# Are you a feminist?



## marinamarina (May 9, 2016)

Wondering, keep it civil though.


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## visibleghost (May 9, 2016)

short answer: yes

long answer: yeeeeeeeeeeees

ask 4 Super Long Answer


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## Mega_Cabbage (May 9, 2016)

Nope. I don't really have a problem with being female currently.


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## Bowie (May 9, 2016)

I prefer the term "equalist".


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## Ichigo. (May 9, 2016)

yes yes yes. I don't even want to explain why anymore.


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## marinamarina (May 9, 2016)

Mega_Cabbage said:


> Nope. I don't really have a problem with being female currently.



You're lucky haha.


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## visibleghost (May 9, 2016)

mega and bowie: do u know what "feminist" means?


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## Ichigo. (May 9, 2016)

Mega_Cabbage said:


> Nope. I don't really have a problem with being female currently.



not trying to be antagonistic but are you saying you'd only be a feminist if it benefited you personally? bc I'm pretty sure lots of other women face troubles due to their sex.


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## Xerolin (May 9, 2016)

No


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## visibleghost (May 9, 2016)

Xerolin said:


> No



pls explain


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## Mega_Cabbage (May 9, 2016)

lencurryboy said:


> mega and bowie: do u know what "feminist" means?



Doesn't it mean equal rights/opportunities for females? If so, I'm still fine with the way I live. People are always going to find a way to differentiate. I'm not actively doing anything about it (aka being a feminist), so I wouldn't complain. I would also rather not be drafted into the military against my will.


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## Fleshy (May 9, 2016)

Yes.

& misandry isn't feminism.


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## mogyay (May 9, 2016)

100% i consider myself a feminist


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## Mega_Cabbage (May 9, 2016)

aleonhart said:


> not trying to be antagonistic but are you saying you'd only be a feminist if it benefited you personally? bc I'm pretty sure lots of other women face troubles due to their sex.



No, I would only be a feminist if I contributed to solving the problem females are facing. I'm just sitting on my butt amusing myself with the Internet though.


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## seliph (May 9, 2016)

While I agree and support feminism as an idea I'd rather not call myself one because TERFs and SWERFs exist and the most popular form of feminism is white feminism.

So like yeah but also no.


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## Xerolin (May 9, 2016)

lencurryboy said:


> pls explain



I'm just not, I respect all genders' rights and don't argue with anyone or talk about woman's rights.


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## Miii (May 9, 2016)

Nope. I'm an Egalitarian, meaning I think everyone should have equal rights, regardless of gender.


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## DarkDesertFox (May 9, 2016)

I'm all for women's rights, but I don't identify as a feminist because quite frankly I've seen some negative representation of the term.


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## debinoresu (May 9, 2016)

yea. imo people who say "No, but i am an Egalitarian" dont even know what feminism is. if youre pro-equal rights you sorta default into feminism, regardless of if you wanna call yourself one or not. im not really ashamed of the word despite its bad rep

edit** i think ill add some more clarification, feminism is not only womens rights, it applies to all genders bc the same stuf that negatively effects women negatively effects men. i;e, women are so weak they cry all the time, but men are too strong to cry. to get rid of the stereotype crying is a woman thing gets rid of the stereotype that men cant/shouldnt cry. feminism is basically gender equality, but people tend to misinterpret it as "Women Superiority" or something.


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## ellarella (May 9, 2016)

yeah i am


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## Fleshy (May 9, 2016)

nvll said:


> While I agree and support feminism as an idea I'd rather not call myself one because TERFs and SWERFs exist and the most popular form of feminism is white feminism.
> 
> So like yeah but also no.



I agree. 
I agree with feminism as it is defined but I really don't like to be associated with terfs or white feminism, it's terrible that those types of "feminism" are so popular.


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## seliph (May 9, 2016)

debinoresu said:


> yea. imo people who say "No, but i am an Egalitarian" dont even know what feminism is. if youre pro-equal rights you sorta default into feminism, regardless of if you wanna call yourself one or not. im not really ashamed of the word despite its bad rep



Yeah like tbh I would support egalitarianism because the idea behind it is great (even though it has the same basis as feminism anyways l o l) but all of them just seem to be confused people who don't know what feminism is and act like feminism means "someone who only supports women"

And so whenever I see "egalitarian" in someone's tumblr sidebar I'm like oh boy here we go lads


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## Alienfish (May 9, 2016)

Yeah. I'd like to say how can you not be? (aside from some radical movements but I'm not gonna flame war the threads with those)


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## boujee (May 9, 2016)

Yeah, I'm in for the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes regardless of skin color. 
I just dislike how some idiots sorta *** up the meaning of being one. So when I say oh I'm a feminist, I get that look cause I know they're thinking of the type who're like "Kill all men, Trans men aren't real men, or some hypocritical sht of not having video game characters be sexual but will go around and be like if a man can do it I can do it too or free the nipple" type deal.

I'm all for the game but not the name.


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## Mega_Cabbage (May 9, 2016)

nvll said:


> Yeah like tbh I would support egalitarianism because the idea behind it is great (even though it has the same basis as feminism anyways l o l) but all of them just seem to be confused people who don't know what feminism is and act like feminism means "someone who only supports women"
> 
> And so whenever I see "egalitarian" in someone's tumblr sidebar I'm like oh boy here we go lads



I guess. Google only mentions women's rights when you type in "feminism," so maybe that's why?

fem?i?nism
ˈfeməˌnizəm/Submit
noun
the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.
synonyms:	the women's movement, the feminist


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## ShinyYoshi (May 9, 2016)

Of course. Feminism is to bring equality to all genders and it's also to help men, not just women. 

Sure, there are plenty of bad feminists, but I honestly don't consider SJWs and those types feminists because they aren't trying to spread real feminism. If men can't also benefit from it, it's not feminism. And I also won't let a couple of bad apples keep me from standing up for what is right and I won't let them ruin feminism for me because I think it's very important for women and men from all over.


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## Miii (May 9, 2016)

debinoresu said:


> yea. imo people who say "No, but i am an Egalitarian" dont even know what feminism is. if youre pro-equal rights you sorta default into feminism, regardless of if you wanna call yourself one or not. im not really ashamed of the word despite its bad rep
> 
> edit** i think ill add some more clarification, feminism is not only womens rights, it applies to all genders bc the same stuf that negatively effects women negatively effects men. i;e, women are so weak they cry all the time, but men are too strong to cry. to get rid of the stereotype crying is a woman thing gets rid of the stereotype that men cant/shouldnt cry. feminism is basically gender equality, but people tend to misinterpret it as "Women Superiority" or something.



Feminism is _not_ the same thing as Egalitarianism. Feminism focuses on giving women more rights, hence the name feminism. Egalitarianism focuses on giving everyone equal rights regardless of race, gender, religion, nationality, political affiliations etc. Before someone jumps down my throat, I'm not knocking feminism. It can be a great, and life changing thing in places where women have little or no rights. However, it has it's own clear definition and shouldn't be lumped into the same category as Egalitarianism.


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## seliph (May 9, 2016)

Mega_Cabbage said:


> I guess. Google only mentions women's rights when you type in "feminism," so maybe that's why?
> 
> fem?i?nism
> ˈfeməˌnizəm/Submit
> ...



Eh maybe, and considering the way some "feminists" act I don't really blame people for thinking that way but when you have hundreds of feminists telling you "But we're for equality for everyone" you gotta realize that it is indeed part of the movement.

That being said there's so many different types of feminism and several are very exclusive so while I understand not wanting to use the label I don't understand being "anti-feminism" or not being one "because you believe in equality".


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## Celestefey (May 9, 2016)

I want to call myself a feminist but I don't like the negative connotations of the word anymore, and I don't like a lot of what modern day feminism stands for. Not saying women in first world countries aren't victims of sexism because it most definitely still is happening but not to the extent in third world countries, which I feel modern feminism tends to turn a blind eye to nowadays. 

So I suppose I am but I just don't feel like the way it is represented nowadays is what it really is. It feels like its meaning has devolved into something more nasty. People tend to take it as a joke. I advocate for equal rights (And I'm not gonna call myself an equalist instead of a feminist lmao) for all genders as I'm sure do a vast majority of people, it's just unfortunate that a small minority have ruined the name of feminism, and it's even worse now that people treat it as a joke. I just don't want to be associated with it.


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## Aniko (May 9, 2016)

Of course I am, and as people already said it doesn't mean to feel superior to anybody but equal, which also mean stop depending on men and think they are just there to protect, or they should be this or that because they are men. 

Not sure of what is "white feminist", most of African and Asians feminists I know just want the same as the others, but it's true that it's not all women who want the same thing  or agree on the same things.


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## Xerolin (May 9, 2016)

keep it civil m8s


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## seliph (May 9, 2016)

Miii said:


> Feminism is _not_ the same thing as Egalitarianism. Feminism focuses on giving women more rights, hence the name feminism. Egalitarianism focuses on giving everyone equal rights regardless of race, gender, religion, nationality, political affiliations etc. Before someone jumps down my throat, I'm not knocking feminism. It can be a great, and life changing thing in places where women have little or no rights. However, it has it's own clear definition and shouldn't be lumped into the same category as Egalitarianism.



Feminism as a movement doesn't revolve solely on its name or dictionary definition. You have to look at what people are actually doing. (Good) feminists are actively helping LGBT+ people, people of colour as well as people of different religions. Some women-helping organizations will even let homeless men stay with them despite them being men.

I haven't seen an "egalitarian movement" do anything but make posts about how "bad" and "anti-equlity" feminism is.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Aniko said:


> Of course I am, and as people already said it doesn't mean to feel superior to anybody but equal, which also mean stop depending on men and think they are just there to protect, or they should be this or that because they are men.
> 
> Not sure of what is "white feminist", most of African and Asians feminists I know just want the same as the others, but it's true that it's not all women who want the same thing  or agree on the same things.



White feminism is white women saying they're feminists and equality for all women yadda yadda and then turning a blind eye to the issues WoC face.


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## Celestefey (May 9, 2016)

nvll said:


> Feminism as a movement doesn't revolve solely on its name or dictionary definition. You have to look at what people are actually doing. (Good) feminists are actively helping LGBT+ people, people of colour as well as people of different religions. Some women-helping organizations will even let homeless men stay with them despite them being men.
> 
> I haven't seen an "egalitarian movement" do anything but make posts about how "bad" and "anti-equlity" feminism is.



lmao where is the lie

I swear only edgy 15 year olds on the internet proudly proclaim they are pro-egalitarian and share those ****ty Facebook posts on social media.

Besides the word egalitarian would imply that's more of "equality for all" rather than feminism which is specifically focusing on equality between genders. So really egalitarians shouldn't just focus on attacking feminists (which like I said before, I know a lot of modern day feminism can be garbage but a lot of it still vastly working on equality).


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## Bowie (May 9, 2016)

lencurryboy said:


> mega and bowie: do u know what "feminist" means?



I feel like feminism is more about female rights than equal rights. Look up feminism on the Internet and 90% of the results centre around women. That's maybe not what it's supposed to be, but it's what it is, inevitably. So, as way for me to clearly say that I'm a supporter of equal rights, I just call myself an equalist. I'm not a big fan of labels anyway, though.


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## seliph (May 9, 2016)

Celestefey said:


> lmao where is the lie
> 
> I swear only edgy 15 year olds on the internet proudly proclaim they are pro-egalitarian and share those ****ty Facebook posts on social media.
> 
> Besides the word egalitarian would imply that's more of "equality for all" rather than feminism which is specifically focusing on equality between genders. So really egalitarians shouldn't just focus on attacking feminists (which like I said before, I know a lot of modern day feminism can be garbage but a lot of it still vastly working on equality).



Whenever I see "Anti-Feminist. Pro-Equality" I can feel myself imploding.
The words and actions of others are way more important than a dictionary definition. It's hardly different than people who say something homophobic or transphobic and then go "Well I'm not ___phobic 'cause the dictionary says a phobia is a _fear_!"


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## Ashtot (May 9, 2016)

im an edgy feminist follow me on lifeoftranswhale.tumblr.com


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## marinamarina (May 9, 2016)

Celestefey said:


> lmao where is the lie
> 
> I swear only edgy 15 year olds on the internet proudly proclaim they are pro-egalitarian and share those ****ty Facebook posts on social media.
> 
> Besides the word egalitarian would imply that's more of "equality for all" rather than feminism which is specifically focusing on equality between genders. So really egalitarians shouldn't just focus on attacking feminists (which like I said before, I know a lot of modern day feminism can be garbage but a lot of it still vastly working on equality).



This this this. Can someone tell me what egalitarians have accomplished compared to feminists? (also egalitarians strike me as very ~all lives matter~ which ugh)I know that feminists can be problematic, but I'd rather continue to label myself that way and do my best to be an intersectional feminist, instead of separating myself and proving people's points about feminism being a bad movement nowadays.


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## chaicow (May 9, 2016)

I am indifferent towards feminism but sometimes, feminists can be really annoying. Feminism is about equality, not superiority.


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## N e s s (May 9, 2016)

Yes, i am a feminist.


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## Corrie (May 9, 2016)

I think men and women should be equal. Besides jobs, I literally can't think of what men have better than women. Women literally rule at this point.


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## marinamarina (May 9, 2016)

Corrie said:


> I think men and women should be equal. Besides jobs, I literally can't think of what men have better than women. Women literally rule at this point.



I mean, if you're looking at the world as a whole, there's still genital mutilation, sex trafficking, child brides, places where women can't drive but...


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## ok.sean (May 9, 2016)

I'm not a female but I still think it's wrong the way women are treated


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## seliph (May 9, 2016)

Corrie said:


> I think men and women should be equal. Besides jobs, I literally can't think of what men have better than women. Women literally rule at this point.



Aside from what marinamarina said femininity itself is still incredibly demonized as well, hence a boy in a skirt is so scoffed at and frowned upon for being "feminine" meanwhile masculine clothes are seen as "unisex" and no one cares if a girl wears idk a flannel and mens' pants.

Not to mention there are still people on this side of the world who think women can't be good higher-ups because they menstruate, and think they should be stay-at-home moms. On the other hand if a man is a stay-at-home dad while the mother makes the money he's frowned upon because he is in a "feminine" role.


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## marinamarina (May 9, 2016)

nvll said:


> Aside from what marinamarina said femininity itself is still incredibly demonized as well, hence a boy in a skirt is so scoffed at and frowned upon for being "feminine" meanwhile masculine clothes are seen as "unisex" and no one cares if a girl wears idk a flannel and mens' pants.
> 
> Not to mention there are still people on this side of the world who think women can't be good higher-ups because they menstruate, and think they should be stay-at-home moms. On the other hand if a man is a stay-at-home dad while the mother makes the money he's frowned upon because he is in a "feminine" role.



I feel like people don't realize how sexism against women affects men as well. I personally think men need feminism too for those reasons. Like how women are supposed to be over-emotional and men stoic.


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## seliph (May 9, 2016)

marinamarina said:


> I feel like people don't realize how sexism against women affects men as well. I personally think men need feminism too for those reasons. Like how women are supposed to be over-emotional and men stoic.



That too, like a man sheds one tear and suddenly he's not a man anymore, and god forbid he show any ounce of being stereotypically feminine. I know people like to make fun of fragile masculinity (myself included, like wtf @ those "Man Tissues" lmao) but at the same time it is an issue, and misogyny is at the root of it.


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## inkling (May 9, 2016)

ya, but im older (not super old), so I don't really know what it means to the younger generation? But in many careers I feel the glass ceiling exists. Like there's a double standard, so women have to work *harder then men to achieve the same things. But its something that we still need to do to crush stereotypes. Women also need to make sure and be aware ...like educate yourself, but still be yourself..don't change yourself for others.


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## f11 (May 9, 2016)

I'd call my self one but I can't because some feminists don't believe in intersectionality so ye.


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## 2007 (May 9, 2016)

yeah
i dont really understand how you couldnt be


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## marinamarina (May 9, 2016)

Crys said:


> I'd call my self one but I can't because some feminists don't believe in intersectionality so ye.



Prove them wrong! Being in a movement doesn't mean you have to agree w everyone in it.


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## Llust (May 9, 2016)

no. i dont have anything against equality, but i dont give two shts about it


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## zoetrope (May 9, 2016)

Maybe a lot of the people voting 'no' are equating feminism with militant people on Tumblr?

I answered yes.

- - - Post Merge - - -



stardusk said:


> no. i dont have anything against equality, but i dont give two shts about it



Just curious.  Are you female?


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## santoyo.bay (May 9, 2016)

Yup. Of course. What doesn't sound great about gender equality?


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## Twisterheart (May 9, 2016)

No, I don't consider myself one. I know it's really important, but I just don't really consider myself a feminist.


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## Llust (May 9, 2016)

zoetrope said:


> Maybe a lot of the people voting 'no' are equating feminism with militant people on Tumblr?
> 
> I answered yes.
> 
> ...



yes. may i ask why my gender is important? not trying to be rude, i'm just wondering


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## ZekkoXCX (May 9, 2016)

I see this in the future being closed... :v


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## Earth Wolf-Howl (May 9, 2016)

I am, yes. Don't take me to be one of those radicals that the internet likes to bash, though. I'm just someone who wants equality between genders.


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## meowlerrz (May 9, 2016)

Of course I am. Who in their right mind wouldn't want equality for men and women? 

I could write a whole lot more but I'll keep my answer short and sweet


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## zoetrope (May 9, 2016)

stardusk said:


> yes. may i ask why my gender is important? not trying to be rude, i'm just wondering



Have you ever been discriminated due to your gender?  Been passed over for a promotion?  Been paid less than a man?  Been excluded from a group or club?  Been harassed due to being female but are then told 'that's just how things are?'

Knowing your gender was really interesting because, normally, when someone says they don't care about problems like this it's because they aren't being effected.  But, whether you like it or not, you will almost certainly have one of the things I listed above happen to you at least once in your life.


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## Mints (May 9, 2016)

yes. and half of the ppl on this thread don't even know what a feminist actually is LOL


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## Fantasyrick (May 9, 2016)

I don't get these type of comments 
"How could you not be a feminist" I don't understand???


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## Mints (May 9, 2016)

Fantasyrick said:


> I don't get these type of comments
> "How could you not be a feminist" I don't understand???



