# Debate: Vaccines



## oath2order (Feb 4, 2015)

Because apparently this is a debate we need to have. In 2015.

Alrighty. So in the U.S. we're apparently having this debate about whether or not vaccines should be mandated, after a breakout of _measles_ in Disneyland, California because of some anti-vaccination people who contracted measles and spread it.

So what's everybody's thoughts on immunization? The U.S. *federally* does not mandate it, it's done by a state-by-state basis. Exemptions are allowed on religious basis in all states but West Viriginia and Mississippi, and personal beliefs are allowed in 20 states.


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## Brackets (Feb 4, 2015)

It should be compulsory tbh. It's incredibly selfish (and stupid) of the parents to put their child, and also other people's children, at risk because they believe propaganda. I'm so glad this idiocy is less common in England.

If you don't believe vaccines are beneficial then you shouldn't believe any science at all (although it wouldn't surprise me if people didn't)


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## Alienfish (Feb 4, 2015)

Annachie said:


> It should be compulsory tbh. It's incredibly selfish (and stupid) of the parents to put their child, and also other people's children, at risk because they believe propaganda. I'm so glad this idiocy is less common in England.
> 
> If you don't believe vaccines are beneficial then you shouldn't believe any science at all (although it wouldn't surprise me if people didn't)



Amen doctor friends. I really don't get those people who abstain the most important ones because of whatever reasons/social media propaganda. There is one thing if it's an untested flu one but abstaining deadly child diseases.. no.


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## Stevey Queen (Feb 4, 2015)

I haven't looked into why people think vaccines are bad but I think it's incredibly stupid to not get them for your children. Why would you want them get diseases and suffer?


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## Shimmer (Feb 4, 2015)

oath2order said:


> after a breakout of _measles_ in Disneyland, California because of some anti-vaccination people who contracted measles and spread it.



This is exactly why it needs to be mandatory.


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## muromame (Feb 4, 2015)

Really unfortunate that this misconception is so wide spread in the US currently. Even Obama recently said that parents should vaccinate their children. I think it should be mandatory in every state or doctors should really educate parents.

A few days ago i even heard from a doctor that doesn't vaccinate his children! He said he doesn't care about the health of other children. Only about his. But the point is that he endangers his and every other child. So outrageous.


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## gnoixaim (Feb 4, 2015)

LoveMcQueen said:


> I haven't looked into why people think vaccines are bad but I think it's incredibly stupid to not get them for your children. Why would you want them get diseases and suffer?



Because apparently vaccinating your kids will cause Autism.


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## Alienfish (Feb 4, 2015)

gnoixaim said:


> Because apparently vaccinating your kids will cause Autism.



And it's against our belief!!111shift


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## Brackets (Feb 4, 2015)

There's actually quite a few reasons why people don't vaccinate (all rubbish of course). It's not just the autism scare, there was also the controversy about the pertussis vaccine causing brain death. And then there's just the hippies moaning on about how they contain mercury and formaldehyde


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## Alienfish (Feb 4, 2015)

Annachie said:


> There's actually quite a few reasons why people don't vaccinate (all rubbish of course). It's not just the autism scare, there was also the controversy about the pertussis vaccine causing brain death. And then there's just the hippies moaning on about how they contain mercury and formaldehyde



Well I'd rather be a fake hippie than getting diseases...


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## lazuli (Feb 4, 2015)

people who dont vaccine are so dumb
like
???????????/
thats your kids life???????? not yours?????????/
why put them in danger bc of your strange ways of thinking

also this is funny (its from an episode of house)

_[House walks away. Cut to the clinic and House is in an exam room with a young mother and her baby.]_

Young Mother: No formula, just mommy’s healthy natural breast milk.

House: Yummy.

Young Mother: Her whole face just got swollen like this overnight.

House: Mmhmm. No fever, glands normal, missing her vaccination dates.

Young Mother: We’re not vaccinating.


Young Mother: _[Takes a toy frog and starts to make frog sounds]_ Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit. _[Giggles]_

_[Baby smiles and giggles too]_

House: Think they don’t work?

Young Mother: I think some multinational pharmaceutical company wants me to think they work. Pad their bottom line.

House: Mmmm. May I? _[He takes the frog and starts to do the gribbit noise with the baby]_

Young Mother: _[Whispered]_ Sure.

House: Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit. _[The baby laughs]_ All natural no dyes. That’s a good business: all-natural children’s toys. Those toy companies, they don’t arbitrarily mark up their frogs. They don’t lie about how much they spend in research and development. The worst a toy company can be accused of is making a really boring frog.

_[Young Mother laughs and so does House. The baby giggles again]_

House: Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit. You know another really good business? Teeny tiny baby coffins. You can get them in frog green or fire engine red. Really. The antibodies in yummy mummy only protect the kid for 6 months, which is why these companies think they can gouge you. They think that you’ll spend whatever they ask to keep your kid alive. Want to change things? Prove them wrong. A few hundred parents like you decide they’d rather let their kid die then cough up 40 bucks for a vaccination, believe me, prices will drop REALLY fast. Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit, gribbit, gribbit.

Young Mother: Tell me what she has.

House: A cold.

_[Cut to House leaving the clinic.]_​


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## Colour Bandit (Feb 4, 2015)

I think that parents should definitely make sure their kids have all the right vaccinations, my parents suffered a lot of backlash from friends and family as they made sure my brother and I had the MMR vaccine when there was all the fuss about it causing autism (load of rubbish) I'm glad my parents made sure we had the MMR vaccine as one of my mum's friends had a baby born a month after me, didn't have the vaccine and got measles, he passed away a few days later due to complications caused by it (he developed pneumonia which his parents didn't recognise) 

But annoyed though as I have to have another MMR booster tomorrow, even though I was told last year I didn't need another one :/ Though I'm having a tetanus booster tomorrow as well since I help my mum with her horse. I'd rather go through feeling nervous about having a needle jabbed in me than actually catching a disease.


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## Pietro:)100 (Feb 4, 2015)

I honestly do not understand why (some) selfish people are against vaccines! When I was small i really didn't like them and screamed and screamed, but now I'm glad that my mum made me! If I didn't have a vaccine (even for small viruses) I could have still got Ill.
I think it's pretty selfish to not give your children vaccines, because they could pass the bug on to other children (that are too young for vaccines) and that wouldn't be very nice for the child or his/her parents.


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## Alolan_Apples (Feb 4, 2015)

gnoixaim said:


> Because apparently vaccinating your kids will cause Autism.



I don't see what's wrong with autism. I have ASD.

Giving vaccines will not always cause autism. That's to some cases. Some people say that it's occuring more often because they are being born too early.

In my opinion, I support vaccination because they did a good job on preventing deadly diseases.


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## Alienfish (Feb 4, 2015)

Apple2012 said:


> I don't see what's wrong with autism. I have ASD.
> 
> Giving vaccines will not always cause autism. That's to some cases. Some people say that it's occuring more often because they are being born too early.
> 
> In my opinion, I support vaccination because they did a good job on preventing deadly diseases.



Nothing is wrong with having it, it's just stupid people who reads propaganda that are.


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## Jeremy (Feb 4, 2015)

Vaccines are good and have generally improved society, but forcing people to get them would be immoral.


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## Stalfos (Feb 4, 2015)

Haha! Seems pretty one-sided, huh? But in all fairness, we have to agnolish that all vaccines aren't perfect. Some have been known to have terrible side-effects. I'm not saying that vaccines are bad, quite the opposite. There are alot of vaccines tht need to be mandatory. Vaccination has saved countless of lives and will continue to do so.

Just don't discard the facts. Get educated.


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## Brackets (Feb 4, 2015)

Apple2012 said:


> Giving vaccines will not always cause autism. That's to some cases.



Actually there's no evidence anywhere to suggest that vaccines EVER causes autism. The original paper was found to be full of holes and irresponsible research and was discredited from the Lancet.


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## Cory (Feb 4, 2015)

If you don't have a vaccine for something dangerous in your area you are retarted, vaccines are one of the best things in medical research history

- - - Post Merge - - -

and everyone should be forced to get them. I don't another thing like the bubonic plague to happen

- - - Post Merge - - -

but hey another thing christians messed up, medical science


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## Pietro:)100 (Feb 4, 2015)

I think they should be compulsory, unless the person has any special (religious ext.) reasons to not have the vaccine. It would be bad to force them. In fact maybe not compulsory at all! Just really highly recommended?


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## Alolan_Apples (Feb 4, 2015)

Annachie said:


> Actually there's no evidence anywhere to suggest that vaccines EVER causes autism. The original paper was found to be full of holes and irresponsible research and was discredited from the Lancet.



That's good that there is no evidence. It must've been a fallacy.

Saying that vaccines causes autism is like saying that riding an elevator makes you evil. I don't see how riding an elevator makes people evil (and no, nobody has said that before).


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## Brackets (Feb 4, 2015)

Apple2012 said:


> That's good that there is no evidence. It must've been a fallacy.
> 
> Saying that vaccines causes autism is like saying that riding an elevator makes you evil. I don't see how riding an elevator makes people evil (and no, nobody has said that before).



Yes, the whole autism thing was a very good example of 'correlation does not always equal causation'.


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## Stevey Queen (Feb 4, 2015)

gnoixaim said:


> Because apparently vaccinating your kids will cause Autism.



Isn't that something you are born with?


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## lazuli (Feb 4, 2015)

LoveMcQueen said:


> Isn't that something you are born with?



people are not smart
people who dont want to vaccinate bc of reasons like this are not smart


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## Cory (Feb 4, 2015)

LoveMcQueen said:


> Isn't that something you are born with?


Yes, but it may not be discovered right away


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## Jeremy (Feb 4, 2015)

Pietro:)100 said:


> I think they should be compulsory, unless the person has any special (religious ext.) reasons to not have the vaccine. It would be bad to force them. In fact maybe not compulsory at all! Just really highly recommended?



There are a lot of good decisions people should make that we don't force them to because we have morals and respect their human rights.


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## gnoixaim (Feb 4, 2015)

Apple2012 said:


> I don't see what's wrong with autism. I have ASD.
> 
> Giving vaccines will not always cause autism. That's to some cases. Some people say that it's occuring more often because they are being born too early.
> 
> In my opinion, I support vaccination because they did a good job on preventing deadly diseases.


I never said it was bad... I just said what I said because that's seriously a reason why some people dont' vaccinate. 


LoveMcQueen said:


> Isn't that something you are born with?



Lol, it's a "side effect" on vaccines - so most people don't want to take the chances ????


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## Brackets (Feb 4, 2015)

Pietro:)100 said:


> I think they should be compulsory, unless the person has any special (religious ext.) reasons to not have the vaccine. It would be bad to force them. In fact maybe not compulsory at all! Just really highly recommended?



I don't think religious reasons are good enough to put you, your children and other children at risk. It's like jehovah's witnesses refusing blood transfusions for their child on religious grounds, it makes me sick.


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## Jeremy (Feb 4, 2015)

Annachie said:


> I don't religious reasons are good enough to put you, your children and other children at risk. It's like jehovah's witnesses refusing blood transfusions for their child on religious grounds, it makes me sick.



The state doesn't own children though.  It's the parents' decision to make.


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## Brackets (Feb 4, 2015)

Jeremy said:


> The state doesn't own children though.  It's the parents' decision to make.



Courts can overrule the parents though.


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## Alolan_Apples (Feb 4, 2015)

gnoixaim said:


> I never said it was bad... I just said what I said because that's seriously a reason why some people dont' vaccinate.



