# Anti-Gaming Feminists get BTFO



## Reindeer (Sep 17, 2014)

Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn can get ****ed.
Though I guess one of them already did.

This video basically sums up what gamers have been saying to the feminists that think gaming reinforces "the patriarchy", but since it's a person with funds and make-up it's finally being listened to. Sounds eerily familiar to what Anita did.


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## West8991 (Sep 17, 2014)

While I am not saying that they are horrible, I think that they shouldn't think that games are all about sexualizing women. I mean there is such thing as people who believe that men are as well not treated equally, and I agree with that statement. I will never be some guy with muscles, and be an ultimate bad***. The thing is though, It is really not a big deal. This topic should just die off in general, and the two you mentioned are constant reminders of how persistent people are.

- - - Post Merge - - -

Anyhow, I think this topic might get a bit controversial. There are people who agree with this everywhere. I mean you could even consider me a male Feminist, most of the time I don't think that women are treated fairly. But yeah, I would check with a mod or something before things go down here.


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## Reindeer (Sep 17, 2014)

I'm all for equality, but when they are starting to yell that gamers as a group should just be destroyed, they're going too far. Apart from that, entire websites are using these kinds of situations for clickbait (especially Gawker-owned sites), and there's way more than just the two people I mentioned that are shouting about how gamers and games as a medium are crap.

It's when you see the double standard they set for themselves like Zoe Quinn did that it all starts becoming a bit odd. Why is she so concerned about sexism and then allows herself to use others? Apart from betraying the person she was in a relationship with, this was with multiple people and only done so she could get a ****ty game onto the market. Her reasoning behind it makes no sense either, as there are plenty of women in the gaming industry that didn't **** their way in.

I think if we are to take these feminists seriously, we are demeaning the women already working on high profile titles like Halo, Assassin's Creed, Uncharted, etc., because they are creating things that are loved by hardcore gamers and respected for that. Shouting about how all males are scum and games should be changed to fit the radical feminist views only makes them dislike you, as you're directly attacking their hobby.

The fact that Anita Sarkeesian is the main advisor for Mirror's Edge 2 alone is enough to make me decide to not buy it, and that's saying a lot seeing as ME2 is a game I've been looking forward to for years.


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## 35mm (Sep 17, 2014)

A lot of video games do portray women as sexual objects. It is definitely a problem, but bashing video games all together is awful. But yeea I do agree there's a fair amount of sexism in a lot of video games (ahem, WoW)


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## okun0ichio (Sep 17, 2014)

Someone introduce those feminists to otome games-

oh wait.

they'll bash that too.

they'll bash everything and anything.


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## 35mm (Sep 17, 2014)

West8991 said:


> I mean there is such thing as people who believe that men are as well not treated equally, and I agree with that statement. I will never be some guy with muscles, and be an ultimate bad***.



Multiply that feeling by 88% and you have what girls feel constantly... You don't need to be a badass,, but girls need to be a lot of things.

- - - Post Merge - - -



okun0ichio said:


> Someone introduce those feminists to otome games-
> 
> oh wait.
> 
> ...



Some feminists are pretty bad, and yes some of them bash everything. But those are the stupid ones, ignore them.


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## SmokeyB (Sep 17, 2014)

They're hard to ignore these days. The good ones are rare, especially the ones where you can have a rational conversation/debate with. And it's generally the bad ones who speak out, generalize or are just man-haters. It's just too divided. Anita is a scam artist and Zoe Quinn...jesus.



> Multiply that feeling by 88% and you have what girls feel constantly... You don't need to be a badass,, but girls need to be a lot of things.



I can assure you, as a shorter than average height bisexual Asian man who experiences racism almost every week, I really don't think so. We can't say this or that gender has it worse than the other, there are too many factors to consider.


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## Reindeer (Sep 17, 2014)

SmokeyB said:


> I can assure you, as a shorter than average height bisexual Asian man who experiences racism almost every week, I really don't think so. We can't say this or that gender has it worse than the other, there are too many factors to consider.


There's two sides to consider here as well: the men and women.

If men play video games and decide that the only women they're going to like are the oversexualized ones in video games, they're going to have a bad time, since not many actual women are like that. I think that's not a problem either, it's just that hardcore gamers are fairly reclusive, and it's due to that asocial behavior that people decide to see them as wanting more from a possible partner than is acceptable.

On the other hand, if women look at video games and decide that they have to live up to those characters, that's another problem. Nobody is expecting that they are going to be exactly like women in media, unless they are shallow and don't care for things like personality and traits. In that sense, they're only bringing themselves down if they feel they _need_ to be a certain way.

It's fine to expect some things from people that you'd like to become your partner, after all if things go well you'll be spending the rest of your life with them. But if things are that severe then it's not really the fault of video games, but rather the fault of the person. And in that sense, any other hobby of theirs could've influenced their views and beliefs. If these dudes with already present mental issues, since that's really all it would be, would be more into reading comic books than playing video games, then would they not expect their girlfriend to be like Black Cat or Starfire? Just a thought.

tl;dr: It's not the media, it's the people.


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## Cudon (Sep 17, 2014)

35mm said:


> Multiply that feeling by 88% and you have what girls feel constantly... You don't need to be a badass,, but girls need to be a lot of things.


As a female, I disagree. There's no gender that ''has it worse'' both have their problems. 

Also I think men have more things expected from them, they're the ones who should buy presents for the girl, should be strong, mature etc etc while all that is asked from a girl is that they're attractive in some way. And even though there are plenty of girls who have to wear make up on a daily basis it's usually a choice not something to be forced into and tbh not using make up isn't that big of a deal as long as you're clean. Also females get alot of benefits in certain areas like idk, getting hired into a company over a man with better score. Being a female isn't too bad.


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## okun0ichio (Sep 17, 2014)

Dinomates said:


> As a female, I disagree. There's no gender that ''has it worse'' both have their problems.
> 
> Also I think men have more things expected from them, they're the ones who should buy presents for the girl, should be strong, mature etc etc while all that is asked from a girl is that they're attractive in some way. And even though there are plenty of girls who have to wear make up on a daily basis it's usually a choice not something to be forced into and tbh not using make up isn't that big of a deal as long as you're clean. *Also females get alot of benefits in certain areas like idk, getting hired into a company over a man with better score. *Being a female isn't too bad.



Not true. Research has shown that women earn much less than their male counterparts with the same qualifications and women are often seen as less capable then men in areas such as IT even though they might have the same amount of experience.

Not like there aren't females who are mean to their boyfriends but there are guys who treat their girlfriends badly and don't follow expectations of being a "gentleman"  too.

You would also more often than not see unattractive men criticising women for being unattractive while the other way around rarely happens. Criticising someone for such a superficial reason is not right either way but the fact that unattractive women can't do it because they would be rebutted more severely says something.

Women would also have to live with the fear of being assaulted at any time while men rarely have to deal with this. Just look at how women are treated in India.

Women are still seen as less worthy in today's society, really.

Feel free to correct anything that I might have been wrong about.


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## KarlaKGB (Sep 17, 2014)

#gamergate was long overdue


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## Reindeer (Sep 17, 2014)

okun0ichio said:


> You would also more often than not see unattractive men criticising women for being unattractive while the other way around rarely happens. Criticising someone for such a superficial reason is not right either way but the fact that unattractive women can't do it because they would be rebutted more severely says something.


Sorry, but from personal experience I can tell you that this is pretty wrong. It differs by person and group of course, but I've found that women are more likely to negatively comment on somebody's looks of either gender than men are. Maybe your experience in this is different, but when you've moved through various regions of a country and mostly seen that kind of persistent discrimination from girls/women, with boys/men having a more relaxed stance about people's looks regardless of gender, it kinda sticks out as being wrong.

What I will admit is that as soon as somebody is unattractive and also a bit odd, the male gender tends to get a lot meaner. But in that case it's a multitude of factors already. It's still superficial, but it's not just the looks.

In regards to your other points, if men are seen as creatures who dominate the female gender and only think about gaining sexual relations with them through this oppression, then don't you think that men are seen as lesser beings as well? Sexism goes both ways, you know, and both sides are equally guilty of it.


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## The Peanut Butter Fish (Sep 17, 2014)

I find it a little ironic that she has a book behind her that's title is "Who really cares"


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## Cudon (Sep 17, 2014)

okun0ichio said:


> Not true. Research has shown that women earn much less than their male counterparts with the same qualifications and women are often seen as less capable then men in areas such as IT even though they might have the same amount of experience.
> 
> Not like there aren't females who are mean to their boyfriends but there are guys who treat their girlfriends badly and don't follow expectations of being a "gentleman"  too.
> 
> ...


If you're talking about wage gap I think it's been proven to be false. http://billmoyers.com/2014/04/08/debunking-the-myth-of-a-mythical-gender-pay-gap/
Also one of the reasons for women to get lesser pay is because they don't always run after the risky jobs. Most women pick something safe like being a teacher, which is not something easy to get fired from unless you do something really wrong to your students. Women are also less endearing about getting a raise. 

Of course there are. There are *******s of all races, genders etc etc.