A feminist is someone who supports equality for ALL races, genders, sexualities, etc. Not just for a woman's rights (which is what it is often mistaken for)


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## Llust (May 9, 2016)

zoetrope said:


> Have you ever been discriminated due to your gender?  Been passed over for a promotion?  Been paid less than a man?  Been excluded from a group or club?  Been harassed due to being female but are then told 'that's just how things are?'
> 
> Knowing your gender was really interesting because, normally, when someone says they don't care about problems like this it's because they aren't being effected.  But, whether you like it or not, you will almost certainly have one of the things I listed above happen to you at least once in your life.



i'd have to answer no for all of your questions. most if not all of those things have happened to me, but i don't mind. it's just how society is and i honestly couldn't care less about trying to change it. overall, i think it's great that people are recognizing equality/lgbta+, but most people i know take it a bit too far and i find it rather annoying. for example, there's debate i've been seeing among feminists at school and my co workers. according to them, it isn't fair that women aren't supposed to show their nipples, but men are.  they're saying it's unfair that we can't expose our nipples, but i find this discussion really stupid considering that's just the norm of society and it's like that for a reason. then again, i don't know much about feminism considering i never got myself involved, so it's not my place to judge.


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## seliph (May 9, 2016)

Mints said:


> A feminist is someone who supports equality for ALL races, genders, sexualities, etc. Not just for a woman's rights (which is what it is often mistaken for)



Idk if you're referring to using the title or having the same ideals but the issues within feminism that everyone has pointed out make a very good reason as to why many people don't want to call themselves a feminist.



stardusk said:


> but i find this discussion really stupid considering that's just the norm of society and it's like that for a reason



It's there because of degrading sexualization against women lol not everything has a great reason behind it.


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## marinamarina (May 9, 2016)

nvll said:


> Idk if you're referring to using the title or having the same ideals but the issues within feminism that everyone has pointed out make a very good reason as to why many people don't want to call themselves a feminist.
> 
> 
> 
> It's there because of degrading sexualization against women lol not everything has a great reason behind it.



Yeah seriously, is there that good of a reason for considering a body part inappropriate thats purpose is literally FEEDING BABIES (cant get more vulgar than that!)


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## meowlerrz (May 9, 2016)

stardusk said:


> i'd have to answer no for all of your questions. most if not all of those things have happened to me, but i don't mind. it's just how society is and i honestly couldn't care less about trying to change it.



You may not mind those things happening to you but what about an innocent little girl experiencing those things, or how about we stray from feminism just affecting girls and focus on boys being taught that they have to be manly or assertive, otherwise they're not a real man. Boys are criticized for getting the least bit emotional and they're taught that being called a girl is the worst insult. Are you saying that you're perfectly fine with a little girl, lets say 5 years old(too young to be sexualized by anyone) getting sent home for wearing a dress because too much of her shoulders are showing. All because this is how society is and we just need to accept it?


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## seliph (May 9, 2016)

marinamarina said:


> Yeah seriously, is there that good of a reason for considering a body part inappropriate thats purpose is literally FEEDING BABIES (cant get more vulgar than that!)



Yeah I don't see how women being thrown out of malls and coffee shops for feeding their baby is an "acceptable societal norm", especially considering the baby is usually under a wrap or a poncho.

Straight dudes are so obsessed with **** but when they're actually being used for a good purpose they yell and ask for a manager like please what do yall want!


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## marinamarina (May 9, 2016)

nvll said:


> Yeah I don't see how women being thrown out of malls and coffee shops for feeding their baby is an "acceptable societal norm", especially considering the baby is usually under a wrap or a poncho.
> 
> Straight dudes are so obsessed with **** but when they're actually being used for a good purpose they yell and ask for a manager like please what do yall want!



I love America cause women can't get maternity leave, but then they can't pump milk or breastfeed in a lot of places. Also some people def act like boobs exist purely for aesthetics ugh.


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## Llust (May 9, 2016)

meowlerrz said:


> You may not mind those things happening to you but what about an innocent little girl experiencing those things, or how about we stray from feminism just affecting girls and focus on boys being taught that they have to be manly or assertive, otherwise they're not a real man. Boys are criticized for getting the least bit emotional and they're taught that being called a girl is the worst insult. Are you saying that you're perfectly fine with a little girl, lets say 5 years old(too young to be sexualized by anyone) getting sent home for wearing a dress because too much of her shoulders are showing. All because this is how society is and we just need to accept it?



so i'm getting bashed on simply for expressing an opinion of mine that opposes everyone elses? i respect your opinions, but you're missing my point. i dont care if those things happen to me personally, but that doesn't mean i don't have sympathy for those who do. that being societys norm is just how i see it, i'm not stopping anyone from taking action to change it and i have more important things to worry about. as for the breasts, when did i say it was wrong for women to breast feed in public? i don't have anything against that


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## seliph (May 9, 2016)

stardusk said:


> so i'm getting bashed on simply for expressing an opinion of mine that opposes everyone elses? i respect your opinions, but you're missing my point. i dont care if those things happen to me personally, but that doesn't mean i don't have sympathy for those who do. that being societys norm is just how i see it, i'm not stopping anyone from taking action to change it and i have more important things to worry about. as for the breasts, when did i say it was wrong for women to breast feed in public? i don't have anything against that



Disagreeing and bashing are not synonymous.

Regarding the nipple thing again, we're saying womens' nipples actually serve a purpose and therefore it makes zero sense for those to be unacceptable in public when mens' are.


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## meowlerrz (May 9, 2016)

stardusk said:


> so i'm getting bashed on simply for expressing an opinion of mine that opposes everyone elses? i respect your opinions, but you're missing my point. i dont care if those things happen to me personally, but that doesn't mean i don't have sympathy for those who do. that being societys norm is just how i see it, i'm not stopping anyone from taking action to change it and i have more important things to worry about. as for the breasts, when did i say it was wrong for women to breast feed in public? i don't have anything against that



No one's bashing you I'm just trying to see where exactly it is you're coming from. That's why I asked if that was what you were saying. I don't mind people's choices not to get involved in acts and whatnot. I mean I'm not out there protesting and stuff obviously we have things to do with our lives. But saying you're a feminist has no commitment to it, it's just an idea that you someone can choose to agree to or not. You're a feminist if you agree that there should be equality, that's all. No one's asking people to wear feminist T-shirts everywhere or shout it to the sky in a crowded area. You don't have to worry about anything that's going on but when someone asks you if you're a feminist I believe all they want to know is a yes or no answer to the definition of feminism.


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## Fantasyrick (May 9, 2016)

Wow y'all are just shoving this down people's throats pls stop before you make someone choke.


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## seliph (May 9, 2016)

Fantasyrick said:


> Wow y'all are just shoving this down people's throats pls stop before you make someone choke.



This just in: Presenting someone with an opposing opinion and new information is "shoving it down people's throats". More at 11.


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## marinamarina (May 9, 2016)

nvll said:


> This just in: Presenting someone with an opposing opinion and new information is "shoving it down people's throats". More at 11.



For real, why can't people have a discussion without ppl shutting down?


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## seliph (May 9, 2016)

marinamarina said:


> For real, why can't people have a discussion without ppl shutting down?



I won't lie I admittedly act or sometimes even become irrationally vicious when I shouldn't at times, but I don't see anyone including myself getting upset or being pushy at all in this thread. It's just people agreeing, disagreeing, and discussing, and somehow threads like this always draw the "yikes keep it civil" and "this thread is gonna get closed"-esque comments.


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## Shina (May 9, 2016)

Let's keep it civil here hahahaah. 
a mod is viewing this thread as we speak


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## seliph (May 9, 2016)

Shina said:


> Let's keep it civil here hahahaah.
> a mod is viewing this thread as we speak



You stop that or it's bout ta be a civil war m8 meet me behind the Caf? in 10


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## Shina (May 9, 2016)

nvll said:


> You stop that or it's bout ta be a civil war m8 meet me behind the Caf? in 10


but my bed time is 9...

- - - Post Merge - - -

jk adults don't have bedtimes


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## Oblivia (May 9, 2016)

As with all threads containing more sensitive topics, I don't mind leaving them open so long as people can keep things civil and refrain from hurling personal attacks or insulting people who hold opposing viewpoints.  Just keep it calm and we'll be fine.

Also, keep in mind that posts saying things like "inb4 thread closure" or insulting the thread topic don't serve any purpose whatsoever.  If you think a thread should be looked into, report it.  Super easy.


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## Aronthaer (May 9, 2016)

Short answer: yes.

Long Answer: I prefer "equality" over feminism, as feminism sounds more female-centered and doesn't seem like it's focused on true equality. I also believe that although we should both be treated fairly, there are certain things that should remain the job of men (I firmly believe in the military being for men, if you want me to explain why just ask) and some thing that should remain the job of women. We aren't the same, and we shouldn't be treated exactly the same, but I do believe that women should be treated with honor, not objectified as much as they are today.


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## vel (May 9, 2016)

Yes, I'm a feminist. I don't completely understand the term equalist? Society has placed men above women, so when people say to equalize does that mean to bring men down to such level? Men are earning one dollar while women are earning 0.75. In my honest opinion, men do not need to be equalized. They already have rights and power, so it's the women that need to be. Don't get me wrong; I believe the women and men in other less fortunate countries should be equal as well. But in America, where I live, men have more power than any female. Female are seen as objects, and honestly don't earn as much as they should. Men do have problems, yes, but that is not the point. I am also a supporter of #blacklivesmatter. Many people have counter argued this, saying "Black lives need not matter, all lives should matter!" Racism still exists. Most people do not hire or acknowledge people of black skin, so many of them are quite poor and have to work themselves to get by. In this world, if you're poor, you mean nothing to the general public. Sure, some people have kind hearts but that does not make up for the billions of ignorant fools. Again, if you are poor, you are generally less important than someone who is rich. Why do you think rich people are judged so easily in court? All lives do matter, but black lives are the things that we should focus on right now. On the topic of feminism, the whole #freekesha thing is also supporting the equality of women.

I am a feminist. I believe in equal women rights. That does not make men less important, but men certainly do not need the attention women deserve at this moment. I do not want to have my children grow up in this world earning less the harder they work. Being one thing does not mean you cannot support another. I also support black lives, and etc. Honestly, I do not believe you cannot be an equalist and a feminist. However, I enjoy the term feminist much more.


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## seliph (May 9, 2016)

Aronthaer said:


> there are certain things that should remain the job of men (I firmly believe in the military being for men, if you want me to explain why just ask) and some thing that should remain the job of women. We aren't the same, and we shouldn't be treated exactly the same



Can you elaborate on all of this


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## N e s s (May 9, 2016)

Aronthaer said:


> there are certain things that should remain the job of men (I firmly believe in the military being for men, if you want me to explain why just ask) and some thing that should remain the job of women. We aren't the same, and we shouldn't be treated exactly the same, but I do believe that women should be treated with honor, not objectified as much as they are today.



ahahahahhahahahahahahahhahah you even said in that whole paragraph "We should both be treated fairly" and "Women should be treated with honor" but lmao you say we shouldn't be treated the same


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## That Zephyr Guy (May 9, 2016)

"Women should be treated with honor"


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## seliph (May 9, 2016)

N e s s said:


> ahahahahhahahahahahahahhahah you even said in that whole paragraph "We should both be treated fairly" and "Women should be treated with honor" but lmao you say we shouldn't be treated the same



I think he just meant in comparison to how crappily they're treated today but I am also confused as to how you can say "People should be treated fairly" and then "Some jobs are for x group, and some jobs are for y group" in the same post.


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## vel (May 9, 2016)

Aronthaer said:


> Short answer: yes.
> 
> Long Answer: I prefer "equality" over feminism, as feminism sounds more female-centered and doesn't seem like it's focused on true equality. I also believe that although we should both be treated fairly, there are certain things that should remain the job of men (I firmly believe in the military being for men, if you want me to explain why just ask) and some thing that should remain the job of women. We aren't the same, and we shouldn't be treated exactly the same, but I do believe that women should be treated with honor, not objectified as much as they are today.



I am confused as well. I believe women can hold any job they want, and men should be able to as well. Men can be house-husbands, take care of kids, run daycares, and work in spaces for females if they truly want to. I believe women are just as strong as men to be in the military, and they can be astronauts, or any other job they prefer. I can sort of see why you believe men should primarily be working in the military, but not every woman is scrawny or not tough. Like men, there are many different types of woman out there. I can see why some jobs would be reserved for certain genders, but honestly I believe there shouldn't be a line, and everyone should go out there and do whatever they want to. And technically, not to be rude I promise but I just wanted to point it out, feminism is not the same thing as equalism, so it technically does not make logical sense to prefer one term over another when they are in different categories.


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## Seroja (May 9, 2016)

I was born a feminist (in terms of what feminism stands for), but I don't call myself one simply because I don't go out and actively fight for the cause. It is something that has always been a part of me even before I learned that feminism exist.


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## Xerolin (May 10, 2016)

hey look its still open!


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## lostineverfreeforest (May 10, 2016)

Feminism in the sense that women should be entitled to equal rights, equal opportunity, and equal treatment? If that makes me a feminist, sure. Biology doesn't need to dictate everything, if you can perform as well as somebody else why should you be denied the same opportunity?


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## Aronthaer (May 10, 2016)

Knew I'd have to go on.

I believe that men and women shouldn't be in combat, together, side-by-side, for several reasons. I believe that women are capable of combat, but unless they were somehow kept separate (which would be a pain in the butt, especially on the battlefield) things could get messy. here's an article that I found recently that basically sums up what would be the issue: http://warontherocks.com/2014/11/heres-why-women-in-combat-units-is-a-bad-idea/ I certainly think that women can serve in some instances, but keeping men and women together in long-term combat units is a no-go.

As for everything else, I don't think we should be segregated into "women do A, men do B" but I do believe that men and women are created differently, with different strengths and weaknesses, and to not take advantage of our differences is to kill something beautiful.

Here's a question: If a perfect equality/feminist society were to develop, what differences between men and women would still exist? are there some things that you would prefer didn't change, or should we be exactly the same, with literally 0 special treatment for men or women?


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## seliph (May 10, 2016)

Aronthaer said:


> Knew I'd have to go on.
> 
> I believe that men and women shouldn't be in combat, together, side-by-side, for several reasons. I believe that women are capable of combat, but unless they were somehow kept separate (which would be a pain in the butt, especially on the battlefield) things could get messy. here's an article that I found recently that basically sums up what would be the issue: http://warontherocks.com/2014/11/heres-why-women-in-combat-units-is-a-bad-idea/ I certainly think that women can serve in some instances, but keeping men and women together in long-term combat units is a no-go.



tl;dr but maybe someone should teach men to keep it in their ****ing pants and act like adults rather than highschool boys.



Aronthaer said:


> As for everything else, I don't think we should be segregated into "women do A, men do B" but I do believe that men and women are created differently, with different strengths and weaknesses, and to not take advantage of our differences is to kill something beautiful.


The "male brain" and the "female brain" are a myth. Brain wiring and re-wiring is easy and the only reason for the false idea of gendered brains is that girls and boys are typically raised and socialized differently since birth ergo they learn to do different things at different times.



Aronthaer said:


> Here's a question: If a perfect equality/feminist society were to develop, what differences between men and women would still exist? are there some things that you would prefer didn't change, or should we be exactly the same, with literally 0 special treatment for men or women?


In terms of how the world and society treats them: There would be no differences, no special treatment, and I fail to see how that's a bad thing.


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## Tao (May 10, 2016)

nvll said:


> tl;dr but maybe someone should teach men to keep it in their ****ing pants and act like adults rather than highschool boys.



I feel if I ever said that with the sexes reversed, I would get a good amount of backlash.


But I guess there's a difference between 'stuffing' and 'being stuffed'.


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## Melchoir (May 10, 2016)

Feminism is a huge thing for me. A lot of my social media is dedicated to activism, primarily intersectional feminism and veganism. A lot of my time is dedicated to learning about issues that different groups of people face. Being queer, LGBT+ rights is a huge area of feminism that is super important to me. I believe that although we've come a long way in regards to women's rights, there is still a long way to go in terms of equal rights for all.


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## visibleghost (May 10, 2016)

omg this thread isn't locked yet is this a miracle that a discussion thread isn't locked after one night



Aronthaer said:


> Knew I'd have to go on.
> Here's a question: If a perfect equality/feminist society were to develop, what differences between men and women would still exist? are there some things that you would prefer didn't change, or should we be exactly the same, with literally 0 special treatment for men or women?



lol gender doesn't exist thanks to sexism smh.
people can still be women but they don't have to be treated with any less respect than men. they're still women. easy!!!
gender stereotypes should burn in hell honestly. gender would still exist without them, and it would be so miuch better for everyone !!! yay.
just because ppl of all genders would get equally paid (at least if they were of the same race, smh racism still exists.......) for doing the same job or because women wouldnt be harrassed every day on the street doesnt mean that gender stops existing lmao

also
your talk about a females and males being made for different stuff is gross and rly transphobic k bye

also, not quoting that bit because i didnt read all of it, but the article you linked is cishet normative, sexist and not a good reason to why women shouldnt be in combat with men lmaooooo


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## Xerolin (May 10, 2016)

is gender real anymore


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## visibleghost (May 10, 2016)

Xerolin said:


> is gender real anymore



no1 knows

honestly i think gender, as a concept, is rly hard to understand and not rly super obvious. also gender is probably very different for different ppl. most ppl probably need to understand that gender isn't just "HeLL O  MY GENDER IS MALE" or " HI MY GENDER IS FEMALE!" and that's it. gender can b a sht ton of stuff and i honestly think we need to get rid of our society's view of gender that we have 2day.
i dunno tho


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## Fleshy (May 10, 2016)

Aronthaer said:


> but I do believe that men and women are created differently, with different strengths and weaknesses, and to not take advantage of our differences is to kill something beautiful.



How are women and men created differently? Anyone can do anything regardless of gender, women don't have any "strengths" over men and men don't have any "strengths" over women, nor does anyone else. I understand what you are saying but honestly there are no differences, other than how people are raised, society, etc. (and those need to go asap) but no biological differences in how we are created, at all.





Aronthaer said:


> Here's a question: If a perfect equality/feminist society were to develop, what differences between men and women would still exist? are there some things that you would prefer didn't change, or should we be exactly the same, with literally 0 special treatment for men or women?



In my opinion, none. I feel like all the differences between men and women were constructed by society or are ingrained on people as children and none of them are actually necessary. We're all people and I find the separation of "men" and "women" harmful and unnecessary, but sadly I doubt it'll ever change. 





Xerolin said:


> is gender real anymore



yes (but I think it's more complex than that)





lencurryboy said:


> gender can b a sht ton of stuff and i honestly think we need to get rid of our society's view of gender that we have 2day.



I agree 100%


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## Stalfos (May 10, 2016)

I believe in equal rights for everyone, no matter what sex, gender, religion, age, color of skin, hair and eyes etc.
I just choose not to call it feminism or anything else for that matter. It shouldn't even have a name. It should just be common sense quite frankly.


