# death penalty



## visibleghost (Jul 29, 2016)

sso this was kinda discussed a little in another thread But i thpught it was kinda off topic so i decided to make a seperate thread for it.

what do you think about it? do you think people can deserve to die? and should the government be able to sentence someone to death if they are found guilty of a crime? why/why not?

im gonna write a longer thing later, but i'm against capital punishment. a few issues i have w it is that if someone is found guilty even though they are innocent, there's no going back. and in my opinion it's immoral to kill people. annnndddd imo it's a bit uH not Great to have the government choose like that who lives and who dies but ye


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## moonford (Jul 29, 2016)

I've thought about it and I'm against it.


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## maplecheek (Jul 29, 2016)

I disagree with the death penalty. 

But sometimes things get blurry. If you agree to citizenship to a government that has a death penalty, then in some ways you consent to its laws. The death penalty is immoral, but it may not be unjustified within the created system of "justice." 

I haven't fully thought this out.


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## Tensu (Jul 29, 2016)

Oh mama more drama

I don't think that death penalty is ok. Before resorting to death penalty you should try to help the person and educate them properly. More killing won't help solve anything, you're just showing a killer that killing is still ok. Lifetime jail should be used instead. Death penalty should only be used if absolutely needed and definitely not over petty things. No one should have the right to take a life. Not the killer or the people dealing the capital punishment.


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## nintendofan85 (Jul 29, 2016)

Honestly, I don't know, but I'd say that I'm for it in certain circumstances. It depends on the level of the crime. For example, if it was a murder (especially a mass one), I would probably be for it, but anything less than that, no.


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## DarkDesertFox (Jul 29, 2016)

Whiteflamingo said:


> *I personally believe if you take a life yours should also be taken.*



Even in a self defense case where you had no other choice? What if it was a complete freak accident?

As for the death penalty, yes I believe some people certainly do deserve it for extreme cases where jail would be too good for them.


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## Licorice (Jul 29, 2016)

I see no issue with the death penalty. If someone is a murderer or a rapist then they deserve death. They're scum.


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## moonford (Jul 29, 2016)

DarkDesertFox said:


> Even in a self defense case where you had no other choice? What if it was a complete freak accident?
> 
> As for the death penalty, yes I believe some people certainly do deserve it for extreme cases where jail would be too good for them.



Changed my mind, on the situation.


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## Bowie (Jul 29, 2016)

I don't believe in the death penalty, no.


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## xara (Jul 29, 2016)

I don't agree with it. 

In my personal opinion, I feel like if you commit a crime (example: murder), I feel you should be forced to live with that. Live with possible guilt, live with every decision and thought that brought you to murder someone, live with knowing what you've done. 

Idk if that makes sense


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## Fleshy (Jul 29, 2016)

I'm against the death penalty, I believe killing is morally wrong. Also, there's many problems with the death penalty, people being falsely convicted and sentenced to death (I'm on mobile, so I can't post links for proof easily, but examples can be found wih a quick google search), it going wrong and people being in an intense amount of pain for hours. It's all completley immoral, regardless of what the criminal has done. The belief that someone should hold the power to decide when it's legal to kill someone is so messed up. There's more than that to it though, and it is an interesting and complicated topic.

For the people saying sometimes/certian circumstances, when? It shouldn't be a humans place to decide when it's okay to take someone's life as punishment, I find it slightly scary that people believe that's acceptable, god complex much.


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## Miii (Jul 29, 2016)

I'm all for the death penalty. The worst and most dangerous people in our society shouldn't be allowed to keep living, as they'll only continue to cause problems and hurt the people that actually obey laws and give a **** about others. I don't think that a mother that drowns her 3 children in the bathtub should get to live the remainder of her (probably pretty long) life in a prison cell where she'll get to watch daytime tv and eat 3 meals a day. I also don't think pedophiles that permanently traumatize kids for the rest of their entire lives should get to continue living to potentially do that to more kids. People put vicious dogs to sleep; why not vicious (way more dangerous and way more intelligent) people?


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## visibleghost (Jul 29, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> I'm against the death penalty, I believe killing is morally wrong. Also, there's many problems with the death penalty, people being falsely convicted and sentenced to death (I'm on mobile, so I can't post links for proof easily, but examples can be found wih a quick google search), it going wrong and people being in an intense amount of pain for hours. It's all completley immoral, regardless of what the criminal has done. The belief that someone should hold the power to decide when it's legal to kill someone is so messed up. There's more than that to it though, and it is an interesting and complicated topic.
> 
> For the people saying sometimes/certian circumstances, when? It shouldn't be a humans place to decide when it's okay to take someone's life as punishment, I find it slightly scary that people believe that's acceptable, god complex much.


i agree w u completely, especially the last paragraph.

people who say "well, in the worst cases it's ok", what cases are the worst? are you going to look at how the media portrays someone and say "that person deserves to die, that one doesn't". like ??? okay but ...  why. people who have commited crimes are still people, and deserve to be treated with human rights. their punishment is prison, as it should be. 
other people deciding who shall live and who shall not isn't cool, both when it comes to death penalty and murder.


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## Fleshy (Jul 29, 2016)

--


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## Reindeer (Jul 29, 2016)

100% against it. I don't think people should have the right to decide over the lives of others, even if they have committed vile crimes. Like I said in the other thread, I'd rather they be kept in isolation so they can think over their actions.
I also believe rehabilitation is always an option, it's even something that's often forced upon a lot of criminals over here in the Netherlands. There's only been a handful people in the last two decades that were not able to be rehabilitated. For those cases, sentences are adjusted in order to keep such individuals out of society.