My argument is not just for you, but it's for everyone who's deciding on whether or not they can have vaccines.

I read a few Bible verses about vaccination, but it said nothing about being vaccinated. But there are some religions that do not allow vaccines, which is sad.


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## Eldin (Feb 4, 2015)

I'm for vaccinations. What amazes me is the excuses these parents come up with when confronted with the fact that they are putting other children at risk. 

In one interview I watched, when asked about this, the mother said she didn't feel bad at all because her children don't get sick. That they are incredibly healthy and have strong immune systems because she breastfed them. So they are obviously no risk to other children. 

How reassuring.


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## Roshan (Feb 4, 2015)

hh


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## Dustmop (Feb 4, 2015)

Jeremy said:


> There are a lot of good decisions people should make that we don't force them to because we have morals and respect their human rights.



Thank you. I couldn't have said it any better myself.


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## Swiftstream (Feb 4, 2015)

I really don't understand why people would not get their children vaccinated. And the whole "vaccines cause autism" is a huge misconception. It's just the fact that when babies get most of their vaccinations, it happens to coincide with the time that babies begin to show symptoms of autism.

Furthermore, they need to realize that if they don't vaccinate their kids, its not only their child that they're affecting, but also the people around them who can contract the diseases.


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## isebrilia (Feb 4, 2015)

I'm all about vaccinations. I don't understand why in the world we are still having a "vaccine debate" when these diseases have been eradicated by vaccines. It's so selfish that these parents would rather have a dead child than have one with autism, even though science has proven countless times that vaccinations aren't even connected to autism. The doctor who wrote the discredited paper has been stripped of his medical license. I don't understand why people would want to compromise people who are immunocompromised. The only way for them to fight is for people in their surroundings to be vaccinated. It's amazing how people in third world countries would jump at the opportunity to get a vaccination miles away. People are dying from diseases that could have been prevented.


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## oath2order (Feb 4, 2015)

computertrash said:


> people who dont vaccine are so dumb
> like
> ???????????/
> thats your kids life???????? not yours?????????/
> ...









Found it. hehehe. Figured it'd be on tumblar


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## Ghost Soda (Feb 4, 2015)

Roshan said:


> hhhhhh its all because of religion (inb4 huge **** storm because of my opinion) I think religion is bad. It kills people, it causes ****storms, real life ****storms, people kill other people because they have a different religion, people let their child die because of religion (like not giving them vaccines, let them die because god made them sick etc)
> 
> Tired of seeing it in the news



good on you, m8. after all, it's not like stupidity causes all this and religion is just a dumb excuse or anything!


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## Brackets (Feb 4, 2015)

yeah let's be fair i don't think this is really a religious problem


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## Alolan_Apples (Feb 4, 2015)

Annachie said:


> yeah let's be fair i don't think this is really a religious problem



That, and I don't like seeing religion in a debate like this. It gets too controversial when we go far.


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## Alienfish (Feb 4, 2015)

Apple2012 said:


> That, and I don't like seeing religion in a debate like this. It gets too controversial when we go far.



I don't say religion such as Christianity and those are, more like "alternative" ones that doesn't believe in vaccinating because they are so thinking about the children..


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## Luxanna (Feb 4, 2015)

Solve our problems, if you refuse to get your child vaccinated then you should be required to live in a special area and go to a different school, now when other kids start to die because of your beliefs then well that's drawing the line.
So when these people kids start dying of common but preventable disease maybe they will rethink their decision, Jee how many kids/children  will I basically murder/ let die before I vaccinate them.


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## Dustmop (Feb 4, 2015)

I have a hypothetical question about the "murdering" defense that keeps coming up.

If all of you choose to get your children vaccinated, and I choose not to -- why are you concerned about the "other children" getting sick from the one that's not vaccinated?

Theoretically, all of the other children with "concerned parents" are vaccinated, so potentially exposing them to the disease shouldn't be a concern to anyone except the "selfish" parents and their kids. Yes?

Just curious.


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## Superpenguin (Feb 4, 2015)

I don't think vaccines should be mandatory, but if a doctor finds a parent is refusing to vaccinate their child due to concerns over what's in the vaccine or what negative impacts they fear it could have on their child, then I think the doctor should do their job in educating the patient(s) to encourage them to get vaccinated. If the refusal is based off religious principles or something else entirely, then we should respect that choice.


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## oath2order (Feb 4, 2015)

I kind of think that religion is a part of it, there's no denying that, but I think a larger issue of the natural/holistic/alternative medicine that leads to people not vaccinating. You'll notice that the measles outbreak is in California near Disneyland, and that it's stayed in California. We haven't heard about cases elsewhere, so it stands to reason that people in that region aren't vaccinating.

It's the Los Angeles metropolitan area. The west coast is *not* known to be as religious as other areas. In this case, I think it's safe to say that religion isn't to blame as much as you can blame other beliefs.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Dustmop said:


> If all of you choose to get your children vaccinated, and I choose not to -- why are you concerned about the "other children" getting sick from the one that's not vaccinated?



Because it's nice to care about other people?


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## Beardo (Feb 4, 2015)

It should be completely mandatory and not optional. There are so many dangerous diseases out there, why risk spreading them when there's already a way to prevent it?


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## Superpenguin (Feb 4, 2015)

oath2order said:


> I kind of think that religion is a part of it, there's no denying that, but I think a larger issue of the natural/holistic/alternative medicine that leads to people not vaccinating. You'll notice that the measles outbreak is in California near Disneyland, and that it's stayed in California. We haven't heard about cases elsewhere, so it stands to reason that people in that region aren't vaccinating.
> 
> It's the Los Angeles metropolitan area. The west coast is *not* known to be as religious as other areas. In this case, I think it's safe to say that religion isn't to blame as much as you can blame other beliefs.



Michigan has reported its first Measles case of 2015 recently. It's unclear if there's any connection with the Disneyland outbreak.


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## xTurnip (Feb 4, 2015)

gnoixaim said:


> Because apparently vaccinating your kids will cause Autism.



There have been studies to prove this wrong.


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## Brackets (Feb 4, 2015)

Dustmop said:


> I have a hypothetical question about the "murdering" defense that keeps coming up.
> 
> If all of you choose to get your children vaccinated, and I choose not to -- why are you concerned about the "other children" getting sick from the one that's not vaccinated?
> 
> ...



No. Some people are either too young or too immuno-compromised to be vaccinated. They are therefore relying on herd immunity to protect themselves.
edit: also most vaccines arent 100% effective


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## Aradai (Feb 4, 2015)

honestly it's great to have your child vaccinated, why would you think of not having it? you're going to keep your child healthy and other ones too. if your choice is to not vaccinate them and they get sick, and get another child sick, well then, your action has harmed that child's life.


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## Dustmop (Feb 4, 2015)

Annachie said:


> No. Some people are either too young or too immuno-compromised to be vaccinated. They are therefore relying on herd immunity to protect themselves.
> edit: also most vaccines arent 100% effective



Okay. I have a follow-up question.

If my child is sick, why am I sending him/her to a nursery or a retirement home to infect babies and the elderly?

Rather -- isn't it just common sense to avoid interacting with other people when your kid gets ANYTHING? Even a flu?
I just don't understand how the two are correlated when these theoretical people shouldn't be in close proximity with one another anyway.


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## Trundle (Feb 4, 2015)

Cory said:


> If you don't have a vaccine for something dangerous in your area you are retarted, vaccines are one of the best things in medical research history
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



While I know you're Cory and don't know what you're talking about 98% of the time, Christians did not mess up medical science. I'm not really sure why people are linking not wanting vaccinations to Christianity, but there is nothing wrong with getting vaccinations as a Christian at all. 
Anyway, if you do your research, it was more often than not Christians that were advancing medicine/medical science. While it was not Christians that founded medical science as some falsely believe, they created a lot of good. Even the hospital movement was started by Christians. During the Dark Ages in the days of Feudalism only priests would experiment with science and medicine at all, aside from some high up officials for the King/Queen, etc. Nearly everyone else (about 98-99% of the population) were in the lower class as farmers.


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## Brackets (Feb 4, 2015)

Dustmop said:


> Okay. I have a follow-up question.
> 
> If my child is sick, why am I sending him/her to a nursery or a retirement home to infect babies and the elderly?
> 
> ...



Because people are usually infectious before they are symptomatic.


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## Dustmop (Feb 4, 2015)

Annachie said:


> Because people are usually infectious before they are symptomatic.



fwiw, there's nothing that will convince me the good outweighs the bad when it comes to vaccines. Polio, GBS, autoimmune diseases.. reports of people and animals developing antibodies _to their own DNA_ after immunization, that's messed up. I don't care if it's a small percentage of the time, it happens; and I'd rather get the flu than Polio.

I just wanted to try to understand your side -- and further, how not vaccinating automatically equates to murder according to 90% of this thread.


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## Cory (Feb 4, 2015)

Trundle said:


> While I know you're Cory and don't know what you're talking about 98% of the time, Christians did not mess up medical science. I'm not really sure why people are linking not wanting vaccinations to Christianity, but there is nothing wrong with getting vaccinations as a Christian at all.
> Anyway, if you do your research, it was more often than not Christians that were advancing medicine/medical science. While it was not Christians that founded medical science as some falsely believe, they created a lot of good. Even the hospital movement was started by Christians. During the Dark Ages in the days of Feudalism only priests would experiment with science and medicine at all, aside from some high up officials for the King/Queen, etc. Nearly everyone else (about 98-99% of the population) were in the lower class as farmers.


I think im salty because they persecuted me in old time


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## Improv (Feb 4, 2015)

hey, if a parent wants their children to be at risk for everything under the sun then that's no skin off my back, just bad parenting imo


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## Brackets (Feb 4, 2015)

Dustmop said:


> fwiw, there's nothing that will convince me the good outweighs the bad when it comes to vaccines. Polio, GBS, autoimmune diseases.. reports of people and animals developing antibodies _to their own DNA_ after immunization, that's messed up. I don't care if it's a small percentage of the time, it happens; and I'd rather get the flu than Polio.
> 
> I just wanted to try to understand your side -- and further, how not vaccinating automatically equates to murder according to 90% of this thread.



wait...waht.
you DO know that vaccinations have almost eradicated polio, right? and you're trying to tell me that vaccinations CAUSE polio?
From your questions, you obviously know very little about vaccinations and immunity, and i would advise you to read up about it before disregarding vaccines.

this is a child with smallpox. It killed more people than the Black Death. WARNING - GRAPHIC


Spoiler







this disease no longer exists ... because of vaccinations.


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## a potato (Feb 4, 2015)

I don't understand what's so bad about not getting sick though....


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## Alolan_Apples (Feb 4, 2015)

Beardo said:


> It should be completely mandatory and not optional. There are so many dangerous diseases out there, why risk spreading them when there's already a way to prevent it?



I don't think we need anymore laws. I would safely say that they are highly reccommended, but not required.


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## Improv (Feb 4, 2015)

a potato said:


> I don't understand what's so bad about not getting sick though....



it's not that, it's the argument that
not getting sick > i dont need vaccines


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## Alolan_Apples (Feb 4, 2015)

Annachie said:


> wait...waht.
> you DO know that vaccinations have almost eradicated polio, right? and you're trying to tell me that vaccinations CAUSE polio?
> From your questions, you obviously know very little about vaccinations and immunity, and i would advise you to read up about it before disregarding vaccines.



That person isn't saying that vaccines cause polio. I think he's saying that it's one of the advantages of vaccines - that eradicated polio.