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## focus (May 10, 2016)

i mean................





kind of? 45%
i think everyone should be treated equal but i feel like yall taking this stuff way too far especially with the genders honestly


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## device (May 10, 2016)

No but I'm a maninist


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## ZetaFunction (May 10, 2016)

I support women having equal rights and everything, but I'm not really a feminist so to speak since I wouldn't ever attend any rallies or anything.  But I kinda agree, gender-stereotyping isn't always a given fact when it comes to people, and although it's probably gonna be a long time before it doesn't exist anymore, it's just one of those things that needs to eventually die out or change.  Women can be whoever they want to be, same with men, and lowering women's pay or preventing them things just because they're female is really stupid.  Honestly, why can't all people just be equal asides from the rich and the poor?  It's stupid if you ask me...

Then again, I'm not female, and it doesn't really affect me, so my opinion on this doesn't really count.


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## Brackets (May 10, 2016)

Yes I'm a feminist. I never thought about it much before uni, but going from an all-girls-school to university gave me a massive shock at how women were treated and talked about by men. On my first night out I was sexually harassed by multiple men and I was just like wtf?!? 

Another thing at uni that made me become feminist was how I'm treated in the medical field. My male colleagues are always treated with respect and are taken seriously, but patients often make dirty comments and flirt at me and other female med students and make me uncomfortable. I know this isn't too big a deal, I get over it, but it was just something that got me thinking. 

And no, being feminist doesn't mean I don't care about men's issues or think women should be superior. For example I don't believe baby boys should be circumcised, and I don't believe women should get shorter prison sentences. etc


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## Buttonsy (May 10, 2016)

Yep. Due to my disabilities, I cannot be a super duper active feminist, but I agree with the majority of intersectional feminist opinions and try my best to contribute to activism when I can.


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## Reindeer (May 10, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> How are women and men created differently? Anyone can do anything regardless of gender, women don't have any "strengths" over men and men don't have any "strengths" over women, nor does anyone else. I understand what you are saying but honestly there are no differences, other than how people are raised, society, etc. (and those need to go asap) but no biological differences in how we are created, at all.


Men are naturally stronger physically. If you look at world records held by people, in most categories men place better times and distances than women do (though there are some that women excel in more than men). This is also why officials might sometimes feel the need to verify a person's gender, because of the natural differences that occur in male and female bodies.
Psychologically there are also many differences. Men are generally more logical while women are generally more emotional. Women are better multitaskers than men are. There are more differences, which you can find here.
Bottom line is: biologically we are different, so people don't have equal chances. Men and women both miss out on opportunities that the other sex does get.



As for the topic on hand: I'm for equal rights for all people, within certain bounds (by which I mean taking into account physical and psychological differences). Nowadays I see so many stupid complaints (like manspreading) that just make me assume the people complaining about it are wholly uneducated.


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## visibleghost (May 10, 2016)

Reindeer said:


> Men are naturally stronger physically. If you look at world records held by people, in most categories men place better times and distances than women do (though there are some that women excel in more than men). This is also why officials might sometimes feel the need to verify a person's gender, because of the natural differences that occur in male and female bodies.
> Psychologically there are also many differences. Men are generally more logical while women are generally more emotional. Women are better multitaskers than men are. There are more differences, which you can find here.
> Bottom line is: biologically we are different, so people don't have equal chances. Men and women both miss out on opportunities that the other sex does get.
> 
> ...



alright but can you pls stop using "men" and "women" while talking about sex? it's really transphobic.


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## Reindeer (May 10, 2016)

lencurryboy said:


> alright but can you pls stop using "men" and "women" while talking about sex? it's really transphobic.


I'm talking about their born sex. Unless you know people that were born without something that resembles a penis or a vagina, then I don't see how it's transphobic.
And if I say "male" and "female" it'll be called "dehumanizing".
So no.


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## focus (May 10, 2016)

lencurryboy said:


> alright but can you pls stop using "men" and "women" while talking about sex? it's really transphobic.



how is that in any way, shape or form transphobic


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## seliph (May 10, 2016)

Tao said:


> I feel if I ever said that with the sexes reversed, I would get a good amount of backlash.
> 
> 
> But I guess there's a difference between 'stuffing' and 'being stuffed'.



I don't think so but I haven't ever heard of anyone say "Men should be kept out of x because women flail themselves at them" so I'd just ask why you think that



Reindeer said:


> Men are naturally stronger physically. If you look at world records held by people, in most categories men place better times and distances than women do (though there are some that women excel in more than men). This is also why officials might sometimes feel the need to verify a person's gender, because of the natural differences that occur in male and female bodies.



They aren't though, I know women who can ****ing bench press me. There are more stronger men than women because, again, societal expectations and gender roles.



Reindeer said:


> Psychologically there are also many differences. Men are generally more logical while women are generally more emotional. Women are better multitaskers than men are. There are more differences, which you can find here.
> Bottom line is: biologically we are different, so people don't have equal chances. Men and women both miss out on opportunities that the other sex does get.


Again, this is untrue. Neither sex is naturally more this or naturally more that, it is all based on how people are raised. Women are more "emotional" because they are socialized since birth to take care of _everyone_ and be "nice" and "nurturing" and never make anyone angry. On the other hand, boys are taught that showing a teaspoon of emotion makes them weak. Because of these societal expectations that heavily influence the wiring of peoples' brains, it's impossible to study and prove gender (or sex) differences in regards to peoples brains work.

As for logic VS emotion (also known as left brain VS right brain), another myth. Literally everyone is primarily emotion-driven because that part of your brain _always_ reacts quicker.


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## Geoni (May 10, 2016)

Yeah, I'm feminist. The only rights I think men are in need of is the right to not be a part of the selective service and given they're not the sole breadwinners anymore, better custody trends in divorce courts. 

But the rights women need more are even more problematic. Wage, for example. That's completely unfair. Another example is dress codes in different places. Sports is another example. The over-representation of men has legitimate sexual dimorphism roots, but needs to expand more for women. I think one of the functional reasons sports are so popular with males is that it builds male bonding through comradery and prepares them for the warrior role whereas women bonded through more domestic means, so having a life in sports should be just as mainstream for women. Then again, when attempts are made such as 'women's football' I cringe because of how sexualized they are. And when it comes to women internationally? Rough stuff out there. Feminism is most important internationally. While Hinduism is a nice exception, religion being inherently patriarchal is inherently about men dominating and controlling women by preventing them from having what can be culturally perceived as the greatest status a human can achieve in their involvement in religion (I'm talking high positions in religions). 

Also wtf is manspreading?


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## seliph (May 10, 2016)

Dad said:


> Also wtf is manspreading?



Behold, the manspread:



Spoiler












Pretty much a non-issue, but still ****ing annoying nonetheless.


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## Gregriii (May 10, 2016)

nope


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## Geoni (May 10, 2016)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manspreading

Oh lol I manspread all the time. It's been symbolically interacted into me since I was a kid I guess. It's an open body language thing though. I guess I get the public transportation complaint.


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## Gregriii (May 10, 2016)

lencurryboy said:


> alright but can you pls stop using "men" and "women" while talking about sex? it's really transphobic.



I see you're a typical tumblr user


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## seliph (May 10, 2016)

Gregriii said:


> I see you're a typical tumblr user



I see you still contribute nothing to any discussion


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## Gregriii (May 10, 2016)

nvll said:


> I see you still contribute nothing to any discussion



I did 


Gregriii said:


> nope


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## Geoni (May 10, 2016)

Hey if a man is manspreading and a woman is she-bagging, just have the woman put the purse in front of the man's manspread and everyone can win. #equality #genderissuesolved


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## seliph (May 10, 2016)

Dad said:


> Hey if a man is manspreading and a woman is she-bagging, just have the woman put the purse in front of the man's manspread and everyone can win. #equality #genderissuesolved



The patriarchy is smashed
Feminism is saved
We can all sit down


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## Tao (May 10, 2016)

focus said:


> how is that in any way, shape or form transphobic



I've seen it used so much [by them] that I'm pretty sure "that's transphobic" is just their catchphrase.

It's not as good as "yabadaba doo" or "zoiks" though.




nvll said:


> I don't think so but I haven't ever heard of anyone say "Men should be kept out of x because women flail themselves at them" so I'd just ask why you think that




Well since you said TL: DR in regard to the article, I assumed you either didn't read it or just skimmed it and tried to 'get the jist'. I 'skimmed it' (because I wasn't reading all that either) and seemed to me it was pointing out why women being in the army would be an issue because of *both* sexes causing issues, not solely because men try to constantly screw them.

Just seemed like a "men trying to screw something are disgusting, a woman is breaking new boundaries" type deal.

For the record, on the actual topic that was being discussed, I don't see why a woman shouldn't be allowed in the army. I thought a lot of the points in the article were stupid (at least the ones I read) and that if they can pass the physical and mental tests that are set in place to join the armed forces that men also have to pass, there's absolutely no reason they're not fit for the job simply because they've got a vajay-jay.




nvll said:


> There are more stronger men than women because, again, societal expectations and gender roles.



And testosterone, among other natural things men tend to naturally have more of thanks to their nuts.

The average man is stronger than the average woman. That's just the result of having different parts. Sure, there's going to be weaker guys out there and there are women who could crush the average man, but somebody like Ronda Rousey isn't the 'average' woman.

And looking at a few records, Olympic male weight lifters are/were getting totals between 305kg-472kg. Women are between 212kg-333kg.
Source 

These people train specifically to do this stuff and set out to be the best at it, so I doubt social expectations and getting a Barbie for their 12 birthday is accountable for that higher end 139kg difference.


----------



## seliph (May 10, 2016)

Tao said:


> Well since you said TLR in regard to the article, I assumed you either didn't read it or just skimmed it and tried to 'get the jist'. I 'skimmed it' (because I wasn't reading all that either) and seemed to me it was pointing out why women being in the army would be an issue because of *both* sexes causing issues, not solely because men try to constantly screw them.
> 
> Just seemed like a "men trying to screw something are disgusting, a woman is breaking new boundaries" type deal.
> 
> For the record, on the actual topic that was being discussed, I don't see why a woman shouldn't be allowed in the army. I thought a lot of the points in the article were stupid (at least the ones I read) and that if they can pass the physical and mental tests that are set in place to join the armed forces that men also have to pass, there's absolutely no reason they're not fit for the job simply because they've got a vajay-jay.



I read the first half 'cause ain't no one can expect me to read All That ****™ but what I did read was "Women shouldn't be in the army (with men) because the guys will compete for her rather than doing their job, and also men cheat on their wives". While sure that's pretty garbage I really don't think the solution is separating them like school kids. If a man (or woman) is scummy they're gonna be scummy regardless of whether they're in the army with the opposite sex or not.

But yeah I agree, I don't see why women shouldn't be in the army if they're physically and mentally prepared enough.


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## Geoni (May 10, 2016)

Reading up on the military inequality issues I used to understand and I just found out that women can and are joining the Navy Seals and Marine Corps Infantry now. Seeing arguments about 'women distracting' and 'women requring seperate sleeping quarters and cameras (as a result $). Which are bad arguments. It just needs some time for the right women to prove themselves alongside the men for them not to be socially distracting. They made the same arguments against homosexuals. Also in regards to the cameras and sleeping quarters, over 50% of sexual assault in the military is male on male so...


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## Bowie (May 10, 2016)

Dad said:


> over 50% of sexual assault in the military is male on male so...



Is that true? I wouldn't have imagined.


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## seliph (May 10, 2016)

Tao said:


> *And testosterone, among other natural things men tend to naturally have more of thanks to their nuts.
> *
> The average man is stronger than the average woman. That's just the result of having different parts. Sure, there's going to be weaker guys out there and there are women who could crush the average man, but somebody like Ronda Rousey isn't the 'average' woman.
> 
> ...



Oh yeah I forgot about that ****

I just read his post as yet another MEN ARE ALWAYS THE STRONK GRRRR WOMEN ARE WEAK WOMEN SHOULD DO DISHES even though like you said Ronda could level the floor with all of us


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## Brackets (May 10, 2016)

Reindeer said:


> Psychologically there are also many differences. Men are generally more logical while women are generally more emotional. Women are better multitaskers than men are. There are more differences, which you can find here.
> Bottom line is: biologically we are different, so people don't have equal chances. Men and women both miss out on opportunities that the other sex does get.



I agree that there are obviously physical differences, but not so sure about the psychological ones. Like, is there actually proof that men are more 'logical' - and how do you even quantify that? For example, in the UK at least, women tend to do better in standardised exams than men in the 'logical' subjects, such as maths and science. So surely from that evidence you could say women are more logical? 

And can you prove that women are more 'emotional'? If so, then wouldn't you expect more women to commit suicide than men - but they don't? I don't really think it's as simple as that.


----------



## marinamarina (May 10, 2016)

Brackets said:


> I agree that there are obviously physical differences, but not so sure about the psychological ones. Like, is there actually proof that men are more 'logical' - and how do you even quantify that? For example, in the UK at least, women tend to do better in standardised exams than men in the 'logical' subjects, such as maths and science. So surely from that evidence you could say women are more logical?
> 
> And can you prove that women are more 'emotional'? If so, then wouldn't you expect more women to commit suicide than men - but they don't? I don't really think it's as simple as that.



I agree with you. Besides I feel like a lot of these ideas come from stereotypes, and how men and women present themselves due to socialization. Like for example a lot of men are more emotional than they let on.


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## Brackets (May 10, 2016)

marinamarina said:


> I agree with you. Besides I feel like a lot of these ideas come from stereotypes, and how men and women present themselves due to socialization. Like for example a lot of men are more emotional than they let on.



Yeah exactly, I feel like a lot of guys don't show their emotions, because they're worried someone will call them gay or something. In society it's less acceptable for men to be emotional. I actually remember reading an article once (sorry I can't for the life of me remember where) that said that guys actually have a rougher time with break-ups and things than girls, because they're not allowed to cry about it with their friends and get angry; they have to coop it all up inside. It's sad.


----------



## radical6 (May 10, 2016)

no because its been taken up with libfems who think wearing makeup is "empowering" and porn is healthy for society


----------



## RainbowCherry (May 10, 2016)

I honestly don't bloody care about anything that doesn't directly effect me or that I don't enjoy/care about. I wouldn't consider myself a feminist at all.


----------



## marinamarina (May 10, 2016)

justice said:


> no because its been taken up with libfems who think wearing makeup is "empowering" and porn is healthy for society



What's wrong w makeup though? in places where women have v few rights its often one of the first things to go.


----------



## Reindeer (May 10, 2016)

nvll said:


> They aren't though, I know women who can ****ing bench press me. There are more stronger men than women because, again, societal expectations and gender roles.
> 
> Again, this is untrue. Neither sex is naturally more this or naturally more that, it is all based on how people are raised. Women are more "emotional" because they are socialized since birth to take care of _everyone_ and be "nice" and "nurturing" and never make anyone angry. On the other hand, boys are taught that showing a teaspoon of emotion makes them weak. Because of these societal expectations that heavily influence the wiring of peoples' brains, it's impossible to study and prove gender (or sex) differences in regards to peoples brains work.
> 
> As for logic VS emotion (also known as left brain VS right brain), another myth. Literally everyone is primarily emotion-driven because that part of your brain _always_ reacts quicker.


You're using anecdotal evidence to fight empirical evidence.
How do societal expectations tell a male body to produce more testosterone than estrogen? How do societal expectations give a female body a larger hippocampus? How do societal expectations lead to the gender difference in the way brains process chemicals from birth?
They don't.


----------



## seliph (May 10, 2016)

Reindeer said:


> You're using anecdotal evidence to fight empirical evidence.
> How do societal expectations tell a male body to produce more testosterone than estrogen? How do societal expectations give a female body a larger hippocampus? How do societal expectations lead to the gender difference in the way brains process chemicals from birth?
> They don't.


Addressed the testosterone thing above, I completely forgot about it


----------



## Reindeer (May 10, 2016)

Dad said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manspreading
> 
> Oh lol I manspread all the time. It's been symbolically interacted into me since I was a kid I guess. It's an open body language thing though. I guess I get the public transportation complaint.


You do it all the time because it helps your biological functions. Your testicles need to be below your body temperature (34-35 Celsius while body temperature is 37-38) in order to produce healthy sperm cells. Spreading your legs aids in this.
Telling a man to stop spreading his legs is like telling a woman to stop having her period. Both are related to fertility after all.

*Edit:* Just adding a bit to this. Some guys do go overboard, like the one in the picture that nvll posted earlier (which I think is joking about the guys that do sit like that). But telling men to close their legs entirely is absurd.



nvll said:


> Addressed the testosterone thing above, I completely forgot about it


Aight, cool, I didn't see it because I didn't read the rest of the thread before I responded. It was mentioned in the article I linked though, so I was also going off the assumption you'd read it.


----------



## kayleee (May 10, 2016)

Yes I absolutely am. I feel sorry for the people who say they aren't


----------



## Aniko (May 10, 2016)

marinamarina said:


> What's wrong w makeup though? in places where women have v few rights its often one of the first things to go.



I think there is nothing wrong with make-up as long as you are free to wear it or not. And when I mean free, I mean you are not expected to wear it or not. For instance, I never wear make-up and of course I'm getting comments as what I should be prouder and take care of myself and be more feminine and so on, people like to remind me how pale, tired and sick I look and they even think that if I had a boyfriend, I would look more radiant and therefor wear make-up....(in their logic) There are also the opposite, some people are calling the ones who wear make-up, superficial, insecure, easy and so on..like "have you seen her? she wears more make-up than an old prostitute".


----------



## Cudon (May 10, 2016)

Brackets said:


> I agree that there are obviously physical differences, but not so sure about the psychological ones. Like, is there actually proof that men are more 'logical' - and how do you even quantify that? For example, in the UK at least, women tend to do better in standardised exams than men in the 'logical' subjects, such as maths and science. So surely from that evidence you could say women are more logical?
> 
> And can you prove that women are more 'emotional'? If so, then wouldn't you expect more women to commit suicide than men - but they don't? I don't really think it's as simple as that.


Iirc I've heard that women in general just enjoy school much more than men do because of the way it's taught or something. Too lazy to look for a source but that's something i've heard a good amount.

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-women-in-general-do-better-at-school-as-compared-to-men <- I guess thatll do


----------



## marinamarina (May 10, 2016)

Aniko said:


> I think there is nothing wrong with make-up as long as you are free to wear it or not. And when I mean free, I mean you are not expected to wear it or not. For instance, I never wear make-up and of course I'm getting comments as what I should be prouder and take care of myself and be more feminine and so on, people like to remind me how pale, tired and sick I look and they even think that if I had a boyfriend, I would look more radiant and therefor wear make-up....(in their logic) There are also the opposite, some people are calling the ones who wear make-up, superficial, insecure, easy and so on..like "have you seen her? she wears more make-up than an old prostitute".