Yeah but that's how media shows off women. The role of a woman is to look pretty and be a ''reward'' according to media. Men on the other hand should be strong and care for their prized ''reward'' Media innit. Also I see plenty of women be really rude to the geeky kind of men, but again the stereotypic role of a female is to be a pretty object so the shaming of less attractive women is understandable. But then again anyone whos willing to go the lengths of shaming a woman for not being attractive is not really a good person to begin with and hopefully will realize what they do wrong once they mature up. 

Women are known to be less powerful than men in physical strength so they're easier to assault. Of course it's wrong and all but that's how it is :u  Not being assaulted isn't a ''privilege'' of men though. Women are just easier targets. Also even though a man being assaulted is rarer than a woman being assaulted please be a good person and treat it the same. I've seen plenty of men being ridiculed for being raped and having to hold it in. 

How come? I mean it kinda makes sense, men used to be considered more useful in the past and while were over that phase there could still be some effects lingering. However from what I've seen I think men and women are treated the same worth wise.


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## amarillo (Sep 17, 2014)

I just need to point out one thing: There's no thing as being "reverse sexist" Women can't be sexist towards men and let me explain why.

A person who does not exist with the necessary institutionalized power and privilege of belonging to a dominant in-group, cannot be racist, sexist, ableist, etc.  Women can certainly be prejudiced or discriminatory against men (which is not acceptable either) but they cannot be sexist or “reverse sexist” simply because they lack the institutional power to systematize their prejudice against men.

Men exist with male privilege, which is unearned privilege and institutional power granted to them just for being men.  Since maleness is only one aspect of a man’s identity and other factors such as race, class, sexual orientation, etc. also shape one’s identity, every man experiences his male privilege in a different way.  Despite these differences, male privilege is something that all men benefit from.  Male privilege is so normalized and embedded in society that it operates stealthily so that many men, and women, may not even be aware of it.  Alas even has a male privilege checklist. 

I'm not saying that everyone here doesn't have personal experiences that they've witnessed or felt themselves, but this is going by the majority of the population. The MAJORITY. 

Back to the issue at hand. I didn't watch the video, but there is a hell of a lot of straight up sexism in games and male characters that are buff beyond anything physically possible are meant as being a power image that men want to be themselves and not intended for the female gaze. I work in the gaming industry and there are plenty of things that as an employee, I don't have a say on, so it's not to say the company is going to actually think about their female employees when they know sex sells.


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## Reindeer (Sep 17, 2014)

amarillo said:


> I just need to point out one thing: There's no thing as being "reverse sexist" Women can't be sexist towards men and let me explain why.


There's no such thing as "reverse sexism" because sexism applies to both sexes. Simple as that.


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## MrPicklez (Sep 17, 2014)

LOL Zoe Quinn

LOL Anita Sarkeesian

#GamerGate #FiveGuysBurgersAndFries


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## Fawning (Sep 17, 2014)

Dinomates said:


> However from what I've seen I think men and women are treated the same worth wise.



Really? Do men have to be forced into FGM? Do men get shipped off to be forced into a marriage when they're 14 and younger? Do men get told it's their fault when they get raped? I could go on and on but there is A LOT of things that completely go against what you're saying. I couldn't read what you said and just bite my tongue. 

Also, I'm not 100% sure about this as I don't live in America, but has there not just been some vote about getting equal pay and ALL of the republicans, including the women, voted against it. The wage gap is a thing.


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## Delphine (Sep 17, 2014)

Is it going to be another thread were people just talk for themselves and no one opens their mind? Sigh...

Would just like to say that:

1. You have to agree that a lot of videogames, and at the same time, a lot of movies/music clips/TV shows and so on and so on... show sexualized women, and/or women as objects. However, feminists are extremists and they're making everything worst by always yelling and arguing with everyone. Plus, they need to reconsider their priorities. Anyway. I get what you're saying. They can be annoying. So I would say they are not wrong for the message, but they spread it in the worst way possible.

2. What is wrong with people saying sexism can only affect women? Once again, just because something is rarer doesn't not mean it's less bad. People need to get out of their houses, meet new people, read more, watch more documentaries, or just to educate themselves before talking too fast.


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## Fawning (Sep 17, 2014)

Sigh, I come on this website to NOT see crap like this but here we are


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## Reindeer (Sep 17, 2014)

Fawning said:


> Really? Do men have to be forced into FGM? Do men get shipped off to be forced into a marriage when they're 14 and younger? Do men get told it's their fault when they get raped? I could go on and on but there is A LOT of things that completely go against what you're saying. I couldn't read what you said and just bite my tongue.
> 
> Also, I'm not 100% sure about this as I don't live in America, but has there not just been some vote about getting equal pay and ALL of the republicans, including the women, voted against it. The wage gap is a thing.


In the same sense, do women stand a chance to lose their children even when they're the only good parent? Do they get forced to die for their country? Do they get ignored when they get raped or abused, instead being told to "man up"?

Suffering isn't gender-specific. Women have their suffering whereas men have theirs. If you're the main earner in a household, you pay the house, food, tuition, everything, and you can lose it all as soon as your significant other decides to leave... how much privilege do you really have?


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## Brackets (Sep 17, 2014)

Delphine said:


> However, feminists are extremists and they're making everything worst by always yelling and arguing with everyone.



Umm no, SOME feminists are extremists - maybe you've only seen the hardcore feminists online, but I am one and know loads in real life that aren't in your face.


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## Fawning (Sep 17, 2014)

I can't be bothered to find it now but the whole 'women always get the kid' is outdated and completely untrue. I've seen lots of articles, surveys and statistics showing that it's actually the man who gets custody the most.

Lots of women want to go in the army but are deemed too weak, which is part of the patriarchy, which is what feminism wants to abolish. 

Men telling men to grow up etc when they have been raped is part of the patriarchy, which is what feminism wants to abolish.


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## Cudon (Sep 17, 2014)

amarillo said:


> I just need to point out one thing: There's no thing as being "reverse sexist" Women can't be sexist towards men and let me explain why.
> 
> A person who does not exist with the necessary institutionalized power and privilege of belonging to a dominant in-group, cannot be racist, sexist, ableist, etc.  Women can certainly be prejudiced or discriminatory against men (which is not acceptable either) but they cannot be sexist or “reverse sexist” simply because they lack the institutional power to systematize their prejudice against men.
> 
> ...


''Privilege'', ''Ableism'' Uhh yeah no thank you. 

In my opinion character design barely has anything to do with the meat of the game and is there just to promote the game. It's there to please the fans of the genre and if it happens to be a fighting game for an example the females have small amounts of clothing since that's a standard for the genre. In a fighting game you want your characters look like they can kick some butt and it seems like many think that a female fighting in small amounts of clothing is badass and empowering, which is why alot of female super heroes have that aspect. However at the same time there's people like Anita who don't even try to understand it and just call it sexism.


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## MozzarellaSticks (Sep 17, 2014)

In general gaming and gaming culture is pretty sexist. Despite nearly half of gamers being female, and teenage boys being one of the smallest demographics, games are still marketed to teenage boys. So developers make them for teenage boys. When you look at gaming industry wise it's a mostly male dominated industry. And the women that are in it have spoken up about the sexism within. Yet games that have a diverse panel tend to do better. Because gamers are diverse. We can't keep trying to cater to a small demographic.

That said, there are those that take it too far. But we do have to recognize that there is a problem.


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## Fawning (Sep 17, 2014)

Feminism helps men more than you think. You should research it before you assume feminists are man hating, bra burning hippies.


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## Delphine (Sep 17, 2014)

Annachie said:


> Umm no, SOME feminists are extremists - maybe you've only seen the hardcore feminists online, but I am one and know loads in real life that aren't in your face.



Ah sorry, I come from the country where 95% of feminists are FEMEN and the other 5% are just stupid. It's called France and feminists just have bad reputation, and aren't any help with solving women's issues, which is sad because I actually defend several feminists ideals. Don't know how things go in Scotland (visited the country last summer and loved it but got more interested in the question of independence and not in feminism), so, sorry if I offended you.


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## Reindeer (Sep 17, 2014)

Delphine said:


> 1. You have to agree that a lot of videogames, and at the same time, a lot of movies/music clips/TV shows and so on and so on... show sexualized women, and/or women as objects. However, feminists are extremists and they're making everything worst by always yelling and arguing with everyone. Plus, they need to reconsider their priorities. Anyway. I get what you're saying. They can be annoying. So I would say they are not wrong for the message, but they spread it in the worst way possible.


I'd rather see it as two separate groups: the feminists and the radical feminists. The first group is people that are out for actual equality (equal opportunity, not equal outcomes) for both sexes, and they have pretty much succeeded in doing so since the wage gap has pretty much been eliminated over the last few decades. See Dinomates' link for more information on that.
On the other hand, the radical feminists ignore all male suffrage and deny there is any hate towards them, all the while spewing hate towards men. They only care about the female viewpoint and wish that "male privilege" and "the patriarchy" would disappear.

It's the latter group which is attacking gaming, and it's also the loudest group in the internet shouting contest in the last few years. There's quite a few on here as well. I think that if they keep believing in all the one-sided reports they read they're just blinding themselves and making it harder on themselves, rather than society.
In that sense, see it as a brony who wears a pony tail all over the place. It's noticeable, and while many people won't say it outright, it's odd. It's the behavior of the radical feminists that scare people off or make them say hurtful things, not "the patriarchy".



