# Do you believe in miracles?



## Soda Fox (May 31, 2015)

This can mean a broad spectrum of things.  I've heard many times people calling childbirth and successful medical recoveries miracles, but I think both those things, and more, can be explained scientifically, and discounted from being considered a miracle.  I also think that things that can't be explained right now, which could be considered possible miracles, will someday be understood and similarly discounted from the term (the miracle of consciousness, for example)

But what do you think?  Will there always be things that are beyond our understanding?  Will there always be miracles?  I suppose it's possible - if there's an infinite number of things for us to understand, it will literally be impossible for us to ever explain them all.  But, I think that we can pursue our knowledge, and find the method to any miracles we find, and continue the cycle of discovery and understanding for as long as we choose to search for it.


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## Bradski (May 31, 2015)

Jesus has done and still does miracles (through us) and I guarantee you nobody can explain the miracle of Jesus conquering death when he rose from the dead. So yes there will be miracles until the end of time


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## piichinu (May 31, 2015)

hmm...no, and yes, i'm catholic. like you said, i feel like most things can be scientifically explained, and other things happen because something you or someone else did caused them - not the intervention of a divine force


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## DarkDesertFox (May 31, 2015)

I believe God performs miracles. There have been quite a few that have occurred in my family. One happened recently with my cousin's child. She decided to have her daughter at home with a midwife instead of a hospital and because of that there were extreme problems with the child breathing and the daughter had to be rushed to the hospital. She was able to be saved at that hospital and I truly believe that was a miracle.


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## uncaballero1 (May 31, 2015)

Yes, I feel it's pretentious to claim otherwise.


At some point I guarantee something has happened that is beyond scientific explanation.


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## Brackets (May 31, 2015)

Nope. a miracle means either something happened that was very lucky, or is something we can't understand or explain yet.


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## Jamborenium (May 31, 2015)

Where you from you sexy thing?


But anyways no I don't


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## Nay (May 31, 2015)

no at least no miracle of any conesequence bc if they existed, and if ""god"" existed idk why the world is not a better place


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## Ashtot (May 31, 2015)

audino said:


> no at least no miracle of any conesequence bc if they existed, and if ""god"" existed idk why the world is not a better place



lol that argument is so bad why do people still bring this up

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anyways ive seen miracles so im either completely ******** and mentally ill or they happen


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## Nay (May 31, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> lol that argument is so bad why do people still bring this up
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> anyways ive seen miracles so im either completely ******** and mentally ill or they happen



thanks for explaining urself also any miracle that happened near you is prolly inconsequencial


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## Yukari Yakumo (May 31, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> lol that argument is so bad why do people still bring this up


define bad before you call something bad.

back on topic, no, not in the metaphysical sense anyway.  and just because something is beyond our understanding, doesn't mean it has a supernatural source(which many, many, many people like to conclude).  We have puny human brains.  There's a distinct possibility that there are things we will never be able to wrap our tiny heads around.


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## Ashtot (May 31, 2015)

audino said:


> thanks for explaining urself also any miracle that happened near you is prolly inconsequencial



lol

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Yukari Yakumo said:


> define bad before you call something bad.
> 
> back on topic, no, not in the metaphysical sense anyway.  and just because something is beyond our understanding, doesn't mean it has a supernatural source(which many, many, many people like to conclude).  We have puny human brains.  There's a distinct possibility that there are things we will never be able to wrap our tiny heads around.



the argument doesnt make any sense


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## Zane (May 31, 2015)

every day is a miracle ヽ(￣～￣　)ノ


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## Hyoshido (May 31, 2015)

Miracles would've saved my deceased parent


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## Ashtot (May 31, 2015)

Hyogo said:


> Miracles would've saved my deceased parent



lets eliminate free will and consequence of action that makes sense


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## Yukari Yakumo (May 31, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> the argument doesnt make any sense


Thank you for that in depth explanation.  I am now absolutely certain you are right.


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## Ashtot (May 31, 2015)

Yukari Yakumo said:


> Thank you for that in depth explanation.  I am now absolutely certain you are right.



the argument that if god exists then the world would be some great place doesnt make any sense because of tons of reasons

and thats only 3

1. who said a god exists to make everyone's lives perfect?

2. if a god intervened in every aspect of  everyone's life than free will wouldn't exist

3. if a god intervened in every aspect of everyone's life then nobody would be held accountable for any action


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## Hyoshido (May 31, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> lets eliminate free will and consequence of action that makes sense


ok why not


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## ReXyx3 (May 31, 2015)

I don't believe in miracles, there is always a reason to why something happens. People just don't understand how to figure everything out, so when something happens that they can't explian they automatically think that it's a "miracle".


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## Ashtot (May 31, 2015)

ReXyx3 said:


> I don't believe in miracles, there is always a reason to why something happens. People just don't know how to figure everything out, so when something happens that they can't explian they automatically think that it's a "miracle".



ur right if something is unexplained we should call it a boring term like unexplained instead of miracle because otherwise ppl will riot because they think the word miracle has to do with supernatural and OMG DID U SAY SUPERNATURAL U MUST DIE!!!! WHAT A ****** HE THINKS THAT THERE IS SUPERNATURAL LOLLLLL THATS IMPOSSBLE I KNOW BECUZ I GGOGLED IT


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## Nay (May 31, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> the argument that if god exists then the world would be some great place doesnt make any sense because of tons of reasons
> 
> and thats only 3
> 
> ...



it doesnt matter whether a god ""actually"" exists, if they have no real impact then i fail to see how they exist in human society at all

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Ashtot said:


> ur right if something is unexplained we should call it a boring term like unexplained instead of miracle because otherwise ppl will riot because they think the word miracle has to do with supernatural and OMG DID U SAY SUPERNATURAL U MUST DIE!!!! WHAT A ****** HE THINKS THAT THERE IS SUPERNATURAL LOLLLLL THATS IMPOSSBLE I KNOW BECUZ I GGOGLED IT



can you be quiet with your incessant chatter? stay on topic or get out


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## Ashtot (May 31, 2015)

audino said:


> it doesnt matter whether a god ""actually"" exists, if they have no real impact then i fail to see how they exist in human society at all
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



why do you think a god would need to have impact on every single thing to have an impact at all

i dont understand ur logic

its like ur saying "if there is a god i would have an amazing life so i know there isnt one"