Yeah it can be a catch 22 for sure! I usually wear makeup and I've gotten comments about how it's a waste of time, that I look better/ the same w/o it, people have assumed that I'm ditzy, or spend most my time getting ready (i dress girly too )


----------



## Fleshy (May 10, 2016)

focus said:


> how is that in any way, shape or form transphobic



Not that there's any point explaining it but the way people here have used the word "man" to mean people with high testosterone levels, and have said that men stronger because they're born with "certain parts" completely erases trans people and does come across transphobic (more cis-normative than transphobic but yeah), weather it is meant that way or not.

The way "man" and "women" are used in regard to sex is transphobic because it makes assumptions that all men are a certain way and all women are a certain way too, which isn't true.


----------



## Aniko (May 10, 2016)

marinamarina said:


> Yeah it can be a catch 22 for sure! I usually wear makeup and I've gotten comments about how it's a waste of time, that I look better/ the same w/o it, people have assumed that I'm ditzy, or spend most my time getting ready (i dress girly too )



Yes, like everything we do is wrong anyway. I think people should be free to do as they like and not getting negative comments for  it.


----------



## seliph (May 10, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> Not that there's any point explaining it but the way people here have used the word "man" to mean people with high testosterone levels, and have said that men stronger because they're born with "certain parts" completely erases trans people and does come across transphobic (more cis-normative than transphobic but yeah), weather it is meant that way or not.
> 
> The way "man" and "women" are used in regard to sex is transphobic because it makes assumptions that all men are a certain way and all women are a certain way too, which isn't true.



I'm pretty sure no one is being transphobic, cisnormative sure but it's just way easier than saying "amabs" and "afabs" and is much easier to understand, especially for people whose first language isn't English or have comprehension troubles in general.


----------



## Brackets (May 10, 2016)

Dinomates said:


> Iirc I've heard that women in general just enjoy school much more than men do because of the way it's taught or something. Too lazy to look for a source but that's something i've heard a good amount.
> 
> https://www.quora.com/Why-do-women-in-general-do-better-at-school-as-compared-to-men <- I guess thatll do



Oh yeah I get that there could be other factors that could explain that, but my point was that it's pretty hard to quantify logic and say that men are on average more logical. Looking at brain studies isn't exactly conclusive, because we still don't really know exactly how the brain works. And for another example, the majority of people going into medicine now are women, and being a doctor is thought to be a very scientific and logical job. Of course, there are caring aspects of it as well, but the main part is being logical and figuring out the most likely diagnosis. Basically what I'm saying is I doubt it's as clear cut as people are saying.


----------



## marinamarina (May 10, 2016)

nvll said:


> I'm pretty sure no one is being transphobic, cisnormative sure but it's just way easier than saying "amabs" and "afabs" and is much easier to understand, especially for people whose first language isn't English or have comprehension troubles in general.



Yeah English is my first language and I wouldn't have understood that. I've never heard those words before now!


----------



## Fleshy (May 10, 2016)

nvll said:


> I'm pretty sure no one is being transphobic, cisnormative sure but it's just way easier than saying "amabs" and "afabs" and is much easier to understand, especially for people whose first language isn't English or have comprehension troubles in general.



Yeah I understand that, that's why I said that there wasn't much point explaining it, I don't think anyone has meant to be transphobic at all (but I can also see why someone would take it that way). I understand that using "man" and "woman" that way rather than "amab, afab" or anything else is easier and makes it more understandable, so I don't personally have a problem with it.


----------



## Aniko (May 10, 2016)

What is a man, what is a woman after all? Biologically, physically and emotionally we are not all the same, we don't belong 100% to a group. 

I'm told I'm a woman and yet I'm also told I don't look, act and think as one ??? What do you want society? Not the same thing as I do, that's sure.


----------



## seliph (May 10, 2016)

marinamarina said:


> Yeah English is my first language and I wouldn't have understood that. I've never heard those words before now!



AMAB - Assigned Male At Birth
AFAB - Assigned Female At Birth

English is my first language but even I'd get confused 'cause when it comes to words I'm like ??????what??????


----------



## Reindeer (May 10, 2016)

nvll said:


> I'm pretty sure no one is being transphobic, cisnormative sure but it's just way easier than saying "amabs" and "afabs" and is much easier to understand, especially for people whose first language isn't English or have comprehension troubles in general.


I think it's just people that don't spend their time being brainwashed by tumblr.

I have nothing against trans people. All the power to them. But I was speaking biologically. At that point you are just talking about the biological differences between men (those born with a penis) and women (those born with a vagina) and the physical and chemical differences they experience because of their natural gender.
Once you start talking about trans people, you're speaking about people in a psychological and/or social field. There's a difference.


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## ApolloJusticeAC (May 10, 2016)

no

they all annoy the heck of me
can't we all be equal?


----------



## marinamarina (May 10, 2016)

nvll said:


> AMAB - Assigned Male At Birth
> AFAB - Assigned Female At Birth
> 
> English is my first language but even I'd get confused 'cause when it comes to words I'm like ??????what??????



Oh that makes sense! Teaching new words to all the speakers of a language is very difficult. and then with gender stuff I feel that english is easier? because in a lot of languages everything is gendered (I know male is default but still) and I imagine it's much harder then, w gender neutral pronouns and such and idk what they do about adjectives


----------



## Aniko (May 10, 2016)

Reindeer said:


> I think it's just people that don't spend their time being brainwashed by tumblr.
> 
> I have nothing against trans people. All the power to them. But I was speaking biologically. At that point you are just talking about the biological differences between men (those born with a penis) and women (those born with a vagina) and the physical and chemical differences they experience because of their natural gender.
> Once you start talking about trans people, you're speaking about people in a psychological and/or social field. There's a difference.



Not everyone has a penis or vagina at birth.

- - - Post Merge - - -



marinamarina said:


> Oh that makes sense! Teaching new words to all the speakers of a language is very difficult. and then with gender stuff I feel that english is easier? because in a lot of languages everything is gendered (I know male is default but still) and I imagine it's much harder then, w gender neutral pronouns and such and idk what they do about adjectives



Like in French for instance, all of this is getting complicated, I wish it would be one pronoun for all, no gender at all.


----------



## seliph (May 10, 2016)

marinamarina said:


> Oh that makes sense! Teaching new words to all the speakers of a language is very difficult. and then with gender stuff I feel that english is easier? because in a lot of languages everything is gendered (I know male is default but still) and I imagine it's much harder then, w gender neutral pronouns and such and idk what they do about adjectives





Aniko said:


> Like in French for instance, all of this is getting complicated, I wish it would be one pronoun for all, no gender at all.



I was just gonna say while English is better I envy the languages who just have one pronoun for everything, though at least English isn't like French where objects are "masculine" or "feminine". Like why is this acid feminine, I will never know.


----------



## marinamarina (May 10, 2016)

nvll said:


> I was just gonna say while English is better I envy the languages who just have one pronoun for everything, though at least English isn't like French where objects are "masculine" or "feminine". Like why is this acid feminine, I will never know.



As someone who learned French I felt like it wasn't super fun to learn either, and at the beginning I would sometimes use female adjectives (cause that was what I was used to using) for my male friends and they'd get all annoyed haha. But yeah, I wonder how it goes for people who dont identify as male or female? would they use the masculine since that's default


----------



## LethalLulu (May 10, 2016)

twentyonepilots said:


> no
> 
> they all annoy the heck of me
> can't we all be equal?



You do realize feminism means equality, right?


----------



## Aniko (May 10, 2016)

nvll said:


> I was just gonna say while English is better I envy the languages who just have one pronoun for everything, though at least English isn't like French where objects are "masculine" or "feminine". Like why is this acid feminine, I will never know.



French speakers don't get it either, chair is feminine, sofa is masculine, why? Who decided of that?


----------



## seliph (May 10, 2016)

marinamarina said:


> As someone who learned French I felt like it wasn't super fun to learn either, and at the beginning I would sometimes use female adjectives (cause that was what I was used to using) for my male friends and they'd get all annoyed haha. But yeah, I wonder how it goes for people who dont identify as male or female? would they use the masculine since that's default


I had to take french for like 6 years since it's mandatory in Canada and while it was easy it was suuuuper boring. But yeah I have no idea how they'd refer to nb people.



Aniko said:


> French speakers don't get it either, chair is feminine, sofa is masculine, why? Who decided of that?



Well I'm glad the French realize that they're ridiculous lool


----------



## Aniko (May 10, 2016)

marinamarina said:


> As someone who learned French I felt like it wasn't super fun to learn either, and at the beginning I would sometimes use female adjectives (cause that was what I was used to using) for my male friends and they'd get all annoyed haha. But yeah, I wonder how it goes for people who dont identify as male or female? would they use the masculine since that's default



I heard that some invented some new ways to say things, but everybody I know just don't bother and go with one or the other.
I think one of the new pronouns is "ille"...but it sounds the same as "il" so...I don't get it.


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## wassop (May 10, 2016)

shouldn't everyone be ?


----------



## marinamarina (May 10, 2016)

Aniko said:


> I heard that some invented some new ways to say things, but everybody I know just don't bother and go with one or the other.
> I think one of the new pronouns is "ille"...but it sounds the same as "il" so...I don't get it.



Would they still use masc. adjectives and stuff? Like ille est heureux? that's just what seems complicated to me idk how they could change it, and I see that and I want to pronounce it "ee" like in famille which feels awk to me idk tho


----------



## Aniko (May 10, 2016)

marinamarina said:


> Would they still use masc. adjectives and stuff? Like ille est heureux? that's just what seems complicated to me idk how they could change it, and I see that and I want to pronounce it "ee" like in famille which feels awk to me idk tho



I have no idea, as I said most of people just don't bother even if they are no binary or use plural.


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## dierefuji (May 10, 2016)

No, because:
a) It isn't needed in the first world.
b) I don't want to be associated with third wave feminists.
c) The term "feminism" implies exclusive rights for women, when there are problems many men go through, which seemingly all modern feminists ignore.
d) I prefer egalitarianism (see reason C).


----------



## Aniko (May 10, 2016)

dierefuji said:


> No, because:
> a) It isn't needed in the first world.
> b) I don't want to be associated with third wave feminists.
> c) The term "feminism" implies exclusive rights for women, when there are problems many men go through, which seemingly all modern feminists ignore.
> d) I prefer egalitarianism (see reason C).



I don't agree with that, there are still inequality in the first world.


----------



## dierefuji (May 10, 2016)

Aniko said:


> I don't agree with that, there are still inequality in the first world.



Inequality? Yes. 
Gender inequality? Yes.
Gender inequality *against* women? Next to none.
Gender inequality *against* men? Yes.


----------



## Ghost Soda (May 10, 2016)

Absolutely.



dierefuji said:


> c) The term "feminism" implies exclusive rights for women, when there are problems many men go through, which seemingly all modern feminists ignore.



AFAIK, most of these "man probs" are directly caused by misogyny. And feminism was started for women to get the same rights as men, we're not changing the name just because "wah wah, wat about mennn".


----------



## seliph (May 10, 2016)

Tbh guys save your energy and don't bother with dierefuji lmao


----------



## marinamarina (May 10, 2016)

dierefuji said:


> Inequality? Yes.
> Gender inequality? Yes.
> Gender inequality *against* women? Next to none.
> Gender inequality *against* men? Yes.



Are you a guy? Have you experienced gender inequality? Does my being fourteen and being yelled at in a way that is sexually explicit and followed and grabbed by middle aged men when I went out in public not count of sexism?


----------



## dierefuji (May 10, 2016)

Ghost Soda said:


> AFAIK, most of these "man probs" are directly caused by misogyny. And feminism was started for women to get the same rights as men, we're not changing the name just because "wah wah, wat about mennn".



>>>/tumblr/
In all seriousness, that is an example of a strawman fallacy. You're misrepresenting the arguement of MRAs; their arguement isn't ""wah wah, wat about mennn"", but rather asking for more movements and chance done to help the problems many men face. Also, changing the name wouldn't even be a big deal.
Secondly, ""man probs"" are not mostly caused by misogyny. Many insults based on masculinity aren't based directly on misogyny. Before you say that it is basically condemning men leaning towards feminine sides (the anima), it isn't. It's based on traditional gender roles in society, which is demonstrated in many animal societies. Gender roles aren't misogynist, they're merely a tradition that has gone unchanged for a long time. The fact that many women for the longest time have tend to lean towards housework, taking care of children, and doing housework duties isn't discrimination against women. Again, just because certain people in a household tend to (more often than not) fall into these gender roles doesn't make it discrimination.



marinamarina said:


> Are you a guy? Have you experienced gender inequality? Does my being fourteen and being yelled at in a way that is sexually explicit and followed and grabbed by middle aged men when I went out in public not count of sexism?



1) Yes. 
2) Yes.
3) I never said nor implied that.



nvll said:


> Tbh guys save your energy and don't bother with dierefuji lmao



I guess politics count only when it's one sided and doesn't involve actually making your points and refuting opponents' claims.


----------



## seliph (May 10, 2016)

dierefuji said:


> I guess politics count only when it's one sided and doesn't involve actually making your points and refuting opponents' claims.



Did you just ****ing greentext on tbt LMAO

Anyways funny you mention that when you clearly didn't read the whole thread. The only decent point you made was B.


----------



## marinamarina (May 10, 2016)

dierefuji said:


> >>>/tumblr/
> In all seriousness, that is an example of a strawman fallacy. You're misrepresenting the arguement of MRAs; their arguement isn't ""wah wah, wat about mennn"", but rather asking for more movements and chance done to help the problems many men face. Also, changing the name wouldn't even be a big deal.
> Secondly, ""man probs"" are not mostly caused by misogyny. Many insults based on masculinity aren't based directly on misogyny. Before you say that it is basically condemning men leaning towards feminine sides (the anima), it isn't. It's based on traditional gender roles in society, which is demonstrated in many animal societies. Gender roles aren't misogynist, they're merely a tradition that has gone unchanged for a long time. The fact that many women for the longest time have tend to lean towards housework, taking care of children, and doing housework duties isn't discrimination against women. Again, just because certain people in a household tend to (more often than not) fall into these gender roles doesn't make it discrimination.
> 
> ...



You def implied that but okay..


----------



## dierefuji (May 10, 2016)

nvll said:


> Did you just ****ing greentext on tbt LMAO
> 
> Anyways funny you mention that when you clearly didn't read the whole thread. The only decent point you made was B.



"Did you just asterisk-asterisk-asterisk-asterisk-asterisk-ing greentext on tbt lmao" this is a joke
Also, no.


----------



## Reindeer (May 10, 2016)

Aniko said:


> Not everyone has a penis or vagina at birth.


I assume you're talking about intersex people. With them there are still hormones present that affect them much in the same way that the same hormones affect men or women. Their genitalia just happened to deform/mutate during their development in the womb, and that's why they can't be assigned a natural gender without being tested for such hormonal influences (or by just looking at their development - after all an individual with female growth hormones will naturally develop breasts).


----------



## Aniko (May 10, 2016)

dierefuji said:


> Inequality? Yes.
> Gender inequality? Yes.
> Gender inequality *against* women? Next to none.
> Gender inequality *against* men? Yes.



There is still salary. There is still how people treat them, it doesn't mean in any case that there are no inequality against men either.


----------



## dierefuji (May 10, 2016)

Aniko said:


> There is still salary. There is still how people treat them, it doesn't mean in any case that there are no inequality against men either.



The wage gap doesn't really exist.
For one, it is illegal to discriminate the workers based on their sex. Secondly, you have to take into account the fact that men tend to take higher paying jobs while women tend to take lower paying jobs. 
infographic because im rlly tired and dont want to link the actual sources lmao


----------



## Jared:3 (May 10, 2016)

I'm a guy, and I hate it, I hate having guys that make fun of me, I hate it, but yes, I'm more like a girl, I enjoy fashion, I love high heels, and love handbags, so yeah


----------



## marinamarina (May 10, 2016)

dierefuji said:


> The wage gap doesn't really exist.
> For one, it is illegal to discriminate the workers based on their sex. Secondly, you have to take into account the fact that men tend to take higher paying jobs while women tend to take lower paying jobs.
> infographic because im rlly tired and dont want to link the actual sources lmao



Even if you don't believe in the wage gap, there is still sexism against women.


----------



## Fleshy (May 10, 2016)

Reindeer said:


> I assume you're talking about intersex people. With them there are still hormones present that affect them much in the same way that the same hormones affect men or women. Their genitalia just happened to deform/mutate during their development in the womb, and that's why they can't be assigned a natural gender without being tested for such hormonal influences (or by just looking at their development - after all an individual with female growth hormones will naturally develop breasts).



I feel like this is a very broad attempt to 'explain intersex people' and it isn't very correct or appropriate.


----------



## seliph (May 10, 2016)

dierefuji said:


> The wage gap doesn't really exist.
> For one, it is illegal to discriminate the workers based on their sex. Secondly, you have to take into account the fact that men tend to take higher paying jobs while women tend to take lower paying jobs.
> infographic because im rlly tired and dont want to link the actual sources lmao



Wow I didn't know making things illegal meant they'd never happen ever



Jared:3 said:


> I'm a guy, and I hate it, I hate having guys that make fun of me, I hate it, but yes, I'm more like a girl, I enjoy fashion, I love high heels, and love handbags, so yeah


Jared this thread is about feminism not femininity


----------



## Jared:3 (May 10, 2016)

Oh yeah, and I also hate that if you have a penis or a vagina that's what determines your sex, I'm really tired of it


----------



## marinamarina (May 10, 2016)

nvll said:


> Wow I didn't know making things illegal meant they'd never happen ever



Right? I'm so happy to here that rape and murder are obsolete!


----------



## LethalLulu (May 10, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> Oh yeah, and I also hate that if you have a penis or a vagina that's what determines your sex, I'm really tired of it



Well, it does.  It's gender that it doesn't effect.
Remember kids:


----------



## Aniko (May 10, 2016)

Reindeer said:


> I assume you're talking about intersex people. With them there are still hormones present that affect them much in the same way that the same hormones affect men or women. Their genitalia just happened to deform/mutate during their development in the womb, and that's why they can't be assigned a natural gender without being tested for such hormonal influences (or by just looking at their development - after all an individual with female growth hormones will naturally develop breasts).