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## Cudon (Jul 29, 2016)

I disagree with the death penalty. I consider it a bit too hard to be able to perfectly pull off a justifiable death penalty.

 Each criminal case is different, and deciding who dies and who doesn't would be tough and people would generally have different opinions on it. Should the crazy mother who drowned her 3 kids be sentenced to death if the crime might have been caused by drugs or stress, or a mental illness? Should the rapist be sentenced to death even though him raping was largely caused by his family teaching him bad morals? There's always so much **** in the background of a crime, that taking all of it into account would be a really long, and morally impossible, process. It would be impossible to just draw a solid line somewhere.

I also believe that rehabilitation is very possible for many cases. For an example, it's possible to help someone with a warped sense of reality, or someone with a drug issue, or a mental illness, to be more normal. Rehabilitation also seems to be working rather well for countries that fully use it, considering that the amount of repeat offenders is low.

Not just that, but a death penalty would just cause more hate. Many families love their children, even if they end up committing a crime, and some would go as far as to swear revenge for having their child killed off. And the likelihood of killing someone innocent is too risky. The death of an innocent person would anger many and cause distrust in the legal system. An innocent man being killed off would easily cause an uproar on social media and many protests, even if the justice system hadn't technically really done anything wrong.


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## visibleghost (Jul 29, 2016)

Miii said:


> I'm all for the death penalty. The worst and most dangerous people in our society shouldn't be allowed to keep living, as they'll only continue to cause problems and hurt the people that actually obey laws and give a **** about others. I don't think that a mother that drowns her 3 children in the bathtub should get to live the remainder of her (probably pretty long) life in a prison cell where she'll get to watch daytime tv and eat 3 meals a day. I also don't think pedophiles that permanently traumatize kids for the rest of their entire lives should get to continue living to potentially do that to more kids. People put vicious dogs to sleep; why not vicious (way more dangerous and way more intelligent) people?


there are plenty of people wo traumatize kids. should all of them who do it illegally get sentenced to desth? why would that be better. the kid wouldnt be less suffering. you would only get a feeling of having gotten revenge when all you did was kill a person who had commited a crime, a crime that probably could have been stopped if stuff had been right. (not saying it's not on the individual who commits the crime, but the system has to support ppl and help them.)

no matter what a person does the system has to work for them and for society to be a better place. no matter what people feel they "deserve" - the law and human rights guidelines have to be followed when it comes to punishment. not treating people with human rights isn't okay, ever. if you think that it is alright then i think you need to get your view of reality fixed


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## seliph (Jul 29, 2016)

Tbh I think rapists/sex offenders/child molesters deserve to die but I also agree with Fleshy's point about how often people are wrongly convicted for things, and I could see it being abused and going horribly wrong so!!


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## moonford (Jul 29, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> I'm against the death penalty, I believe killing is morally wrong. Also, there's many problems with the death penalty, people being falsely convicted and sentenced to death (I'm on mobile, so I can't post links for proof easily, but examples can be found wih a quick google search), it going wrong and people being in an intense amount of pain for hours. It's all completley immoral, regardless of what the criminal has done. The belief that someone should hold the power to decide when it's legal to kill someone is so messed up. There's more than that to it though, and it is an interesting and complicated topic.
> 
> For the people saying sometimes/certian circumstances, when? It shouldn't be a humans place to decide when it's okay to take someone's life as punishment, I find it slightly scary that people believe that's acceptable, god complex much.



What if someone killed & tortured someone else?

I absolutely agree with everything you said. c:


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## visibleghost (Jul 29, 2016)

nvll said:


> Tbh I think rapists/sex offenders/child molesters deserve to die but I also agree with Fleshy's point about how often people are wrongly convicted for things, and I could see it being abused and going horribly wrong so!!



as a personal opinion i would want ppl who sexually abuse others to die. but !!! i understand that it's not okay to kill people and i value human rights. and my personal hatred for certain people should not be something that should make it ok for me to kill them. punishments have to be based on facts and stuff like that, not "i personally hate sex offendeds and think they are gross and very immoral so kill them all" 
 obviously not saying you wrote that asjfdksodofl im just. tired.


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## Cudon (Jul 29, 2016)

I've never understood why people think it's okay for rapists to get the death penalty. I mean, rape is absolutely traumatizing and horrid to go through, but generally the person can live afterwards and may eventually get over it through therapy. If it's okay to kill people who cause massive trauma on others, then shouldn't people who, for an example, heavily bully others be put to death as well? Since bullying can cause quite a lot of trauma if it's done severely.


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## seliph (Jul 29, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> as a personal opinion i would want ppl who sexually abuse others to die. but !!! i understand that it's not okay to kill people and i value human rights. and my personal hatred for certain people should not be something that should make it ok for me to kill them. punishments have to be based on facts and stuff like that, not "i personally hate sex offendeds and think they are gross and very immoral so kill them all"
> obviously not saying you wrote that asjfdksodofl im just. tired.



Honestly I think those people deserve it. Sure I wouldn't do it but if someone else did I wouldn't be upset about it. Idk what you mean with "punishments have to be based on facts and stuff like that" if the fact is someone raped someone and scarred them for the rest of their life?

