 said:


> I'm very neutral on the situation.



*If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.*- Desmond Tutu


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## nammie

how is there even question over the guilt..... it's pretty obvs darren wilson shot mike brown??? he even said so himself????? ._.

as for my thoughts its disgusting darren wilson didn't even get indicted.


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## lazuli

Norski said:


> I thought you were playing the Pokemanz



shh


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## Caius

computertrash said:


> *If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.*- Desmond Tutu



Slow your roll. Throwing a torch where nothing but an opinion is expressed makes you as guilty as one of the protesters. 

Also I said keep it civil. Don't attack me.


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## tobi!

It's often that the oppressed become the oppressors.


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## lazuli

ZR388 said:


> Slow your roll. Throwing a torch where nothing but an opinion is expressed makes you as guilty as one of the protesters.
> 
> Also I said keep it civil. Don't attack me.



i... didnt say i was attacking you. the protestors arent guilty tho.



Norski said:


> It's often that the oppressed become the oppressors.



what since when


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## tobi!

computertrash said:


> i... didnt say i was attacking you. the protestors arent guilty tho.
> 
> 
> 
> what since when




about 7:30


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## Caius

I shouldn't have laughed.


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## Milky-Chii

I'm not completely sure on how feel about this issue yet. Yes there were obviously very fishy things going on in this case and many inconsistencies from what Darren Wilson himself had to say not only in the transcript during his hearing but also what he said during interviews. It took far too long for his case to be heard by the grand jury (most cases are heard within one day, but in his case the grand jurors met 25 days over three months.) Bob McCulloch was obviously biased, his own father being a police officer who killed on duty. link and cherry-picking evidence to sway the case link Also really suspicious how the medical examiner at the scene didn't take pictures of his body because he "ran out of batteries in his camera." Not only that but the Ferguson police have a history of excessive force against it's residents in the past (beating someone for something he didn't do and charging them for bleeding on their uniforms.) link Also the claimed "stolen cigarettes" would have been a large factor in this case and should have been kept as evidence if they even existed and yet there are none. Not only that but those "injuries" of Wilson's do not in any way look to be "near fatal blows" to his face. I don't trust the mainstream media as it's all filtered either one way or the other. I do believe he should have gotten charged for something because even if he was as afraid as he claimed to be, that in no way excuses murder. Michael was unarmed, he shot him an excessive amount of times. It just doesn't add up.


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## Lio Fotia

Race and Racism is the elephant in the room for most Americans, I have noticed. It's not about oppression or being oppressed. It's about a white cop shot a boy of colour. As sad as this truth is, this is more common that you think, it happens daily. It's not right, it's not okay. It's two cultures within america that don't understand each other and push at each other when they meet because there is no middle ground. White cops of privilege and black youth who push the boundaries. No one is right in this situation, no one will win.

A grand jury decided not to indict a man for murdering a child. As sad as this truth is, there is nothing that can be said or done about it. Cultural boundaries need to be broken down, not just with this one man, the one family in this one town, _but across america_. No one is talking about the 12 year old who was shot within 2 seconds of police arriving in cleveland last weekend. No one is talking about the black kid that was shot just last year for walking down the street in a white neighborhood.

Honestly, I don't care. I'm moving off this continent in the coming months and honestly, pushing and pulling will not stop. Obama was right. Race is a conversation the american people need to have. They cannot fear it anymore. And the riots? They are a bad idea now because of looters and because of people like the KKK who are filled with hate and spite and fear for other humans they do not understand. This is the reality of this situation. Race is still a dividing factor in america, and has been for as long as she stood. Ours is a country of half truths, and only white Americans get to enjoy the fruits of most of the labors, and everyone else has to fight for their own or take the scraps. Race and the hate and distaste for it needs to end. It's a two way street and we all need to walk down it in unity or incidence like Ferguson will never, EVER stop.

as for the lack of indictment, I don't care. Everything I mentioned before should take priority over anything else, or else america will sink further into despair.

Also, attacking ZR388 is a bad idea. She don't take no **** from no one.


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## spCrossing

I honestly don't care about it.

Shun me all you want for being me not being truly American and all that crap, I just want to play Smash and not be bothered by it.

Case closed.


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## lazuli

Callaway said:


> Also, attacking ZR388 is a bad idea. She don't take no **** from no one.



????? attacking her ??? i dont ??????? what


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## Caius

Let it drop.


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## jopony

I think that a cop unnecessarily shot a child repeatedly and his racial insecurity had a part in making him do it. 
A cop. Shot a child. In the chest. 6 times. And he isn't punished at all? That's grade A bull. And it's also a representation of the constant ignorance to racial insensitivity that cops carry around with them. And enough is enough.
I bet everyone commenting on this is white. I know I am. I'm so white that I have to wear sunscreen in the winter, then I get lost in the snow. But I know that this is wrong.

"Dooley?s spokeswoman, Pat Washington, said there have been long-standing concerns among many black leaders in the community regarding County Prosecutor Robert McCulloch?s ability to handle such cases because his father was killed in the line of duty when McCulloch was 12 years old. The man who shot his father was black."

This blog very thoroughly and accurately pointing out every flaw and hole (which, might I add, there's a WHOLE LOT) in this case.

"Bob McCulloch had every right to pass on an indictment. But absent an indictment, he has no right to the pretense that Office Wilson?s guilt or innocence has been adequately litigated. He should have to live with whatever backlash his non-indictment provoked."

And even more evidence that he's extremely biased.

My opinion? At least get that moron off the police force. He killed someone. He doesn't deserve to keep 'protecting' when his resort to an attack from a child is to repeatedly shoot them. 
If you'd like more proof, I'll provide more links.


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## tobi!

jopony said:


> I think that a cop unnecessarily shot a *child* repeatedly and his racial insecurity had a part in making him do it.
> A cop. Shot a child. In the chest. 6 times. And he isn't punished at all? That's grade A bull. And it's also a representation of the constant ignorance to racial insensitivity that cops carry around with them. And enough is enough.
> I bet everyone commenting on this is white. I know I am. I'm so white that I have to wear sunscreen in the winter, then I get lost in the snow. But I know that this is wrong.
> 
> "Dooley’s spokeswoman, Pat Washington, said there have been long-standing concerns among many black leaders in the community regarding County Prosecutor Robert McCulloch’s ability to handle such cases because his father was killed in the line of duty when McCulloch was 12 years old. The man who shot his father was black."
> 
> This blog very thoroughly and accurately pointing out every flaw and hole (which, might I add, there's a WHOLE LOT) in this case.
> 
> "Bob McCulloch had every right to pass on an indictment. But absent an indictment, he has no right to the pretense that Office Wilson’s guilt or innocence has been adequately litigated. He should have to live with whatever backlash his non-indictment provoked."
> 
> And even more evidence that he's extremely biased.
> 
> My opinion? At least get that moron off the police force. He killed someone. He doesn't deserve to keep 'protecting' when his resort to an attack from a child is to repeatedly shoot them.
> If you'd like more proof, I'll provide more links.



child?


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## jopony

17 year old. If you're under 18, you're a child. But you're right, he was a big hulking monster. I get it. But I'm talking in terms of the law. Also, my point is still valid even if you don't consider him a child. He KILLED SOMEONE. He shouldn't be on a police force after that.


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## Milky-Chii

Norski said:


> child?



Teenager but what difference does it make?


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## tobi!

jopony said:


> 17 year old. If you're under 18, you're a child. But you're right, he was a big hulking monster. I get it. But I'm talking in terms of the law.



You treat 17 year olds as children?

- - - Post Merge - - -



Milky-Chii said:


> Teenager but what difference does it make?



Teens can think better and act differently than children


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## Milky-Chii

jopony said:


> 17 year old. If you're under 18, you're a child. But you're right, he was a big hulking monster. I get it. But I'm talking in terms of the law. Also, my point is still valid even if you don't consider him a child. He KILLED SOMEONE. He shouldn't be on a police force after that.



Michael Brown was 18 but I still agree with everything else you said.


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## jopony

????? So we're just gonna forget that someone's dead?

- - - Post Merge - - -



Milky-Chii said:


> Michael Brown was 18 but I still agree with everything else you said.



Ah, was he? I kept hearing 17 and 18, but he seemed younger to me. Sorry for the misinformation.


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## Milky-Chii

Norski said:


> You treat 17 year olds as children?
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> 
> 
> Teens can think better and act differently than children



That's very true I'm glad you know that but what I meant was it doesn't make any difference in what happened in this case.


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## Caius

They mean legally under 18 in the US you're not considered a legal adult.


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## tobi!

ZR388 said:


> They mean legally under 18 in the US you're not considered a legal adult.



Yeah, not an adult for sure.
sorry forshizzle*


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## Milky-Chii

Norski said:


> Yeah, not an adult for sure.
> sorry forshizzle*



Still not seeing how his age matters...


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## ShinyYoshi

I voted that I do not know. Because a cop claimed it was in self defense and people are killed that way all the time. Yeah, the teen was unarmed, but you don't have to be armed to cause a lot of damage to someone. I also don't know the true story because everyone has had different stories to tell about how it went down. I don't know what ACTUALLY happened. 

I do know that this topic is spreading like wildfire and most of the people I have seen commenting about it are extremely uneducated about this topic and just start flame wars between people of opposing views. Fighting about the verdict isn't changing anything and the Ferguson riots/vandalizing are proving that. The government can't go back and change their verdict; that makes them look weak and could open a huge door that would be very bad.


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## tobi!

Milky-Chii said:


> Still not seeing how his age matters...



If he was five and shot.
If he was sixteen and shot.
If he was eighty and shot.

Of course there is a difference. At different ages you should know more so what is right and wrong. If he was seven and shot, Wilson would be in jail foshizzle.


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## jopony

Milky-Chii said:


> Still not seeing how his age matters...



Well in a way it matters. But I do see what you mean, it doesn't matter when so many other things in the case does. 
I just feel that a lot of times officers of the law, moreso white officers, see african americans as older as they appear. I mean, in the recent shooting of that 12 year old child (this time, CHILD) the cop actually said "The suspect is a black male, maybe 20," So It seems like something to consider. A lot of people overlook the fact that this was a teenager who was actually sweet and kind, and on his way to college. He was a person who's life gotten taken away. He didn't need to be killed. Punished for his actions? Sure. But not with death. And letting his killer go free is borderline disrespectful.
So age plays more into morality, y'know?


----------



## Milky-Chii

Norski said:


> If he was five and shot.
> If he was sixteen and shot.
> If he was eighty and shot.
> 
> Of course there is a difference. At different ages you should know more so what is right and wrong. If he was seven and shot, Wilson would be in jail foshizzle.



Oh of course, I was just speaking about the difference of a year that was mentioned (17, 18)

- - - Post Merge - - -



jopony said:


> Well in a way it matters. But I do see what you mean, it doesn't matter when so many other things in the case does.
> I just feel that a lot of times officers of the law, moreso white officers, see african americans as older as they appear. I mean, in the recent shooting of that 12 year old child (this time, CHILD) the cop actually said "The suspect is a black male, maybe 20," So It seems like something to consider. A lot of people overlook the fact that this was a teenager who was actually sweet and kind, and on his way to college. He was a person who's life gotten taken away. He didn't need to be killed. Punished for his actions? Sure. But not with death. And letting his killer go free is borderline disrespectful.
> So age plays more into morality, y'know?



Absolutely, I agree with you 100%


----------



## NewLeaf13

Michael Brown was a criminal to begin with! Darren Wilson was absolutely NOT guilty!


----------



## Alolan_Apples

I don't get why Darren Wilson should be guilty. Michael Brown is already 18, and if Darren didn't do anything, he would've been dead. And everybody hates him for killing a black person? Did people consider it murder because Michael Brown was "underage", or are they sick of this "racial imbalance"? I'm kinda thinkng that people who oppose Wilson believe that race is the issue.

Darren Wilson is nothing like OJ Simpson. He was about to be killed when the criminal grabbed for his gun. OJ wasn't even threatened when he decided to kill his wife and her friend. I'm not glad that Michael Brown is dead, but he is the guilty party. If you're going to get into a fight with a cop or run away (knowing that you'll get in trouble) then you're going to face serious troubles. Darren Wilson is doing his job. OJ Simpson, on the other hand, was being a real jerk. In fact, he still is a jerk even if he never killed his wife or her friend. The woman he was married to had the right to leave him, but he wouldn't let her leave him. Therefore, Darren Wilson isn't the fourth OJ. Both may be declared "not guilty", but I only felt that one of these trials was fair.

If you want to know why i brought up OJ Simpson, Wilson was compared to Zimmerman by society, and people compared Zimmerman to OJ. And like OJ Simpson, both were accused of murder and never got punished for it. But I felt that Wilson didn't murder anyone. I mean, if somebody puts your life in danger in a city with no law, but you have hundreds of defenses at home, what would you do? People need to look at the real story.


----------



## Goth

MrPuzzleMan said:


> As this case seems to be spilling out onto other threads; I thought it might be prudent to start a thread on this topic. All I ask is that anything related to this topic (the case, circumstances, guilt or innocence, protesting, possible, racial issues, etc.,) be place here. Please discuss and debate this topic in an adult-like manner. Please do not accuse or start calling someone names. Keep this civil.



we had one of these for this topic

it got locked


----------



## jopony

For now, I'm gonna get off this thread. But I thought I'd drop some important links.






This video. Is so important. Because with all the talk about how Brown attacked Wilson and brought it on himself? This guy, this PROFESSIONAL, proves that wrong.

This tumblr post with a bunch of accurate links on how Darren Wilson is a bad police officer, has had a past of racial profiling, and other important things to note. [x]

This entire blog. But specifically this tag of videos. This has all you need to know from both sides, and doesn't just deal with Ferguson but with every other african american vs police injustice. [x]

A video with Micheal Brown's mom. Remember what I said about humanity? It's important. [x]

Please, no matter which side you're on, have the proper information and sources to back it up. It helps! Stay safe.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Apple2012 said:


> I don't get why Darren Wilson should be guilty. Michael Brown is already 18, and if Darren didn't do anything, he would've been dead. And everybody hates him for killing a black person? Did people consider it murder because Michael Brown was "underage", or are they sick of this "racial imbalance"? I'm kinda thinkng that people who oppose Wilson believe that race is the issue.
> 
> Darren Wilson is nothing like OJ Simpson. He was about to be killed when the criminal grabbed for his gun. OJ wasn't even threatened when he decided to kill his wife and her friend. I'm not glad that Michael Brown is dead, but he is the guilty party. If you're going to get into a fight with a cop or run away (knowing that you'll get in trouble) then you're going to face serious troubles. Darren Wilson is doing his job. OJ Simpson, on the other hand, was being a real jerk. In fact, he still is a jerk even if he never killed his wife or her friend. The woman he was married to had the right to leave him, but he wouldn't let her leave him. Therefore, Darren Wilson isn't the fourth OJ. Both may be declared "not guilty", but I only felt that one of these trials was fair.
> 
> If you want to know why i brought up OJ Simpson, Wilson was compared to Zimmerman by society, and people compared Zimmerman to OJ. And like OJ Simpson, both were accused of murder and never got punished for it. But I felt that Wilson didn't murder anyone. I mean, if somebody puts your life in danger in a city with no law, but you have hundreds of defenses at home, what would you do? People need to look at the real story.



"If darren didn't do anything, he would have been dead."
Prove that to me. Provide evidence and a source that would have happened. Also, I'd check out this. [x]

- - - Post Merge - - -



NewLeaf13 said:


> Michael Brown was a criminal to begin with! Darren Wilson was absolutely NOT guilty!



Where's your proof?


----------



## Milky-Chii

NewLeaf13 said:


> Michael Brown was a criminal to begin with! Darren Wilson was absolutely NOT guilty!



First of all it's not proven that he had any criminal record at all. Secondly, previous crimes do not justify him being murdered.


----------



## f11

NewLeaf13 said:


> Michael Brown was a criminal to begin with! Darren Wilson was absolutely NOT guilty!


proof. sources?


----------



## Goth

10 members on here how about I post


----------



## Alolan_Apples

jopony said:


> "If darren didn't do anything, he would have been dead."
> Prove that to me. Provide evidence and a source that would have happened. Also, I'd check out this. [x]



Before I prove it, I would like it if you DO NOT ask me to cite my sources. It's not worth my time, and it reminds me of a horrible forum experience I had before. That, and the site rules does not require citing sources about information like this.

Anyway, what Michael Brown did was that he grabbed for Wilson's gun. If he didn't do anything, Brown would've already take the gun completely and shot Wilson. That's why he stopped him. And people are taking Wilson's actions as murder? That's messed up.

- - - Post Merge - - -



GaMERCaT said:


> 10 members on here how about I post



I would like to see your opinion or something you're about to say.


----------



## Caius

GaMERCaT said:


> 10 members on here how about I post



Please do not spam in threads. Offer an opinion or something on topic please.


----------



## Milky-Chii

Apple2012 said:


> Before I prove it, I would like it if you DO NOT ask me to cite my sources. It's not worth my time, and it reminds me of a horrible forum experience I had before. That, and the site rules does not require citing sources about information like this.
> 
> Anyway, what Michael Brown did was that he grabbed for Wilson's gun. If he didn't do anything, Brown would've already take the gun completely and shoot Wilson. That's why he stopped him. And people are taking Wilson's actions as murder? That's messed up.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to see your opinion or something you're about to say.



The reason it's important to cite your sources is so you have proof to back up what you're saying although I'm sure you already know that. It's completely fine if you don't want to, but it doesn't make anything you say very credible especially when others have sources to prove otherwise. And anyway, the only way he could have "grabbed for his gun" is if his gun was out already which means he already intended to use it.


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## Goth

Apple2012 said:


> Before I prove it, I would like it if you DO NOT ask me to cite my sources. It's not worth my time, and it reminds me of a horrible forum experience I had before. That, and the site rules does not require citing sources about information like this.
> 
> Anyway, what Michael Brown did was that he grabbed for Wilson's gun. If he didn't do anything, Brown would've already take the gun completely and shot Wilson. That's why he stopped him. And people are taking Wilson's actions as murder? That's messed up.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to see your opinion or something you're about to say.


I honestly don't care about any of this

- - - Post Merge - - -



Apple2012 said:


> Before I prove it, I would like it if you DO NOT ask me to cite my sources. It's not worth my time, and it reminds me of a horrible forum experience I had before. That, and the site rules does not require citing sources about information like this.
> 
> Anyway, what Michael Brown did was that he grabbed for Wilson's gun. If he didn't do anything, Brown would've already take the gun completely and shot Wilson. That's why he stopped him. And people are taking Wilson's actions as murder? That's messed up.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to see your opinion or something you're about to say.



okay I honestly doubt that

- - - Post Merge - - -

but either way no one can make you do anything


----------



## Alolan_Apples

Milky-Chii said:


> The reason it's important to cite your sources is so you have proof to back up what you're saying although I'm sure you already know that. It's completely fine if you don't want to, but it doesn't make anything you say very credible especially when others have sources to prove otherwise. And anyway, the only way he could have "grabbed for his gun" is if his gun was out already which means he already intended to use it.



At least nobody on this site told me to cite my sources in a harsh manner. Whoever harshly told me to cite my sources (came from another site) totally got me to not citing any of my sources at all.

You guys can believe that Wilson was the guilty one, but it won't convince me to believe that he is guilty.


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## Goth

Apple2012 said:


> At least nobody on this site told me to cite my sources in a harsh manner. Whoever harshly told me to cite my sources (came from another site) totally got me to not citing any of my sources at all.



so are you citing your sources or not?


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## tamagotchi

Apple2012 said:


> At least nobody on this site told me to cite my sources in a harsh manner. Whoever harshly told me to cite my sources (came from another site) totally got me to not citing any of my sources at all.
> 
> You guys can believe that Wilson was the guilty one, but it won't convince me to believe that he is guilty.





GaMERCaT said:


> so are you citing your sources or not?



Hopefully so. I'd like to see where this came from, actually. That is, of course, if you're comfortable with that.


----------



## Milky-Chii

Apple2012 said:


> At least nobody on this site told me to cite my sources in a harsh manner. Whoever harshly told me to cite my sources (came from another site) totally got me to not citing any of my sources at all.
> 
> You guys can believe that Wilson was the guilty one, but it won't convince me to believe that he is guilty.



That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion based on what little you know of the situation and you certainly don't have to do anything you don't want to.


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## Goth

Milky-Chii said:


> That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion based on what little you know of the situation and you certainly don't have to do anything you don't want to.



okay can you stop you act civilized by saying you're entitled to their own opinion and then you be a scrub and say "on little you know..." it's their ****ing opinion

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RetroT said:


> Hopefully so. I'd like to see where this came from, actually. That is, of course, if you're comfortable with that.



I'm not getting the full story why wouldn't she be comfortable


----------



## Milky-Chii

GaMERCaT said:


> okay can you stop you act civilized by saying you're entitled to their own opinion and then you be a scrub and say "on little you know..." it's their ****ing opinion
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not getting the full story why wouldn't she be comfortable



Oh no I actually didn't mean it like that. I mean none of us were actually there and eyewitness reports are so mixed so who can really say what happened?


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## Goth

Milky-Chii said:


> Oh no I actually didn't mean it like that. I mean none of us were actually there and eyewitness reports are so mixed so who can really say what happened?



I mean I understand that you don't agree but you should respect their self entitled opinion


----------



## Alolan_Apples

Milky-Chii said:


> That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion based on what little you know of the situation and you certainly don't have to do anything you don't want to.



Right. However, citing sources is required in schools, and some forums moderate or even ban users for posting opinions or false information as facts. I'm not sure if it's against their rules to post facts without citing a source, but posting false information as fact can annoy other people.


----------



## Goth

Apple2012 said:


> Right. However, citing sources is required in schools, and some forums moderate or even ban users for posting opinions or false information as facts. I'm not sure if it's against their rules to post facts without citing a source, but posting false information as fact can annoy other people.



I have an idea try reading the rules


----------



## Caius

It's not a requirement to source here, but it is a good idea anyway.

This isn't school but with serious topics where you're trying to prove a point citing your sources from a non-biased outlet is _always_ recommended.





GaMERCaT said:


> I have an idea try reading the rules



Stop. Leave the thread if you're going to act like this.


----------



## Milky-Chii

GaMERCaT said:


> I mean I understand that you don't agree but you should respect their self entitled opinion



I do absolutely 0.0 I'm sorry if I came off as rude I really didn't mean it that way. She has every right to her opinion and it certainly doesn't bother me.


----------



## M O L K O

Do I really gotta clean up another thread?

After reading the first page looks like I do

ok boys and girls, from the master post

I’m literally so disgusted by people’s response to the Ferguson case. Let me lay down some facts - with sources. This is long so sit tight and grab a snack or two. I’ve seen a lot of different master-posts floating around, so I tried to make the “ultimate” master-post.
I think it’s important to note that the town of Ferguson, MO is a town that is not unfamiliar with segregation and unequal representation. The police in Ferguson are actually involved with the KKK. A choice transcript is as follows:
MSNBC: Have you been talking to law enforcement?
Frank Ancona: I have. 
MSNBC: What are those conversations like?
Frank Ancona: Well, uh, depending on who you talk to, and of course, ya know all these things are off the record, but uh a lot of them are very frustrated with, ya know how the governor has basically sided with the criminals in a lot of instances..
MSNBC: Wait a second, wait a second, Frank you have law enforcement confiding in you, as a grand wizard of the KKK you’re telling me that you have local law enforcement talking to you personally off the record?
Frank Ancona: No, nah I’m telling you I have- I-I have friends who know people in law enforcement. I’ll just put it that way.
MSNBC: Oh you have friends who, oh right.
Frank Ancona: Right, right.
Darren Wilson is also allegedly involved with the KKK. In fact, as a police officer, Darren Wilson has a history of harassment and racial profiling.
Michael Brown did not steal Cigarillos from the convenience store. There is footage of him paying for it. In fact, the store owner and the store employees never reported having anything stolen from the store. The store owner even stated that he did not believe it was Michael Brown on the video tape of the robbery. The time stamps on the robbery video do not line up with the time that Michael Brown was shot. Darren Wilson was not responding to a robbery call prior to stopping Michael Brown and Dorian Johnson. This is not a David and Goliath story. Michael Brown was not a huge monstrous “Hulk Hogan" (pg 212 of 286) "demon.” (pg 225 of 286) By his own admission, Darren Wilson is the same exact height (pg 198 of 286) - 6’ 4”ft. Granted, Michael Brown weighed approximately 80lbs more. However, despite the alleged altercation that occurred between them, Darren Wilson did not feel that his “injuries” warranted going to the hospital. (pg 248 of 286) He, in fact, had extremely minor injuries. These injuries cannot be proved without a doubt that they were not self-inflicted or shaving injuries due to their location and severity, or rosacea or other erythema. His injuries had faded significantly by the time it was to take evidence photos. His injury photos show visible redness of the face in peak rosacea zones such as the nose, forehead, and cheeks. Rosacea is common in white populations around Darren Wilson’s age. At no time (pgs 208 - 286) did Darren Wilson tell either Dorian Johnson or Michael Brown that they were being detained on suspicion of robbery. In fact, Darren Wilson had no idea there even was a robbery. It would have been extremely difficult for Michael Brown to remove the gun from Darren Wilson’s holster in order to discharge it. The only way Michael Brown could have had it was if Darren Wilson had already pulled it. Furthermore, being intoxicated on marijuana would have slowed his movement and reaction time significantly. Michael Brown was also a significant distance away from Darren Wilson’s SUV when he was fatally shot. All four of the following must be met in order to claim self-defense:
You must use force to protect yourself when in danger of serious injury or death.
Unless you are in your own house, you must retreat if possible before resorting to force. 
You must show that you did not start the altercation. 
You cannot use more force than necessary to stop an unprovoked attack.
While the others are debatable, Darren Wilson provides testimony that he opted to pursue Michael Brown (pg 226 of 286) and thus did not adhere to the second condition. Michael Brown was undeniably shot facing Darren Wilson with his hands up, and continued to be shot while he was falling to the ground. Darren Wilson did not complete an incident report following the alleged altercation between himself and Michael Brown. This is a direct violation of Missouri Public Records Law; the denial of the records is a civil violation of the law. The “knowing” violation constitutes a Class A Misdemeanor in Missouri. There is also no use of force report.
There has been speculation that Darren Wilson chose to marry another police officer in the midst of the Ferguson case for spousal rights regarding testimony.
Despite Dorian Johnson supposedly being involved in a robbery with Michael Brown, the police refused to interview him, even after he offered. They did not conduct interviews until five days after the fatal shooting of Michael Brown. The case was actually severely mishandled; the forensic investigator did not take any photographs because the “battery in [his] camera died.” Six eyewitnesses had the same exact account of what happened between Michael Brown and Darren Wilson. None of these witnesses have changed their stories, or knew each other prior to the Ferguson case, with two exceptions. In fact, four of the eyewitness testimony can be lined up in chronological order. The prosecuting attorney actually supported Darren Wilson. The grand jury, which consisted of nine white people - the number it takes to reach an official decision - and three people of colour, was presented with an outdated, unconstitutional law (pg 5 of 286) that would have justified the use of force against fleeing suspects. This law became void in 1985. Darren Wilson also provided conflicting testimony, saying in his police interview that Michael Brown hit him with his left hand (pg 6 of 18), while in his grand jury testimony states that Michael Brown hit him with his right hand. (pg 211 of 286) Darren Wilson does not view Michael Brown as a human being; Darren Wilson dehumanizes Michael Brown in his testimony by saying “it looks like a demon.” (pg 225 of 286)  Former New York state Chief Judge Sol Wachtler remarked that it’s incredibly rare for a grand jury to do what Ferguson’s just did. The data suggests he was barely exaggerating: According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. attorneys prosecuted 162,000 federal cases in 2010, the most recent year for which we have data. Grand juries declined to return an indictment in 11 of them. The first grand jury had to be reassigned because one member talked about how they would let Darren Wilson go free. The Ferguson police chief had no intention of firing Darren Wilson if he wasn’t indicted. 
With all that said, it does not matter if Michael Brown had stolen the cigarillos. It does not matter if Michael Brown had assaulted Darren Wilson. It does not matter if Michael Brown was emboldened or shy, a delinquent or an honors student. What matters is that Michael Brown is a human being, and that is the sole reason that he should not have been executed. No matter how you dice it, it was illegal for Darren Wilson to fatally shoot Michael Brown.
The police response to all of these riots that broke out were noticeably without tear gas, rubber bullets, and other means of force. However, Ferguson police fired rubber bullets at peaceful protesters. This is a violation of the First Amendment, which guarantees the freedom of speech and right to assemble. In fact, there are multiple instances of evidence demonstrating the police’s use of excessive force against peaceful civilians both protesting and not protesting. The protests remained, for the large part, entirely peaceful. Protesters and community members cleaned up afterwards, with the police force notably absent.
What would Martin Luther King, Jr. say about these protests? We don’t really know, because despite all of the peaceful protests he led, he was still shot in the head for believing everyone should be treated equally.

Also lemme source myself [x]
This is also where you can find links to sources.
Stay peaceful and strong everyone and most importantly stay safe!


----------



## Alolan_Apples

ZR388 said:


> It's not a requirement to source here, but it is a good idea anyway.
> 
> This isn't school but with serious topics where you're trying to prove a point citing your sources from a non-biased outlet is _always_ recommended.



Thank you. I'll start citing my sources for now on. In addition, I will avoid using Wikipedia as place to cite sources.


----------



## f11

M O L K O said:


> Do I really gotta clean up another thread?


please. So many uninformed people here.


----------



## Caius

Apple2012 said:


> Thank you. I'll start citing my sources for now on. In addition, I will avoid using Wikipedia as place to cite sources.



Wikipedia is fine. It usually includes source material in the footnotes you can use.


----------



## Goth

inb4 flame war and lock

you need to cite yourself for proof so if you say something like the officer killed the guy for fun you need something besides a satire news website

- - - Post Merge - - -



Apple2012 said:


> Thank you. I'll start citing my sources for now on. In addition, I will avoid using Wikipedia as place to cite sources.



wikipedia? don't you know anyone can change those my school wont let us use those for reference


----------



## Caius

GaMERCaT said:


> inb4 flame war and lock
> 
> you need to cite yourself for proof so if you say something like the officer killed the guy for fun you need something besides a satire news website
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> 
> 
> wikipedia? don't you know anyone can change those my school wont let us use those for reference



Which is why you use sourced material in the footer. Now drop it.


----------



## Milky-Chii

M O L K O said:


> Do I really gotta clean up another thread?
> 
> After reading the first page looks like I do
> 
> ok boys and girls, from the master post
> 
> I?m literally so disgusted by people?s response to the Ferguson case. Let me lay down some facts - with sources. This is long so sit tight and grab a snack or two. I?ve seen a lot of different master-posts floating around, so I tried to make the ?ultimate? master-post.
> I think it?s important to note that the town of Ferguson, MO is a town that is not unfamiliar with segregation and unequal representation. The police in Ferguson are actually involved with the KKK. A choice transcript is as follows:
> MSNBC: Have you been talking to law enforcement?
> Frank Ancona: I have.
> MSNBC: What are those conversations like?
> Frank Ancona: Well, uh, depending on who you talk to, and of course, ya know all these things are off the record, but uh a lot of them are very frustrated with, ya know how the governor has basically sided with the criminals in a lot of instances..
> MSNBC: Wait a second, wait a second, Frank you have law enforcement confiding in you, as a grand wizard of the KKK you?re telling me that you have local law enforcement talking to you personally off the record?
> Frank Ancona: No, nah I?m telling you I have- I-I have friends who know people in law enforcement. I?ll just put it that way.
> MSNBC: Oh you have friends who, oh right.
> Frank Ancona: Right, right.
> Darren Wilson is also allegedly involved with the KKK. In fact, as a police officer, Darren Wilson has a history of harassment and racial profiling.
> Michael Brown did not steal Cigarillos from the convenience store. There is footage of him paying for it. In fact, the store owner and the store employees never reported having anything stolen from the store. The store owner even stated that he did not believe it was Michael Brown on the video tape of the robbery. The time stamps on the robbery video do not line up with the time that Michael Brown was shot. Darren Wilson was not responding to a robbery call prior to stopping Michael Brown and Dorian Johnson. This is not a David and Goliath story. Michael Brown was not a huge monstrous ?Hulk Hogan" (pg 212 of 286) "demon.? (pg 225 of 286) By his own admission, Darren Wilson is the same exact height (pg 198 of 286) - 6? 4?ft. Granted, Michael Brown weighed approximately 80lbs more. However, despite the alleged altercation that occurred between them, Darren Wilson did not feel that his ?injuries? warranted going to the hospital. (pg 248 of 286) He, in fact, had extremely minor injuries. These injuries cannot be proved without a doubt that they were not self-inflicted or shaving injuries due to their location and severity, or rosacea or other erythema. His injuries had faded significantly by the time it was to take evidence photos. His injury photos show visible redness of the face in peak rosacea zones such as the nose, forehead, and cheeks. Rosacea is common in white populations around Darren Wilson?s age. At no time (pgs 208 - 286) did Darren Wilson tell either Dorian Johnson or Michael Brown that they were being detained on suspicion of robbery. In fact, Darren Wilson had no idea there even was a robbery. It would have been extremely difficult for Michael Brown to remove the gun from Darren Wilson?s holster in order to discharge it. The only way Michael Brown could have had it was if Darren Wilson had already pulled it. Furthermore, being intoxicated on marijuana would have slowed his movement and reaction time significantly. Michael Brown was also a significant distance away from Darren Wilson?s SUV when he was fatally shot. All four of the following must be met in order to claim self-defense:
> You must use force to protect yourself when in danger of serious injury or death.
> Unless you are in your own house, you must retreat if possible before resorting to force.
> You must show that you did not start the altercation.
> You cannot use more force than necessary to stop an unprovoked attack.
> While the others are debatable, Darren Wilson provides testimony that he opted to pursue Michael Brown (pg 226 of 286) and thus did not adhere to the second condition. Michael Brown was undeniably shot facing Darren Wilson with his hands up, and continued to be shot while he was falling to the ground. Darren Wilson did not complete an incident report following the alleged altercation between himself and Michael Brown. This is a direct violation of Missouri Public Records Law; the denial of the records is a civil violation of the law. The ?knowing? violation constitutes a Class A Misdemeanor in Missouri. There is also no use of force report.
> There has been speculation that Darren Wilson chose to marry another police officer in the midst of the Ferguson case for spousal rights regarding testimony.
> Despite Dorian Johnson supposedly being involved in a robbery with Michael Brown, the police refused to interview him, even after he offered. They did not conduct interviews until five days after the fatal shooting of Michael Brown. The case was actually severely mishandled; the forensic investigator did not take any photographs because the ?battery in [his] camera died.? Six eyewitnesses had the same exact account of what happened between Michael Brown and Darren Wilson. None of these witnesses have changed their stories, or knew each other prior to the Ferguson case, with two exceptions. In fact, four of the eyewitness testimony can be lined up in chronological order. The prosecuting attorney actually supported Darren Wilson. The grand jury, which consisted of nine white people - the number it takes to reach an official decision - and three people of colour, was presented with an outdated, unconstitutional law (pg 5 of 286) that would have justified the use of force against fleeing suspects. This law became void in 1985. Darren Wilson also provided conflicting testimony, saying in his police interview that Michael Brown hit him with his left hand (pg 6 of 18), while in his grand jury testimony states that Michael Brown hit him with his right hand. (pg 211 of 286) Darren Wilson does not view Michael Brown as a human being; Darren Wilson dehumanizes Michael Brown in his testimony by saying ?it looks like a demon.? (pg 225 of 286)  Former New York state Chief Judge Sol Wachtler remarked that it?s incredibly rare for a grand jury to do what Ferguson?s just did. The data suggests he was barely exaggerating: According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. attorneys prosecuted 162,000 federal cases in 2010, the most recent year for which we have data. Grand juries declined to return an indictment in 11 of them. The first grand jury had to be reassigned because one member talked about how they would let Darren Wilson go free. The Ferguson police chief had no intention of firing Darren Wilson if he wasn?t indicted.
> With all that said, it does not matter if Michael Brown had stolen the cigarillos. It does not matter if Michael Brown had assaulted Darren Wilson. It does not matter if Michael Brown was emboldened or shy, a delinquent or an honors student. What matters is that Michael Brown is a human being, and that is the sole reason that he should not have been executed. No matter how you dice it, it was illegal for Darren Wilson to fatally shoot Michael Brown.
> The police response to all of these riots that broke out were noticeably without tear gas, rubber bullets, and other means of force. However, Ferguson police fired rubber bullets at peaceful protesters. This is a violation of the First Amendment, which guarantees the freedom of speech and right to assemble. In fact, there are multiple instances of evidence demonstrating the police?s use of excessive force against peaceful civilians both protesting and not protesting. The protests remained, for the large part, entirely peaceful. Protesters and community members cleaned up afterwards, with the police force notably absent.
> What would Martin Luther King, Jr. say about these protests? We don?t really know, because despite all of the peaceful protests he led, he was still shot in the head for believing everyone should be treated equally.
> 
> Also lemme source myself [x]
> This is also where you can find links to sources.
> Stay peaceful and strong everyone and most importantly stay safe!



Not sure if I should have snipped this or not but thank you soooo much for this post, it's really helpful to have all this info in one spot.


----------



## M O L K O

Crys said:


> please. So many uninformed people here.



Just posted the master list of information and source which has a huge collection of sources. Last post on page 9.

Stay informed and safe everyone <3


----------



## Caius

Milky-Chii said:


> Not sure if I should have snipped this or not but thank you soooo much for this post, it's really helpful to have all this info in one spot.



No snipping required. It's a good post. 

Honestly I'm more concerned with the case itself being something I don't feel I can judge with lack of eyewitness. Not the protests. The protests are probably the real tragedy out of all of this. It's both sides in these un-peaceful protests that's causing a lot of problems, but it does come down to people believing they have to martyr at some points or cause destruction and death *worse than the incident between the officer and the suspect* to make a point.

It's just gotten entirely out of hand, and that's a damn shame.


----------



## Goth

ZR388 said:


> No snipping required. It's a good post.
> 
> Honestly I'm more concerned with the case itself being something I don't feel I can judge with lack of eyewitness. Not the protests. The protests are probably the real tragedy out of all of this. It's both sides in these un-peaceful protests that's causing a lot of problems, but it does come down to people believing they have to martyr at some points or cause destruction and death *worse than the incident between the officer and the suspect* to make a point.
> 
> It's just gotten entirely out of hand, and that's a damn shame.



so why is this even a thread besides to inform people there's not really discussion more like debate when there is plenty of reasons the officer should be charged with murder

but whatever
-SH


----------



## LambdaDelta

M O L K O said:


> Do I really gotta clean up another thread?
> 
> After reading the first page looks like I do
> 
> ok boys and girls, from the master post
> 
> *snip*



*applause*


----------



## Caius

GaMERCaT said:


> so why is this even a thread besides to inform people there's not really discussion more like debate when there is plenty of reasons the officer should be charged with murder
> 
> but whatever
> -SH



Tone back the sass. People agree with the officer, people agree with the suspect. It's a two way thing and just how it is. Above was *my opinion.* Not fact. Opinion does not a fact make, and that's why we have a thread.


----------



## M O L K O

ZR388 said:


> No snipping required. It's a good post.
> 
> Honestly I'm more concerned with the case itself being something I don't feel I can judge with lack of eyewitness. Not the protests. The protests are probably the real tragedy out of all of this. It's both sides in these un-peaceful protests that's causing a lot of problems, but it does come down to people believing they have to martyr at some points or cause destruction and death *worse than the incident between the officer and the suspect* to make a point.
> 
> It's just gotten entirely out of hand, and that's a damn shame.



There are and have been peaceful protests for* 4 months* on. With all due respect there were the blood and crips protecting local business.._blood and crips_ for god sakes. Not to mention the community (protestors included) cleaning up. Looting is wrong I 100% agree but when you've been peaceful protesting while being tear gassed, pushed round, and jailed, and then after all that the man who has gotten a million dollars out of this, walks away with NO jail time. You bet your oranges theres going to be hysteria and chaos for one night. One night of chaos overshadows 4 months of protesting peacefully? Teargassing citizens??? Please tell me how that is fair.