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## Nay (May 31, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> why do you think a god would need to have impact on every single thing to have an impact at all
> 
> i dont understand ur logic
> 
> its like ur saying "if there is a god i would have an amazing life so i know there isnt one"



yea bc to me that's the only god worth acknowledging lol

any other god i dont even care if they exist


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## Ashtot (May 31, 2015)

audino said:


> yea bc to me that's the only god worth acknowledging lol
> 
> any other god i dont even care if they exist



typical entitled first world teenager

regardless of whether you care or acknowledge it doesnt determine whether a god exists or not


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## ReXyx3 (May 31, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> ur right if something is unexplained we should call it a boring term like unexplained instead of miracle because otherwise ppl will riot because they think the word miracle has to do with supernatural and OMG DID U SAY SUPERNATURAL U MUST DIE!!!! WHAT A ****** HE THINKS THAT THERE IS SUPERNATURAL LOLLLLL THATS IMPOSSBLE I KNOW BECUZ I GGOGLED IT



This has nothing to do with religion or anything supernatural, it is just my opinion. I happen to believe in science and if you don't then it's totally okay, you don't have to react like that everytime someone thinks differently than you. Just agree to disagree and be done with it.


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## Brackets (May 31, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> ur right if something is unexplained we should call it a boring term like unexplained instead of miracle because otherwise ppl will riot because they think the word miracle has to do with supernatural and OMG DID U SAY SUPERNATURAL U MUST DIE!!!! WHAT A ****** HE THINKS THAT THERE IS SUPERNATURAL LOLLLLL THATS IMPOSSBLE I KNOW BECUZ I GGOGLED IT



like why are you so angry that people have different opinions to you


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## Hyoshido (May 31, 2015)

When Ashtot stops posting, maybe the world will take a turn and miracles will actually start to happen.

But that's not going to happen, is it?


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## Nay (May 31, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> typical entitled first world teenager
> 
> regardless of whether you care or acknowledge it doesnt determine whether a god exists or not



fine i can acknowledge that. aside from religious things though i really dont think miracles exist outside of anything that can be scientifically explained


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## Soda Fox (May 31, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> anyways ive seen miracles so im either completely ******** and mentally ill or they happen



I want to say that I don't find people who believe in miracles to be ******** or mentally ill in the slightest.  And in response to the poster about their cousin's child; as I said initially, I think a miracle is just something we don't really understand yet.  It may be a miracle to your and your family that the child survived, but I think to the good doctors and nurses at the hospital that kept her alive knew what they were doing and this wasn't so much a miracle to them as it was a successful execution of their medical knowledge.


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## Ashtot (May 31, 2015)

ReXyx3 said:


> This has nothing to do with religion or anything supernatural, it is just my opinion. I happen to believe in science and if you don't then it's totally okay, you don't have to react like that everytime someone thinks differently than you. Just agree to disagree and be done with it.



i believe in science i was just stating that if anything supernatural is talked about, at least in a positive way, its immediately shutdown and that person is treated like a ****** for no reason

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Soda Fox said:


> I want to say that I don't find people who believe in miracles to be ******** or mentally ill in the slightest.  And in response to the poster about their cousin's child; as I said initially, I think a miracle is just something we don't really understand yet.  It may be a miracle to your and your family that the child survived, but I think to the good doctors and nurses at the hospital that kept her alive knew what they were doing and this wasn't so much a miracle to them as it was a successful execution of their medical knowledge.



u just contradicted yourself by disregarding what a person said

I mean u arent outright saying you think he/she is stupid but you're throwing whatever they believe out the window as if it is nothing


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## DarkDesertFox (May 31, 2015)

Does there always need to be an argument in these threads? 



Soda Fox said:


> I want to say that I don't find people who believe in miracles to be ******** or mentally ill in the slightest.  And in response to the poster about their cousin's child; as I said initially, I think a miracle is just something we don't really understand yet.  It may be a miracle to your and your family that the child survived, but I think to the good doctors and nurses at the hospital that kept her alive knew what they were doing and this wasn't so much a miracle to them as it was a successful execution of their medical knowledge.



My main point to that though is she could have died before she made it to that hospital. She already struggled with breathing and I believe God answered our family's prayers to help her hold on until they got there. Of course, people are free to believe what they want.


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## Hyoshido (May 31, 2015)

DarkDesertFox said:


> Does there always need to be an argument in these threads?


It's a fact, any time religion is mentioned in a thread, people always ALWAYS argue.


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## Nay (May 31, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> I mean u arent outright saying you think he/she is stupid but you're throwing whatever they believe out the window as if it is nothing



is that what you think ppl are doing when they disagree ?


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## Ashtot (May 31, 2015)

audino said:


> is that what you think ppl are doing when they disagree ?



no its just that any religious person is automatically hated unless ur a satanist these days

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Ashtot said:


> no its just that any religious person is automatically hated unless ur a satanist these days



sorry i forgot pastafarian


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## Improv (May 31, 2015)

it's a miracle i'm still alive 

so yes


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## Kaiaa (May 31, 2015)

People are free to believe in what they wish. It's nice to share your beliefs but there are some people who always make it an argument instead of a discussion. However, let's try not to confuse peoples opinions for arguments, just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are intending to start an argument nor does it mean you need to attack them. Sarcasm doesn't help either.

If you wish for this thread to continue being open and don't wish to receive a warning, I expect you to discuss respectfully or don't post at all.


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## ReXyx3 (May 31, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> i believe in science i was just stating that if anything supernatural is talked about, at least in a positive way, its immediately shutdown and that person is treated like a ****** for no reason



Right but my post had nothing to do with yours and yet you still came after me. I was just stating an opinion and you immediately shut it down. You're contradicting yourself, I hadn't treated you like that at all and yet that's exactly how you treated me. I respect everyone's  beliefs and I'm confident in my own that I dont need to argue whether it's right or not because I could honestly care less.