On the other hand there is a plethora of fates that are worse than death and some people say rotting in jail for the rest of your life is worse so

?\_(ツ)_/?


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## Mega_Cabbage (Jul 29, 2016)

Nah. It costs more to go through with the death penalty because of several legal actions.  Not only that, but the jury and other people involved have to suffer with the thought of whether or not they chose to put someone up for death even though they had absolutely nothing to do with it in the first place. It also takes several years (about 10-20 or so) to process everything from sentencing to execution. It's a waste of time saying "Oh you're being put up for death penalty." and then sixteen years of paperwork, time, and money later saying "JK! Nevermind. It's just life imprisonment." if the jury decides not to execute them.  Do some people deserve it? Yes. Is it worth it for everyone? Probably not.


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## Cory (Jul 29, 2016)

I believe if you kill someone that you should die. Simple as that. Also you die the same way you killed someone.


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## visibleghost (Jul 29, 2016)

nvll said:


> Honestly I think those people deserve it. Sure I wouldn't do it but if someone else did I wouldn't be upset about it. Idk what you mean with "punishments have to be based on facts and stuff like that" if the fact is someone raped someone and scarred them for the rest of their life?
> 
> On the other hand there is a plethora of fates that are worse than death and some people say rotting in jail for the rest of your life is worse so
> 
> ?\_(ツ)_/?


w the facts thing i meant, like.  im not v knowlegeable about how ppl do law stuff, but basically they can't say "hey u all knlw rape is rly bad !! so they should get a longer sentence!!". they have to have specific facts n stuff and not opinions. obviously stuff like traumatizing is a part of it, but when law ppl do the law stuff their personal opinions shouldnt be a part of it. aaaaand in my opinion death sentence is a thing that could be impacted by personal opinions of lawyers and those ppl. 

and if we're gonna kill everyone eho traumatizes ppl .... Wel. l l l.... let's start w 10 yr old  bullies?


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## Cory (Jul 29, 2016)

Also murder is worse than molestation/rape


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## visibleghost (Jul 29, 2016)

Cory said:


> I believe if you kill someone that you should die. Simple as that. Also you die the same way you killed someone.



this just sounds like someone who hits someone i the face because they punched them in the face first. doesnt solve **** and is only a petty way of getting revenge. w/ lives it's more srs lol


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## Tensu (Jul 29, 2016)

Cory said:


> I believe if you kill someone that you should die. Simple as that. Also you die the same way you killed someone.



So the people dealing the capital punishment should also die? That's twice the death. I see what you're saying, but the logic you're using makes no sense.


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## Xerolin (Jul 29, 2016)

Depends on what they did. If they murdered/raped several people with no cause, I say the death penalty is A-OK. If just one person or so, throw them in prison for however many years. If they had the kill the person in self-defense, give them little to no charge. Now you might have to go more into detail depending on the situation, but thats my view on it


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## visibleghost (Jul 29, 2016)

Azure said:


> So the people dealing the capital punishment should also die? That's twice the death. I see what you're saying, but the logic you're using makes no sense.



and then the people killing the people who killed the killer have to be killed.


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## Cory (Jul 29, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> this just sounds like someone who hits someone i the face because they punched them in the face first. doesnt solve **** and is only a petty way of getting revenge. w/ lives it's more srs lol



If you cut someone's life short your life should be too.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Azure said:


> So the people dealing the capital punishment should also die? That's twice the death. I see what you're saying, but the logic you're using makes no sense.



Ok obviously the person killing the killers won't be punished.


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## seliph (Jul 29, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> w the facts thing i meant, like.  im not v knowlegeable about how ppl do law stuff, but basically they can't say "hey u all knlw rape is rly bad !! so they should get a longer sentence!!". they have to have specific facts n stuff and not opinions. obviously stuff like traumatizing is a part of it, but when law ppl do the law stuff their personal opinions shouldnt be a part of it. *aaaaand in my opinion death sentence is a thing that could be impacted by personal opinions of lawyers and those ppl.*
> 
> and if we're gonna kill everyone eho traumatizes ppl .... Wel. l l l.... let's start w 10 yr old  bullies?



I don't really get what you're trying to say but bolded is why I'm on the fence about it since it can easily be manipulated like I said, and things like racism will likely play a part in who gets death sentenced and who gets a mere 2 years in jail.

Obviously children shouldn't be put to death since they have a huge amount of time to learn from their mistakes.


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## Tensu (Jul 29, 2016)

Cory said:


> If you cut someone's life short your life should be too.
> Ok obviously the person killing the killers won't be punished.



Well that's pretty much what you said :/


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## visibleghost (Jul 29, 2016)

nvll said:


> I don't really get what you're trying to say but bolded is why I'm on the fence about it since it can easily be manipulated like I said, and things like racism will likely play a part in who gets death sentenced and who gets a mere 2 years in jail.
> 
> Obviously children shouldn't be put to death since they have a huge amount of time to learn from their mistakes.


sorry that i'm not making a lot o sense i know i'm a bit ??????????    i'll try to word stuff better but my mind is a mess and stuff so u hh

but basically i was just explaining what u bolded in my last post.

but the number one reason to why i think desth penalty is bad is because it is immoral to kill people. locking them up for life might not be very nice, idk, but killing people isn't okay and the law (who is there to protect people) shouldn't be used to kill anyone


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## f11 (Jul 29, 2016)

Rapist and molesters should be killed.