Also eyewitness? There were a few who said his hands were up and that Darren did not report to the convient store for a robbery at all. 

Yes you may not be able to judge due to lack of knowledge but the information is out there and so are all the eyewitness accounts.


----------



## Mahoushoujo

M O L K O said:


> snip


thank u so much for this masterpost bless


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## Alolan_Apples

ZR388 said:


> No snipping required. It's a good post.
> 
> Honestly I'm more concerned with the case itself being something I don't feel I can judge with lack of eyewitness. Not the protests. The protests are probably the real tragedy out of all of this. It's both sides in these un-peaceful protests that's causing a lot of problems, but it does come down to people believing they have to martyr at some points or cause destruction and death *worse than the incident between the officer and the suspect* to make a point.
> 
> It's just gotten entirely out of hand, and that's a damn shame.



I completely agree on this. Killing is horrible, but these riots were even worse. Especially for the reason being.


----------



## Caius

M O L K O said:


> There are and have been peaceful protests for* 4 months* on. With all due respect there were the blood and crips protecting local business.._blood and crips_ for god sakes. Not to mention the community (protestors included) cleaning up. Looting is wrong I 100% agree but when you've been peaceful protesting while being tear gassed, pushed round, and jailed, and then after all that the man who has gotten a million dollars out of this, walks away with NO jail time. You bet your oranges theres going to be hysteria and chaos for one night. One night of chaos overshadows 4 months of protesting peacefully? Teargassing citizens??? Please tell me how that is fair.
> 
> Also eyewitness? There were a few who said his hands were up and that Darren did not report to the convient store for a robbery at all.
> 
> Yes you may not be able to judge due to lack of knowledge but the information is out there and so are all the eyewitness accounts.



Keep in mind it's not only the protesters causing problems. There are people outside the protesters that were causing damages and issues during that four month period. It all comes back to being blamed on the protesters because they were the ones out facing down the police at the time, regardless of it being peaceful or not.

Alright, since there were eyewitness accounts of it then it is more accountable. I wasn't aware of that fact (and I'm not in a state where I can dig through sources right now or I would be.) I'm still not comfortable saying what did or did not happen.

Also:


Apple2012 said:


> I completely agree on this. Killing is horrible, but these riots were even worse. Especially for the reason being. This is the worst thing that happened in America in the 21st century.



No it's not.


----------



## Goth

ZR388 said:


> Tone back the sass. People agree with the officer, people agree with the suspect. It's a two way thing and just how it is. Above was *my opinion.* Not fact. Opinion does not a fact make, and that's why we have a thread.



I can't help it I'm a sassy diva

I know it's a two way thing different people can have different opinions but honestly if the victim was unarmed and not being threatening at all and the officer could escape if he could he shouldn't have shoot him at all and 6 times at the head it sounded like he wanted to kill him and make up an excuse


----------



## MishMeesh

The whole issue that people are protesting is not whether or not Darren Wilson should be found guilty of something, but whether or not he should at least stand trial for what he did. Whether Michael Brown's death at the hands of a cop should be given due process. It should be noted that the grand jury failing to indict hardly ever happens. (x) (There are also primary sources linked in this article for anyone interested)

This video outlines what enormous, dire "mistakes" that were made during the jury's deliberation provided by the prosecutors, such as giving them outdated laws to consider that had been ruled as unconstitutional since 1985.


----------



## LambdaDelta

Darren Wilson is guilty, no question.

Even ignoring the obvious race issue at hand, the fact that officers are allowed to shoot to kill without so much as a second thought is absolutely sickening. 


If the officer must shoot, first and foremost they should shoot to incapacitate. Shooting to kill should only be used in dire situations, which I don't ever recall this being one that warranted it.


Not to mention, I hate how Wilson was on paid leave or whatever as well during the time this was going down. His police section should of also had to face charges for that imo.


----------



## Goth

ZR388 said:


> Keep in mind it's not only the protesters causing problems. There are people outside the protesters that were causing damages and issues during that four month period. It all comes back to being blamed on the protesters because they were the ones out facing down the police at the time, regardless of it being peaceful or not.
> 
> Alright, since there were eyewitness accounts of it then it is more accountable. I wasn't aware of that fact (and I'm not in a state where I can dig through sources right now or I would be.) I'm still not comfortable saying what did or did not happen.
> 
> Also:
> 
> 
> No it's not.



I agree it is not I honestly think the worst thing so far is the school shooting sometime about 2013 all those little kids died


----------



## M O L K O

ZR388 said:


> Keep in mind it's not only the protesters causing problems. There are people outside the protesters that were causing damages and issues during that four month period. It all comes back to being blamed on the protesters because they were the ones out facing down the police at the time, regardless of it being peaceful or not.
> 
> Alright, since there were eyewitness accounts of it then it is more accountable. I wasn't aware of that fact (and I'm not in a state where I can dig through sources right now or I would be.) I'm still not comfortable saying what did or did not happen.
> 
> Also:
> 
> 
> No it's not.



Are you referring to august when that other looting incident occurred? That was bad, not as bad as the night D*rren was set free but yes. I agree, and it's sad that protestors have to deal with that. There are tons of live streams out there of the protest. I've seen the reporters tear gassed and cussed at. I remember one night the SWAT team was out there when all they were doing was chanting. ****s crazy. I also want to applaud you for not making an uninformed opinion until you have read the sources and have come to a conclusion yourself. I hope I didn't come off to strong but I do understand your points and agree with them for the most part.


----------



## Goth

ugh this thread makes the usa sound like a horrible place but it is I want to move to the uk

- - - Post Merge - - -

I would want to move to the japan but I'm not good at learning languages I failed at both Spanish and french


----------



## MishMeesh

But why are people demonizing these protests when there have been numerous worse riots started by white people after sports games lol (x)


----------



## Bread Kennedys

To be honest, I don't know and I honestly couldn't care less at this point. Call me whenever this is over.


----------



## Caius

M O L K O said:


> Are you referring to august when that other looting incident occurred? That was bad, not as bad as the night D*rren was set free but yes. I agree, and it's sad that protestors have to deal with that. There are tons of live streams out there of the protest. I've seen the reporters tear gassed and cussed at. I remember one night the SWAT team was out there when all they were doing was chanting. ****s crazy. I also want to applaud you for not making an uninformed opinion until you have read the sources and have come to a conclusion yourself. I hope I didn't come off to strong but I do understand your points and agree with them for the most part.



I remember the streams. Gallows and I watched all of them. 

Again, a lot of the stuff you didn't see was some of the stuff I'm talking about. The national guard was out there for more than just the protesters, and the peaceful ones were the people that got the short end of the stick. This whole situation reminds me of the OJ case and the East side/West side skirmish from the 90's. It was just like this. The only difference was it wasn't an officer that was involved. There were protests, riots, and nothing stopped for a very long time. 

As I said before, it's just a damn shame. 

Also gamercat stay on topic or leave.



MishMeesh said:


> But why are people demonizing these protests when there have been numerous worse riots started by white people after sports games lol (x)



I'd demonize those too. They're not right either. I can also gaurentee you that not every person in those riots were white.


----------



## Goth

ZR388 said:


> I remember the streams. Gallows and I watched all of them.
> 
> Again, a lot of the stuff you didn't see was some of the stuff I'm talking about. The national guard was out there for more than just the protesters, and the peaceful ones were the people that got the short end of the stick. This whole situation reminds me of the OJ case and the East side/West side skirmish from the 90's. It was just like this. The only difference was it wasn't an officer that was involved. There were protests, riots, and nothing stopped for a very long time.
> 
> As I said before, it's just a damn shame.
> 
> Also gamercat stay on topic or leave.


damn it Jamie
but the protesters should have not protested to that extent it's like nobody in the us knows what a peaceful protest is they should have taken this up maturely


----------



## Caius

GaMERCaT said:


> damn it Jamie
> but the protesters should have not protested to that extent it's like nobody in the us knows what a peaceful protest is they should have taken this up maturely



That's not exactly true. The "occupy wal street" movement was completely peaceful.


----------



## M O L K O

MishMeesh said:


> But why are people demonizing these protests when there have been numerous worse riots started by white people after sports games lol (x)



I was going to keep it cute but lets go


Spoiler: look














Spoiler: at all this













Spoiler: over some good 'ole













Spoiler: sports<3











and 2 keep it with OP, how are these  better than people chanting over an injustice death? Now granted these morons deal with ridicule and police but then again they're rioting over a game..and not someones death.


----------



## radical6

Nice, another Ferguson thread.
Accidentally voted "IDK" when I voted yes. Oops.

I'm angry that this is trying to be covered up. Tumblr staff and youtube are deleting stuff related to Ferguson. Posts have been circulating where there's proof of Wilson having ties with the KKK. A day later? Deleted. Dox of KKK members? Deleted. But when trans/queer youth get doxed? Staff doesn't give a ****. Staff doesn't give a **** about child porn on people's blogs either. It's even worse that in Boston rn they are targeting queer/trans POC who are protesting atm. 

Wilson is guilty. He murdered a kid. Do not bring in weight and height because they were literally the same anyway. Brown was killed for jaywalking, are you kidding me? He did not steal. There is film evidence he paid for his cigarettes. But even if he did steal, Wilson would've had no knowledge of that.

Brown was not a criminal. His teachers have spoken about him, and he was described as sweet. Hell, he didn't join the football team even tho he could because he didn't want to hurt anyone. He was a child. He was innocent. But it doesn't matter if he was an angel or not. No matter what, his life still mattered. He did not put his hands on Wilson. He never attacked Wilson. Wilson has no injuries, but he's claiming the birthmark on the back of his neck is an injury so lol. 

Protests have been mostly peaceful. It's just the anarchists causing **** as always, because anarchy man! Or it's people from neighboring towns who are using this as a chance to steal. 

But I'm honestly sick by some of you. He was a child. No one deserves to get shot 7 times and then to have their body left out in the street. Brown is not the first to die from police brutality, and he isn't the last. If you honestly don't think this has anything to do with race, then wow. I've heard the argument "HOW COME NO ONE TALKS ABOUT BLACK ON WHITE OR BLACK ON BLACK CRIME?!" uh maybe because most of the time in those cases they're brought to justice? white on black crime is a huge problem.

A 12 year old black boy was shot for holding a toy gun. (He didn't ****ing aim it at the police.) His name was Tamir Rice. And already, I see people justifying his death. A 12 year old gets shot and people are congratulating the ****ing police. Tell me this isn't racism at it's finest.

Or how about when 12 year old Dymond Milburn was severely beaten by 3 police officers because they thought she was a sex worker? They caused her injuries to her spine, neck, and head. She was later charged with assault and one of the cops were rewarded with "cop of the year" award. I don't give a **** if she maybe fought back, it was one little 12 year old girl vs 3 grown men with weapons. In what world does that ****ing make sense.

Black people are targeted by cops. It's a thing. How people choose to ignore it astounds me. There's proof of him being somewhat connected to the ****ing KKK. His supporters are tied to the KKK and he can be seen talking to them. The ****ing KKK started a gofundme fund for him and got MORE money than the MICHAEL BROWN MEMORIAL FUND did. I'm even more ****ing disgusted people are PAYING to interview him. There are people below the poverty line who will never make as much as him, but he ****ing gets paid in hundreds for murdering a young black boy.

If this doesn't anger you, then I don't know what to say to you.


----------



## Goth

ZR388 said:


> That's not exactly true. The "occupy wal street" movement was completely peaceful.



I know I exaggerating but look at those now they look horrible with the deaths and injuries and such then compare them to the peaceful ones the numbers are very different obviously


----------



## M O L K O

ZR388 said:


> I remember the streams. Gallows and I watched all of them.
> 
> Again, a lot of the stuff you didn't see was some of the stuff I'm talking about. The national guard was out there for more than just the protesters, and the peaceful ones were the people that got the short end of the stick. This whole situation reminds me of the OJ case and the East side/West side skirmish from the 90's. It was just like this. The only difference was it wasn't an officer that was involved. There were protests, riots, and nothing stopped for a very long time.
> 
> As I said before, it's just a damn shame.
> 
> Also gamercat stay on topic or leave.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd demonize those too. They're not right either. I can also gaurentee you that not every person in those riots were white.



Can I ask a serious question? What would want the protestors to do? Based on the answers you've responded with I'm kinda confused where you're coming from. Do you think they should still peacefully protest or?


----------



## MishMeesh

ZR388 said:


> I'd demonize those too. They're not right either. I can also gaurentee you that not every person in those riots were white.



I understand that, however the point is that they weren't demonized nearly to the same extent by the media and the general public, particularly seen by the fact that militarized tanks and sound cannons were not brought in try to end them. And I am very aware of the fact that the riots listed did not literally consist of 100% white people (just as the ferguson protests are not 100% black people), but the fact remains that they were instigated by groups of people and/or fan-bases that consist primarily of white people, and that most images you can find of people participating in violent acts during these riots were white.

EDIT: I make the distinction between Ferguson as protests and the examples I mentioned above as riots because Ferguson protestors are working towards a cause of social change, whereas sports riots are riots because???? ??? who really knows why they do it


----------



## M O L K O

justice said:


> Snips


If anyone needs sources on Tamir hmu. There's video evidence, I can't/*will not* post on this site. but do know its out there..


----------



## Nuclear Bingo

justice said:


> Nice, another Ferguson thread.
> Accidentally voted "IDK" when I voted yes. Oops.
> 
> I'm angry that this is trying to be covered up. Tumblr staff and youtube are deleting stuff related to Ferguson. Posts have been circulating where there's proof of Wilson having ties with the KKK. A day later? Deleted. Dox of KKK members? Deleted. But when trans/queer youth get doxed? Staff doesn't give a ****. Staff doesn't give a **** about child porn on people's blogs either. It's even worse that in Boston rn they are targeting queer/trans POC who are protesting atm.
> 
> Wilson is guilty. He murdered a kid. Do not bring in weight and height because they were literally the same anyway. Brown was killed for jaywalking, are you kidding me? He did not steal. There is film evidence he paid for his cigarettes. But even if he did steal, Wilson would've had no knowledge of that.
> 
> Brown was not a criminal. His teachers have spoken about him, and he was described as sweet. Hell, he didn't join the football team even tho he could because he didn't want to hurt anyone. He was a child. He was innocent. But it doesn't matter if he was an angel or not. No matter what, his life still mattered. He did not put his hands on Wilson. He never attacked Wilson. Wilson has no injuries, but he's claiming the birthmark on the back of his neck is an injury so lol.
> 
> Protests have been mostly peaceful. It's just the anarchists causing **** as always, because anarchy man! Or it's people from neighboring towns who are using this as a chance to steal.
> 
> But I'm honestly sick by some of you. He was a child. No one deserves to get shot 7 times and then to have their body left out in the street. Brown is not the first to die from police brutality, and he isn't the last. If you honestly don't think this has anything to do with race, then wow. I've heard the argument "HOW COME NO ONE TALKS ABOUT BLACK ON WHITE OR BLACK ON BLACK CRIME?!" uh maybe because most of the time in those cases they're brought to justice? white on black crime is a huge problem.
> 
> A 12 year old black boy was shot for holding a toy gun. (He didn't ****ing aim it at the police.) His name was Tamir Rice. And already, I see people justifying his death. A 12 year old gets shot and people are congratulating the ****ing police. Tell me this isn't racism at it's finest.
> 
> Or how about when 12 year old Dymond Milburn was severely beaten by 3 police officers because they thought she was a sex worker? They caused her injuries to her spine, neck, and head. She was later charged with assault and one of the cops were rewarded with "cop of the year" award. I don't give a **** if she maybe fought back, it was one little 12 year old girl vs 3 grown men with weapons. In what world does that ****ing make sense.
> 
> Black people are targeted by cops. It's a thing. How people choose to ignore it astounds me. There's proof of him being somewhat connected to the ****ing KKK. His supporters are tied to the KKK and he can be seen talking to them. The ****ing KKK started a gofundme fund for him and got MORE money than the MICHAEL BROWN MEMORIAL FUND did. I'm even more ****ing disgusted people are PAYING to interview him. There are people below the poverty line who will never make as much as him, but he ****ing gets paid in hundreds for murdering a young black boy.
> 
> If this doesn't anger you, then I don't know what to say to you.



http://downtrend.com/71superb/unarm...riots-al-sharpton-silent-obama-keeps-golfing/


----------



## M O L K O

Nuclear Bingo said:


> http://downtrend.com/71superb/unarm...riots-al-sharpton-silent-obama-keeps-golfing/





> Actually, this case sounds much worse than the Ferguson one. By most accounts, Michael Brown attacked the officer that shot him, but Taylor did nothing even close to that. He was apparently listening to music with headphones on when the police arrived. He ignored their commands briefly because he didn’t notice them. Eventually, the cops got his attention and he turned off the music


Boy if you don't...


----------



## radical6

Nuclear Bingo said:


> http://downtrend.com/71superb/unarm...riots-al-sharpton-silent-obama-keeps-golfing/



did i say that white people who are murdered always get justice? but these are rare compared to the amount of black people getting shot for the most absurd reasons. i feel sorry for the guy, cops are violent nowadays. i could bring up more cases of black people getting shot like holding a toy gun in walmart, or cosplaying with a toy sword. yes, sometimes white people get shot for bad reasons. but thats very little compared to the amount of black people getting shot for doing ordinary things


----------



## M O L K O

Also Bingo..try not posting irrelevant information thats not true..like at all
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=31772096
Body cam helps justify fatal south salt lake shooting

Dillon Taylor, 20, is clearly looking at the officer but refuses to take his hands out of his waistband as he was ordered to do and continues to walk backwards.

"No, fool," Taylor is heard saying.

Moments later, Taylor quickly lifts his shirt and takes his hands out of his waistband. Salt Lake police officer Bron Cruz reacts by firing two quick shots, striking Taylor in the chest and stomach. Taylor died as a result of his injuries.

and also from body cam footage

As Taylor continued to walk away from the officer and refused to show his hands, Cruz said, "I was 100 percent, 100 percent convinced when I saw him turn around it was gonna be a gunfight. I knew he had that gun, that he'd be trying to kill us."

The officer told investigators that Taylor wasn't just "pulling up his pants" when he had his hands in his waistband.

Now back to the OP please?


----------



## Nuclear Bingo

M O L K O said:


> Also Bingo..try not posting irrelevant information thats not true..like at all
> http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=31772096
> Body cam helps justify fatal south salt lake shooting
> 
> Dillon Taylor, 20, is clearly looking at the officer but refuses to take his hands out of his waistband as he was ordered to do and continues to walk backwards.
> 
> "No, fool," Taylor is heard saying.
> 
> Moments later, Taylor quickly lifts his shirt and takes his hands out of his waistband. Salt Lake police officer Bron Cruz reacts by firing two quick shots, striking Taylor in the chest and stomach. Taylor died as a result of his injuries.
> 
> and also from body cam footage
> 
> As Taylor continued to walk away from the officer and refused to show his hands, Cruz said, "I was 100 percent, 100 percent convinced when I saw him turn around it was gonna be a gunfight. I knew he had that gun, that he'd be trying to kill us."
> 
> The officer told investigators that Taylor wasn't just "pulling up his pants" when he had his hands in his waistband.
> 
> Now back to the OP please?



but but the video didn't show what he claimed. It was his word though, right? But okay I'll just go back to reading haha


----------



## Milky-Chii

Nuclear Bingo said:


> but but the video didn't show what he claimed. It was his word though, right? But okay I'll just go back to reading haha



Regardless of how this story really played out, black teenagers are statistically 21 times more likely to be killed by police than whites, and that's also taking into account the crime rates of both races. This one case you mentioned doesn't disregard the real problem here of racial profiling. [x]


----------



## Nuclear Bingo

Milky-Chii said:


> Regardless of how this story really played out, black teenagers are statistically 21 times more likely to be killed by police than whites, and that's also taking into account the crime rates of both races. This one case you mentioned doesn't disregard the real problem here of racial profiling. [x]



I have no argument, continue on


----------



## Ragdoll

Not meaning to start a riot or anything, but that kid probably didn't have a future to live for in the first place anyway.


----------



## M O L K O

Sir Integra said:


> Not meaning to start a riot or anything, but that kid probably didn't have a future to live for in the first place anyway.



Can you explain why you feel that way please? ))


----------



## radical6

Sir Integra said:


> Not meaning to start a riot or anything, but that kid probably didn't have a future to live for in the first place anyway.



he was going to go to university before he got shot but ok 
not to mention it doesnt matter bc u know, he was still a human being who wanted to live


----------



## Milky-Chii

Sir Integra said:


> Not meaning to start a riot or anything, but that kid probably didn't have a future to live for in the first place anyway.



That's kind of a cruel thing to say. You're basically saying it doesn't matter if he died or not because in your opinion his life would have been worthless anyway. How can you just put a value on a human life like that because of the way you perceive it from the outside? I'm sure he had aspirations like any other human being...


----------



## nammie

just gonna leave this here


----------



## KarlaKGB

the one thing we can take away from this is that police should wear cameras all the time

http://www.bizpacreview.com/2014/09...uct-to-media-body-cam-proves-him-wrong-145372

this is a case where a man who was stopped by police lied about his encounter and lied by putting a racial spin on his account

now how about we deal with the fact that black men are shot by other black men everyday and nobody gives a ****


----------



## CookingOkasan

Sir Integra said:


> Not meaning to start a riot or anything, but that kid probably didn't have a future to live for in the first place anyway.



you literally just said black lives DON'T matter....


----------



## Slayer_Buffy

CookingOkasan said:


> you literally just said black lives DON'T matter....


Or anyone for that matter.


----------



## CookingOkasan

NO. not "anyone". BLACK. It's not about anyone. "ALL lives matters" is just interjecting whiteness into a time of grief and solidarity within the black community. and within the context of her post it seems pretty clear she wasn't talking about just "anyone"

anyway I'm just going to avoid the basement for a while because I'm seeing peoples' honest opinions and it's a damn shame.


----------



## Milky-Chii

KarlaKGB said:


> the one thing we can take away from this is that police should wear cameras all the time
> 
> http://www.bizpacreview.com/2014/09...uct-to-media-body-cam-proves-him-wrong-145372
> 
> this is a case where a man who was stopped by police lied about his encounter and lied by putting a racial spin on his account
> 
> now how about we deal with the fact that black men are shot by other black men everyday and nobody gives a ****



People definitely care and it is a big issue but a separate issue entirely. With something like this however someone who is in authority and supposed to be "protecting" citizens is twisting their way around the law. It affects everyone when someone who works for the government is able to get away with something that is completely illegal by using a skewed version of the legal system. This issue is about white cops being able to kill black citizens and not be punished. People are going to be upset when their country's legal system has a bias against you because of your skin color and are able to dismiss your lives because of it.


----------



## KarlaKGB

Witness 10 said:
			
		

> Roughly I wanna say 8:40, I mean not 8:40, 11:40-11:40 is when that-when I first seen these two guys. And, my initial thought was, "wow, that's a big dude." Because Mr. Brown, Mike Brown, my initial thought was he's a big guy. He's tall and like stocky build and that's it. He-he, they both walked passed me. I took my tools, went into I came back outside to get some more stuff and I looked down the street and I seen the police car at a slant and I seen Mr. Brown in the window of the police car looked ...it appeared as they were wrestling through the window and one gunshot had let off. And, Mr. Brown took off running and my first thought was like "oh my gosh" did I actually just witness a police officer being murdered because it took a while for the police officer to get out of the car and pursue the-the suspect. And, I wanna say maybe six seconds, but it seemed like it was forever after the-the-the first gunshot. So, the police officer exited the vehicle with his weapon drawn pursuing Mr. Brown. Mr. Brown was quite a distance and he stopped and when he stopped, he didn't get down on the ground or anything. He turned around and he did some type of movement. I never seen him put his hands up or anything. I can't recall the movement that he did. I'm not sure if he pulled his pants up or-or whatever he did but I seen some type of movement and he started charging towards the police officer. The police officer then returned fire, well, not returned fire, open fire on Mr. Brown. Um, if I had to guess the shots and the-the distance between him and, a, Mr. Brown, it would have to be five to ten yards and the shots that were fired was four, five to six shots fired and Mr.
> Brown was still standing up. Um, and my thoughts was while he's missing this guy this close, is he-is he hitting him or because Mr. Brown there was no reaction from him to show that he was been hit. Um, after that, Mr. Brown then paused. He-he-he stopped running and when he stopped running the police officer stopped firing. And, then Mr. Brown continued, started again to charge towards him and after that the police officer returned fire and um well not returned, I'm using wrong ...a started to fire once more at him. Um, if I had to guess the rounds that were fired then it would be four to five more shots and after that Mr. Brown collapsed and fell to the ground.


having some familiarity with self defence, i can tell u that just because someone isnt armed doesnt mean they arent a threat. especially if they have the opportunity to take control of ur weapon. ppl who say that u shud never shoot a kid, well, this was a big guy. ppl who live their cushy little sjw lives and dont have to deal with violence on a daily basis make all sorts of assumptions about force-on-force encounters.

October 16th testimony paraphrased and summarised:


> So, although you told the investigators this is what you saw even though you only heard it from someone, you don't feel you lied?"
> "Nope."
> "And what did you actually see."
> "I saw Michael Brown on his knees begging for his life as the office stood over him from behind and put a bullet in his head from point blank range."
> "And, given that the forensic evidence tells us otherwise, there's nothing about that testimony you would like to change?"
> "Nope. Maybe the forensic evidence just saw it from a different perspective than I did.


u think these ppl are reliable witnesses in a trial?


http://apps.stlpublicradio.org/ferguson-project/evidence.html
read the court transcripts unless u want to be willfully ignorant


----------



## Caius

M O L K O said:


> Can I ask a serious question? What would want the protestors to do? Based on the answers you've responded with I'm kinda confused where you're coming from. Do you think they should still peacefully protest or?



That's the question isn't it? There's really no way for people to get a statement like this heard with a few peaceful protests that aren't going to blow up in some way. It's the sad truth of it. I truly don't know what I -want- people to do because what I want is for people to stop getting hurt and things to stop getting destroyed.


----------



## Milky-Chii

KarlaKGB said:


> having some familiarity with self defence, i can tell u that just because someone isnt armed doesnt mean they arent a threat. especially if they have the opportunity to take control of ur weapon. ppl who say that u shud never shoot a kid, well, this was a big guy. ppl who live their cushy little sjw lives and dont have to deal with violence on a daily basis make all sorts of assumptions about force-on-force encounters.
> 
> October 16th testimony paraphrased and summarised:
> 
> u think these ppl are reliable witnesses in a trial?
> 
> 
> http://apps.stlpublicradio.org/ferguson-project/evidence.html
> read the court transcripts unless u want to be willfully ignorant




Wouldn't the pictures of his "injuries" show more than just some slight red marks if he was "one blow away from death" as he claimed? Also if he truly did need some form of self-defense, why did he go straight for his gun and not a different weapon on hand? Has he ever heard of a taser? Also you saying he was a "big guy," he was the same height as Wilson. Anyway I've read the transcript and there are definitely things that don't add up not just in what he said during the prosecution, but the things he claimed previously during interviews that had changed. Like him claiming he had more injuries than he did that didn't ever show up on the medical examination nor was there any photo evidence of these claimed injuries. I don't know why you claim people who believe Wilson should have been indicted have cushy lives where none of them have experienced a physical fight though, I don't even know how you came to that conclusion. 

The same could be said about the witnesses who claimed Brown "charged" him as well, but there is far more evidence supporting Wilson used unnecessary force than just the eyewitness accounts who say so.


----------



## KarlaKGB

They could stop making this an all or nothing case about Wilson. They would rather see an innocent man crucified because that's the only form of justice they can comprehend. It makes the entire civil rights movement look like a witch hunting farce

- - - Post Merge - - -



Milky-Chii said:


> Wouldn't the pictures of his "injuries" show more than just some slight red marks if he was "one blow away from death" as he claimed? Also if he truly did need some form of self-defense, why did he go straight for his gun and not a different weapon on hand? Has he ever heard of a taser? Also you saying he was a "big guy," he was the same height as Wilson. Anyway I've read the transcript and there are definitely things that don't add up not just in what he said during the prosecution, but the things he claimed previously during interviews that had changed. Like him claiming he had more injuries than he did that didn't ever show up on the medical examination nor was there any photo evidence of these claimed injuries. I don't know why you claim people who believe Wilson should have been indicted have cushy lives where none of them have experienced a physical fight though, I don't even know how you came to that conclusion.
> 
> The same could be said about the witnesses who claimed Brown "charged" him as well, but there is far more evidence supporting Wilson used unnecessary force than just the eyewitness accounts who say so.



The eye witness account is corroborated by audio recordings. 
Do you know if Wilson had access to taser?


----------



## Brackets

I wish people would stop saying he was a child. No he ****ing well wasn't, he was a huge 18 year old and knew what he was doing. 18 year olds can vote, drive, have jobs, have children. They're adults, maybe not the most mature ones but they're still fully grown adults. I'm 19 and I know what I'm doing, I would hate people to belittle what I do because I'm 'just a child'. 
I'm not saying what happened was right, but I think Brown probably was being threatening. However I do think there's still a race issue in the US that needs to be sorted out. They also really need to sort out their gun laws. If the gun laws were stricter then less police men would have to be armed.


----------



## Caius

Annachie said:


> I wish people would stop saying he was a child. No he ****ing well wasn't, he was a huge 18 year old and knew what he was doing. 18 year olds can vote, drive, have jobs, have children. They're adults, maybe not the most mature ones but they're still fully grown adults. I'm 19 and I know what I'm doing, I would hate people to belittle what I do because I'm 'just a child'.
> I'm not saying what happened was right, but I think Brown probably was being threatening. However I do think there's still a race issue in the US that needs to be sorted out. They also really need to sort out their gun laws. If the gun laws were stricter then less police men would have to be armed.



People in states with less restrictions on guns get shot less. /statistics


----------



## KarlaKGB

Annachie said:


> I wish people would stop saying he was a child. No he ****ing well wasn't, he was a huge 18 year old and knew what he was doing. 18 year olds can vote, drive, have jobs, have children. They're adults, maybe not the most mature ones but they're still fully grown adults. I'm 19 and I know what I'm doing, I would hate people to belittle what I do because I'm 'just a child'.
> I'm not saying what happened was right, but I think Brown probably was being threatening. However I do think there's still a race issue in the US that needs to be sorted out. They also really need to sort out their gun laws. If the gun laws were stricter then less police men would have to be armed.



there is a race issue, there needs to be a conversation, but as i said, ppl are using this case as an all or nothing deal.

u wud think that more guns = more gun crime, but thats not true. 

new york and washington dc have some of the strictest gun laws in the country, yet gun crime is rife. the city of kennesaw in georgia has had a law in place since 1982 mandating that all house are required to have a gun and enough ammunition. there was only one murder in that town between 1982 and 2009.

if u really want to bring guns into this, i would look into the issue a bit more.


----------



## Milky-Chii

KarlaKGB said:


> They could stop making this an all or nothing case about Wilson. They would rather see an innocent man crucified because that's the only form of justice they can comprehend. It makes the entire civil rights movement look like a witch hunting farce
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> 
> 
> The eye witness account is corroborated by audio recordings.
> Do you know if Wilson had access to taser?



He's not innocent, he murdered someone. The only justice people want to see is where a murderer receives a just and fair punishment for taking the life of an unarmed 18 year old. He didn't just not get punished, he was rewarded with paid leave and a donation fund of half a million dollars. If your child was shot in the streets and their killer not only got to walk away scot-free, but he was also _paid_ to do it, how would you feel? I mean a cop just got fired last week for shooting a dog which is more than what Wilson got for killing a black teen. What do you think that says about the value of black lives in America? The movement isn't just about Michael Brown though, it's about all the blacks who were shot in the streets by officers just because of racial profiling. That's why this is such a big issue. People are tired of seeing stories where black kids get shot for playing in the park with a toy gun within seconds of being within site. It's an ongoing issue and if you haven't realized it by now, you haven't been paying attention. Anyway I'm aware of all that and apparently he wasn't carrying a taser because "they're not all that comfortable" What kind of police officer doesn't carry a taser? In any case he used the gun to shoot 12 times hitting Brown 6 times including twice in the head which breaks the protocol for self-defense.


----------



## nammie

well now it turns out apparently the "doctor" who performed the autopsy lied about his medical degree and isn't even a professor the ****
http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/26/health/ferguson-michael-brown-pathologist-credentials/index.html

and the ppl saying mike brown was "threatening" bc he's a big guy
lmao it's not like darren wilson is tiny??? he's 6'4", and had a loaded gun like I don't even......


----------



## KarlaKGB

Milky-Chii said:


> He's not innocent, he murdered someone. The only justice people want to see is where a murderer receives a just and fair punishment for taking the life of an unarmed 18 year old. He didn't just not get punished, he was rewarded with paid leave and a donation fund of half a million dollars. If your child was shot in the streets and their killer not only got to walk away scot-free, but he was also _paid_ to do it, how would you feel? I mean a cop just got fired last week for shooting a dog which is more than what Wilson got for killing a black teen. What do you think that says about the value of black lives in America? The movement isn't just about Michael Brown though, it's about all the blacks who were shot in the streets by officers just because of racial profiling. That's why this is such a big issue. People are tired of seeing stories where black kids get shot for playing in the park with a toy gun within seconds of being within site. It's an ongoing issue and if you haven't realized it by now, you haven't been paying attention. Anyway I'm aware of all that and apparently he wasn't carrying a taser because "they're not all that comfortable" What kind of police officer doesn't carry a taser? In any case he used the gun to shoot 12 times hitting Brown 6 times including twice in the head which breaks the protocol for self-defense.



no, he killed someone. theres a difference between killing someone and murdering them. u can spin the line that he was an 18 year old all u want, it doesnt make a difference. im aware that its an ongoing issue, but i will iterate again, you are making this an all or nothing case around wilson.

i would not be comfortable using taser in a situation where i have just been in a physical altercation with the suspect (demonstrates the suspect is willing to use force), and where a big guy is charging at me, with assumed intent to do serious harm. tasers are not reliable, and if u were to deploy one in this situation, u would need backup of at least another officer to cover with a firearm should the taser fail to affect.

y is nobody asking y brown had to charge at the officer? like ive said before, its these social justice warriors who sit behind their keyboards as if theyre experts in force on force bleating about how a firearm is never a justified response to an unarmed assailant. it's bull.

***
wat a surprise, brown's family hired a sham doctor to conduct the "independent" autopsy


----------



## CookingOkasan

I'm sure you believe that the officer that gun downed Tamir Rice, seconds after their arrival on the scene, used appropriate force as well.


----------



## KarlaKGB

o and what a surprise, ur bring up the number of times he was shot as if to claim that it was excessive use of force. i can present multiple case studies that show it will often take multiple shots to incapacitate a person. ppl have taken shotgun blasts to the head and continued to be combat effective.

- - - Post Merge - - -



CookingOkasan said:


> I'm sure you believe that the officer that gun downed Tamir Rice, seconds after their arrival on the scene, used appropriate force as well.



dont put words into my mouth or make assumptions. im not familiar with the case so u can drop that sarcastic tone


----------



## Milky-Chii

KarlaKGB said:


> no, he killed someone. theres a difference between killing someone and murdering them. u can spin the line that he was an 18 year old all u want, it doesnt make a difference. im aware that its an ongoing issue, but i will iterate again, you are making this an all or nothing case around wilson.
> 
> i would not be comfortable using taser in a situation where i have just been in a physical altercation with the suspect (demonstrates the suspect is willing to use force), and where a big guy is charging at me, with assumed intent to do serious harm. tasers are not reliable, and if u were to deploy one in this situation, u would need backup of at least another officer to cover with a firearm should the taser fail to affect.
> 
> y is nobody asking y brown had to charge at the officer? like ive said before, its these social justice warriors who sit behind their keyboards as if theyre experts in force on force bleating about how a firearm is never a justified response to an unarmed assailant. it's bull.
> 
> ***
> wat a surprise, brown's family hired a sham doctor to conduct the "independent" autopsy



You are correct there is a difference and what he did was indeed murder. I will define it for you:
mur?der
noun \ˈmər-dər\
: the crime of deliberately killing a person

Which is precisely what Wilson did. It's not an all or nothing case about Wilson. He committed a crime, they want justice and that's all there is to it. Again with the "big guy" thing he was the same height as Wilson. With that being true, he still should not have shot as many times as he did. Also you're saying that he charged at him as if you're positive that that's what actually happened. Who gets shot four times then runs towards your attacker? I don't believe that a firearm is never a justified response to an assailant at all, my point is just that he didn't only shoot to deter Brown from "attacking" him (if he even did) He used it to an excessive level that should in no way be excused.

- - - Post Merge - - -



KarlaKGB said:


> o and what a surprise, ur bring up the number of times he was shot as if to claim that it was excessive use of force. i can present multiple case studies that show it will often take multiple shots to incapacitate a person. ppl have taken shotgun blasts to the head and continued to be combat effective.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> 
> 
> dont put words into my mouth or make assumptions. im not familiar with the case so u can drop that sarcastic tone



Oh also in response to this, why would he have to shoot to kill? That shouldn't have been his intention. And more than one shot to the head in a case were you absolutely have to kill (which I don't believe it was) breaks the standard protocol.


----------



## CookingOkasan

KarlaKGB said:


> o and what a surprise, ur bring up the number of times he was shot as if to claim that it was excessive use of force. i can present multiple case studies that show it will often take multiple shots to incapacitate a person. ppl have taken shotgun blasts to the head and continued to be combat effective.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> 
> 
> dont put words into my mouth or make assumptions. im not familiar with the case so u can drop that sarcastic tone



Watch the video on that case (although this is much larger than case by case issues) I'm honestly interested to see your reaction to it.


----------



## KarlaKGB

Milky-Chii said:


> You are correct there is a difference and what he did was indeed murder. I will define it for you:
> mur?der
> noun \ˈmər-dər\
> : the crime of deliberately killing a person
> 
> Which is precisely what Wilson did. It's not an all or nothing case about Wilson. He committed a crime, they want justice and that's all there is to it. Again with the "big guy" thing he was the same height as Wilson. With that being true, he still should not have shot as many times as he did. Also you're saying that he charged at him as if you're positive that that's what actually happened. Who gets shot four times then runs towards your attacker? I don't believe that a firearm is never a justified response to an assailant at all, my point is just that he didn't only shoot to deter Brown from "attacking" him (if he even did) He used it to an excessive level that should in no way be excused.



the grand jury refused to indict him, the same grand jury that heard all of the evidence. r u really saying that u know better than them? have u made ur mind up so resolutely that the only appropriate form of justice is to see wilson sent down for murder?

im saying he charged at him because thats what witness testimony and audio recordings support. there was only one shot fired prior to brown charging, and its unclear if that shot even connected. what is an excessive level of shooting? eyewitness accounts state that wilson ceased fire as soon as brown stopped his charge and collapsed. excessive would be to continue putting rounds into him. if someone is charging at u, they are a threat, it's simple as that.

- - - Post Merge - - -



CookingOkasan said:


> Watch the video on that case (although this is much larger than case by case issues) I'm honestly interested to see your reaction to it.



from the video alone, i would say a failing of the police was the way they entered the scene. they placed themselves too close to the threat with little time to assess and react. that placed in extreme danger, and allowed very little time for them to verbally dominate the suspect. however, it looks like rice moved his hands towards his waistband in a motion that i would recognise as drawing a gun


----------



## Milky-Chii

KarlaKGB said:


> the grand jury refused to indict him, the same grand jury that heard all of the evidence. r u really saying that u know better than them? have u made ur mind up so resolutely that the only appropriate form of justice is to see wilson sent down for murder?
> 
> im saying he charged at him because thats what witness testimony and audio recordings support. there was only one shot fired prior to brown charging, and its unclear if that shot even connected. what is an excessive level of shooting? eyewitness accounts state that wilson ceased fire as soon as brown stopped his charge and collapsed. excessive would be to continue putting rounds into him. if someone is charging at u, they are a threat, it's simple as that.