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## Ashtot (May 31, 2015)

Kaiaa said:


> People are free to believe in what they wish. It's nice to share your beliefs but there are some people who always make it an argument instead of a discussion. However, let's try not to confuse peoples opinions for arguments, just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are intending to start an argument nor does it mean you need to attack them. Sarcasm doesn't help either.
> 
> If you wish for this thread to continue being open and don't wish to receive a warning, I expect you to discuss respectfully or don't post at all.



very well said, i respect everyone opinion even if it is wrong

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ReXyx3 said:


> Right but my post had nothing to do with yours and yet you still came after me. I was just stating an opinion and you immediately shut it down. You're contradicting yourself, I hadn't treated you like that at all and yet that's exactly how you treated me. I respect everyone's  beliefs and I'm confident in my own that I dont need to argue whether it's right or not because I could honestly care less.



this is a thread of opinions and u posted ur so u do care

and i wasnt coming after u and im not contradicting  myself

but its ok


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## Bowie (May 31, 2015)

I believe in miracles, yes. I think one of the worst things about humans is their tendency to believe they know everything about the universe and anything they can't explain is automatically imaginary. For that reason, I choose to consider every belief and decide for myself whether or not I believe in it. In this case, I believe in miracles.


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## Peebers (May 31, 2015)

i guess i do?? i don't rlly believe in a god, but at the same time i do 

i've had lots of miracles happen to me last year (mostly during school lmao
although my definition of a miracle is really loose, so it could be that or i was just rlly lucky those days


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## Yukari Yakumo (May 31, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> very well said, i respect everyone opinion even if it is wrong


I have a feeling this battle was lost before it began.


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## Earth Wolf-Howl (May 31, 2015)

Bringing this back on topic...

To an extent. I don't believe in miracles that might happen in day-to-day existence. I'm a little cynical, and the thought of something near-impossible happening to benefit some lucky person seems like a wishful fantasy to me. Then again- I do regard it as a miracle that the conditions were exactly right on our world for it to harbour life, for instance, and that we were that exact one among millions to be granted life. But in the general sense of the word, and the usual connotations that go alongside it... No. It doesn't seem like something that would plausibly happen to me.

I apologise in advance if I unintentionally insult someone; I don't mean to do so.


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## Bradski (May 31, 2015)

Earth Wolf-Howl said:


> Bringing this back on topic...
> 
> To an extent. I don't believe in miracles that might happen in day-to-day existence. I'm a little cynical, and the thought of something near-impossible happening to benefit some lucky person seems like a wishful fantasy to me. Then again- I do regard it as a miracle that the conditions were exactly right on our world for it to harbour life, for instance, and that we were that exact one among millions to be granted life. But in the general sense of the word, and the usual connotations that go alongside it... No. It doesn't seem like something that would plausibly happen to me.
> 
> I apologise in advance if I unintentionally insult someone; I don't mean to do so.



You have unintentionally insulted me my good sir, but I like your avatar so I shall let it pass.  I guess the meaning of the world miracle is a tad bit different for everybody.


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## Llust (Jun 1, 2015)

It's difficult for me to explain, but it varies upon the situation. I don't believe in random miracles, but if the person has been doing good..then a miracle is expected or required in my opinion. It's like karma for me, a miracle can't happen unless a good deed is done


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## Pharaoh (Jun 1, 2015)

I don't think miracles are as meaningful or exist on the same principles they used to, they didn't just have to be religious things, they were sort of magical and hopeful events, like anything is possible no matter the odds. Now everyone's cynical or a neckbeard atheist so it doesn't really hold any value anymore either way. I myself am quite cynical and at a very depressed time in my life, so it's hard for me to see miracles in any situation. It's interesting to reflect on though.


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## EndlessElements (Jun 1, 2015)

yes i still believe in them


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## Envy (Jun 1, 2015)

Of course there are things that we don't yet understand, may not ever understand... But to call them "miracles" directly links to a belief that I do not think there is any reason to believe in whatsoever, so I'm not going to use that term.


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## badcrumbs (Jun 1, 2015)

Now I have that song stuck in my head... "you sexy thang"

But, "a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be *the work of a divine agency*."

No, I do not believe in miracles because I don't believe in a divine agency coming to the rescue. I credit these events to dumb luck. Just my two cents.


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## Rizies (Jun 1, 2015)

From my own experience, I personally believe in miracles.  I don't care if it's just 'dumb luck' or some divine entity, but I truly believe that they do happen.

Several years ago, about 7 or 8 years ago, my grandparents were in a terrible car accident.  My grandpa was making a left turn, and the car was T-boned by an oncoming truck.  Unfortunately, the vehicle didn't have any side airbags and my grandma took most of the impact.

I remember coming home from soccer, answering the phone and telling them my mom isn't home and gave the person her cell number.  She came home immediately, in tears, telling me she will fill us in later.  After she arrived to the hospital, she called home tell me that my grandfather was okay, but my grandma was in critical condition.  I was left with telling my younger brother what happened.

She was unconscious for three days, and the doctors had no idea why she was unconscious.  They tried everything to figure out why she was unconscious, and the doctors were at a point where they couldn't do anything.  On the third day she woke up, but had significant brain damage.  It took three months for her to get her short-term memory back, as well as the ability to walk and talk.  I remember I would have to go to her physiotherapy appointments, because when her family was there she would make more of an effort.  We would have to play memory games with her to help her with her short-term memory.  

She should of died that night.  Now 7 years later she is almost back to herself.  Since the accident her personality has changed, and she isn't the same as she was, she will never be- but she is alive.  That's a miracle in itself.


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## JasonBurrows (Jun 1, 2015)

Rizies said:
			
		

> She should of died that night. Now 7 years later she is almost back to herself. Since the accident her personality has changed, and she isn't the same as she was, she will never be- but she is alive. That's a miracle in itself.


That is really great to hear. I am glad she is recovering.


@Topic Yes, I believe in miracles... One happened to me the other day...

I preordered one Jigglypuff from a retailer in the UK. The online retailer charged me for two, refunded me for one and sent me two anyway. XD


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## Celestefey (Jun 1, 2015)

Peebers said:


> i guess i do?? i don't rlly believe in a god, but at the same time i do
> 
> i've had lots of miracles happen to me last year (mostly during school lmao
> although my definition of a miracle is really loose, so it could be that or i was just rlly lucky those days



Yes, I guess that the true meaning of the word can be misconstrued at times and used much more loosely and to exaggerate. But if you're looking at the specific definition then, I don't believe in miracles. Things happen, and there are reasons behind them to explain why... Even if we don't know WHY it happened, there is still always a reason as to why it happened and it can be explained, we just might not know what it is yet. 