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## visibleghost (Jul 29, 2016)

Cory said:


> If you cut someone's life short your life should be too.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



maybe ppl can grow and learn from past mistakes? maybe people still have a right to you know, a life? mmmaybe they aren't even guilty. (obviously it's bad if u put someone innocent in prison, but it's kinda worse if u kill them ....)
and if we want to give a medsage of "killing is bad" we shouldn't kill killers. that doesn't make a lot of sense imo.


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## seliph (Jul 29, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> sorry that i'm not making a lot o sense i know i'm a bit ??????????    i'll try to word stuff better but my mind is a mess and stuff so u hh
> 
> but basically i was just explaining what u bolded in my last post.
> 
> but the number one reason to why i think desth penalty is bad is because it is immoral to kill people. locking them up for life might not be very nice, idk, but killing people isn't okay and the law (who is there to protect people) shouldn't be used to kill anyone



IT'S OK I can't read for crap either it's probably both of us

But yeah I understand your reasoning I just don't think certain people deserve to live after what they've done.


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## Miii (Jul 29, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> there are plenty of people wo traumatize kids. should all of them who do it illegally get sentenced to desth? why would that be better. the kid wouldnt be less suffering. you would only get a feeling of having gotten revenge when all you did was kill a person who had commited a crime, a crime that probably could have been stopped if stuff had been right. (not saying it's not on the individual who commits the crime, but the system has to support ppl and help them.)
> 
> no matter what a person does the system has to work for them and for society to be a better place. no matter what people feel they "deserve" - the law and human rights guidelines have to be followed when it comes to punishment. not treating people with human rights isn't okay, ever. if you think that it is alright then i think you need to get your view of reality fixed



I don't think every bad parent out there should be sentenced to death, if that's what you're asking. But people that do something like rape an innocent child that has no possible way of defending themselves should absolutely die. Their life has no value at that point, and they no longer deserve the right to live and be happy like the people that don't commit the most vile kinds of crimes.

Let me just make clear the fact that I don't take the death penalty lightly. It's not something I think should be applied to every crime, or act of negligence (or even close to that). But again, the worst of the worst don't deserve the same rights as the people that have no desire to harm others. 

Do you really think that people like Michelle Angela Blair, the mother that killed her two children, stuffed them in a freezer, then hid it for two years so she could keep getting child support, deserves the same rights as me or you? I don't, and I don't understand how anyone would.


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## visibleghost (Jul 29, 2016)

Miii said:


> I don't think every bad parent out there should be sentenced to death, if that's what you're asking. But people that do something like rape an innocent child that has no possible way of defending themselves should absolutely die. Their life has no value at that point, and they no longer deserve the right to live and be happy like the people that don't commit the most vile kinds of crimes.
> 
> Let me just make clear the fact that I don't take the death penalty lightly. It's not something I think should be applied to every crime, or act of negligence (or even close to that). But again, the worst of the worst don't deserve the same rights as the people that have no desire to harm others.
> 
> Do you really think that people like Michelle Angela Blair, the mother that killed her two children, stuffed them in a freezer, then hid it for two years so she could keep getting child support, deserves the same rights as me or you? I don't, and I don't understand how anyone would.



imo, you are never allowed to not give a human human rights. people should always have their rights, no matter what thry have done. no matter how awful, disgusting and ****ed up they are they are still human and still deserve human rights.


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## Gregriii (Jul 29, 2016)

I don't think a rapist should get death penalty... at the end taking a life is worse than traumatizing one since the latter can be recovered...


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## Miii (Jul 29, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> imo, you are never allowed to not give a human human rights. people should always have their rights, no matter what thry have done. no matter how awful, disgusting and ****ed up they are they are still human and still deserve human rights.



But why? Why does someone that has completely disregarded the value of someone else's life, deserve to be valued and protected in return?


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## riummi (Jul 29, 2016)

I agree with it - sometimes you just can't let them live for what they've done. Some of them have no problem taking other people's lives so why would I care if they get theirs taken away. I just remember hearing about one case where some sick man raped a toddler...yeesh. If they truly regret their actions then let them live so that they can suffer from that.

There is no right answer so its kind of pointless to argue about whether it should be abolished or not.
Also, if they're born psychopaths who enjoy killing and feel no remorse what do we do with them?


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## Tensu (Jul 29, 2016)

Miii said:


> But why? Why does someone that has completely disregarded the value of someone else's life, deserve to be valued and protected in return?



*No one is saying the the said person should not be punished for his crime.* We are saying that *no one* has the right to take another's life. There are other forms of punishments you know. Just because the criminal killed another person does not make it ok for people to give him the death penalty.


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## visibleghost (Jul 29, 2016)

Miii said:


> But why? Why does someone that has completely disregarded the value of someone else's life, deserve to be valued and protected in return?



why do you get to take away that person's rights then? because they took away someone elses rights? Please. that's not a way to solve stuff, and not a way governments should act. if you think a thing someone does is wrong you don't give them a taste of their own medicine, you should instead be The Bigger Person and not do the same thing. especially when it comes to life and death situations and with human rights


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## Tensu (Jul 29, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> why do you get to take away that person's rights then? because they took away someone elses rights? Please. that's not a way to solve stuff, and not a way governments should act. if you think a thing someone does is wrong you don't give them a taste of their own medicine, you should instead be The Bigger Person and not do the same thing. especially when it comes to life and death situations and with human rights



Honestly, people who are for death punishment are just like small children who want revenge. "OWW HE HIT ME SO ITS OK FOR ME TO HIT HIM BACK!!" hell no. That won't solve anything! It is a crime that the said person killed someone *BUT* it is as much of a crime to deal capital punishment.