I'm saying I know when a story doesn't add up when I see one. Wilson's story changed from when the initial interviews happened to the hearing. During the police interviews he told police he was struck in the face ten times but during the grand jury hearing he claims it was twice. The police working with Wilson have lied on several occassions first they claimed he was 35 feet away from Wilson's SUV when it was actually 148. They falsely accuse protesters of firing guns to explain why they attacked them with tear gas. They've beat someone for a crime they didn't commit and charged them for "destruction of property" for bleeding on their uniforms. They lied about why they re-released tapes of Brown "stealing" sources: [x] [x][ x] [x] 
Also Michael didn't charge Wilson, medical examinations say otherwise. [x] I haven't made up my mind because I'm stubborn and won't listen to the other side of the argument at all. There's just too much out there that proves to me he's a crooked cop that I logically can't just say "he was doing his job" because I don't believe he was.


----------



## LambdaDelta

KarlaKGB said:


> theres a difference between killing someone and murdering them



there is?

in this case?


----------



## KarlaKGB

LambdaDelta said:


> there is?
> 
> in this case?



maybe if u show me evidence that the killing was premeditated and completely unjustified. oh, and "he was an unarmed 18 year old boy" is not evidence.


----------



## LambdaDelta

KarlaKGB said:


> maybe if u show me evidence that the killing was premeditated and completely unjustified. oh, and "he was an unarmed 18 year old boy" is not evidence.



how is (iirc) Brown being shot point-blank justified?


----------



## Milky-Chii

KarlaKGB said:


> maybe if u show me evidence that the killing was premeditated and completely unjustified. oh, and "he was an unarmed 18 year old boy" is not evidence.



There's such a thing called unpremeditated murder and yes it's still a crime.


----------



## KarlaKGB

LambdaDelta said:


> how is (iirc) Brown being shot point-blank justified?



context please? r u really putting this to me when u cant even be confident that ur recalling the "facts" correctly?

there r many justified reasons for shooting someone at point blank, it doesnt have to be an execution style shooting.


----------



## LambdaDelta

KarlaKGB said:


> context please? r u really putting this to me when u cant even be confident that ur recalling the "facts" correctly?
> 
> there r many justified reasons for shooting someone at point blank, it doesnt have to be an execution style shooting.



It's hard to tell or even remember what's fact and what isn't when the "facts" have been changing constantly for this case. Can you honestly blame me for not being entirely confident?


But even ignoring that, I would like to hear your justification. Because trying hard as I am, I'm coming up with a complete blank.


----------



## KarlaKGB

LambdaDelta said:


> It's hard to tell or even remember what's fact and what isn't when the "facts" have been changing constantly for this case. Can you honestly blame me for not being entirely confident?
> 
> 
> But even ignoring that, I would like to hear your justification. Because trying hard as I am, I'm coming up with a complete blank.



someone is trying to take control of an officer's gun, officer is completely justified in shooting him.
someone is wrestling with the officer on the ground, officer is justified in shooting him

in this case, the officer's account is that brown punched him while he was in his car and tried to take control of his weapon. witnesses could corroborate the first part but not the second. if u want to automatically assume that wilson was lying, it still begs the question why was brown attacking him in the first place?


----------



## nammie

KarlaKGB said:


> someone is trying to take control of an officer's gun, officer is completely justified in shooting him.
> someone is wrestling with the officer on the ground, officer is justified in shooting him
> 
> in this case, the officer's account is that brown punched him while he was in his car and tried to take control of his weapon. witnesses could corroborate the first part but not the second. if u want to automatically assume that wilson was lying, it still begs the question why was brown attacking him in the first place?



ah yes he "punched him in the face" yet was shot almost 150 ft away from the car??

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/...killed-148-feet-away-from-Darren-Wilson-s-SUV

and wow his "injuries" are so life threatening
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/11/25/237E577800000578-0-image-16_1416934787987.jpg
http://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/ferguson-evidence-22.jpg?w=1100

and the grand jury issue, the grand jury not indicting is extremely rare, around 0.008% fail to indict http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/ferguson-michael-brown-indictment-darren-wilson/
not only that but the fact that a case involving racism has 9 white jurors and 3 black ones (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/answers-questions-ferguson-grand-jury-27144761), when hey the majority needed to indict is exactly 9/12 is extremely sketchy??

+ the fact that even ppl who kill ppl in car accidents get charged with manslaughter and this pos didn't???


----------



## Milky-Chii

KarlaKGB said:


> someone is trying to take control of an officer's gun, officer is completely justified in shooting him.
> someone is wrestling with the officer on the ground, officer is justified in shooting him
> 
> in this case, the officer's account is that brown punched him while he was in his car and tried to take control of his weapon. witnesses could corroborate the first part but not the second. if u want to automatically assume that wilson was lying, it still begs the question why was brown attacking him in the first place?



I don't believe he was trying to attack him. The autopsy report shows no sign of struggle [x] He did not reach for his weapon either [x] Also eyewitness accounts if you even want to take the time to listen. [x] You're saying these things as if you know for certain they are true when there is evidence that proves otherwise. I've given you many sources and yet you're saying the same things which causes me to believe you don't even want to take the time to educate yourself and you have already chosen that Wilson should not be punished for what he did and no logic, reasoning, or proof can lead you to believe otherwise which is such a shame.


----------



## KarlaKGB

nammie said:


> ah yes he "punched him in the face" yet was shot almost 150 ft away from the car??
> 
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/...killed-148-feet-away-from-Darren-Wilson-s-SUV



he fired once when he was in the car. brown fled, and wilson after in pursuit.
i post again the testimony of a witness



			
				Witness 10 said:
			
		

> Roughly I wanna say 8:40, I mean not 8:40, 11:40-11:40 is when that-when I first seen these two guys. And, my initial thought was, "wow, that's a big dude." Because Mr. Brown, Mike Brown, my initial thought was he's a big guy. He's tall and like stocky build and that's it. He-he, they both walked passed me. I took my tools, went into I came back outside to get some more stuff and I looked down the street and I seen the police car at a slant and I seen Mr. Brown in the window of the police car looked ...it appeared as they were wrestling through the window and one gunshot had let off. And, Mr. Brown took off running and my first thought was like "oh my gosh" did I actually just witness a police officer being murdered because it took a while for the police officer to get out of the car and pursue the-the suspect. And, I wanna say maybe six seconds, but it seemed like it was forever after the-the-the first gunshot. So, the police officer exited the vehicle with his weapon drawn pursuing Mr. Brown. Mr. Brown was quite a distance and he stopped and when he stopped, he didn't get down on the ground or anything. He turned around and he did some type of movement. I never seen him put his hands up or anything. I can't recall the movement that he did. I'm not sure if he pulled his pants up or-or whatever he did but I seen some type of movement and he started charging towards the police officer. The police officer then returned fire, well, not returned fire, open fire on Mr. Brown. Um, if I had to guess the shots and the-the distance between him and, a, Mr. Brown, it would have to be five to ten yards and the shots that were fired was four, five to six shots fired and Mr.
> Brown was still standing up. Um, and my thoughts was while he's missing this guy this close, is he-is he hitting him or because Mr. Brown there was no reaction from him to show that he was been hit. Um, after that, Mr. Brown then paused. He-he-he stopped running and when he stopped running the police officer stopped firing. And, then Mr. Brown continued, started again to charge towards him and after that the police officer returned fire and um well not returned, I'm using wrong ...a started to fire once more at him. Um, if I had to guess the rounds that were fired then it would be four to five more shots and after that Mr. Brown collapsed and fell to the ground.



source: http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1370768-interview-witness-10.html

- - - Post Merge - - -



Milky-Chii said:


> I don't believe he was trying to attack him. The autopsy report shows no sign of struggle [x] He did not reach for his weapon either [x] Also eyewitness accounts if you even want to take the time to listen. [x] You're saying these things as if you know for certain they are true when there is evidence that proves otherwise. I've given you many sources and yet you're saying the same things which causes me to believe you don't even want to take the time to educate yourself and you have already chosen that Wilson should not be punished for what he did and no logic, reasoning, or proof can lead you to believe otherwise which is such a shame.



i have read through the testimony and evidence presented to the court here: http://apps.stlpublicradio.org/ferguson-project/evidence.html

have u done the same? or r u just gonna cherrypick news articles and ignore the proceedings of the court?


----------



## nammie

and I posted a video earlier disputing that EXACT witness???????





he was the only witness that corroborated wilson's story, and gave 2-3 diff stories until he finally gave one that "fit" the story???


----------



## Milky-Chii

KarlaKGB said:


> he fired once when he was in the car. brown fled, and wilson after in pursuit.
> i post again the testimony of a witness
> 
> 
> source: http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1370768-interview-witness-10.html
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> 
> 
> i have read through the testimony and evidence presented to the court here: http://apps.stlpublicradio.org/ferguson-project/evidence.html
> 
> have u done the same? or r u just gonna cherrypick news articles and ignore the proceedings of the court?



Yes I have done the same. I'm not just taking the evidence provided in the court hearing, but the entire case itself throughout the last 4 months. The hearing provided a very small filtered version of the evidence provided by a biased prosecutor. He was tied to Wilson from the beginning, even raised funds for him. His father was an officer who killed on duty as well. He certainly was not neutral in this case and only quoted one eyewitness on live television that suited his own outcome. Nowhere does the transcript mention Wilson's lies, the police department's attempts to cover up the issue, or the photos of Brown's body at the crime scene. Why? Because conveniently the on site medical examiner's "batteries were out" And where were these cigarettes that he apparently stole? They would have still been on his person and be an important bit of evidence since so many want to justify his murder because he was a "thief" and yet there is nothing. There's more to this case than what has happened over the last week, there have been lies circulating since the beginning.


----------



## KarlaKGB

if ur position is trial by media, then i have nothing more to add to this.


----------



## nammie

KarlaKGB said:


> if ur position is trial by media, then i have nothing more to add to this.



ok fine. idgaf what you believe but tell me this. do you think he should've been indicted at least? or no, do you think he was completely justified in shooting and murdering this kid.


----------



## Milky-Chii

KarlaKGB said:


> if ur position is trial by media, then i have nothing more to add to this.



My position is a _fair_ trial through uncorrupted government. It's a shame you choose to ignore all the evidence and just stick to being spoonfed by what mainstream media and a single hearing by a biased prosecuting attorney is telling you to believe. But that's your choice I suppose.


----------



## LambdaDelta

Milky-Chii said:


> Yes I have done the same. I'm not just taking the evidence provided in the court hearing, but the entire case itself throughout the last 4 months. The hearing provided a very small filtered version of the evidence provided by a biased prosecutor. He was tied to Wilson from the beginning, even raised funds for him. His father was an officer who killed on duty as well. He certainly was not neutral in this case and only quoted one eyewitness on live television that suited his own outcome. Nowhere does the transcript mention Wilson's lies, the police department's attempts to cover up the issue, or the photos of Brown's body at the crime scene. Why? Because conveniently the on site medical examiner's "batteries were out" And where were these cigarettes that he apparently stole? They would have still been on his person and be an important bit of evidence since so many want to justify his murder because he was a "thief" and yet there is nothing. There's more to this case than what has happened over the last week, there have been lies circulating since the beginning.



All this and more speaks far more volumes to me than any amount of "evidence" could.

If Wilson was truly justified in his actions, then there would be no reason for the story on the investigator's side to flip-flop and have so many shady areas as it does.


Even though I have my doubts that it would, I'd absolutely love to see this entire situation go to the supreme court. But not just Wilson for his actions; I want to see the entire personal that's been involved in this mess stand trial for their "investigation".


----------



## nammie

LambdaDelta said:


> All this and more speaks far more volumes to me than any amount of "evidence" could.
> 
> If Wilson was truly justified in his actions, then there would be no reason for the story on the investigator's side to flip-flop and have so many shady areas as it does.
> 
> 
> Even though I have my doubts that it would, I'd absolutely love to see this entire situation go to the supreme court. But not just Wilson for his actions; I want to see the entire personal that's been involved in this mess stand trial for their "investigation".



well even the national bar association is calling BS on this sham of a trial so
http://us7.campaign-archive1.com/?u=b493e6c4d31beda32fdaf8e2d&id=73514e334b

hopefully it'll go to supreme court and Mike Brown can get the justice he deserves.


----------



## Lady Timpani

Sir Integra said:


> Not meaning to start a riot or anything, but that kid probably didn't have a future to live for in the first place anyway.



If you're not meaning to offend anyone, why the hell would you say that?


----------



## Isabelle for president!

nammie said:


> and wow his "injuries" are so life threatening
> http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/11/25/237E577800000578-0-image-16_1416934787987.jpg
> http://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/ferguson-evidence-22.jpg?w=1100


Head injuries can be fatal though, so I can't see how it's not life threatening.


----------



## tinytaylor

I was burning up looking through the last thread so I'd rather not read through the spooned opinions some of you have. This kid did have a future and if he weren't shot he would be attending college. Michael may have stole a pack of cigarettes but if you believe that he deserved being shot and killed that's like saying his life amounted to about $5. There was also no need to shoot him in the back 6 times, it's clear to me that the officer was shooting to kill and not so much for self defense. 


I think the whole thing is sickening and tbh I can't stand thinking about this anymore so I'm going to end my rant here.


----------



## Alolan_Apples

Seriously, why is almost everybody on this site liberal biased? People who believe that both Michael Brown is only a kid and Wilson is guilty tend to be left-wing. On Wikipedia, it actually said that Michael Brown and his friend were walking out of the store, but it also said that he was 18 and stole cigarettes. But I don't think Brown is the guilty party. It's the people that both supported him and rioted about it that are the real guilty party. There's no need to riot over this.


----------



## Danielkang2

Guys just as a reminder. Your opinions *will not* matter in this case. So as this may be a interesting topic to discuss don't go too far.


----------



## LambdaDelta

you don't tell me what to do


----------



## Lady Timpani

Danielkang2 said:


> Guys just as a reminder. Your opinions *will not* matter in this case. So as this may be a interesting topic to discuss don't go too far.



Public opinion may not be able to affect this case specifically, but it could affect future policies that help stop cases like this from happening again. Public opinion could also take this case to Missouri's Supreme Court, so, you know. 

Besides, people discuss things they can't change all the time. I don't see how this is any different.


----------



## Jarrad

Sir Integra said:


> Not meaning to start a riot or anything, but that kid probably didn't have a future to live for in the first place anyway.



How have you come to this conclusion?
Have you drawn it because of the colour of his skin? Because of the place where he was raised?

He was going to go to university. He probably had a better life planned ahead of him than you do.
Seriously, stereotyping somebody based on their race is a disgusting thing to do. You should be ashamed of yourself.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Isabelle for president! said:


> Head injuries can be fatal though, so I can't see how it's not life threatening.



The joke is that there weren't any injuries. Brown was shot SIX times, how on earth anybody actually believes that brown got to the cop after being shot six times (may I note that one of those shots hit him in the face, fatally killing him) is stupid.

Tumblr and twitter have been deleting a lot of pictures and posts regarding the ferguson case. Doesn't that tell you something?


----------



## Jeremy

Jarrad said:


> How have you come to this conclusion?
> Have you drawn it because of the colour of his skin? Because of the place where he was raised?
> 
> He was going to go to university. He probably had a better life planned ahead of him than you do.
> Seriously, stereotyping somebody based on their race is a disgusting thing to do. You should be ashamed of yourself.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> 
> 
> The joke is that there weren't any injuries. Brown was shot SIX times, how on earth anybody actually believes that brown got to the cop after being shot six times (may I note that one of those shots hit him in the face, fatally killing him) is stupid.
> 
> Tumblr and twitter have been deleting a lot of pictures and posts regarding the ferguson case. Doesn't that tell you something?



Please discuss the topic more civilly.  For example, don't make up what someone said.  This is known as a straw man argument and is only going to create a hostile discussion.


----------



## Princess

So much misinformation in this thread.....


----------



## nard

I haven't really read up on it, but the riots are outrageous.


----------



## Princess

Jarrad said:


> How have you come to this conclusion?
> Have you drawn it because of the colour of his skin? Because of the place where he was raised?
> 
> He was going to go to university. He probably had a better life planned ahead of him than you do.
> Seriously, stereotyping somebody based on their race is a disgusting thing to do. You should be ashamed of yourself.


Why are you jumping to conclusions and then ridiculing another member for a conclusion you've drawn up with no evidence?

- - - Post Merge - - -



> The joke is that there weren't any injuries. Brown was shot SIX times, how on earth anybody actually believes that brown got to the cop after being shot six times (may I note that one of those shots hit him in the face, fatally killing him) is stupid.


There WERE injuries. Yes Brown was shot six times, but hello they never proved the order of the shots. And the eyewitness did seem him at the window. The entire debate the public is essentially having is, where the entire SIX shots necessary. Stop throwing misinformation into the thread, please. 


> Tumblr and twitter have been deleting a lot of pictures and posts regarding the ferguson case. Doesn't that tell you something?


Do you have any evidence of this?

- - - Post Merge - - -



KarlaKGB said:


> there is a race issue, there needs to be a conversation, but as i said, ppl are using this case as an all or nothing deal.
> 
> u wud think that more guns = more gun crime, but thats not true.
> 
> new york and washington dc have some of the strictest gun laws in the country, yet gun crime is rife. the city of kennesaw in georgia has had a law in place since 1982 mandating that all house are required to have a gun and enough ammunition. there was only one murder in that town between 1982 and 2009.
> 
> if u really want to bring guns into this, i would look into the issue a bit more.



This, 100%
There is a huge disparity of the amount of African-American victims to Caucasian or other POCs.
Don't just start caring because a white officer took a black kid's life. Care that the disparity exists, no matter how these lives are taken.


----------



## BungoTheElf

Apple2012 said:


> Seriously, why is almost everybody on this site liberal biased? People who believe that both Michael Brown is only a kid and Wilson is guilty tend to be left-wing. On Wikipedia, it actually said that Michael Brown and his friend were walking out of the store, but it also said that he was 18 and stole cigarettes. But I don't think Brown is the guilty party. It's the people that both supported him and rioted about it that are the real guilty party. There's no need to riot over this.



Because this is a race issue. And anyways with social media we have more information than bias one-sided information from main stream media. He was 18 and did not steal cigarettes (x) Does it matter if he did anyways?? Is $6 really worth killing over?? and is it bad to be upset about this and voice it omg. Most protesters aren't even doing anything violent at all um [using riot definition; an uproar; a public expression of protest or outrage] (x)  (x) (x)


----------



## Aradai

M O L K O said:


> Do I really gotta clean up another thread?
> 
> After reading the first page looks like I do


I love you.
Thanks for this information too. Its really helpful.


----------



## Jarrad

Princess said:


> Why are you jumping to conclusions and then ridiculing another member for a conclusion you've drawn up with no evidence?
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> 
> There WERE injuries. Yes Brown was shot six times, but hello they never proved the order of the shots. And the eyewitness did seem him at the window. The entire debate the public is essentially having is, where the entire SIX shots necessary. Stop throwing misinformation into the thread, please.
> 
> Do you have any evidence of this?


Hello? Did you seriously just ask me WHY I responded to him in that manor? Are you totally oblivious to what he said?

Hundreds of people have been complaining that their content regarding the ferguson case has been deleted.

I've read about the Ferguson case from several different sources, with some saying that brown was stopped by Wilson and fled immediately, prompting him to fire 12 times, whilst others say that Wilson detained Brown and his friend in his car, from which they both fled through the windows of the car, and in the process Wilson was harmed (and by harmed I mean that tiny pimple-looking injury on his chin/cheek). I admit, that I, and pretty much everybody else, have no 100% idea of what took place. 

Don't tell me what to do, please.


----------



## oath2order

KarlaKGB said:


> there is a race issue, there needs to be a conversation, but as i said, ppl are using this case as an all or nothing deal.
> 
> u wud think that more guns = more gun crime, but thats not true.
> 
> new york and washington dc have some of the strictest gun laws in the country, yet gun crime is rife. the city of kennesaw in georgia has had a law in place since 1982 mandating that all house are required to have a gun and enough ammunition. there was only one murder in that town between 1982 and 2009.
> 
> if u really want to bring guns into this, i would look into the issue a bit more.



Population of New York, 2013: 8.5 million
Population of DC, 2013: 646,449
Population of Kennesaw, GA, 2013: 32,0001

Yeah they have a law but there's far fewer people there to break it.

But this isn't about guns, you're right, this is more of a race thing.


----------



## Jarrad

lynn105 said:


> Because this is a race issue. And anyways with social media we have more information than bias one-sided information from main stream media. He was 18 and did not steal cigarettes (x) Does it matter if he did anyways?? Is $6 really worth killing over?? and is it bad to be upset about this and voice it omg. Most protesters aren't even doing anything violent at all um [using riot definition; an uproar; a public expression of protest or outrage] (x)  (x) (x)



I don't think the issue is over weather Brown's crime was punishable by death, but rather should Wilson have used deadly force, which is _supposed_ to be used as a last resort when everything else fails. Wilson should have used a taser, but he admits that he doesn't carry one around because there is only one in his entire police department, and that it sits uncomfortably on his waist.

and obviously racial profiling


----------



## Alolan_Apples

lynn105 said:


> Because this is a race issue. And anyways with social media we have more information than bias one-sided information from main stream media. He was 18 and did not steal cigarettes (x) Does it matter if he did anyways?? Is $6 really worth killing over?? and is it bad to be upset about this and voice it omg. Most protesters aren't even doing anything violent at all um [using riot definition; an uproar; a public expression of protest or outrage] (x)  (x) (x)



It's not the $6 worth that it's about. What Michael Brown did wrong was that he grabbed for the officer's gun. That's what got him killed.


----------



## radical6

Apple2012 said:


> Seriously, why is almost everybody on this site liberal biased? People who believe that both Michael Brown is only a kid and Wilson is guilty tend to be left-wing. On Wikipedia, it actually said that Michael Brown and his friend were walking out of the store, but it also said that he was 18 and stole cigarettes. But I don't think Brown is the guilty party. It's the people that both supported him and rioted about it that are the real guilty party. There's no need to riot over this.



Wikipedia
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
lol
he PAID for those. THERES FILM EVIDENCE HE DID. THE STORE OWNER EVEN CONFIRMED IT. LMAO. and idk i know quite a lot of conservatives, but I'm not a fan of liberals either so idc. 

Wilson had no reason to attack Brown. He had no knowledge of Brown at that moment. Even if Brown did steal, Wilson wouldn't have known Brown stole the cigarettes. I don't trust some of the testimonies either by witnesses because some of them keep changing the story. Or some of them are literal racists who would say blah blah black people are useless n word. Yeah. 

Yes, Tumblr has deleted posts. Images of KKK Dox were removed, which is odd considering tumblr could give less ****s about anyone else being doxed. There was also evidence of the owner of tumblr (yahoo ceo) being connected with the KKK and the boards on the yahoo w/e sympathize with the KKK. Those posts were deleted as well. YouTube has been censoring videoes of the incident that shows the truth too.

This whole movement runs on social media. Everything was photographed and posted to Twitter for the whole world to make a judgement. Saying to stop talking about it online is ignorant. The news media won't talk about this. They're covering stuff up. They won't show the peaceful protesters, or the GANGS that are PROTECTING SHOPS. For tumblr, Twitter and YouTube to censor it is a huge problem.


----------



## Aradai

Brown was stopped for JAYWALKING, by the way. Wilson had no idea about the 'robbery'. [x]


----------



## oath2order

Apple2012 said:


> Seriously, why is almost everybody on this site liberal biased? People who believe that both Michael Brown is only a kid and Wilson is guilty tend to be left-wing. On Wikipedia, it actually said that Michael Brown and his friend were walking out of the store, but it also said that he was 18 and stole cigarettes. But I don't think Brown is the guilty party. It's the people that both supported him and rioted about it that are the real guilty party. There's no need to riot over this.



We have a massive conservative presence here. They all came crawling out of the darkness around elections.


----------



## Alolan_Apples

How is it possible to be Republican, but believe that Wilson is guilty?


----------



## radical6

Apple2012 said:


> How is it possible to be Republican, but believe that Wilson is guilty?



I'm not a republican lol


----------



## oath2order

Apple2012 said:


> How is it possible to be Republican, but believe that Wilson is guilty?



You don't have to particularly subscribe to every single thing a political party follows. Maybe people are socially Democrat but fiscally Republican.


----------



## Alolan_Apples

oath2order said:


> You don't have to particularly subscribe to every single thing a political party follows. Maybe people are socially Democrat but fiscally Republican.



Thanks for letting me know. I just generally believed that people who believed Wilson was guilty are liberal, but I don't think the whole Ferguson thing is the top issue for either party.


----------



## Jarrad

Aradai said:


> Brown was stopped for JAYWALKING, by the way. Wilson had no idea about the 'robbery'. [x]



There had allegedly been a 911 call reporting a robbery, made by a customer of the shop, not the owners/staff.
And I'm guessing (I'm not a cop so I don't know how these calls are handled) that Wilson was informed of the robbery.


----------



## CookingOkasan

I'm not going to adhere to a sham of a 2 system party. Neither of which have any intention of representing the people.
I don't care what political party you or your parents (since this board is filled with so many children) claim, it's irrelevant.
I just hope that you can look at examples such as Tamir Rice, Trayvon Martin, and Michael Brown (and the ever increasing list of names who were wrongfully killed at the hands of white men) and recognize the blatant inequality and oppression present against the black community by the hands of the white social construct.


----------



## Alolan_Apples

CookingOkasan said:


> I'm not going to adhere to a sham of a 2 system party. Neither of which have any intention of representing the people.
> I don't care what political party you or your parents (since this board is filled with so many children) claim, it's irrelevant.
> I just hope that you can look at examples such as Tamir Rice, Trayvon Martin, and Michael Brown (and the ever increasing list of names who were wrongfully killed at the hands of white men) and recognize the blatant inequality and oppression present against the black community by the hands of the white social construct.



The reason why I assume that opponents to the verdict are liberal is because the liberals take race a big deal. They're even abusing the term "racist".


----------



## Celestefey

Princess said:


> So much misinformation in this thread.....



Agreed. :\ From both sides of the argument, too.

My thoughts are this:

Regardless on whether or not Michael Brown stole the cigarettes, there was no need for him to be shot over something so petty. There are white people who do worse things and don't get shot: just go onto a news website and see for yourself. The incident is horrific and Officer Wilson is definitely 100% guilty. It's appalling. There is and WAS no need to shoot. There is never a need to shoot unless it is 100% necessary.

This is kinda why I'm grateful I live in England sometimes. Stricter gun laws over here so you don't get so many people who are so trigger happy. Although I'm not saying that racism isn't a problem over here, either...


----------



## radical6

Apple2012 said:


> The reason why I assume that opponents to the verdict are liberal is because the liberals take race a big deal. They're even abusing the term "racist".


sorry that racism is still alive today and black people are getting shot/jailed for being themselves


----------



## Aryxia

Benjamin Watson basically summed up my thoughts.


----------



## Amissapanda

justice said:


> sorry that racism is still alive today and black people are getting shot/jailed for being themselves



This. This is a serious problem. And there are way too many police pardons for shooting/beating black people, even unarmed children as young as 12.

As for the topic, I wholly find Wilson guilty and strongly believe the grand jury made the wrong decision. I've been following this whole thing for months. The prosecution did not even _try_ to indict Wilson. Out of ten witnesses, they chose the key witness as the _only one that agreed with Wilson's view on the events_. (From here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVzcrSzirrs)

I could get into a lot more details, but I don't want to have a big debate. I'm just stating my opinion on this matter.


----------



## LambdaDelta

Apple2012 said:


> The reason why I assume that opponents to the verdict are liberal is because the liberals take race a big deal. They're even abusing the term "racist".



when racism stops being a notable thing, then the term will also stop being (ab)used


also, lol @ forcing politics into this

way to undermine a serious issue, while also in a way just painting one side as anti-racist and another at best as apathetic


----------



## MishMeesh

Jarrad said:


> There had allegedly been a 911 call reporting a robbery, made by a customer of the shop, not the owners/staff.
> And I'm guessing (I'm not a cop so I don't know how these calls are handled) that Wilson was informed of the robbery.



It seems he did not. "Chief Jackson said. Wilson was unaware the pair were wanted in connection with the robbery; another officer was investigating the robbery at the time." (x) Although both the police department and Wilson conveniently changed their story afterward.


----------



## M O L K O

Apple2012 said:


> It's not the $6 worth that it's about. What Michael Brown did wrong was that he grabbed for the officer's gun. That's what got him killed.



Please read the information posted and he did not grab his gun so that point is mute.


----------



## CookingOkasan

Apple2012 said:


> The reason why I assume that opponents to the verdict are liberal is because the liberals take race a big deal. They're even abusing the term "racist".



The KKK and police slaughtering black people and it's 2014. White people are saying they "don't see race". White people "aren't racist" because they "know a couple of the nicest black people". White people say "violence isn't the answer" after they've slaughtered native americans, blacks, hispanics, and so many other PoC throughout history.

An entire race of people's livelihood and basic human rights have been dismissed since before the foundation of our country and they are angry and they are vocal and they are pleading for justice. If are able to look at that and say "race isn't important, stop pulling the race card" then you can be damn sure never to speak to me on this forum again.

I've seen so much white racist trash on social media recently and it's physically painful to see.

Black lives matter. Black people matter. Black children matter. Black women matter. Black men matter.


----------



## oath2order

CookingOkasan said:


> The KKK are slaughtering black people and it's 2014. White people are saying they "don't see race". White people "aren't racist" because they "know a couple of the nicest black people". White people say "violence isn't the answer" after they've slaughtered native americans, blacks, hispanics, and so many other PoC throughout history.
> 
> An entire race of people's livelihood and basic human rights have been dismissed since before the foundation of our country and they are angry and they are vocal and they are pleading for justice. If are able to look at that and say "race isn't important, stop pulling the race card" then you can be damn sure never to speak to me on this forum again.
> 
> I've seen so much white racist trash on social media recently and it's physically painful to see.
> 
> Black lives matter. Black people matter. Black children matter. Black women matter. Black men matter.



And here we can see an example of the "white people are evil" trope.


----------



## M O L K O

KarlaKGB said:


> if ur position is trial by media, then i have nothing more to add to this.



If you fail to realize that this case was cherry picked by people to make D*rren look good, I have nothing more to say to you.

- - - Post Merge - - -



oath2order said:


> And here we can see an example of the "white people are evil" trope.



and here we can see someone totally missing the point and trying to make it about them and their race
please stay on topic and stop making it about white people kthankbye


----------



## LambdaDelta

CookingOkasan said:


> White people say "violence isn't the answer" after they've slaughtered native americans



what a great celebration of that yesterday

blessed be the natives that taught us how to survive, only to lose their own right to survival


----------



## oath2order

M O L K O said:


> If you fail to realize that this case was cherry picked by people to make D*rren look good, I have nothing more to say to you.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> 
> 
> and here we can see someone totally missing the point and trying to make it about them and their race
> please stay on topic and stop making it about white people kthankbye



Sorry but Okasan was the one who brought up white people. I'm responding to him.


----------



## Alolan_Apples

LambdaDelta said:


> when racism stops being a notable thing, then the term will also stop being (ab)used
> 
> 
> also, lol @ forcing politics into this
> 
> way to undermine a serious issue, while also in a way just painting one side as anti-racist and another at best as apathetic



Why do you always have to be annoying?



CookingOkasan said:


> The KKK and police slaughtering black people and it's 2014. White people are saying they "don't see race". White people "aren't racist" because they "know a couple of the nicest black people". White people say "violence isn't the answer" after they've slaughtered native americans, blacks, hispanics, and so many other PoC throughout history.
> 
> An entire race of people's livelihood and basic human rights have been dismissed since before the foundation of our country and they are angry and they are vocal and they are pleading for justice. If are able to look at that and say "race isn't important, stop pulling the race card" then you can be damn sure never to speak to me on this forum again.
> 
> I've seen so much white racist trash on social media recently and it's physically painful to see.
> 
> Black lives matter. Black people matter. Black children matter. Black women matter. Black men matter.



Actually, no race is innocent in history.


----------



## M O L K O

oath2order said:


> Sorry but Okasan was the one who brought up white people. I'm responding to him.



and I responded to your ignorance but that's fine, just please stay on topic, I really don't want this thread to be closed cuz people want to make it about 'whaT abOUT uS WHiTE Folk!??!'


----------



## LambdaDelta

Apple2012 said:


> Why do you always have to be annoying?



because <3



Apple2012 said:


> Actually, no race is innocent in history.



this doesn't excuse the downright disgusting racial profiling that is still continuing to this day, despite having no reason to

its like we've learned absolutely nothing from history


----------



## Alolan_Apples

M O L K O said:


> and I responded to your ignorance but that's fine, just please stay on topic, I really don't want this thread to be closed cuz people want to make it about 'whaT abOUT uS WHiTE Folk!??!'



I still think that there's no reason to riot. Michael Brown's father didn't even want to see people riot.

I wish stuff like this doesn't get taken to the national news.


----------



## Jarrad

MishMeesh said:


> It seems he did not. "Chief Jackson said. Wilson was unaware the pair were wanted in connection with the robbery; another officer was investigating the robbery at the time." (x) Although both the police department and Wilson conveniently changed their story afterward.



This is from wikipedia, so it's probably not a very reliable source of info, but nevertheless
"A police dispatcher reported a "stealing in progress" at 11:53, and at 11:57 dispatch said the suspect was wearing a red Cardinals hat, a white T-shirt, yellow socks, and khaki shorts, and was accompanied by another man. At noon, Wilson radioed to ask other officers searching for the suspects if they needed him and was told by dispatch that they had disappeared"


----------



## oath2order

M O L K O said:


> and I responded to your ignorance but that's fine, just please stay on topic, I really don't want this thread to be closed cuz people want to make it about 'whaT abOUT uS WHiTE Folk!??!'



Commentary is not the same as making it about white people.

Also how do you even know if Im white oe not


----------



## Jarrad

Apple2012 said:


> I still think that there's no reason to riot. Michael Brown's father didn't even want to see people riot.
> 
> I wish stuff like this doesn't get taken to the national news.



It's ironic how several other countries have major riots around the time Mockingjay is released

- - - Post Merge - - -

I just realised how little relevance my comment had to yours...


----------



## KarlaKGB

zimmerman was hispanic, there goes the narrative that white ppl love going around slaying blacks


----------



## CookingOkasan

M O L K O said:


> and I responded to your ignorance but that's fine, just please stay on topic, I really don't want this thread to be closed cuz people want to make it about 'whaT abOUT uS WHiTE Folk!??!'



This is exactly the reason I'm not going to touch that any further. If necessary, feel free to reach me in my inbox though Oath.


----------



## M O L K O

Apple2012 said:


> I still think that there's no reason to riot. Michael Brown's father didn't even want to see people riot.
> 
> I wish stuff like this doesn't get taken to the national news.


I want the protests to take over the news, but ok. And I only agree on the looting being bad. 


oath2order said:


> Commentary is not the same as making it about white people.
> 
> Also how do you even know if Im white oe not



Commentary to the point where you try to make it about white people and teeter away from the real issue is making it about white people. And idc if ur white or not, I'm a white passing latina big whooping ****. Just because your not white doesn't mean you can make it about white people wtf.

Anyway if you want to talk about whites then message me if you* have to*. I'm now ignoring this whole 'white ppl are G00D 2222!!?!' when this is NOT what this is about.


----------



## KarlaKGB

i also want to know what is the "appropriate" number of shots to be fired by all the armchair analysts here.


----------



## M O L K O

KarlaKGB said:


> zimmerman was hispanic, there goes the narrative that white ppl love going around slaying blacks



He's also been proved to be violent and have been in multiple cases of trouble with the police since trayvons death but ok ))))

- - - Post Merge - - -



KarlaKGB said:


> i also want to know what is the "appropriate" number of shots to be fired by all the armchair analysts here.



0, that would be the number.


----------



## oath2order

So it's basically just "white people suck 2k14" and the white peoplr can't defend.

Okay.


----------



## KarlaKGB

oath2order said:


> So it's basically just "white people suck 2k14" and the white peoplr can't defend.
> 
> Okay.



check ur white privilege


----------



## LambdaDelta

KarlaKGB said:


> i also want to know what is the "appropriate" number of shots to be fired by all the armchair analysts here.



>implying that you sitting here and just posting in Wilson's defense is any better than us sitting here and posting in his guilt


----------



## CookingOkasan

KarlaKGB said:


> check ur white privilege



cut the cheeky **** and stay on topic.

leaving the thread with this:
BODYCAMSONALLCOPS2K15
BLACK LIVES MATTER
DON'T BE A RACIST


----------



## Jarrad

KarlaKGB said:


> check ur white privilege



I think you mean undesirable privilege?


----------



## Isabelle for president!

Jarrad said:


> The joke is that there weren't any injuries. Brown was shot SIX times, how on earth anybody actually believes that brown got to the cop after being shot six times (may I note that one of those shots hit him in the face, fatally killing him) is stupid.
> 
> Tumblr and twitter have been deleting a lot of pictures and posts regarding the ferguson case. Doesn't that tell you something?



Ehh, I was just simply referening to the fact that people actually die from a head injuries, so we can't simply state that his life wasn't in danger. Yes, those were not serious injuries, but they could be. You may tell that's gonna hurt before someone gonna to hit you, but you can't predict that you'll be ok for 100%. If there is any chance of death, it is life threatening.

I've never said I belive in any version of events, so not sure why you assumed I may or may not belive in above version. The only thing that tumblr tells me is that some people don't even know what they reblog, because they don't bother to read it.


----------



## MishMeesh

Jarrad said:


> This is from wikipedia, so it's probably not a very reliable source of info, but nevertheless
> "A police dispatcher reported a "stealing in progress" at 11:53, and at 11:57 dispatch said the suspect was wearing a red Cardinals hat, a white T-shirt, yellow socks, and khaki shorts, and was accompanied by another man. At noon, Wilson radioed to ask other officers searching for the suspects if they needed him and was told by dispatch that they had disappeared"



He may had been aware that there was a robbery, but not that Brown and his friend were involved in it when the altercation started, according to the police chief (said directly by the chief either in the video in the article I linked or another that I can probably find later but I'm in class right now). This is what was said in the hours/days after the incident, yet Wilson later testified to the jury that Brown had the stolen cigarillos in his hand, despite them not being found at the scene. I mean, it's easy to understand the lack of faith put in whatever the police department/Wilson has said when they have so blatantly continued to contradict each other.


----------



## radical6

Rip This Thread


----------



## KarlaKGB

LambdaDelta said:


> >implying that you sitting here and just posting in Wilson's defense is any better than us sitting here and posting in his guilt



no my particular issue is with the ppl who claim that wilson fired an excessive number of shots. they seem to think that one bullet is enough to stop a threat.

read this one case study: http://www.policeone.com/patrol-iss...ne-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/

the assailant was shot 14 times in places that were fatal, but not immediately so. in the meantime, he continued to be an active threat.


----------



## M O L K O

KarlaKGB said:


> no my particular issue is with the ppl who claim that wilson fired an excessive number of shots. they seem to think that one bullet is enough to stop a threat.
> 
> read this one case study: http://www.policeone.com/patrol-iss...ne-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/
> 
> the assailant was shot 14 times in places that were fatal, but not immediately so. in the meantime, he continued to be an active threat.



>implying mike brown was a threat


----------



## KarlaKGB

CookingOkasan said:


> BLACK LIVES MATTER



only if theyre taken by a white person, right??

- - - Post Merge - - -



M O L K O said:


> >implying mike brown was a threat



so ur narrative was that brown was minding his own business when wilson just filled him with lead?


----------



## Jarrad

M O L K O said:


> >implying mike brown was a threat



In the eyes of the law-enforcement in America, everybody's a threat.