Not only intersex, some are xx or xy without any vagina (MRKH) or penis, some are also xo, xxy, yyx some have male chromosomes with a female body. Some have also a penis and breast and feminine features. In the case of that Olympic runner, a whole bunch of doctors couldn't decide if she was female or male. So even biologically it's not always that clear.


----------



## seliph (May 10, 2016)

marinamarina said:


> Right? I'm so happy to here that rape and murder are obsolete!



Domestic abuse and DUIs are also just a myth


----------



## Jared:3 (May 10, 2016)

LethalLulu said:


> Well, it does.  It's gender that it doesn't effect.
> Remember kids:


That's is kind of funny lol


----------



## LethalLulu (May 10, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> That's is kind of funny lol



I love it, and I always use it when talking about gender because I'm huge into this stuff.  Although I say "gender" not identity.  I will start using both, though.


----------



## dierefuji (May 10, 2016)

nvll said:


> Wow I didn't know making things illegal meant they'd never happen ever


I guess I should've been more specific and explaining.
It's way less likely for something to happen when it's illegal, especially with this example as feminism becames ever more prevalent (again).
Basically, there's less of a chance for it to happen.


----------



## santoyo.bay (May 10, 2016)

dierefuji said:


> I guess I should've been more specific and explaining.
> It's way less likely for something to happen when it's illegal, especially with this example as feminism becames ever more prevalent (again).
> Basically, there's less of a chance for it to happen.



wow. great logic. discrimination never went away.


----------



## Aniko (May 10, 2016)

dierefuji said:


> The wage gap doesn't really exist.
> For one, it is illegal to discriminate the workers based on their sex. Secondly, you have to take into account the fact that men tend to take higher paying jobs while women tend to take lower paying jobs.
> infographic because im rlly tired and dont want to link the actual sources lmao



Jobs that need the same qualifications (diploma) and responsibilities should be paid the same. However you still can earn more money working without diploma and with less responsibilities in area where they hire mostly men. It changed a lot with the years but it's still like that in some companies. Where I worked the guys working in sales were paid much than women for the same job, except that they worked less, they spent more time next to the coffeemaker talking about women.


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## dierefuji (May 10, 2016)

santoyo.bay said:


> wow. great logic. discrimination never went away.



Nice job relaying insults on an arguement in a condescending non-serious tone while still completely missing the point.
What should I have expected from tumblrinas?

- - - Post Merge - - -



Aniko said:


> Jobs that need the same qualifications (diploma) and responsibilities should be paid the same. However you still can earn more money working without diploma and with less responsibilities in area where they hire mostly men. It changed a lot with the years but it's still like that in some companies. Where I worked the guys working in sales were paid much than women for the same job, except that they worked less, they spent more time next to the coffeemaker talking about women.



Well, that is still more of the company administrator's fault for not getting onto people for not working.
But I mostly agree, though mainly my point was that when the wage gap is mentioned, it typically ignores such points like job, responsibility, experience, etc.


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## seliph (May 10, 2016)

dierefuji said:


> Nice job relaying insults on an arguement in a condescending non-serious tone while still completely missing the point.





dierefuji said:


> What should I have expected from tumblrinas?



You're kidding me with this right


----------



## dierefuji (May 10, 2016)

nvll said:


> You're kidding me with this right



Yes, actually. That was the joke.


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## seliph (May 10, 2016)

dierefuji said:


> Yes, actually. That was the joke.



Thank the lord


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## marinamarina (May 10, 2016)

This thread has had a long and interesting life. Feminism is what you want it to be y'all.


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## Aniko (May 10, 2016)

dierefuji said:


> Nice job relaying insults on an arguement in a condescending non-serious tone while still completely missing the point.
> What should I have expected from tumblrinas?
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> ...



Well, the boss was sexist that's all. Those guys had just one year of experience and sold less than others, there were no reasons for them to be paid more. 

Right, the salary should be decided on the qualifications and responsibilities, like nurses who have diplomas and are responsible of life of their patients, shouldn't be paid less than some people working in construction (for instance) or picking up the trash with just a high school diploma.


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## AnonymousFish (May 10, 2016)

I meant to hit "Other" but I hit No instead. Sorry.  
Anyway, I prefer to think of equality as more than just gender-based... and since Feminists usually get a bad rep because of the radical (few) men-haters, I go with Egalitarian. But that's just me. c:


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## santoyo.bay (May 10, 2016)

AnonymousFish said:


> I meant to hit "Other" but I hit No instead. Sorry.
> Anyway, I prefer to think of equality as more than just gender-based... and since Feminists usually get a bad rep because of the radical (few) men-haters, I go with Egalitarian. But that's just me. c:



Sadly there are some man-hating "feminists", but those aren't feminists.


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## Fantasyrick (May 10, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> Oh yeah, and I also hate that if you have a penis or a vagina that's what determines your sex, I'm really tired of it



What did that have to do with anything?


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## radical6 (May 10, 2016)

marinamarina said:


> What's wrong w makeup though? in places where women have v few rights its often one of the first things to go.



lol what? you think women in saudi arabia are concerned they can't wear makeup?

WHY do women feel pressured to wear makeup is the real question. WHY do women feel the need to dress themselves up? why can't we look casual like men? why do we have to put so much effort into maintaining ourselves? 

makeup is not "empowering". i dont give a **** about choice feminism. i dont care if you wear makeup, but acting like a 12 yr old girl is "empowered" for wearing makeup (re: shes pressured and wants to fit in) is ****ing hilarious.

liberal feminism is stupid as **** and only applies to western, middle class women who think they're representing poor minority girls when they're not.

newsflash: someone saying you wear too much makeup is not oppression, actual poor girls dont give a **** about what you wear when they're trying not to get raped. my feminism does not give a **** about white middle class pampered little ****s who act like theyre the most oppressed int he world because they can't wear makeup without someone saying it looks bad or something. guess what. i dont care. 

my concern has always been with poor minority girls in struggling countries who are forced into sexual trafficking. i literally do not give two ****s about why people shame you for watching porn. porn is also ****ing evil and not feminist at all, but thats another topic for another day.

all modern feminism is in the west is catering to white middle class women. thats literally it. no one gives a ****ing damn about girls being sold as ****ing sex slaves. no one gives a ****ing damn about honor killings. not one. i refuse to talk to liberal feminists who think they're "oppressed" when they give no ****s besides themselves.


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## ApolloJusticeAC (May 10, 2016)

justice said:


> lol what? you think women in saudi arabia are concerned they can't wear makeup?
> 
> WHY do women feel pressured to wear makeup is the real question. WHY do women feel the need to dress themselves up? why can't we look casual like men? why do we have to put so much effort into maintaining ourselves?
> 
> ...



preach it
also this thread is getting out of hand so...


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## marinamarina (May 10, 2016)

justice said:


> lol what? you think women in saudi arabia are concerned they can't wear makeup?
> 
> WHY do women feel pressured to wear makeup is the real question. WHY do women feel the need to dress themselves up? why can't we look casual like men? why do we have to put so much effort into maintaining ourselves?
> 
> ...



Omg calm down, I wasn't saying that it's the most important thing. You're taking it really personally and I never said I was oppressed because of makeup I was just responding to you saying that makeup wasn't empowering. To me it is cause it allows me to control my appearance in a creative way and I have struggled w my appearance to the point of an ed (sorry stupid white girl prob  ) are you doing any thing to help those women? I don't watch porn but not all of it comes from sex trafficking?

- - - Post Merge - - -

Also can we talk calmly w/o resorting to cursing me out?


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## seliph (May 10, 2016)

marinamarina said:


> Omg calm down, I wasn't saying that it's the most important thing. You're taking it really personally and I never said I was oppressed because of makeup I was just responding to you saying that makeup wasn't empowering. To me it is cause it allows me to control my appearance in a creative way and I have struggled w my appearance to the point of an ed (sorry stupid white girl prob  ) are you doing any thing to help those women? I don't watch porn but not all of it comes from sex trafficking?
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> Also can we talk calmly w/o resorting to cursing me out?



Idk if she's cussing you out but it's pretty reasonable to be angry and passionate about the things she's talking about, and I really don't think saying "calm down" is gonna result in anything good.

Also a little on the porn subject, no not all of it comes from sex trafficking but it is a _hugely_ misogynistic industry in itself (just one example of this is how often the actresses don't consent to everything that goes down in a video) and aside from obviously objectifying women it fetishizes things like race, rape, and pedophilia.


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## Gnome (May 10, 2016)

https://youtu.be/qqXi8WmQ_WM 

this song is answer enough


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## marinamarina (May 10, 2016)

nvll said:


> Idk if she's cussing you out but it's pretty reasonable to be angry and passionate about the things she's talking about, and I really don't think saying "calm down" is gonna result in anything good.
> 
> Also a little on the porn subject, no not all of it comes from sex trafficking but it is a _hugely_ misogynistic industry in itself (just one example of this is how often the actresses don't consent to everything that goes down in a video) and aside from obviously objectifying women it fetishizes things like race, rape, and pedophilia.



The thing that upsets me is that I agree with her for the most part all I was trying to say is that I think somehow can say makeup's empowering for them personally. It honestly hurt my feelings a little to be responded to with such hostility. Saying calm down was rude of me and I shouldn't have said that but she was rude as well. It's super important to learn to talk about things that are important to you in a less hostile way otherwise no one will listen. I agree that the most important feminist issues are mostly outside of the west, but she didn't give me a chance to say anything. It's bad for people who are on the same side to be fighting.


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## focus (May 10, 2016)

justice said:


> lol what? you think women in saudi arabia are concerned they can't wear makeup?



ok but who said we can't?


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## marinamarina (May 10, 2016)

focus said:


> ok but who said we can't?



She just said that cause I said women were less likely to wear makeup in places they had few rights (which made her extremely angry)so she used that as an example


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## focus (May 10, 2016)

marinamarina said:


> She just said that cause I said women were less likely to wear makeup in places they had few rights (which made her extremely angry)so she used that as an example



no?? we dont have less rights (other than driving and very few other things)?? and we wear makeup better than most americans do. please educate yourselves yalll

- - - Post Merge - - -

and tbh yall wish the driving things bothers us lol we get paid well we can afford having drivers  and why is makeup a feminist issue let alone AN issue anyway like there are starving children and yall wanna focus on if arab women wear makeup or not like we're good thank u focus on ya own damn problems


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## marinamarina (May 10, 2016)

focus said:


> no?? we dont have less rights (other than driving and very few other things)?? and we wear makeup better than most americans do. please educate yourselves yalll



Yeah she was the one who thought you didn't wear makeup, but I'm sure you guys are great at makeup like you say!


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## Aniko (May 11, 2016)

justice said:


> lol what? you think women in saudi arabia are concerned they can't wear makeup?
> 
> WHY do women feel pressured to wear makeup is the real question. WHY do women feel the need to dress themselves up? why can't we look casual like men? why do we have to put so much effort into maintaining ourselves?
> 
> ...



Wait wait wait...it's not just poor minority girls in struggling countries who are forced in sexual trafficking, there are also human traffic in canada and other first world countries (as someone said). But right, lot of people think it doesn't exist.

- - - Post Merge - - -

I think the worst enemy of women, are other women, haha, why do we always have to ***** each other?


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## Aniko (May 11, 2016)

focus said:


> no?? we dont have less rights (other than driving and very few other things)?? and we wear makeup better than most americans do. please educate yourselves yalll
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> and tbh yall wish the driving things bothers us lol we get paid well we can afford having drivers  and why is makeup a feminist issue let alone AN issue anyway like there are starving children and yall wanna focus on if arab women wear makeup or not like we're good thank u focus on ya own damn problems



Are you from Saudi Arabia? What would you like to change there? 

Personally, I would like people stop telling me that I can't do this or that because I'm a woman, it pisses me off no end, just being called a woman piss me off in fact, I think I prefer being a potato, but I digress. Once (a long time ago) I wanted to work in a supermarket on the night shift, the manager said no because we had to carry boxes of canned food and girls weren't allowed to do that, I was already carrying boxes of canned foods in another supermarket so it wasn't a problem, but no, instead he hired an asthmatic old man, who was smaller and lighter than I was and that could barely stand on his feet. I mean he could just have said that he wanted to give a chance to an old man who was jobless instead of telling me he didn't want to hire girls. Later, I have been refused a job because I didn't want to wear a skirt and high heels, perhaps I would have made some effort if all guys were wearing those, but it wasn't the case.
When I was  a kid, I wanted a pocket knife for by birthday, my mom said "no, it's not for girls"...not even "it's too dangerous"...Then I wanted to sleep in the tent with my cousins of 7-8 yo, again I have been told girls couldn't do that...why? I wanted to do martial arts, mom was against it (I did anyway)...but it was always the same reason, "girls can't do that". I cut my hair, people complain, I don't wear dress or make up, people complain, I swear like a truck driver they complain again  I'm not locked in a cage but it's damn annoying and it must be the same for other persons as well whatever the gender. Who decided of that nonsense?

About make-up, when I was in high school, my music teacher started his class one day by telling us "You know why girls are wearing make-up? It's because they are naturally ugly and it doesn't get better with the years, guys don't be fooled" Oh okay, I'm fine with that XD What a strange thing to say, maybe he was expecting girls to argue back or something, or it was just a joke..I dunno, everybody ignored him and started their lessons.


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## focus (May 11, 2016)

Aniko said:


> Are you from Saudi Arabia? What would you like to change there?



not much. most people here respect women. and this country operated by Sharia Law (which i completely respect) which is why men and women are seperated (men having their own side of a restaurant, etc) but its not like its the end of the world if i have to go through a different door to get my drink at starbucks you know? its also why women cover up. like respect their beliefs even if you dont agree. tbh people make such a big deal out of SA not giving women their rights when actually we do


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## Aniko (May 11, 2016)

focus said:


> not much. most people here respect women. and this country operated by Sharia Law (which i completely respect) which is why men and women are seperated (men having their own side of a restaurant, etc) but its not like its the end of the world if i have to go through a different door to get my drink at starbucks you know? its also why women cover up. like respect their beliefs even if you dont agree. tbh people make such a big deal out of SA not giving women their rights when actually we do



Not much, so what are the little things? I knew a girl from Saudi Arabia who was annoyed that her brother in law had to follow her while shopping, it's how it was in her family, it's not like she disliked him or he prevented her to buy things, but it annoyed her anyway. I'm living in Canada, in a relatively quiet town, so I'm not complaining, I can ride by bike in the woods or in the streets during evenings and apart skunks, nobody bothers me. It's not the case in all the towns and for everybody, but I'm relatively lucky, so far I've never been raped, or beaten, or anything really bad (unlike other people) but there are still tiny things that bother me. Are there tiny things that bother you? If not, that's all right.


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## zoetrope (May 11, 2016)

focus said:


> not much. most people here respect women. and this country operated by Sharia Law (which i completely respect) which is why men and women are seperated (men having their own side of a restaurant, etc) but its not like its the end of the world if i have to go through a different door to get my drink at starbucks you know? its also why women cover up. like respect their beliefs even if you dont agree. tbh people make such a big deal out of SA not giving women their rights when actually we do


Would you consider women in Saudi Arabia to be 'separate but equal?'


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## focus (May 11, 2016)

Aniko said:


> Not much, so what are the little things? I knew a girl from Saudi Arabia who was annoyed that her brother in law had to follow her while shopping, it's how it was in her family, it's not like she disliked him or he prevented her to buy things, but it annoyed her anyway. I'm living in Canada, in a relatively quiet town, so I'm not complaining, I can ride by bike in the woods or in the streets during evenings and apart skunks, nobody bothers me. It's not the case in all the towns and for everybody, but I'm relatively lucky, so far I've never been raped, or beaten, or anything really bad (unlike other people) but there are still tiny things that bother me. Are there tiny things that bother you? If not, that's all right.



well thats how her family is. i go to the mall by myself all the time and nobody tells me sht. and by "some things" i meant like extremists that treat women bad, but we (saudis on twitter) usually turn them into memes and make an ass out of them so its ok

- - - Post Merge - - -



zoetrope said:


> Would you consider women in Saudi Arabia to be 'separate but equal?'



i guess it depends on the family but i bet over half of saudi families would say yes


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## radical6 (May 11, 2016)

marinamarina said:


> Omg calm down, I wasn't saying that it's the most important thing. You're taking it really personally and I never said I was oppressed because of makeup I was just responding to you saying that makeup wasn't empowering. To me it is cause it allows me to control my appearance in a creative way and I have struggled w my appearance to the point of an ed (sorry stupid white girl prob  ) are you doing any thing to help those women? I don't watch porn but not all of it comes from sex trafficking?
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> Also can we talk calmly w/o resorting to cursing me out?



Makeup is not "empowering". Women should not have to wear makeup to feel empowered. 

Yes, I work with victims of sexual abuse and dedicate my time to activism. It is a highly personal subject to me since I can relate to them heavily as a victim of sexual abuse. 

Not all porn is rape, but the thing is you can't tell if that homemade porn video was rape or not. You can't tell if the actress in the video is high or not, because a lot of porn stars are drugged and addicted to drugs. There are many testimonies from ex porn stars about how they were pressured to do things they didn't want. How awful it was for them. How misogynist the male porn stars were.

There is a huge problem in society where thanks to porn, its becoming mainstream to hit and be rough with women. Teenage boys are pressuring their girlfrriends into doing dangerous anal sex. Its always painful for the teenage girls. Yes that is because of porn, its thanks to the rise of anal porn. I have a stud about it.

Porn is degenerate anyway tbh. But just know you have no way of knowing if the porn youre watching is consenual or not.


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## Cory (May 11, 2016)

I don't see why women and men shouldn't be equal.


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## himeki (May 11, 2016)

i am, but im not what you'd call a "radical" femenist


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## gh0st (May 11, 2016)

I would say that yes, I am a feminist because I choose to take small actions in my day to day life to ensure that my experience as a woman is not stereotyped or pigeonholed. But, then again, I live in a very liberal small town in California by the beach and there is a huge LGBTQ and feminist community, so everyone here strives to make the day to day life here different than the poop you see on TV. 

So, I would say that although I do not struggle very much in terms of my casual living, the greater good of all women is what concerns me and makes me continue to strive to be a living example of a confident, independent, creative and non-binary human.


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## Aniko (May 11, 2016)

focus said:


> well thats how her family is. i go to the mall by myself all the time and nobody tells me sht. and by "some things" i meant like extremists that treat women bad, but we (saudis on twitter) usually turn them into memes and make an ass out of them so its ok




I haven't been on Twitter for a while but yes there are some funny meme about extremists of all kind. Would you consider yourself privileged compared to other women in your country including foreign workers? In my country, I see myself as privileged, I don't have to struggle with sexism too much compared to others. In 2015 women in Saudi Arabia were voting for the first time, lot of men were also voting for a first time lol considering elections as not as frequent as in Canada for instance, do you think it's a good thing?