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## Cudon (Jul 29, 2016)

Miii said:


> But people that do something like rape an innocent child that has no possible way of defending themselves should absolutely die. Their life has no value at that point, and they no longer deserve the right to live and be happy like the people that don't commit the most vile kinds of crimes.


Not to be rude, but this part makes you come off as very vengeful.

Honestly a lot of you are putting a lot of emotions into this, you guys are oversimplifying things with your emotions.


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## visibleghost (Jul 29, 2016)

riummi said:


> I agree with it - sometimes you just can't let them live for what they've done. Some of them have no problem taking other people's lives so why would I care if they get theirs taken away. I just remember hearing about one case where some sick man raped a toddler...yeesh. If they truly regret their actions then let them live so that they can suffer from that.
> 
> There is no right answer so its kind of pointless to argue about whether it should be abolished or not.
> Also, if they're born psychopaths who enjoy killing and feel no remorse what do we do with them?



i mean ... a person's value isn't about how much regret, empathy and stuff like that someone feels? i'm pretty sure that if you show that you rly regret your actions you might get a shorter sentence but i'm not sure..??

but it's still the same crime, it doesn't matter that much if the person regrets it or not. they still killed another human. there's no law against not feeling remorse ... so why do you want to kill off those ppl
 also ... just saying but autistic ppl and ppl w/ similar difficulties wouldnt be very well off if u got desth penalty bc u didnt regret stuff Well Enough ... like, regretting something and feeling empathy (especially im the way most ppl thikk u should show it) isnt what should decide if you should live or die but idk ..


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## seliph (Jul 29, 2016)

Azure said:


> Honestly, people who are for death punishment are just like small children who want revenge. "OWW HE HIT ME SO ITS OK FOR ME TO HIT HIM BACK!!" hell no. That won't solve anything! It is a crime that the said person killed someone *BUT* it is as much of a crime to deal capital punishment.



I mean I see where you're trying to come from but comparing rape or mass murder to hitting someone is a bit of a stretch.
As for "the death penalty doesn't solve anything", it prevents the person from offending again so.


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## visibleghost (Jul 29, 2016)

nvll said:


> I mean I see where you're trying to come from but comparing rape or mass murder to hitting someone is a bit of a stretch.
> As for "the death penalty doesn't solve anything", it prevents the person from offending again so.



so does a life in prison sentence... but w/o killing anyone..


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## seliph (Jul 29, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> so does a life in prison sentence... but w/o killing anyone..



I agree I'm just saying that their claim isn't very correct.


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## Fleshy (Jul 29, 2016)

riummi said:


> Also, if they're born psychopaths who enjoy killing and feel no remorse what do we do with them?



Now, this is just a wild idea but maybe put them in prison for life?


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## riummi (Jul 29, 2016)

I just have to say that justifying things with "rights" and "wrongs" is subjective. Everyone has different ways of dealing with things - no need to say "your acting like a child" or "you should be the bigger person". Sure its good to be the bigger person but who honestly cares? I have a blurred line between morals and I'm not saying anyones wrong really.

- - - Post Merge - - -



FleshyBro said:


> Now, this is just a wild idea but maybe put them in prison for life?



but this leads to overcrowding so they might push out those with less severe crimes - who may commit them again


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## Fleshy (Jul 29, 2016)

riummi said:


> but this leads to overcrowding so they might push out those with less severe crimes - who may commit them again



So instead of attempting to fix prison and rehabilitation issues we should just kill people, nice.


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## Cudon (Jul 29, 2016)

nvll said:


> I mean I see where you're trying to come from but comparing rape or mass murder to hitting someone is a bit of a stretch.
> As for "the death penalty doesn't solve anything", it prevents the person from offending again so.


So does rehabilitation. Most of the time.

 But wasn't what Azure just said an analogy and not a direct comparison? Because if it is considered an analogy, it is a bit illogical of you to denounce it by saying the two things are too different in severity.


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## visibleghost (Jul 29, 2016)

riummi said:


> I just have to say that justifying things with "rights" and "wrongs" is subjective. Everyone has different ways of dealing with things - no need to say "your acting like a child" or "you should be the bigger person". Sure its good to be the bigger person but who honestly cares? I have a blurred line between morals and I'm not saying anyones wrong really.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



well, in the case i meant it was the actual government who should be the bigger "person". lol, idk but ??? governments shouldn't act like a 3 year old in a fight imo

and w/ the overcrowding issue, yes that's true. but more prisons and also not releasing people who are serving a life time sentence or are seen as risks..


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## Tensu (Jul 29, 2016)

nvll said:


> I mean I see where you're trying to come from but comparing rape or mass murder to hitting someone is a bit of a stretch.
> As for "the death penalty doesn't solve anything", it prevents the person from offending again so.



I get what you're saying, but wouldn't it be easier to just stick them in lifetime jail? I don't really see why we have to kill them.


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## mogyay (Jul 29, 2016)

i am against the death penalty


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## Charlise (Jul 29, 2016)

I don't believe in death penalty, only life sentences.