----------



## BungoTheElf

Jarrad said:


> I don't think the issue is over weather Brown's crime was punishable by death, but rather should Wilson have used deadly force, which is _supposed_ to be used as a last resort when everything else fails. Wilson should have used a taser, but he admits that he doesn't carry one around because there is only one in his entire police department, and that it sits uncomfortably on his waist.
> 
> and obviously racial profiling



o truuu I don't get why after he got punched he didn't just drive away or something since you're supposed to retreat 0:



Apple2012 said:


> It's not the $6 worth that it's about. What Michael Brown did wrong was that he grabbed for the officer's gun. That's what got him killed.



Why did you even mention the cigs if it doesn't even matter then lol What got him killed is that Wilson shot him when he could of done something else (pretty sure he didn't grab for it? wilson already had it out i think..)


----------



## M O L K O

KarlaKGB said:


> only if theyre taken by a white person, right??



No, not at all! But we're focusing on the deaths that are at the hands of police brutality. They can't help it if they all happen to be white


----------



## LambdaDelta

KarlaKGB said:


> no my particular issue is with the ppl who claim that wilson fired an excessive number of shots. they seem to think that one bullet is enough to stop a threat.
> 
> read this one case study: http://www.policeone.com/patrol-iss...ne-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/
> 
> the assailant was shot 14 times in places that were fatal, but not immediately so. in the meantime, he continued to be an active threat.



To bad the actual threat level Wilson had on all accounts is minimal compared to the article you linked.

Also, just because fatal shots CAN not be instantly as such shouldn't excuse them being used except in desperate situations.


----------



## KarlaKGB

lynn105 said:


> o truuu I don't get why after he got punched he didn't just drive away or something since you're supposed to retreat 0:



no, ur thinking of a civilian self defence encounter where u have a duty to retreat and not to pursue. wilson was a police officer, its  his job to pursue and apprehend the suspect.


----------



## LambdaDelta

KarlaKGB said:


> only if theyre taken by a white person, right??



human lives matter

ALL human lives

happy now?

(even though I'd be more than happy to see certain scum purged from the Earth)


----------



## Jarrad

lynn105 said:


> o truuu I don't get why after he got punched he didn't just drive away or something since you're supposed to retreat :0



Cops do a lot of things which aren't in the books. I.E. arresting a black woman on the basis of her being a "prostitute" because she was seen kissing her white boyfriend/husband.

- - - Post Merge - - -



KarlaKGB said:


> no, ur thinking of a civilian self defence encounter where u have a duty to retreat and not to pursue. wilson was a police officer, its  his job to pursue and apprehend the suspect.



But instead of apprehending someone, he murdered someone.


----------



## M O L K O

KarlaKGB said:


> only if theyre taken by a white person, right??
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> 
> 
> so ur narrative was that brown was minding his own business when wilson just filled him with lead?



My narrative is that D*rren saw him jaywalking and found the perfect opportunity to use his force.
For more information see page 9 and make sure to read the sources.


----------



## LambdaDelta

KarlaKGB said:


> no, ur thinking of a civilian self defence encounter where u have a duty to retreat and not to pursue. wilson was a police officer, its  his job to pursue and apprehend the suspect.



"apprehend"

he sure did that well, didn't he?


----------



## KarlaKGB

LambdaDelta said:


> To bad the actual threat level Wilson had on all accounts is minimal compared to the article you linked.
> 
> Also, just because fatal shots CAN not be instantly as such shouldn't excuse them being used except in desperate situations.



on all accounts? ok so that includes the narrative that brown punched wilson in his car? and that he charged at wilson? how can u say that the threat level was minimal? do u believe that an unarmed person cannot pose a dangerous or lethal threat to life? if wilson "played fair" and engaged in hand to hand combat and lost, do u not think brown would have taken control of his gun? would u rather there be a dead cop?


----------



## Jeremy

Fyi, when you fire a gun at someone, it's to kill.  Shooting to injure doesn't exist in reality.


----------



## KarlaKGB

Jeremy said:


> Fyi, when you fire a gun, it's to kill someone.  Shooting to injure doesn't exist in reality.



actually, u shoot to end the threat, with the understanding that it will likely involve killing them


----------



## M O L K O

KarlaKGB said:


> on all accounts? ok so that includes the narrative that brown punched wilson in his car? and that he charged at wilson? how can u say that the threat level was minimal? do u believe that an unarmed person cannot pose a dangerous or lethal threat to life? if wilson "played fair" and engaged in hand to hand combat and lost, do u not think brown would have taken control of his gun? would u rather there be a dead cop?



Because of D*rren's 'injuries' that have been proving by _real medical experts_, not someone who doesn't have a damn medical degree

and yes I do, unless he knows some martial art form or some ****

he's an officer, why didn't he have a taser for that situation..oh yea because it was 'uncomfortable'


----------



## Jarrad

KarlaKGB said:


> on all accounts? ok so that includes the narrative that brown punched wilson in his car? and that he charged at wilson? how can u say that the threat level was minimal? do u believe that an unarmed person cannot pose a dangerous or lethal threat to life? if wilson "played fair" and engaged in hand to hand combat and lost, do u not think brown would have taken control of his gun? would u rather there be a dead cop?



a dead cop which some say was corrupt with power
or
a young boy that ruthlessly stole cigarettes and showed aggressive resistance to said cop


----------



## LambdaDelta

KarlaKGB said:


> on all accounts? ok so that includes the narrative that brown punched wilson in his car? and that he charged at wilson? how can u say that the threat level was minimal? do u believe that an unarmed person cannot pose a dangerous or lethal threat to life? if wilson "played fair" and engaged in hand to hand combat and lost, do u not think brown would have taken control of his gun? would u rather there be a dead cop?



oh no, he punched him

big ****ing deal


even if he had to shoot, he had no excuse to shoot to kill

or you know, he could of used a taser or something

but he can't, because he's too much of a baby to carry one


----------



## KarlaKGB

M O L K O said:


> Because of D*rren's 'injuries' that have been proving by _real medical experts_, not someone who doesn't have a damn medical degree
> 
> and yes I do, unless he knows some martial art form or some ****
> 
> he's an officer, why didn't he have a taser for that situation..oh yea because it was 'uncomfortable'



my understanding is, that the person without the medical degree was the person who performed the private autopsy on brown.

- - - Post Merge - - -



LambdaDelta said:


> oh no, he punched him
> 
> big ****ing deal
> 
> 
> even if he had to shoot, he had no excuse to shoot to kill
> 
> or you know, he could of carried a taser or something
> 
> but he can't, because he's too much of a baby to carry one



read the above. theres no such thing as shooting to kill. u shoot to stop. it shows how much understanding of force on force encounters u have. do u believe that a gunshot will blow a person 20ft backwards?

- - - Post Merge - - -

source: http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/26/health/ferguson-michael-brown-pathologist-credentials/index.html


----------



## M O L K O

KarlaKGB said:


> my understanding is, that the person without the medical degree was the person who performed the private autopsy on brown.



exactly, do you see the problem here?

not to mention brown's body was left for dead for 4.5 hours. 
Also I will provide proof on request if you care to know. Will be more than willing if it means you'll be more open to the truth.


----------



## LambdaDelta

KarlaKGB said:


> theres not supposed to be such thing as shooting to kill. ur meant to shoot to stop.



fixed that for you


----------



## M O L K O

In fact..lemme go ahead

http://pathologyblawg.com/pathology...ls-makes-national-news-michael-brown-autopsy/



> After Mr. Parcells described himself as a “forensic pathologist assistant and medical investigator”, Dr. Mitchell says:
> 
> That is a degree that does not exist in my knowledge, except in the mind of Shawn Parcells…You cannot claim the title, because it is a formal, licensable position. You can assist somebody; in this way I can say, for instance, I have paid my taxes, so I am an assistant President of the United States…He has none of the qualifications that are required. He has experience as a morgue technician, somebody who would move bodies around, clean up after an autopsy…



little down in the text


> To his credit, Mr. Parcells admitted he is not certified as a pathologist assistant, but rather he is qualified due to his experience working under Dr. Young.
> 
> To this Dr. Young responded:
> 
> Shawn hung out at the Jackson County Medical Examiner’s office but was not trained by me.”…. “He has been representing himself in a way that is not appropriate by giving forensic pathology opinions when he is not qualified to do so.



and


> The post alleges, among other things, that it was Shawn Parcells alone, and not Mr. Parcells and Dr. Baden together, who performed the second autopsy of Michael Brown.
> 
> The post cites some seeming inconsistencies in the timeline of events as the basis for the allegation.  Specifically, an attorney for the Brown family stated on Friday August 15th that the second autopsy had already been performed, while the New York Times reported Dr. Baden did not arrive in St. Louis until Sunday August 17th.
> 
> The author then postulates Mr. Parcells performed the autopsy solo and that Dr. Baden was brought in later to review Mr. Parcells’ work and, without ever examining Mr. Brown’s body, “lend his credibility toward it.”


second reading if you'd like to educate further
http://theconservativetreehouse.com...-shawn-parcells-to-be-exposed-tonight-on-cnn/


----------



## Jarrad

Cops always have the decision to use deadly force, regardless or not whether it's necessary. 
Where was wilson's baton? his pepper spray? We shouldn't be arguing whether it was justifiable to shoot, even if it was to immobilize him (which realistically speaking is bogus.) When you aim a gun at another being and pull the trigger, you know that the odds of them dying are high. Wilson took extreme, deadly and inappropriate force to stop Brown. Would this case still yield the same outcome if Wilson had instead of shooting him, drove his car towards Brown and ran him over? Probably not, because we all know that being shot at has a higher percentage of killing us in comparison to being ran over, regardless of how barbaric it looks and sounds.


----------



## LambdaDelta

I

honestly never knew of that, though I can't say I'm terribly surprised

of course, I've never thought of that comparison either


----------



## KarlaKGB

M O L K O said:


> exactly, do you see the problem here?





> Parcells became an overnight media star in August when he assisted in an autopsy commissioned by Brown's family.


so wat ur telling me is, browns family commissioned this sham doctor to help with a sham autopsy on brown in order to exonerate wilson???


M O L K O said:


> not to mention brown's body was left for dead for 4.5 hours.


after which he came back to life?


----------



## ThomasNLD

oath2order said:


> So it's basically just "white people suck 2k14" and the white peoplr can't defend.
> 
> Okay.



This isn't the tone for the debate, but if you want to solve this problem at its roots, a deeper investigation and analysis of the current equality level is the way to go. Thing is though, there will never be an honest selfreflective respons from those who play a keyrole in the ongoing inequal politics. It is usually the next generation coming to new realisations, free of responsibility. But speaking up from a keyplayer is what could actually make some direct impact.

But this Is only part of it.
Point is though that incidents happen in a certain context. This shouldn't always change the way the incident is dealed with from a legal perspective, but it shouldn't be overlooked from a dealing with the emotional aftermath situation. 

The emotional outrage of the protesters obviously can influence the protest. But its more then that. If you don't feel heard or taken seriously, if you time after time see similar incidents without any change, it will create more agressive protest. If a pebble in the river won't change the course of it enough, you will throw a boulder in if the stakes are important enough.

Look outward, don't take it all to personal. By being honest about such issues, you don't condemn yourself just because in some way you share a bond with those in the wrong. You just show that as a group within a society you are able to look critical at yourself to preserve the integrity of it. Even when in the case of black/white speaking in terms of groups is probably more felt by the group experiencing the short end of the stick. Because when you see to much people getting that stick, it strengthens the feeling of connection. It becomes more of your reality.

I hope its clear this isn't all aimed at you, its feelings I have about this in general. This discussion is good, but for it to be productive, it would have to be had in a honest way at the highest level. Time for the leaders by example to shine!
Ofcourse ever since my 12th birthday I realised this will never happen. People are just to weak and indecent.


----------



## oath2order

M O L K O said:


> My narrative is that D*rren saw him jaywalking and found the perfect opportunity to use his force.
> For more information see page 9 and make sure to read the sources.



Why are you calling him "D*rren"?


----------



## M O L K O

KarlaKGB said:


> so wat ur telling me is, browns family commissioned this sham doctor to help with a sham autopsy on brown in order to exonerate wilson???
> 
> after which he came back to life?



I'm guess you didn't read the article



> Fast forward to August 2014.  After 18 year old Michael Brown was killed by Officer Darren Wilson, St. Louis County Chief Medical Examiner Dr. Mary Case performed an autopsy.  The family (or its attorney) then requested a second, private autopsy.
> 
> I was not the least bit surprised to see the family had asked Dr. Baden to perform the second autopsy, as there are very few forensic pathologists in this day and age who have the visibility and name recognition Dr. Baden has.
> 
> But I was very surprised to see Shawn Parcells standing on Dr. Baden’s right during the press conference in which the results of the second autopsy were revealed.



and no, he's still dead...why would you even mention that?
Its ok to think somethings right later to believe it is wrong, but keeping on to ignorant facts is not a good thing and is in fact dangerous. This is not just to you, but for everyone.

*If anyone has questions and/or concerns and wants to educate themselves I will gladly link your the masterpost and sources.*
Stay informed and safe everyone!

- - - Post Merge - - -



oath2order said:


> Why are you calling him "D*rren"?



He doesn't deserve his name to be known.


----------



## KarlaKGB

Jarrad said:


> Probably not, because we all know that being shot at has a higher percentage of killing us in comparison to being ran over, regardless of how barbaric it looks and sounds.



do we really? 6 out of 7 ppl shot by a handgun survive. they r nowhere near as lethal as ppl think


----------



## oath2order

We all know his name though


----------



## Jarrad

M O L K O said:


> I'm guess you didn't read the article
> 
> 
> 
> and no, he's still dead...why would you even mention that?
> Its ok to think somethings right later to believe it is wrong, but keeping on to ignorant facts is not a good thing and is in fact dangerous. This is not just to you, but for everyone.
> 
> *If anyone has questions and/or concerns and wants to educate themselves I will gladly link your the masterpost and sources.*
> Stay informed and safe everyone!



I want to know why Darren Wilson's attorney advised him against filing a report about the case. Do you know of anything?


----------



## radical6

M O L K O said:


> He doesn't deserve his name to be known.



uh people still know you're talking about him if u censor one letter. and yes he does deserve to be known. I want his face to be known so he's afraid to walk in public because he knows what's he's done. he's already been walking around in disguises because he's afraid. I hope no one lets him live this down ever. lmao


----------



## KarlaKGB

M O L K O said:


> He doesn't deserve his name to be known.



u consider urself fit to debate this issue when ur so emotionally invested in it? theres no way u can be objective about it.


----------



## MishMeesh

If we're circling back around to the argument that Wilson acted in self-defence, to lawfully rule it self-defence he must have been unable to retreat. Wilson had a car/was in a car when he could have retreated. Instead of exiting his car to shoot Brown, he should have, by law, driven away and asked for backup.


----------



## Jarrad

KarlaKGB said:


> do we really? 6 out of 7 ppl shot by a handgun survive. they r nowhere near as lethal as ppl think



If they're "nowhere near as lethal as ppl think" then why are they being resorted to as a means of a last-resort defence by police?

http://www.pfoa.co.uk/110/shooting-to-wound


----------



## KarlaKGB

Jarrad said:


> If they're "nowhere near as lethal as ppl think" then why are they being resorted to as a means of a last-resort defence by police?
> 
> http://www.pfoa.co.uk/110/shooting-to-wound



do u disagree that handguns r not one shot killers?


----------



## LambdaDelta

please use proper spelling and punctuation

its hard to take anything you've said seriously, when you can't even be assed to do that much


----------



## M O L K O

Jarrad said:


> I want to know why Darren Wilson's attorney advised him against filing a report about the case. Do you know of anything?



That is one question I can't answer with credible sources

I just think they hoped it would be swept under the rug

a) they didn't interview eye witnesses for five days after 
http://m.stltoday.com/news/local/cr...5bdd-b18b-34c9d8c688e7.html?mobile_touch=true

b) The fact no photos of mike's injuries were taken on scene (due to camera batteries dying) like get some batteries/new camera wtf
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/na...n-documents/JEgxCWRIx9y9xYF9QjToeJ/story.html

I also have this link, about darren not filing
http://news.yahoo.com/ferguson-poli...-of-michael-brown-doesnt-exist-001401818.html


----------



## Jarrad

LambdaDelta said:


> please use proper spelling and punctuation
> 
> its hard to take anything you've said seriously, when you can't even be assed to do that much



This.


----------



## KarlaKGB

Jarrad said:


> This.



wanna answer my question??


----------



## M O L K O

justice said:


> uh people still know you're talking about him if u censor one letter. and yes he does deserve to be known. I want his face to be known so he's afraid to walk in public because he knows what's he's done. he's already been walking around in disguises because he's afraid. I hope no one lets him live this down ever. lmao



This is true, I was thinking of making a Darren avatar with the words murder on it but I don't think I can stomach looking at him over and over.

- - - Post Merge - - -



KarlaKGB said:


> u consider urself fit to debate this issue when ur so emotionally invested in it? theres no way u can be objective about it.



I'm objective about the looting thats about it. When there's more proof for something than against it I tend to side with that :// 
Also any thoughts on the sources I gave you?


----------



## Jarrad

M O L K O said:


> That is one question I can't answer with credible sources
> 
> I just think they hoped it would be swept under the rug
> 
> a) they didn't interview eye witnesses for five days after
> http://m.stltoday.com/news/local/cr...5bdd-b18b-34c9d8c688e7.html?mobile_touch=true
> 
> b) The fact no photos of mike's injuries were taken on scene (due to camera batteries dying) like get some batteries/new camera wtf
> https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/na...n-documents/JEgxCWRIx9y9xYF9QjToeJ/story.html
> 
> I also have this link, about darren not filing
> http://news.yahoo.com/ferguson-poli...-of-michael-brown-doesnt-exist-001401818.html



It all seems to be full of secrecy. 
Wilson knows himself what he did was murder, otherwise he wouldn't have had a problem filing a report. I mean, the fact that he felt as though he should consult his attorney says pretty much everything.


----------



## LambdaDelta

M O L K O said:


> This is true, I was thinking of making a Darren avatar with the words murder on it but I don't think I can stomach looking at him over and over.



I'd be amazed if you could stomach using him for what plenty of people here could recognize you by tbh


----------



## Jarrad

KarlaKGB said:


> wanna answer my question??



Why don't you actually read what I replied to?


----------



## M O L K O

Jarrad said:


> It all seems to be full of secrecy.
> Wilson knows himself what he did was murder, otherwise he wouldn't have had a problem filing a report. I mean, the fact that he felt as though he should consult his attorney says pretty much everything.



That and I think he figured the KKK would cover his tracks like before
http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...4-8593-da634b334390_story.html?wpmk=MK0000203


----------



## Jarrad

M O L K O said:


> That and I think he figured the KKK would cover his tracks like before
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...4-8593-da634b334390_story.html?wpmk=MK0000203



It's like the evidence is sitting right in front of us...

- - - Post Merge - - -

I mean, even the high school he attended was prominently made up of white middle-class students. The first job he landed was in a police department which had a strong tension between themselves and a neighbour hood of 14,000, 89% of which were african-american

This is definite proof that Wilson racially profiled Brown, which then led to his death. Wilson was raised in a predominantly white background, he had probably never dealt with people of colour before, and when he did they were most likely subject to racism, because that happens everywhere in schools where black students are minorities.  

Or I could be wrong


----------



## Jeremy

Guys, if you want to discuss the issue, don't 1) make ad hom attacks 2) make straw man arguments 3) post links and claim they say something they don't 4) disrespect views that you don't hold yourself 5) use overly emotional language 6) make baseless assumptions.  If everyone can be respectful to each other, perhaps the thread won't turn into incivility.


----------



## Jeremy

Jarrad said:


> It's like the evidence is sitting right in front of us...
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> I mean, even the high school he attended was prominently made up of white middle-class students. The first job he landed was in a police department which had a strong tension between themselves and a neighbour hood of 14,000, 89% of which were african-american
> 
> This is definite proof that Wilson racially profiled Brown, which then led to his death. Wilson was raised in a predominantly white background, he had probably never dealt with people of colour before, and when he did they were most likely subject to racism, because that happens everywhere in schools where black students are minorities.
> 
> Or I could be wrong



Being raised in a "white" high school or working for a police department that is mostly white is not definite proof that someone is a racist.


----------



## M O L K O

Jarrad said:


> It's like the evidence is sitting right in front of us...
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> I mean, even the high school he attended was prominently made up of white middle-class students. The first job he landed was in a police department which had a strong tension between themselves and a neighbour hood of 14,000, 89% of which were african-american
> 
> This is definite proof that Wilson racially profiled Brown, which then led to his death. Wilson was raised in a predominantly white background, he had probably never dealt with people of colour before, and when he did they were most likely subject to racism, because that happens everywhere in schools where black students are minorities.
> 
> Or I could be wrong



I woudn't say that because someone is raised around all whites they'll become racist however in this case it does seem to be true


and the ferguson police has ties with the KKK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MP8Of6gbZaM#t=285
And Anon has claimed that he has ties the Ghoul squad but hasnt given the proof yet.

However here are some of the incidents that are against darren and his use of force and racial discrimantion
http://www.scribd.com/doc/238797133/Christopher-Brooks-Arrest-Report
and
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/sh...mendment-ill-lock-ass-up-arrests-man-filming/
and
more on the first link, about Brooks
http://news.yahoo.com/attorney-ferg...wilson-roughed-up-drug-suspect-231634921.html

- - - Post Merge - - -



Jeremy said:


> Guys, if you want to discuss the issue, don't 1) make ad hom attacks 2) make straw man arguments 3) post links and claim they say something they don't 4) disrespect views that you don't hold yourself 5) use overly emotional language 6) make baseless assumptions.  If everyone can be respectful to each other, perhaps the thread won't turn into incivility.



Would it be better to quote in the article and then source? Just wondering I want to keep this thread up to keep people informed so I want to make sure I'm going along with the rules.


----------



## Jarrad

Jeremy said:


> Being raised in a "white" high school or working for a police department that is mostly white is not definite proof that someone is a racist.



I know. Hence why I wrote I could be wrong.

Not just a white police department, but one that was disbanded due to the tensions between the white police force and  the black community


----------



## radical6

wasnt wilsons old police force disbanded because of racism?

- - - Post Merge - - -

oh jarrad already talked about it nvm


----------



## unintentional

Sadly, the news can't tell the difference between protesters and the looters :c


----------



## MrPuzzleMan

Saint_Jimmy said:


> Sadly, the news can't tell the difference between protesters and the looters :c



Can't or won't. It is much easier for them to demonize all of them than point out those simply using their right to peacefully protest are not like those who use violence.


----------



## Trundle

I'm sorry for any of you living in America with the rest of the incredibly stupid government and inability to create laws that are relevant to today's culture instead of the early 1700s. Good riddance of anyone who has died. The more controversial deaths the closer you become to a civil war. Please come sooner so we can wipe your stupid toxic country off the face of the Earth.


----------



## MrPuzzleMan

Trundle said:


> I'm sorry for any of you living in America with the rest of the incredibly stupid government and inability to create laws that are relevant to today's culture instead of the early 1700s. Good riddance of anyone who has died. The more controversial deaths the closer you become to a civil war. Please come sooner so we can wipe your stupid toxic country off the face of the Earth.



This topic is irrelevant to the issue at hand. Please post elsewhere if you want to discuss this.


----------



## unintentional

Trundle said:


> I'm sorry for any of you living in America with the rest of the incredibly stupid government and inability to create laws that are relevant to today's culture instead of the early 1700s. Good riddance of anyone who has died. The more controversial deaths the closer you become to a civil war. Please come sooner so we can wipe your stupid toxic country off the face of the Earth.



I understood up to that last sentence.


----------



## f11

Trundle said:


> I'm sorry for any of you living in America with the rest of the incredibly stupid government and inability to create laws that are relevant to today's culture instead of the early 1700s. Good riddance of anyone who has died. The more controversial deaths the closer you become to a civil war. Please come sooner so we can wipe your stupid toxic country off the face of the Earth.


Although Americas bad, every single country has racism. You cannot act like America is the only one.


----------



## tobi!

Crys said:


> Although Americas bad, every single country has racism. You cannot act like America is the only one.



Yeah, picking on America and acting like it's the worst country in the world is dumber than our government.


----------



## Trundle

Crys said:


> Although Americas bad, every single country has racism. You cannot act like America is the only one.



I think the difference is the full access to information and rights to education but you still don't learn anything because the hicks are too lazy and unintelligent.


----------



## Caius

Trundle. :|


----------



## MrPuzzleMan

This is clearly getting off topic...


----------



## LambdaDelta

Trundle said:


> I'm sorry for any of you living in America with the rest of the incredibly stupid government and inability to create laws that are relevant to today's culture instead of the early 1700s. Good riddance of anyone who has died. The more controversial deaths the closer you become to a civil war. Please come sooner so we can wipe your stupid toxic country off the face of the Earth.



Let's play a game.

It's called "find the complete hypocrisy in this post"


----------



## Trundle

LambdaDelta said:


> Let's play a game.
> 
> It's called "find the complete hypocrisy in this post"



that's the difference between arguing and baiting


----------



## Caius

How about neither please.


----------



## unintentional

Trundle said:


> that's the difference between arguing and baiting



Just please stop c:


----------



## MrPuzzleMan

Please try to keep this civil.


----------



## Alolan_Apples

Crys said:


> Although Americas bad, every single country has racism. You cannot act like America is the only one.



Isn't america one of the least racist countries in the world? I mean, others have racism, but we don't have government-sanctioned racism anymore.


----------



## f11

Apple2012 said:


> Isn't america one of the least racist countries in the world? I mean, others have racism, but we don't have government-sanctioned racism anymore.


It's not.


----------



## Caius

Apple2012 said:


> Isn't america one of the least racist countries in the world? I mean, others have racism, but we don't have government-sanctioned racism anymore.



uhhhh.. not exactly.


----------



## M O L K O

Apple2012 said:


> Isn't america one of the least racist countries in the world? I mean, others have racism, but we don't have government-sanctioned racism anymore.



That would be the police department that has ties with the KKK

Also this thread is not about america being racist or not but mike browns unjust death and the crimes of Darren Wilson if you would like to provide sources I'd gladly look through them and have a debate about the contents


----------



## Tinkalila

mike brown is innocent
cops are pigs
that is all


----------



## Radda

Well everyone is hecka racist towards this,and I am getting really sick of seeing people riot and debate about this bs,so I don't give a shiit.


----------



## Alolan_Apples

Now here is a question that this thread ponders. Is Darren Wilson worse than George Zimmerman? Both did the same thing. Racial profiling, shooting an un-armed black person in the teen years, and getting away with what they did. Who do you think is worse?


----------



## radical6

Apple2012 said:


> Now here is a question that this thread ponders. Is Darren Wilson worse than George Zimmerman? Both did the same thing. Racial profiling, shooting an un-armed black person in the teen years, and getting away with what they did. Who do you think is worse?



theyre both scumbags and i want to watch them burn. theyre equally as bad. why would you ask this question lol? you think just because zimmerman isnt white i would let him off a little more?


----------



## unintentional

Apple2012 said:


> Now here is a question that this thread ponders. Is Darren Wilson worse than George Zimmerman? Both did the same thing. Racial profiling, shooting an un-armed black person in the teen years, and getting away with what they did. Who do you think is worse?



They both took someone's life.  They are both terrible people for that reason.


----------



## LambdaDelta

Apple2012 said:


> Now here is a question that this thread ponders. Is Darren Wilson worse than George Zimmerman? Both did the same thing. Racial profiling, shooting an un-armed black person in the teen years, and getting away with what they did. Who do you think is worse?



What exactly are you trying to prove?


----------



## Lady Timpani

justice said:


> theyre both scumbags and i want to watch them burn. theyre equally as bad. why would you ask this question lol? you think just because zimmerman isnt white i would let him off a little more?



^^^^ 

Zimmerman still shot a totally innocent kid who did nothing wrong other than walk in his neighborhood in the dark. Zimmerman preyed on Treyvon Martin and acted like a vigilante when it wasn't his place to do so, even after the 911 operator told him to back off. 

Wilson is bad because he was charged with protecting the citizens of his city, not shooting them for allegedly stealing a box of cigars. 

As far as I'm concerned, they are equal in guilt.


----------



## unintentional

LambdaDelta said:


> What exactly are you trying to prove?



I think that Apple may think some people think Wilson is worse than Zimmerman (because Wilson is white, and Zimmerman isn't.)  It's certainly that way with my family.


----------



## Alolan_Apples

justice said:


> theyre both scumbags and i want to watch them burn. theyre equally as bad. why would you ask this question lol? you think just because zimmerman isnt white i would let him off a little more?



Well I think Zimmerman was worse. Even if they both did the same thing, Zimmerman already had a criminal record before. Then we hear about the incidents with his wife and girlfriend. Wilson was nothing like that.

I know I may sound uncivil if I say this, but I believed that the real bad guys between the shooter and the victim in both incidents are the people who radically support the victim. Not only they make the shooter (the one who defends himself) look like a hate criminal, they are also ruining the lives of people who opposed the victim for being a criminal. So I'm not taking any sides, but the ones who radically support one side needs to stop attacking the other side or those who are indifferent.


----------



## unintentional

Apple2012 said:


> Well I think Zimmerman was worse. Even if they both did the same thing, Zimmerman already had a criminal record before. Then we hear about the incidents with his wife and girlfriend. Wilson was nothing like that.



I personally feel regardless of if you did anything before killing someone, as soon as you do kill a person, you are literal scum who needs to die.


----------



## M O L K O

Apple2012 said:


> Now here is a question that this thread ponders. Is Darren Wilson worse than George Zimmerman? Both did the same thing. Racial profiling, shooting an un-armed black person in the teen years, and getting away with what they did. Who do you think is worse?



Darren only because he's a cop and supposed to protect citizens not murder them.


----------



## Caius

Ah the Zimmerman case. Something I can actually contribute more to than "I don't know" because I lived in the area and knew a couple of the kids friends. 

In Zimmerman's case, the man thought he was doing the right thing by protecting the neighborhood (regardless of what the kid actually did or not) and the kid wasn't completely innocent either. HOWEVER, it was proven the kid wasn't doing anything that night and his friends thought it to be excessively out of character for him to even be attacking someone else. He was mostly a pacifist. He wasn't completely innocent all the time, but I really think that was a 'wrong place at the wrong time' kind of thing.

Ocala/Apopka is a rough area of Florida. It's no Detroit, but drive by's and shootings/stabbings/murders happen all the time. In that case, I can see why Zimmerman would carry a gun with him. However, the man was also completely unstable, using it towards his own family and friends and being caught playing neighborhood watch more than he should have. When I worked in an acupuncture clinic up in the Apopka area, it was actually not all that uncommon to hear his friends and family had come in, and usually when you're getting needles driven into you, you're asked what's stressing you out. He was a big topic of discussion.

In that case, I think I can agree that Zimmerman should have been charged. And honestly the cases aren't all that unrelated besides the fact that one guy thought he was a cop while the other actually was one.


----------



## LambdaDelta

Saint_Jimmy said:


> I think that Apple may think some people think Wilson is worse than Zimmerman (because Wilson is white, and Zimmerman isn't.)  It's certainly that way with my family.



Well I can't argue with that, though I also don't remember this being stated or even implied here.

Though that being said, that mindset is just as toxic imo. There's plenty of scummy white people, but there's also more than a fair share of scummy people of other ethnicities. Which by the same token, there's also plenty of genuinely good people from all different backgrounds.

Racial profiling (especially against blacks) has become a heavy issue due to this and other recent incidents, but as a whole, the fair and just human rights treatment needed should apply to everyone; regardless of race, gender, religion, social background, etc.


Maybe in a millennium we'll have made actual progress with this, assuming we don't all cause our extinction beforehand.


----------



## Alolan_Apples

Now I hope that nobody hates me for simply supporting Wilson. I'm not supporting murder, racial profiling, or police brutality, but I still don't believe that Wilson did all that.

Why do you think it's humane to hate Wilson supporters?


----------



## LambdaDelta

uh

nobody ever said or implied anything about that

like ever

- - - Post Merge - - -

(at least here, I can't speak for other outlets)


----------



## radical6

Apple2012 said:


> Now I hope that nobody hates me for simply supporting Wilson. I'm not supporting murder, racial profiling, or police brutality, but I still don't believe that Wilson did all that.
> 
> Why do you think it's humane to hate Wilson supporters?



why do you keep asking questions like this


----------



## M O L K O

Apple2012 said:


> Now I hope that nobody hates me for simply supporting Wilson. I'm not supporting murder, racial profiling, or police brutality, but I still don't believe that Wilson did all that.
> 
> Why do you think it's humane to hate Wilson supporters?



Did you read a few pages back the sources and mounds of information? If you like I can quote the parts that pin-point murder, police brutality and racial profiling. Also I'd like sources on your side as well, why do you believe he's innocent? What news outlets have you been getting your research from?


----------



## LambdaDelta

Also, your question is far too vague to be answered properly.

While their are surely supporters I'd dislike, it also depends on exactly WHY they're supporting him.


But really, since when was simply not liking someone inhumane?


----------



## Caius

LambdaDelta said:


> Also, your question is far too vague to be answered properly.
> 
> While their are surely supporters I'd dislike, it also depends on exactly WHY they're supporting him.
> 
> 
> But really, since when was simply not liking someone inhumane?



I can agree with this. There's loads of people I don't like. Doesn't make me a racist, profiler, or anything along those lines. When it comes down to this case it's all about why the supporters are supporting him.


----------



## M O L K O

LambdaDelta said:


> Also, your question is far too vague to be answered properly.
> 
> While their are surely supporters I'd dislike, it also depends on exactly WHY they're supporting him.
> 
> 
> But really, since when was simply not liking someone inhumane?



I agree with this as well, It's mostly the reasons why and the barrage of derogatory terms people on twitter and tumblr use when defending Darren that bother most people.


----------



## Alolan_Apples

I'm going to abandon this thread now, but to clear, I do not support wilson for the same reasons you oppose him. If I were, than I would be a racist. But I'm not a racist. I don't think racists should be given any respect. But I don't think all cops are enemies either. Maybe the issue was a misunderstanding.


----------



## Caius

No one claimed -all- cops are enemies though. Cops are people and as people they're susceptible to the same things the rest of us are, discrimination. If cops were robocop we wouldn't be having this discussion, but even robocop was half human.


----------



## Princess

Jarrad said:


> Hello? Did you seriously just ask me WHY I responded to him in that manor? Are you totally oblivious to what he said?


I know what he said, but you're jumping to conclusions and that helps no body.


> Hundreds of people have been complaining that their content regarding the ferguson case has been deleted.


Source? This is interesting.



> I've read about the Ferguson case from several different sources, with some saying that brown was stopped by Wilson and fled immediately, prompting him to fire 12 times, whilst others say that Wilson detained Brown and his friend in his car, from which they both fled through the windows of the car, and in the process Wilson was harmed (and by harmed I mean that tiny pimple-looking injury on his chin/cheek). I admit, that I, and pretty much everybody else, have no 100% idea of what took place.


And we never will. Read what was presented in court, not random sites..



> Don't tell me what to do, please.


Likewise.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Apple2012 said:


> How is it possible to be Republican, but believe that Wilson is guilty?


what the ****


----------



## LambdaDelta

Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure most people here aren't singling out all cops as bad either.

It's focusing on corruption in the force, but only because that's what needs to be focused on.


Me personally, as a baseline I have plenty of respect for officers and anyone else in a similar line of work. Due to knowing the constant **** they have to deal with, in addition to the fact that they're willingly putting themselves at lethal risk on a daily basis (potentially quite literally, depending on the area they're assigned to). But at the same time, the more respect I have for someone, and especially for reasons such as what they're meant to do, the easier it is to lose that respect.

The Ferguson Police Department has just shown themselves to be unworthy of acting as officers to me, and there's surely other officers at other stations that also don't deserve their title, but applying this mindset to all officers is just downright insulting to those that genuinely mean to help protect civilians. Especially those that had actually died on duty attempting to do just that.


----------



## Cazqui

ZR388 said:


> No one claimed -all- cops are enemies though. Cops are people and as people they're susceptible to the same things the rest of us are, discrimination. If cops were robocop we wouldn't be having this discussion, but even robocop was half human.



Agreed. For some reason some people are under the notion that every cop is some evil trigger happy racist, when that isn't the case at all.


----------



## LambdaDelta

ZR388 said:


> No one claimed -all- cops are enemies though. Cops are people and as people they're susceptible to the same things the rest of us are, discrimination. If cops were robocop we wouldn't be having this discussion, but even robocop was half human.



robocop is the cop we need, but not the cop we deserve


----------



## Caius

LambdaDelta said:


> robocop is the cop we need, but not the cop we deserve



Yes but can I remind you *robocop is still half human.*


----------



## Lady Timpani

Of course not all cops, prosecutors, etc. are racist; people are just fed up with the cops who _are_ racist getting away with what they've done. 

If anything can be taken away from cases like these, it is that our justice system is badly in need of repair.


----------



## LambdaDelta

ZR388 said:


> Yes but can I remind you *robocop is still half human.*



well at least he has some humanity still :^)

(this discussion is silly)


----------



## Caius

Just lightening the mood.


----------



## Gradeon Magus

I'm just gonna leave this here. '3'


----------



## Caius

Back on track


----------



## Trent the Paladin

Saint_Jimmy said:


> I personally feel regardless of if you did anything before killing someone, as soon as you do kill a person, you are literal scum who needs to die.



So if you're ever in a situation where you absolutely have to fight somebody else to the death to save the life of another, say for example a home invasion, you'd let them die or you feel you are literal scum? Killing is awful sure, but simply labeling all people who have killed as the scum of the earth isn't right.

Also somebody mentioned something about why not taze him instead I believe? Kinda relevant link unless you believe all Police Officers are pigs: here

Body Cams: Discussed here

Other AskLEO Ferguson related threads: Here

Perhaps not credible sources, but they give insight into some matters. 

There's also still a federal inquiry into Darren Wilson so something still can happen: Link


----------



## Caius

Federal inquiry yes, but you can't hold a trial for the same thing twice. That's why Casey Anthony isn't going down even though it was proven after the trial she's guilty.


----------



## Zanessa

ZR388 said:


> Federal inquiry yes, but you can't hold a trial for the same thing twice. That's why Casey Anthony isn't going down even though it was proven after the trial she's guilty.



Was it really? Oh my god.. //dies


----------



## Lady Timpani

ZR388 said:


> Federal inquiry yes, but you can't hold a trial for the same thing twice. That's why Casey Anthony isn't going down even though it was proven after the trial she's guilty.



I thought they were thinking of taking the grand jury to Missouri's Supreme Court? I'm not too sure on how that works, but since there wasn't any actual trial, I thought they could do that.


----------



## Trent the Paladin

ZR388 said:


> Federal inquiry yes, but you can't hold a trial for the same thing twice. That's why Casey Anthony isn't going down even though it was proven after the trial she's guilty.



True, but it can still bring about changes with the way that Ferguson PD operates to lead to hopefully less dependence on racial profiling.


----------



## Caius

ZanessaGaily said:


> Was it really? Oh my god.. //dies



Yep. It's considered unconstitutional to hold a trial for the same thing twice, and forensic evidence found she killed her daughter and burred her outside her parents house in Winter Park, FL. This was all found out after the trial ended and a jury came to a verdict, so nothing came of it besides the woman having to go into hiding and having half of WPK out for her blood. When I lived there I remember people at the gas station talking about going to the neighborhood and *destroying houses* to find her.



Tom said:


> True, but it can still bring about changes with the way that Ferguson PD operates to lead to hopefully less dependence on racial profiling.



Maybe. It's probably best to assume at this point the entire PD needs to be flushed and a psych profile performed on new officers going in like in most states.


----------



## Trent the Paladin

ZanessaGaily said:


> Was it really? Oh my god.. //dies



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_jeopardy

Not to be confused with the movie named after this.


----------



## Zanessa

Tom said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_jeopardy
> 
> Not to be confused with the movie named after this.



No, no, I'm aware of the double jeopardy thing. But I never knew about evidence that she killed her daughter was found.


----------



## Caius

ZanessaGaily said:


> No, no, I'm aware of the double jeopardy thing. But I never knew about evidence that she killed her daughter was found.



Yep. Unfortunate stuff.