Delphine said:


> 2. What is wrong with people saying sexism can only affect women? Once again, just because something is rarer doesn't mean it's less bad. People need to get out of their houses, meet new people, read more, watch more documentaries, or just to educate themselves before talking too fast.


Thank you for saying that.



Fawning said:


> I can't be bothered to find it now but the whole 'women always get the kid' is outdated and completely untrue. I've seen lots of articles, surveys and statistics showing that it's actually the man who gets custody the most.


If you're able to find it, I'll read it.



Fawning said:


> Lots of women want to go in the army but are deemed too weak, which is part of the patriarchy, which is what feminism wants to abolish.


Yes, that's all fine and dandy, but again. Are they *FORCED* to join the army? Men are seen as expendable, since they can just be thrown into the army willy-nilly to die for their country. Meanwhile women can sit safe at home, taking care of the family and children. That's the whole thought behind it.
Until both sexes are either forced or not forced to join at a certain age, there is no equality on either side.

And another thing: If this so-called patriarchy existed, enforcing the rule of men over women, why would these people go out of their way to make sure that more men died than women?



Fawning said:


> Men telling men to grow up etc when they have been raped is part of the patriarchy, which is what feminism wants to abolish.


That's funny, since most people that have told me to "man up" were women.

Again, there is no patriarchy. You've been deluded.


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## Fawning (Sep 17, 2014)

Delphine said:


> Ah sorry, I come from the country where 95% of feminists are FEMEN and the other 5% are just stupid. It's called France and feminists just have bad reputation, and aren't any help with solving women's issues, which is sad because I actually defend several feminists ideals. Don't know how things go in Scotland (visited the country last summer and loved it but got more interested in the question of independence and not in feminism), so, sorry if I offended you.



It's a shame that it's like that in France. It's hard to get women's issues taken seriously (for example, this thread) people do take it too far and ruins the reputations for others.


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## Cudon (Sep 17, 2014)

Fawning said:


> Really? Do men have to be forced into FGM? Do men get shipped off to be forced into a marriage when they're 14 and younger? Do men get told it's their fault when they get raped? I could go on and on but there is A LOT of things that completely go against what you're saying. I couldn't read what you said and just bite my tongue.
> 
> Also, I'm not 100% sure about this as I don't live in America, but has there not just been some vote about getting equal pay and ALL of the republicans, including the women, voted against it. The wage gap is a thing.


I don't think most developed countries have 14 year old girls marry. Those countries that do though are not developed and live in the past where this was usual. Victim blaming is horrible and nobody should do it. Victim blaming isn't a female only thing though, when it comes to rape men have that + their cases aren't taken seriously since they're men and men being raped is apparently not a problem to be taken seriously.

Also from what I've read the wage gap is not affected by money that is received for child support and if that is counted in then the wage gap suddenly disappears. Infact I've seen many say the wage gap is a positive thing for women with all things accounted.

Also just because girls are forced to marry early in undeveloped countries doesn't mean that men suddenly have this privilege, they might have an edge in those countries but a 14 year old getting force married does not affect the people of the us and their ''privileges''


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## Ashtot (Sep 17, 2014)

I don't know why people are only saying that women are seen as sex objects in gaming because it's the same in the real world.


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## MozzarellaSticks (Sep 17, 2014)

Reindeer said:


> In the same sense, do women stand a chance to lose their children even when they're the only good parent? Do they get forced to die for their country? Do they get ignored when they get raped or abused, instead being told to "man up"?
> 
> Suffering isn't gender-specific. Women have their suffering whereas men have theirs. If you're the main earner in a household, you pay the house, food, tuition, everything, and you can lose it all as soon as your significant other decides to leave... how much privilege do you really have?


Actually, it's a myth that men lose custody. In fact, most men that fight for custody get it. While mothers in court are over scrutinized in a way fathers are not. The truth is most custody agreements are just that, an agreement. Both parents agree. You can't evenly divide up time because of things such as school and how difficult it is on the child to costly move. One parent needs to get the majority of time. But that is a decision that usually involves both parents and their lawyers. Source.

If we talk about war, we need to talk about war rape. So don't say women don't suffer during war time because they cannot be drafted. The truth is that war hurts everyone. Source 1. Source 2.

Women are often ignored when raped and abused, actually. A good source for this would be to look at the vast amount of complaints against how colleges are handling rape cases. Source.


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## MagicalCat590 (Sep 17, 2014)

You know, I'm actually a feminist myself, but I really want to stay out of this argument. So I'm just gonna post this here and leave. Give you guys some perspective on how most modern feminists think. The rational ones, anyway...



Spoiler


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## Delphine (Sep 17, 2014)

Reindeer said:


> I'd rather see it as two separate groups: the feminists and the radical feminists. The first group is people that are out for actual equality (equal opportunity, not equal outcomes) for both sexes, and they have pretty much succeeded in doing so since the wage gap has pretty much been eliminated over the last few decades. See Dinomates' link for more information on that.
> On the other hand, the radical feminists ignore all male suffrage and deny there is any hate towards them, all the while spewing hate towards men. They only care about the female viewpoint and wish that "male privilege" and "the patriarchy" would disappear.
> 
> It's the latter group which is attacking gaming, and it's also the loudest group in the internet shouting contest in the last few years. There's quite a few on here as well. I think that if they keep believing in all the one-sided reports they read they're just blinding themselves and making it harder on themselves, rather than society.
> In that sense, see it as a brony who wears a pony tail all over the place. It's noticeable, and while many people won't say it outright, it's odd. It's the behavior of the radical feminists that scare people off or make them say hurtful things, not "the patriarchy".



As I said earlier, haven't had the chance to ever see any non-radical feminist, heh. Expect... me. They always go too far where I live. But I get your point and I'm glad I got to learn this. Thanks for sharing.



Reindeer said:


> Thank you for saying that.



It's only the truth. People in general seem to have a lack of imagination and can't put themselves in someone else's shoes. It's not so hard to understand others when you try.



Fawning said:


> It's a shame that it's like that in France. It's hard to get women's issues taken seriously (for example, this thread) people do take it too far and ruins the reputations for others.



It's killing me...


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## Fawning (Sep 17, 2014)

MermaidSong said:


> Actually, it's a myth that men lose custody. In fact, most men that fight for custody get it. While mothers in court are over scrutinized in a way fathers are not. The truth is most custody agreements are just that, an agreement. Both parents agree. You can't evenly divide up time because of things such as school and how difficult it is on the child to costly move. One parent needs to get the majority of time. But that is a decision that usually involves both parents and their lawyers. Source.
> 
> If we talk about war, we need to talk about war rape. So don't say women don't suffer during war time because they cannot be drafted. The truth is that war hurts everyone. Source 1. Source 2.
> 
> Women are often ignored when raped and abused, actually. A good source for this would be to look at the vast amount of complaints against how colleges are handling rape cases. Source.



Thank you.


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## MozzarellaSticks (Sep 17, 2014)

Okay, yes, men have problems. That's true. But this is about women's issues. This is not about issues men face. It's extremely frustrating that whenever women want to speak up they are met with, "What about the men!?" You can't keep using that. It just ignores women's issues more. And they are largely ignored because they're met with silencing tactics such as, "What about the men!?" The truth is that men and women face different problems, but on a whole men have it easier. Just like white people benefit from being white. It's not that white cis men don't suffer, it's that the issues they face are different and we can't keep dismissing the other issues because everyone has problems. We need to listen and acknowledge and make steps to solve these problems. And if you actually listen and acknowledge you'll see that fighting for the marginalized group actually benefits everyone.


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## Reindeer (Sep 17, 2014)

MermaidSong said:


> In general gaming and gaming culture is pretty sexist. Despite nearly half of gamers being female, and teenage boys being one of the smallest demographics, games are still marketed to teenage boys. So developers make them for teenage boys. When you look at gaming industry wise it's a mostly male dominated industry. And the women that are in it have spoken up about the sexism within. Yet games that have a diverse panel tend to do better. Because gamers are diverse. We can't keep trying to cater to a small demographic.
> 
> That said, there are those that take it too far. But we do have to recognize that there is a problem.


Amy Hennig was fired from her job as writer of the Uncharted series because she didn't believe in the whole sexism thing, because she was content with the way she was able to work.
Jade Raymond never spoke up about any sexism either, and she was the main producer of the Assassin's Creed series for a while.
Kellee Santiago, one of the founders of Thatgamecompany (the other one being, gasp, a man) and the creator of games like Flower and Journey has never experienced sexism against her either.
Corrinne Yu, a former key member of 343 Industries (Halo) and now working at Naughty Dog (Uncharted) works in a male-dominated workplace but also has never said anything bad about it. In fact, while working at 343 she was one of the most treasured people there for her work in programming.

Apart from that, there's reports that slowly but surely, more women are entering the industry. It's slow, but it's gradual, and eventually it won't be male-dominated anymore. I'm all for that, since these ladies have had a huge and positive impact on the gaming world, and I can only imagine what positive things female developers in the future will bring to the table.

Zoe Quinn is a negative addition to female game developers, since she shows exactly what not to do. Developing a game with people's help, then calling them bastards and ****ing around with a bunch of guys to get it published, and complaining about its sales being crap when the game is uninteresting... Sorry, but those are the people we should leave behind in any industry.