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## Alolan_Apples (Jul 29, 2016)

Miii said:


> I'm all for the death penalty. The worst and most dangerous people in our society shouldn't be allowed to keep living, as they'll only continue to cause problems and hurt the people that actually obey laws and give a **** about others. I don't think that a mother that drowns her 3 children in the bathtub should get to live the remainder of her (probably pretty long) life in a prison cell where she'll get to watch daytime tv and eat 3 meals a day. I also don't think pedophiles that permanently traumatize kids for the rest of their entire lives should get to continue living to potentially do that to more kids. People put vicious dogs to sleep; why not vicious (way more dangerous and way more intelligent) people?



At least someone agrees with me. I would actually be for expansion of it as well, but only to some extent. Not only it should apply to many cases of murder, but also to some cases of child abuse and animal cruelty. Unintentional neglect is inexusable, but that should only result in pets and kids being taken away and put up for adoption. Drug-induced abuse towards children and animals - jail time. Alcohol-induced abuse towards children and animals - jail time. Mental illness-induced abuse towards children and animals - rehabiliation time. Hate-induced abuse towards children and animals - that would warrant the death penalty, but it depends on the type of abuse. Physical abuse and sexual abuse out of hatred, extremely strict rules, and/or the parents/pet owners knew it was wrong to do it but still did it, I would be for the death penalty, even if the child and/or pets survive. Emotional abuse or neglect - jail time.

I know two wrongs don't make a right, but cruel and heinous people don't deserve the right to life.

Now if it's to punish those who killed others on accident, thieves, rapists, or assailants of other kind, the death penalty would be too much. Even life without parole, life with parole, or 50-year sentences would be too much.


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## riummi (Jul 29, 2016)

Azure said:


> I get what you're saying, but wouldn't it be easier to just stick them in lifetime jail? I don't really see why we have to kill them.



Correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not sure but aren't we essentially paying to keep them alive? I dont see any point in it to have them grow old and die in jail


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## seliph (Jul 29, 2016)

riummi said:


> I just have to say that justifying things with "rights" and "wrongs" is subjective. Everyone has different ways of dealing with things - no need to say "your acting like a child" or "you should be the bigger person". Sure its good to be the bigger person but who honestly cares? I have a blurred line between morals and I'm not saying anyones wrong really.



I have a huge problem with "be the bigger person" because it's often used as a like "let people walk all over you and take advantage of you without any consequences"

Not saying it's being used like that in this thread but.... yeah I just hate the mentality that's usually behind it



Dinomates said:


> So does rehabilitation. Most of the time.
> 
> But wasn't what Azure just said an analogy and not a direct comparison? Because if it is considered an analogy, it is a bit illogical of you to denounce it by saying the two things are too different in severity.



But they are immensely different in severity....... what


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## Tensu (Jul 29, 2016)

Apple2012 said:


> I know two wrongs don't make a right, but cruel and heinous people don't deserve the right to life.



Everyone deserves the right to life. No one has the right to take a life from you. Not the killer or the person dealing the punishment. No one.


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## visibleghost (Jul 29, 2016)

riummi said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not sure but aren't we essentially paying to keep them alive? I dont see any point in it to have them grow old and die in jail



 saving money is important, but killing people to save money isn't reslly ??? a good way to save money ??


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## Reindeer (Jul 29, 2016)

nvll said:


> But they are immensely different in severity....... what


are you incapable of understanding analogies


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## seliph (Jul 29, 2016)

Azure said:


> I get what you're saying, but wouldn't it be easier to just stick them in lifetime jail? I don't really see why we have to kill them.



Honestly I don't know what's easier 'cause I don't know what the process is

- - - Post Merge - - -



Reindeer said:


> are you incapable of understanding analogies



Are you incapable of maybe explaining a situation rather than being condescending


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## visibleghost (Jul 29, 2016)

nvll said:


> I have a huge problem with "be the bigger person" because it's often used as a like "let people walk all over you and take advantage of you without any consequences"
> 
> Not saying it's being used like that in this thread but.... yeah I just hate the mentality that's usually behind it
> 
> ...



that's true (i rly hate when ppl basically tell others to let bullies bully them because doing snything is Just As Bad As Them)
but in my example i was talking about the government and law and society n stuff should bbe the bigger person. we can't have a system that used petty revenge stuff ,, like that's not v cool at All


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## Tensu (Jul 29, 2016)

nvll said:


> Honestly I don't know what's easier 'cause I don't know what the process is



It's just that it's morally wrong to kill someone. Even if they deserve it.


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## seliph (Jul 29, 2016)

Azure said:


> It's just that it's morally wrong to kill someone. Even if they deserve it.



Morals are subjective though.


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## f11 (Jul 29, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> that's true (i rly hate when ppl basically tell others to let bullies bully them because doing snything is Just As Bad As Them)
> but in my example i was talking about the government and law and society n stuff should bbe the bigger person. we can't have a system that used petty revenge stuff ,, like that's not v cool at All


so me wanting the person who raped me and ruined my life to die is petty revenge??? alright.


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## visibleghost (Jul 29, 2016)

nvll said:


> Morals are subjective though.



well ok but everyone has human rights.. n life is one of them ..


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## Alolan_Apples (Jul 29, 2016)

Azure said:


> Everyone deserves the right to life. No one has the right to take a life from you. Not the killer or the person dealing the punishment. No one.



Sorry to say, but I'm not very soft on these types of people.