----------



## tobi!

ZR388 said:


> Yep. Unfortunate stuff.



She's well known now and she's being shunned. I guess it's some sort of punishment that she's known as "America's Worst Mom"


----------



## LambdaDelta

Tom said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_jeopardy



side agenda: this thing needs to be reworked

I get the idea of it, but as a baseline, and especially when hard evidence is found, it should become irrelevant

basically it should be a privilege that all start with, but if situations change, then it becomes one they lose


----------



## SuperVandal

LambdaDelta said:


> side agenda: this thing needs to be reworked
> 
> I get the idea of it, but as a baseline, and especially when hard evidence is found, it should become irrelevant
> 
> basically it should be a privilege that all start with, but if situations change, then it becomes one they lose



such a thing could be easily abused if reworked like that. like yeah, i understand what you're saying and it'd help bring about justice but i personally see it going south very quickly.


----------



## Yuki Nagato

A thug stole and put his dirty hands on an officers gun. He got all he deserved.


----------



## Caius

Yuki Nagato said:


> A thug stole and put his dirty hands on an officers gun. He got all he deserved.



"Dirty"

"Thug"

Those are some pretty harsh words there.


----------



## KarlaKGB

Yuki Nagato said:


> A thug stole and put his dirty hands on an officers gun. He got all he deserved.



prepare to get lynched by the tbt apologists


----------



## LambdaDelta

I like how the ones that support Wilson are far more insulting/rude about compared to those that don't.

- - - Post Merge - - -



SuperVandal said:


> such a thing could be easily abused if reworked like that. like yeah, i understand what you're saying and it'd help bring about justice but i personally see it going south very quickly.



I get what you're saying, but its not like other things in the system aren't already abused I'm sure. Regardless though, it should still exist, just not as the end-all be-all that it is now.

Hell, you could argue that this case is abusing double jeopardy, if you were to say that the trial itself was biased.


----------



## Yuki Nagato

LambdaDelta said:


> I like how the ones that support Wilson are far more insulting/rude about compared to those that don't.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> 
> 
> I get what you're saying, but its not like other things in the system aren't already abused I'm sure. Regardless though, it should still exist, just not as the end-all be-all that it is now.
> 
> Hell, you could argue that this case is abusing double jeopardy, if you were to say that the trial itself was biased.



Or maybe it's just we don't sugar coat what happened. We don't support criminals.


----------



## LambdaDelta

Nobody's sugarcoating anything here.

Some of us are just choosing to look through this at all possible angles at all possible relevant moments though.


----------



## CommanderLeahShepard

I'm not sure, my opinion varies. Also I am not too sure on what happened.


----------



## Zanessa

Yuki Nagato said:


> A thug stole and put his dirty hands on an officers gun. He got all he deserved.



Okay. So let's say he did touch the gun. Where are the fingerprints? Why weren't any taken? 
Okay.


----------



## unintentional

Tom said:


> So if you're ever in a situation where you absolutely have to fight somebody else to the death to save the life of another, say for example a home invasion, you'd let them die or you feel you are literal scum? Killing is awful sure, but simply labeling all people who have killed as the scum of the earth isn't right.
> 
> Also somebody mentioned something about why not taze him instead I believe? Kinda relevant link unless you believe all Police Officers are pigs: here
> 
> Body Cams: Discussed here
> 
> Other AskLEO Ferguson related threads: Here
> 
> Perhaps not credible sources, but they give insight into some matters.
> 
> There's also still a federal inquiry into Darren Wilson so something still can happen: Link



I wasn't talk about if it was in self defense (obviously, or at least I thought so.)


----------



## oath2order

Personally I hope nothing comes from the federal inquiry since it's basically just a lynch mob at this point


----------



## f11

Yuki Nagato said:


> A thug stole and put his dirty hands on an officers gun. He got all he deserved.


hiw was he a thug? Why was there not a finger print check in the gun? sources?


----------



## LaceGloves

Darren Wilson shot an unarmed teenager 7 times. The boy had his hands above his head, and he died 158 feet away from the police vehicle. It is also stated that Darren Wilson did not know the boy robbed the store. In fact, the man that was working at the store at the time didn't even call the police. (There is video evidence of the teen paying for his cigarettes as well) It is understood that Michael Brown was a big guy and could probably punch the crap out of this police officer, but that is not the case either. Just look at the pictures of Darren Wilson's "injuries". It's like nothing is there! If the gun was necessary, it should have been used to APPREHEND this boy, not kill him. Petty theft is not punishable by death.
That should state enough.

I am very passionate about this subject, because my stepfather's best friend was shot and killed by an officer with no reason whatsoever. It changed his life forever. This is the stuff that happens every day, and I believe that as a community, we have no choice but to act out at this point. This issue has been a silent killer of minorities for so long, and I am tired of it being swept under the rug.

Darren Wilson didn't even get indicted, people!


----------



## Amissapanda

LaceGloves said:


> Darren Wilson shot an unarmed teenager 7 times. The boy had his hands above his head, and he died 158 feet away from the police vehicle. It is also stated that Darren Wilson did not know the boy robbed the store. In fact, the man that was working at the store at the time didn't even call the police. (There is also video evidence of the teen paying for his cigarettes as well) It is understood that Michael Brown was a big guy and could probably punch the crap out of this police officer, but that is not the case either. Just look at the pictures of Darren Wilson's "injuries". It's like nothing is there! If the gun was necessary, it should've been used to APPREHEND this boy, not kill him. Petty theft is not punishable by death.
> That should state enough.
> 
> I am very passionate about this subject, because my stepfather's best friend was shot and killed by an officer with no reason whatsoever. It changed his life forever. This is the stuff that happens every day, and I believe that as a community, we have no choice but to act out at this point. This issue has been a silent killer of minorities for so long, and I am tired of it being swept under the rug.
> 
> Darren Wilson didn't even get indicted people!



I'm one-hundred percent in agreement with everything that you said. This is just one incident out of hundreds, _thousands_ of cases of police brutality and killing that was unwarranted. Some of those who were the victims were mere children, even. The law should _not_ protect these people from facing their crimes, no matter what their position is. It does not give them the right to dodge the law and dodge punishment. 

This needs to stop. The people who are supposed to be protecting us and upholding law are the very ones who are abusing it.


----------



## oath2order

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/30/us/ferguson.html?_r=0

an update

- - - Post Merge - - -

http://online.wsj.com/articles/protesters-swarm-mall-near-ferguson-1417206782?mod=e2fb

Comment I like: "They have the right to peacefully protest.  They do not have the right to loot, destroy businesses or interfere with intrastate or interstate commerce. Hopefully, many photos were taken and these individuals will be appropriately charged for their criminal behavior.   Blocking mall entrances hurts businesses that had nothing to do with the case.  Blocking interstates and other roads have hindered those gainfully employed from getting to work on time.  Their 1st Amendment right to protest is not superior to public safety, or the usage of interstate highways. "


----------



## oranje

oath2order said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/30/us/ferguson.html?_r=0
> 
> an update
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> http://online.wsj.com/articles/protesters-swarm-mall-near-ferguson-1417206782?mod=e2fb
> 
> Comment I like: "They have the right to peacefully protest.  They do not have the right to loot, destroy businesses or interfere with intrastate or interstate commerce. Hopefully, many photos were taken and these individuals will be appropriately charged for their criminal behavior.   Blocking mall entrances hurts businesses that had nothing to do with the case.  Blocking interstates and other roads have hindered those gainfully employed from getting to work on time.  Their 1st Amendment right to protest is not superior to public safety, or the usage of interstate highways. "



I agree that looting is terrible, but as far as I know, the looting only made up a small portion of the overall protests and was probably due to some people trying to be opportunistic and not actually caring what happened in Ferguson. And from what I understand, I thought protesting was supposed to be disruptive. No one will care or pay attention unless you bring the issue front and center. Average Joe on the street won't care or even realize what the issues really are unless the issue is brought to him. I think as long as it's peaceful, it's fine. I think most employers/teachers would understand if you said you were late due to protesters and honestly, I don't think the need to buy things (unless it's an emergency) trumps the civil rights of the oppressed.


----------



## Alolan_Apples

I felt that the social media has ruined Wilson's life. I'm now adding every user who believed that Wilson was guilty with a strong passion to my ignore list.


----------



## oath2order

oranje said:


> I agree that looting is terrible, but as far as I know, the looting only made up a small portion of the overall protests and was probably due to some people trying to be opportunistic and not actually caring what happened in Ferguson. And from what I understand, I thought protesting was supposed to be disruptive. No one will care or pay attention unless you bring the issue front and center. Average Joe on the street won't care or even realize what the issues really are unless the issue is brought to him. I think as long as it's peaceful, it's fine. I think most employers/teachers would understand if you said you were late due to protesters and honestly, I don't think the need to buy things (unless it's an emergency) trumps the civil rights of the oppressed.



They shut down the BART in California for an hour. So **** them.


----------



## Zanessa

Apple2012 said:


> I felt that the social media has ruined Wilson's life.



His life was ruined the minute his name was released. He just resigned from his job. Think anyone's going to hire him now? 
Social media has nothing to do with his life being ruined.


----------



## oranje

oath2order said:


> They shut down the BART in California for an hour. So **** them.



So could a number of other things (accidents, weather, ect). So just as long as no one was harmed in the protests, I don't see why an hour of being late to work/school is a big deal. Just document what happened and show it to your professor/boss to show that it wasn't your fault for being late.


----------



## LaceGloves

Apple2012 said:


> I felt that the social media has ruined Wilson's life. I'm now adding every user who believed that Wilson was guilty with a strong passion to my ignore list.



He made about 1 million dollars in donations. He also went on vacation and got married. 
His life is far from ruined. :/
Note that he got all this recognition and money from killing a teenager.


----------



## Alolan_Apples

ZanessaGaily said:


> His life was ruined the minute his name was released. He just resigned from his job. Think anyone's going to hire him now?
> Social media has nothing to do with his life being ruined.



Some people who had their lives ruined chose to let their lives be ruined. Other people who had their lives ruined had theirs ruined by another person or society. I felt that Wilson was part of the latter.


----------



## LaceGloves

I believe the looting is unnecessary, but there have been many more peaceful protests in comparison
We all know that protests eventually bring change.

Also, we haven't been looking at the fact that the police force is using tear gas and force on protestors...


----------



## Alolan_Apples

LaceGloves said:


> He made about 1 million dollars in donations. He also went on vacation and got married.
> His life is far from ruined. :/
> Note that he got all this recognition and money from killing a teenager.



But there are some who hated him so much to the point that he quits. He might be afraid of people he doesn't know.

Stuff like the Trayvon Martin incident and Michael Brown incident should be left out of the national news and should be left with the local news.


----------



## f11

Apple2012 said:


> I felt that the social media has ruined Wilson's life. I'm now adding every user who believed that Wilson was guilty with a strong passion to my ignore list.


wow you know who else's life was ruined? Michael Brown's. His life is literally over because of this ****head. I do not feel sorry for Darren Wilson


----------



## oath2order

oranje said:


> So could a number of other things (accidents, weather, ect). So just as long as no one was harmed in the protests, I don't see why an hour of being late to work/school is a big deal. Just document what happened and show it to your professor/boss to show that it wasn't your fault for being late.



good point. Just print out the news article and say "these ****s blocked the subway."


----------



## tobi!

LaceGloves said:


> I believe the looting is unnecessary, but there have been many more peaceful protests in comparison
> We all know that protests eventually bring change.



Occupy Wall Street?

Writer's Strike?


----------



## Goth

>thinks protests bring change

what kind of world do you live in

I want to move there


----------



## LaceGloves

Apple2012 said:


> But there are some who hated him so much to the point that he quits. He might be afraid of people he doesn't know.
> 
> Stuff like the Trayvon Martin incident and Michael Brown incident should be left out of the national news and should be left with the local news.



I do not agree. This brought awareness to how often this happens. Some police officers abuse their powers. 
He should've thought about his social life before killing a teenager.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Norski said:


> Occupy Wall Street?
> 
> Writer's Strike?



Sarcasm my dear. Sarcasm.


----------



## tobi!

LaceGloves said:


> I do not agree. This brought awareness to how often this happens. Some police officers abuse their powers.
> He should've thought about his social life before killing a teenager.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> 
> 
> Sarcasm my dear. Sarcasm.



Where do I buy this..."sarcasm"? Is it gluten free?


----------



## LaceGloves

Norski said:


> Where do I buy this..."sarcasm"? Is it gluten free?



Yes it is. c:


----------



## Alolan_Apples

Norski said:


> Where do I buy this..."sarcasm"? Is it gluten free?



Why do you care? The dangers like in South Park won't happen.


----------



## CookingOkasan

GaMERCaT said:


> >thinks protests bring change
> 
> what kind of world do you live in
> 
> I want to move there



Look at the progress we've made for LGBTQIA rights, women suffrage, african american suffrage, ending of slavery, etc. 
literally all of these things and more are direct results of protesting against a sea of opposition.


----------



## Amissapanda

LaceGloves said:


> I do not agree. This brought awareness to how often this happens. Some police officers abuse their powers.
> He should've thought about his social life before killing a teenager.



Yes, awareness is important. I'm glad they made it national news. People _should_ be aware of what is going on in this country. If we start turning a blind eye to these tragedies, only more and and more of them will occur.

Also, regarding Wilson living in "fear"----that is pretty much how a lot of black people in the USA have to live _every day of their lives_. And as was already mentioned, he made a ton of money from donations and even enjoyed a paid vacation. Michael Brown is dead and his family cannot even get peace of mind or justice for the death of their son. There isn't even a comparison here.


----------



## LaceGloves

CookingOkasan said:


> Look at the progress we've made for LGBTQIA rights, women suffrage, african american suffrage, ending of slavery, etc.
> literally all of these things and more are direct results of protesting against a sea of opposition.



Yes! Exactly! Thank you!
Sadly though, most protests take forever to get anywhere. America is stubborn.


----------



## CookingOkasan

Also Darren Wilson, his KKK affiliates, and all of the racist trash who are coming out of the woodwork to voice their vile toxic hatred being exposed and socially stigmatized is *great*. I hope that more people lose or are forced to leave their jobs for their blatant and vocal racism online.


----------



## Goth

I hate it when people refer usa as america 

what about ****ing Canada?

but some 'right protests don't work when we need them too


----------



## oath2order

LaceGloves said:


> I do not agree. This brought awareness to how often this happens.



And so much has changed because of this awareness. 



CookingOkasan said:


> Also Darren Wilson, his KKK affiliates, and all of the racist trash who are coming out of the woodwork to voice their vile toxic hatred being exposed and socially stigmatized is *great*. I hope that more people lose or are forced to leave their jobs for their blatant and vocal racism online.



So then, you think people who think a certain way shouldn't have a job then?


----------



## Alolan_Apples

I wish the KKK can leave America for good. Whoever founded them after the Civil War made a huge mistake. I'm already sick of them.


----------



## LaceGloves

oath2order said:


> And so much has changed because of this awareness.



Yes, a lot has changed. If you compare it to the MLK movement though, not much is different.
USA wouldn't be as developed as it is today without MLK and his peaceful protests. (Fun fact: There was also looting and police violence during that time.)


----------



## CookingOkasan

Apple2012 said:


> I wish the KKK can leave America for good. Whoever founded them after the Civil War made a huge mistake. I'm already sick of them.



There we go, there's something we agree on.



oath2order said:


> So then, you think people who think a certain way shouldn't have a job then?



bluntly, yes.


----------



## Alolan_Apples

CookingOkasan said:


> There we go, there's something we agree on.



I never liked the KKK to even begin with. They caused so much damage to African Americans throughout the entire time since the Reconstruction Era. And idolizing the KKK isn't even funny.


----------



## CookingOkasan

Apple2012 said:


> I never liked the KKK to even begin with. They caused so much damage to African Americans throughout the entire time since the Reconstruction Era. And idolizing the KKK isn't even funny.



Exactly. There out there right now. Publicly. in 2014. They're behind a large portion of the fundings that Darren Wilson received and are continuing to publicly raise money for this "hero".

There's alleged evidence tying Wilson directly to the KKK, but that's alleged. (although being a KKK sympathizer and affiliating with their kind is enough for me to consider you an active member...)


----------



## wintersoldier

Apple2012 said:


> Some people who had their lives ruined chose to let their lives be ruined. Other people who had their lives ruined had theirs ruined by another person or society. I felt that Wilson was part of the latter.



didn't you say that the true "bad guy" in this situation were the supporters of mike brown? like honestly, i'm sure darren wilson can sleep soundly at night with the money he pocketed from mike brown's murder. but you know, i guess that really isn't the point. i mean i don't really expect much when you kept painting yourself as a victim yesterday, asking why is it humane to hate wilson supporters when you're doing the same thing by demonizing supporters of mike brown and adding people to your ignore list for disagreeing with your opinion.

i can't say that i hate wilson supporters. i'm not going to vehemently attack you for disagreeing with your opinion. i'm not going to belittle you or anything, but i just don't really feel anything towards supporters of darren wilson. i feel numb thinking that people think it's okay to rationalize mike brown's death by painting him as a thug or a criminal. even if he wasn't meek or shy, even if he wasn't going to college i would like to imagine that most people would agree that he deserved to live. but i suppose it's easy to desensitize yourself from the situation by telling yourself that it's ok, he deserved to die for being this or that.


----------



## Jawile

The officer is definitely guilty, but I don't see how rioting will help.


----------



## Amissapanda

wintersoldier said:


> didn't you say that the true "bad guy" in this situation were the supporters of mike brown? like honestly, i'm sure darren wilson can sleep soundly at night with the money he pocketed from mike brown's murder. but you know, i guess that really isn't the point. i mean i don't really expect much when you kept painting yourself as a victim yesterday, asking why is it humane to hate wilson supporters when you're doing the same thing by demonizing supporters of mike brown and adding people to your ignore list for disagreeing with your opinion.
> 
> i can't say that i hate wilson supporters. i'm not going to vehemently attack you for disagreeing with your opinion. i'm not going to belittle you or anything, but i just don't really feel anything towards supporters of darren wilson. i feel numb thinking that people think it's okay to rationalize mike brown's death by painting him as a thug or a criminal. even if he wasn't meek or shy, even if he wasn't going to college i would like to imagine that most people would agree that he deserved to live. but i suppose it's easy to desensitize yourself from the situation by telling yourself that it's ok, he deserved to die for being this or that.



I feel the same. I respect other people's opinions and it's certainly not worth anything to try to hate on someone for what they believe, even if it conflicts with your beliefs. That's on the same level as judging someone based on their religion.


----------



## MozzarellaSticks

Darren Wilson did not get his life ruined, he took a life. That is a whole family ruined.


----------



## LaceGloves

Amissapanda said:


> I feel the same. I respect other people's opinions and it's certainly not worth anything to try to hate on someone for what they believe, even if it conflicts with your beliefs. That's on the same level as judging someone based on their religion.



I love you. Marry me. *.*
Nah, just kidding. I agree with you though.


----------



## Alolan_Apples

wintersoldier said:


> didn't you say that the true "bad guy" in this situation were the supporters of mike brown? like honestly, i'm sure darren wilson can sleep soundly at night with the money he pocketed from mike brown's murder. but you know, i guess that really isn't the point. i mean i don't really expect much when you kept painting yourself as a victim yesterday, asking why is it humane to hate wilson supporters when you're doing the same thing by demonizing supporters of mike brown and adding people to your ignore list for disagreeing with your opinion.
> 
> i can't say that i hate wilson supporters. i'm not going to vehemently attack you for disagreeing with your opinion. i'm not going to belittle you or anything, but i just don't really feel anything towards supporters of darren wilson. i feel numb thinking that people think it's okay to rationalize mike brown's death by painting him as a thug or a criminal. even if he wasn't meek or shy, even if he wasn't going to college i would like to imagine that most people would agree that he deserved to live. but i suppose it's easy to desensitize yourself from the situation by telling yourself that it's ok, he deserved to die for being this or that.



I didn't block everybody who supported Michael Brown. The ones I blocked were the ones who were both strong about it and argued hard against me over the incident. The thing here is not that they think Wilson is guilty. You haven't got annoying about it yet.

By the way, I like your avatar.


----------



## radical6

In what world do you feel sympathy because social media "ruined" his life. Are you kidding me. Michael Browns life was ruined. His family will never be the same now. Im glad Wilson is terrified for his life. Do you feel sympathy for Casey Anthony too? I mean, her life is ruined too. They are murderers. If they will not be punished by the law, then they can be punished by their fear and guilt.


----------



## wintersoldier

Amissapanda said:


> I feel the same. I respect other people's opinions and it's certainly not worth anything to try to hate on someone for what they believe, even if it conflicts with your beliefs. That's on the same level as judging someone based on their religion.



i do agree with you that you should respect other people's opinions, but at the same time you do have the right to criticize another person's opinion if it is harmful or toxic. i was actually reading this thread for a long time before deciding to speak, because i just couldn't handle the way some users were vilifying mike brown. this isn't towards apple2012 (if you're reading this) but towards other users who have used words to describe him in a dehumanizing manner. i just don't think it's right to stand idle and watch people make excuses for his death, but nevertheless you're right and we should try to remain as civil as possible when talking to people we disagree with. although, i do want to state that i don't blame other people who are angry (especially regarding this specific topic.)



Apple2012 said:


> I didn't block everybody who supported Michael Brown. The ones I blocked were the ones who were both strong about it and argued hard against me over the incident. The thing here is not that they think Wilson is guilty. You haven't got annoying about it yet.
> 
> By the way, I like your avatar.



i'm sorry. it was just the way you had worded it that made it seem like you were against all supporters of mike brown. while i will state that i have a very, very strong opinion about darren wilson... it's not my place to convince you otherwise. you do have the right to an opinion, but at the same time people do have a reason to be angry about this specific case. while this is about mike brown, people are also voicing that black lives matter and that we shouldn't be silent regarding the countless black men and women who have lost their lives due to police brutality. i hope that wasn't too annoying to read, i know you might disagree with me but i just had to state that.

thank you though for your compliment regarding my icon, i appreciate it. (you do have nice qr codes btw) i don't want you to feel alienated or ashamed, but at the same time i want you to understand why people react in the manner that they do. they shouldn't attack you for your views (as long as you're not being harmful), but someone strongly voicing their opinion isn't an attack i think. people are angry for a reason, they're tired of being silenced. of course name calling isn't right, but yeah.


----------



## puppy

yeah him killing a mike brown made him a _millionare_. he got rewarded basically.

also i thought tumblr getting racists fired was beautiful. ive read through every "they just have a different opinion than u" and i just cant bring myself to feel bad. racism isnt an opinion i can respect if it can even be called an opinion. idc if it seems petty or w/e because ive had to put up with people like  that my entire life and was expected never to do anything about it.


----------



## oath2order

puppy said:


> yeah him killing a mike brown made him a _millionare_. he got rewarded basically.
> 
> also i thought tumblr getting racists fired was beautiful. ive read through every "they just have a different opinion than u" and i just cant bring myself to feel bad. racism isnt an opinion i can respect if it can even be called an opinion. idc if it seems petty or w/e because ive had to put up with people like  that my entire life and was expected never to do anything about it.



So then you'd be in favor of people getting fired for not believing certain religion? It's their opinion and their belief.


----------



## puppy

oath2order said:


> So then you'd be in favor of people getting fired for not believing certain religion? It's their opinion and their belief.


no. atm im not referring to any wider issues ty. this is where i stand on racism.


----------



## wintersoldier

i believe what puppy is trying to is that if you hold harmful views, you should be reprimanded for them. freedom of religion is NOTHING LIKE racism and they are incomparable. if you do have racist views, i would imagine you would keep them to yourself or to the privacy of friends and not boast on social media that you're glad ferguson is burning or that mike brown deserved to die for being a well you know, the n word. when you're working for a company, you represent them as a whole. you have to act professional, and racism is far from it. 

you have do have a right to have an opinion- to hold certain views... but you should be held accountable for your actions. if your information is wide spread on social media, then someone does have the right to call your job and complain about the views you hold bc it's harmful to both the consumer and the company.


----------



## oath2order

wintersoldier said:


> i believe what puppy is trying to is that if you hold harmful views, you should be reprimanded for them. freedom of religion is NOTHING LIKE racism and they are incomparable. if you do have racist views, i would imagine you would keep them to yourself or to the privacy of friends and not boast on social media that you're glad ferguson is burning or that mike brown deserved to die for being a well you know, the n word. when you're working for a company, you represent them as a whole. you have to act professional, and racism is far from it.
> 
> you have do have a right to have an opinion- to hold certain views... but you should be held accountable for your actions. if your information is wide spread on social media, then someone does have the right to call your job and complain about the views you hold bc it's harmful to both the consumer and the company.



So basically, what I'm getting from you, is that if you think the wrong way, you're not allowed to have a job.


----------



## radical6

oath2order said:


> So basically, what I'm getting from you, is that if you think the wrong way, you're not allowed to have a job.



thats their own fault for posting it. companies dont want a bad rep. if one of their workers is a racist bigot, then people are likely to stop shopping there. besides, some companies monitor your social media anyway lmao. it teaches them a lesson. mostly happens to teens and young adults from what ive seen however


----------



## Marmoset

Racist ideology is dangerous and should never be justified with that whole "freedom of belief" speech. Allowing people to hold these ideas can essentially lead to the support of racism.

"Freedom" is limited, for a good reason. Let us remember the eugenics movement, WW2, slavery. All of these things began with dangerous ideas. You may think "well they can think these things so long as it doesnt hurt anyone" but as SOON as you allow these things to pass through the process of hurt begins on an emotional level and will escalate to something so much more dangerous.

So yes, of course someone should be fired if they hold racist ideology and should be punished publically. Why? Imagine how much worse things could get if it were to continue.

Dangerous ideas can lead to dangerous actions.


----------



## Angelmarina

I'm honestly just tired of people claiming its racial discrimination. Crimes like these happen everyday with people of all races and they don't make the news. Thats all I'm saying, and I'm also tired of the fact that when cases like these make the news everyone on my facebook, twitter, and etc. suddenly become lawyers. Like really? I'm a criminology major right now, and its really interesting looking at who and what people blame for cases like Ferguson, because most of the time its speculation. Also just a note, I'm not racist, my adopted mom actually knows Trayvon Martin's family, so I have seen both sides of cases like these, I just think they shouldn't be the only ones that people blow up and protest about.


----------



## wintersoldier

oath2order said:


> So basically, what I'm getting from you, is that if you think the wrong way, you're not allowed to have a job.



ok that's not what i said. i honestly don't care if your views are different from mine, but when you say harmful, toxic things you should be punished for your actions. consumers do have the right to not eat at a certain restaurants or shop at a store if they know the company is willfully employing someone without giving them consequences for their actions. you have the right to an opinion, but you deserve to be reprimanded if what you say is harmful (i know i keep using this word, but honestly.) 

a racist opinion is not the same as freedom of religion, or comparable to someone's religious beliefs.


----------



## oath2order

justice said:


> thats their own fault for posting it. companies dont want a bad rep. if one of their workers is a racist bigot, then people are likely to stop shopping there. besides, some companies monitor your social media anyway lmao. it teaches them a lesson. mostly happens to teens and young adults from what ive seen however



Okay so the thought police is active then.

Don't think the wrong way or you deserve to be fired.


----------



## Marmoset

More like don't be a racist. There is a huge difference in thinking peanuts are nasty versus thinking one race is inferior to another. Because guess what? One potentially leads to situations we have seen throughout history that cause millions to be murdered. The other leads to you not eating peanuts.

Freedom of belief is not what you think it is.


----------



## oath2order

Marmoset said:


> More like don't be a racist. There is a huge difference in thinking peanuts are nasty versus thinking one race is inferior to another. Because guess what? One potentially leads to situations we have seen throughout history that cause millions to be murdered. The other leads to you not eating peanuts.
> 
> Freedom of belief is not what you think it is.



Yes it is. You have every right to believe whatever the hell you want and you really shouldn't be fired for it unless you act on said beliefs in a way that harms others. If you're simply thinking "I don't like black people", then why should you be fired for that if you don't act on it?

I'd consider it similar to firing someone over their political beliefs.


----------



## wintersoldier

Angelmarina said:


> I'm honestly just tired of people claiming its racial discrimination. Crimes like these happen everyday with people of all races and they don't make the news. Thats all I'm saying, and I'm also tired of the fact that when cases like these make the news everyone on my facebook, twitter, and etc. suddenly become lawyers. Like really? I'm a criminology major right now, and its really interesting looking at who and what people blame for cases like Ferguson, because most of the time its speculation. Also just a note, I'm not racist, my adopted mom actually knows Trayvon Martin's family, so I have seen both sides of cases like these, I just think they shouldn't be the only ones that people blow up and protest about.



lol ok you know i've tried to stay calm in this thread but i can't when you say it's not about race. it is about race, of course it's about race. people have tried to excuse mike brown's death by painting him as a thug, a thief, a criminal. the word thug is used to dehumanize black men, it's just another synonym for the n word. you honestly can't tell me it's not about race.

i don't know why you bother pointing out other cases that happen each and every day. i honestly don't understand why people do that? can we not focus on one thing at a time? just because people are protesting for mike brown, doesn't mean there's no concern for other people who have lost their lives to police brutality. 

honestly, i want to remain civil with you... but i'm just tired of this whole debate about it not being about race when it clearly is. if it's not about race, then the media wouldn't turn brown into a caricature- as if he wasn't worth anything. it is about race, this case is about race. i don't even know why you had to specify that you're not racist, i doubt anyone was going to accuse you, but ok.


----------



## Marmoset

@Oath: You desperately need to brush up on your history and question your own views if you really think this way. Dangerous thoughts can lead to dangerous actions as I said before. Do they all do?No. But passing this down to future generations is horrifying. Question yourself sometime.


----------



## oath2order

Marmoset said:


> @Oath: You desperately need to brush up on your history and question your own views if you really think this way. Dangerous thoughts can lead to dangerous actions as I said before. Do they all do?No. But passing this down to future generations is horrifying. Question yourself sometime.



You know what else is dangerous? Hiring and firing over what people believe and think.


----------



## Marmoset

Firing or potential ideology that could lead to the death of millions.... hm..... and firing is worse?

Here's a thought: dont be racist, and then you get to keep your job and no one is senslessly killed. Everyone wins!


----------



## oath2order

Marmoset said:


> Firing or potential ideology that could lead to the death of millions.... hm..... and firing is worse?



Let me ask a few questions.

Do you support companies hiring and firing over what people believe? Please answer this with a simple yes or no.

Do you think that anybody who is racist but *doesn't act on their racist thoughts*, should be fired and deserves to not be hired?


----------



## Marmoset

If it involves racist ideology then yes. They should be reprimanded. Doesn't matter if they act on it or not. When they pass this type of thing doen to future generations history repeats itself. 

Seriously. History. It is important. You are ignoring it in your argument and it honestly needs to be addressed.

I dont know if this is true but right now you sound like you support racist ideology...

Think about what you say and allow others to do. Have a good night.


----------



## Angelmarina

wintersoldier said:


> lol ok you know i've tried to stay calm in this thread but i can't when you say it's not about race. it is about race, of course it's about race. people have tried to excuse mike brown's death by painting him as a thug, a thief, a criminal. the word thug is used to dehumanize black men, it's just another synonym for the n word. you honestly can't tell me it's not about race.
> 
> i don't know why you bother pointing out other cases that happen each and every day. i honestly don't understand why people do that? can we not focus on one thing at a time? just because people are protesting for mike brown, doesn't mean there's no concern for other people who have lost their lives to police brutality.
> 
> honestly, i want to remain civil with you... but i'm just tired of this whole debate about it not being about race when it clearly is. if it's not about race, then the media wouldn't turn brown into a caricature- as if he wasn't worth anything. it is about race, this case is about race. i don't even know why you had to specify that you're not racist, i doubt anyone was going to accuse you, but ok.



It's about race because we make it to be, we make stereotypes, we call people names like thug, thief, cracker, the n word, yellow, and  red neck. These are terms WE have made, and WE classify people like this. I never said that it was right with how they 'painted' him to be but you have to understand, the media does this to people and thats why other cases are so important! The media turns the innocent into monsters because for them they get paid to make up people's minds for them. Also, it's the prosecutions job to do the same. Honestly, I am sure that Michael Brown was a good person who was put into a stereotype, but you can't attack me because of my opinion. I just don't think the case should be about race. Cops are trained to shoot when their life is in danger, I'm not saying he was right to shoot in the situation, and I'm not justifying his actions but the cops have been there for weeks now trying to stop the rioting and calm down the citizens, thats extreme stressful, feel free to disagree though.

Also, the n word and criminal are not the same thing! People are criminals but they are not always the n word and if the n word is a touchy subject then it shouldn't be used at all, but the plain fact it that there are older generations that stick higher to their beliefs and some of them are racist, it's why we call people what we do, thats where most of the stereotypes originate and they teach that to their kids. I'm just tired of everything being racial, it's only when race is a huge thing in the case that it becomes this big.

I specified just in case someone did try to make that claim. And I am being civil, you can't fight with someone on their opinions or beliefs, we have them for a reason, and the odds of them changing are slim. Just agree to disagree.


----------



## oath2order

See, the thing about your argument is that once you open the gates to hiring and firing for one type of belief, then it is absolutely hypocritical to say that you can't hire or fire someone for something you support.

Let's say someone was fired for being in support of homosexuality. I can assume you wouldn't be in support of that. Homophobia is major problem, just like racism.

I'm sorry, the way I see it, is that you can either have it so that companies are allowed to hire and fire based on beliefs or you can't.


----------



## Angelmarina

oath2order said:


> See, the thing about your argument is that once you open the gates to hiring and firing for one type of belief, then it is absolutely hypocritical to say that you can't hire or fire someone for something you support.
> 
> Let's say someone was fired for being in support of homosexuality. I can assume you wouldn't be in support of that. Homophobia is major problem, just like racism.
> 
> I'm sorry, the way I see it, is that you can either have it so that companies are allowed to hire and fire based on beliefs or you can't.



But in some states you can get fired if your boss finds out you are homosexual, that or if you are homosexual and are getting married. I actually talked to a representative in an organization that is fighting for their rights, and sadly their companies can fire them in certain states.


----------



## Marmoset

Racist ideology and disliking a genre of music are two different things. Why?

You seem to think that people can be fired for thinking things that are not dangerous. Firing isnt a black and white issue and you arent fired over anything and everything. You cant't be fired just for liking puppies.

How can supporting homosexuality lead to the death of MILLIONS like racist ideology has done in the past and is pccuring today (ex: third world countries).

The world isnt black and white like you thinkit is in terms of these problems.


----------



## oath2order

Marmoset said:


> Racist ideology and disliking a genre of music are two different things. Why?
> 
> You seem to think that people can be fired for thinking thigs that are not dangerous.
> 
> How can supporting homosexuality lead to the death of MILLIONS like racist ideology has done in the past and is pccuring today (ex: third world countries).
> 
> The world isnt black and white like you thinkit is.



You're missing the point.

What I'm trying to say is that you're trying to push YOUR ideology onto what companies should choose to hire and fire people over for thinking. You're trying to say "You can fire people for thinking this" but then when presented with an alternative, your mindset has become "Well you can't fire them for thinking that."

Where did the music thing come from. That's unrelated to anything you and I were saying.

Stick to discussing in the U.S., not third world countries, please. That's what this entire debate is about, the culture of the U.S. and not third world countries.



Marmoset said:


> I dont know if this is true but right now you sound like you support racist ideology...
> 
> Think about what you say and allow others to do. Have a good night.



No, I don't. I support people being free to think what they want and not have to face repercussions for thinking the wrong way.


----------



## radical6

So if a worker wrote "ching chong" on a receipt for someone, they don't deserve to get fired? (has happened many times) Or if they bragged on social media about it, and said they hated asian people so much! Or what if they were mocking black people? No one knows their racist "beliefs" until they say it out loud. How is this any different to what people post online? Think twice before posting. No one ****ing fires them until they give the company a bad name. Companies don't want racists, because less shoppers. The difference between this and being fired for not being racist is that...not being racist to customers isn't actually illegal. Pretty sure discriminating based off of race, gender or sexuality in workplace is illegal. And if they do this in their free time? What if people hear about it? Companies have been sued millions because of their workers. It makes sense why they want them out. If they boast about it online, how likely are they to be racist to their own customers?

I have no idea how it got to this topic, but I could give less ****s about them losing their jobs. Boo ****ing hoo. You say something racist and expect to get away with it? Kiss your job goodbye.


----------



## Marmoset

Ideology is more complex than you think it is. Freedom and ideas aren't what you think it is. For a good reason. I can only imagine what kind of things would happen in your world. Not all ideology is the same and is embraced. There are no dichotomies like you think there is. Perhaps more experiences can remedy this.

Your world view is much too simplistic. You need to consider the true definitions of these things for the sake of lives. You also need to pick up a history book sometime. The world doesnt work the way it does for a reason, and history time and time again will show you WHY society has taboos, WHY some ideas are more dangerous than others. Your thoughts can promote actions, good or bad. Your voice has meaning, so think about why these things are in place.

I seriously need to leave for tonight. But I hope one day you look back on your ideas and reflect and learn something.


P.S. history.


----------



## oath2order

justice said:


> So if a worker wrote "ching chong" on a receipt for someone, they don't deserve to get fired? (has happened many times) Or if they bragged on social media about it, and said they hated asian people so much! Or what if they were mocking black people? No one knows their racist "beliefs" until they say it out loud. How is this any different to what people post online? Think twice before posting. No one ****ing fires them until they give the company a bad name. Companies don't want racists, because less shoppers. The difference between this and being fired for not being racist is that...not being racist to customers isn't actually illegal. Pretty sure discriminating based off of race, gender or sexuality in workplace is illegal. And if they do this in their free time? What if people hear about it? Companies have been sued millions because of their workers. It makes sense why they want them out. If they boast about it online, how likely are they to be racist to their own customers?
> 
> I have no idea how it got to this topic, but I could give less ****s about them losing their jobs. Boo ****ing hoo. You say something racist and expect to get away with it? Kiss your job goodbye.



Remember when I said "as long as they don't act on it" Do you remember that.

Welp I'm done here. The thought police have clearly taken over.


----------



## radical6

oath2order said:


> Remember when I said "as long as they don't act on it" Do you remember that.
> 
> Welp I'm done here. The thought police have clearly taken over.



If they post it online, then they'll face the consequences. People should think twice before posting **** online. It's pretty simple. Doesn't matter if you don't act on it. If people know there's like a literal nazi in a company, then they're not going to go there. Then what happens? Their profits hurt. Or in case of big companies, if just one or two workers are racist to people the company can get sued for millions. If companies wish to prevent lawsuits, their best risks are to cut people who are more likely to act on that thinking. Really simple.


----------



## Toffee

Personally, I feel a police officer shot a teenager/young adult simply because he was an African American. There have been plenty of talks about how Mike Brown had to of had his hands up in surrender, how the witness chosen as the "most reliable" wasn't _actually_ the most reliable, and I heard the prosecuting attorney was actually on the board of directors that helped raise $400 thousand for Wilson (source got removed, as many sites are removing ferguson posts currently), yet many people are still up in arms or simply lack care about the issue completely.

I can't possibly fathom that people are actually defending Wilson's actions. Even if you believe he's completely innocent and that Mike Brown charged him, how can you truly feel that a full grown, 6ft tall, trained officer equipped with a gun, couldn't take down a charging 6'5" man, without any form of weapon, from over 35 feet away? Even if you wanna go as far as "he couldn't take him down, Mike Brown was taller, younger, and stronger", are you seriously going to tell me that an officer trained for this kind of situation couldn't possibly of shot him _once_, in a nonlethal area of the body?

I just..don't understand. A young man was simply walking down the street and he got brutally murdered by the same people who hide behind the slogan of "to protect and to serve" (which really is just a slogan, btw, legally police officers have "no specific legal duty to provide protection ")  And the repercussions? An ex-police officer walks away one million dollars richer and with no jail time. And yet when an African American man supposedly kills a police dog he's threatened with 35 yrs.