- - - Post Merge - - -



MermaidSong said:


> If we talk about war, we need to talk about war rape. So don't say women don't suffer during war time because they cannot be drafted. The truth is that war hurts everyone. Source 1. Source 2.


Quote me the exact part where I said women don't suffer during war.


----------



## Cudon (Sep 17, 2014)

MermaidSong said:


> In general gaming and gaming culture is pretty sexist. Despite nearly half of gamers being female, and teenage boys being one of the smallest demographics, games are still marketed to teenage boys. So developers make them for teenage boys. When you look at gaming industry wise it's a mostly male dominated industry. And the women that are in it have spoken up about the sexism within. Yet games that have a diverse panel tend to do better. Because gamers are diverse. We can't keep trying to cater to a small demographic.
> 
> That said, there are those that take it too far. But we do have to recognize that there is a problem.


But at the same time there are plenty of games that don't have these sexist elements, so instead of being really negative about sexism people should just... idk.. not play games they consider sexist? There are plenty of games that are not targeted towards teenagers. 

What really bothers me is how a small part of gaming is targeted when there's much more to gaming, but aslong as these radical feminists can make a quick buck off of it they don't care. Not every game is sexist and in the end no matter what you do the game is in the hands of the developer and if this developer wants this character to be half naked it will be half naked because it's the developers game. It's their form of art and they're the ones who create these characters, not the feminists. It's like shouting at an artist because he felt like putting something that pleases him into the picture, when in the end it's his work and it's his vision. If a developer sees this forest spirit as a pretty maiden in a green dress, it will be a maiden in the dress and most gamers won't care. It's the developers art choice and in the end doesn't affect the story of the game. The character could easily be dressed in a pyjama 
or something and the story would remain unchanged, unless a part of the costume was plot related.

Also feminists only think about the aesthetics which is really pathetic. It's really not a professional way to look at games


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## MozzarellaSticks (Sep 17, 2014)

Reindeer said:


> Amy Hennig was fired from her job as writer of the Uncharted series because she didn't believe in the whole sexism thing, because she was content with the way she was able to work.
> Jade Raymond never spoke up about any sexism either, and she was the main producer of the Assassin's Creed series for a while.
> Kellee Santiago, one of the founders of Thatgamecompany (the other one being, gasp, a man) and the creator of games like Flower and Journey has never experienced sexism against her either.
> Corrinne Yu, a former key member of 343 Industries (Halo) and now working at Naughty Dog (Uncharted) works in a male-dominated workplace but also has never said anything bad about it. In fact, while working at 343 she was one of the most treasured people there for her work in programming.
> ...


You can't give a few isolated examples and call it okay. It's still a very male dominated field, as are STEM fields. And they are ripe with sexism. It's good that that's changing, but it's still a problem.

You're going to have good and bad people in every group. But there's no evidence here to support that Zoe Quinn did anything., except complaints from an ex. An ex is not really a reliable source. I'm iffy on her in general, but attacking her isn't really doing anything but making everyone look terrible.


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## Trundle (Sep 17, 2014)

We may as well get rid of movies, TV shows, and heck, why not kill off all the humans for objectifying anyone in the first place?


----------



## RainbowCherry (Sep 17, 2014)

What's funny is how loads of games have badass female characters and wimpy male characters.
Examples? Sure.
Shulk from Xenoblade Chronicles? Maybe. his personality? Maybe. himself? Nahh.
Faith in Mirrors edge one and two. ****ing. Ninja.
Tohma from Misao = Got his girlfriend killed by a demon because hes too much of a torchic to kill it..
Gary from Pokemon = He be scared of ghost. at least thats how i remember it..
Satoshi from Corpse party/Corpse party: Blood Drive/Blood Covered = Coward. still kind hearted 
Tess from The Last Of Us = Kicking ass. Nothing more to say.
Want any more? Sure.. just say and i'll tell you more cowards/badasses of the male/female variety of Peoples.

- - - Post Merge - - -

What's funny is how loads of games have badass female characters and wimpy male characters.
Examples? Sure.
Shulk from Xenoblade Chronicles? Maybe. his personality? Maybe. himself? Nahh.
Faith in Mirrors edge one and two. ****ing. Ninja.
Tohma from Misao = Got his girlfriend killed by a demon because hes too much of a torchic to kill it..
Gary from Pokemon = He be scared of ghost. at least thats how i remember it..
Satoshi from Corpse party/Corpse party: Blood Drive/Blood Covered = Coward. still kind hearted 
Tess from The Last Of Us = Kicking ass. Nothing more to say.
Want any more? Sure.. just say and i'll tell you more cowards/badasses of the male/female variety of Peoples.


----------



## Cudon (Sep 17, 2014)

Ashtot said:


> I don't know why people are only saying that women are seen as sex objects in gaming because it's the same in the real world.


Media innit


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## MozzarellaSticks (Sep 17, 2014)

Trundle said:


> We may as well get rid of movies, TV shows, and heck, why not kill off all the humans for objectifying anyone in the first place?


You can't take a compliant and go to the extreme with it. That's such a bad argument. The answer isn't objectify everyone or get rid of media. The answer is to treat human beings like human beings. There is a middle ground. And the middle ground produces media people enjoy more, actually. Source.


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## Reindeer (Sep 17, 2014)

MermaidSong said:


> You can't give a few isolated examples and call it okay. It's still a very male dominated field, as are STEM fields. And they are ripe with sexism. It's good that that's changing, but it's still a problem.


They may be isolated examples, but that's only because I don't want to pull out the list of women in gaming that are succeeding without complaining about it being a male-dominated workplace. If that's the thing holding women back from doing it, it being full of men, then it's going to stay like that forever.

Apart from that, there's also the fact that it may not even have their attention. Obviously, a lot of women are interested in working in the gaming industry, but these are mostly women belonging to the hardcore gamer demographic. It's the same with men. As the video pointed out, due to differing interests, the hardcore gamer demographic has 1 woman to every 7 men. Again, that's due to differing interests, NOT them being oppressed.

If it stays like that, and honest to god, I'd be happy for it to change, then you're going to end up with a male-dominated industry. Unless you're going to change the interests of billions of women, it's going to stay like that and honestly, at that point, you can't really yell that it's because of THE PATRIARCHY or something else stupid like that.



MermaidSong said:


> You're going to have good and bad people in every group. But there's no evidence here to support that Zoe Quinn did anything., *except complaints from an ex.* An ex is not really a reliable source. I'm iffy on her in general, but attacking her isn't really doing anything but making everyone look terrible.


And confirmation from various parties.



Trundle said:


> We may as well get rid of movies, TV shows, and heck, why not kill off all the humans for objectifying anyone in the first place?


Sounds like a plan.


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## Cudon (Sep 17, 2014)

Fawning said:


> Sigh, I come on this website to NOT see crap like this but here we are


You can always leave if you don't like discussing things like these :u Some of us actually enjoy talking about  this


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## Colour Bandit (Sep 17, 2014)

^this, I find it so annoying when you get gamers who want video games to be taken seriously as an 'art form' but can't take criticism, such as people being critical over this topic. I think people need to realise now that the majority of gamers are women, 18 years and over, yet the majority of female characters are hyper-sexualised/unrealistic instead of being a realistic portrayal of women.

In terms of playing online games, I highly avoid it because even if I have chosen a male character, a gender neutral or masculine username I get misogynistic slurs hurled at me mainly because people assume that if I'm playing badly I have to be a woman, heck I got misogynistic slurs hurled at me today when playing Pokemon TCG Online! Another thing is this: http://www.pcgamer.com/2014/07/02/hearthstone-tournament/
I quote, "This is to avoid possible conflicts (e.g. a female player eliminating a male player during RO8) among other things."
Women are not allowed to play in e-sports, such as this Hearthstone tournament, because they were worried that men basically couldn't cope with losing to a woman! This is just ****ing childish!

I hate being called a gamer because I don't want to be lumped into a sexist community which is dominated by the poor little dudebros who can't cope with sharing with women, even if these women are the majority.

Okay that's me done, anyone who wants to argue with me can take it to pm since I am not posting in this topic again.

http://gamingfeminism.tumblr.com/
To any feminist gamers this blog is quite good


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## MozzarellaSticks (Sep 17, 2014)

Reindeer said:


> They may be isolated examples, but that's only because I don't want to pull out the list of women in gaming that are succeeding without complaining about it being a male-dominated workplace. If that's the thing holding women back from doing it, it being full of men, then it's going to stay like that forever.
> 
> Apart from that, there's also the fact that it may not even have their attention. Obviously, a lot of women are interested in working in the gaming industry, but these are mostly women belonging to the hardcore gamer demographic. It's the same with men. As the video pointed out, due to differing interests, the hardcore gamer demographic has 1 woman to every 7 men. Again, that's due to differing interests, NOT them being oppressed.
> 
> ...


Just because women can succeed in male dominated fields doesn't prove they are sexist. The problem is that they need to succeed in male dominated fields. The fact you're blind to that is really alarming. The fact you are trying to ignore the sexism in them because some women haven't said anything is alarming.  This is a well documented problem.