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## Chibiusa (Feb 4, 2015)

I've never been vaccinated once in my life and I turned out just fine.


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## Brackets (Feb 4, 2015)

Apple2012 said:


> That person isn't saying that vaccines cause polio. I think he's saying that it's one of the advantages of vaccines - that eradicated polio.



hmm really? I thought they were saying otherwise, because they said it alongside GBS and autoimmune diseases, which definitely HAVEN'T been eradicated by vaccines. But if I have mis-interpreted, then my bad!


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## Improv (Feb 4, 2015)

Dustmop said:


> Okay. I have a follow-up question.
> 
> If my child is sick, why am I sending him/her to a nursery or a retirement home to infect babies and the elderly?



do you honestly think that people who are too young or too immunocompromised to be vaccinated are only in a nursery or a retirement home????????????????????????
spoiler they're not


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## Brackets (Feb 4, 2015)

Chibiusa said:


> I've never been vaccinated once in my life and I turned out just fine.



please please be being sarcastic
because that's literally the same as saying 'i've never worn my seatbelt and i'm fine, i guess people shouldn't have to wear seatbelts'


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## Alolan_Apples (Feb 4, 2015)

Annachie said:


> please please be being sarcastic
> because that's literally the same as saying 'i've never worn my seatbelt and i'm fine, i guess people shouldn't have to wear seatbelts'



It's also like saying that "you never had any security systems on your computer and you're fine".


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## Chibiusa (Feb 4, 2015)

Annachie said:


> please please be being sarcastic
> because that's literally the same as saying 'i've never worn my seatbelt and i'm fine, i guess people shouldn't have to wear seatbelts'





Apple2012 said:


> It's also like saying that "you never had any security systems on your computer and you're fine".



Check your reading comprehension because not once did I state that just because I turned out fine, no one else should be vaccinated.


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## Brackets (Feb 4, 2015)

Chibiusa said:


> Check your reading comprehension because not once did I state that just because I turned out fine, no one else should be vaccinated.



What was your point then? Btw do you have any medical reasons for not being vaccinated, because i really do recommend it


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## Chibiusa (Feb 4, 2015)

Annachie said:


> What was your point then? Btw do you have any medical reasons for not being vaccinated, because i really do recommend it



Am I not allowed to comment on my experience with the whole vaccination thing?

My mom is a doctor and never wanted me to be vaccinated. I don't remember her exact reasons.


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## Brackets (Feb 4, 2015)

Chibiusa said:


> Am I not allowed to comment on my experience with the whole vaccination thing?



well it would be nice to hear more. like why aren't you vaccinated?


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## Chibiusa (Feb 4, 2015)

Annachie said:


> well it would be nice to hear more. like why aren't you vaccinated?



Edited my post to include why. I haven't bothered with the flu shot or whatever because my grandpa's health went extremely downhill after he got his, so I've been wary. I've done my own research on the whole thing and for the past decade or so it's just been an on-going debate over it--I don't know why it's been so prevalent this year. I guess because of the random measles thing.


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## Brackets (Feb 4, 2015)

Chibiusa said:


> My mom is a doctor and never wanted me to be vaccinated. I don't remember her exact reasons.



wow well ask her
seriously get vaccinated i don't know a single doctor who would advise against it
and i'm sorry about your grandpa but remember correlation doesn't always equal causation


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## Chibiusa (Feb 4, 2015)

Annachie said:


> wow well ask her
> seriously get vaccinated i don't know a single doctor who would advise against it



I know of plenty. When I have time to do my own research maybe then I'll bother. Until then, I'm not going to just go out to get vaccinated because it's the new thing to be all up in arms about over a rare disease more prevalent in children.


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## Brackets (Feb 4, 2015)

Chibiusa said:


> I know of plenty. When I have time to do my own research maybe then I'll bother. Until then, I'm not going to just go out to get vaccinated because it's the new thing to be all up in arms about over a rare disease more prevalent in children.



Mate, it's rare because people vaccinate against it


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## Jawile (Feb 4, 2015)

Ech I can't believe people really think it's not important to get vaccinated

What, do these people want measles and polio? I hate when people say vaccines cause autism because they DON'T. There is literally zero evidence of this and people need to stop ignoring facts


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## Chibiusa (Feb 4, 2015)

Once upon a time, and there still is, evidence linking mercury and other **** found in vaccines to autism. You can't call people idiots for being wary of the ever-changing "facts."

The fact of the matter is that there's evidence for both sides of the argument. There's nothing 100% conclusive yet. You can't be putting people down for not being sure of what's right, especially people with little medical knowledge.


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## Dustmop (Feb 4, 2015)

Annachie said:


> wait...waht.
> you DO know that vaccinations have almost eradicated polio, right? and you're trying to tell me that vaccinations CAUSE polio?
> From your questions, you obviously know very little about vaccinations and immunity, and i would advise you to read up about it before disregarding vaccines.
> 
> ...



Thanks for zeroing in on one thing and then telling me I have no idea what a vaccine is. That's cool. Now granted, most of my knowledge is based on vaccinations *for animals* given my history in vet medicine -- but my questions were brought up, specifically, because of the other comments in the thread. I stated that. Twice.

I mentioned Polio because Gardasil had "caused" Polio in a bunch of young girls last I heard. And death, but that's an aside. But of course, no one will every verify that it caused it, just like they say it's "entirely plausible and possible" that the Hep vaccine causes MS and there's a clear link between the two, but there's never enough "evidence" when it comes to vaccines.


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## Brackets (Feb 4, 2015)

Chibiusa said:


> Once upon a time, and there still is, evidence linking mercury and other **** found in vaccines to autism. You can't call people idiots for being wary of the ever-changing "facts."
> 
> The fact of the matter is that there's evidence for both sides of the argument. There's nothing 100% conclusive yet. You can't be putting people down for not being sure of what's right, especially people with little medical knowledge.



No. Just no. I'm sorry, but not one scientific paper has shown that vaccines are harmful or related to anything like autism, brain death etc. It's all propaganda. Mercury? No scientific evidence linked the trace amounts with any side effects, and it isn't even used in vaccines anymore.

Nothing is 100% conclusive? Ok, let's try this again -
These are some children with polio. They are inside an iron lung because the disease would paralyse their chest muscles. 


Spoiler








Polio is now almost eradicated. 

But I guess there's not conclusive evidence that vaccines work.


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## Roshan (Feb 4, 2015)

Annachie said:


> Courts can overrule the parents though.



Yeah because its basically childabuse imo


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## Brackets (Feb 4, 2015)

Dustmop said:


> Thanks for zeroing in on one thing and then telling me I have no idea what a vaccine is. That's cool. Now granted, most of my knowledge is based on vaccinations *for animals* given my history in vet medicine -- but my questions were brought up, specifically, because of the other comments in the thread. I stated that. Twice.
> 
> I mentioned Polio because Gardasil had "caused" Polio in a bunch of young girls last I heard. And death, but that's an aside. But of course, no one will every verify that it caused it, just like they say it's "entirely plausible and possible" that the Hep vaccine causes MS and there's a clear link between the two, but there's never enough "evidence" when it comes to vaccines.



Again, no studies have found links between vaccines and getting conditions. If i remember correctly there used to be a slightly more aggressive vaccine for polio that could very rarely cause polio, but they quickly altered it. Because there was actually evidence that they were related. Because doctors and scientists don't want to harm people, so they changed it.

And who exactly said it was plausible that Hep vaccine causes MS?

Correlation does not equal causation. Just to give an anecdote of this, I remember reading about a man who went with his young son to get his vaccinations (I think it was for whooping cough). However the queue was so long that he decided to go another day and went home. That night, his son died in his sleep. If the man had got his son the vaccination that day, he probably would have assumed the vaccine caused it. But unfortunately, horrible things like that just happen. People get autism. People get seizures. People die.


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## brutalitea (Feb 4, 2015)

Vaccinations should be compulsory.


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## Greninja (Feb 4, 2015)

I mean you only get the measles shot once so why not just get it? I got the measles shot when I was little and I have all of my shots already so I don't really seethe big deal on not getting vaccinated

But I refuse to get the flu shot since I'm older and can refuse it also has your doctor even try to persuade you to get a certain vaccination because when they asked me if I want the flu shot the try to persuade me to get it after I said no then when I revisited them they tried to convince me AGAIN to get it and my answer was still no gosh these doctors


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## ThomasNLD (Feb 4, 2015)

Yeah, it should be mandatory. Children shouldn`t have to suffer because of irrational/emotional decisions of their parents.


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## DarkOnyx (Feb 4, 2015)

A dead virus being injected into my body? No thank you.


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## Miss Vanian (Feb 4, 2015)

i mean, even if vaccinations did cause autism, (which they don't) would you rather have and autistic kid or a dEAD KID


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## vbunny (Feb 4, 2015)

personally I'll confess to some bias. I'm going into medical assisting so I'd firmly believe in the idea of vaccinations. I also know that the basis for arguing against the vaccines was founded on the work of Andrew Wakefield. He tried linking vaccinations to autism by citing a form of colitis only found in autistic children. In his research he collected a group of children, and tried to claim that the vaccinations gave them this colitis and autism. It was later found out that his sample had a bias since he used children who already had autism as his study sample. He also lost his medical license (though he's somehow practicing in Austin Texas?) and his medical journal on this autism-vaccine link was redacted from the lancet! 

sorry if it got long winded there, I had to do some research on this guy in one of my classes. honestly people who don't get their kids vaccinated really infuriate me.


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## CR33P (Feb 4, 2015)

i think everybody should be vaccinated because if not it poses a public health risk

- - - Post Merge - - -



Miss Vanian said:


> i mean, even if vaccinations did cause autism, (which they don't) would you rather have and autistic kid or a dEAD KID



a dead kid


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## Alolan_Apples (Feb 4, 2015)

Greninja said:


> I mean you only get the measles shot once so why not just get it? I got the measles shot when I was little and I have all of my shots already so I don't really seethe big deal on not getting vaccinated
> 
> But I refuse to get the flu shot since I'm older and can refuse it also has your doctor even try to persuade you to get a certain vaccination because when they asked me if I want the flu shot the try to persuade me to get it after I said no then when I revisited them they tried to convince me AGAIN to get it and my answer was still no gosh these doctors



I never get the flu shots because every year, they mutate. Last year's immunization won't work on next year's flu.


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## talisheo (Feb 5, 2015)

Apple2012 said:


> I never get the flu shots because every year, they mutate. Last year's immunization won't work on next year's flu.



It's not the doctor's fault that the flu virus adapts so quickly. 

But I only don't get the flu shot because I am so lazy with this stuff. Like why should I have to drive all the way to the doctors to sit in a chair for a half hour, get an uncomfortable shot, then get sick from said shot. 8/10 experience.


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## Brackets (Feb 5, 2015)

Yes flu shots change every year, but they are still important for some groups of people. In the UK you only get them if you're at an increased risk of suffering more from the flu. For example I get them because I have bad asthma and flu could exacerbate it. Yes flu mutates and the vaccines for for it are usually 70-80% effective but that's still better than nothing.
Fair enough it's probably not worth you getting it if you're a healthy 20 year old, but for some people flu can kill. And getting slight side effects from the shot is a lot better than death.


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## Astro Cake (Feb 5, 2015)

I don't understand why vaccinations are up for debate in the 21st century.


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## Brackets (Feb 5, 2015)

DarkOnyx said:


> A dead virus being injected into my body? No thank you.



There are several types of vaccine, and they DO sound scary and ridiculous if you don't understand how they work. 
They can be dead, they can be alive but attenuated, they can be segmented, and they can just inject you with a small amount of toxin that a bacteria makes.