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## Reindeer (Jul 29, 2016)

nvll said:


> Are you incapable of maybe explaining a situation rather than being condescending


Azure never said that hitting a person is as bad as raping or killing a person. They were using an analogy to explain the faulty logic.
A person going "they hit me so I'm going to hit them back" sounds very similar to "they killed a person so we're going to kill them back". The post they responded to at the time was the same "eye for an eye" logic, hence the use of a simple and appropriate analogy.


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## Tensu (Jul 29, 2016)

nvll said:


> Morals are subjective though.



People are for capital punishment because they killed someone so they deserve death. However, this is going against what they're saying. If it's not ok for the killer to kill someone, it's not ok for ANYONE to kill anyone. Morals are morals no matter the circumstances. No one has the right to murder.


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## visibleghost (Jul 29, 2016)

Apple2012 said:


> Sorry to say, but I'm not very soft on these types of people.



w "these types", do u mean killers and rapists etc?

becuase,  like.  no offense but they sre humsns.... and have human rights.. and human rights can't be taken from u because you "don't deserve them"..,,.


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## mogyay (Jul 29, 2016)

as long as the justice system is failing people then you simply can't send someone to their death, the system isn't infallible, it's often corrupt and biased and i'm not willing to send one innocent person to die, i don't think that's right


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## Miii (Jul 29, 2016)

Azure said:


> *No one is saying the the said person should not be punished for his crime.* We are saying that *no one* has the right to take another's life. There are other forms of punishments you know. Just because the criminal killed another person does not make it ok for people to give him the death penalty.



I understand that there are other forms of punishment, and I'm not saying that every person that kills someone should be sentenced to death. If you kill someone in a drunk driving accident, I think you should get a lengthy prison sentence, and have time to reflect on the poor choice you made by choosing to drink and drive (because you had no intent to kill someone). If you, on the other hand, kill your two kids in front of your other two kids, cut them into pieces, and put them in them in the freezer for two years so you can keep earning money off them, then you no longer deserve rights, sympathy, pity, help or anything else. At that point, you're a burden to the rest of us that have to live knowing your psychotic ass is out there.


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## visibleghost (Jul 29, 2016)

improper said:


> so me wanting the person who raped me and ruined my life to die is petty revenge??? alright.



no. personal opinions =/= what a government should do.

believe me, i have ppl i want dead too. it's okay forcme to hate them and want them dead. but if the government kills them for **** they did to me, then that's petty revenge .


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## Tensu (Jul 29, 2016)

Apple2012 said:


> Sorry to say, but I'm not very soft on these types of people.



I don't like them either, but they're still human and deserve rights.


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## visibleghost (Jul 29, 2016)

Miii said:


> I understand that there are other forms of punishment, and I'm not saying that every person that kills someone should be sentenced to death. If you kill someone in a drunk driving accident, I think you should get a lengthy prison sentence, and have time to reflect on the poor choice you made by choosing to drink and drive (because you had no intent to kill someone). If you, on the other hand, kill your two kids in front of your other two kids, cut them into pieces, and put them in them in the freezer for two years so you can keep earning money off them, then you no longer deserve rights, sympathy, pity, help or anything else. At that point, you're a burden to the rest of us that have to live knowing your psychotic ass is out there.


slow down w/ the ableism would ya?

yes the second thing is worse But . still a human w/ human eights, even tho theyre a horrible person.


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## Alolan_Apples (Jul 29, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> w "these types", do u mean killers and rapists etc?
> 
> becuase,  like.  no offense but they sre humans.... and have human rights.. and human rights can't be taken from u because you "don't deserve them"..,,.



What I mean is what I talked about in that long post. Accidental killers and rapists don't have enough potent for that, but I'm talking first-degree murderers, second-degree murderers, the child abusers and animal abusers that commit physical abuse out of hate, war criminals, and terrorists.

It's not that it's immoral to punish people with death, but it's rather unethical.


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## Miii (Jul 29, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> why do you get to take away that person's rights then? because they took away someone elses rights? Please. that's not a way to solve stuff, and not a way governments should act. if you think a thing someone does is wrong you don't give them a taste of their own medicine, you should instead be The Bigger Person and not do the same thing. especially when it comes to life and death situations and with human rights



Unfortunately being the bigger person isn't always the best option. If a person is doing something that could could potentially earn them the death sentence (like stabbing a bunch of disabled people in Japan), then they deserve it. They don't deserve anything less than to be put down. Humans are highly intelligent, and when they decide stabbing people to death is okay, they're incredibly dangerous. Why let someone like that continue to live and risk them doing that to more people?


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## boujee (Jul 29, 2016)

I've always liked the concept of an eye for an eye, but that's mostly because I don't have any symphanty for specific things.
Anyone who's actually seen the courts in action wouldn't have enough confidence in them to give them the power to decide whether someone should live or die.

The system is vastly inefficient and there would be no way to make it more efficient that did not involve deliberately and knowingly executing a certain percentage of innocent people, or at least people whose crime doesn't merit being killed by the state.
Spending millions to determine whether some random drug dealer who shot another drug dealer should be put away for life or executed is just not an efficient use of money and resources.

It's unethical to waste money just so someone's modern enactment of lex talionis can be satisfied.

If killing innocent people is so terrible that the only proper punishment is death, then anyone willing to work on death row should be put to death themselves. But the statement does come to play towards those who really want to change than someone who doesn't. I'm thinking of the Japanese cannibal and some other killer who killed kids and ate them but he tried to justify his actions because what he was doing wasn't taboo to other countries. He was sent to be executed and his finally words were "why am I here? I did nothing wrong".