And regardless of what Quinn did the threats against her are still sexist. Which is another huge issue. Women are threatened with rape and sexual violence when they are accused, and sometimes just for trying. It's an issue. While I agree that if she did use sex to get her game popular it's extremely wrong, I can't condone what people are saying to her. No one deserves that.


----------



## Cudon (Sep 17, 2014)

MermaidSong said:


> Just because women can succeed in male dominated fields doesn't prove they are sexist. The problem is that they need to succeed in male dominated fields. The fact you're blind to that is really alarming. The fact you are trying to ignore the sexism in them because some women haven't said anything is alarming.  This is a well documented problem.
> 
> And regardless of what Quinn did the threats against her are still sexist. Which is another huge issue. Women are threatened with rape and sexual violence when they are accused, and sometimes just for trying. It's an issue. While I agree that if she did use sex to get her game popular it's extremely wrong, I can't condone what people are saying to her. No one deserves that.


Yeah death threats are wrong but at the same time is their reaction to it mature? ''OHMG LOOK AT THIS *** HE TELL ME TO DIE OHMG SO SEXIST'' Every popular person has gotten death threats but I never see them whine about it like feminists in gaming do. It's all about acting like a victim


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## Reindeer (Sep 17, 2014)

MermaidSong said:


> Just because women can succeed in male dominated fields doesn't prove they are sexist. The problem is that they need to succeed in male dominated fields. The fact you're blind to that is really alarming. The fact you are trying to ignore the sexism in them because some women haven't said anything is alarming.  This is a well documented problem.


Sorry, but again, if you can show me these reports then I'll happily read them. All I've read so far is you claiming that they work in a sexist field. I've had no examples given while I've given you examples of the opposite. If anything, you're bad at trying to convince me it's sexist. And the fact that you're blind to my other points is an alarming and well-documented problem now as well.



MermaidSong said:


> And regardless of what Quinn did the threats against her are still sexist. Which is another huge issue. Women are threatened with rape and sexual violence when they are accused, and sometimes just for trying. It's an issue. While I agree that if she did use sex to get her game popular it's extremely wrong, I can't condone what people are saying to her. No one deserves that.


I'd just like to say that I don't agree with those threats at all. She did some bad **** and I feel she should be reprimanded and shunned for them, but to threaten her with rape and murder is going way too far. If there's any particular group of gamers I'd like to distance myself from, it's the ones that are so eager to send threats of violence to people.


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## Liquid Ocelot (Sep 17, 2014)

Y'all ****ed up.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Dinomates said:


> Yeah death threats are wrong but at the same time is their reaction to it mature? ''OHMG LOOK AT THIS *** HE TELL ME TO DIE OHMG SO SEXIST'' Every popular person has gotten death threats but I never see them whine about it like feminists in gaming do. It's all about acting like a victim



I'm crying. 

I'm literally. I'm just. I can't. I didn't want to get into this, but saying someone shouldn't be upset over people threatening to rape and kill them is- lololololol. You're hurting me. 

People tell me to go kill myself on the regular- people have even told me that they've prayed daily for me to die, but the point is, no matter how well I deal or don't deal with it, people should not be making death threats in the first place. 

hurr. durr. Don't excuse those behaviors just because you don't like who they're affecting.


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## amarillo (Sep 17, 2014)

MermaidSong said:


> Okay, yes, men have problems. That's true. But this is about women's issues. This is not about issues men face. It's extremely frustrating that whenever women want to speak up they are met with, "What about the men!?" You can't keep using that. It just ignores women's issues more. And they are largely ignored because they're met with silencing tactics such as, "What about the men!?" The truth is that men and women face different problems, but on a whole men have it easier. Just like white people benefit from being white. It's not that white cis men don't suffer, it's that the issues they face are different and we can't keep dismissing the other issues because everyone has problems. We need to listen and acknowledge and make steps to solve these problems. And if you actually listen and acknowledge you'll see that fighting for the marginalized group actually benefits everyone.



EXACTLY 
trying to shift the issue towards men's problems is erasing the problems women face by trying to make yours more important.

I am not saying men don't have problems. That is always the first thing people jump to. Yes, *everyone* has problems, but I'm going to say that the majority of women are going to have it worse, specifically as being treated like sexual objects since this is what this forum started out as.


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## Emilia (Sep 17, 2014)

@Dinomates I can't believe how blind you are about the sexism in video games, the objectification of women. May I quote you: 

"In my opinion character design barely has anything to do with the meat of the game and is there just to promote the game. It's there to please the fans of the genre and if it happens to be a fighting game for an example the females have small amounts of clothing since that's a standard for the genre. In a fighting game you want your characters look like they can kick some butt and it seems like many think that a female fighting in small amounts of clothing is badass and empowering, which is why alot of female super heroes have that aspect. However at the same time there's people like Anita who don't even try to understand it and just call it sexism."

"Not every game is sexist and in the end no matter what you do the game is in the hands of the developer and if this developer wants this character to be half naked it will be half naked because it's the developers game. It's their form of art and they're the ones who create these characters, not the feminists."

You defend sexism already as a _standard_ for video gaming, like, I know you meant that that's just the way it is, but don't you try to think about why it's the way it is? Why you see it as normal for woman in action games to show almost all of their body? It's not empowering, it's to have something to look at, because stereotypes still exist and only men/boys play video games, so why not lure them with breasts? You can't make the comparison with comics, because those are often even worse. 

I really love the Hawkeye initiative, because it shows what comic book artists do to women, just to show off their best body parts. They draw male comic heroes in the poses of female heroes, just to show what ridiculous poses the females have to do. http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/

Please, all of you, read this article. http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-sexist-video-game-problems-even-bigger-than-breasts/

(I also want to thank everyone who speaks up in the name of real feminism.)


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## Cudon (Sep 17, 2014)

Liquid Ocelot said:


> Y'all ****ed up.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...


I'm not excusing anyone. It's really wrong to send death threats, however when you become a popular person it's pretty unavoidable and instead of getting tangled up on them its more professional to ignore them and move on.

Kojima for an example got a stream of death threats during the development of mgs4, but instead of whining he just mentioned them and thought it was funny he was important enough for people to send death threats to


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## MrPicklez (Sep 17, 2014)

I'm just gonna leave this here.


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## Reindeer (Sep 17, 2014)

Emilia said:


> (I also want to thank everyone who speaks up in the name of real feminism.)


As opposed to fake feminism??



MrKisstoefur said:


> I'm just gonna leave this here.


B-but that's in the OP.


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## MrPicklez (Sep 17, 2014)

I linked the wrong video omfg.

Sorry on my phone and at school lol


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## Cudon (Sep 17, 2014)

Emilia said:


> @Dinomates I can't believe how blind you are about the sexism in video games, the objectification of women. May I quote you:
> 
> "In my opinion character design barely has anything to do with the meat of the game and is there just to promote the game. It's there to please the fans of the genre and if it happens to be a fighting game for an example the females have small amounts of clothing since that's a standard for the genre. In a fighting game you want your characters look like they can kick some butt and it seems like many think that a female fighting in small amounts of clothing is badass and empowering, which is why alot of female super heroes have that aspect. However at the same time there's people like Anita who don't even try to understand it and just call it sexism."
> 
> ...


But it is empowering. Not in my mind, but plenty people think so. There are plenty of movies with sexy powerfull heroines because that's what people consider badass.

Maybe I am blind, but it's because I don't care for it. It doesn't ruin my game experience and it isn't the fault of gaming alone, media and role models set these standards.

Anyone who is tangled up in sexism in gaming is taking it too seriously, since many developers are making the games for themselves and are having fun with it


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## Emilia (Sep 17, 2014)

Fake feminism, if you want to call it that, yes. Fake feminism is all about how women should rule the world and don't need men, hate men and so on. Real feminism should be about equality of all genders, about solving problems in peaceful ways, but you don't see that very often.

And I doubt that developers make the games for themselves, they make them to earn money, in the most effective ways.


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## Cudon (Sep 17, 2014)

Emilia said:


> Fake feminism, if you want to call it that, yes. Fake feminism is all about how women should rule the world and don't need men, hate men and so on. Real feminism should be about equality of all genders, about solving problems in peaceful ways, but you don't see that very often.
> 
> And I doubt that developers make the games for themselves, they make them to earn money, in the most effective ways.


And what's wrong with making money as a company? It's their goal. However there are some developers who make games for themselves, like kojima


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## Reindeer (Sep 17, 2014)

Dinomates said:


> And what's wrong with making money as a company? It's their goal. However there are some developers who make games for themselves, like kojima


To take it out of the video game medium, the main demographic that Peter Jackson's remake of King Kong was made for was Peter Jackson.


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## Stevey Queen (Sep 17, 2014)

I don't know what exactly what you guys want us to do about it? Stop portraying women in a sexual way? That's never going to happen. Your ignorant to the fact that the world isn't pure. It's a very corrupt world we live in and unfortunately sex sells. I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying it's impossible to change but you have every right to not participate in it. 

Among other topics like women getting blamed for rape. I always thought this was a stupid thing to say. In rape, all blame goes to the rapist regardless of gender. And please don't say that it's impossible for a woman to rape a man because that's just ignorant and stupid.

I wasn't following the death threat topic. But death threats aren't tolerable regardless of the situation.