Each pathogen (bad bacteria or virus) has its own specific antigens, which trigger our immune system to make the correct antibodies to fight the pathogens. Once you've made those antibodies, they'll stay in your system for a long time, sometimes life. 
Basically what the vaccines do is stimulate your immune system to produce the specific antibodies WITHOUT having to be infected by the disease - your body just THINKS it's infected. Then, if you ARE exposed to the disease, it's ok because you already have the antibodies.

Basically, there's nothing to worry about.


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## nammie (Feb 5, 2015)

people who dont vaccinate their kids are disgusting and need to keep their filthy spawn away from other children.

their BS reasons like my kid's never gotten sick and they're not vaccinated!!! yea and then when they do they'll catch some deadly preventable disease and die good job
the reasoning "I heard it causes autism!!!" (which is 100% false) is so ****ing dumb too like... even if it was true you'd rather have a dead child than one with autism.... ok....


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## Brackets (Feb 5, 2015)

For anyone doubtful about vaccines, I really recommend a book called 'Deadly Choices' by Paul Offit, M.D. It's really good, reads well, very informative and basically destroys any anti-vaccine arguments.


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## KarlaKGB (Feb 5, 2015)

Annachie said:


> For anyone doubtful about vaccines, I really recommend a book called 'Deadly Choices' by Paul Offit, M.D. It's really good, reads well, very informative and basically destroys any anti-vaccine arguments.



wow i didnt kno ur an immunologist too

vaccines r pointless, wen was the last time u heard of a measles outbreak caused by ppl who refused the mmr lmao


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## Alienfish (Feb 5, 2015)

KarlaKGB said:


> wow i didnt kno ur an immunologist too
> 
> vaccines r pointless, wen was the last time u heard of a measles outbreak caused by ppl who refused the mmr lmao



Lol.. recently?


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## KarlaKGB (Feb 5, 2015)

also vaccines r injected

u kno who else injects stuff

druggies.


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## Watchingthetreetops (Feb 5, 2015)

I hate to sound a bit morbid here...but to me, this whole thing is natural selection at work.  I think that autism is a horrible thing to fear; I don't think people realize that their children could potentially /die/ if they don't have these vaccinations.  If they did, I don't know if they would mind autism, and speaking of autism, it isn't caused by vaccines.  The whole autism ordeal is the main reason we're being given that people don't want to vaccinate their children, but there's also religious people who believe in 'praying the diseases away'.  And...I know that people dying in mass amounts is something I do not wish, but at the same time....if you are not educated enough on these issues and choose to sentence a child to a horrible, disease ridden life, or worse, they end up dying, maybe your child should die?  I know how that sounds, but...again, this all boils down to natural selection to me.  If you really don't educate yourself on these things....then maybe we could do without your genetics in the gene pool, and make more space for people who learn and give a damn about the future.

I sound very harsh here...and I'm sorry.  I don't wish anyone to have these diseases.  I am just very disgusted with people, and how they seem to believe that bad things won't happen to them.  We are not gods.  We are made of material that is vulnerable to the elements.  I respect the decision of the parents.  It's their choice, after all.  That respect I have allows me to keep my mouth shut and lower my head, as to not cause a disruption in social settings.  At the same time, it doesn't make me believe that the decision is any less stupid then it is, and if people are /that/ /stupid/, let their genes fizzle out.


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## Brackets (Feb 5, 2015)

^ the thing is, it wouldn't work like that. That's the main issue here. If people start not getting vaccinated, it won't just be them that get ill or die. Firstly, there are people that are too immunocompromised (e.g. AIDS) or too young to be vaccinated. I'm sure you wouldn't be happy if your month-old baby caught whooping cough off someone who didn't get the vaccination.
Secondly, as most vaccines aren't 100% effective we rely on herd immunity to make sure the diseases are kept at bay. In the recent measles outbreaks, some vaccinated people have been affected too.


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## Mango (Feb 5, 2015)

my family doesnt rly do them and we wont start just because some butt is tellin us to


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## Colour Bandit (Feb 5, 2015)

Just gonna post these little things here that I got from a leaflet I read at the doctors today about the effects of mumps, measels and rubella in adults, please feel free to correct me if I get any of these wrong:
 -A rubella infection of a pregnant woman within the first 20 weeks of pregnancy can be serious as it can increase the risk of miscarriage or the child being born with congenital rubella syndrome, which entails a range of serious, incurable illnesses. (Such as sensorineural deafness, eye abnormalities, congenital heart diseases, etc.) so the unvaccinated mother is also risking the life of their unborn child/lowering the quality of life of their unborn child, though the chances of the unborn child being born with congenital rubella syndrome varies from 51% (if the mother is infected with rubella in 0-12 weeks after conception) to 23% (13-26 weeks)
 -Mumps infections in adult men can cause testicular swelling, which can lead to sterility. The symptoms are also much more severe in adults.
 -Measles in pregnant women can increase the risk of miscarriage, stillbirth or premature birth.
Btw, I got this from an NHS leaflet so I'm going to go with this information being trustworthy, but if anyone with actual medical knowledge can correct me if this is wrong that would be good.

I wasn't the only adult going in for the MMR vaccination today (turned out I didn't need it, there was a fault in the surgerys computer system saying I hadn't had the vaccination at all but my paper records showed that I did, computers these days  still got my tetanus booster though) there was a woman planning on having a baby and didn't want to risk the above things and a few people my age who didn't like that their parents chose not to give them the vaccine, plus a fair few school kids and babies.


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## Brackets (Feb 5, 2015)

Mango said:


> my family doesnt rly do them and we wont start just because some butt is tellin us to



'MURICA. No one can take our freedom away from us! Vaccines?!?! The GOVURMENT! Won't do it! No one can take ma FREEDUM away from me! MURICA! MURICA!


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## KarlaKGB (Feb 5, 2015)

Mango said:


> my family doesnt rly do them and we wont start just because some butt is tellin us to



i mean its not like its the hobo from the next alley over telling u to vaccinate ur children


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## Brackets (Feb 5, 2015)

KarlaKGB said:


> i mean its not like its the hobo from the next alley over telling u to vaccinate ur children



doctors tell us to do it and everyone knows that doctors go through 5 years of medical school and 8+ more years of training in order to kill people


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## KarlaKGB (Feb 5, 2015)

Annachie said:


> doctors tell us to do it and everyone knows that doctors go through 5 years of medical school and 8+ more years of training in order to kill people



mango isnt vaccinated

mango is clearly autistic

therefore lack of vaccinations causes autism

QED

cya guys


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## Stevey Queen (Feb 5, 2015)

CR33P said:


> a dead kid



Uh...that's really rude


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## Brad (Feb 5, 2015)

Vaccinate your kids, ya' idiots.


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## Tao (Feb 5, 2015)

Annachie said:


> doctors tell us to do it and everyone knows that doctors go through 5 years of medical school and 8+ more years of training in order to kill people



Those fools! I can achieve the same killing results with no school or training and a large hammer!


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## Maverick215 (Feb 5, 2015)

Forgive me for the dumb question but, say a kid doesn't get vaccinated for some bad disease, and he ends up being a carrier of said disease.  This kid goes to school with a bunch of other kids who got vaccinated for this disease.  Wouldn't their vaccines protect them from the kid that's carrying the disease? 

I know there are unvaccinated carriers spreading stuff like measles and such, but if people are vaccinated, shouldn't they be protected?


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## L. Lawliet (Feb 5, 2015)

Vaccinations need to be mandatory. Nt only are you risking your child's life when you refuse them, you are endangering those around you who are too young or weak to get a vaccine against the disease. It is irresponsible parenting.


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## Improv (Feb 5, 2015)

Maverick215 said:


> Forgive me for the dumb question but, say a kid doesn't get vaccinated for some bad disease, and he ends up being a carrier of said disease.  This kid goes to school with a bunch of other kids who got vaccinated for this disease.  Wouldn't their vaccines protect them from the kid that's carrying the disease?
> 
> I know there are unvaccinated carriers spreading stuff like measles and such, but if people are vaccinated, shouldn't they be protected?



not 100%


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## crestedbooka (Feb 5, 2015)

Maverick215 said:


> Forgive me for the dumb question but, say a kid doesn't get vaccinated for some bad disease, and he ends up being a carrier of said disease.  This kid goes to school with a bunch of other kids who got vaccinated for this disease.  Wouldn't their vaccines protect them from the kid that's carrying the disease?
> 
> I know there are unvaccinated carriers spreading stuff like measles and such, but if people are vaccinated, shouldn't they be protected?



it was brought up some pages earlier:



Annachie said:


> No. Some people are either too young or too immuno-compromised to be vaccinated. They are therefore relying on herd immunity to protect themselves.


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## Maverick215 (Feb 5, 2015)

Ahh that makes sense, thanks!


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## f11 (Feb 5, 2015)

DarkOnyx said:


> A dead virus being injected into my body? No thank you.


tHeres a reason its called a DEAD virus. It's not harmful.


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## Trundle (Feb 5, 2015)

KarlaKGB said:


> mango isnt vaccinated
> 
> mango is clearly autistic
> 
> ...



LOL GG
and on the topic of post quality something something vaccinations something something everyone over reacts about everything


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## Aryxia (Feb 5, 2015)

Why is this even up for debate? 
1.Vaccines are dead viruses. They can't hurt you.
2.There are worse chemicals in your snacks than in vaccines, which are in extremely small quantities anyway.
3. Andrew Wakefield, the scientist who originally claimed that vaccines cause autism has admitted to fabricating his data and has been completely discredited.
Not everyone can get vaccinated. Don't be an assclown. You could kill or seriously hurt someone.


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## Brackets (Feb 6, 2015)

Crys said:


> tHeres a reason its called a DEAD virus. It's not harmful.



This exactly. Like do people really think doctors are going to deliberately try and harm you with vaccines? It's depressing, so much work has gone into vaccines, they've been tested and proven to work yet people still believe the propaganda of wackos over people with actual medical and science training

Also, fun fact: as part of my degree we have to learn research studies and be able to evaluate and analyse research papers. Andrew Wakefield's paper was given to us to study as an example of BAD research


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## DarkOnyx (Feb 6, 2015)

Crys said:


> tHeres a reason its called a DEAD virus. It's not harmful.



I know, but it's still a virus and I don't want one in my body.


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## Improv (Feb 6, 2015)

DarkOnyx said:


> I know, but it's still a virus and I don't want one in my body.



But what's going to happen when you contract the ACTUAL virus and your immune system hasn't been exposed to it before, and is lacking antibodies to help fight it? You're going to be so much more sick than if you had built up immunity beforehand by getting the vaccine.


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## DarkOnyx (Feb 6, 2015)

Improv said:


> But what's going to happen when you contract the ACTUAL virus and your immune system hasn't been exposed to it before, and is lacking antibodies to help fight it? You're going to be so much more sick than if you had built up immunity beforehand by getting the vaccine.



I'd get a vaccine for diseases that kill most of the people that come in contact with it, but for the others, no thank you.


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## Sanaki (Feb 6, 2015)

DarkOnyx said:


> I'd get a vaccine for diseases that kill most of the people that come in contact with it, but for the others, no thank you.



So you'd rather get the real thing? But you're probably not old enough to understand.


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## DarkOnyx (Feb 6, 2015)

Ahri said:


> So you'd rather get the real thing? But you're probably not old enough to understand.



Okay, that's fine.