As for all these people talking about the riots and tearing the people in them down, these are two completely different issues. One is the issue of did a police officer kill a young man over nothing more than prejudice, and the other is between people who feel genuinely unsafe by the law and want to riot to protest it. Simply put, one is between a police officer and the family of the boy he killed, and one is between a country and it's citizens. Defending the cop just because riots are getting out of hand makes absolutely no sense. The family of Mike Brown isn't even asking the rioters to be violent in any way. The mother said she "wanted the riots to not make noise, but make change". These are people acting entirely independently because they feel cheated and unsafe from this decision. 

Don't get me wrong, _I'm not condoning the rioter's violence in any way_; however, some perspective is needed here. Everyone is so up in arms over the burning of buildings. If you're that upset about the ferguson riots burning buildings down, then you probably were really mad with these violent riots too, right? Like when a football team lost in Denver 2014, when a baseball team won in San Francisco 2012  , when a basketball team won a game in Lexington, 2014, or maybe when a hockey team lost in Vancouver. _These were sports riots, they were not riots about the overall safety of an entire country's law system. _Why are these riots being looked down upon any more than any of those riots? Furthermore, some people are also mad about the burning of the flag. Let's not forget though, that technically there is nothing illegal about burning the flag (it's only "unconstitutional"), but malpractice is also considered unconstitutional. Murder, on the other hand, is illegal, something many of the people complaining about the flags that were burnt seem to ignore.

Let's also not forget that the police are sending _way more officers than the number of rioters_, teargassing many of them which are not doing anything violent, many of which are just resting on the ground. Let's not forget that when a woman had a heart attack and rioters asked the police to assist her, that they'd back off and leave her on the ground, the police responded by teargassing the crowd back.

Bleh this turned into a huge, link heavy post. I've just had this really built up in me ever since the verdict and had to get it out somewhere. Feels good to get it out, though.


----------



## LambdaDelta

oath2order said:


> So then you'd be in favor of people getting fired for not believing certain religion? It's their opinion and their belief.



This is a poor comparison.

Racism has actively lead to ruin plenty of people's lives. Which while religion can do this as well, its generally only due to the actions of an extremist minority.


----------



## puppy

im not really looking to play the "if this is allowed then this should be too" game. you could reason plenty of awful things that way. besides, the people that were getting fired did act on it when they posted racist things online. its just a matter of letting their work know its out there where everyone can see. im sure theyd like to know. racism in the workplace is dangerous and businesses know it. it leads to incidents like ferguson. can you imagine a black person's life in the hands of a racist doctor? or, say, a racist police officer in charge of bringing a black person to justice? these people dont think to themselves "i think im going to act on my latent racism now" when they commit malpractice because of it.


----------



## Mercedes

ThePayne22 said:


> I dont care if he's innocent or not tbh. My concern goes towards these awful protesters who are just wrecking all of these businesses and expect no repercussions. Its absolutely sickening.



SOMEONE WHO CARES THE "protesters" ARE COMMON THEIFS AND CRIMANLES NOTHING MORE AND THE OFFCIER DID WHAT HE HAD TO GOD DAMN IT


----------



## Jarrad

Luckypinch said:


> SOMEONE WHO CARES THE "protesters" ARE COMMON THEIFS AND CRIMANLES NOTHING MORE AND THE OFFCIER DID WHAT HE HAD TO GOD DAMN IT



The officer did what he had to do?

So he had to shoot an innocent 18 year old boy *SIX* times for stealing a packet of cigarettes? 
He didn't *HAVE* to use deadly force. That's what this entire Ferguson thing is over. The fact that he brutally shot and killed a young man when there were so many other ways to go about enforcing the law.


----------



## Mercedes

Jarrad said:


> The officer did what he had to do?
> 
> So he had to shoot an innocent 18 year old boy *SIX* times for stealing a packet of cigarettes?
> He didn't *HAVE* to use deadly force. That's what this entire Ferguson thing is over. The fact that he brutally shot and killed a young man when there were so many other ways to go about enforcing the law.


It was his choice. He should not have stolen cigs


----------



## LambdaDelta

nobody's excusing the "protesters" that are just taking advantage of this situation

nor are people excusing Wilson just because of the "protesters"


----------



## Jarrad

Luckypinch said:


> It was his choice. He should not have stolen cigs



No it wasn't his choice...

It was Wilson's choice to use deadly force on such a linear crime. The people that suffer the same punishment as Brown (being shot 6 times, one of which was in the face) are _real_ criminals. The sort of people that brutally murder innocent people, kidnap children, traffic humans etc. In no way does stealing a packet of cigarettes justify being shot SIX times.

Educate yourself please. You can't just say "well he shouldn't have done it, it's his fault"
Brown did something which we wasn't supposed to do. He stole and he resisted police arrest.
Wilson did something which we wasn't supposed to do. He outright murdered a man in cold blood instead of dealing with the situation appropriately. He took advantage of his power as cop. Just because he wears a badge doesn't mean that he's not subject to murdering somebody. _Nobody_ is above the law, regardless whether they enforce it or break it.


----------



## LambdaDelta

Luckypinch said:


> It was his choice. He should not have stolen cigs



too bad there's also been potential evidence shown that he actually paid for them

also stealing should never equal a death sentence, and if you honestly think it does then I seriously hope you never go into any sort of job that requires you to uphold the law


----------



## Jarrad

LambdaDelta said:


> too bad there's also been potential evidence shown that he actually paid for them
> 
> also stealing should never equal a death sentence, and if you honestly think it does then I seriously hope you never go into any sort of job that requires you to uphold the law



It's like she's just been dropped out of the hunger games universe, where holding up a 3-fingered gesture is enough to get you killed.

Apparently stealing cigarettes warrants death.


----------



## LaceGloves

Jarrad said:


> The officer did what he had to do?
> 
> So he had to shoot an innocent 18 year old boy *SIX* times for stealing a packet of cigarettes?
> He didn't *HAVE* to use deadly force. That's what this entire Ferguson thing is over. The fact that he brutally shot and killed a young man when there were so many other ways to go about enforcing the law.



Correction: He was shot 8 times. 
Twice in the head. 
As stated before, a gun should be used to apprehend if necessary, not kill. 

Also, the police officer's story was ridiculous. I will post a link of it later today. It is very unrealistic and he LITERALLY demonizes this 18 year old boy. LITERALLY.


----------



## Zanessa

Luckypinch said:


> It was his choice. He should not have stolen cigs



So if you steal a pack of pencils from a rich person and an officer goes after you and shoots you several times and kills you, is it justified? You stole something from them. You deserve it, right? 

Okay.


----------



## SuperVandal

LaceGloves said:


> Correction: He was shot 8 times.
> Twice in the head.
> As stated before, a gun should be used to apprehend if necessary, not kill.
> 
> Also, the police officer's story was ridiculous. I will post a link of it later today. It is very unrealistic and he LITERALLY demonizes this 18 year old boy. LITERALLY.



yeah, i've seen snippets of his testimony. he literally calls mike brown a demon. like seriously? these are the nutjobs holding positions as law enforcers in our country?


----------



## Aradai

SuperVandal said:


> yeah, i've seen snippets of his testimony. he literally calls mike brown a demon. like seriously? these are the nutjobs holding positions as law enforcers in our country?



he also has the audacity to call Michael Brown, who is a human being like all of us, and "it". Are you serious.


----------



## Alolan_Apples

ZanessaGaily said:


> So if you steal a pack of pencils from a rich person and an officer goes after you and shoots you several times and kills you, is it justified? You stole something from them. You deserve it, right?
> 
> Okay.



Well there's a difference. Brown was trying to put Wilson's life in danger. Like I said several times, what got him killed was that he tried to grab for Wilson's gun. Yes, it's not worth killing people over a pack of cigarettes, but he didn't shoot him all because of stealing. Some of you rejected the fact that Brown was trying to kill Wilson when Wikipedia said that he was, so that's why I blocked some of you. I also blocked everyone who kept asking me to post some sources. I know one of you jumped on me for discriminating against Brown supporters, but I'm not blocking them for supporting Brown. It's all about personal conflict with me, not about opinions.

I found out why Wilson quits. It's not because the media made him look bad. It's that the police department made a whole bunch of enemies because of that one incident, and the chief gave Wilson a warning. So he quits.

Once again, I'm not supporting racism, but I don't think Wilson was a racist. But some of the police brutality issues I've seen are clearly inhumane. But now that Wilson is out of the police force, it's time for him to look for a new job.

I do think OJ Simpson and Casey Anthony are guilty, but I don't think George Zimmerman and Darren Wilson are guilty. Both OJ and Casey were purposely killing someone innocent and hiding the evidence. Zimmerman and Wilson were in presence with a punk. The reason why I made the supporters of Brown and Martin look bad were because they are more extreme when they talk and are even attacking the opponents. I'm not opposing them for supporting someone. It's just like this. You hate one popular movie, but people who like the movie hate you for hating the movie. So you hate the fans of the movie, not because they like the movie, but because they hate people for hating the movie.


----------



## wintersoldier

Apple2012 said:


> Well there's a difference. Brown was trying to put Wilson's life in danger. Like I said several times, what got him killed was that he tried to grab for Wilson's gun. Yes, it's not worth killing people over a pack of cigarettes, but he didn't shoot him all because of stealing. Some of you rejected the fact that Brown was trying to kill Wilson when Wikipedia said that he was, so that's why I blocked some of you. I also blocked everyone who kept asking me to post some sources. I know one of you jumped on me for discriminating against Brown supporters, but I'm not blocking them for supporting Brown. It's all about personal conflict with me, not about opinions.
> 
> I found out why Wilson quits. It's not because the media made him look bad. It's that the police department made a whole bunch of enemies because of that one incident, and the chief gave Wilson a warning. So he quits.
> 
> Once again, I'm not supporting racism, but I don't think Wilson was a racist. But some of the police brutality issues I've seen are clearly inhumane. But now that Wilson is out of the police force, it's time for him to look for a new job.
> 
> I do think OJ Simpson and Casey Anthony are guilty, but I don't think George Zimmerman and Darren Wilson are guilty. Both OJ and Casey were purposely killing someone innocent and hiding the evidence. Zimmerman and Wilson were in presence with a punk. The reason why I made the supporters of Brown and Martin look bad were because they are more extreme when they talk and are even attacking the opponents. I'm not opposing them for supporting someone. It's just like this. You hate one popular movie, but people who like the movie hate you for hating the movie. So you hate the fans of the movie, not because they like the movie, but because they hate people for hating the movie.



lmao if you're referring to me, i didn't jump on you for your ignoring spree. i just found it hypocritical that you kept painting yourself as a victim in this situation for supporting darren wilson when you were throwing supporters of mike brown under the bus. i'm pretty sure wikipedia isn't a source, but i'm not going to tell you to cite things as an attempt to prove your point bc that's a waste of time for you and me since my views regarding wilson aren't going to change. 

i see you tho. you previously stated that zimmerman was worse than wilson, but now trayvon and mike are both punks that deserve to die. it's very transparent that you would even call them punks, but i guess the demonizing of black men continues even though we talked about how harmful it is. but i suppose you can keep justifying mike brown's death by saying he grabbed wilson's gun and that he was a punk who deserved to die. 

perhaps maybe some people were extreme towards you with their views, but you have to understand why they were angry. this case is about mike brown, but it's also about the countless black men and women who've died because of police brutality. i've tried to be respectful to you as much as i can be in this, but the victim here is not darren wilson nor his supporters. he has profited off of mike brown's murder. he gets to go home to his family, he can eventually put this incident aside. i'm sure he can sleep soundly at night, so there's no reason for you to paint him or his supporters as victims in this situation.


----------



## LambdaDelta

Apple2012 said:


> Some of you rejected the fact that Brown was trying to kill Wilson *when Wikipedia said that he was*



the exact moment your entire argument crumbled apart


----------



## f11

Apple2012 said:


> Well there's a difference. Brown was trying to put Wilson's life in danger. Like I said several times, what got him killed was that he tried to grab for Wilson's gun. Yes, it's not worth killing people over a pack of cigarettes, but he didn't shoot him all because of stealing. Some of you rejected the fact that Brown was trying to kill Wilson when Wikipedia said that he was, so that's why I blocked some of you. I also blocked everyone who kept asking me to post some sources. I know one of you jumped on me for discriminating against Brown supporters, but I'm not blocking them for supporting Brown. It's all about personal conflict with me, not about opinions.
> 
> I found out why Wilson quits. It's not because the media made him look bad. It's that the police department made a whole bunch of enemies because of that one incident, and the chief gave Wilson a warning. So he quits.
> 
> Once again, I'm not supporting racism, but I don't think Wilson was a racist. But some of the police brutality issues I've seen are clearly inhumane. But now that Wilson is out of the police force, it's time for him to look for a new job.
> 
> I do think OJ Simpson and Casey Anthony are guilty, but I don't think George Zimmerman and Darren Wilson are guilty. Both OJ and Casey were purposely killing someone innocent and hiding the evidence. Zimmerman and Wilson were in presence with a punk. The reason why I made the supporters of Brown and Martin look bad were because they are more extreme when they talk and are even attacking the opponents. I'm not opposing them for supporting someone. It's just like this. You hate one popular movie, but people who like the movie hate you for hating the movie. So you hate the fans of the movie, not because they like the movie, but because they hate people for hating the movie.


lol who trusts wikipedia. There was witnesses who say he didnt go for the gun. There is so much evidence that he didnt. Second, if he did why was the gun not tested for brown's fingerprints?


----------



## unintentional

Apple2012 said:


> Well there's a difference. Brown was trying to put Wilson's life in danger. Like I said several times, what got him killed was that he tried to grab for Wilson's gun. Yes, it's not worth killing people over a pack of cigarettes, but he didn't shoot him all because of stealing. Some of you rejected the fact that Brown was trying to kill Wilson when *Wikipedia* said that he was, so that's why I blocked some of you. I also blocked everyone who kept asking me to post some sources. I know one of you jumped on me for discriminating against Brown supporters, but I'm not blocking them for supporting Brown. It's all about personal conflict with me, not about opinions.
> .



You just cited Wiki.  I just, please stop.  Why block someone for trying to hear your sources?  You should be able to supply them if you truly believe in something.


----------



## Zanessa

Apple2012 said:


> Well there's a difference. Brown was trying to put Wilson's life in danger. Like I said several times, what got him killed was that he tried to grab for Wilson's gun.



WHERE IS THE FINGERPRINT EVIDENCE
STOP USING THIS ARGUMENT
HE DID NOT GRAB THE GUN 
THERE IS NO PROOF THAT HE DID.
NONE.


----------



## unintentional

ZanessaGaily said:


> WHERE IS THE FINGERPRINT EVIDENCE
> STOP USING THIS ARGUMENT
> HE DID NOT GRAB THE GUN
> THERE IS NO PROOF THAT HE DID.
> NONE.



Or if Apple will use that argument, at least back it up with sources (not wiki)


----------



## Alolan_Apples

wintersoldier said:


> lmao if you're referring to me, i didn't jump on you for your ignoring spree. i just found it hypocritical that you kept painting yourself as a victim in this situation for supporting darren wilson when you were throwing supporters of mike brown under the bus. i'm pretty sure wikipedia isn't a source, but i'm not going to tell you to cite things as an attempt to prove your point bc that's a waste of time for you and me since my views regarding wilson aren't going to change.
> 
> i see you tho. you previously stated that zimmerman was worse than wilson, but now trayvon and mike are both punks that deserve to die. it's very transparent that you would even call them punks, but i guess the demonizing of black men continues even though we talked about how harmful it is. but i suppose you can keep justifying mike brown's death by saying he grabbed wilson's gun and that he was a punk who deserved to die.
> 
> perhaps maybe some people were extreme towards you with their views, but you have to understand why they were angry. this case is about mike brown, but it's also about the countless black men and women who've died because of police brutality. i've tried to be respectful to you as much as i can be in this, but the victim here is not darren wilson nor his supporters. he has profited off of mike brown's murder. he gets to go home to his family, he can eventually put this incident aside. i'm sure he can sleep soundly at night, so there's no reason for you to paint him or his supporters as victims in this situation.



The reason why I said that Zimmerman was worse was because both Martin and Zimmerman were punks. One night, they were looking for trouble. Well, they got trouble. I don't anybody except for the most heinous people deserved to die. Martin, Zimmerman, Brown, and Wilson, they're not even up there yet. Child abusers, animal abusers, ISIS, and Osama bin Laden already crossed that line. Yes, I know that I have been acting rude by painting wilson's supporters as victims and brown's supporters as bad guys, but I am trying to both express my opinions and defend myself. You can believe that Wilson is guilty. I agree that black people deserve citizenship rights. I agree that police brutality has got to stop. But I don't like people who were extreme towards me.

I should go back to being off this thread again.


----------



## LambdaDelta

even if Brown did try to grab Wilson's gun

you know

the tazer

that Wilson didn't have because "muh comfort"


also, not to mention I'm pretty sure that officers are meant to be able to engage with violent personal without the need of weapons to a degree. especially in cases where the dangerous individual is unarmed


----------



## Zanessa

Saint_Jimmy said:


> Or if Apple will use that argument, at least back it up with sources (not wiki)



Not just one source, either. Multiple sources.


----------



## LaceGloves

Aradai said:


> he also has the audacity to call Michael Brown, who is a human being like all of us, and "it". Are you serious.



Not to mention the fact that he seems to have no remorse or respect for the family. He even goes on and says that he has a "clean conscience" and would shoot Micheal Brown again if put in the same situation.

- - - Post Merge - - -


----------



## LambdaDelta

so did he really quit the force?


----------



## S-A-M

Apple2012 said:


> The reason why I said that Zimmerman was worse was because both Martin and Zimmerman were punks. One night, they were looking for trouble. Well, they got trouble. I don't anybody except for the most heinous people deserved to die. Martin, Zimmerman, Brown, and Wilson, they're not even up there yet. Child abusers, animal abusers, ISIS, and Osama bin Laden already crossed that line. Yes, I know that I have been acting rude by painting wilson's supporters as victims and brown's supporters as bad guys, but I am trying to both express my opinions and defend myself. You can believe that Wilson is guilty. I agree that black people deserve citizenship rights. I agree that police brutality has got to stop. But I don't like people who were extreme towards me.
> 
> I should go back to being off this thread again.


yes we are extreme to get our basic human rights and not to be killed by a police officer. How is going to the store getting candy being a punk? Please specify how Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin "punks"


----------



## Zanessa

Apple2012 said:


> The reason why I said that Zimmerman was worse was because both Martin and Zimmerman were punks.



_*What?*_
Both of them were _punks?_
What the hell.. where are you even getting your information? _What..._

- - - Post Merge - - -



LambdaDelta said:


> so did he really quit the force?



Yes, he really did. \o/


----------



## LaceGloves

Apple2012 said:


> The reason why I said that Zimmerman was worse was because both Martin and Zimmerman were punks. One night, they were looking for trouble. Well, they got trouble. I don't anybody except for the most heinous people deserved to die. Martin, Zimmerman, Brown, and Wilson, they're not even up there yet. Child abusers, animal abusers, ISIS, and Osama bin Laden already crossed that line. Yes, I know that I have been acting rude by painting wilson's supporters as victims and brown's supporters as bad guys, but I am trying to both express my opinions and defend myself. You can believe that Wilson is guilty. I agree that black people deserve citizenship rights. I agree that police brutality has got to stop. But I don't like people who were extreme towards me.
> 
> I should go back to being off this thread again.



Martin wasn't looking for trouble. He was talking on the phone with his friend at the time Zimmerman was following him. 
The girl he was talking to said that Martin sounded nervous and asked Zimmerman why he was following him shortly before his death. :/


----------



## LambdaDelta

ZanessaGaily said:


> Yes, he really did. \o/



good

I hope nobody except the most desperate of employers hires him


----------



## LaceGloves

LambdaDelta said:


> good
> 
> I hope nobody except the most desperate of employers hires him



To be honest, he may not even try to get a job. He did make a million dollars from donations.


----------



## unintentional

Freindly reminder, my bio-dad stole cigs (and a car and got into a fight with police, and held a steak knife to a lady's throat.) and all he got was arrested (he tried to run back my bio-mom's apartment which was up a huge hill.) and 7 years in jail.  A year later,some other person (he was black.) just tried to steal some candy and got shot.  Whether or not Wilson is racist (which is more than likely true, that he is.) Brown never Held a knife to someone's throat and tried to kill someone.  There are plenty of other ways Wilson could've handled it.
/if that made no sense, I'm typing fast because my mom really (radically so) supports Wilson and watches fox news (so you know how they handle this case.) and I'd rrather not get in trouble with her./


----------



## LambdaDelta

LaceGloves said:


> To be honest, he may not even try to get a job. He did make a million dollars from donations.



then I hope anonymous hacks into his account


----------



## Trent the Paladin

LambdaDelta said:


> even if Brown did try to grab Wilson's gun
> 
> you know
> 
> the tazer
> 
> that Wilson didn't have because "muh comfort"
> 
> 
> also, not to mention I'm pretty sure that officers are meant to be able to engage with violent personal without the need of weapons to a degree. especially in cases where the dangerous individual is unarmed



One taser for an entire PD supposedly, so why would someone who finds it "uncomfortable" grab it anyways? Not only that, but tasers aren't this fullproof capcitation weapon. ACLU finds them ineffective, plus Ferguson PD is facing a lawsuit for misuse of [the] one resulting in the death of Jason Moore. 

Not trying to defend the turd, but tasers aren't this surefire thing, especially in the wrong hands.


----------



## Jarrad

Tom said:


> One taser for an entire PD supposedly, so why would someone who finds it "uncomfortable" grab it anyways? Not only that, but tasers aren't this fullproof capcitation weapon. ACLU finds them ineffective, plus Ferguson PD is facing a lawsuit for misuse of [the] one resulting in the death of Jason Moore.
> 
> Not trying to defend the turd, but tasers aren't this surefire thing, especially in the wrong hands.



Which begs the question

Why on earth was there ONE taser being shared between an entire department of police?

- - - Post Merge - - -

Why doesn't Wilson just take a lie detector test?
Even if the results aren't 100%, it would still provide insight on what he's lying about and what's the truth.


----------



## oath2order

Jarrad said:


> Which begs the question
> 
> Why on earth was there ONE taser being shared between an entire department of police?
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> Why doesn't Wilson just take a lie detector test?
> Even if the results aren't 100%, it would still provide insight on what he's lying about and what's the truth.



It wouldn't provide insight on what he's lying about, because by your own admission, they aren't 100%, therefore, we won't know if it's accurate or not.


----------



## M O L K O

I'm glad Darren resigned but I still believe he deserves jail time and stricter laws need to be enforced when it comes to gun laws.


----------



## Jarrad

M O L K O said:


> I'm glad Darren resigned but I still believe he deserves jail time and stricter laws need to be enforced when it comes to gun laws.



I doubt anything will happen.


----------



## M O L K O

Looks like this thread got messy once again so time to clean it up

ok this mostly @oathtoorder and his 'dont fire them even if they're racist'

no one can fire them except their boss.
Lemme say that again.
*NO ONE CAN F-I-R-E them except their boss*.
People are just screenshotting the peoples comments and sending them to their employeers.

Also let me brush everyone up on what the term Doxing is cuz tumblr is pissing me off with its 'hey i c ur fb..ur doxxed now get reck'd'





cuz lol thats not how it works.

The defintion:
Doxing:
search for and publish private or identifying information about (a particular individual) on the Internet, typically with malicious intent.

Your facebook, most times than not links you to your job and location. So that is not doxing. They're not doing anything illegal when they post the job you work at and let them know about your off-the-clock behavior. 

The only doxing cases has been done (thru tumblr) is against communismkills  (from my knowledge) and that was for her moms leaked credit card number (which im still on the fence about but thats another story)
When someone releases your address and phone number (granted, this is if you haven't put it online) that is also considered doxing.

Regarding @luckypinch and the few others that have not brushed on their homework
Read the links documents please. If you want to message me about something go ahead. I'm not on to much rn, and if I am its for the TBT fair. So I can't keep cleaning up the mess here but I'll do the best to keep everyone informed.
opinionatedwhitegirl.tumblr.com/post/103771603242/im-literally-so-disgusted-by-peoples-response-to

Now..back on topic with the ferguson case and not this 'doxing' bull****


----------



## oath2order

Why was communismkills getting doxed


----------



## M O L K O

oath2order said:


> Why was communismkills getting doxed



There's a lot of different reasons. 
Some people didn't like how she dehumanized Mikebrown
Some people didn't like how shes a jew and has had relations with a prolific nazi member
some people dont like her stance on jewish beliefs
some people dont like how she taunted users, saying how they weren't going to do **** 
Some people dont like her cherry picking of arguments (mostly towards her beliefs) and lack of consistency
Some people didn't like her overall rudeness and snobbiness when addressing issues she was against (however I realize this is a double edge-d sword)

Theres more but yea.


----------



## oath2order

None of which are reasons to dox or share credit card info.

wow.


----------



## M O L K O

oath2order said:


> None of which are reasons to share credit card info.
> 
> wow.



Fixed
and I honestly think it was more a scare tactic. Anyone who used it can be easily tracked back unless they know what they're doing. Nonetheless the proverb: "stay in your lane and ye will b unbothered" comes to mind.


----------



## puppy

molko i dont really get why you brought up the "doxing" thing bc that wasnt really being discussed. just the calling of employers and i dont recall anyone here referring to it as doxing but ok


----------



## oath2order

M O L K O said:


> Fixed
> and I honestly think it was more a scare tactic. Anyone who used it can be easily tracked back unless they know what they're doing. Nonetheless the proverb: "stay in your lane and ye will b unbothered" comes to mind.



So "know your role" essentially?


----------



## M O L K O

puppy said:


> molko i dont really get why you brought up the "doxing" thing bc that wasnt really being discussed. just the calling of employers and i dont recall anyone here referring to it as doxing but ok



well whether it was or wasn't I just wanted to make sure people knew what it meant since I've seen it rotating on tumblr and I did see it on a few posts on here ┐(‘～`；)┌

- - - Post Merge - - -



oath2order said:


> So "know your role" essentially?



Not talking out your ass helps yes
I feel that this thread is getting off topic, you can message me if you want to discuss this a bit more


----------



## NewLeaf13

Don't kill me, but I think people are taking this too seriously. It's sad Michael Brown died, but he made bad choices and messed with the wrong person. Darren Wilson had the right to shoot him. Michael Brown got kicked out of his mom's house, then his grandmother's house, moved to his friends house, and hastily invited back to his grandmother's house. He was not a "Gentle Giant".

Right before he was killed, he stole some cigars from a nearby convenience store. He was a criminal, not a gentle giant, and not a kid or an angel.


----------



## LaceGloves

NewLeaf13 said:


> Don't kill me, but I think people are taking this too seriously. It's sad Michael Brown died, but he made bad choices and messed with the wrong person. Darren Wilson had the right to shoot him. Michael Brown got kicked out of his mom's house, then his grandmother's house, moved to his friends house, and hastily invited back to his grandmother's house. He was not a "Gentle Giant".
> 
> Right before he was killed, he stole some cigars from a nearby convenience store. He was a criminal, not a gentle giant, and not a kid or an angel.



True. He was not an angel. 
Regardless of his background, if he had shoplifted, it is not punishable by death. His background was no concern of the cop who shot him 7 times too many.
There is video proof of him paying for the cigar though. Also, Darren Wilson was not aware that a "shoplifting" even occurred.

Not to mention that this happens every day. People are killed by police men just because of their skin. We are racially profiled because our skin says "you're dangerous". I believe that is why it has become such a big deal. Awareness of how often this happens is a good thing.


----------



## wintersoldier

NewLeaf13 said:


> Don't kill me, but I think people are taking this too seriously. It's sad Michael Brown died, but he made bad choices and messed with the wrong person. Darren Wilson had the right to shoot him. Michael Brown got kicked out of his mom's house, then his grandmother's house, moved to his friends house, and hastily invited back to his grandmother's house. He was not a "Gentle Giant".
> 
> Right before he was killed, he stole some cigars from a nearby convenience store. He was a criminal, not a gentle giant, and not a kid or an angel.



even if he wasn't meek or shy, even if he wasn't a gentle giant that shouldn't matter. he still deserved to be alive. he didn't deserve to be slaughtered and left on the street for hours like his entire existence didn't mean anything. i don't know how many times different users on this thread have to state that for you (and others to understand) 

people continue to vilify mike brown, but like i've stated it's easy to distance yourself from having sympathy for him when you continue to point out things that shouldn't matter. people go ahead and ask why we're so angry, why we're so passionate about this case. we can give you all these sources, we can explain why the demonization of black men and women is harmful... but such words fall to deaf ears. you don't want an explanation for why we feel strongly about this. what you want is verification to feel the way that you do.


----------



## KarlaKGB

LaceGloves said:


> His background was no concern of the cop who shot him 7 times too many.
> .



so u live in the hollywood world where one bullet stops ppl?


----------



## LambdaDelta

point is he shouldn't of even had to use a single bullet


----------



## KarlaKGB

LambdaDelta said:


> point is he shouldn't of even had to use a single bullet



even in the narrative that brown fought for control of his gun, and later charged at him?


----------



## LaceGloves

KarlaKGB said:


> even in the narrative that brown fought for control of his gun, and later charged at him?



He died 148-158 feet away from the vehicle, which means that he ran. :/

Darren Wilson also states that he ran and Wilson got out of the car and shot at Brown multiple more times.

- - - Post Merge - - -



KarlaKGB said:


> so u live in the hollywood world where one bullet stops ppl?



It would have alarmed me enough to stop trying to grab the gun.

There are also several eye witness reports that state he did not try to grab the gun.
Remember this took place in broad daylight.

I can provide links if you want to see.


----------



## LambdaDelta

KarlaKGB said:


> even in the narrative that brown fought for control of his gun, and later charged at him?



yes

cops should be trained to deal with *unarmed* individuals without excessive force


----------



## LaceGloves

LambdaDelta said:


> yes
> 
> cops should be trained to deal with *unarmed* individuals without excessive force



Exactly this.


----------



## Cazqui

Apple2012 said:


> The reason why I said that Zimmerman was worse was because both Martin and Zimmerman were punks. One night, they were looking for trouble. Well, they got trouble. I don't anybody except for the most heinous people deserved to die. Martin, Zimmerman, Brown, and Wilson, they're not even up there yet. Child abusers, animal abusers, ISIS, and Osama bin Laden already crossed that line. Yes, I know that I have been acting rude by painting wilson's supporters as victims and brown's supporters as bad guys, but I am trying to both express my opinions and defend myself. You can believe that Wilson is guilty. I agree that black people deserve citizenship rights. I agree that police brutality has got to stop. But I don't like people who were extreme towards me.
> 
> I should go back to being off this thread again.



So apparently in whatever deranged ****ed up world you live in going to the convenience store to get a pack of skittles makes you a ****ing punk. I find it astounding how you wonder why people don't take to kindly to the world you think you live in.


----------



## RayOfHope

NewLeaf13 said:


> Don't kill me, but I think people are taking this too seriously. It's sad Michael Brown died, but he made bad choices and messed with the wrong person. Darren Wilson had the right to shoot him. Michael Brown got kicked out of his mom's house, then his grandmother's house, moved to his friends house, and hastily invited back to his grandmother's house. He was not a "Gentle Giant".
> 
> Right before he was killed, he stole some cigars from a nearby convenience store. He was a criminal, not a gentle giant, and not a kid or an angel.



But does the theft of convenience store cigars really justify his death, though?


----------



## SuperVandal

Wyndfyre said:


> But does the theft of convenience store cigars really justify his death, though?



Apparently he "had it coming", which is logic I just do not understand. Death isn't something someone deserves. We're talking about human life, and the fact that people can be so dismissive of it shows just how 'cold' we are.


----------



## wintersoldier

SuperVandal said:


> Apparently he "had it coming", which is logic I just do not understand. Death isn't something someone deserves. We're talking about human life, and the fact that people can be so dismissive of it shows just how 'cold' we are.



i think this post on tumblr (i'm sorry, it was just worded really powerful for me) best describes what's going on. it's not about whether or not darren wilson murdered mike brown (because he did) it's whether or not mike brown was worthy enough to live. nevermind the fact that he was human... but to some people, he has to have some self-worth to deserve justice. there are people on this thread who have stated that he was dirty or that he didn't even have anything to live for, and that's when i laugh sadly when people say it's not about race.


----------



## NewLeaf13

wintersoldier said:


> i think this post on tumblr (i'm sorry, it was just worded really powerful for me) best describes what's going on. it's not about whether or not darren wilson murdered mike brown (because he did) it's whether or not mike brown was worthy enough to live. nevermind the fact that he was human... but to some people, he has to have some self-worth to deserve justice. there are people on this thread who have stated that he was dirty or that he didn't even have anything to live for, and that's when i laugh sadly when people say it's not about race.


But... it really isn't about race. Race doesn't have or should be a part of this. I realize that people are upset, and I know the black community had a hard time getting freedom, but it doesn't make it ok to riot. You don't see people getting mad because a Hispanic person killed an African-American person. Race has nothing to do about this. The officer was defending himself, and, in my opinion, kinda had the right to. Michael Brown probably shouldn't have got shot, but the officer was defending himself. It's a sad event, but it doesn't need rioting. MLK Jr. got African-American people freedom, and not one fire was set and not one shot was fired. It doesn't need to be violent.


----------



## Caius

NewLeaf13 said:


> But... it really isn't about race. Race doesn't have or should be a part of this. I realize that people are upset, and I know the black community had a hard time getting freedom, but it doesn't make it ok to riot. You don't see people getting mad because a Hispanic person killed an African-American person. Race has nothing to do about this. The officer was defending himself, and, in my opinion, kinda had the right to. Michael Brown probably shouldn't have got shot, but the officer was defending himself. It's a sad event, but it doesn't need rioting. MLK Jr. got African-American people freedom, and not one fire was set and not one shot was fired. It doesn't need to be violent.



Except MLK died from being shot.


----------



## NewLeaf13

ZR388 said:


> Except MLK died from being shot.


You are correct about that.

But, hopefully I'm not a hypocrite, but it was someone who was against what he was doing, but it wasn't directly related to it.


----------



## Caius

NewLeaf13 said:


> You are correct about that.
> 
> But, hopefully I'm not a hypocrite, but it was someone who was against what he was doing, but it wasn't directly related to it.



Well, then there's this which followed that.

And then there was this riot in Detroit a full year before MLK was assassinated. 

As far as people getting angry over a Hispanic person killing an African American, I'll direct you to this and this. The backlash wasn't as bad as Ferguson but after Martin there were quite a few people ready to start a riot in Apopka.


----------



## hulaburger

wintersoldier said:


> i think this post on tumblr (i'm sorry, it was just worded really powerful for me) best describes what's going on. it's not about whether or not darren wilson murdered mike brown (because he did) it's whether or not mike brown was worthy enough to live. nevermind the fact that he was human... but to some people, he has to have some self-worth to deserve justice. there are people on this thread who have stated that he was dirty or that he didn't even have anything to live for, and that's when i laugh sadly when people say it's not about race.



I get what they're saying but I kind of disagree. Self-defense is what the issue is, not whether he is worthy to live. I think that's a misleading way of putting it. It's not about whether he was a nice guy or not. any time you kill someone, whether they break into your home or try to rape you or fight you or whatever the case may be, you have to prove to the court that you did not use excessive force & that you were in genuine danger. 
and this whole thread is tl;dr but  if people said he was dirty and had no reason to live, that's ****ed up. I think this situation is sad all around. it's just sad. we lost a life and his family is grieving him. no momma wants to lose their baby.


----------



## Caius

hulaburger said:


> I get what they're saying but I kind of disagree. Self-defense is what the issue is, not whether he is worthy to live. I think that's a misleading way of putting it. It's not about whether he was a nice guy or not. any time you kill someone, whether they break into your home or try to rape you or fight you or whatever the case may be, you have to prove to the court that you did not use excessive force & that you were in genuine danger.
> and this whole thread is tl;dr but  if people said he was dirty and had no reason to live, that's ****ed up. I think this situation is sad all around. it's just sad. we lost a life and his family is grieving him. no momma wants to lose their baby.



Even though we have a censor please watch your language.


----------



## LaceGloves

NewLeaf13 said:


> But... it really isn't about race. Race doesn't have or should be a part of this. I realize that people are upset, and I know the black community had a hard time getting freedom, but it doesn't make it ok to riot. You don't see people getting mad because a Hispanic person killed an African-American person. Race has nothing to do about this. The officer was defending himself, and, in my opinion, kinda had the right to. Michael Brown probably shouldn't have got shot, but the officer was defending himself. It's a sad event, but it doesn't need rioting. MLK Jr. got African-American people freedom, and not one fire was set and not one shot was fired. It doesn't need to be violent.



I don't think that you get how often this happens. People are racially profiled and killed by police all the time. That is why people are rioting. Because although this happens so often, no one is ever prosecuted. It is about race. 

There was a lot of rioting and looting in MLK's movement. The police were violent and hostile during that time as well. No one talks about that though, because it's all about what he helped change.


----------



## SuperVandal

NewLeaf13 said:


> But... it really isn't about race.



If this wasn't about race, we wouldn't be arguing about it nearly 4 months after the events happened. If it wasn't about race regarding Martin, we wouldn't be arguing about it more than a year later. Accept that yes, race is an important issue at hand in these events. You may not agree with what is being presented against you, but acknowledge what needs to be acknowledged and stop trying to dissuade the issues people have with society and the responses that have been received in response to topics such as these.


----------



## Alolan_Apples

I decided to remove all the people I blocked last weekend from my ignore list. I can now see your posts. However, it still bothers me that some of you have pointed at me in a negative light for believing that Martin and Brown are punks and that you kept harassing me for sources. I'm not going to post any source. I'm not going to change my opinions on what I think about the situation. Arguing in a political debate is one thing, but pointing at your opponents in a negative light like what some of you have done is very bothersome. I may have been rude on two different incidents on this site that got others mad at me, but I didn't do anything wrong on this thread either. So if you stop putting me in a negative light for having a different opinion, then I can get along with you.


----------



## Trundle

LaceGloves said:


> Darren Wilson shot an unarmed teenager 7 times. The boy had his hands above his head, and he died 158 feet away from the police vehicle. It is also stated that Darren Wilson did not know the boy robbed the store. In fact, the man that was working at the store at the time didn't even call the police. (There is video evidence of the teen paying for his cigarettes as well) It is understood that Michael Brown was a big guy and could probably punch the crap out of this police officer, but that is not the case either. Just look at the pictures of Darren Wilson's "injuries". It's like nothing is there! If the gun was necessary, it should have been used to APPREHEND this boy, not kill him. Petty theft is not punishable by death.
> That should state enough.
> 
> I am very passionate about this subject, because my stepfather's best friend was shot and killed by an officer with no reason whatsoever. It changed his life forever. This is the stuff that happens every day, and I believe that as a community, we have no choice but to act out at this point. This issue has been a silent killer of minorities for so long, and I am tired of it being swept under the rug.
> 
> Darren Wilson didn't even get indicted, people!



SOURCES PLEASE SOURCES COULD I GET YOUR SOURCES


----------



## Zanessa

Apple2012 said:


> However, it still bothers me that some of you have pointed at me in a negative light for believing that Martin and Brown are punks and that you kept harassing me for sources. I'm not going to post any source.



If you're not going to add your sources, then you shouldn't really be debating.. that's a big thing in debates like this. :/


----------



## Alolan_Apples

ZanessaGaily said:


> If you're not going to add your sources, then you shouldn't really be debating.. that's a big thing in debates like this. :/



Yeah, but the way you said it before sounded like you acted like a mod. Now you're not. Someone on LBPC got mad at me for acting like a mod when I'm not a mod at all. Judging by my experience here, now I can see how he feels. Thank you for not sounding like a mod this time.


----------



## Zanessa

Apple2012 said:


> Yeah, but the way you said it before sounded like you acted like a mod. Now you're not. Someone on LBPC got mad at me for acting like a mod when I'm not a mod at all. Judging by my experience here, now I can see how he feels. Thank you for not sounding like a mod this time.