As for real life sexism, which should be more of a concern then what's portrayed in video games and movies, it's more complicated. And I don't know what to do about it.


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## Liquid Ocelot (Sep 17, 2014)

Dinomates said:


> I'm not excusing anyone. It's really wrong to send death threats, however when you become a popular person it's pretty unavoidable and instead of getting tangled up on them its more professional to ignore them and move on.
> 
> Kojima for an example got a stream of death threats during the development of mgs4, but instead of whining he just mentioned them and thought it was funny he was important enough for people to send death threats to



How someone reacts to said death threats isn't the problem. The problem is that PEOPLE ARE SENDING DEATH THREATS. 

It's perfectly acceptable to get angry/upset when someone's attacking you. You can put up a front, but that doesn't mean everyone should, or is going to. 

I see what you're saying, I do. But it's ridiculous to say "quit being upset". My dad always told me to suck it up, too. But that's not everyone. Y'know?


----------



## amarillo (Sep 17, 2014)

LoveMcQueen said:


> I don't know what exactly what you guys want us to do about it? Stop portraying women in a sexual way? That's never going to happen. Your ignorant to the fact that the world isn't pure. It's a very corrupt world we live in and unfortunately sex sells. I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying it's impossible to change but you have every right to not participate in it.
> 
> As for real life sexism, which should be more of a concern then what's portrayed in video games and movies, it's more complicated. And I don't know what to do about it.



Not participate in it? Ignore it? How am I supposed to ignore it? It's everywhere! Billboards, Movie posters, movies themselves, tv shows, magazines, commericals, comics, and especially video games! I can't close my eyes when I'm trying to drive to work it's just unreasonable. Society is built to indulge in sexualizing unwilling participants. I walk down the street and get cat called on a daily basis. I am pulled into sexism even if I wanted to ignore it!

The way to deal with sexism in real life is the same as dealing with it in video games. Bring it to the media's attention. Let society know that we're tired of only being treated like objects for sex and for some gamers fantasy. The more voices that are raised about it the sooner it will stop.


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## Reindeer (Sep 17, 2014)

Liquid Ocelot said:


> How someone reacts to said death threats isn't the problem. The problem is that PEOPLE ARE SENDING DEATH THREATS.
> 
> It's perfectly acceptable to get angry/upset when someone's attacking you. You can put up a front, but that doesn't mean everyone should, or is going to.
> 
> I see what you're saying, I do. But it's ridiculous to say "quit being upset". My dad always told me to suck it up, too. But that's not everyone. Y'know?


As mentioned in the video, the amount of people sending actual death or other threats is a minor group in the gaming community. A huge portion of gamers is very tolerant of people and wouldn't send such threats, but even in this you'll find a few "sociopaths" (as she put it).

I don't think people should be sending death threats either, and yes they are the problem. But on the other hand, if you go into a high profile job you're prone to getting them. People in the video game industry are not immune to it. That's all she was saying.


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## Zeiro (Sep 17, 2014)

What is the purpose of this thread exactly?


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## Reindeer (Sep 17, 2014)

Zeiro said:


> What is the purpose of this thread exactly?


Apart from being a personal celebration that somebody other than the InternetAristocrat was able to put into concise terms what much of the community has been thinking in regards to this situation, it's also a platform for discussing the video game medium as well as how sexism, (radical) feminism and various other subjects play into that (if at all).


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## 35mm (Sep 17, 2014)

This is the most civil forum debate I have ever seen... I love this place.


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## Liquid Ocelot (Sep 17, 2014)

35mm said:


> This is the most civil forum debate I have ever seen... I love this place.



>Posts : 17

Oh dear.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Reindeer said:


> As mentioned in the video, the amount of people sending actual death or other threats is a minor group in the gaming community. A huge portion of gamers is very tolerant of people and wouldn't send such threats, but even in this you'll find a few "sociopaths" (as she put it).
> 
> I don't think people should be sending death threats either, and yes they are the problem. But on the other hand, if you go into a high profile job you're prone to getting them. People in the video game industry are not immune to it. That's all she was saying.



I understand. 

I think I'm just getting tired.

Like, I never really got to be upset over people saying they wanted me dead- I just kinda had to be like 'lol' and stuff, but man- even if you're prone to getting them because of your position, it's not completely outlandish to be upset. 

It seems to be an argument against one section of boy douchebags, and another section of girl douchebags.


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## Stevey Queen (Sep 17, 2014)

amarillo said:


> Not participate in it? Ignore it? How am I supposed to ignore it? It's everywhere! Billboards, Movie posters, movies themselves, tv shows, magazines, commericals, comics, and especially video games! I can't close my eyes when I'm trying to drive to work it's just unreasonable. Society is built to indulge in sexualizing unwilling participants. I walk down the street and get cat called on a daily basis. I am pulled into sexism even if I wanted to ignore it!
> 
> The way to deal with sexism in real life is the same as dealing with it in video games. Bring it to the media's attention. Let society know that we're tired of only being treated like objects for sex and for some gamers fantasy. The more voices that are raised about it the sooner it will stop.



And it most likely never will stop. The people who makes these barely clothed women don't care and that's because a lot of people like it. People are dirty filthy perverts and they want to see it. 

And honestly if anybody buys a game just for the partial nudity they are just pathetic losers. Men you should pretty much try to avoid because they don't treat women right.

I don't think any of this right. It's truly disgusting how much sex is displayed publicly in our lives. But at least I'm realistic and know this is as much as a pointless battle as vegetarians trying to get the whole world to stop eating meat. 

You change a few people but there will always be perverts. I agree with you and understand your concerns but I know what battles are worth fighting.


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## Emilia (Sep 17, 2014)

Just one last, sad input, some of those stories are terrible: http://everydaysexism.com/


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## SmokeyB (Sep 17, 2014)

> Not true. Research has shown that women earn much less than their male counterparts with the same qualifications and women are often seen as less capable then men in areas such as IT even though they might have the same amount of experience.


Has the wage gap not been debunked? Where is this research you speak of though? What happened to Equal Pay Act of 1963? Furthermore, does a not a man have to pay child support whether he wants to or not? And what of reproductive rights? *(I sound like one of those MRAs but if we want equality going on here then y'know???)* Also I don't think a woman can get charged for raping a man in the UK. I could be wrong though.



> You would also more often than not see unattractive men criticising women for being unattractive while the other way around rarely happens. Criticising someone for such a superficial reason is not right either way but the fact that unattractive women can't do it because they would be rebutted more severely says something.



Feminism isn't going to stop this. People have preferences, and those who put others down based on their appearance are *******s, plain and simple? 



> Women are still seen as less worthy in today's society, really.


I just don't see it from my view, perhaps you do though. Looking forward to a reply.


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## Emilia (Sep 17, 2014)

@SmokeyB About a womans worth: Just read a few stories of the website I just posted, maybe then you'll understand a bit more about the struggle of women.


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## SmokeyB (Sep 17, 2014)

35mm said:


> This is the most civil forum debate I have ever seen... I love this place.



Also this, lol. On Tumblr it's way worse.

- - - Post Merge - - -

Yes because white middle-upper class women have it hard in today's society...Sorry, I just won't believe it. I'll give it a read though. I'll be dropping out of this discussion, now  I've said all I can say. Asian boi out


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## Emilia (Sep 17, 2014)

Of course not everyone has it hard of us, I'm lucky enough to not have experienced anything extremly bad. But those stories, which hopefully open your mind a bit, could happen to every woman, everywhere.


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## SmokeyB (Sep 17, 2014)

Yes of course, my girlfriend goes through a really rough time at those American schools. It makes me really angry.


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## amarillo (Sep 17, 2014)

35mm said:


> This is the most civil forum debate I have ever seen... I love this place.



I know right? These debates usually get a lot worse on other forums I've been to (not including TBT)



LoveMcQueen said:


> And it most likely never will stop. The people who makes these barely clothed women don't care and that's because a lot of people like it. People are dirty filthy perverts and they want to see it.
> 
> I don't think any of this right. It's truly disgusting how much sex is displayed publicly in our lives. But at least I'm realistic and know this is as much as a pointless battle as vegetarians trying to get the whole world to stop eating meat.
> 
> You change a few people but there will always be perverts. I agree with you and understand your concerns but I know what battles are worth fighting.



hahaha yeah, I know. I get what you're saying! I just don't feel like it's a worthless fight just yet. If women could get themselves the vote about 100 years ago we can keep fighting for equality now!

 I understand that it's not something that's ever going to stop but I feel like there's a time and a place, you know? Like I'm perfectly fine with it in things like grand theft auto having strippers on poles and stuff but like the design of the new lady villain in Hyrule Warriors, for example, just seems wildly out of place to me. 

And I mean... We're all on this forum because we love animal crossing, which goes to prove that games with zero sexualization can be popular and enjoyable so why can't that be more widespread? 



LoveMcQueen said:


> And honestly if anybody buys a game just for the partial nudity they are just pathetic losers. Men you should pretty much try to avoid because they don't treat women right.


hahahaha sorry, I just like how you said that. Yes. Agreed.


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## Trundle (Sep 17, 2014)

MermaidSong said:


> You can't take a compliant and go to the extreme with it. That's such a bad argument. The answer isn't objectify everyone or get rid of media. The answer is to treat human beings like human beings. There is a middle ground. And the middle ground produces media people enjoy more, actually. Source.