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## Alienfish (Feb 6, 2015)

Annachie said:


> This exactly. Like do people really think doctors are going to deliberately try and harm you with vaccines? It's depressing, so much work has gone into vaccines, they've been tested and proven to work yet people still believe the propaganda of wackos over people with actual medical and science training
> 
> Also, fun fact: as part of my degree we have to learn research studies and be able to evaluate and analyse research papers. Andrew Wakefield's paper was given to us to study as an example of BAD research



Yeah.. people are more likely to turn to attention seekers than facts.


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## matthevvv (Feb 6, 2015)

if you don't vaccinate your kids, you are an utter idiot. plain and simple.


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## Brackets (Feb 6, 2015)

DarkOnyx said:


> I'd get a vaccine for diseases that kill most of the people that come in contact with it, but for the others, no thank you.



So wait. Are you vaccinated or not then?

And you're only fearing it because you don't undestand. It's like when they developed the smallpox vaccines from cows and they thought it would turn you into cows. If you knew how vaccines work you'd know they're not dangerous.


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## Stalfos (Feb 6, 2015)

I was vaccinated for the more serious diseases, and that's fine - people really shouldn't take the risk when it comes to those. But I'm glad I didn't take the Pandemrix-vaccine for the swine flu that caused some people to get narcolepsy. Bunch of clowns putting out an untested vaccine like that.

Not that I would have taken it anyway. You don't need to vaccinate for every little thing, you know?


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## Brackets (Feb 6, 2015)

Stalfos said:


> I was vaccinated for the more serious diseases, and that's fine - people really shouldn't take the risk when it comes to those. But I'm glad I didn't take the Pandemrix-vaccine for the swine flu that caused some people to get narcolepsy. Bunch of clowns putting out an untested vaccine like that.
> 
> Not that I would have taken it anyway. You don't need to vaccinate for every little thing, you know?



Flu vaccines are usually only offered to people in high-risk groups though, to be fair. Well at least in my country you only get the vaccine for free if you're in a high risk group - you can pay if you really want it haha. I've seen so many people say 'lol why vaccinate for flu it's just flu innit' but in more susceptible groups it can be deadly. I get flu vaccine every year because if I got flu I would quite likely be hospitalised.


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## RiceBunny (Feb 6, 2015)

Most vaccines are important, specially the ones you get when young. It's also important to know "what" is inside those vaccines though. There might be certain unnecessary harmful chemicals in the vaccine, that you might not want in your body. I think there's a middle ground for everything. People should stop being stupid, and get vaccinated. However, we also need to make sure we know what is in the vaccines. Being "cheap" when it comes to vaccines isn't going to help anyone. Unfortunately, that's what a lot of pharmaceutical companies do in general. 
Humans need to stop blindly following like sheep. "Oh I need this vaccine?! Ok doctor, whatever you say!" No! Ask questions. Ask what is in it, then go home and do your research on it. Be well informed and expect your doctor to be well informed as well. A doctor that doesn't know what is inside what he's giving you, isn't a doctor you want to keep seeing. This doesn't just apply to vaccines, it applies to everything. 
We're bred since kids to just "trust" doctors and what they say. That seriously needs to stop. Doctors are humans too, and unfortunately they don't always keep up to date with everything. They don't always know what is best. It's up to the individual to seek knowledge and hear different opinions.

Also, flu vaccines are a joke. The only time I ever got sick from the flu was when my mother forced me to get vaccinated. I haven't been vaccinated since, and haven't gotten sick since. She also stopped getting sick once she stopped getting flu shots(I convinced her). I rather take my chances on that one.


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## Brackets (Feb 6, 2015)

RiceBunny said:


> Most vaccines are important, specially the ones you get when young. It's also important to know "what" is inside those vaccines though. There might be certain unnecessary harmful chemicals in the vaccine, that you might not want in your body. I think there's a middle ground for everything. People should stop being stupid, and get vaccinated. However, we also need to make sure we know what is in the vaccines. Being "cheap" when it comes to vaccines isn't going to help anyone. Unfortunately, that's what a lot of pharmaceutical companies do in general.
> Humans need to stop blindly following like sheep. "Oh I need this vaccine?! Ok doctor, whatever you say!" No! Ask questions. Ask what is in it, then go home and do your research on it. Be well informed and expect your doctor to be well informed as well. A doctor that doesn't know what is inside what he's giving you, isn't a doctor you want to keep seeing. This doesn't just apply to vaccines, it applies to everything.
> We're bred since kids to just "trust" doctors and what they say. That seriously needs to stop. Doctors are humans too, and unfortunately they don't always keep up to date with everything. They don't always know what is best. It's up to the individual to seek knowledge and hear different opinions.
> 
> Also, flu vaccines are a joke. The only time I ever got sick from the flu was when my mother forced me to get vaccinated. I haven't been vaccinated since, and haven't gotten sick since. She also stopped getting sick once she stopped getting flu shots(I convinced her). I rather take my chances on that one.



This is the problem with today's society. Because people have access to the internet, they think their own pitiful research (most likely on non-reliable sites) will make them better informed than doctors, scientists, and researchers - all the people who are qualified to actually do this ****. There are people out there who don't just look at research on the internet, they actually CARRY OUT research and see which vaccines/drugs/whatever are best. It's their JOB. That is then fed back to whatever your country's medical council is, and they make guidelines and inform the doctors on what to use. If you really expect doctors to remember exactly what is in every drug and vaccine, you are having a laugh, they have SO much to remember already. That is what the scientists and researchers are for. If there was a major problem with a drug/vaccine, it would be picked up, especially after years of it being in use. And side-effects/dangers HAVE been picked up before. And they admit to it, and change it, because surprisingly enough, doctors and researchers don't have some secret mission to kill and harm people.

Yes, doctors make mistakes, I've seen it enough times. But by giving the wrong diagnosis, etc. But you can't expect them to thoroughly research every drug - that is SOMEONE ELSE's job. But the vaccines are well researched. The 'chemicals' you talk about are at nowhere near high enough concentration to be harmful, don't worry.

And see my above comment for flu jabs.


----------



## RiceBunny (Feb 6, 2015)

Annachie said:


> This is the problem with today's society. Because people have access to the internet, they think their own pitiful research (most likely on non-reliable sites) will make them better informed than doctors, scientists, and researchers - all the people who are qualified to actually do this ****. There are people out there who don't just look at research on the internet, they actually CARRY OUT research and see which vaccines/drugs/whatever are best. It's their JOB. That is then fed back to whatever your country's medical council is, and they make guidelines and inform the doctors on what to use. If you really expect doctors to remember exactly what is in every drug and vaccine, you are having a laugh, they have SO much to remember already. That is what the scientists and researchers are for. If there was a major problem with a drug/vaccine, it would be picked up, especially after years of it being in use. And side-effects/dangers HAVE been picked up before. And they admit to it, and change it, because surprisingly enough, doctors and researchers don't have some secret mission to kill and harm people.
> 
> Yes, doctors make mistakes, I've seen it enough times. But by giving the wrong diagnosis, etc. But you can't expect them to thoroughly research every drug - that is SOMEONE ELSE's job. But the vaccines are well researched. The 'chemicals' you talk about are at nowhere near high enough concentration to be harmful, don't worry.
> 
> And see my above comment for flu jabs.



I'm only going to reply to you once. Yes, I do expect my doctor to know what is inside the vaccine he's trying to push me. He's a *DOCTOR*. He's not some mindless robot that has one single task. I never said people should do research and stop there. They should do their research from reputable sources and get back to their doctors with it. Communication between a doctor and a patient is important, and should be encouraged. Also, I'll have you know a lot of people publish their researches, specially online nowadays. Doctors should be expected to always keep to date on latest researches and methods. I've seen a lot of doctors being presented with new methods by their patients, and that's a sad sign that doctors aren't doing the best they can. If a patient has to direct you to the latest methods being used, or the latest research on certain medicines, then you're failing at your job. You don't understand that a lot of doctors nowadays just care about money, and see their profession as simply that, just a job. I'm not going to go into it, because it's a whole different subject altogether. However, doctors going into the field for money creates doctors that are lazy and only do the bare minimum. They'll be just like you said- they'll wait for others to tell them what the new minimum is. Instead they should be encouraged more to be innovative and always be up to date.

Another thing. You don't know what "chemicals" I'm talking about, so don't sit there and say "they're safe". We could go into specifics and which ones are actually harmful and shouldn't be in vaccines, but that would turn into a long debate. This isn't the place for that. Humans shouldn't be guinea pigs where the industry can push out a somewhat safe vaccine, and then see how it goes from there. Yes humans are different and will react to certain drugs differently. But they should already take that into account before even pushing it out. If drugs/vaccines are having to be pulled back for "revision", then they have failed. It's that simple. I never said they're the devils. I said they need to do better. We all need to do better.

I'm speaking from experience here. I had to go through 7 different doctors before I finally found one that could properly help me with my PCOS. The last one finally was up to date, and knew that pushing birth control on me wasn't going to help. Matter of fact having me on birth control was going to make it worse. It DID make it worse, but I was told by others I had no choice. Now my symptoms are barely there, if even there at all. There's no cure yet, but at least it's being properly managed.

Disclaimer: I trust the MHRA(UK), but don't trust the FDA(US). The FDA is *known* for pushing things through if their "palms" are greased up a bit, if you catch my drift. Then **** hits the fan and lawsuits happen. So for the sake of this argument, what country you're from actually matters.


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## Brackets (Feb 6, 2015)

RiceBunny said:


> I'm only going to reply to you once. Yes, I do expect my doctor to know what is inside the vaccine he's trying to push me. He's a *DOCTOR*. He's not some mindless robot that has one single task. I never said people should do research and stop there. They should do their research from reputable sources and get back to their doctors with it. Communication between a doctor and a patient is important, and should be encouraged. Also, I'll have you know a lot of people publish their researches, specially online nowadays. Doctors should be expected to always keep to date on latest researches and methods. I've seen a lot of doctors being presented with new methods by their patients, and that's a sad sign that doctors aren't doing the best they can. If a patient has to direct you to the latest methods being used, or the latest research on certain medicines, then you're failing at your job. You don't understand that a lot of doctors nowadays just care about money, and see their profession as simply that, just a job. I'm not going to go into it, because it's a whole different subject altogether. However, doctors going into the field for money creates doctors that are lazy and only do the bare minimum. They'll be just like you said- they'll wait for others to tell them what the new minimum is. Instead they should be encouraged more to be innovative and always be up to date.
> 
> Another thing. You don't know what "chemicals" I'm talking about, so don't sit there and say "they're safe". We could go into specifics and which ones are actually harmful and shouldn't be in vaccines, but that would turn into a long debate. This isn't the place for that. Humans shouldn't be guinea pigs where the industry can push out a somewhat safe vaccine, and then see how it goes from there. Yes humans are different and will react to certain drugs differently. But they should already take that into account before even pushing it out. If drugs/vaccines are having to be pulled back for "revision", then they have failed. It's that simple. I never said they're the devils. I said they need to do better. We all need to do better.
> 
> ...



Er I KNOW research articles are online, but most of the general public don't know how to analyse them and actually see if they're good research. Researchers who spend their entire LIVES doing it will know better than you.
I'm a medical student and yes doctors should be kept up to date, obviously - but we have to learn hundreds of medications and it is simply NOT POSSIBLE to read all the latest articles on each one. If something major happens, like a drug is no longer suitable with a certain condition or a new side effect is found, blah blah blah, yes, the doctor should know that. But the tiny specifics and what is in each drug or vaccine? No. I assume you are talking about GPs here, and since they have to have such a broad knowledge of medicine you can't expect them to know the details on EVERYTHING.