I tried to think of miraculous things that happened in my life and yet even when I looked at them I could find explanations behind them. So yeah. Idk. Everything happens for a reason.


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## Chicken-Dentures (Jun 1, 2015)

idk? like i believe in really really good luck, and i have had a few miracles happen ((in my eyes lmao)) to me
but i'll tell u what i do believe in
i believe in a thing called love.


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## Jamborenium (Jun 1, 2015)

Hyogo said:


> When Ashtot stops posting, maybe the world will take a turn and miracles will actually start to happen.
> 
> But that's not going to happen, is it?



I  lol'd at this​


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## KiloPatches (Jun 1, 2015)

badcrumbs said:


> But, "a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be *the work of a divine agency*."



Thank you, badcrumbs, for posting a solid definition of "miracle", keyword, "divine agency". 

I am Catholic, do I believe God intervenes? Hmmm.... hard to say. I am a believer a multiple fates, rather than one singular fate, in other words, I don't really believe in fate at all or a "Divine Plan". So in that regard, I disagree with Catholic Doctrine. If God intervenes, is it a miracle? Sure, why not, call it what you like. Miracle has a nice ring to it. Call it what you like. Gives people hope. Makes people giddy to believe a miracle happened to THEM. So suddenly LIFE ITSELF is a miracle. OH JOY, OH BLESS! GOD GAVE US LIFE SO IT MUST BE A MIRACLE!!!! YAY BABIES!!!! Suddenly the thousands of conceptions that occur every second of every day are "miracles". Now when something that rapidly occurring, occurs to damn frequently it loses its value, in my opinion. Sexual reproduction, pregnancy, child birth, all that.... as complicated as a process as it is, and as many things that can go wrong in that process... it is STILL RAW BIOLOGY. RAW SCIENCE. NOTHING SHORT OF THAT. No Divine Intervention unless we are referring to the Virgin Birth. Impregnate a virgin with the son of God? Fine. Call it a miracle. Impregnate a 16 year old girl who got drunk and forgot to use protection? SORRY, NO MIRACLE THERE. Suddenly "Miracle" is the new buzzword. Is it a miracle that so-and-so is alive? Or is it medical practices simply DOING THEIR JOB?! When a plane lands, is it a miracle that everyone on board is alive just because SOME planes crash? We ONLY hear about the plane crashes! Newlines NEVER broadcast the hundreds of thousands of planes that successfully land and take off! Is it a miracle that the airline pilot was JUST DOING HIS JOB? Much like the doctors and nurses were JUST DOING THEIRS?! Yes there are "Probabilities of Success" in medical procedures, every doctor knows this, and the risks associated with procedures and diseases. Prognosis of a terminal illness, like a patient battling cancer for instance. Is it a miracle? Or is it a dice roll probability the chemotherapy is a success? How can we PROVE there was "Divine Intervention" in the patient's survival? Sorry, I think miracle is a step too far. 

I think miracles are less glamorous than we make them out to be. God does not put out these grandiose gestures for us all to see like saving lives and ****. No. If you look at how the Catholic Church appoints people to Sainthood, you are said to have to perform 3 "Miracles". What a load of cr*p, right? How could an earthly being EVER do that? We aren't talking like Jesus.... walking on water.... tuning water into wine.... THOSE sorts of miracles. NO! Simple acts, in the name of God, that did good for their fellow man. WTF?!?! THAT'S IT?!?! THAT'S A MIRACLE?!?! YOU'RE ****TING ME!!!!! Sorry, guys.... Even if its not "in the name of God" (because you don't believe in God, or whatever) just being humble, helping others, I know its cliche, but giving to the poor.... POPE FRANCIS ****. He will probably be appointed Sainthood when he dies. I wouldn't be surprised. Pope John Paul II did, and he was bada** too. Look up his "Miracles" - there was no spooky hockus pockus magic wonderous spectacular thing! It was his words and deeds. THOSE, my friends, are miracles. Divine Intervention? Sure.... simply being he just so-happenned-to-be-Catholic-and-doing-it-in-the-name-of-God. Whatever. That's Divine enough for me. But coexisting as human beings? Religion or no religion, doesn't matter, being good to your fellow man is STILL a miracle wether you did it because it was God's will or not. And NO I am not referring to some selfish deed to get your a** into heaven! And NO I am not really talking about you hearing God's voice in your head psychosis Joan of Arc style, though they didn't really know what that was back then, so they appointed her to Sainthood anyway, but I am not removing it from the equation entirely either! I don't QUITE know the situation there.... it was the Medieval Area, and Historical Documentation can be, not only scarce, but exaggerated a bit, as with most Medieval manuscripts, on ANYTHING. Priests and members of the Clergy "talk to God" ALL THE TIME - they aren't psychotic. Their religious testimony of joining the priesthood involves some Divine "calling". That "calling" or "discourse" that clergy have with God is what I mean when I say Saints have a way of knowing God's will and acting it out and performing these small modest gestures, or "Miracles".


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## Ashtot (Jun 1, 2015)

KiloPatches said:


> Thank you, badcrumbs, for posting a solid definition of "miracle", keyword, "divine agency".
> 
> I am Catholic, do I believe God intervenes? Hmmm.... hard to say. I am a believer a multiple fates, rather than one singular fate, in other words, I don't really believe in fate at all or a "Divine Plan". So in that regard, I disagree with Catholic Doctrine. If God intervenes, is it a miracle? Sure, why not, call it what you like. Miracle has a nice ring to it. Call it what you like. Gives people hope. Makes people giddy to believe a miracle happened to THEM. So suddenly LIFE ITSELF is a miracle. OH JOY, OH BLESS! GOD GAVE US LIFE SO IT MUST BE A MIRACLE!!!! YAY BABIES!!!! Suddenly the thousands of conceptions that occur every second of every day are "miracles". Now when something that rapidly occurring, occurs to damn frequently it loses its value, in my opinion. Sexual reproduction, pregnancy, child birth, all that.... as complicated as a process as it is, and as many things that can go wrong in that process... it is STILL RAW BIOLOGY. RAW SCIENCE. NOTHING SHORT OF THAT. No Divine Intervention unless we are referring to the Virgin Birth. Impregnate a virgin with the son of God? Fine. Call it a miracle. Impregnate a 16 year old girl who got drunk and forgot to use protection? SORRY, NO MIRACLE THERE. Suddenly "Miracle" is the new buzzword. Is it a miracle that so-and-so is alive? Or is it medical practices simply DOING THEIR JOB?! When a plane lands, is it a miracle that everyone on board is alive just because SOME planes crash? We ONLY hear about the plane crashes! Newlines NEVER broadcast the hundreds of thousands of planes that successfully land and take off! Is it a miracle that the airline pilot was JUST DOING HIS JOB? Much like the doctors and nurses were JUST DOING THEIRS?! Yes there are "Probabilities of Success" in medical procedures, every doctor knows this, and the risks associated with procedures and diseases. Prognosis of a terminal illness, like a patient battling cancer for instance. Is it a miracle? Or is it a dice roll probability the chemotherapy is a success? How can we PROVE there was "Divine Intervention" in the patient's survival? Sorry, I think miracle is a step too far.
> 
> I think miracles are less glamorous than we make them out to be. God does not put out these grandiose gestures for us all to see like saving lives and ****. No. If you look at how the Catholic Church appoints people to Sainthood, you are said to have to perform 3 "Miracles". What a load of cr*p, right? How could an earthly being EVER do that? We aren't talking like Jesus.... walking on water.... tuning water into wine.... THOSE sorts of miracles. NO! Simple acts, in the name of God, that did good for their fellow man. WTF?!?! THAT'S IT?!?! THAT'S A MIRACLE?!?! YOU'RE ****TING ME!!!!! Sorry, guys.... Even if its not "in the name of God" (because you don't believe in God, or whatever) just being humble, helping others, I know its cliche, but giving to the poor.... POPE FRANCIS ****. He will probably be appointed Sainthood when he dies. I wouldn't be surprised. Pope John Paul II did, and he was bada** too. Look up his "Miracles" - there was no spooky hockus pockus magic wonderous spectacular thing! It was his words and deeds. THOSE, my friends, are miracles. Divine Intervention? Sure.... simply being he just so-happenned-to-be-Catholic-and-doing-it-in-the-name-of-God. Whatever. That's Divine enough for me. But coexisting as human beings? Religion or no religion, doesn't matter, being good to your fellow man is STILL a miracle wether you did it because it was God's will or not. And NO I am not referring to some selfish deed to get your a** into heaven! And NO I am not really talking about you hearing God's voice in your head psychosis Joan of Arc style, though they didn't really know what that was back then, so they appointed her to Sainthood anyway, but I am not removing it from the equation entirely either! I don't QUITE know the situation there.... it was the Medieval Area, and Historical Documentation can be, not only scarce, but exaggerated a bit, as with most Medieval manuscripts, on ANYTHING. Priests and members of the Clergy "talk to God" ALL THE TIME - they aren't psychotic. Their religious testimony of joining the priesthood involves some Divine "calling". That "calling" or "discourse" that clergy have with God is what I mean when I say Saints have a way of knowing God's will and acting it out and performing these small modest gestures, or "Miracles".



why do u say ur catholic if u arent lol


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## Jake (Jun 1, 2015)

you bet I do


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## ams (Jun 1, 2015)

I agree that we use the word miracle to describe phenomena that have positive outcomes that we can't explain by our understanding of the natural world. I suppose if you believe in the supernatural, you could believe that these events have a supernatural source. If you don't, then you'd believe that they have a natural source that is beyond our current understanding. I personally fall into the latter category


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## charmi (Jun 1, 2015)

I'm not sure :c


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## KiloPatches (Jun 2, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> why do u say ur catholic if u arent lol



A few reasons....
The Holy Sacraments of Baptism, First Communion, Reconciliation and Confirmation. 
The fact that I receive the Holy Eucharist, and take that ritual seriously. 
How I am involved in my parish as a Reader and Eucharistic Minister.... 
How I was a sponsor to two RCIA candidates undergoing confirmation. 

But most of all, my Profession of Faith:
I believe in God,
The Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth,
I believe in the Jesus Christ, His only son, our Lord.
Who was conceived by the ppwer of the Holy Spirit, 
And born of the Virgin Mary. 
Suffered under Ponticus Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. 
He descended into Hell. On the Third Day he rose again from the Dead. 
He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the Right Hand of the Father. 
He will come again to judge the Living and the Dead. 
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the Forgiveness of Sins, The resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. 

THIS is the core of Catholicism, and why I am Catholic. NOT my stance on the politics of the church, gay marriage, pro life debate, assisted suicide debate and all that... 

TO STAY ON TOPIC so you don't rip apart the Apostle's Creed and attack my religious beliefs (which is not the point of this thread) I ALSO support the church's decision to appoint saints on merit of "miracles" of words and deeds rather than grandiose spectacles we are used to seeing in the scriptures. IN THAT REGARD, I believe in miracles. The little things. NOT life saving events. NOT life itself or a child being brought into the world. THOSE are explained by science. Gestures of sincere love are gifts from God, God's will... THOSE are miracles, wether you believe in him or not. To quote Bo Burnham, in his song From God's Perspective: "who needs 1000 metaphors to figure out you shouldn't be a d*ck?" Its worth a listen.... 

There are such things as Rational Catholics. We can be Critical Thinkers. I am in university, I HAVE to be. YES I believe in evolution, and dammit, so does the Catholic Church since Vatican II!!!! Get with the times people! We aren't archaic!

Does that surprise you?


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## AcousticDolphin (Jun 2, 2015)

Hmmm.. I dont know how I feel about miracles. They say everything happens for a reason, and that if someone is watching over us they want what is best. That really makes me think though because making people hurt for unexpected reasons does not seem "best". I guess we will never know.


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## Javocado (Jun 2, 2015)

yes john cena makes miracles happen


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## samsquared (Jun 2, 2015)

I believe in miracles
Since you came along
you sexy thing

...don't click that link, it is such a facebook mom link


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## hollowbunnie (Jun 2, 2015)

No.


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## Bradski (Jun 2, 2015)

KiloPatches said:


> Wall of hate.



 I am going to tell you this now as a born again Christian, the Catholics are NOT what Jesus wants us to be doing! If you've ever been to a Catholic church you will understand. It looks like a cult! And it is! The majority of Catholics believe absolute crap and don't read their bibles or know anything about christianity, they think going and SINGING the EXACT SAME song every week and reciting the EXACT SAME crap every week that they are in heaven. They are being deceived by the devil. 