I didn't mean to sound like that, my apologies!


----------



## Alolan_Apples

ZanessaGaily said:


> I didn't mean to sound like that, my apologies!



Apology accepted. It's okay to be helpful (like that last post you made), but not bossy. The reason why I can't name the people that bothered me is because I already got in trouble on LBPC for calling out names and accusing them of various offenses (even if they are true). And if I don't feel comfortable when people point at me in a negative light, then why should I name users and point at them in a negative light? Not only it's hypocritical, but it's breaking the golden rule.

This is my last post about this. If you wanna continue talking about this, feel free to PM or VM me.


----------



## M O L K O

Trundle said:


> SOURCES PLEASE SOURCES COULD I GET YOUR SOURCES



Sources on mike brown or her situation? I've provided some a few pages back but I can paste them again if you don't feel like going through a mound of pages.


----------



## LaceGloves

Trundle said:


> SOURCES PLEASE SOURCES COULD I GET YOUR SOURCES



-Robbery

http://theblot.com/update-ferguson-police-chief-lied-michael-brown-surveillance-tape-7725490

http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/08/ferguson-store-owner-says-he-doesnt-believe-thats-mike-brown-on-surveillance-video/#

http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local/2014/08/15/lawyer-store-didnt-call-cops-on-ferguson-teen-michael-brown/14138121/

http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local/2014/08/15/ferguson-chief-officer-didnt-know-about-robbery/14124259/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/05/ferguson-chief-lied-about-michael-brown-tape_n_5773420.html?&ir=Politics&ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000016&utm_content=buffer4b04d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

https://38.media.tumblr.com/f469bdc0643b44ad6537f533b25fbfea/tumblr_nact6fW3UR1smgrs7o1_1280.png

-Murder

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/18/1322540/-Autopsy-suggests-Mike-Brown-had-his-arms-in-surrender-position-when-Darren-Wilson-killed-him

http://www.vox.com/2014/11/25/7281165/darren-wilsons-story-side

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/eyewitness-michael-brown-fatal-shooting-missouri

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWUkBxmFUvU



I couldn't find all of my sources, but this is all of the stuff I found that I had read previously.
PM me if you would like to know anything else?


----------



## hulaburger

ZR388 said:


> Even though we have a censor please watch your language.



why?

- - - Post Merge - - -



LaceGloves said:


> -Robbery
> 
> http://theblot.com/update-ferguson-police-chief-lied-michael-brown-surveillance-tape-7725490
> 
> http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/08/ferguson-store-owner-says-he-doesnt-believe-thats-mike-brown-on-surveillance-video/#
> http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local/2014/08/15/lawyer-store-didnt-call-cops-on-ferguson-teen-michael-brown/14138121/
> http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local/2014/08/15/ferguson-chief-officer-didnt-know-about-robbery/14124259/
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/05/ferguson-chief-lied-about-michael-brown-tape_n_5773420.html?&ir=Politics&ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000016&utm_content=buffer4b04d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
> https://38.media.tumblr.com/f469bdc0643b44ad6537f533b25fbfea/tumblr_nact6fW3UR1smgrs7o1_1280.png
> -Murder
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/18/1322540/-Autopsy-suggests-Mike-Brown-had-his-arms-in-surrender-position-when-Darren-Wilson-killed-him
> http://www.vox.com/2014/11/25/7281165/darren-wilsons-story-side
> http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/eyewitness-michael-brown-fatal-shooting-missouri
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWUkBxmFUvU
> I couldn't find all of my sources, but this is all of the stuff I found that I had read previously.
> PM me if you would like to know anything else?



what is your opinion on the evidence that was presented to the court?


----------



## LambdaDelta

because

staff asked you to?


do you seriously need another reason?


----------



## WonderK

I kind of just want this situation to blow over and die. 



hulaburger said:


> why?



Because there are kids who come on this site and staff asked you to.


----------



## hulaburger

LambdaDelta said:


> because
> 
> staff asked you to?
> do you seriously need another reason?



you blindly agree with everything people in authority say? do that mean you agree with the ferguson police too? lol.


----------



## LambdaDelta

hulaburger said:


> you blindly agree with everything people in authority say? do that mean you agree with the ferguson police too? lol.



when its perfectly sensible, yes

- - - Post Merge - - -

also did you seriously just compare a case of human rights violation, authority abuse, and etc to being nicely asked to not say something online?


----------



## hulaburger

LambdaDelta said:


> also did you seriously just compare a case of human rights violation, authority abuse, and etc to being nicely asked to not say something online?



no, I don't think so.


----------



## M O L K O

WonderK said:


> I kind of just want this situation to blow over and die.


I'm sure the parents of the dead kids wish the cops would stop shooting unarmed citizens too :/


----------



## Caius

hulaburger said:


> you blindly agree with everything people in authority say? do that mean you agree with the ferguson police too? lol.



Honestly I'd just appreciate it if you wouldn't man.


----------



## unintentional

M O L K O said:


> I'm sure the parents of the dead kids wish the cops would stop shooting unarmed citizens too :/



THIS

My parents are complaining about how Wilson no longer has a job 'and his life is ruined.'  Like, please shut up mom and dad.  At least he has a LIFE,  so many people's lives has been taken for no reason.


----------



## WonderK

M O L K O said:


> I'm sure the parents of the dead kids wish the cops would stop shooting unarmed citizens too :/



I feel for the parents. I really do. Hopefully this catastrophe gets resolved soon and the guilty parties are brought to justice.


----------



## LambdaDelta

WonderK said:


> I kind of just want this situation to blow over and die.



I'll admit I kinda feel this way too, but at the same time its just allowing history to repeat itself.


----------



## AppleBitterCrumble

There is always two side's to a story:

I have been watching the news and it has been said that the person who got shot (something Brown) attacked first using his fist. The officer had every right to shoot at him for he was defending himself.

It is really stupid how people in Ferguson are reacting by burning police stations and vandalism. A african-american cop could shoot a white person and I hope that we wouldn't react like how the people in Ferguson are. I to was a little upset but here where I live we riot by singing songs in the downtown part of out state and holding signs.


----------



## Ichigo.

AppleBitterCrumble said:


> There is always two side's to a story:
> 
> I have been watching the news and it has been said that the person who got shot (something Brown) attacked first using his fist. The officer had every right to shoot at him for he was defending himself.
> 
> It is really stupid how people in Ferguson are reacting by burning police stations and vandalism. A african-american cop could shoot a white person and I hope that we wouldn't react like how the people in Ferguson are. I to was a little upset but here where I live we riot by singing songs in the downtown part of out state and holding signs.



Didn't he shoot him multiple times though? Sure he has every right to defend himself, but as a police officer, shouldn't he be equipped with the skills to handle something like that without using excessive force?


----------



## LambdaDelta

AppleBitterCrumble said:


> I have been watching the news and it has been said that the person who got shot (something Brown) attacked first using his fist. The officer had every right to shoot at him for he was defending himself.



again, no

officer's as far as I'm aware are meant to be trained to deal with unarmed and violent individuals without having to resort to firearms (especially when they're in clsoe proximity), and if he seriously had to whip out the gun then he was unquestionably a ****ty excuse of a cop


----------



## SuperVandal

i think we're just walking in circles with rehashed opinions and arguments and clearly aren't moving anywhere lol


----------



## LaceGloves

AppleBitterCrumble said:


> A african-american cop could shoot a white person and I hope that we wouldn't react like how the people in Ferguson are.



People wouldn't react this way because if it was a black cop, he would probably get convicted. No questions asked. :|
Lets not start with "if this" and "if that" though. Lets look at the matter at hand.

- - - Post Merge - - -



SuperVandal said:


> i think we're just walking in circles with rehashed opinions and arguments and clearly aren't moving anywhere lol



I agree.


----------



## LambdaDelta

Honestly, since self-defense argument has been brought up a lot, I'd like to pose a question to everyone. Though specifically for people that have brought up this argument.

Do you think if someone punched you and your response was shooting them, that you'd get off scot-free?

Now let me follow this up with another question.

Do you think an officer of the law should be above this?

- - - Post Merge - - -



SuperVandal said:


> i think we're just walking in circles with rehashed opinions and arguments and clearly aren't moving anywhere lol



Are you just now noticing this?


----------



## hulaburger

LambdaDelta said:


> Honestly, since self-defense argument has been brought up a lot, I'd like to pose a question to everyone. Though specifically for people that have brought up this argument.
> 
> Do you think if someone punched you and your response was shooting them, that you'd get off scot-free?



He was not simply punched. You're leaving something out.. What if the person violently assaulted you and then tried to grab your gun? would u fear for your life or nah? 
this part was confirmed by evidence
if someone was being violent towards me and then tried to take my gun, i would fire it and think "oh poo poo, this person is gonna try to to shoot me"

here r some articles about the forensic  evidence. they went all CSI on it.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/11/25/366575509/ferguson-documents-the-physical-evidence 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...38c7b4-5964-11e4-bd61-346aee66ba29_story.html

full list of court transcripts
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/11/25/us/evidence-released-in-michael-brown-case.html

- - - Post Merge - - -



ZR388 said:


> Honestly I'd just appreciate it if you wouldn't man.



ok I respect that!\


----------



## LambdaDelta

until it's proven that the court hearing wasn't a biased sham, I'm taking everything in it with a grain of salt

and so what if he *attempted* to grab it? that still doesn't justify murder


----------



## Zanessa

LambdaDelta said:


> and so what if he *attempted* to grab it? that still doesn't justify murder



Basically this for everyone saying "he tried to grab the gun" or something along those lines.


----------



## hulaburger

ZanessaGaily said:


> Basically this for everyone saying "he tried to grab the gun" or something along those lines.



if someone was beating me up and then tried to grab my gun, I would think "oh frick i am about to get shot"
the whole situation is sad. I don't justify any of it, but just being real that would be my reaction too.

- - - Post Merge - - -



LambdaDelta said:


> until it's proven that the court hearing wasn't a biased sham, I'm taking everything in it with a grain of salt
> 
> and so what if he *attempted* to grab it? that still doesn't justify murder



lol it's innocent until proven guilty, not "guilty until proven innocent" in the USA. how are you going to prove a negative here. we all just believe what we feel emotionally in this case. the court case was about finding evidence, not feelings.


----------



## LambdaDelta

hulaburger said:


> lol it's innocent until proven guilty, not "guilty until proven innocent" in the USA. how are you going to prove a negative here. we all just believe what we feel emotionally in this case. the court case was about finding evidence, not feelings.



Because multiple other sources as well as this case's entire history supports that the hearing was biased from the start, and just done to put on a show.

Plus I think there was also things in exactly how the hearing was handled? Though I'll let someone else confirm/deny that if possible.



In which case if this does turn out to be a shame like I think it is, let me also remind you that court hearings are meant to be fair to all involved.


----------



## hulaburger

LambdaDelta said:


> Because multiple other sources as well as this case's entire history supports that the hearing was biased from the start, and just done to put on a show.
> 
> Plus I think there was also things in exactly how the hearing was handled? Though I'll let someone else confirm/deny that if possible.
> In which case if this does turn out to be a shame like I think it is, let me also remind you that court hearings are meant to be fair to all involved.



oh  for real? I didn't hear about the way the hearing handled being wrong. let me know if you have more about that.


----------



## Blu Rose

LambdaDelta said:


> until it's proven that the court hearing wasn't a biased sham, I'm taking everything in it with a grain of salt
> 
> and so what if he *attempted* to grab it? that still doesn't justify murder



If and only if Brown attempted to grab the officer's gun--note that I'm not saying he did--then the shooting would be justified by self-defense laws.

If a person is posing an immediate threat to one's well-being, then one can take it out with an as equal force as the one being presented.
In other words, if someone were about to shoot me, I would have the right to shoot them.  If someone attempts to grab your gun from out of your hands, what is going to happen next if they take the gun?  Is the gun just going to fall to the ground, unused?  Most likely not.  If someone has the audacity to come up to me and steal my gun from out of my hands (if I were an officer) then they are probably going to shoot me.
So I take them out with an equal force to the one being presented.

Besides, a white man getting shot--and killed--by a black cop has never gotten so much attention, or at least not in my lifetime.  Why is it suddenly a big deal when a black man gets shot--and then dies--by a white cop?  Many cops have "gotten away" with shooting people they deem suspicious, why should this case be any different?  Because, suddenly, race is involved?  

kthxbye


----------



## LambdaDelta

honestly I'm hoping M O L K O returns, as they're far more knowledgeable than I am and I feel I'd just mess up

though if you had the time, you could skim the thread for links and stuff. they and others have already posted lots of useful ones backing up arguments and etc


----------



## SuperVandal

LambdaDelta said:


> Are you just now noticing this?



yup i sort of ignored the first 30 or 40 pages


----------



## LambdaDelta

Blu Rose said:


> If and only if Brown attempted to grab the officer's gun--note that I'm not saying he did--then the shooting would be justified by self-defense laws.
> 
> If a person is posing an immediate threat to one's well-being, then one can take it out with an as equal force as the one being presented.
> In other words, if someone were about to shoot me, I would have the right to shoot them.  If someone attempts to grab your gun from out of your hands, what is going to happen next if they take the gun?  Is the gun just going to fall to the ground, unused?  Most likely not.  If someone has the audacity to come up to me and steal my gun from out of my hands (if I were an officer) then they are probably going to shoot me.
> So I take them out with an equal force to the one being presented.



So an equal force of failing to grab a gun is... Using a gun? What?



Blu Rose said:


> Besides, a white man getting shot--and killed--by a black cop has never gotten so much attention, or at least not in my lifetime.  Why is it suddenly a big deal when a black man gets shot--and then dies--by a white cop?  Many cops have "gotten away" with shooting people they deem suspicious, why should this case be any different?  Because, suddenly, race is involved?
> 
> kthxbye



people are just now realizing this is a serious issue that needs to be stamped out

so people are slow to act is the reason


----------



## SuperVandal

Blu Rose said:


> Besides, a white man getting shot--and killed--by a black cop has never gotten so much attention, or at least not in my lifetime.  Why is it suddenly a big deal when a black man gets shot--and then dies--by a white cop?  Many cops have "gotten away" with shooting people they deem suspicious, why should this case be any different?  Because, suddenly, race is involved?
> 
> kthxbye


congrats you answered your own question


----------



## LambdaDelta

SuperVandal said:


> yup i sort of ignored the first 30 or 40 pages



lol, ok

(I'd say it's been going in circles since the very beginning)


----------



## Katelyn

People actually think he's guilty? What the actual f*** xD The guy was protecting himself, he clearly told him to stop walking but he kept walking towards him. Then, he decided to charge at Wilson, so of course he was going to shoot him since he felt threatened. Did he deserve to be killed? Of course not. Did he deserve to be shot? H*** yea he did. The only reason they are making a big deal out of it is because he was *black*. If he was a white guy none of this would be happening. My god, all of these stupid f****** people just need to stop rioting because they are just making it worse for themselves. If they think they have a bad reputation now...ha, wait until this is all over. They will forever be known as the stupid people who ruined their own city. I can't wait.


----------



## gnoixaim

LambdaDelta said:


> honestly I'm hoping M O L K O returns, as they're far more knowledgeable than I am and I feel I'd just mess up
> 
> though if you had the time, you could skim the thread for links and stuff. they and others have already posted lots of useful ones backing up arguments and etc



Let me get her for you : )


----------



## hulaburger

katiegurl1223 said:


> My god, all of these stupid f****** people just need to stop rioting because they are just making it worse for themselves. _If they think they have a bad reputation now._..ha, wait until this is all over. They will forever be known as the stupid people who ruined their own city. I can't wait.



when you say this.. are you talking about black folks?


----------



## SuperVandal

katiegurl1223 said:


> People actually think he's guilty? What the actual f*** xD The guy was protecting himself, he clearly told him to stop walking but he kept walking towards him. Then, he decided to charge at Wilson, so of course he was going to shoot him since he felt threatened. Did he deserve to be killed? Of course not. Did he deserve to be shot? H*** yea he did. The only reason they are making a big deal out of it is because he was *black*. If he was a white guy none of this would be happening. My god, all of these stupid f****** people just need to stop rioting because they are just making it worse for themselves. If they think they have a bad reputation now...ha, wait until this is all over. They will forever be known as the stupid people who ruined their own city. I can't wait.



ignorance with a hint of racism. cool


----------



## Blu Rose

LambdaDelta said:


> So an equal force of failing to grab a gun is... Using a gun? What?


An equal force of what would most likely have happened if he had gotten the gun.
What else could the officer had done to stop Brown from getting his gun--that is, if he was going for it?
Sure, it didn't happen--but it was about to.  The threat in question can even be verbal--as long as it puts the person into a position where they are fearful for their lives, they can strike before stricken.


----------



## f11

katiegurl1223 said:


> People actually think he's guilty? What the actual f*** xD The guy was protecting himself, he clearly told him to stop walking but he kept walking towards him. Then, he decided to charge at Wilson, so of course he was going to shoot him since he felt threatened. Did he deserve to be killed? Of course not. Did he deserve to be shot? H*** yea he did. The only reason they are making a big deal out of it is because he was *black*. If he was a white guy none of this would be happening. My god, all of these stupid f****** people just need to stop rioting because they are just making it worse for themselves. If they think they have a bad reputation now...ha, wait until this is all over. They will forever be known as the stupid people who ruined their own city. I can't wait.


if he was white the cop would have been in jail 25 to life lmao. I presume you are talking about black people when you say they are ruining their reputation? On the internet there is plenty of videos of white people jaywalking, are any of them dead for it?


----------



## hulaburger

SuperVandal said:


> ignorance with a hint of racism. cool



mte lol. she didnt even try to hide it


----------



## wintersoldier

katiegurl1223 said:


> People actually think he's guilty? What the actual f*** xD The guy was protecting himself, he clearly told him to stop walking but he kept walking towards him. Then, he decided to try to reach for Wilson's gun, so of course he was going to shoot him instead of getting his weapon stolen. Did he deserve to be killed? Of course not. Did he deserve to be shot. H*** yea he did. The only reason they are making a big deal out of it is because he was *black*. If he was a white guy none of this would be happening. My god, all of these stupid f****** people just need to stop rioting because they are just making it worse for themselves. If they think they have a bad reputation now...ha, wait until this is all over. They will forever be known as the stupid people who ruined their own city. I can't wait.



if you don't think this case is about race then you need to educate yourself more on the matter bc i'm tired of people coming in here talking about how it wouldn't matter if he's white or that it's not about race. countless black men and women are victims of police brutality and their cases get swept under the rug bc of this corrupt system. this very system that's supposed to protect it's citizens, yet places them in harms way.

nothing will change unless people make sure their voices are heard. i don't think it's stupid for people to be rioting. they have a right to be angry, they have a right to be tired with the system. of course i don't agree with looting and vandalism, but that's not the point right now. there are PLENTY of people who are holding peaceful protests, but it's not shown bc that's not what the media wants their viewers to see. if you opened your eyes and actually look at around you would see the truth behind these protests.

really though? you can't wait for these protestors to viewed as people who ruined their owned city? the people who ruined the city were not the protesters, but the people behind the cover up. however, you shouldn't worry too much... i'm sure they'll be okay in the end, unlike the victims of their brutality.


----------



## M O L K O

LambdaDelta said:


> honestly I'm hoping M O L K O returns, as they're far more knowledgeable than I am and I feel I'd just mess up
> 
> though if you had the time, you could skim the thread for links and stuff. they and others have already posted lots of useful ones backing up arguments and etc



How the hearing was mishandled:
First: Darren did not conduct a incident report of the altercation between him and mike brown, first red flag and is against the missiouri police code of conduct[link of the missouri police department handbook]
Second: here's an article of how badly the case was handled
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/25/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-mistakes_n_6220814.html
This is a great article that goes into detail of the errors of the case.
Third:The Autopsy was completed by someone that has no medical credentials
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...d-forensics-expert-in-the-michael-brown-case/

This is all I can think of at 3am. Sorry I got the text at 1 but only read before I went to bed. If there's anything that needs to be added please feel free to share it 

- - - Post Merge - - -



katiegurl1223 said:


> People actually think he's guilty? What the actual f*** xD The guy was protecting himself, he clearly told him to stop walking but he kept walking towards him. Then, he decided to charge at Wilson, so of course he was going to shoot him since he felt threatened. Did he deserve to be killed? Of course not. Did he deserve to be shot? H*** yea he did. The only reason they are making a big deal out of it is because he was *black*. If he was a white guy none of this would be happening. My god, all of these stupid f****** people just need to stop rioting because they are just making it worse for themselves. If they think they have a bad reputation now...ha, wait until this is all over. They will forever be known as the stupid people who ruined their own city. I can't wait.


This is the most disgusting display of ignorance I've seen in this thread. 
Here's a masterpost to help guide you
opinionatedwhitegirl.tumblr.com/post/103771603242/im-literally-so-disgusted-by-peoples-response-to
 but sadly I think you have your mind made up. And in your twisted mind frame an unarmed black man walking up to an officer is deserving of a gun shot. Ok thanks noted.


----------



## WonderK

katiegurl1223 said:


> People actually think he's guilty? What the actual f*** xD The guy was protecting himself, he clearly told him to stop walking but he kept walking towards him. Then, he decided to charge at Wilson, so of course he was going to shoot him since he felt threatened. Did he deserve to be killed? Of course not. Did he deserve to be shot? H*** yea he did. The only reason they are making a big deal out of it is because he was *black*. If he was a white guy none of this would be happening. My god, all of these stupid f****** people just need to stop rioting because they are just making it worse for themselves. If they think they have a bad reputation now...ha, wait until this is all over. They will forever be known as the stupid people who ruined their own city. I can't wait.



.... Sigh. You should try informing yourself before posting.


----------



## LambdaDelta

katiegurl1223 said:


> People actually think he's guilty? What the actual f*** xD The guy was protecting himself, he clearly told him to stop walking but he kept walking towards him. Then, he decided to charge at Wilson, so of course he was going to shoot him since he felt threatened. Did he deserve to be killed? Of course not. Did he deserve to be shot? H*** yea he did. The only reason they are making a big deal out of it is because he was *black*. If he was a white guy none of this would be happening. My god, all of these stupid f****** people just need to stop rioting because they are just making it worse for themselves. If they think they have a bad reputation now...ha, wait until this is all over. They will forever be known as the stupid people who ruined their own city. I can't wait.



hold on

>check age
>16-18

brb weeping for humanity


----------



## Alolan_Apples

katiegurl1223 said:


> People actually think he's guilty? What the heck xD The guy was protecting himself, he clearly told him to stop walking but he kept walking towards him. Then, he decided to charge at Wilson, so of course he was going to shoot him since he felt threatened. Did he deserve to be killed? Of course not. Did he deserve to be shot? Heck yea he did. The only reason they are making a big deal out of it is because he was *black*. If he was a white guy none of this would be happening. My god, all of these stupid people just need to stop rioting because they are just making it worse for themselves. If they think they have a bad reputation now...ha, wait until this is all over. They will forever be known as the stupid people who ruined their own city. I can't wait.



I fixed it just a little bit. Just watch the language.

Welcome to this thread. For over the past 50 pages, I was trying to say the same thing, but people have pointed at me in a negative light for agreeing that Martin and Brown were punks. I'm glad that NewLeaf13 and I are not alone anymore, but some people take their opinions extremely seriously. In the contrary, I understand why they are extreme towards their views as they insult people with contradicting opinions. For over 400 years, black people have been primarily treated wrong in America and the colonies that existed prior to America. First, there was slavery. Then there was segregation. And even if the Civil Rights era is over, black people are still being treated unequally. For example, blacks were targeted more by police due to racial profiling and they get punished extra, even if a white person does the same thing. This is kinda the reason why they take race as an excuse in situations like this, and why the supporters for Brown and Martin are more extreme towards their views than the opponents are to their views. But it still leaves no excuse to attack others for having different opinions or to point at them in a negative light for believing one way. It leads to an argument that could turn into a board war.

Personally, I don't care what color their skin is, or what gender they are, or what religious beliefs they have, if they do a horrible crime, they should get equal the punishment.

Our justice system has been messed up lately (including in the Supreme Court, like when they upheld Obamacare in 2012).


----------



## Cadbberry

The thief was a criminal, even unarmed the cop wouldn't know. If he felt his life was in immediate danger it is ok. I mean it isn't ok someone died, no matter race or age, but the cop wanted to go back to his family as much as the kid wanted to do whatever he wanted. I feel the cop is fine with no chargers, maybe a recap of police classes but he shot because the kid reached for something, not a weapon since he was unarmed. I understand everyone sees differently and this is my view. Please don't bash me because I don't agree with you.


----------



## KarlaKGB

the problem with ferguson is that ppl are treating it as the test case for all of the racial issues in america where it's all or nothing. they treat the position that wilson *murdered* brown as fact, when the only thing that can be considered fact is that wilson *killed* brown. rather with so much conflicting evidence and testimony, nobody knows wat really happened. u cant convict anyone of murder under these circumstances because u cant prove any narrative beyond reasonable doubt. and thats why the grand jury refused to indict wilson, because u cant have trial by public opinion.


----------



## oath2order

KarlaKGB said:


> the problem with ferguson is that ppl are treating it as the test case for all of the racial issues in america where it's all or nothing. they treat the position that wilson *murdered* brown as fact, when the only thing that can be considered fact is that wilson *killed* brown. rather with so much conflicting evidence and testimony, nobody knows wat really happened. u cant convict anyone of murder under these circumstances because u cant prove any narrative beyond reasonable doubt. and thats why the grand jury refused to indict wilson, because u cant have trial by public opinion.



Trial by public opinion is basically how all these cases go. Casey Anthony, Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown and probably countless more that I can't think of.

Pretty sure a good chunk of people here don't understand how the justice system works. Innocent until proven guilty, and as you said, it has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

But this isn't going to convince anybody. We could go on about how the system is supposed to work, but I'm sure that for quite a few people, the minute they learned that a white cop shot a black kid, that cop was guilty no matter what was uncovered.


----------



## KarlaKGB

u cud also see just how emotionally invested some ppl are in this thread and how it really puts their ability to be objective into question. like that dolt who censored wilson's name lmao. its not like ppl do it to h*tler and im pretty sure h*tler was a lot nastier to black ppl


----------



## Nyxia

KarlaKGB said:


> u cud also see just how emotionally invested some ppl are in this thread and how it really puts their ability to be objective into question. like that dolt who censored wilson's name lmao. its not like ppl do it to h*tler and im pretty sure h*tler was a lot nastier to black ppl


Emotions seem to be what's causing a lot of these negative posts.  My thoughts are with the parents who lost a child and Wilson who is now out of a job with a child on the way.


----------



## Katelyn

SuperVandal said:


> ignorance with a hint of racism. cool



Lmao that wasn't racist at all. I was just saying the only reason it's such a big thing is because it was a white cop that shot a black guy. If it was a white guy that got shot, it would have been done and over with. But, they are using this as a chance to pull the race card and get "justice".

- - - Post Merge - - -



Crys said:


> if he was white the cop would have been in jail 25 to life lmao. I presume you are talking about black people when you say they are ruining their reputation? On the internet there is plenty of videos of white people jaywalking, are any of them dead for it?



No, I'm not talking about black people ruining their reputation. I'm talking about everyone that is rioting, they're all ruining the city's reputation as a whole. There's also white, Hispanic, etc. people rioting. So all of you that think that was a racist comment are so overly sensitive it's unreal.


----------



## KarlaKGB

and also lol at the ppl who are spinning it by saying jaywalking is a capital crime. situations escalate, and wat may have been a cop telling someone off for jaywalking could easily escalate into a deadly force incident. there are many videos out there of routine traffic stops resulting in the murder of a police officer.


----------



## Katelyn

hulaburger said:


> when you say this.. are you talking about black folks?



No, I'm just talking about everyone that is rioting. They're all just ruining their city's reputation.


----------



## M O L K O

Hi I'm that dolt and when the kkk and neo Nazis are the ones emotionally invested in Darren's side I.e the grand wizard himself. I don't think it's wrong for people to be just as*emotionally invested.

I'm on mobile but I'll clean up the thread that got insanely messy in two pages once I get to my computer. Once again I'll gladly look at your proof and sources of Darrens innocence. However in all 50 pages no one has brought any.
Th*nks


----------



## KarlaKGB

M O L K O said:


> Hi I'm that dolt and when the kkk and neo Nazis are the ones emotionally invested in Darren's side I.e the grand wizard himself. I don't think it's wrong for people to be just as*emotionally invested.
> 
> I'm on mobile but I'll clean up the thread that got insanely messy in two pages once I get to my computer. Once again I'll gladly look at your proof and sources of Darrens innocence. However in all 50 pages no one has brought any.
> Th*nks



two wrongs dont make a right, but i see u pull urself down to the same depths as the kkk and neo nazis. 

i have no definitive proof or sources that prove wilson's innocence, no more than u have any proof or sources that prove his guilt. only a few ppl know wat really happened there and they are in no position to impose judgement on this case. u show at best absolute ignorance and at worst absolute disregard and disrespect for how the criminal justice system works.


----------



## M O L K O

Cadbberry said:


> The thief was a criminal, even unarmed the cop wouldn't know. If he felt his life was in immediate danger it is ok. I mean it isn't ok someone died, no matter race or age, but the cop wanted to go back to his family as much as the kid wanted to do whatever he wanted. I feel the cop is fine with no chargers, maybe a recap of police classes but he shot because the kid reached for something, not a weapon since he was unarmed. I understand everyone sees differently and this is my view. Please don't bash me because I don't agree with you.


I just want to clarify that mike brown was 100+ feet away from darren when shot, so there was no way for him to grab the gun
Sources are abundunt but here's one from the wall street journal stating there was no sign of struggle:
http://online.wsj.com/articles/inde...truggle-in-michael-browns-shooting-1408381747
and more on the distance between the two and how there was no way he could have 'grabbed the gun'
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/...killed-148-feet-away-from-Darren-Wilson-s-SUV


Apple2012 said:


> Snip


I'm a bit hesitant to reply to you as you seem to be set in stone however I notice many lurkers here so here is why race is still relevant and how
"I don't see color!?!?!?" Arguments are mute..very mute
http://wretchedoftheearth.tumblr.co...riginal-arguments-about-racism-let-me-know-if




KarlaKGB said:


> two wrongs dont make a right, but i see u pull urself down to the same depths as the kkk and neo nazis.
> 
> i have no definitive proof or sources that prove wilson's innocence, no more than u have any proof or sources that prove his guilt. only a few ppl know wat really happened there and they are in no position to impose judgement on this case. u show at best absolute ignorance and at worst absolute disregard and disrespect for how the criminal justice system works.



Because defending a murder =/= defending the victim. And I've given you mounds of proof and sources so I don't understand your point.


----------



## KarlaKGB

M O L K O said:


> I just want to clarify that mike brown was 100+ feet away from darren when shot, so there was no way for him to grab the gun
> 
> Because defending a murder =/= defending the victim. And I've given you mounds of proof and sources so I don't understand your point.



distance is irrelevant if brown is charging at wilson and closing that distance

do ur mounds of proof include anything that can conclusively prove that wilson shot at a fleeing brown, or that he executed a surrendering brown? or is it just more eyewitness testimony? if so, how can u say that ur eyewitness testimony absolutely believable?

i still dont understand why u bring the kkk into this. r u saying that because the kkk support wilson, that it means wilson is a kkk sympathiser???


----------



## Cory

KarlaKGB said:


> distance is irrelevant if brown is charging at wilson and closing that distance
> 
> do ur mounds of proof include anything that can conclusively prove that wilson shot at a fleeing brown, or that he executed a surrendering brown? or is it just more eyewitness testimony? if so, how can u say that ur eyewitness testimony absolutely believable?
> 
> i still dont understand why u bring the kkk into this. r u saying that because the kkk support wilson, that it means wilson is a kkk sympathiser???


Woodrow wilson was in the KKK


----------



## M O L K O

KarlaKGB said:


> distance is irrelevant if brown is charging at wilson and closing that distance
> 
> do ur mounds of proof include anything that can conclusively prove that wilson shot at a fleeing brown, or that he executed a surrendering brown? or is it just more eyewitness testimony? if so, how can u say that ur eyewitness testimony absolutely believable?
> 
> i still dont understand why u bring the kkk into this. r u saying that because the kkk support wilson, that it means wilson is a kkk sympathiser???



There were 60 eyewitness Karla, 60, but the prosecutor only chose one of those. Which is very unusual espcialy an a high profile case. I would add my sources but at this point, with you it doesn't seem to matter. Lets just blindly follow the police as they shoot the youth

and no..he's not a kkk sympathiser but a member himself under the KKK Ghoul Squad but ok


----------



## Cory

M O L K O said:


> There were 60 eyewitness Karla, 60, but the prosecutor only chose one of those. Which is very unusual espcialy an a high profile case. I would add my sources but at this point, with you it doesn't seem to matter. Lets just blindly follow the police as they shoot the youth
> 
> and no..he's not a kkk sympathiser but a member himself under the KKK Ghoul Squad but ok



Prosecutors will do anything to win they are terrible people


----------



## oath2order

M O L K O said:


> There were 60 eyewitness Karla, 60, but the prosecutor only chose one of those. Which is very unusual espcialy an a high profile case. I would add my sources but at this point, with you it doesn't seem to matter. Lets just blindly follow the police as they shoot the youth
> 
> and no..he's not a kkk sympathiser but a member himself under the KKK Ghoul Squad but ok



Well of course the prosecutor is going to choose the witness that supports his case.

Do you not understand how prosecution worjs.

Furthermore, didn't nunerous witnesses change testimony? And wasn't quite a bit conflicting?


----------



## KarlaKGB

Again you treat your sources as gospel while you question the validity of sources that don't agree with ur narrative, how can u claim to be objective? 

Anonymous link Wilson to the kkk and it becomes indisputable fact?


----------



## M O L K O

oath2order said:


> Well of course the prosecutor is going to choose the witness that supports his case.
> 
> Do you not understand how prosecution worjs.
> 
> Furthermore, didn't nunerous witnesses change testimony? And wasn't quite a bit conflicting?


I do, and you don't choose just one. And yes you're absoutely correct as they didn't interview the eyewitness until five days after the incident. 


KarlaKGB said:


> Again you treat your sources as gospel while you question the validity of sources that don't agree with ur narrative, how can u claim to be objective?
> 
> Anonymous link Wilson to the kkk and it becomes indisputable fact?



You haven't given me one link that doesn't agree with my narrative so how can I? 
I never treated my sources as gospel, I treat them as sources. 

and idk mate, you tell me.
 If you want to cut out anon (I do understand why you would, I'll give you that much) There is proof by the KKK themselves of actions and effers of KKK in ferguson, more specifically in the police workforce.


----------



## Cory

The KKK now accepts black people I heard


----------



## oath2order

You do choose just one if they suppottethe caee and they the only one to support it.

And I mean didnt the witnesses change testiminy after their initial interview


----------



## KarlaKGB

M O L K O said:


> There were 60 eyewitness Karla, 60, but the prosecutor only chose one of those.



it looks like u reject the testimony of that one eyewitness ur talking about there, witness #10 if im not mistaken


----------



## Cory

Why is this still being debated?


----------



## M O L K O

oath2order said:


> You do choose just one if they suppottethe caee and they the only one to support it.
> 
> And I mean didnt the witnesses change testiminy after their initial interview


hmm, I'm unsure. If you're really interested I have no problems looking that up tonight when I'm done with coursework. (my apologizes its close to final) and not if you're the prosecutor..the prosecutor is the one that tries to prove someone guilty you do realize that right?



KarlaKGB said:


> it looks like u reject the testimony of that one eyewitness ur talking about there, witness #10 if im not mistaken



I don't, I think #10's is just as important, however they didn't even hear one or two others besides the one that fit Darren's narrative. That's why I talk a bit more about the other eyewitness accounts because they never saw the light of day.


----------



## oath2order

Yes. And if only one witness is saying they're guilty, then thats the one you go with


----------



## M O L K O

Cory said:


> The KKK now accepts black people I heard


yea it's this new weird sanction of KKK thats supposed to go in effect. It started in November if I believe 


Cory said:


> Why is this still being debated?


because its a big issue with protests still going on. I think the one in australia is today and the one in japan is on the 5th.


----------



## Cory

M O L K O said:


> yea it's this new weird sanction of KKK thats supposed to go in effect. It started in November if I believe
> 
> because its a big issue with protests still going on. I think the one in australia is today and the one in japan is on the 5th.



well theres another one of these trials in like staten island right now


----------



## M O L K O

oath2order said:


> Yes. And if only one witness is saying they're guilty, then thats the one you go with



Exactly! and thats not what they did. They used one that made Darren look innocent. The only eyewitness that said mike brown 'charged' at darren wilson was #10.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Cory said:


> well theres another one of these trials in like staten island right now



Really? Trial like what? I'd love to read about it


----------



## oath2order

Literally why are there protests in Japan and Australia

Give me a ****in break


----------



## Cory

oath2order said:


> Literally why are there protests in Japan and Australia
> 
> Give me a ****in break



because weeaboos


----------



## oath2order

M O L K O said:


> Exactly! and thats not what they did. They used one that made Darren look innocent. The only eyewitness that said mike brown 'charged' at darren wilson was #10.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> 
> 
> Really? Trial like what? I'd love to read about it



Http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/03/justice/new-york-grand-jury-chokehold/

Enjoy the read. Quite interesting


----------



## Cory

oath2order said:


> Http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/03/justice/new-york-grand-jury-chokehold/



yes thats what i wass talkin about


----------



## Jeremy

M O L K O said:


> They used one that made Darren look innocent.



In the United States, the accused are innocent until proven guilty.


----------



## KarlaKGB

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1370526-grand-jury-volume-13.html

transcript from court on the 16th october, particularly interesting day where the witnesses seem to contradict each other.






so wat about ur assertion that



M O L K O said:


> I just want to clarify that mike brown was 100+ feet away from darren when shot, so there was no way for him to grab the gun



i would read the entire transcript, its laughable how unreliable those witnesses are, and its laughable how many of them didnt actually see what they claim to have seen. read all of that and then tell me that u want to convict and put a man away for 20+ years over evidence like that?

- - - Post Merge - - -

this stuff gets even better.



Spoiler


----------



## M O L K O

KarlaKGB said:


> https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1370526-grand-jury-volume-13.html
> 
> transcript from court on the 16th october, particularly interesting day where the witnesses seem to contradict each other.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so wat about ur assertion that
> 
> 
> 
> *i would read the entire transcript, its laughable how unreliable those witnesses are, and its laughable how many of them didnt actually see what they claim to have seen. read all of that and then tell me that u want to convict and put a man away for 20+ years over evidence like that?*
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> this stuff gets even better.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler



I will give you that. Based on the cherry picking of witnesses, the lack of an actual credible autopsy, and the inconsistency of evidence I wouldn't of indicted him either.
And I never said the witnesses were the gospel or the all mighty truth. I am starting to doubt if you have read any of the evidence or sources I have put out. I have very rarely mentioned the eye-witnesses. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else? 

Not to mention there are no photos of Mike Brown's body due to the 'battery being low' at the time.

I also want to point out the assistant wanted to make sure that the grand jury knew that 'force is able to be used in an arrest' in a document from the missouri police. This document was outlawed in 1985. 
I know you are not one for sources but here's a video of someone who has been in the business longer than we both have been alive talking about is on MSNBC.
http://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/watch/shocking-mistake-in-darren-wilson-grand-jury-364273731666

You may not agree about mike browns death, thats fine. However if you believe this case wasn't severely mishandled I don't know what to tell you.

- - - Post Merge - - -



oath2order said:


> Literally why are there protests in Japan and Australia
> 
> Give me a ****in break





oath2order said:


> Http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/03/justice/new-york-grand-jury-chokehold/
> 
> Enjoy the read. Quite interesting



idk ask them, apparently they care more about whats going on in our country than you do 

and secondly that's sad but not surprising. I'll be surprised if he even gets a court date


----------



## KarlaKGB

im not one for sources? ive read your sources and none of them come close to justifying indicting wilson? i didnt at any point say that this shooting was handled perfectly. i agree with calls to make all police officers wear cameras. i dont even know where ur trying to move the thread direction to now, but u seem to enjoy strawmanning me and putting words into my mouth. the whole time ive been talking about how the decision not to indict wilson was correct, dont try and spin that into me saying that mistakes werent made and no lessons need to be learned.