Trials are always carried out before a drug or vaccine is released, so no, humans aren't guinea pigs, but sometimes things can go wrong and people are getting better at it. 

I'm not saying doctors or researchers are perfect, and yes it's good not to follow them blindly, and yes certainly doctors have money interests especially america, which is why I'm glad I'm british, but seriously, if there is something wrong with a vaccine it is NOT going to be some random person like you derping about on the internet who finds it. There is NO evidence to show that today's current vaccines are particularly harmful - if there was, they would be removed. Simple.


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## Trundle (Feb 6, 2015)

RiceBunny said:


> I'm only going to reply to you once. Yes, I do expect my doctor to know what is inside the vaccine he's trying to push me. He's a *DOCTOR*. He's not some mindless robot that has one single task. I never said people should do research and stop there. They should do their research from reputable sources and get back to their doctors with it. Communication between a doctor and a patient is important, and should be encouraged. Also, I'll have you know a lot of people publish their researches, specially online nowadays. Doctors should be expected to always keep to date on latest researches and methods. I've seen a lot of doctors being presented with new methods by their patients, and that's a sad sign that doctors aren't doing the best they can. If a patient has to direct you to the latest methods being used, or the latest research on certain medicines, then you're failing at your job. You don't understand that a lot of doctors nowadays just care about money, and see their profession as simply that, just a job. I'm not going to go into it, because it's a whole different subject altogether. However, doctors going into the field for money creates doctors that are lazy and only do the bare minimum. They'll be just like you said- they'll wait for others to tell them what the new minimum is. Instead they should be encouraged more to be innovative and always be up to date.
> 
> Another thing. You don't know what "chemicals" I'm talking about, so don't sit there and say "they're safe". We could go into specifics and which ones are actually harmful and shouldn't be in vaccines, but that would turn into a long debate. This isn't the place for that. Humans shouldn't be guinea pigs where the industry can push out a somewhat safe vaccine, and then see how it goes from there. Yes humans are different and will react to certain drugs differently. But they should already take that into account before even pushing it out. If drugs/vaccines are having to be pulled back for "revision", then they have failed. It's that simple. I never said they're the devils. I said they need to do better. We all need to do better.
> 
> ...



This would probably be interesting to read but I got 2 lines in and now I have a headache.


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## RiceBunny (Feb 6, 2015)

Trundle said:


> This would probably be interesting to read but I got 2 lines in and now I have a headache.



Really?! I think the color is cute xD Sorry it gave you a headache!


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## Brackets (Feb 6, 2015)

RiceBunny said:


> Really?! I think the color is cute xD Sorry it gave you a headache!



also like ditch the comic sans if you want people to take you seriously lol


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## DarkOnyx (Feb 6, 2015)

Annachie said:


> So wait. Are you vaccinated or not then?
> 
> And you're only fearing it because you don't undestand. It's like when they developed the smallpox vaccines from cows and they thought it would turn you into cows. If you knew how vaccines work you'd know they're not dangerous.



I'm not scared of vaccines. They aren't going to hurt anyone, but it's still a virus, harmful or not. It's gross just injecting it into your body. Yes, I am vaccinated. I don't like vaccines but i'm not going to take a risk on a disease that kills most of it's victims. But I'm not getting any vaccines like the flu or something.


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## RiceBunny (Feb 6, 2015)

Annachie said:


> also like ditch the comic sans if you want people to take you seriously lol



No, I like it. It's the closest to my actual hand writing. 

Also, that was an unnecessarily *****y comment. I understand you feel strongly about this "vaccination" thing. And it's also quite clear you have a hard time dealing with other people's opinions. However, maybe try to take a breather and not be so aggressive?! It's an Animal Crossing forum full of nice folks. Chill. <3


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## Brackets (Feb 6, 2015)

RiceBunny said:


> No, I like it. It's the closest to my actual hand writing.
> 
> Also, that was an unnecessarily *****y comment. I understand you feel strongly about this "vaccination" thing. And it's also quite clear you have a hard time dealing with other people's opinions. However, maybe try to take a breather and not be so aggressive?! It's an Animal Crossing forum full of nice folks. Chill. <3



lol i wasn't being aggressive at all, i've just been putting my views across. maybe learn to take a joke and stop being so sensitive? chill <3


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## LailahBells (Feb 6, 2015)

I think vaccination is absolutely necessary! It shouldn't be mandatory though, because that crosses a boundary I rather the government not cross. The government shouldn't have that much control over people's body and what they choose to do with it. Just thinking about the government having that much power makes me cringe.

*RiceBunny*, I agree with you. That was a really interesting read, and a well put argument. Btw don't pay any mind to Annachie. From the looks of it she barks at everyone who shares even a slight difference of opinion. It's that kind of behavior that gets good threads like this one closed.

Ah, I almost forgot. Do you follow holistichabits? You strike me as the kind of person that would.


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## L. Lawliet (Feb 6, 2015)

this is getting good. just like an actual debate.

Anywho, interesting story.
My old cardiologist was in the news for recommending kids not get vaccines


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## RiceBunny (Feb 6, 2015)

LailahBells said:


> I think vaccination is absolutely necessary! It shouldn't be mandatory though, because that crosses a boundary I rather the government not cross. The government shouldn't have that much control over people's body and what they choose to do with it. Just thinking about the government having that much power makes me cringe.
> 
> *RiceBunny*, I agree with you. That was a really interesting read, and a well put argument. Btw don't pay any mind to Annachie. From the looks of it she barks at everyone who shares even a slight difference of opinion. It's that kind of behavior that gets good threads like this one closed.
> 
> Ah, I almost forgot. Do you follow holistichabits? You strike me as the kind of person that would.



Hey you. ^.^ And yes, I do actually follow her O_O She's amazing! I've learned so much from her over the years, I don't know what I'd do without her videos. She has a really good video on how to deal with anxiety naturally. It helped me tons! I don't know how she feels about vaccines though. Actually, that's a really good idea for  video. I'll drop a comment saying I'd love to know what her views are on vaccines xD Though I'm afraid I might not agree with her =x We'll see! ^.^
Also, I'm glad you liked the read. I personally thought it was a bit too long. And yes, I've noticed that lol I wasn't even going to reply to be honest. It's not worth it, and if fighting happens a mod might come and close the thread. Sometimes it's just better to not feed people like that.


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## Dustmop (Feb 7, 2015)

LailahBells said:


> It shouldn't be mandatory though, because that crosses a boundary I rather the government not cross. *The government shouldn't have that much control over people's body and what they choose to do with it.* Just thinking about the government having that much power makes me cringe.



Could not have said that better myself. 

Regardless of anyone's feelings on the matter, the idea of it becoming a regulated law and forcing people into it does not sit well with me at all.


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## Brackets (Feb 7, 2015)

LailahBells said:


> *RiceBunny*, I agree with you. That was a really interesting read, and a well put argument. Btw don't pay any mind to Annachie. From the looks of it she barks at everyone who shares even a slight difference of opinion. It's that kind of behavior that gets good threads like this one closed.



Umm hey have you seen the title of this thread? It's called 'DEBATE: vaccines'. Do you know what a debate is? It's when people put across their different views on a matter. I have not 'barked' or been at all aggressive on this thread. I've not personally attacked anyone. I think some of you need to grow up and learn how to cope when someone disagrees with you.

- - - Post Merge - - -



RiceBunny said:


> Also, I'm glad you liked the read. I personally thought it was a bit too long. And yes, I've noticed that lol I wasn't even going to reply to be honest. It's not worth it, and if fighting happens a mod might come and close the thread. Sometimes it's just better to not feed people like that.



see above: it was a DEBATE. fine if you don't want to have one, but don't act like i'm some nasty troll or something, jesus christ you people are sensitive.


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## KarlaKGB (Feb 7, 2015)

Annachie said:


> Umm hey have you seen the title of this thread? It's called 'DEBATE: vaccines'. Do you know what a debate is? It's when people put across their different views on a matter. I have not 'barked' or been at all aggressive on this thread. I've not personally attacked anyone. I think some of you need to grow up and learn how to cope when someone disagrees with you.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



stop barking or we will have to muzzle u :')


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## Brackets (Feb 7, 2015)

Dustmop said:


> Could not have said that better myself.
> 
> Regardless of anyone's feelings on the matter, the idea of it becoming a regulated law and forcing people into it does not sit well with me at all.



mmmm I don't know though - since most people get most of their important vaccines before they're old enough to have a clue about what's going on, I think it's more of a question of the *parent's* choice versus the government/doctor/whatever. 
I and most other people were vaccinated without being asked first - it was my parents decision. And likewise, if you're not vaccinated when you're young, that's not your choice either, it's the parents. When you're that young, you don't really have control over your body or medical treatment - lailahbells was saying the government shouldn't have control over your body but the fact is you don't anyway when you're that young.

So I think the real question is, should parents get to override what doctors think is best for their children?


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## aliscka (Feb 7, 2015)

I haven't gone back to read everything else in the thread, but I will say that I do think everyone should get vaccines. And, personally, I think that the government should have the ability to force people to have vaccines... sorry, guys!

It's simply because I think it's awful that nearly eradicated diseases are now making a comeback because more and more parents are deciding not to vaccinate their children. I've heard reasons from religious beliefs (which I think should be considered abuse by negligence if the child becomes ill) to possibility of mental disorders/autism (this one will ALWAYS make me angry. It has been stated several times that the study was later proven to be false and that there is NO correlation between vaccines and mental disorders, and yet people continue to believe and spread the false info! Plus, are parents aware that autism is genetic? And that your child won't DEVELOP it, because they are BORN with it? Please love your autistic children no matter what.)

There's also the idea of tragedy of the commons. Parents won't vaccinate their child because they believe all the other parents will, and then their child will be safe from any potential diseases because all the other children will have been vaccinated... except this isn't the case because more and more parents are opting to be "vaccine-free."

Vaccines are good, guys. Shots are good. People _need_ them, and I'm tired of watching children suffer for their parents' stupidity.


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## Celestefey (Feb 7, 2015)

LailahBells said:


> I think vaccination is absolutely necessary! It shouldn't be mandatory though, because that crosses a boundary I rather the government not cross. The government shouldn't have that much control over people's body and what they choose to do with it. Just thinking about the government having that much power makes me cringe.



So you think that vaccines should not be mandatory and therefore endanger masses and masses of people to deadly diseases we could have easily eradicated? Surely we are doing what we think is best for the people here, right, and what is in fact the best choice? Unless people are more than happy to live and die with a painful disease, then, you know...


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## infinikitten (Feb 7, 2015)

KarlaKGB said:


> stop barking or we will have to muzzle u :')



Bless this post. :')


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## L. Lawliet (Feb 7, 2015)

The govt should force us to get vaccines. id rather get a shot than get measles. its stupid parenting to not get a vaccine for your child. Unless he/she are too weak/young to get them.

It's like this. If Person A doesnt give their child a vaccine, person B's kid with leukemia will get sick because Person A has no regard for other peoples needs.


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## laineybop (Feb 7, 2015)

I have absolutely no problem with whether or not other people decide to vaccinate their children. That's their right as a parent to decide what is best for their child & their family. I had a kid, I vaccinated him, & it was my decision as his mother to do so. What I DO have a problem with is their unvaccinated child coming into contact with a disease that's been virtually killed off in the US & then spreading it to other people. If you want to keep your child vaccine free, fine, do that...But then keep your kid away from everyone else. Homeschool them, stay out of Disneyland, don't bring them to the grocery store & do it without complaint. Because your child is now a danger to all the other children who, for whatever reason, CAN'T be vaccinated. The ones that are too young & the ones that are immune compromised...