- - - Post Merge - - -



justice said:


> Makeup is not "empowering". Women should not have to wear makeup to feel empowered.
> 
> Yes, I work with victims of sexual abuse and dedicate my time to activism. It is a highly personal subject to me since I can relate to them heavily as a victim of sexual abuse.
> 
> ...



What if it's the case for some? Personally make-up make me feel like a clown or dirty but perhaps that for some it's like war paints. The problem is not feeling good or empowered wearing it, but feeling bad and weak without it. My mom is one of those women who can't go out without make-up, younger she was wearing it even at home, now she's more relaxed, maybe one day she won't wear it anymore but meanwhile I won't make her feel bad about it.


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## focus (May 11, 2016)

Aniko said:


> I haven't been on Twitter for a while but yes there are some funny meme about extremists of all kind. Would you consider yourself privileged compared to other women in your country including foreign workers? In my country, I see myself as privileged, I don't have to struggle with sexism too much compared to others. In 2015 women in Saudi Arabia were voting for the first time, lot of men were also voting for a first time lol considering elections as not as frequent as in Canada for instance, do you think it's a good thing?



hmm i dunno i guess yea a lil bit since i come from a good educated wealthy family? i'd say foreigners are treated w more respect tbh but idk im being very biased here
and about the voting i dont actually know lol i am only a teenager i dont care all too much about politics and elections are veerryy rare :/ monarchy can be good and bad. at least it doesnt split the country in two *cough*presidental candidates*cough*


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## princesse (May 11, 2016)

I'm not a feminist, but I understand their points. I just don't like arguing because I have so little facts to back up my points :/.


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## Aniko (May 11, 2016)

focus said:


> hmm i dunno i guess yea a lil bit since i come from a good educated wealthy family? i'd say foreigners are treated w more respect tbh but idk im being very biased here
> and about the voting i dont actually know lol i am only a teenager i dont care all too much about politics and elections are veerryy rare :/ monarchy can be good and bad. at least it doesnt split the country in two *cough*presidental candidates*cough*



In Canada we like to split in more than two  Thanks for answering me.

------------------------------

Just saw that in the news. It's not a life threatening problem, but it's still a problem, what if you all (guys included) were at her place and couldn't/wouldn't wear high heels because uncomfortable, back pain, foot problems, vertigo or whatever? Is it fair or not? High heels are not like steel-toe boots or any special shoes necessary for a job, it doesn't protect her from injuries.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-36264229?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/129823


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## AnimalCrossingPerson (May 11, 2016)

I laughed at the thread title then thought of Buzzfeed.

Please don't hurt me.


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## Gregriii (May 11, 2016)

wait, I think people is only talking about women's rights. Isnt feminism about equality? Why no one complains about men not able to wear pink clothes or skirts, for example?? And yes I know men don't often get in trouble for those things, but do they have to be ignored bc they are a minory??


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## Celestefey (May 11, 2016)

Gregriii said:


> wait, I think people is only talking about women's rights. Isnt feminism about equality? Why no one complains about men not able to wear pink clothes or skirts, for example?? And yes I know men don't often get in trouble for those things, but do they have to be ignored bc they are a minory??



A lot of feminists talk about that though. Feminists do actually realise how detrimental society can be towards men who engage in typically "feminine" things, like maybe wearing skirts or putting on make-up or whatever. A lot of people do complain that feminists don't care about mens rights, when actually they probably care about them a lot more than "meninists" or "egalitarians" do. They just don't see it, or don't realise it, or don't understand feminism is about equality between all genders regardless of who they are, where they come from, etc.


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## radical6 (May 11, 2016)

focus said:


> hmm i dunno i guess yea a lil bit since i come from a good educated wealthy family? i'd say foreigners are treated w more respect tbh but idk im being very biased here
> and about the voting i dont actually know lol i am only a teenager i dont care all too much about politics and elections are veerryy rare :/ monarchy can be good and bad. at least it doesnt split the country in two *cough*presidental candidates*cough*



When I refer to women in Saudi Arabia suffering, its the poor migrant workers who come to work only to get groped and abused. I donated to a woman who got her arm cut off. I would say Saudi Arabia is at least very behind in worker rights, the maids have no freedom there and can't escape. Considering I have a lesbian friend in Saudi Arabia whos horrified she will get executed, my opinion of the country isnt very high. Not like the west is any better in terms of history, I very much dislike the west, but Saudi Arabia is behind on human rights.


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## Aniko (May 11, 2016)

Gregriii said:


> wait, I think people is only talking about women's rights. Isnt feminism about equality? Why no one complains about men not able to wear pink clothes or skirts, for example?? And yes I know men don't often get in trouble for those things, but do they have to be ignored bc they are a minory??



Yes it's talking about women rights, or problems related mostly to women because perhaps men are not aware of those just like it's not all women that are aware that men also want to wear pink clothes (well they can) and skirts. It would be better that men stand up and claim pink clothes and skirts for themselves instead of waiting for women doing it right? And of course, women could support you in that. Men in skirts are a minority in certain cities, but men forced to wear suits and ties when it's scorching hot in summer are not a minority and they should fight for their rights IMO.  Men have their own problems related to their gender too I guess.


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## That Zephyr Guy (May 11, 2016)

Gregriii said:


> wait, I think people is only talking about women's rights. Isnt feminism about equality? Why no one complains about men not able to wear pink clothes or skirts, for example?? And yes I know men don't often get in trouble for those things, but do they have to be ignored bc they are a minory??




"What about men wearing skirts" 
"What about men wearing makeup"
"How come custody cases show bias towards women than men?"
"How come people make fun of stay at home dads?"
"How come rape cases with men as victims aren't taken seriously?"


That's a list of the most common complain of this category I hear when people talk about women's rights, and that's okay because these are totally justified and understandable complaints.

But look at them carefully and tell me what all of them have in common? I don't wanna make this convoluted or like some sort of quiz so I'll just tell you: all of those things are considered to be typically feminine. Let's go down the list and I'll explain.


Men get made fun of wearing skirts because they're considered women's clothing. Women don't get made fun _nearly_ as much for wearing something traditionally masculine such as a suit, and when they are the people doing so are usually made fun of more.

Men get made fun of for wearing make up for similar reasons, though I can't really think of something that men are expected to wear that would be in equivalence with makeup.

Women are shown to be given more bias in custody cases because men are traditionally seen as lesser parents - meaning that being a caretaker is seen as traditionally feminine, and men should never be feminine ever. (Sarcasm)

A similar line of thought can be applied to stay at home dads. Stay at home moms is a traditionally feminine "ideal", so when it's applied to a man people recoil at it.



And finally, rape cases for men aren't taken as seriously because of a few reasons:
1- Many people believe men LOVE sex. They can't get enough of it. They're like sharks.
Conversely, many people believe that women DESPISE sex. They always try to avoid it. (Insert marriage jokes)

2- The same people have the idea that men are almost always more physically capable than men. They're stronger, faster, etc. 

You can debate the second one all you want, but when these two ideas mix together, then OBVIOUSLY the man wasn't raped, he WANTED to have sex, and how in the world could a woman who DOESN'T force it onto him? And even if it were true HOW could she do it? (Sarcasm)


I went off on a bit of a tangent there, but let me tie it all together with this:

*TL;DR

The reason why I believe it's still called feminism, isn't just because the coin was termed back when the goal was women's suffrage, but because nowadays the idea is to give all genders the opportunity to practice both masculine and feminine roles however they like without either being shunned for it. This goal, however, has to particularly emphasize the feminine aspect, because it's the same feminine aspect that's shunned when it's applied to a man.*

So yes, feminism applies to men just as much as it applies to women.


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## Trundle (May 11, 2016)

I'm more concerned about women's rights in country where they are actually treated badly. Not in North America where "mansplaining" is an "issue" and trigger warnings or safe zones are being taken seriously.


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## seliph (May 11, 2016)

Gregriii said:


> wait, I think people is only talking about women's rights. Isnt feminism about equality? Why no one complains about men not able to wear pink clothes or skirts, for example?? And yes I know men don't often get in trouble for those things, but do they have to be ignored bc they are a minory??



We literally talked about all those things in this thread before

- - - Post Merge - - -



Trundle said:


> I'm more concerned about women's rights in country where they are actually treated badly. Not in North America where "mansplaining" is an "issue" and trigger warnings or safe zones are being taken seriously.



???? What's wrong with trigger warnings though


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## Red Cat (May 11, 2016)

Wow. 23 pages already. Can someone give a short recap?


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## seliph (May 11, 2016)

Red Cat said:


> Wow. 23 pages already. Can someone give a short recap?



Short recap: A lot of people have no idea that feminism deals with gender equality for all, including mens issues, despite it being said in this thread like 1000 times


----------



## focus (May 12, 2016)

justice said:


> When I refer to women in Saudi Arabia suffering, its the poor migrant workers who come to work only to get groped and abused. I donated to a woman who got her arm cut off. I would say Saudi Arabia is at least very behind in worker rights, the maids have no freedom there and can't escape. Considering I have a lesbian friend in Saudi Arabia whos horrified she will get executed, my opinion of the country isnt very high. Not like the west is any better in terms of history, I very much dislike the west, but Saudi Arabia is behind on human rights.



excuse me? maids have all the freedom here. i know because i have never lived without a maid. and neither did anyone else i know. they can't "escape" because we PAY them to stay here and do their work, and we also PAID for their ticket(s) here and there. and you know what? more maids kill children than families kill maids. so if they're living in a good household, doing regular maid things, being treated right and paid well, they have NO rights to run away from the house. please don't speak about SA have little worker rights when you are very misinformed and uneducated about it.
as for the lesbian thing sorry but we can't help it even though most of us reaally would like to help we just don't want to die


- - - Post Merge - - -

and honestly, don't act like SA is the only country where poor migrant working women get sexually assaulted, it happens LITERALLY EVERYWHERE. and i'm pretty sure nobody likes it. just like how nobody likes isis, but that doesn't mean we can just tell them to stop and they'll leave us alone? majority of saudi arabia is PISSED when a video of any form of abuse ever is online. unless you were living under a rock (or just VERY racist), you'd know that


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## Aniko (May 12, 2016)

focus said:


> excuse me? maids have all the freedom here. i know because i have never lived without a maid. and neither did anyone else i know. they can't "escape" because we PAY them to stay here and do their work, and we also PAID for their ticket(s) here and there. and you know what? more maids kill children than families kill maids. so if they're living in a good household, doing regular maid things, being treated right and paid well, they have NO rights to run away from the house. please don't speak about SA have little worker rights when you are very misinformed and uneducated about it.
> as for the lesbian thing sorry but we can't help it even though most of us reaally would like to help we just don't want to die
> 
> 
> ...



Well of course they have the right to run away, it's not like if they were slaves right? And why would they run away if the job is good and they have nothing to complain about? Unless they run away with all your furniture and money. Also I don't get why one would need a maid that could murder children O.O, better not hiring them if they have bad reputation.


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## ZekkoXCX (May 12, 2016)

nvll said:


> Short recap: A lot of people have no idea that feminism deals with gender equality for all, including mens issues, despite it being said in this thread like 1000 times



Even Shorter:

This thread smells like its getting closed soon


----------



## focus (May 12, 2016)

Aniko said:


> Well of course they have the right to run away, it's not like if they were slaves right? And why would they run away if the job is good and they have nothing to complain about? Unless they run away with all your furniture and money. Also I don't get why one would need a maid that could murder children O.O, better not hiring them if they have bad reputation.



no they CANT run away and no theyre NOT slaves. it's basically like as if you were to cut class because "you got enough information already" (except switch information w money and there u go, maids running away.) also we don't hire maids with "bad reputation" honestly i don't think anyone does but some maids are just a little wonky in the head and decide to do some things oh lawd. one time one of our old maids tried to hack into my mom's computer lol she got sent back so fast


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## Katattacc (May 12, 2016)

I'd like to live in a world where all humans are treated with equality and the respect that they personally deserve.


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## Gregriii (May 12, 2016)

Katattacc said:


> I'd like to live in a world where all humans are treated with equality and the respect that they personally deserve.



Sweet but improbable, sorry!


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## tae (May 12, 2016)

I'm down for quality.


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## visibleghost (May 12, 2016)

Gregriii said:


> Sweet but improbable, sorry!



doesnnt mean we shouldnt try to make tht happen tho


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## Stil (May 12, 2016)

No, because feminism equals sexism which is no better than what feminists are "fighting"......


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## visibleghost (May 12, 2016)

Infinity said:


> No, because feminism equals sexism which is no better than what feminists are "fighting"......



um no
pls explain...???


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## Stil (May 12, 2016)

lencurryboy said:


> um no
> pls explain...???



Most feminists I have met are very condescending to males. They claim they want equality because they feel oppressed by the male stereotype when in reality feminists just try to find ways to oppress men. If they truly wanted equality then there would be no need to put a title on there need to feel equal. Everybody is equal and nobody is better than anyone else. Modern day feminist oppression is a way to real problem in this time and I do not agree with it whatsoever.


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## Seroja (May 12, 2016)

Aniko said:


> Well of course they have the right to run away, it's not like if they were slaves right? And why would they run away if the job is good and they have nothing to complain about? Unless they run away with all your furniture and money. Also I don't get why one would need a maid that could murder children O.O, better not hiring them if they have bad reputation.



Oh my oh my. It seems you have a very strong prejudice against a country you've only heard stories of. Let me tell you one thing, some maids are very fickle. There are many reasons why they would want to run that have nothing to do with abuse. Have you ever thought that maids are humans too? They have desires and ideals too. I'm not from Saudi but maids behave the same in my country, they really do love to run away even if we treated them like family. Reasons? They met a guy they want to live with, they don't really like cleaning/taking care of kids, they became a maid to come to our country legally then they run away and live with people from their country and then they sell food at the side of the road or something. My aunt's maid ran away after stole all of my aunt's gold jeweleries. There are many reasons why maids would run away. You just don't understand because you've probably haven't encountered these type of people.

Regarding maids that kill children; Have you ever seen someone and just thought, hmmm this person is a killer, better not have anything to do with them. Is that logical?  Obviously, you hired a maid through agencies. You have no idea what this person truly is like inside. They may be good at cleaning but have severe anger issues or are very impatient with kids. Some of these maids are fresh off the boat, they have no reputation or whatsoever to speak of yet and you are the unlucky one to have been her first employer. Is it right then, to blame the parents? 

Please think about what you're saying and stop being so prejudiced.

Edit:



Infinity said:


> Most feminists I have met are very condescending to males. They claim they want equality because they feel oppressed by the male stereotype when in reality feminists just try to find ways to oppress men. If they truly wanted equality then there would be no need to put a title on there need to feel equal. Everybody is equal and nobody is better than anyone else. Modern day feminist oppression is a way to real problem in this time and I do not agree with it whatsoever.



Do you really feel oppressed by feminists? Please tell us more about it.


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## Stil (May 12, 2016)

Seroja said:


> Oh my oh my. It seems you have a very strong prejudice against a country you've only heard stories of. Let me tell you one thing, some maids are very fickle. There are many reasons why they would want to run that have nothing to do with abuse. Have you ever thought that maids are humans too? They have desires and ideals too. I'm not from Saudi but maids behave the same in my country, they really do love to run away even if we treated them like family. Reasons? They met a guy they want to live with, they don't really like cleaning/taking care of kids, they became a maid to come to our country legally then they run away and live with people from their country and then they sell food at the side of the road or something. My aunt's maid ran away after stole all of my aunt's gold jeweleries. There are many reasons why maids would run away. You just don't understand because you've never encountered these type of people.
> 
> Regarding maids that kill children; Have you ever seen someone and just thought, hmmm this person is a killer, better not have anything to do with them. Is that logical?  Obviously, you hired a maid through agencies. You have no idea what this person truly is like inside. They may be good at cleaning but have severe anger issues or are very impatient with kids. Some of these maids are fresh off the boat, they have no reputation or whatsoever to speak of yet and you are the unlucky one to have been her first employer. Is it right then, to blame the parents?
> 
> ...



Nope. And I never said I did. I just dont think that feminist should feel high and mighty because they are female. Thats like having pride of your nationality which is wrong. You didnt choose to be male or female and you dont choose the color of your skin. If feminists are fighting for equality then they might as well be called equalists.


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## visibleghost (May 12, 2016)

Infinity said:


> Nope. And I never said I did. I just dont think that feminist should feel high and mighty because they are female. Thats like having pride of your nationality which is wrong. You didnt choose to be male or female and you dont choose the color of your skin. If feminists are fighting for equality then they might as well be called equalists.



whats wrong with being proud of who you are
what is bad is shaming other people for what they are


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## Stil (May 12, 2016)

lencurryboy said:


> whats wrong with being proud of who you are
> what is bad is shaming other people for what they are



Its not what kind of life you are given. Its what you do with that life that matters. To me being proud of yourself for your heritage is ridiculous for the fact that you were not given a choice at birth. Example: Being born into a rich family doesn't make you better than anyone else. Sure, it might make you wealthier, but not a better person. Being proud of who you are for the things you have done is a totally different angle. All of this leads back to feminism in the sense that being a feminist doesnt make you equal, it singles females out that choose to act high and mighty over males. feminism does not equal equality. Only equality equals equality.


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## Seroja (May 12, 2016)

Infinity said:


> Nope. And I never said I did. I just dont think that feminist should feel high and mighty because they are female. Thats like having pride of your nationality which is wrong. You didnt choose to be male or female and you dont choose the color of your skin. If feminists are fighting for equality then they might as well be called equalists.



So we can't feel high and mighty for being female but male pride is okay? Oh, okay. Got it.


----------



## Stil (May 12, 2016)

Seroja said:


> So we can't feel high and mighty for being female but male pride is okay? Oh, okay. Got it.



When did male pride ever come into context lol?

- - - Post Merge - - -



Seroja said:


> So we can't feel high and mighty for being female but male pride is okay? Oh, okay. Got it.



You just proved my point. As a feminist you thought I was putting down females. You have become offended and decided to make a shot at making males look bad when in reality, every single thing I have said supports equality.


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## Seroja (May 12, 2016)

Infinity said:


> When did male pride ever come into context lol?
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



Hey man, check your privilege okay?  Btw I don't call myself feminist. As I've said before, I don't care about labels. I just say things that I believe in period.


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## Stil (May 12, 2016)

Seroja said:


> Hey man, check your privilege okay?  Btw I don't call myself feminist. As I've said before, I don't care about labels. I just say things that I believe in period.