Jesus does not want us to sit in church once a week and recite the same damn things like a cult, he wants us to go into the world and spread the love of God. Let me tell you guys something my family has been doing for a few years now. We heal people. In the name of Jesus. If you are a born again Christian that means you have asked Jesus into your heart, good step one clear you have Jesus in you, the one that conquered death and healed the sick, when you ask him into your life you also get the holy spirit as well, the holy spirit was his ONLY source for all of those healings and miracles he performed in his life, he wasn't in God mode when he was on earth he was a regular human with nothing but the holy spirit! So guess what? Every modern Christian has the same ingredients that Jesus did to do healings and miracles, and I've seen them with my own eyes! I have seen people healed WITH MY OWN EYES. 

I have seen people with 30 year old hearing impairments healed in the name of Jesus, a guy in a wheelchair with deformed feet healed. Once you see these things it's pretty hard to go on about "oh science did that!"... 

Jesus was the only God that conquered death by rising from the grave, Jesus is the only God that strives to have a personal relationship with every single one of you.

Let me share a short story that I experienced last month and I'll end my post at 4 something in the morning.. I was at a diner last month in Ohio, I had been at a conference that taught healing in the name of Jesus and getting words of knowledge from God. So I asked God in my thoughts of the guy sitting in the corner by himself drinking his coffee, "what do you think of this man, God?" he actually answered me and said he is an honest, hard working man. So I asked him for more details, "what does he do for a living?" God replied that he was a business owner and that he is going to bless his business come soon. So I mustered the courage to go talk to the man to see if this stuff I heard in my head wasn't random thoughts. I asked him if he owned a business and he said yes. So I told him that God will bless his business. So I walked back to my booth like a school girl that just asked her crush out on a date. 

God is good guys, he doesn't need anything from you, he loves you so unbelievably much. I didn't mean to post an equally long wall of text but you got my juices flowing kilopatches xD I hope God shows himself like he did me in your lives soon.


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## Bowie (Jun 2, 2015)

Well, I'm an atheist. I'm very spiritual, but I'm not religious. I believe in miracles.


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## KiloPatches (Jun 2, 2015)

Bradski said:


> I am going to tell you this now as a born again Christian, the Catholics are NOT what Jesus wants us to be doing! If you've ever been to a Catholic church you will understand. It looks like a cult! And it is! The majority of Catholics believe absolute crap and don't read their bibles or know anything about christianity, they think going and SINGING the EXACT SAME song every week and reciting the EXACT SAME crap every week that they are in heaven. They are being deceived by the devil.
> 
> Jesus does not want us to sit in church once a week and recite the same damn things like a cult, he wants us to go into the world and spread the love of God. Let me tell you guys something my family has been doing for a few years now. We heal people. In the name of Jesus. If you are a born again Christian that means you have asked Jesus into your heart, good step one clear you have Jesus in you, the one that conquered death and healed the sick, when you ask him into your life you also get the holy spirit as well, the holy spirit was his ONLY source for all of those healings and miracles he performed in his life, he wasn't in God mode when he was on earth he was a regular human with nothing but the holy spirit! So guess what? Every modern Christian has the same ingredients that Jesus did to do healings and miracles, and I've seen them with my own eyes! I have seen people healed WITH MY OWN EYES.
> 
> ...



MY "Wall of Hate"? Last time I checked, YOU were the one saying Catholics were "being deceived by the devil", that the Catholic Church is a "cult" and making false, offensive assumptions about our practices, and MY post was open to ALL religious views, INCLUDING non-Catholic, INCLUDING born-again Christian, ANY sect of Christianity, Muslin (any sect of Islam), Jewish, Buddhist, EVEN ATHEIST! YOU NAME IT!!!! MY message was simply: BE GOOD TO YOUR FELLOW MAN. THAT'S IT. REMOVE RELIGION FROM THE EQUATION. THAT'S a miracle. Not these grandiose acts of God guy-in-a-wheelchair-with-deformed-feet-being-healed. 

WOULD YOU GUYS PLEASE WATCH THIS VIDEO! HONESTLY! 
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxc20saM8DA
Its a 4:12 song by Bo Burnham, a comedian, its super profound and its EXACTLY WHY WE SHOULDN'T BICKER LIKE THIS. OMG. 
Just ****ing LISTEN to it already!


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## Cory (Jun 2, 2015)

I believed in miracles ever since the USA hockey team beat the soviets in the 1980 Winter Olympics


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## Ashtot (Jun 2, 2015)

Bradski said:


> I am going to tell you this now as a born again Christian, the Catholics are NOT what Jesus wants us to be doing! If you've ever been to a Catholic church you will understand. It looks like a cult! And it is! The majority of Catholics believe absolute crap and don't read their bibles or know anything about christianity, they think going and SINGING the EXACT SAME song every week and reciting the EXACT SAME crap every week that they are in heaven. They are being deceived by the devil.
> 
> Jesus does not want us to sit in church once a week and recite the same damn things like a cult, he wants us to go into the world and spread the love of God. Let me tell you guys something my family has been doing for a few years now. We heal people. In the name of Jesus. If you are a born again Christian that means you have asked Jesus into your heart, good step one clear you have Jesus in you, the one that conquered death and healed the sick, when you ask him into your life you also get the holy spirit as well, the holy spirit was his ONLY source for all of those healings and miracles he performed in his life, he wasn't in God mode when he was on earth he was a regular human with nothing but the holy spirit! So guess what? Every modern Christian has the same ingredients that Jesus did to do healings and miracles, and I've seen them with my own eyes! I have seen people healed WITH MY OWN EYES.
> 
> ...



gj telling someone that what they're doing is bad over the internet and pushing your faith on someone else

also lol Catholicism is not a cult, i mean you can make that argument against Mormons or Jehova's Witness but not Catholicism 

i actually agree with a lot of what you're saying but you're going about telling people the wrong way, the only way people will receive you on here is negatively and that is something you need to consider. 

you're also generalizing and basically saying that Catholicism is null and that anything they do or say is garbage and has nothing to do with your same God which is not true

pls be a good rep for Christianity instead of a crappy one like so many out there

also for the record he was not hating anything lol


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## Bradski (Jun 2, 2015)

Yeah it was a mistake to call it a wall of hate, apologies for that. I also made some bold statements regarding catholics. Obviously not all Catholics are bad, I know a lot of awesome Catholics that are spreading the love of Jesus more than most, but the Catholic church itself has some big issues. (which most churches do nowadays unfortunately) my goal obviously is not to shame anyone here or bash what they believe (i understand that I already did that...) it's to spread the love of God.