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## tobi! (Feb 7, 2015)

I'll throw in my two cents...

I do believe vaccines are good but I don't think they should be forced. However, if your child dies from a disease that could have been prevented...well, who would you blame?


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## Brackets (Feb 7, 2015)

I've been thinking about it and I really do think they should be forced. People say well it's their own fault, but a) it can affect others too, and b) why would you want innocent children to get ill or die because of their parent's idiotic beliefs? It's easy to say 'I told you so, idiots' about the parents, but what about the poor child? 

This reminded me of that fiasco in Britain a few years back about that child Neon Roberts who had brain cancer, and his mother tried to stop him getting the radiotherapy he needed because she didn't think it was safe enough. There was a huge court case and she was overruled, the kid was treated and now he's doing well. In my opinion parents should NOT always have all the responsibility and decisions for their children.


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## Aryxia (Feb 7, 2015)

laineybop said:


> I have absolutely no problem with whether or not other people decide to vaccinate their children. That's their right as a parent to decide what is best for their child & their family. I had a kid, I vaccinated him, & it was my decision as his mother to do so. What I DO have a problem with is their unvaccinated child coming into contact with a disease that's been virtually killed off in the US & then spreading it to other people. If you want to keep your child vaccine free, fine, do that...But then keep your kid away from everyone else. Homeschool them, stay out of Disneyland, don't bring them to the grocery store & do it without complaint. Because your child is now a danger to all the other children who, for whatever reason, CAN'T be vaccinated. The ones that are too young & the ones that are immune compromised...



You. I like you.


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## DoctorGallifrey (Feb 7, 2015)

If you and your child are old enough, then you must get it. In fact, it needs to be mandatory. That way it reduces the chances of you getting it and spreading it further. 

I find it funny how when Ebola was a thing, everyone in the US was going crazy and trying to stay as healthy as possible, even though only 5 people were confirmed to have it within our borders. Yet here we are with a disease that was seemingly eradicated in the westernized world that came back out of nowhere, yet people refuse to get a vaccine to keep them safe.


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## Murray (Feb 7, 2015)

Brackets said:


> This reminded me of that fiasco in Britain a few years back about that child Neon Roberts who had brain cancer, and his mother tried to stop him getting the radiotherapy he needed because she didn't think it was safe enough. There was a huge court case and she was overruled, the kid was treated and now he's doing well. *In my opinion parents should NOT always have all the responsibility and decisions for their children.*



So who should have responsibility for their children, the state?


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## Brackets (Feb 7, 2015)

Murray said:


> So who should have responsibility for their children, the state?



Yes, but only if the parent is making a stupid decision, like in the case I mentioned above, or about vaccines. 
However although I think it would be great if vaccines were enforced, it would probably provoke more anti-vaccine protests.


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## Murray (Feb 7, 2015)

Brackets said:


> Yes, but only if the parent is making a stupid decision, like in the case I mentioned above, or about vaccines.
> However although I think it would be great if vaccines were enforced, it would probably provoke more anti-vaccine protests.



So whether you have control/responsibility over your children depends on intelligence? Assuming simplistic terms is what your saying that if a parent makes a decision that is judged to be stupid, they relinquish responsibility for their children? Although I do agree that there are some situations where government control is beneficial in regards to things such as this, I find it hard to believe that enforcing it because a parent is deemed stupid (AKA not agree with the state's views) is right.


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## Brackets (Feb 7, 2015)

Murray said:


> So whether you have control/responsibility over your children depends on intelligence? Assuming simplistic terms is what your saying that if a parent makes a decision that is judged to be stupid, they relinquish responsibility for their children? Although I do agree that there are some situations where government control is beneficial in regards to things such as this, I find it hard to believe that enforcing it because a parent is deemed stupid (AKA not agree with the state's views) is right.



I didn't at all say it depended on intelligence (people can be very intelligent and be anti-vaccines), but if a parent makes a, let's say, reckless decision about their child that may endanger the child or other children around it, then why shouldn't the state take control and override that decision, or at least take action?


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## Murray (Feb 7, 2015)

Brackets said:


> I didn't at all say it depended on intelligence (people can be very intelligent and be anti-vaccines), but if a parent makes a, let's say, reckless decision about their child that may endanger the child or other children around it, then why shouldn't the state take control and override that decision, or at least take action?



You just said the same thing but replaced the word stupid with reckless, so I still stand by what I said.


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## Brackets (Feb 7, 2015)

Murray said:


> You just said the same thing but replaced the word stupid with reckless, so I still stand by what I said.



I don't really get what you're trying to say. (And I just asked a question and you didn't answer it) Yes, I think not vaccinating your children is a stupid decision and it should be looked into. Why is it wrong for people to intervene if parents do something stupid? There are plenty of other stupid decisions parents can make - if the police saw parents not using a seatbelt on their children because they can't be bothered, they would intervene and fine them. Why is endangering your children by not vaccinating any different?


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## KarlaKGB (Feb 7, 2015)

i too draw the line at forcing ppl to get vaccinated


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## loreiid (Feb 7, 2015)

People say its horrible to force humans to get vaccines, so its your choice, but then society may say it should be mandatory because it may cause bad health. so really its kind of a constant tug of war.
Weather it becomes mandatory or stays un-mandatory, society will constantly get in an uproar, its inevitable.


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## Murray (Feb 7, 2015)

Brackets said:


> I don't really get what you're trying to say. (And I just asked a question and you didn't answer it) Yes, I think not vaccinating your children is a stupid decision and it should be looked into. Why is it wrong for people to intervene if parents do something stupid? There are plenty of other stupid decisions parents can make - if the police saw parents not using a seatbelt on their children because they can't be bothered, they would intervene and fine them. Why is endangering your children by not vaccinating any different?



Your seatbelt analogy isn't legit. Since not vaccinating your children isn't illegal, you could only compare it against something that is also legal, whereas since not wearing your seatbelt is already illegal. Therefore your analogy is illogical because it relies on the belief that vaccinations should be mandatory to be true (which is the core topic of the debate). Since your analogy tries to support that belief, it doesn't really work (think the bible is true because it says so in the bible sort of situation).

However I have to agree with you in a way, because I believe it is the responsibility of the state to protect its people, in this case, from each other. But I think that the idea of the parents losing responsibility of their children to the state comes close to crossing the line of children being raised by the government. Should parents be punished for messing up (when not breaking the law)? I think not. Should vaccines be mandatory? Perhaps so.


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## ThomasNLD (Feb 7, 2015)

Spoopy Christe said:


> People say its horrible to force humans to get vaccines, so its your choice, but then society may say it should be mandatory because it may cause bad health. so really its kind of a constant tug of war.
> Weather it becomes mandatory or stays un-mandatory, society will constantly get in an uproar, its inevitable.



Maybe we just need more clear science that its undisputable. Or maybe when there are religious foundations to reject vaccines, we need to be patient for religion to evolve to a point where it can change the position on vaccines.

Its kinda like other issues which took a long time to get a general consensus. Like all sorts of equality rights in the world. Maybe sometimes science runs to far ahead of the pack, making it having to wait for the general public to catch up and accept the new premises. In a way it always does that ofcourse, but sometimes a new discovery or breakthrough is a bigger footstep away then another one.


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## aliscka (Feb 7, 2015)

If a child dies or becomes seriously ill from a sickness because the parents did not get their children vaccinated through their own choice, then they deserve to have their children taken away. They have proven themselves unfit to competently care for another human being.


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## Brackets (Feb 8, 2015)

Murray said:


> Your seatbelt analogy isn't legit. Since not vaccinating your children isn't illegal, you could only compare it against something that is also legal, whereas since not wearing your seatbelt is already illegal. Therefore your analogy is illogical because it relies on the belief that vaccinations should be mandatory to be true (which is the core topic of the debate). Since your analogy tries to support that belief, it doesn't really work (think the bible is true because it says so in the bible sort of situation).
> 
> However I have to agree with you in a way, because I believe it is the responsibility of the state to protect its people, in this case, from each other. But I think that the idea of the parents losing responsibility of their children to the state comes close to crossing the line of children being raised by the government. Should parents be punished for messing up (when not breaking the law)? I think not. Should vaccines be mandatory? Perhaps so.



Yes well that's what I'm kindof saying - not vaccinating your children is endangering their health, like not wearing a seatbelt, so it should ideally be illegal too. I think I worded it quite badly though, to be fair. And when I say lose responsibility, I just mean over that decision, not the whole responsibility for the child. It's not like they'd be taken away.

But anyway it's all kindof a moot point because really if it's made mandatory then there'd be a huge backlash and things would probably become worse than they already are. Our best bet is probably trying to educate the public and stop giving people like Jenny McCarthy a platform to voice their ridiculous opinions.


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## KarlaKGB (Feb 8, 2015)

Brackets said:


> Yes well that's what I'm kindof saying - not vaccinating your children is endangering their health, like not wearing a seatbelt, so it should ideally be illegal too. I think I worded it quite badly though, to be fair. And when I say lose responsibility, I just mean over that decision, not the whole responsibility for the child. It's not like they'd be taken away.
> 
> But anyway it's all kindof a moot point because really if it's made mandatory then there'd be a huge backlash and things would probably become worse than they already are. Our best bet is probably trying to educate the public and stop giving people like Jenny McCarthy a platform to voice their ridiculous opinions.



ppl on tbt need to be vaccinated against rabies bcuz of u


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## Brackets (Feb 8, 2015)

KarlaKGB said:


> ppl on tbt need to be vaccinated against rabies bcuz of u



oi, i only bark, i don't bite... yet


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## Stalfos (Feb 8, 2015)

Too bad so many of the people on this thread are unfit and/or unable to have a constructive debate, because this subject is something that really needs to get some attention.

And please stop with the *"PANDEMONIUM! MURDERERS! EVERYONE DIES!"*-crap.
Thank you.


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## Brackets (Feb 8, 2015)

Stalfos said:


> And please stop with the *"PANDEMONIUM! MURDERERS! EVERYONE DIES!"*-crap.
> Thank you.



... is anyone saying that? !


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## tobi! (Feb 8, 2015)

PANDEMONIUM! MURDERERS! EVERYONE DIES!


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## Stalfos (Feb 8, 2015)

Brackets said:


> ... is anyone saying that? !



I was paraphrasing. Surely you can see that? There has been numerous of people here calling people murderers for not vaccinating their kids. That is not debating.

Edit: Love your new avatar. I prefer Agaetis Byrjun, though. 



Norski said:


> PANDEMONIUM! MURDERERS! EVERYONE DIES!



Lol, though.


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## Brackets (Feb 8, 2015)

Stalfos said:


> I was paraphrasing. Surely you can see that? There has been numerous of people here calling people murderers for not vaccinating their kids. That is not debating.
> 
> Edit: Love your new avatar. I prefer Agaetis Byrjun, though.



yeah ahha I know, but I didn't think many people were going on about that, and to be honest i think the debate here has been quite good (for a thread on TBT anyway )
ahh thank you :') i love agaetis byrjun! would be a bit of a mouthful for a username though haha


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## Dork (Feb 8, 2015)

honestly anti-vaxxers need to stay 230456 feet away from me


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## Leela (Feb 8, 2015)

I don't really see why anyone would not want to be vaccinated. Not only does not being vaccinated put your own health at risk, but it makes other people more likely to get diseases. Some people can't receive vaccinations for a number of reasons, such as people who are too young, too ill, or people with problems with their immune systems. If everyone who is able to have vaccinations chooses to have their injections, herd immunity is more likely to protect the people unable to have vaccinations who may wish to protect themselves but can't. Apologies if this has already been said, I haven't read through the whole thread.