----------



## M O L K O

KarlaKGB said:


> im not one for sources? ive read your sources and none of them come close to justifying indicting wilson? i didnt at any point say that this shooting was handled perfectly. i agree with calls to make all police officers wear cameras. i dont even know where ur trying to move the thread direction to now, but u seem to enjoy strawmanning me and putting words into my mouth. the whole time ive been talking about how the decision not to indict wilson was correct, dont try and spin that into me saying that mistakes werent made and no lessons need to be learned.



The only thing I've said is that you're not one for sources. I don't know where this is coming from but ok. Honestly I'm glad that you do think cameras should be on cops/lessons should be learned/mistakes were made. Claps 4 u. Idk how im strawmanning you but ok with that. If you're feeling this way lets not debate anymore because clearly both of our views aren't going to change kbye


----------



## LambdaDelta

oath2order said:


> Http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/03/justice/new-york-grand-jury-chokehold/
> 
> Enjoy the read. Quite interesting



Aren't chokeholds illegal for officers to use, or am I misremembering?

Or is it a state-by-state law and New York is exempt?


----------



## WonderK

I see both sides here. I understand why people say Wilson was in his right to shoot Brown and why people say Wilson committed an act of murder. I'm fairly neutral on this topic, but I do have this to say:

Police officers are trained for these situations. Shooting Brown several times is excessive against an unarmed person. If you have to shoot someone, you usually shoot to disable, not to kill. He overreacted and that ended Brown's life. Officers have a plethora of options available to them. Why immediately go for the option of emptying your entire clip into someone? Even if Brown did charge Wilson, isn't one shot enough? 

Also, about the riots and looters: I don't condone any of this. Parties responsible for the looting of stores and harming of other people need to be arrested.


----------



## Mino

Anyone who buys heavily into either side of this conflict is a fool. The dearth of evidence and the media frenzy have made it impossible for anyone to know with any certainty the true nature of the events. I'm not touching this ****storm with a ten-foot pole.

Some police officers act like thugs and some witnesses lie their asses off. I haven't learned anything new from this.


----------



## LambdaDelta

Yeah, I think it goes without saying that people who are taking advantage of this entire situation deserve to be punished on their own.

I just wish the media didn't focus exclusively on them, but that's the problem with it. Nobody wants to see peaceful protesters, they all want to see the people who are making complete jackasses out of themselves and ruining their towns. Whatever pulls in ratings.



I think its honestly why I just get all my news online now. From multiple sources if its a serious enough issue.


----------



## WonderK

LambdaDelta said:


> Yeah, I think it goes without saying that people whoa re taking advantage of this entire situation deserve to be punished on their own.
> 
> I just wish the media didn't focus exclusively on them, but that's the problem with it. Nobody wants to see peaceful protesters, they all want to see the people who are making complete jackasses out of themselves and ruining their towns. Whatever pulls in ratings.
> 
> 
> 
> I think its honestly why I just get all my news online now. From multiple sources if its a serious enough issue.



Focusing on people rioting gets you the ratings.


----------



## LambdaDelta

Though honestly, even ignoring the case of Wilson being justified in his actions or not...

Shouldn't he still be charged with intentionally altering a crime scene and/or sabotaging evidence?


----------



## oath2order

LambdaDelta said:


> Aren't chokeholds illegal for officers to use, or am I misremembering?
> 
> Or is it a state-by-state law and New York is exempt?



I know its illegal for NYPD. They updated the article


----------



## WonderK

LambdaDelta said:


> Though honestly, even ignoring the case of Wilson being justified in his actions or not...
> 
> Shouldn't he still be charged with intentionally altering a crime scene and/or sabotaging evidence?



Most definitely.


----------



## KarlaKGB

WonderK said:


> Police officers are trained for these situations. Shooting Brown several times is excessive against an unarmed person. If you have to shoot someone, you usually shoot to disable, not to kill. He overreacted and that ended Brown's life. Officers have a plethora of options available to them. Why immediately go for the option of emptying your entire clip into someone? Even if Brown did charge Wilson, isn't one shot enough?



WRONG

anyone who has spent some time in self defence/firearms circles knows that 'shoot to disable' is a hollywood myth and that the reality is that if ur in a situation where u need to shoot, ur not in a position to place shots in "disabling" spots. as one firearms instructor says:


> 1) Shooting to wound is “intentional maiming”. Intentional Maiming has been a tort and a crime since the Laws of King Stephen, circa 1150 AD. It is lawful under many circumstance to cause the death of someone while defending yourself, it is NEVER lawful to “intentionally merely wound”. That’s maiming.   Even if the Grand Jury no-bills you and they probably would in most jurisdictions, the civil case would ruin you.
> 
> An actor can (in most places- certainly in Texas) shoot a burglar to defend your home, if Mr. Burglar dies its tough luck on him. If he’s crippled, it’s tough luck on him too. On the other hand, the actor cannot PURPOSELY merely injure his assailant and cause an amputation or a life in a wheelchair. If you do, you will be paying him forever.
> 
> 2) Shooting to wound is extremely difficult – the Lone Ranger was able to do it, but could most real people?  Even for an excellent shot who practices a LOT, hitting a knee or a gun-holding hand, in the dark, during a gun fight with the adrenaline pumping while ducking incoming bullets is probably an impossible task. Even wounded bad guys may choose to fight on and perhaps wind up killing you anyway.
> 
> 3) Shooting to wound expends precious ammo and critical seconds trying to non-lethally solve a deadly force problem. During this silly exercise you might get shot, so the maneuver puts YOU and YOURS in additional deadly danger. If Mr. Bad Guy center punches you while you are trying to shoot the gun from his hand, will he be merciful and kind to your survivors? In other words, “shoot to wound” puts you at more risk, and garners no value to you if you fail.
> 
> 4) Shooting to wound suggests that the actor (the Good Guy) was NOT in “fear for his life”. If the actor truly feared for his life, he wouldn’t have hesitated to try to kill the assailant. In many jurisdictions, you MUST be in fear for your life before using deadly force; admitting to attempting to “merely wound” undercuts the assertion that the good guys life was in jeopardy.
> 
> 5) It is bad tactics. As noted in 3) above, it may get YOU killed.
> 
> As for “Shoot to Kill”- this is a meaningless term.
> 
> We don’t shoot to kill, we SHOOT TO STOP an unlawful deadly attack or armed felonious action. Many times this will result in the death of the attacker, but that is truly not a required outcome. If the Bad Guy throws up his hands and surrenders, that’s just as good result- he stopped attacking me, he abandoned his armed felonious action. If he leaves the scene in handcuffs in a deputy’s car rather than in the Medical Examiner’s van, it is all the same to me.


educate urself. go to a range and shoot a handgun, and u might realise its not as easy as it looks in hollywood. then do it under time pressure and see how u fair. and then imagine doing it when u have real bad guys who want to do u harm. the fact that u use the word 'clip' shows how hopelessly clueless u r about firearms


----------



## WonderK

KarlaKGB said:


> WRONG
> 
> anyone who has spent some time in self defence/firearms circles knows that 'shoot to disable' is a hollywood myth and that the reality is that if ur in a situation where u need to shoot, ur not in a position to place shots in "disabling" spots. as one firearms instructor says:
> 
> educate urself. go to a range and shoot a handgun, and u might realise its not as easy as it looks in hollywood. then do it under time pressure and see how u fair. and then imagine doing it when u have real bad guys who want to do u harm. the fact that u use the word 'clip' shows how hopelessly clueless u r about firearms



He still had other options to disable Brown. He didn't have to resort to his firearm.


----------



## LambdaDelta

KarlaKGB said:


> WRONG
> 
> anyone who has spent some time in self defence/firearms circles knows that 'shoot to disable' is a hollywood myth and that the reality is that if ur in a situation where u need to shoot, ur not in a position to place shots in "disabling" spots. as one firearms instructor says:
> 
> educate urself. go to a range and shoot a handgun, and u might realise its not as easy as it looks in hollywood. then do it under time pressure and see how u fair. and then imagine doing it when u have real bad guys who want to do u harm. the fact that u use the word 'clip' shows how hopelessly clueless u r about firearms



In which case a firearm should be used as a back-against-the-wall last resort, not the first option presented.


----------



## KarlaKGB

WonderK said:


> He still had other options to disable Brown. He didn't have to resort to his firearm.



1. now ur changing the topic, i hope u at least accept that there is no arbitrary 'limit' to the number of shots u can fire at someone, and that shooting to wound/disable is a fallacy

2. maybe he did, maybe he didnt. its known that he did not carry taser. perhaps he had a baton, i dont know. none of us know exactly wat the situation was on that street. why shud he risk losing in a hand to hand fight with a big guy like brown? he needs to consider wat brown might do if he takes control of his gun? why did brown have to charge at him despite warnings? we dont even know what really happened and as such we are in no position to judge whether or not using his firearm was an appropriate use of force. stop making blanket statements from ur armchair behind ur computer


----------



## LambdaDelta

Also, if Brown really was close enough to have attempted to grab the gun, I see no reason why he couldn't of shot to disable.

Plus as was mentioned before, if Brown was running away, then Wilson should of called for backup. Not decide to deal with the situation using force on his own.


----------



## KarlaKGB

LambdaDelta said:


> In which case a firearm should be used as a back-against-the-wall last resort, not the first option presented.



so tell me how u know that it wasnt used as a last resort, and cite the (conclusively proven) narrative of events in which that applies. oh wait, there is no narrative of events that can be conclusively proven. and as such, ur in no position to say if he had or didnt have his back against the wall.


----------



## LambdaDelta

KarlaKGB said:


> its known that he did not carry taser.



honestly his whole department should be charged for this imo

since iirc wasn't there only one in the entire department?


----------



## KarlaKGB

LambdaDelta said:


> Also, if Brown really was close enough to have attempted to grab the gun, I see no reason why he couldn't of shot to disable.
> 
> Plus as was mentioned before, if Brown was running away, then Wilson should of called for backup. Not decide to deal with the situation using force on his own.



if the bad guy is close enough to attempt to grab the gun, u dont have time to place a carefully aimed shot to disable. im amazed that we have so many gunfighting experts here on tbt, i need to check im not on the high road.org or something


----------



## LambdaDelta

KarlaKGB said:


> so tell me how u know that it wasnt used as a last resort, and cite the (conclusively proven) narrative of events in which that applies. oh wait, there is no narrative of events that can be conclusively proven. and as such, ur in no position to say if he had or didnt have his back against the wall.



I don't have any, just like you.

ergo, I can condemn his choice of action just as much as you condone it. it's equal ground, just with different sides


----------



## WonderK

KarlaKGB said:


> 1. now ur changing the topic, i hope u at least accept that there is no arbitrary 'limit' to the number of shots u can fire at someone, and that shooting to wound/disable is a fallacy



Wilson didn't have to shoot him multiple times. 



KarlaKGB said:


> 2. maybe he did, maybe he didnt. its known that he did not carry taser. perhaps he had a baton, i dont know. none of us know exactly wat the situation was on that street. why shud he risk losing in a hand to hand fight with a big guy like brown? he needs to consider wat brown might do if he takes control of his gun? why did brown have to charge at him despite warnings? we dont even know what really happened and as such we are in no position to judge whether or not using his firearm was an appropriate use of force. stop making blanket statements from ur armchair behind ur computer



No one knows what really happened that day. All I can say is: He didn't have to kill him. Killing someone is a last resort. Not the first option.


----------



## KarlaKGB

LambdaDelta said:


> I don't have any, just like you.
> 
> ergo, I can condemn his choice of action just as much as you condone it. it's equal ground, just with different sides



no theres a big difference between wat ur doing and wat im doing. wat ur saying is that his actions were wrong and unjustified, even tho u have no knowledge of the situation.

i was in no way condoning his actions, i was merely explaining how it could have been justified. im not the one passing judgement on his actions.

- - - Post Merge - - -



WonderK said:


> Wilson didn't have to shoot him multiple times.


so how many times is acceptable then?

and if u say that he didnt have to shoot him at all, then thats a whole different debate that we're in no position to argue because WE DONT KNOW THE FACTS



WonderK said:


> No one knows what really happened that day. All I can say is: He didn't have to kill him. Killing someone is a last resort. Not the first option.


way to contradict urself. if u don't know wat happened, then how can u so resolutely say that he didnt have to kill him?


----------



## LambdaDelta

In which case, I'd like to bring up all the evidence that would of proven there being a struggle, and as such justifying Wilson in his actions, being effectively erased.

Yes, I know this is circumstantial evidence and doesn't prove anything. But you can't deny it being suspicious how Wilson had tampered with the scene that could of been used to prove he had just cause in his actions, no? Especially as an officer, surely he'd of known his gun and the scene events took place would be vital to the case.


----------



## WonderK

KarlaKGB said:


> so how many times is acceptable then?
> 
> and if u say that he didnt have to shoot him at all, then thats a whole different debate that we're in no position to argue because WE DONT KNOW THE FACTS



Not emptying your clip into someone.



KarlaKGB said:


> way to contradict urself. if u don't know wat happened, then how can u so resolutely say that he didnt have to kill him?



He was unarmed. It was excessive force. I already said that.


----------



## lazuli

[looks at poll] welp thats 27 people im going to have to ignore forever


----------



## KarlaKGB

LambdaDelta said:


> In which case, I'd like to bring up all the evidence that would of proven there being a struggle, and as such justifying Wilson in his actions, being effectively erased.
> 
> Yes, I know this is circumstantial evidence and doesn't prove anything. But you can't deny it being suspicious how Wilson had tampered with the scene that could of been used to prove he had just cause in his actions, no? Especially as an officer, surely he'd of known his gun and the scene events took place would be vital to the case.


so basically ur changing the topic now.



WonderK said:


> Not emptying your clip into someone.
> He was unarmed. It was excessive force. I already said that.



1. wtf is a clip?
2. again ur making blanket statements that have no founding in the real world. ppl kill each other with their fists all the time. u cant unequivocally say that shooting an unarmed person is excessive force. there are so many factors that u ignore that would justify such a response.


----------



## LambdaDelta

KarlaKGB said:


> so basically ur changing the topic now.



The topic is the Ferguson case, so no. Not really.

- - - Post Merge - - -



KarlaKGB said:


> 1. wtf is a clip?



Tthe part of the gun that holds the ammo.

For someone that's spouting off gun knowledge like you know better than everyone else, I'm legit surprised you don't know this.


----------



## Alolan_Apples

Although I'm not changing my opinion on this situation, I have to agree with the tags on this thread. There are some controversies in politics that people are further apart from each other (where they can't get along with opposing views), but this one is the worst of the controversies I just mentioned. Some think Michael Brown was just doing something little while others believe he is truly a punk. But since nobody can agree with each other and if it becomes a fight, we should be done with this thread. In fact, I think the Ferguson thing must be dropped everywhere, even to those who haven't even heard of TBT or Animal Crossing. Stuff like 9/11 and the Civil War are okay to grudge against because those were serious issues that are bad enough to be recorded in history. However, stuff like Paula Deen's dismissal and the Ferguson thing hasn't even reached the bar of how bad something is where it should remain in history. I don't think the subject should be continued on for another four months while we can still grudge against the American Civil War for another 500 years. We just have to let things go.


----------



## WonderK

KarlaKGB said:


> so basically ur changing the topic now.
> 
> 
> 
> 1. wtf is a clip?
> 2. again ur making blanket statements that have no founding in the real world. ppl kill each other with their fists all the time. u cant unequivocally say that shooting an unarmed person is excessive force. there are so many factors that u ignore that would justify such a response.



There's no logical reason to shoot someone eight times if they are unarmed. This is what I've been saying for the last two pages.

You have your view and I have mine. We're walking in circles around each other.


----------



## KarlaKGB

LambdaDelta said:


> the part of the gun that holds the ammo
> 
> for someone that's spouting off gun knowledge, I'm legit surprised you don't know this



???
thats a magazine ur talking about
a clip is completely different

dont embarrass urself even further

http://www.minutemanreview.com/2008/09/clip-vs-magazine-lesson-in-firearm.html
educate urself


----------



## LambdaDelta

KarlaKGB said:


> 2. again ur making blanket statements that have no founding in the real world. ppl kill each other with their fists all the time. u cant unequivocally say that shooting an unarmed person is excessive force. there are so many factors that u ignore that would justify such a response.



Difference is one has a greater chance of killing.

X and Y can both kill so neither is more excessive than the other isn't a valid argument


----------



## KarlaKGB

LambdaDelta said:


> Difference is one has a greater chance of killing.
> 
> X and Y can both kill so neither is more excessive than the other isn't a valid argument



maybe u can write up a mathematical formula too? how can u make any judgement about excessiveness when ur not in full possession of the facts? yes, shooting an unarmed person sounds excessive in a vacuum, too bad its not applicable to real world encounters.


----------



## lazuli

Apple2012 said:


> Although I'm not changing my opinion on this situation, I have to agree with the tags on this thread. There are some controversies in politics that people are further apart from each other (where they can't get along with opposing views), but this one is the worst of the controversies I just mentioned. Some think Michael Brown was just doing something little while others believe he is truly a punk. But since nobody can agree with each other and if it becomes a fight, we should be done with this thread. In fact, I think the Ferguson thing must be dropped everywhere, even to those who haven't even heard of TBT or Animal Crossing. Stuff like 9/11 and the Civil War are okay to grudge against because those were serious issues that are bad enough to be recorded in history. However, stuff like Paula Deen's dismissal and the Ferguson thing hasn't even reached the bar of how bad something is where it should remain in history. I don't think the subject should be continued on for another four months while we can still grudge against the American Civil War for another 500 years. We just have to let things go.



g o o d b y e
ok ferguson has nothing to do with ac, why u gotta mention that
it is important to mANY people and you just say 'let it go' ?????????????
'stuff like 9/11 and the civil war are ok to grudge against because those were serious issues' 
*are you saying that ferguson is not important*


----------



## LambdaDelta

KarlaKGB said:


> ???
> thats a magazine ur talking about
> a clip is completely different
> 
> dont embarrass urself even further
> 
> http://www.minutemanreview.com/2008/09/clip-vs-magazine-lesson-in-firearm.html
> educate urself



alright, but regardless you should of known exactly what they were talking about

and posting something such as "wtf is a clip?" is just being an ass about it


----------



## Alolan_Apples

computertrash said:


> g o o d b y e
> ok ferguson has nothing to do with ac, why u gotta mention that
> it is important to mANY people and you just say 'let it go' ?????????????
> 'stuff like 9/11 and the civil war are ok to grudge against because those were serious issues'
> *are you saying that ferguson is not important*



It is important, but not that important. And why did you say "Goodbye?" That's not nice of you.


----------



## LambdaDelta

KarlaKGB said:


> maybe u can write up a mathematical formula too? how can u make any judgement about excessiveness when ur not in full possession of the facts? yes, shooting an unarmed person sounds excessive in a vacuum, too bad its not applicable to real world encounters.



are you seriously arguing that a gunshot would has an equal or less chance of killing someone than being punched does?

why do I even bother?


----------



## KarlaKGB

WonderK said:


> There's no logical reason to shoot someone eight times if they are unarmed. This is what I've been saying for the last two pages.
> 
> You have your view and I have mine. We're walking in circles around each other.



yes there are, u just have no idea because ur only experience is wat u see on hollywood where a single bullet blows a massive hole in a person and sends them flying 10 feet backwards.
how about u read this case study: http://www.policeone.com/patrol-iss...ne-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/



> again, Gamins shot dry and reloaded.
> 
> “I thought I was hitting him, but with shots going through his clothing it was hard to tell for sure. This much was certain: he kept moving and kept shooting, trying his damnedest to kill me.”
> 
> In this free-for-all, the assailant had, in fact, been struck 14 times. Any one of six of these wounds — in the heart, right lung, left lung, liver, diaphragm, and right kidney — could have produced fatal consequences…“in time,” Gramins emphasizes.


the fact is, there is no arbitrary number of shots that is "acceptable" force. there are many reasons why one shot will not stop an assailant. physiological and psychological factors.

- - - Post Merge - - -



LambdaDelta said:


> alright, but regardless you should of known exactly what they were talking about
> 
> and posting something such as "wtf is a clip?" is just being an ass about it



im just demonstrating how ridiculous it is that ppl r so ignorant about firearms can so confidently state what is and what isnt acceptable in a gunfight


----------



## oath2order

LambdaDelta said:


> are you seriously arguing that a gunshot would has an equal or less chance of killing someone than being punched does?
> 
> why do I even bother?



The argument could be made, yes. It depends on who is doing the punching.


----------



## lazuli

Apple2012 said:


> It is important, but not that important. And why did you say "Goodbye?" That's not nice of you.



because you were sayin some stuff i didnt like?????????????/

=

one day, when ferguson is in history books, all the white people will say how it was a tragedy
because racism is only racism when it was in the past amirite


----------



## Amissapanda

For all the people arguing about the witnesses---the prosecution was severely lacking and questionable in this case. They chose the only witness that coincided with Wilson's testimony. And said witness changed their story multiple times. _This was the prosecution._ This was who was supposed to be fighting to _indict_ Wilson, pretty much doing no more than _adding_ to his defense.

Here's the source: *Lawrence O'Donnell LOL Destroys Ferguson Prosecutor's (Robert McCulloch) Reliance On "Key" Witness* - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVzcrSzirrs


----------



## LambdaDelta

KarlaKGB said:


> yes there are, u just have no idea because ur only experience is wat u see on hollywood where a single bullet blows a massive hole in a person and sends them flying 10 feet backwards.
> how about u read this case study: http://www.policeone.com/patrol-iss...ne-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/



I've stated this earlier, but that's a ****ty example to use to show in how Wilson could of been justified, as the situations in the article vs this case are clearly radically different. Even going by what little we may or may not know about this case.


----------



## KarlaKGB

LambdaDelta said:


> are you seriously arguing that a gunshot would has an equal or less chance of killing someone than being punched does?
> 
> why do I even bother?



6 out of 7 ppl survive being shot by a handgun, i posted the source of that earlier in this thread. all it can take is a single punch to knock someone down, at which point ur at their mercy and it doesnt matter if u have a gun or not


----------



## oath2order

computertrash said:


> because you were sayin some stuff i didnt like?????????????/
> 
> =
> 
> one day, when ferguson is in history books, all the white people will say how it was a tragedy
> because racism is only racism when it was in the past amirite



I'm sorry but Ferguson is not likely to make it into history books of the general classes. Maybe in a college curriculum for African-American studies or a law class


----------



## LambdaDelta

oath2order said:


> The argument could be made, yes. It depends on who is doing the punching.



in general

though yeah, I will agree that punching has different factors to be had


but then again, so does firearms. different ones have different power, and then there's always the case of distance and such with many


----------



## KarlaKGB

LambdaDelta said:


> I've stated this earlier, but that's a ****ty example to use to show in how Wilson could of been justified, as the situations in the article vs this case are clearly radically different. Even going by what little we may or may not know abotu this case.



holy **** the article is simply there to refute the idea that "8 shots is excessive for an unarmed person" which is being presented as universal fact. and besides, there r no hitmarkers in real life. at a distance, u have no way of determing if ur making hits especially if they appear to be having no affect on the target


----------



## lazuli

smth i still find funny:

forensics photographer: i didnt take pictures of the crime scene because the batteries in my camera died
forensics photographer: [proceeds to follow wilson to hospital to photograph his 'injuries' with the same camera]


----------



## M O L K O

_Anyway_
To get this back on topic. 





Has anyone here personally attended a protest? 
Here's a list of places where people are attending.
http://fergusonresponse.tumblr.com/
 The turnout for my town was relatively small so I'm probably going to make plans to head to one thats a bit bigger.


----------



## Alolan_Apples

computertrash said:


> because you were sayin some stuff i didnt like?????????????/
> 
> =
> 
> one day, when ferguson is in history books, all the white people will say how it was a tragedy
> because racism is only racism when it was in the past amirite



I'm trying to minimize offensiveness and rudeness, but why are so easily offended? I hate it that people hate me for not agreeing with the popular opinion here.


----------



## WonderK

KarlaKGB said:


> yes there are, u just have no idea because ur only experience is wat u see on hollywood where a single bullet blows a massive hole in a person and sends them flying 10 feet backwards.
> how about u read this case study: http://www.policeone.com/patrol-iss...ne-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/
> 
> the fact is, there is no arbitrary number of shots that is "acceptable" force. there are many reasons why one shot will not stop an assailant. physiological and psychological factors.



Shooting to kill should never be the first option of a trained police officer if the "assailant" is unarmed.



KarlaKGB said:


> im just demonstrating how ridiculous it is that ppl r so ignorant about firearms can so confidently state what is and what isnt acceptable in a gunfight



It wasn't a gunfight.


----------



## M O L K O

oath2order said:


> I'm sorry but Ferguson is not likely to make it into history books of the general classes. Maybe in a college curriculum for African-American studies or a law class



since ur a psychic can u tell me what im having 4 dinner pls.


----------



## CookingOkasan

In other news, cops can legally choke black men to death regardless of the fact that they are essentially pleading for their lives!






if you don't see this as an excessive use of force, you're a ****ing idiot.


----------



## oath2order

M O L K O said:


> since ur a psychic can u tell me what im having 4 dinner pls.



Well considering how this happens all the time, I doubt this out of all the ones will be in the books



CookingOkasan said:


> In other news, cops can legally choke black men to death regardless of the fact that they are essentially pleading for their lives!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if you don't see this as an excessive use of force, you're a ****ing idiot.



I thought you left the thread.


----------



## LambdaDelta

oath2order said:


> Well considering how this happens all the time, I doubt this out of all the ones will be in the books



(inter)national response could help

but honestly, I have to agree with you here. even if it does get in, I imagine it'd just be for a niche course like you said and/or a small blurb of sorts. also, it probably won't even be in until like at least 50 years later, if its deemed worthwhile enough in hindsight


----------



## lazuli

people: [mentions brown's stepfather and his family's past]
people: SEE BROWN IS BAD HE IS A THUG AND DESERVED IT
[wilsons mother convicted of forgery and theft, stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars from a neighbor before she died]
people:
people:
people:
people: why u gotta bring that up that has nothing to do with the current situation


----------



## M O L K O

oath2order said:


> Well considering how this happens all the time, I doubt this out of all the ones will be in the books
> 
> 
> 
> I thought you left the thread.



u know what maybe..you're right. 
However idk man the LA riots has its place in the history books, at the least they'll just have more books written about police brutality.
[x] [x]
And more food for thought
10 worst cases of police brutality.


----------



## oath2order

computertrash said:


> people: [mentions brown's stepfather and his family's past]
> people: SEE BROWN IS BAD HE IS A THUG AND DESERVED IT
> [wilsons mother convicted of forgery and theft, stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars from a neighbor before she died]
> people:
> people:
> people:
> people: why u gotta bring that up that has nothing to do with the current situation



...Which is true. Brown's stepfather shouting to the crowd to incite their anger relates to the situation plenty more than Wilson's mother stealing money from a neighbor


----------



## M O L K O

computertrash said:


> people: [mentions brown's stepfather and his family's past]
> people: SEE BROWN IS BAD HE IS A THUG AND DESERVED IT
> [wilsons mother convicted of forgery and theft, stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars from a neighbor before she died]
> people:
> people:
> people:
> people: why u gotta bring that up that has nothing to do with the current situation



shhhhhhhhhhhhhh
That doesn't fit the narrative of darren hdu


----------



## CookingOkasan

M O L K O said:


> Has anyone here personally attended a protest?
> Here's a list of places where people are attending.
> http://fergusonresponse.tumblr.com/
> The turnout for my town was relatively small so I'm probably going to make plans to head to one thats a bit bigger.



I went out to Durham, NC the day after the jury and again on black friday. I met a ton of awesome people and standing in solidarity was great. Hopefully there will be more opportunities to go out.


----------



## KarlaKGB

CookingOkasan said:


> In other news, cops can legally choke black men to death regardless of the fact that they are essentially pleading for their lives!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if you don't see this as an excessive use of force, you're a ****ing idiot.



ah more inciteful posting, nice


----------



## CookingOkasan

oath2order said:


> I thought you left the thread.



"New **** has come to light"


----------



## oath2order

M O L K O said:


> u know what maybe..you're right.
> However idk man the LA riots has its place in the history books, at the least they'll just have more books written about police brutality.
> [x] [x]
> And more food for thought
> 10 worst cases of police brutality.



Kind of confused why number 10 is on there? She shot at them so...


----------



## Alolan_Apples

CookingOkasan said:


> In other news, cops can legally choke black men to death regardless of the fact that they are essentially pleading for their lives!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if you don't see this as an excessive use of force, you're a ****ing idiot.



That sounds more medieval than modern. While shooting has killed more people in history than other weapons combined, medieval punishments like that are extremely cruel and should be taken very seriously. I really hate police brutality.


----------



## KarlaKGB

CookingOkasan said:


> "New **** has come to light"



this is hardly new news.....


----------



## M O L K O

oath2order said:


> Kind of confused why number 10 is on there? She shot at them so...



Self defense


> The 92-year-old woman was alone inside her home when the officers burst in without warning. She fired at them with a handgun,


----------



## oath2order

M O L K O said:


> Self defense



And they shot back. In self defense.


----------



## M O L K O

oath2order said:


> And they shot back. In self defense.



tru
but maybe if they didn't go busting thru doors and holding guns scaring a 92 yr old she wouldnt need a gun. 
Either way, this case at least saw justice.
Also this proves Karls point of  shooting once and only injuring a person w2g there karl <3



> The two police officers involved in the shooting pleaded guilty to manslaughter and several other charges, and a third officer was also indicted in the murder case.


----------



## KarlaKGB

oath2order said:


> And they shot back. In self defense.



i wud side with the homeowners in that case, police ****ed up, homeowner thinks its an armed home invasion, its happened plenty of times before

eg. http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95475

there is even the story of a police chief's son who was killed by an elderly couple when he led a raid on the wrong house. police chief said that no crime was committed and that the elderly couple's response was reasonable and proportionate. i cant find a link to the story tho


----------



## LambdaDelta

M O L K O said:


> 10 worst cases of police brutality.



I love how from the looks of things, every single one of these cases has to do with black people


----------



## CookingOkasan

A big thanks to M O L K O for keeping more civil than I'm able to and for all of the sources and contribution to this thread!
heading back out of here


----------



## radical6

"how come when a black man kills a white person it's not on media?"
because justice is served 
"how come black on black crime isn't a big deal?"
because justice is still served
"so why is it different for a white man killing a black person?"
BECAUSE THEY GET AWAY WITH IT


----------



## lolipopfishsticks

justice said:


> "how come when a black man kills a white person it's not on media?"
> because justice is served
> "how come black on black crime isn't a big deal?"
> because justice is still served
> "so why is it different for a white man killing a black person?"
> BECAUSE THEY GET AWAY WITH IT



I wouldn't really call it getting away with it. This man is going to be living in fear for the rest of his life.


----------



## Yuki Nagato

justice said:


> "how come when a black man kills a white person it's not on media?"
> because justice is served
> "how come black on black crime isn't a big deal?"
> because justice is still served
> "so why is it different for a white man killing a black person?"
> BECAUSE THEY GET AWAY WITH IT



Justice has been served. A criminal was killed and an innocent man has walked away. An innocent white man.


----------



## radical6

lolipopfishsticks said:


> I wouldn't really call it getting away with it. This man is going to be living in fear for the rest of his life.


He's still got enough money to live his life in luxury. And besides, people still support him. Just change your name and people will soon forget him or what he even looks like. 

But for Tamir Rice, Darrien Hunt, etc these people are never served justice. Their killers got away. And the man who got choked by the police? They didn't indict anyone. Yeah, choking someone because they might have some cigs sounds like a good idea.


----------



## hulaburger

Mino said:


> Anyone who buys heavily into either side of this conflict is a fool. The dearth of evidence and the media frenzy have made it impossible for anyone to know with any certainty the true nature of the events. I'm not touching this ****storm with a ten-foot pole.
> 
> Some police officers act like thugs and some witnesses lie their asses off. I haven't learned anything new from this.



this is the most reasonable post ITT


----------



## radical6

Yuki Nagato said:


> Justice has been served. A criminal was killed and an innocent man has walked away. An innocent white man.



"innocent white man" who's old police force was disbanded due to excessive racism?

"a criminal" even though brown was described as a gentle kid? hell, he could've joined the football team but he didn't want to. he didn't want to hurt anyone. all his friends and family described him as sweet and kind. even his TEACHERS.


----------



## KarlaKGB

justice said:


> "innocent white man" who's old police force was disbanded due to excessive racism?
> 
> "a criminal" even though brown was described as a gentle kid? hell, he could've joined the football team but he didn't want to. he didn't want to hurt anyone. all his friends and family described him as sweet and kind. even his TEACHERS.



oh please, theyre always mommas little sweet innocent boy who wouldnt hurt a fly. how can u even take those comments at face value??


----------



## radical6

KarlaKGB said:


> oh please, theyre always mommas little sweet innocent boy who wouldnt hurt a fly. how can u even take those comments at face value??



if the whole community loved him and **** then ?? I don't hear teachers coming out and saying that their dead students were angels. but even if he was mean or not, he's not a criminal. he paid for those cigs anyway, there's film evidence he did. there was no reason for Wilson to confront brown. even if there was a struggle, Wilson had no right to confront brown at that time???


----------



## M O L K O

Yuki Nagato said:


> Justice has been served. A criminal was killed and an innocent man has walked away. An innocent white man.



Thank you for bringing a bit of humor to the thread, I think we all needed a good laugh to ease the tensions


----------



## LambdaDelta

M O L K O said:


> Thank you for bringing a bit of humor to the thread, I think we all needed a good laugh to ease the tensions



I

I think they're being serious


----------



## Alolan_Apples

I hope the rioting ends soon. We get how painful it was.


----------



## M O L K O

LambdaDelta said:


> I
> 
> I think they're being serious


sadly I think you're right


Spoiler: unpopular opinion time



I honestly think they should just lock this thread, at this point all thats left is a bunch of pot stir-ers wanting to start trouble. Even before there were people who disagreed and it was cool, ppl were able to say  why and w/ sources now its just a circus of 'im not racist butttt 'insert racist termonology'


----------



## LambdaDelta

M O L K O said:


> sadly I think you're right
> 
> 
> Spoiler: unpopular opinion time
> 
> 
> 
> I honestly think they should just lock this thread, at this point all thats left is a bunch of pot stir-ers wanting to start trouble. Even before there were people who disagreed and it was cool, ppl were able to say  why and w/ sources now its just a circus of 'im not racist butttt 'insert racist termonology'



no, this is a good opinion and I'm honestly surprised it's not happened yet


----------



## Jarrad

What word would you use to define the protests? An uprising? Act? I don't know. I'm all for it, however I'm 100% against something which it is giving birth to.

A lot of people, often of an African-American ethnicity, have started to assume that it's okay to single out white people and in return show unprovoked racism towards white people. Just because a person is white does not mean that they cannot be subject to racism. Everybody has a race, so any form of racism is wrong.

I mean, just look at all of the s**t on tumblr that this thing has spewed; white people this and white people that. Some even going to lengths to make fun of how pale white people are etc. It would be completely different if people were doing this about black people instead (which some are and have been doing for years). 

People are petitioning for the rights of black people when they should be petitioning for the rights of *everybody.*

- - - Post Merge - - -



M O L K O said:


> sadly I think you're right
> 
> 
> Spoiler: unpopular opinion time
> 
> 
> 
> I honestly think they should just lock this thread, at this point all thats left is a bunch of pot stir-ers wanting to start trouble. Even before there were people who disagreed and it was cool, ppl were able to say  why and w/ sources now its just a circus of 'im not racist butttt 'insert racist termonology'



Ignore them. If people are trying to evoke a negative response by posting something which others will find disrespectful then just ignore them. Don't even spare them the thought. Pretend that they don't exist, that's the best reaction you can give anybody that does that kind of stuff.


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## KarlaKGB

i really want to read this book

http://www.amazon.com/Scam-Black-Le...1417551427&sr=1-3&keywords=jesse+lee+peterson



> In this provocative book, Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson, the most outspoken critic of the civil-rights establishment in America today, lays bare its corrupt leadership, courageously taking aim at the bigest names―Jesse Jackson, Louis Farrakhan, Al Sharpton, Maxine Waters, among others―claiming they are nothing more than scam artists profiting off the hatred and disorder they foster in the black community. Peterson insists it's time to throw off the oppression of the established black leadership and stand for the American ideals of freedom, personal responsibility, free enterprise, and moral principle.


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## lazuli

Spoiler:  






Yuki Nagato said:


> Justice has been served. A criminal was killed and an innocent man has walked away. An innocent white man.



ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha



justice said:


> "innocent white man" who's old police force was disbanded due to excessive racism?
> 
> "a criminal" even though brown was described as a gentle kid? hell, he could've joined the football team but he didn't want to. he didn't want to hurt anyone. all his friends and family described him as sweet and kind. even his TEACHERS.



thank u



M O L K O said:


> Thank you for bringing a bit of humor to the thread, I think we all needed a good laugh to ease the tensions



ikr. such funny



LambdaDelta said:


> I
> 
> I think they're being serious



which is why its funny



isnt it funny how wilson keeps changing his story
again
and again
and again


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## M O L K O

I'm honestly more disgusted that the piece of filth is still getting donations and is being hung as some kind of 'american hero.'


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## Yuki Nagato

The man has been found innocent. You can't change that: *none *of you are lawyers, judges, _witnesses_... Let's be frank. You don't know what you're talking about.


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## LambdaDelta

the court case is the verdict, but that doesn't mean its the absolute truth


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## CookingOkasan

I'm talking about institutionalized racism and how this sham of a case can happen and does happen every day and that bodycams won't change anything and evidence and innocent rulings won't change anything when the problem is that our government system was set up to deny black society and doesn't value black lives.


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## Watchingthetreetops

I guess I'm just really disappointed.  I mean....I don't know about everyone else here, but a) I don't think the color of a person determines their worth, and b) I was part of a generation that tried to tell us at every opportunity that being different is okay.  I can't believe that people are treated in such a way.  I don't know.  I don't have an adequate amount of reliable information to really make a decision, but I have seen racism alive and active in the US.  Like....if you say it isn't an issue, I'm sorry, but you're wrong.  There's been progress, but to quote an age old saying: we've won battles, but not the war.

It's a major loss.  For the families.  For the community that's suffering because of the riots.  It's degrading for the country.  And I am just very disappointed and sad.


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## M O L K O

Yuki Nagato said:


> The man has been found innocent. You can't change that: *none *of you are lawyers, judges, _witnesses_... Let's be frank. You don't know what you're talking about.



I would love your sources on how the case was a fair trial, maybe some evidence of darrens injuries and maybe so evidence on why he didn't file anything until days later?


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## Kaiaa

I'm ashamed at some of you, including those of you who made those tags (yes, I can see who you are). This has nothing to do with Ferguson, and I know these videos are very old but I think it's worth a watch. Here's the Brown-eye Blue-eye Experiment in which a group of people are separated by light colored eyes and dark colored eyes. 

Watch how people react when their light colored eyes are the reason for their mistreatment. While you watch, think of yourself in that position. 

Which group are you in? 
Is it right to treat people differently based on their eye color? Why?
What advantages/disadvantages do the light colored eye group have? What about the dark colored eye group? 
How can you connect this experiment with racism seen today?
How did these videos make you feel?



Spoiler: WARNING:May upset some viewers! These videos are OLD and may contain words and phrases that aren't for young viewers. You have been warned!
















If you would like to answer these questions after you watch these videos, you may PM me and we can talk about this maturely. Racism is a real thing in today's society, yet we can't change the society without first changing ourselves. Throw away any stereotypes you've heard and instead get to know a person before you judge them. And one more thing, don't throw race in someones face or at a problem. The less we use race as an excuse for our actions or someones actions the more we'll see things the way they really are.


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