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## Ashtot (Jun 2, 2015)

Bradski said:


> Yeah it was a mistake to call it a wall of hate, apologies for that. I also made some bold statements regarding catholics. Obviously not all Catholics are bad, I know a lot of awesome Catholics that are spreading the love of Jesus more than most, but the Catholic church itself has some big issues. (which most churches do nowadays unfortunately) my goal obviously is not to shame anyone here or bash what they believe (i understand that I already did that...) it's to spread the love of God.



yes u need to not judge people for what they believe


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## KiloPatches (Jun 2, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> gj telling someone that what they're doing is bad over the internet and pushing your faith on someone else
> 
> also lol Catholicism is not a cult, i mean you can make that argument against Mormons or Jehova's Witness but not Catholicism
> 
> ...



YAUS! YA-HAUS! THANK-YOU! 

TOO OFTEN TO WE FAIL MISERABLY AT THAT. GAWD. 
We try.... SO HARD..... and crash, bang, FAIL. 
I see my fellow parishioners talk to others, or post things on Facebook, and its like *FACE PALM* WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!?!
Believe me. I know. -__-"

It sucks because I have a different perspective. For them, Catholicism is ALL they know. "Cradle Catholics" they are called. I left the church for 8 years and came back by choice. We don't do the "Born Again" thing, I just started practicing again, like going back to church and such, on my own. Once you are Baptized, you are baptized for life. That blessing never leaves you. Apparently. So you don't need to get re-baptized. At least not in our faith. 

And yeah, it hinders my faith a little when my friends post things on Facebook like "[THIS POLITICAL PARTY] IS EVIL BECAUSE THEY SUPPORT [THIS LEGISLATURE]!!!!" Evil? Really? What ever happened to division between church and state? 

Our Pope just ordained a bunch of priests and literally said to them:
"Go forth and DON'T GIVE BORING HOMILIES (Sermons)"
SERIOUSLY! Because all that's left is a bunch of old guys mumbling on... And people stop caring. Young priests can incorporate REAL ISSUES and be relatable to the younger generation - the future of the church. And actually have an ounce of enthusiasm in their voice!   

And also, I am female ^^ No big deal. Honest mistake.


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## Ashtot (Jun 2, 2015)

KiloPatches said:


> YAUS! YA-HAUS! THANK-YOU!
> 
> TOO OFTEN TO WE FAIL MISERABLY AT THAT. GAWD.
> We try.... SO HARD..... and crash, bang, FAIL.
> ...



WATCH OUT OBAMA IS A COMMUNIST!!!!!

facebook moms


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## KiloPatches (Jun 2, 2015)

Bradski said:


> Yeah it was a mistake to call it a wall of hate, apologies for that. I also made some bold statements regarding catholics. Obviously not all Catholics are bad, I know a lot of awesome Catholics that are spreading the love of Jesus more than most, but the Catholic church itself has some big issues. (which most churches do nowadays unfortunately) my goal obviously is not to shame anyone here or bash what they believe (i understand that I already did that...) it's to spread the love of God.



WOW. COMPLETE 180. But I accept your apology. 
YES. I WILL BE THE FIRST TO SAY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS SOME MAJOR ISSUES. YEAH WE ****ING DO! 
But Vatican II, which was basically a whole turnover of the church in the 1960s, opted to make some changes. ITS A WORK IN PROGRESS. We are changing our ways. Its slow. Pope Francis is kickin' a**. He will speed things up a bit, I am sure. But damn, there IS a lot of work ahead. His beliefs are in line with mine, but unfortunately MANY Catholics are all Fire & Brimstone so-to-speak, and are stuck in the old ways, and once THEY die off, the Church will be more progressive, while still maintaining honour to its traditions.


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## Ashtot (Jun 2, 2015)

KiloPatches said:


> WOW. COMPLETE 180. But I accept your apology.
> YES. I WILL BE THE FIRST TO SAY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS SOME MAJOR ISSUES. YEAH WE ****ING DO!
> But Vatican II, which was basically a whole turnover of the church in the 1960s, opted to make some changes. ITS A WORK IN PROGRESS. We are changing our ways. Its slow. Pope Francis is kickin' a**. He will speed things up a bit, I am sure. But damn, there IS a lot of work ahead. His beliefs are in line with mine, but unfortunately MANY Catholics are all Fire & Brimstone so-to-speak, and are stuck in the old ways, and once THEY die off, the Church will be more progressive, while still maintaining honour to its traditions.



sorry i didnt mean dot call u a man


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## KiloPatches (Jun 2, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> WATCH OUT OBAMA IS A COMMUNIST!!!!!
> 
> facebook moms



I'm Canadian, actually. HARPER CAN GO TO HELL!!!!!! XD Nobody gives a **** about Canadian Prime Ministers, not even Canadians. LMAO.


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## infinikitten (Jun 2, 2015)

Nothing is inherently a miracle, someone just comes along and declares it to be one. /shrug


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## Flowergender (Jun 6, 2015)

Nay said:


> no at least no miracle of any conesequence bc if they existed, and if ""god"" existed idk why the world is not a better place



I mean you do understand that with or without a god, we have free will, and while everything that is happening to people (say deadly diseases, earthquakes etc.) isn't something we can change a huge percent of why the earth is eff-ed up is all because of us, and I mean gosh, if I was god, I'd say "f*** it" too when it comes to people. I mean, we've been given or (have) so many opportunities to make the earth better and we choose to keep f***ing it up. People (when it comes to us all together) are greedy, stupid, and selfish. So I mean if there is really a god, I don't think we have done close to sh** to deserve him/her to "save us" or make things better.


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## contententity (Jun 7, 2015)

Honestly, I would really like to believe in miracles. But I am hard-wired to be a very logical person. So even if something appears to be miraculous, my brain will just tell me that there's probably some sort of explanation. Maybe I'm just pessimistic, though.


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## Panazel Maria (Jun 7, 2015)

This topic makes me wonder if, one day, we'll also have explanations for how different people have varying amounts of luck and why our luck changes over time. Probabilology, they'll probably call it.