Unfortunately, that's not how people do things. There are some bad people in the world, there are some good people in the world, and bad things will happen because of it. My point is that nothing is going to stop. While we can discuss it all we want and try to fix the problem, you're all focusing on the problem and not the solution. That's why you don't follow anyone on the Internet on a certain topic trying to bring change solely from a blog such as tumblr. Unless they are engaging what they are teaching and learning, it's all a huge waste. Lead by example.


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## Liquid Ocelot (Sep 17, 2014)

LoveMcQueen said:


> I don't think any of this right. It's truly disgusting how much sex is displayed publicly in our lives.



Why is sex disgusting? I mean, what I think is disgusting is that safe sex practices are often discarded in lieu of watching two people hump each other, but there's nothing wrong with displaying a healthy sense of sexuality. 

Expose a breast and people freak out. Blow someone's head off, and nobody cares.


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## 35mm (Sep 17, 2014)

Liquid Ocelot said:


> >Posts : 17
> 
> Oh dear.



Hah, I'm a tumblr user. This stuff is INCREDIBLY civil. (Don't join Tumblr)


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## SmokeyB (Sep 17, 2014)

> (Don't join Tumblr)



This person knows all and sees all.


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## Liquid Ocelot (Sep 17, 2014)

35mm said:


> Hah, I'm a tumblr user. This stuff is INCREDIBLY civil. (Don't join Tumblr)



TOO LATE. 

Actually- mine is just for writings and stuff. I ain't touching that other ****.


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## 35mm (Sep 17, 2014)

Liquid Ocelot said:


> TOO LATE.
> 
> Actually- mine is just for writings and stuff. I ain't touching that other ****.



You truly are one of the lucky ones


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## Amissapanda (Sep 17, 2014)

I feel especially sorry for women that work in the game industry. I'm sure that some of you here heard the story about the one that went into hiding because of male threats over her articles. I won't get into that story, but it's just one example.

Sexism _is_ a real problem. No, I'm not saying everyone should get up on soapboxes and create a mess like the crazier half of the feminists and other loud groups, but there are little things we can do. Support games and companies that are working on gender equality by adding more female characters that are not just eye candy to their games and not sexualizing women so much in them. Case in point: Nintendo. They've been making a strong effort in the past few years to include more female characters and not focus so much on their sex appeal. Peach has always a prime example of this. Zelda, as well. And in the upcoming Smash game, there's going to be a lot more new female characters than before. Not only that, but Splatoon is on the horizon for 2015, where your team is made up of what are basically cute squid girls dressed in sporty clothing. And those are just a few examples of why I respect Nintendo and what they're doing. They're growing and changing _with_ the world's changes and that's important.

Outside of games, support things like equal wages for women and equal opportunity. There's no need to get violent and play blame games. We all have the ability to support things we believe in without shoving it down other people's throats.

And as far as tumblr goes? It's actually a pretty nice place and great for hanging out in fandoms, blogging, and other things. If you avoid the SJW half of it, there's a pretty nice community there. The radicals can be avoided either by ignoring them, or there's even ways to blacklist tags and things you don't want to see. It's handy.


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## amarillo (Sep 17, 2014)

Trundle said:


> While we can discuss it all we want and try to fix the problem, you're all focusing on the problem and not the solution. That's why you don't follow anyone on the Internet on a certain topic trying to bring change solely from a blog such as tumblr. Unless they are engaging what they are teaching and learning, it's all a huge waste. Lead by example.


I agree! I was just going to make that point! 
I think one of the biggest problems in games in particular that promotes sexism is that the designs are lazy and promoted by what they already know will sell. It's rarely thought out how to make a female character without sexualizing them. It's possible to make someone (while keeping them sexy even) without having their cleavage or ass hanging out all over the place!


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## SmokeyB (Sep 17, 2014)

I really did not find games like Lolipop Chainsaw that interesting even with the main protag. I thought the game was crap, honestly. Although there are a lot of people who enjoy it, my Sister enjoyed it but she didn't seem all that bothered about how the character was dressed. Why does it bother _*you *_women? Characters like Bayonetta was designed by a female I believe. (I can't wait for that game)


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## amarillo (Sep 17, 2014)

SmokeyB said:


> I really did not find games like Lolipop Chainsaw that interesting even with the main protag. I thought the game was crap, honestly. Although there are a lot of people who enjoy it, my Sister enjoyed it but she didn't seem all that bothered about how the character was dressed. Why does it bother _*you *_women? Characters like Bayonetta was designed by a female I believe. (I can't wait for that game)



Why *doesn't* it bother _*you*_ men? You said your girlfriend has to deal with sexism at her American school but that doesn't involve you? 

What I really don't get, though, are the people who are saying "Well, it doesn't bother ME, so why are YOU complaining?". I can't tell if they're trying to defend their favorite franchises from criticism, or really just don't care about anyone's concerns but their own.

Is it general myopia, lack of empathy, never having had to deal with actual prejudice slapping them in the face and affecting them in a very negative manner?

Some people just can't look outside of their own experiences and understand that things aren't as easy or nice for others who aren't just like them.


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## Jawile (Sep 17, 2014)

Jon x Vivian 5ever

but basically yeah screw zoe quinn.


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## SmokeyB (Sep 17, 2014)

amarillo said:


> Why *doesn't* it bother _*you*_ men? You said your girlfriend has to deal with sexism at her American school but that doesn't involve you?
> 
> What I really don't get, though, are the people who are saying "Well, it doesn't bother ME, so why are YOU complaining?". I can't tell if they're trying to defend their favorite franchises from criticism, or really just don't care about anyone's concerns but their own.
> 
> ...



I'm a bisexual indian asian male. Saying I haven't dealt with prejudice is a huge slap in the gob. No need to get defensive all of a sudden, I simply asked you a question. Putting a sexy male character on the screen doesn't affect me, but why does it affect you? Just asking. I didn't say she has to deal with *sexism*, I said she has to deal with getting bullied by a bunch of pricks including girls. I wish it would involve me so I could beat the living **** out of them but I am unable to reach her. So **** off with that **** please before I get *really *angry. Talk about a straight attack.


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## Amissapanda (Sep 17, 2014)

SmokeyB said:


> I really did not find games like Lolipop Chainsaw that interesting even with the main protag. I thought the game was crap, honestly. Although there are a lot of people who enjoy it, my Sister enjoyed it but she didn't seem all that bothered about how the character was dressed. Why does it bother _*you *_women? Characters like Bayonetta was designed by a female I believe. (I can't wait for that game)



I can't speak for all women, but it bothers me because women are becoming little more than sex symbols in media. And you know what that does to society? Girls try to starve themselves so they can look like models, go on unhealthy diets, try to imitate media by dressing in sexy clothing, etc. And the same kind of influence comes from video games. Being female and a gamer is not at all uncommon anymore.

We're in an age where people are literally blaming the girl from being r*ped because "she dressed in a skirt", instead of blaming the culprits who committed the crime in the first place. We live in an age where a town mourns the loss of their football stars' dreams because of crimes committed (and published on video on the internet) against a teenage girl. We live in an age where women can't dress and speak how they want without sometimes severe repercussions. 

Heck, almost every woman I know has been a victim of sexism in some manner. Just last week a friend of mine was harassed on a subway when she was dressed up for a party and called a ***** when she tried ignore their taunts and catcalls. This world isn't very safe for women at large and a big part of that is because the media basically paints us as symbols for sex - which influences both men and women alike. I'd like to see more women in games and media who don't dress and act like they're there to be a romantic interest or sex symbol of some sort. It's unneeded emphasis on things like breasts and butts, and "sexy walking", etc.


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## SmokeyB (Sep 17, 2014)

*THANK YOU FOR ANSWERING MY QUESTION. *A friend informed about some Ohio incident where some girl got raped and they tried to cover it up? ****ing awful.


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## MozzarellaSticks (Sep 17, 2014)

This thread is teaching me a lot about some members. And not in a good way.


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## SmokeyB (Sep 17, 2014)

I got the same idea. Back to AC for me.


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## West8991 (Sep 17, 2014)

MermaidSong said:


> This thread is teaching me a lot about some members. And not in a good way.



I agree, WHY IS THIS THREAD IN EXISTENCE! Mods? This like way to controversial for this site, and should not be discussed.

- - - Post Merge - - -

*And then it donned on me that I was the first reply* OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE!


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## MrPicklez (Sep 17, 2014)

Jawile said:


> Jon x Vivian 5ever
> 
> but basically yeah screw zoe quinn.



I love this photo so much that I'm stealing it.

Thank you, based Jawile.


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## West8991 (Sep 17, 2014)

I want to know the mods opinion of this threads existence. I seriously think this is way to controversial, I mean feminism is a super sensitive subject and should not be discussed on an ANIMAL CROSSING FORUM!


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## MozzarellaSticks (Sep 17, 2014)

West8991 said:


> I want to know the mods opinion of this threads existence. I seriously think this is way to controversial, I mean feminism is a super sensitive subject and should not be discussed on an ANIMAL CROSSING FORUM!


Go back to ACC if you want sensitive topics banned. Topics shouldn't be banned for sensitive discussion. They should be locked when the sensitive discussion goes sour.