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## Brackets (Feb 8, 2015)

hey i found a really good website about how vaccines cause autism

http://howdovaccinescauseautism.com


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## aliscka (Feb 8, 2015)

Brackets said:


> hey i found a really good website about how vaccines cause autism
> 
> http://howdovaccinescauseautism.com



^that's the best


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## Leela (Feb 8, 2015)

Brackets said:


> hey i found a really good website about how vaccines cause autism
> 
> http://howdovaccinescauseautism.com



This page is perfection. May this website enlighten all who discover it.


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## jobby47 (Feb 8, 2015)

The measles vaccine should totally be mandatory.


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## Alyssa (Feb 8, 2015)

I think vaccinations should be compulsory, but there could also be improvements to the system that could help to prevent them from causing other things like autism (if that's even the case). I know my cousin started having symptoms of autism within 24 hours of a vaccination (not sure which one it was), and a friend of mine's brother had the same thing happen. But no link between autism and vaccinations has been discovered yet, so I'm not sure. I mean honestly though, I'd rather risk having autism than risk being infected and infecting others with polio or something.


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## oath2order (Feb 8, 2015)

I got a bit of a giggle.


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## infinikitten (Feb 8, 2015)

Dork said:


> honestly anti-vaxxers need to stay 230456 feet away from me



Another post that made me smile!

I'm not really participating in this thread so much as checking in on it out of curiosity every so often, but yeah. Anti-vaxxers make my skin crawl, and I'm not willing to engage in debate with people who just cry "BUT THEY CAUSE AUTISM!" (despite that being disproven, and also, wow way to be a jerk about autism), there's no point, so I never bother. Hopefully there's none of that going on in this thread but w/e.

My public schools, as I was growing up, always required us to be vaccinated before we were allowed in the building around other kids and I'm really happy with that policy, honestly. I would rather get a damn shot than actively be a danger to the rest of society. My immune system is already crap as it is, and I've got family members with compromised immune systems (disorders, or as a side effects of certain meds, etc) so I get to see first-hand what anti-vaxxers' mindsets can do. It's not a hypothetical situation for me, or one I can sit and detachedly debate about. Either you're a threat to our health or you aren't. It's black and white to me because my survival and that of a lot of my loved ones rides on stuff like this.


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## Caius (Feb 9, 2015)

Due to an issue between my mom and dad splitting up when I was younger I was vaccinated twice (mom didn't get my records) and even if I have loads of medical issues it's not due to being vaccinated at all. 

I've never had measles, chicken pox, smallpox, teatenus (Sp?), rabies, polio, typhoid, or malaria. I'd consider that a blessing in and of itself. I have had whooping cough despite being vaccinated but the chances were so astronomically small that was my own fault. 

The argument that vaccines cause autism honestly blows my mind. The charts definitely show an increase in _diagnosed_ autism over the last 20 years, but that's just it.. _diagnosed._ Most countries didn't have such easy standards for diagnosing it before, nor did we have this many people on the planet 20 years ago. The charts also show an increase in vehicle purchases, homelessness, poverty, and organic food sales but I'm fairly sure none of those are being linked to autism right now (even though it's about the same amount of evidence.) 

Hypothetically lets _say_ vaccines _did_ have something to do with the rise in diagnosed autistic patients. (This is going way far off the deep end, so far we're in space right now) If I had the choice between my child being the carrier of a disease that was responsible for eliminating _thousands of lives_ at some point, or having a mental difference that makes him or her perceive the world _differently_ from everyone else (Not like that's a bad thing IMO) then I would definitely get that kid their shots. 

Humans have a pack mentality. Every one of the pack does something *for* the pack. If there is any chance that one death could save hundreds of thousands of lives, you bet we would do it. Humans are also susceptible to martyr-ism. We usually feel pride making that kind of sacrifice. Not each and every one of us individually, but you get it. Knowing what I know, if it was proven that vaccines caused autism and I had the choice to do it _myself_ (taking out the hypothetical child) then I would _still get vaccinated._ I would do it for the people around me, not myself.


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## KarlaKGB (Feb 9, 2015)

guys maybe getting polio is the hipster thing to do, since nobody has it


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## Caius (Feb 9, 2015)

I'll pass on that.


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## infinikitten (Feb 9, 2015)

ZR388 said:


> The argument that vaccines cause autism honestly blows my mind. The charts definitely show an increase in _diagnosed_ autism over the last 20 years, but that's just it.. _diagnosed._ Most countries didn't have such easy standards for diagnosing it before, nor did we have this many people on the planet 20 years ago. The charts also show an increase in vehicle purchases, homelessness, poverty, and organic food sales but I'm fairly sure none of those are being linked to autism right now (even though it's about the same amount of evidence.)



The interesting thing is that the "link" between autism and vaccines was actually due to a falsified report by some hack doctor and several others who wanted to cash in on this; he wrote an article that was (and still is, despite the fact that we now know he was flat out lying when he wrote it) cited by a lot of anti-vaxxers as "proof" that vaccines somehow cause autism. Buuut:



> Wakefield altered numerous facts about the patients’ medical histories in order to support his claim to have identified a new syndrome; how his institution, the Royal Free Hospital and Medical School in London, supported him as he sought to exploit the ensuing MMR scare for financial gain[...]



The entire piece discussing his fraudulent article is here in case anybody would like to read more about it.


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## nintendofan85 (Feb 9, 2015)

I support vaccines.


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## Caius (Feb 9, 2015)

infinikitten said:


> The interesting thing is that the "link" between autism and vaccines was actually due to a falsified report by some hack doctor and several others who wanted to cash in on this; he wrote an article that was (and still is, despite the fact that we now know he was flat out lying when he wrote it) cited by a lot of anti-vaxxers as "proof" that vaccines somehow cause autism. Buuut:
> 
> 
> 
> The entire piece discussing his fraudulent article is here in case anybody would like to read more about it.



I'm aware of the falsified report. I more meant it blows my mind that people believe it when it's been spelled out "it was false."


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## Brackets (Feb 9, 2015)

One of the most annoying arguments against vaccines are the people saying that there's 'toxins' in them, like aluminium and mercury. Uhm, aluminium is the 3rd most abundant element on this planet. It's in breast milk, water, vegetables, pretty much anything. The mercury (thiomersal) is at nowhere NEAR the amounts needed to be toxic to a baby. It's ridiculous, the people arguing against vaccines basically ignore facts.

Also, the whole 'overloading your immune system' things is total rubbish too - the millions of LIVE bacteria that babies are exposed to every day is arguably more taxing for their immune system. Our immune systems protect us every day from threats and make antibodies all the time; a few dead or inactivated viruses are not going to overwhelm them.


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## KarlaKGB (Feb 9, 2015)

thimerosal is very commonly used as a preservative in substances designed for in vivo applications. safely.

and yes, the hygiene hypothesis is legit. children shud have their faces rubbed in mud.


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## Aryxia (Feb 9, 2015)

Brackets said:


> One of the most annoying arguments against vaccines are the people saying that there's 'toxins' in them, like aluminium and mercury. Uhm, aluminium is the 3rd most abundant element on this planet. It's in breast milk, water, vegetables, pretty much anything. The mercury (thiomersal) is at nowhere NEAR the amounts needed to be toxic to a baby. It's ridiculous, the people arguing against vaccines basically ignore facts.
> 
> Also, the whole 'overloading your immune system' things is total rubbish too - the millions of LIVE bacteria that babies are exposed to every day is arguably more taxing for their immune system. Our immune systems protect us every day from threats and make antibodies all the time; a few dead or inactivated viruses are not going to overwhelm them.




Some people are just incapable of doing proper research. Just let natural selection run its course c:


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## Brackets (Feb 10, 2015)

Aryxia said:


> Some people are just incapable of doing proper research. Just let natural selection run its course c:



Unfortunately that 'natural selection' endangers us too


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## Tao (Feb 10, 2015)

u no ur 90s kid wen nobodi u no had mesals cuz wi al had ower injecshuns

lik n shar if u agre


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## Sporge27 (Feb 10, 2015)

>_> 
I get it that some parents worry it could cause autism in their child... but even if it did, not getting the vaccines could get your child dead, and potentially endanger those around them.  

I mean if measles were to mutate in a way that gets around what the vaccine does, that could become a massively spread thing.

If you ask me the people who started it are either incredibly dumb, or incredibly smart and terribly evil.  (whether it is they just wanted more money/fame, or actually want stupid people/lower class to kill themselves off.


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## Tao (Feb 10, 2015)

Sporge27 said:


> >_>
> I get it that some parents worry it could cause autism in their child... but even if it did, not getting the vaccines could get your child dead, and potentially endanger those around them.




Indeed.


As far as I'm aware, if the myth that vaccines cause autism (and other well know legends) do somehow turn out to be true, then the chance that your child is going to become autistic because of it is much MUCH lower than the chance of them dying of something because you didn't want to get them vaccinated.

It's sort of like they're being told "the vaccine has a 1% chance of giving your child autism...But a 40% chance they'll get seriously ill and/or die if they don't have it", but they're opting not to have the vaccine because being dead is better than life with autism. 

In my opinion, I would rather take that 1% chance of becoming autistic than the 40% chance that I'm going to die without the vaccine in the first place. Having autism sounds a lot better than rotting in the ground...




The percentages I used are obviously made up (as are the autism claims and studies) and everything I said is metaphorical and based around loose "what ifs" (as are the autism claims and studies)...But it's essentially what people *are* saying and doing.


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## Brackets (Feb 11, 2015)

Sporge27 said:


> If you ask me the people who started it are either incredibly dumb, or incredibly smart and terribly evil.  (whether it is they just wanted more money/fame, or actually want stupid people/*lower class* to kill themselves off.



actually it's more of a middle class thing. Generally it's the well-educated mums who sit at home all day and do 'research' on google, think they're really clever and therefore think they know better than doctors.


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## Nyxia (Feb 11, 2015)

I'm yet to meet someone who doesn't think their children will benefit from vaccines.  Thank goodness.  Up until now I thought it was common sense to get your children vaccinated.. Clearly that is cumulatively lacking.


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## TheGreatBrain (Feb 11, 2015)

I'm a childcare provider, and i'm seeing more and more children whose parents are against vaccinations.These same people are also against using sunscreen. I have been doing childcare for 20 years, and have never let a child get sunburned. It's getting harder to protect their skin when parents would rather them get burned then put on sunscreen.


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## Murray (Feb 11, 2015)

TheGreatBrain said:


> I'm a childcare provider, and i'm seeing more and more children whose parents are against vaccinations.These same people are also against using sunscreen. I have been doing childcare for 20 years, and have never let a child get sunburned. It's getting harder to protect their skin when parents would rather them get burned then put on sunscreen.



god bless u for fighting the evil


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## KarlaKGB (Feb 11, 2015)

Tao said:


> Indeed.
> 
> 
> As far as I'm aware, if the myth that vaccines cause autism (and other well know legends) do somehow turn out to be true, then the chance that your child is going to become autistic because of it is much MUCH lower than the chance of them dying of something because you didn't want to get them vaccinated.
> ...



thats cuz there r more autists than ppl with measles, therefore autism is more of a problem so why bother vaccinating against measles

at least thats the potato logic thats going around


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