Check my privilege? Whats that supposed to mean? I simply posted my opinion and people started questioning my credibility as a person because I don't agree with feminism. I never wanted any drama but apparently people were looking for it.


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## Seroja (May 12, 2016)

Google it and you'll understand where I'm coming from. Hmm maybe I understood wrong but you wrote 'As a feminist, you...'. So I took as it as you calling me a feminist. I understand and I do see some things your way. I apologise if I come off as attacking you. It's just that as a male, you don't understand what its like to be a female and what we face everyday. For me, I don't look for equality because that is not realistic. I am more to being treated fairly. Fairness. We all have different needs and capabilities; nothing in this world is equal. It is impossible for one female to be treated equaly to another female even. But at least treat both with fairness. 

I am sorry for any bad feelings Infinity.


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## Stil (May 12, 2016)

Seroja said:


> Google it and you'll understand where I'm coming from. Hmm maybe I understood wrong but you wrote 'As a feminist, you...'. So I took as it as you calling me a feminist. I understand and I do see some things your way. I apologise if I come off as attacking you. It's just that as a male, you don't understand what its like to be a female and what we face everyday. For me, I don't look for equality because that is not realistic. I am more to being treated fairly. Fairness. We all have different needs and capabilities; nothing in this world is equal. It is impossible for one female to be treated equaly to another female even. But at least treat both with fairness.
> 
> I am sorry for any bad feelings Infinity.



No worries. I am just a very opinionated person and its hard for me to not get my point across to the fullest of my potential. I hope I didn't offend anyone! And I apologize for any irritability I may have caused. Also, I don't have any hard feelings. We are all human and get flustered at times especially when people question your beliefs. The biggest issue occurs when people are too stubborn or simply do not have enough empathy to put themselves into somebody else's shoes. You're right though, sadly I will never know what it is like to be the opposite sex, but what I do know is that trouble comes from both ends and no matter who you are, pain will find its way to all of us.


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## seliph (May 12, 2016)

Infinity said:


> Nope. And I never said I did. I just dont think that feminist should feel high and mighty because they are female. Thats like having pride of your nationality which is wrong. You didnt choose to be male or female and you dont choose the color of your skin. If feminists are fighting for equality then they might as well be called equalists.



When you're part of any group that's been oppressed and have been told to sit down and shut up for so long, you have every damn right to turn that into something to be proud of.
It's not necessarily pride in just existing as a woman, but pride in all the **** women have overcome and achieved, especially when society constantly _to this day_ tells them that they're lesser. The same goes for racial minorities and LGBT+ people.


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## windloft (May 12, 2016)

i guess i'm both an equalist & a feminist. i dunno. i'm a girl, but i want everybody to be equal regardless of who they are and who they identify as, y'know?


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## Honeybun26 (May 12, 2016)

I would say yes I am a feminist. I feel like that word has a certain stigma associated with it though, which bothers me.


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## Ploom (May 12, 2016)

nvll said:


> When you're part of any group that's been oppressed and have been told to sit down and shut up for so long, you have every damn right to turn that into something to be proud of.
> It's not necessarily pride in just existing as a woman, but pride in all the **** women have overcome and achieved, especially when society constantly _to this day_ tells them that they're lesser. The same goes for racial minorities and LGBT+ people.



It's pointless to feel like "yeah, women have been through so much, so that makes me special because I'M a woman." Because unless you yourself have been through some *****, (and even so, everybody has horror stories to tell about their life) it doesn't make sense to pat yourself on the back for what others have experienced. Just my 2 cents. I agree with Infinity, and no, I'm not a boy. Nobody makes me feel bad for being a girl. So no, I'm not a feminist. 

p.s not checking back here again, lol.


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## That Zephyr Guy (May 12, 2016)

Today I learned being a feminist means I am by some people's definitions a sexist white lady


Also lol at people thinking you can't be snarky to sexist behavior. If someone was acting in a way that was demeaning to me, I doubt I'd be very polite to them.


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## Aniko (May 12, 2016)

Seroja said:


> Oh my oh my. It seems you have a very strong prejudice against a country you've only heard stories of. Let me tell you one thing, some maids are very fickle. There are many reasons why they would want to run that have nothing to do with abuse. Have you ever thought that maids are humans too? They have desires and ideals too. I'm not from Saudi but maids behave the same in my country, they really do love to run away even if we treated them like family. Reasons? They met a guy they want to live with, they don't really like cleaning/taking care of kids, they became a maid to come to our country legally then they run away and live with people from their country and then they sell food at the side of the road or something. My aunt's maid ran away after stole all of my aunt's gold jeweleries. There are many reasons why maids would run away. You just don't understand because you've probably haven't encountered these type of people.
> 
> Regarding maids that kill children; Have you ever seen someone and just thought, hmmm this person is a killer, better not have anything to do with them. Is that logical?  Obviously, you hired a maid through agencies. You have no idea what this person truly is like inside. They may be good at cleaning but have severe anger issues or are very impatient with kids. Some of these maids are fresh off the boat, they have no reputation or whatsoever to speak of yet and you are the unlucky one to have been her first employer. Is it right then, to blame the parents?
> 
> Please think about what you're saying and stop being so prejudiced.



Oh no no, I think you misunderstood me, or call is cultural difference or lost in translation. And I will be so prejudiced if I want to ok? 

I was merely reacting to the words "no right". As free human beings we have the right to change our mind and not wanting to do a job anymore, or following a guy, or family. If they run away, they have their reasons right? Whatever the reasons. If they stole from you, you can fill a complain to the police, if they didn't respect their contract you can sue them or the agency, if they don't do their job well, you can fire them. So the right to leave also come with consequences.



> Have you ever thought that maids are humans too?


 No really? Doh! It's just what I am saying. They are humans, they have rights, and among them the right to leave unless they are in prison for some crimes.

Regarding maids that kill children, it's the same thing, it was written that there were more maids that kill children..(...) reading this, make me think that it happened more than twice and that finally maids seem, according to what I'm reading here, to have a bad reputation, and it's sure I wouldn't have one to take care of my children.

Here come the prejudiced part (since you think I'm so prejudiced). Why would you need maids for a start? Even more if they are so unreliable, thieves, lazy and babies killers. The way you describe them if like they were the scum of the society or perhaps I didn't read well or misunderstood you. In my place, very little people have maids, and they just hire them for a few hours per week because they work like 70 hours a week and have no time to clean. I don't know anybody who would keep a maid 24h/24h  7 days a week...Maybe Celine Dion, who knows? Not even disabled persons keep them that long. Here come the prejudiced part: do you really need help to take care of yourself and kids? Especially the help of so fickle maids that can't do their job right?

Question: would you do their job?


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## seliph (May 12, 2016)

Bulbabear said:


> It's pointless to feel like "yeah, women have been through so much, so that makes me special because I'M a woman." Because unless you yourself have been through some *****, (and even so, everybody has horror stories to tell about their life) it doesn't make sense to pat yourself on the back for what others have experienced. Just my 2 cents. I agree with Infinity, and no, I'm not a boy. Nobody makes me feel bad for being a girl. So no, I'm not a feminist.
> 
> p.s not checking back here again, lol.



Completely missed the point lmao. Nowhere did anyone mention "being special because you're a woman".
I'm not saying pat yourself on the back for what others have done before you. I'm saying women can be proud of women _as a whole_ for those achievements. Also that women are still put down by societal expectations, and if they're defying those expectations and doing anything to help burn them down entirely they deserve to be proud.

You don't have to feel bad for being a woman to be a feminist oh my god how many times does someone have to say that feminism is wanting equal rights for everyone? If you don't wanna use the label, fine, but at least know what feminism is first.


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## Aniko (May 12, 2016)

focus said:


> no they CANT run away and no theyre NOT slaves. it's basically like as if you were to cut class because "you got enough information already" (except switch information w money and there u go, maids running away.) also we don't hire maids with "bad reputation" honestly i don't think anyone does but some maids are just a little wonky in the head and decide to do some things oh lawd. one time one of our old maids tried to hack into my mom's computer lol she got sent back so fast



If they are not slaves, they can run away. Too bad for you. Just like I can leave classe in the middle of it. That doesn't mean that they won't be consequence. The teacher may give me a bad grade, or suspend me. All in the way we say things.


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## Brackets (May 12, 2016)

What I hate is how quick some people (especially on the internet) are to judge you if you even mention the word feminist. Sometimes people will be like 'lol go back to your pointless gender studies degree, and you'll never get a boyfriend' and i'm like...? I study medicine and have a great boyfriend but cool thanks


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## Stil (May 12, 2016)

nvll said:


> Completely missed the point lmao. Nowhere did anyone mention "being special because you're a woman".
> I'm not saying pat yourself on the back for what others have done before you. I'm saying women can be proud of women _as a whole_ for those achievements. Also that women are still put down by societal expectations, and if they're defying those expectations and doing anything to help burn them down entirely they deserve to be proud.
> 
> You don't have to feel bad for being a woman to be a feminist oh my god how many times does someone have to say that feminism is wanting equal rights for everyone? If you don't wanna use the label, fine, but at least know what feminism is first.



This is hilarious.
_
 "When you're part of any group that's been oppressed and have been told to sit down and shut up for so long, you have every damn right to turn that into something to be proud of.
It's not necessarily pride in just existing as a woman, but pride in all the **** women have overcome and achieved, especially when society constantly to this day tells them that they're lesser." - nvll_

 This sums up the idea that you think being a female is "empowering". People everyday put up with hardship, not just females. Don't flatter yourself thinking that females are the only ones to overcome obstacles.

By your logic Im responsible for putting a man on the moon because majority of the people were white males.... So I guess I could be proud of that right? Except I don't know the first think about jet propulsion. And in modern day women oppression? Just like racism, if you even come close to offending somebody it becomes a hate crime. Good luck oppressing ANY gender/race without repercussions.


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## focus (May 12, 2016)

Aniko said:


> *If they are not slaves, they can run away.* Too bad for you. Just like I can leave classe in the middle of it. That doesn't mean that they won't be consequence. The teacher may give me a bad grade, or suspend me. All in the way we say things.






i'm not a slave that must mean i can run away from school and never come back ever even though my parents paid a sht ton of money to get me there right? no. that's not how it works bud. if i PAY you to STAY HERE AND DO YA DAMN WORK that means im PAYING you to STAY HERE!!!!!! AND DO YA DAMN WORK!!!! BECAUSE ITS YOUR JOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! do you even know how a maid works like they came here bc its their fckin job to come here and work they chose this not me soOoOoOorry you don't like that i'm paying you money just to make me lunch or clean my room


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## seliph (May 12, 2016)

Infinity said:


> This sums up the idea that you think being a female is "empowering". People everyday put up with hardship, not just females. Don't flatter yourself thinking that females are the only ones to overcome obstacles.


When did I say that? Yall on this site sure do love putting words in my mouth.



Infinity said:


> By your logic Im responsible for putting a man on the moon because majority of the people were white males.... So I guess I could be proud of that right? Except I don't know the first think about jet propulsion.


Men and white people aren't and never were oppressed in the West. Plus I never said you can't be proud to be a man or proud to be white, it's just pointless and empty since white people and men are celebrated pretty much every day. There's a difference between that pride and the pride of oppressed groups.



Infinity said:


> And in modern day women oppression? Just like racism, if you even come close to offending somebody it becomes a hate crime. Good luck oppressing ANY gender/race without repercussions


..._What?_ Where do you live that people actually face legal repercussion for being sexists or racists? And no, people getting rightfully angry at you doesn't count.


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## Stil (May 12, 2016)

nvll said:


> When did I say that? Yall on this site sure do love putting words in my mouth.
> 
> 
> Men and white people aren't and never were oppressed in the West. Plus I never said you can't be proud to be a man or proud to be white, it's just pointless and empty since white people and men are celebrated pretty much every day. There's a difference between that pride and the pride of oppressed groups.
> ...



To answer all of your questions.
1. You didn't say that, you implied it.
2. It doesn't matter if they were oppressed or not, it's an achievement as a whole.
3. I have lived in Chicago most of my life.


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## lostineverfreeforest (May 12, 2016)

Infinity said:


> No, because feminism equals sexism which is no better than what feminists are "fighting"......





Infinity said:


> Most feminists I have met are very condescending to males. They claim they want equality because they feel oppressed by the male stereotype when in reality feminists just try to find ways to oppress men..



Feminazis. There's a difference. They're sexists who claim to believe in equality. A feminist wants rights equal to men, supporting woman's rights to do so. A feminazi wants to take rights from men and/or believe they deserve no rights. They aren't much unlike SJWs.


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## MozzarellaSticks (May 12, 2016)

Yes.


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## That Zephyr Guy (May 12, 2016)

lostineverfreeforest said:


> Feminazis. There's a difference. They're sexists who claim to believe in equality. A feminist wants rights equal to men, supporting woman's rights to do so. A feminazi wants to take rights from men and/or believe they deserve no rights. They aren't much unlike SJWs.



There's literally almost no people like that. That's just a strawman that people who don't like 99% of feminists use to make them all look bad.


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## Stil (May 12, 2016)

lostineverfreeforest said:


> Feminazis. There's a difference. They're sexists who claim to believe in equality. A feminist wants rights equal to men, supporting woman's rights to do so. A feminazi wants to take rights from men and/or believe they deserve no rights. They aren't much unlike SJWs.



Sorry, but even the word feminist is sexist. Maybe there should be a different term?


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## seliph (May 12, 2016)

Infinity said:


> To answer all of your questions.
> 1. You didn't say that, you implied it.
> 2. It doesn't matter if they were oppressed or not, it's an achievement as a whole.
> 3. I have lived in Chicago most of my life.


1. Sometimes words are just words with no implications my guy. Sorry if it was unclear.
2. Sure but as I said, those types of pride are much different. The "pride" that minorities and women feel are actually less of a pride I guess and more of like... a strong, defying, unchanging existence. It's "Yeah I'm here, yeah you hate us, no I'm not going to change for you and you can't make me back down from you". That's why "straight pride", "male pride", and "white pride" aren't things.
3. That makes your "hate crime" claim a load of bull****.



lostineverfreeforest said:


> Feminazis. There's a difference. They're sexists who claim to believe in equality. A feminist wants rights equal to men, supporting woman's rights to do so. A feminazi wants to take rights from men and/or believe they deserve no rights. They aren't much unlike SJWs.


As much as I hate radfems I think comparing them to Nazis is unfair on both ends. In regard to radfems because they never committed mass genocide, and to WWII survivors.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Infinity said:


> Sorry, but even the word feminist is sexist. Maybe there should be a different term?



LOL HOW


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## Stil (May 12, 2016)

nvll said:


> 3. That makes your "hate crime" claim a load of bull****.



Excuse me, but how is that false? I live in one of the most racially diverse cities in America and possibly the world. I think I wold know my own city that I have lived in for 18 years than you would. How many times have you been to Chicago?


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## Seroja (May 12, 2016)

Aniko said:


> Oh no no, I think you misunderstood me, or call is cultural difference or lost in translation. And I will be so prejudiced if I want to ok?
> 
> I was merely reacting to the words "no right". As free human beings we have the right to change our mind and not wanting to do a job anymore, or following a guy, or family. If they run away, they have their reasons right? Whatever the reasons. If they stole from you, you can fill a complain to the police, if they didn't respect their contract you can sue them or the agency, if they don't do their job well, you can fire them. So the right to leave also come with consequences.
> 
> ...



I agree with you, there are cultural differences. Also I shouldn't have written a reply when I feel angry lololol because some words/sentences came off wrong hiuhiu. Anyway yes, as you said, there are cultural differences. Here in my country at least, our currency is very low and everything is imported from overseas with the exchange rate of 1:4- meaning we have to pay 4 times more the price of what the Americans do when our salary is just about the same. Say, for example my monthly salary is $2,500 but a 3DS console is $1,400 here / a 3DS game is $180. That is more than half of my salary. And this goes for a lot of other home necessities too. Cost of living is cutthroat so both parents have to work; some even 2-3 jobs at a time. This is why people need maids to help them around the house or look after their kids. They are called lived-in maids. Food and accommodation are provided. In my family's case their working hours are like office hours. It's just that they live with us. This was when I was still a little child btw. None of my family members have lived-in maids anymore, not since 15 years ago. But yes, if you've seen any South-East Asian dramas, you'll see a lot of lived-in maids~ I called you prejudiced because you have not experienced what it's like living in these countries and yet you have such a strong opinion about it. What you hear is more often than not different than the real thing. Stories you heard from so and so must not be generalized.

I also agree with you that they have rights. My family have helped a lot of maids who ran away from their abusive employees until they have enough money to go back. Even then, my family usually paid for their fare. I am not at all saying that maids are scum of the earth. I am merely telling you the reasons why some maids chose to run away. You said "why run if the job is good" hence my answer. You can have a high paying job at a prestigious company, but if you're not happy, you'll still quit. However, if you quit without notice, there's a penalty. That is against the law. Yes, of course you can report to the police, but will that get your gold back? No. My point was, maids aren't angels, but they aren't scum either. They're just flawed humans, as are the rest of us. Yes, they can run away. And usually, my parents just let them be. Answer to question: I don't. I have a small house (I have my own house now), I can take care of it on the weekends. If I have kids, I'll quit my job and work from home. Agency fees are ridiculous omg.

In terms of maids with bad rep. In the first place, a 'murderer' maid would have gotten caught right? They would have been blacklisted. They wouldn't even be given a chance to work as a maid anymore. I think that is a no brainer. Anyway, killer maids are rare. I think there are more parents who have killed their own children than maids. I'm just saying that, these parents had no idea they hired a mentally ill person. It's unfortunate really. 

Answer: Of course I will if I have no choice. The maids that came to work in our country are from neighbouring countries who are extremely poor. The pay that they earned in my country equals to the pay of what a judge earned in their country. Let that sink in.


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## Seroja (May 12, 2016)

Double post glitch-again. This is annoying.


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## lostineverfreeforest (May 12, 2016)

That Zephyr Guy said:


> There's literally almost no people like that. That's just a strawman that people who don't like 99% of feminists use to make them all look bad.



I didn't say the majority of feminists are like that. This kind of feminist does exist, a radical feminist as nvll calls them. I prefer the term feminazi though.

Edit: Here's my stance I posted earlier in the thread:


lostineverfreeforest said:


> Feminism in the sense that women should be entitled to equal rights, equal opportunity, and equal treatment? If that makes me a feminist, sure. Biology doesn't need to dictate everything, if you can perform as well as somebody else why should you be denied the same opportunity?



Sounds like somebody who supports the idea of feminism to me.