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## MrPicklez (Sep 17, 2014)

West8991 said:


> I want to know the mods opinion of this threads existence. I seriously think this is way to controversial, I mean feminism is a super sensitive subject and should not be discussed on an ANIMAL CROSSING FORUM!



And you're saying the discussion about LGBT isn't a sensitive subject? I'm sorry but there's been far worse discussions on here. A lot of MATURE ones to be exact.



Spoiler


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## amarillo (Sep 17, 2014)

SmokeyB said:


> I'm a bisexual indian asian male. Saying I haven't dealt with prejudice is a huge slap in the gob. No need to get defensive all of a sudden, I simply asked you a question. Putting a sexy male character on the screen doesn't affect me, but why does it affect you? Just asking. I didn't say she has to deal with *sexism*, I said she has to deal with getting bullied by a bunch of pricks including girls. I wish it would involve me so I could beat the living **** out of them but I am unable to reach her. So **** off with that **** please before I get *really *angry. Talk about a straight attack.


First off I need to say I've been having a terrible day and it was an unintentionally terse post, AND Oh gosh, no, I'm sorry, I worded that terribly. I meant that in general, not directly pointed at you. I'm not saying that you haven't been the butt end of prejudice. I am  saying you haven't lived the same prejudice that I have lived, just like I haven't lived through yours. If anything, I feel like if you have been at the hurtful end of racism or hate on behalf of your sexuality, how is any hate directed at someone so different? This includes sexism! What I mentioned about your girlfriend was at the tail end of another conversation you posted after, it sounded like you were commenting on that but I guess it was something entirely different. My point still stands that your girlfriend is a girl, so she's going to have to life live with sexism anyway! (And I've been bullied while in American schools too, if I could, I'd beat up her attackers too, don't worry, I'd be right on that if violence could solve the problem.) 

To better answer your original question, this isn't something that can be answered with something as simple as personal situations since it's a global issue. I feel your sister doesn't feel anything towards it because sexism is so imbedded into our society that we barely even notice it anymore, which is why it's so important that it's been brought into the public eye. You don't find an issue with seeing "sexy men" because they aren't objectified. Men are naturally seen as powerful leaders, not as objects to gawk at by default so it's not something that can even be put on the same plain!


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## oath2order (Sep 17, 2014)

West8991 said:


> I want to know the mods opinion of this threads existence. I seriously think this is way to controversial, I mean feminism is a super sensitive subject and should not be discussed on an ANIMAL CROSSING FORUM!



We've had religious discussion here, LGBTQIA+ discussion, political discussions, and the general "let's talk about sex" thread before. I don't want to speak for the mods; I'm not their spokesmen, but I think the general consensus is "It's okay to talk about it but if it gets out of hand we'll lock it".


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## kuragamo (Sep 17, 2014)

amarillo said:


> First off I need to say I've been having a terrible day and it was an unintentionally terse post, AND Oh gosh, no, I'm sorry, I worded that terribly. I meant that in general, not directly pointed at you. I'm not saying that you haven't been the butt end of prejudice. I am  saying you haven't lived the same prejudice that I have lived, just like I haven't lived through yours. If anything, I feel like if you have been at the hurtful end of racism or hate on behalf of your sexuality, how is any hate directed at someone so different? This includes sexism! What I mentioned about your girlfriend was at the tail end of another conversation you posted after, it sounded like you were commenting on that but I guess it was something entirely different. My point still stands that your girlfriend is a girl, so she's going to have to life live with sexism anyway! (And I've been bullied while in American schools too, if I could, I'd beat up her attackers too, don't worry, I'd be right on that if violence could solve the problem.)
> 
> To better answer your original question, this isn't something that can be answered with something as simple as personal situations since it's a global issue. I feel your sister doesn't feel anything towards it because sexism is so imbedded into our society that we barely even notice it anymore, which is why it's so important that it's been brought into the public eye. You don't find an issue with seeing "sexy men" because they aren't objectified. Men are naturally seen as powerful leaders, not as objects to gawk at by default so it's not something that can even be put on the same plain!



Just because you had a terrible day doesn't mean you should be impolite to people. I'm this guy's girlfriend. The only sexism I endure is when people like you expect me to experience sexism. I don't. I wear tank tops and my shorts aren't school approved but that's because I like to dress that way (it's easier to move around and it's 100 degrees outside). I don't care how other girls dress or do, and honestly you shouldn't either. You should only care about you because only you can make yourself happy. If you don't like those video games don't play them. People like them and you shouldn't ruin their experience because someone in the game is scantly clad or lewd. I don't care about that, I play the games for the plot and graphics. I'm sure other people do that too. I was bullied because of the way I talk and act, considering everything I say and do seems monotone and uncaring. That isn't sexist or sexism in the works. You expect men to be natural leaders, which is sexist. Not all men are natural leaders. Most of my male friends would hate to be leaders, they've told me this much. If you expect men to look and act a certain way you're being a hypocrite.


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## West8991 (Sep 17, 2014)

oath2order said:


> We've had religious discussion here, LGBTQIA+ discussion, political discussions, and the general "let's talk about sex" thread before. I don't want to speak for the mods; I'm not their spokesmen, but I think the general consensus is "It's okay to talk about it but if it gets out of hand we'll lock it".



Things were getting pretty heated, I was afraid it would have some backlash on TBT. All the crap other sites get because of stuff like this, really we shouldn't even be talking about this in gaming in general. Now days everyone's against each other, what ever happened to the days where we could all sit down and enjoy a game without doxxing or hacking someone who disagrees with you. Its so bad to the point to where people are calling the police and SWATing people these days. It's horrible to be honest, we shouldn't be talking about sexism in video games. Hell, if you wanna talk sexism in video games look at how men are portrayed as hunky bad*** heroes. I will never be a hero, hell I can barley save myself from my monthly bully sessions. Women, and Men are equals. They should be always equal, not one greater, and not one lesser. I honestly cannot stand society these days, it is absurd how unfairly they treat Women these days. As a male I am all for the Feminist movement, as long as they don't try and be supreme to men. Same goes for men, they shouldn't try and be supreme as not one is supreme.

There, now that I know the boundaries of TBT I got my little rant out. I had no idea that I could talk about stuff like this on here.


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## Tinkalila (Sep 17, 2014)

In the first post, the way you put the word patriarchy in quotes turned me away immediately. This thread has taught me something about some of the people on TBT.

- - - Post Merge - - -

By the way, I believe this thread is straight-up prejudiced and should be locked.


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## radical6 (Sep 17, 2014)

MermaidSong said:


> This thread is teaching me a lot about some members. And not in a good way.



Eh, I could already tell before they posted in this thread.


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## West8991 (Sep 17, 2014)

Tinkalila said:


> In the first post, the way you put the word patriarchy in quotes turned me away immediately. This thread has taught me something about some of the people on TBT.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> By the way, I believe this thread is straight-up prejudiced and should be locked.



It's my fault, I shouldn't have bumped it at like 5:56 AM my time. I just get chewed out for asking if we should lock it.


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## SmokeyB (Sep 17, 2014)

> Its so bad to the point to where people are calling the police and SWATing



Did someone really send out SWAT? Wtf XD


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## tamagotchi (Sep 17, 2014)

It took me a while to decide whether I should look at this thread or not.


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## West8991 (Sep 17, 2014)

SmokeyB said:


> Did someone really send out SWAT? Wtf XD



It's called SWATing, its a really really serious prank. Basically someone gets pissed at someone when they get killed in a game, and they call the Police with stuff like "Theres a guy with a gun at so and so location, and hes shooting everyone" so the SWAT shows up and then you have to go through the process of explanation of what happened. It really is bullcrap, state of society people. Everyone these days is an enemy to each other.


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## MozzarellaSticks (Sep 17, 2014)

justice said:


> Eh, I could already tell before they posted in this thread.


I just never knew they were that sexist.


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## SmokeyB (Sep 17, 2014)

Geez, talk about major rage.


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## Ichigo. (Sep 17, 2014)

Tinkalila said:


> In the first post, the way you put the word patriarchy in quotes turned me away immediately. This thread has taught me something about some of the people on TBT.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> By the way, I believe this thread is straight-up prejudiced and should be locked.



seriously, I was getting so mad scrolling through this thread, I had to stop. 

just a heads up, personal anecdotes of not experiencing sexism as a woman does NOT mean others with different experiences are exaggerating or making too big of a deal about it.


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## Zane (Sep 17, 2014)

Tinkalila said:


> In the first post, the way you put the word patriarchy in quotes turned me away immediately. This thread has taught me something about some of the people on TBT.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> By the way, I believe this thread is straight-up prejudiced and should be locked.



Yeah I'm just using it as a guide of people to ignore so I don't ever accidentally interact with them in the future hahah

And I agree with you on the last point, it started with bias and the title is deliberately inflammatory.


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## West8991 (Sep 17, 2014)




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## SmokeyB (Sep 17, 2014)

Views =/= Personality. People can keep discussion like this to one side and still have friendly chats like adults. Here's one:

An anti-feminist and feminist walk into a bar,

The feminist says "Hey, want a beer?"

The anti-feminist says "Yeah sure" 

And they both had a good laugh and drink. The end.


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