For miracles? Well if I believe in Sanae, then...(Serious Answer: Personally, I do zel, and I still believe dreams are not explicable by scientific means, neither is fortune.)


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## ApolloJusticeAC (Jun 7, 2015)

No. Miracles never happen.


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## uwuzumakii (Jun 7, 2015)

For me, yes and no. I consider myself somewhere in between agnostic and atheist. I am technically a Christian, but I don't particularly believe in what it has to offer. My grandparents are extremely religious, while most of my friends have a much more scientific and realist view on life. I myself think that there COULD be a divine power guiding humanity, but I have yet to see it. I guess if I were to be in a religion of my choice, I'd be Buddhist. I agree with that sort of idea of life. So, I guess the Christian meaning of miracles, no, not particularly. But I am always open to new and others ideas, so unless I am truly convinced, I don't believe in... "religious" miracles. Although, I do think that an afterlife exists and I do believe in paranormal activity, long story short, I believe in ghosts. So, I do believe in paranormal activity and things caused by ghosts. Have fun agreeing and disagreeing with what I stand by.


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## samsquared (Jun 7, 2015)

Well, see the real question is
do you believe in life after love?


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## Trio4meo (Jun 7, 2015)

Well I believe in God, so I believe in miracles ('▽'〃)


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## Le Ham (Jun 7, 2015)

Ashtot said:


> the argument that if god exists then the world would be some great place doesnt make any sense because of tons of reasons
> 
> and thats only 3
> 
> ...





Spoiler: As a Christian myself being taught in a Catholic high school, let me try to explain what Ashtot was going on about here. Warning: it's pretty long, get some food and a comfortable spot to read



People say that God cannot exist because there is evil and suffering in the world, claiming that if God truly loved us, He wouldn't have made Hell, sin, etc. When really, He didn't directly create sin and Hell-- we did. 
Because of man's (specifically Adam and Eve's) failure to obey God, we then had to deal with a stain on our race, a separation, because we rebelled against God. This is sin. Some will ask "But why did he put all those curses on them in addition?" He punished Adam and Eve, because any loving father disciplines their kids and shows them what's what, so that they can learn from their bad choices, know how to please Him, and try to do better to please Him.
Our ability to sin in the first place comes from God's gift to humans of free will. Because of Him we have a moral right and wrong and a use for our consciences. We can then, based on the information given to us about Him in our lives, freely choose to obey Him or not care about Him; to accept or reject Him. If we accept God, He says that we must obey him if we truly love Him; we must strive to please Him by our actions. 
If we reject Him? Well, to put it the way my religion teacher put it, God isn't going to force you to live in His presence eternally (Heaven). He's going to respect your decision and let you be separate from Him if it's how much you couldn't stand Him. (Like how people say that if you truly love your spouse you would be willing to let them leave you if they so desired.) 
Problem is, Hell is in and of itself that separation. God, being the Divine Creator, is of all good things: love, beauty, happiness, etc. Without God, there is no love, beauty happiness, etc. and that's pretty much what Hell is. Hell was created by a _lack_ of God, not by God Himself.
Now if you lived your life never knowing of God's existence and never hearing the Word? I believe God would have mercy; otherwise we'd have millions of premature and aborted babies in Hell when they were never even able to sin. You can't deliberately go against God when you have no idea what God is, lol. 
So now the question is this: why does God allow us free will when we can't know everything about Him or logically look at the consequences and make an educated choice based on that knowledge? Faith.
The way God approaches us is that He reveals to us the things we need to know in order to be saved, but within His revelations there's always room for doubt. He never makes Himself plainly-known or understood, He never shows His existence to be a common fact. The idea of trying to find evidence for God's existence using scientific methods? Hilarious. 
Science only focuses on what humans know and theorize about the natural world, while God is in the supernatural and doesn't need to conform to nature; thus miracles, defined as occurrences that cannot be explained by the laws of nature, are possible ("anything is possible with God"). Let me also throw out there that, clearly, we would have no concept of miracles if it weren't for God, just as the exact definition of the properties of true goodness, beauty, perfection as a whole, and their opposites are found nowhere else but in Him.
Now, let's look at a different side. *1+1=2.* You do not _believe_ that 1+1=2; you do not _have_ to. It is a _mathematical, proven fact._ You _know_ that 1+1=2. God, however, is not a mathematical, proven fact, because He doesn't need to be. If He _were_ a proven fact by the laws of nature/science/the world, you would not have to _believe_ in Him, and tbh He wouldn't be supernatural at all and therefore there wouldn't be miracles. This is why He provides the gift of faith: the ability to believe in Him, regardless of what science says or what the "evidence" says. That may be a lot for Him to expect of us, but He's gotta have some standards to go on regarding who gets into Heaven and who doesn't (no one ever "deserves" Heaven; our salvation is a gift, too)... and if we can totally deny the world and keep our faith, even in the face of our opposers, that means a strong love for God, a strong desire to serve Him, and a strong desire to follow His commandments. 
True faith, just like God Himself, does not require the conformity of the natural world. It goes beyond what the world can provide, and it doesn't need to agree with the laws of this world. This is why God gives us that gift, and He only gives it to those that look for Him where He ought to be found.


On a lighter note...


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## Mayor Rose (Jul 15, 2015)

Miracles do not exist.


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## Kuroh (Jul 16, 2015)

I believe in miracles


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## DarkDesertFox (Jul 16, 2015)

Mayor Rose said:


> Miracles do not exist.



You were saying?


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## mintellect (Jul 16, 2015)

Of course I do. My family has had many miracles. It's a miracle in itself we were able to make it this far considering all the problems we have.


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## TheGreatBrain (Jul 16, 2015)

Yes, I believe in miracles. I believe that with god, all things are possible.


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## kite (Jul 17, 2015)

I don't necessarily believe in miracles, but I do hope for something good to happen even though there are slim chances. Depending on what it is, not everyone can beat the odds, but it's not like it can't happen.


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## Lock (Jul 17, 2015)

I think I believe in karma and good timing, but I like to use the word 'miracle' because it sounds more exciting in some situations.


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## PoizonMushro0m (Jul 17, 2015)

Depends on the situation...


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## Sealy (Jul 17, 2015)

Ehhhhh... I bleieve it like.. 5% out of 95%

So no...


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