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## seliph (May 12, 2016)

Infinity said:


> Excuse me, but how is that false? I live in one of the most racially diverse cities in America and possibly the world. I think I wold know my own city that I have lived in for 18 years than you would. How many times have you been to Chicago?



Do people get arrested and thrown in jail for saying "Black people are thugs", "Brown people are terrorists", or "Mexicans are all illegal drug cartels" there? No, especially considering just how racist Chicago's police force is. So where are the people facing "hate crime" charges for offending people? Where?
And I go there every year funny enough.


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## Stil (May 12, 2016)

nvll said:


> Do people get arrested and thrown in jail for saying "Black people are thugs", "Brown people are terrorists", or "Mexicans are all illegal drug cartels" there? No, especially considering just how racist Chicago's police force is. So where are the people facing "hate crime" charges for offending people? Where?
> And I go there every year funny enough.



Racism happens wherever you go and cannot be judged based on one incident with a police officer. Most police officers are told to profile and are also on steroids which is very wrong. Police brutality is a totally different subject. The problem is the people that claim somebody else is racist. I cant tell you how many times I have seen an african american walk into a store and have an issue with something and when a problem cant be resolved they claim that its because the other person is racist. Im about to go to work, if you want to continue this conversation please pm me tonight. I will be back in about 9 hours.


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## Celestefey (May 12, 2016)

That Zephyr Guy said:


> There's literally almost no people like that. That's just a strawman that people who don't like 99% of feminists use to make them all look bad.



Or people who do act like that are trolls laughing at the people who take them seriously.


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## Aniko (May 12, 2016)

Seroja said:


> I agree with you, there are cultural differences. Also I shouldn't have written a reply when I feel angry lololol because some words/sentences came off wrong hiuhiu. Anyway yes, as you said, there are cultural differences. Here in my country at least, our currency is very low and everything is imported from overseas with the exchange rate of 1:4- meaning we have to pay 4 times more the price of what the Americans do when our salary is just about the same. Say, for example my monthly salary is $2,500 but a 3DS console is $1,400 here / a 3DS game is $180. That is more than half of my salary. And this goes for a lot of other home necessities too. Cost of living is cutthroat so both parents have to work; some even 2-3 jobs at a time. This is why people need maids to help them around the house or look after their kids. They are called lived-in maids. Food and accommodation are provided. In my family's case their working hours are like office hours. It's just that they live with us. This was when I was still a little child btw. None of my family members have lived-in maids anymore, not since 15 years ago. But yes, if you've seen any South-East Asian dramas, you'll see a lot of lived-in maids~ I called you prejudiced because you have not experienced what it's like living in these countries and yet you have such a strong opinion about it. What you hear is more often than not different than the real thing. Stories you heard from so and so must not be generalized.
> 
> I also agree with you that they have rights. My family have helped a lot of maids who ran away from their abusive employees until they have enough money to go back. Even then, my family usually paid for their fare. I am not at all saying that maids are scum of the earth. I am merely telling you the reasons why some maids chose to run away. You said "why run if the job is good" hence my answer. You can have a high paying job at a prestigious company, but if you're not happy, you'll still quit. However, if you quit without notice, there's a penalty. That is against the law. Yes, of course you can report to the police, but will that get your gold back? No. My point was, maids aren't angels, but they aren't scum either. They're just flawed humans, as are the rest of us. Yes, they can run away. And usually, my parents just let them be. Answer to question: I don't. I have a small house (I have my own house now), I can take care of it on the weekends. If I have kids, I'll quit my job and work from home. Agency fees are ridiculous omg.
> 
> ...



That's a good explanation, but I also think that you misunderstood my first reply or mixed it with the previous poster, because there was not much opinion in what I posted beside debating the use of the words "no right" when the person probably wanted to mean "responsibilities". There was nothing in that post about the country in question.

Focus replied to another poster: _so if they're living in a good household, doing regular maid things, being treated right and paid well, they have NO rights to run away from the house. _ and _and you know what? more maids kill children than families kill maids. _

I said _Well of course they have the right to run away, it's not like if they were slaves right? And why would they run away if the job is good and they have nothing to complain about? Unless they run away with all your furniture and money. Also I don't get why one would need a maid that could murder children O.O, better not hiring them if they have bad reputation._

"why run if the job is good" Right, why? Because they have their reasons, they a not satisfied with something or just wanted to run away with your things. 

In fact it was just a post on the used of some words and how it was said. Same here, you can't trust all maids or babysitters (or anybody in fact). 

"Of course I will if I have no choice." means in my opinion that it's not the best job in the world but good enough to quit your family for it. Perhaps those who accepted the job first, didn't realize all responsibilities and inconvenients that come with it.


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## Aali (May 12, 2016)

No I am not. I know some people think it's a disgrace to be a female and not being a feminist, but I think everyone should have equal rights


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## silicalia (May 12, 2016)

I feel many people just decide that feminism is one sided because of the 'fem'. But the literal definition of feminism is "the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes." 
It's called FEMinism because on a general consensus -- women are not seen as equal to men, not the other way around.
BUT, thats all I'm saying on the topic because I'm not going to get into this on an ac forum. ALSO not trying to bash anyone. I know people have their own views etc.


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## ams (May 12, 2016)

Aali said:


> No I am not. I know some people think it's a disgrace to be a female and not being a feminist, but I think everyone should have equal rights



...?


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## seliph (May 12, 2016)

Just Don't Reply.jpg

On another note I'm laughing like on every 2nd page there's someone going "IM NOT A FEMINIST BECAUSE I BELIEVE IN EQUAL RIGHTS" like bruh that's literally what feminism is wyd


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## Tessie (May 12, 2016)

Yup, a big one


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## radical6 (May 12, 2016)

focus said:


> excuse me? maids have all the freedom here. i know because i have never lived without a maid. and neither did anyone else i know. they can't "escape" because we PAY them to stay here and do their work, and we also PAID for their ticket(s) here and there. and you know what? more maids kill children than families kill maids. so if they're living in a good household, doing regular maid things, being treated right and paid well, they have NO rights to run away from the house. please don't speak about SA have little worker rights when you are very misinformed and uneducated about it.
> as for the lesbian thing sorry but we can't help it even though most of us reaally would like to help we just don't want to die
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, but a lot of poor migrants go to Qatar or SA for work since these nations are wealthy. I don't deny you probably have seen maids being treated nice there, but until I stop seeing stories about random maids getting raped by Saudi Arabian diplomats, my opinion of your country is going to be low. It's a shame the highest (the rich) are abusing women and getting away with it, and the fact so your government allows that is sad. I'm not saying Saudi Arabians are bad, but your rulers are very corrupt. I understand you have a feeling of patriotism for your country, but there are definitely problems with social issues in Saudi Arabia and there's no good way to paint executing gays as something "oh, we can't help it.". I would never travel there for my own safety as well, sorry not sorry but I'm not going to like a country that would execute me for being who I am.


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## Aloha (May 12, 2016)

DarkDesertFox said:


> I'm all for women's rights, but I don't identify as a feminist because quite frankly I've seen some negative representation of the term.



This


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## focus (May 12, 2016)

justice said:


> Yes, but a lot of poor migrants go to Qatar or SA for work since these nations are wealthy. I don't deny you probably have seen maids being treated nice there, *but until I stop seeing stories about random maids getting raped by Saudi Arabian diplomats, my opinion of your country is going to be low. It's a shame the highest (the rich) are abusing women and getting away with it, and the fact so your government allows that is sad.* I'm not saying Saudi Arabians are bad, but your rulers are very corrupt. I understand you have a feeling of patriotism for your country, but there are definitely problems with social issues in Saudi Arabia and there's no good way to paint executing gays as something "oh, we can't help it.". I would never travel there for my own safety as well, sorry not sorry but I'm not going to like a country that would execute me for being who I am.









you know why the government doesn't do anything about it? because they're stories. STORIES. no proof, just bullsht. the government doesn't allow rape, if that's what you mean? you can't even see a muslim woman unless you're their Mahram (a cousin, or something close idk how to explain it in english sorry) or your wife, let alone have sex with them. (you can't have sex with anyone but your husband/wife.) please, you've never even been here so please don't act like our rulers and fcking Hitler reincarnations or as bad as Kim Jong Un. i've lived here my WHOLE. ENTIRE. LIFE. i'm preetttyy sure i know what i'm talking about.
as for the gay executions i agree that shouldn't happen but put yourself in my shoes pleeeeaaaaaaassseeeee i can't do anything about it i really truthfully can't. like lets say your white (which i assume you are because of how you talk about SA. let's face it, most whites despise us lol) and i'm treating you like you're the scum of this world because you're not doing anything about KKK or Donald Trump even though you can't help it. pretty shtty right? yeah.


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## ams (May 13, 2016)

Infinity said:


> Sorry, but even the word feminist is sexist. Maybe there should be a different term?



That's like saying "gay rights" is a heterophobic term because it has the word "gay" in it. Cool down.


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## KaydeeKrunk (May 13, 2016)

Yes, but not in the form that is a meme. I just believe everyone is equal, but at the same time I wish my boyfriend could make more money so I could be a housewife, and I don't vote.


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## Seroja (May 13, 2016)

focus said:


> you know why the government doesn't do anything about it? because they're stories. STORIES. no proof, just bullsht. the government doesn't allow rape, if that's what you mean? you can't even see a muslim woman unless you're their Mahram (a cousin, or something close idk how to explain it in english sorry) or your wife, let alone have sex with them. (you can't have sex with anyone but your husband/wife.) please, you've never even been here so please don't act like our rulers and fcking Hitler reincarnations or as bad as Kim Jong Un. i've lived here my WHOLE. ENTIRE. LIFE. i'm preetttyy sure i know what i'm talking about.
> as for the gay executions i agree that shouldn't happen but put yourself in my shoes pleeeeaaaaaaassseeeee i can't do anything about it i really truthfully can't. like lets say your white (which i assume you are because of how you talk about SA. let's face it, most whites despise us lol) and i'm treating you like you're the scum of this world because you're not doing anything about KKK or Donald Trump even though you can't help it. pretty shtty right? yeah.



A mahram is someone of the opposite sex who is blood related to you/someone you can't marry (I.e: siblings, parents, step-parents etc). Muslim females don't have to cover themselves when with their mahram. Opposite sex cousin isn't mahram.

@justice
Corrupted people in power who abuse their influence/power to cover up their perverseness are not exclusive to the Saudi Arabians smh don't be biased. Please try not to judge a country you've never been to.


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## focus (May 13, 2016)

Seroja said:


> A mahram is someone of the opposite sex who is blood related to you/someone you can't marry (I.e: siblings, parents, step-parents etc). Muslim females don't have to cover themselves when with their mahram. Opposite sex cousin isn't mahram.
> 
> @justice
> Corrupted people in power who abuse their influence/power to cover up their perverseness are not exclusive to the Saudi Arabians smh don't be biased. Please try not to judge a country you've never been to.



thanks i couldnt word it lol i suck at english


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## visibleghost (May 13, 2016)

KaydeeKrunk said:


> Yes, but not in the form that is a meme. I just believe everyone is equal, but at the same time I wish my boyfriend could make more money so I could be a housewife, and I don't vote.



sorry for asking, but im jsut curious
why do you not vote?


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## KaydeeKrunk (May 13, 2016)

lencurryboy said:


> sorry for asking, but im jsut curious
> why do you not vote?



because I don't drive and can't get anywhere to vote, I also work graveshift and I am rarely even up when voting is open


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## MozzarellaSticks (May 13, 2016)

KaydeeKrunk said:


> because I don't drive and can't get anywhere to vote, I also work graveshift and I am rarely even up when voting is open


Polls open at 6 to 8, depending not on your state. It's 7 am for Californida. You could go after work. There are also TONS of free ride services for people looking for a ride to their polling place.


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## radical6 (May 13, 2016)

focus said:


> you know why the government doesn't do anything about it? because they're stories. STORIES. no proof, just bullsht. the government doesn't allow rape, if that's what you mean? you can't even see a muslim woman unless you're their Mahram (a cousin, or something close idk how to explain it in english sorry) or your wife, let alone have sex with them. (you can't have sex with anyone but your husband/wife.) please, you've never even been here so please don't act like our rulers and fcking Hitler reincarnations or as bad as Kim Jong Un. i've lived here my WHOLE. ENTIRE. LIFE. i'm preetttyy sure i know what i'm talking about.
> as for the gay executions i agree that shouldn't happen but put yourself in my shoes pleeeeaaaaaaassseeeee i can't do anything about it i really truthfully can't. like lets say your white (which i assume you are because of how you talk about SA. let's face it, most whites despise us lol) and i'm treating you like you're the scum of this world because you're not doing anything about KKK or Donald Trump even though you can't help it. pretty shtty right? yeah.



nope, im vietnamese

and im fairly active in activism, as i said, i attend blm protests

im not going to like a country that literally would execute me, fair and simple. i dont care how hard you try to spin SA as a good country, im going to trust my friend who is literally a lesbian living there over someone who as you said, is rich and privileged. you won't see the bad things going on in your country because you are literally wealthy. the sa feminists i know there tell me they get deah threats for daring to drive alone. SA is not a feminist or equal country, and im going to trust the women living in danger there.


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## focus (May 13, 2016)

justice said:


> nope, im vietnamese
> 
> and im fairly active in activism, as i said, i attend blm protests
> 
> im not going to like a country that literally would execute me, fair and simple. i dont care how hard you try to spin SA as a good country, im going to trust my friend who is literally a lesbian living there over someone who as you said, is rich and privileged. you won't see the bad things going on in your country because you are literally wealthy. *the sa feminists i know there tell me they get deah threats for daring to drive alone. *SA is not a feminist or equal country, and im going to trust the women living in danger there.



looooooool WOMEN CANT EVEN DRIVE HERE just proves what a mess this is
every story has 2 sides and i'm not lying when i say this i go with my driver alone and nobody bats and eye sweety. this has NOTHING to do w being wealthy, fyi. and i dont not get raped because im wealthy or not a foreigner, its because its LITERALLY ILLEGAL to even TOUCH ME if you're not my mahram


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## radical6 (May 13, 2016)

focus said:


> looooooool WOMEN CANT EVEN DRIVE HERE just proves what a mess this is
> every story has 2 sides and i'm not lying when i say this i go with my driver alone and nobody bats and eye sweety. this has NOTHING to do w being wealthy, fyi. and i dont not get raped because im wealthy or not a foreigner, its because its LITERALLY ILLEGAL to even TOUCH ME if you're not my mahram



what? no theyre trying to make a point about how women should be allowed to drive alone. but you obviously said you dont care about politics as you said so yourself, so what are you even doing again? saudi arabian feminists are the most bravest women i know for trying to take off their hijab and campaigning for equal rights. women should not have to drive with a man or evenhave someone drive for them - it makes no sense. which brings me back to the main point, feminists in your country are campaigning for the most basic of rights that women in other countries already have.


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## focus (May 13, 2016)

justice said:


> what? no theyre trying to make a point about how women should be allowed to drive alone. but you obviously said you dont care about politics as you said so yourself, so what are you even doing again? saudi arabian feminists are the most bravest women i know for trying to take off their hijab and campaigning for equal rights. women should not have to drive with a man or evenhave someone drive for them - it makes no sense. which brings me back to the main point, feminists in your country are campaigning for the most basic of rights that women in other countries already have.



and may i ask if these SA feminists are muslim?

- - - Post Merge - - -

it boggles my mind how u think us not driving is such a big deal LITERALLY NOBODY CARES just get a driver. drivers are a luxury anyway i dont see why ur making such a big deal. if she wanna drive that bad she can go to the desert and knock herself out


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## radical6 (May 13, 2016)

focus said:


> and may i ask if these SA feminists are muslim?
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> it boggles my mind how u think us not driving is such a big deal LITERALLY NOBODY CARES just get a driver. drivers are a luxury anyway i dont see why ur making such a big deal. if she wanna drive that bad she can go to the desert and knock herself out



yes theyre muslim, but some are those who are the type that dont want to wear the hijab. some are not muslim at all.

i dont think you realize how being able to walk alone without a man, being able to drive without a man is a very simple concept that is important to daily living. women should not have to have an escort just to drive. women are equal to men yet cannot walk in public without a man, cannot drive without a man, and you're not asking why? why do women need to be babied so badly? what makes women so different from men that they cant be allowed to walk or do anything by themselves? 

and if drivers are a luxury, that brings me back to my point again... what about poor women who cant afford a driver but need to get to work? are they gonna walk? or are they gonna stay home being a housewife

you're obviously blinded by your patriotism for your country, so its useless trying to argue with you. at least i see your reputation has been proven true to me.


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## focus (May 13, 2016)

justice said:


> yes theyre muslim, but some are those who are the type that dont want to wear the hijab. some are not muslim at all.
> 
> i dont think you realize how being able to walk alone without a man, being able to drive without a man is a very simple concept that is important to daily living. women should not have to have an escort just to drive. women are equal to men yet cannot walk in public without a man, cannot drive without a man, and you're not asking why? why do women need to be babied so badly? what makes women so different from men that they cant be allowed to walk or do anything by themselves?
> 
> ...



if they're muslims trying to take off their hijab, they're sht feminists. if they were born in and living in a muslim country trying to take off their hijab, they're sht feminists. that's islam for you. hijab is not a form of oppression one bit. and by the way, we can walk alone. also about the poor women have u ever heard of taxis they're a real thing
lol please tell me what exactly my "reputation" is? i haven't even been on here for a year and i already got a "reputation" lmao newsflash yall dont know me


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## Tao (May 13, 2016)

focus said:


> and by the way, we can walk alone. also about the poor women have u ever heard of taxis they're a real thing



Whilst you might not have a problem with getting a driver, I don't see how you don't think not being allowed to drive by yourself isn't bull*****. It might not bother you personally that you can't, but I don't see how you can ignore and even defend the obvious restriction of freedom by simply being told "no, you *can't* do this without assistance or supervision because you have a snooch".

I mean, especially with stupid defenses such as this:



focus said:


> i dont see why ur making such a big deal. if she wanna drive that bad she can go to the desert and knock herself out



So could a child. I could take my little brother out to a private plot of land whilst just drives around a field in a circle, but that's not the same as thinking "hmm, I think I'll drive down to the zoo today" and just getting in your car and doing it without having to ring taxi's or inform your driver beforehand...You know, the actual reasons people get a car.

To reiterate since you seem to be missing what's being said on this subject: nobody is saying these women can't get taxi's or a driver or that you know people who aren't bothered by having to get taxi's and drivers (that small focus group obviously factually speaking for the entire country), what's being said is that it's wrong that you don't even have the choice to do it yourself.


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