I have to find the source. Also there's a show about inmates on death row and they go in debt in how they feel about themselves and their crimes.


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## seliph (Jul 29, 2016)

Azure said:


> People are for capital punishment because they killed someone so they deserve death. However, this is going against what they're saying. If it's not ok for the killer to kill someone, it's not ok for ANYONE to kill anyone. Morals are morals no matter the circumstances. No one has the right to murder.



Morals are someone's personal beliefs in what is right or wrong, they are not universal.

Your morals are that no one should be killed ever even if they have killed. Cory's are murderers should be put to death by the law. Mine are that I think sex offenders deserve to die (granted I'm still not exactly for the death penalty considering how flawed legal systems are).

Using morals as an argument in this is kind of unproductive


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## Tensu (Jul 29, 2016)

Miii said:


> I understand that there are other forms of punishment, and I'm not saying that every person that kills someone should be sentenced to death. If you kill someone in a drunk driving accident, I think you should get a lengthy prison sentence, and have time to reflect on the poor choice you made by choosing to drink and drive (because you had no intent to kill someone). If you, on the other hand, kill your two kids in front of your other two kids, cut them into pieces, and put them in them in the freezer for two years so you can keep earning money off them, then you no longer deserve rights, sympathy, pity, help or anything else. At that point, you're a burden to the rest of us that have to live knowing your psychotic ass is out there.



No matter how horrible what they've done is. No one has a right to take their life.


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## seliph (Jul 29, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> w "these types", do u mean killers and rapists etc?
> 
> becuase,  like.  no offense but they sre humsns.... and have human rights.. and human rights can't be taken from u because you "don't deserve them"..,,.



rapists don't deserve the title of "humans" in my opinion


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## visibleghost (Jul 29, 2016)

Miii said:


> Unfortunately being the bigger person isn't always the best option. If a person is doing something that could could potentially earn them the death sentence (like stabbing a bunch of disabled people in Japan), then they deserve it. They don't deserve anything less than to be put down. Humans are highly intelligent, and when they decide stabbing people to death is okay, they're incredibly dangerous. Why let someone like that continue to live and risk them doing that to more people?



locking them up in a prison is a pretty great way to make them stop killing ppl..


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## Gregriii (Jul 29, 2016)

lol if morals are subjective then raping or killing are also subjective?


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## boujee (Jul 29, 2016)

Isn't there a quote about a man who kills is ready to die?


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## visibleghost (Jul 29, 2016)

nvll said:


> rapists don't deserve the title of "humans" in my opinion



cool but ur opinion is im my opinion incredibly dsngerous. if many ppl had that opinion i would be very scared about what would happen  w stuff in the world.

rapists get prison. that's enough. have your personal hatred but pls don't try o make the state n law n stuff kill rapists k thx


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## Tensu (Jul 29, 2016)

nvll said:


> Morals are someone's personal beliefs in what is right or wrong, they are not universal.
> 
> Your morals are that no one should be killed ever even if they have killed. Cory's are murderers should be put to death by the law. Mine are that I think sex offenders deserve to die (granted I'm still not exactly for the death penalty considering how flawed legal systems are).
> 
> Using morals as an argument in this is kind of unproductive



You're right. Everyone has their own beliefs. And that is what this discussion is about. Our beliefs on capital punishment... so how is it unproductive...?


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## Miii (Jul 29, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> slow down w/ the ableism would ya?
> 
> yes the second thing is worse But . still a human w/ human eights, even tho theyre a horrible person.



Ableism??? Are you serious? How was that ableist? I wasn't saying that handicapped people are a burden, I was saying that vicious murderers are a burden to all the nice, law abiding people that don't kill their children, rape others or stab them to death!!!


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## visibleghost (Jul 29, 2016)

Miii said:


> Ableism??? Are you serious? How was that ableist? I wasn't saying that handicapped people are a burden, I was saying that vicious murderers are a burden to all the nice, law abiding people that don't kill their children, rape others or stab them to death!!!



sorry but my sjw vision made me see the way u used psychotic and decided it was Ableist.


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## Cudon (Jul 29, 2016)

Miii said:


> Ableism??? Are you serious? How was that ableist? I wasn't saying that handicapped people are a burden, I was saying that vicious murderers are a burden to all the nice, law abiding people that don't kill their children, rape others or stab them to death!!!


I think your negative wording of psychopaths might have come off as 'ableist' to him?


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## seliph (Jul 29, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> cool but ur opinion is im my opinion incredibly dsngerous. if many ppl had that opinion i would be very scared about what would happen  w stuff in the world.
> 
> rapists get prison. that's enough. have your personal hatred but pls don't try o make the state n law n stuff kill rapists k thx



And in my opinion your opinion is dangerous and trivializes victims.

Don't worry I doubt anyone in law is going to see the opinion of one mentally ill 21 year old on the internet and go "HE'S RIGHT! KILL ALL RAPISTS!"


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## Miii (Jul 29, 2016)

Azure said:


> No matter how horrible what they've done is. No one has a right to take their life.



But if they choose to take another life, then why is it not okay to end theirs??? I don't get it! I mean I used to be against it, so I kind of do get it, but things like this are minor surgery until they affect you directly, I guess.

Say that someone came into your home and murdered your entire family because they wanted to get away with stealing all your valuable material possessions without having a witness. Things like that happen. Would you still think that person's life is valuable and deserving of protection? Would you honestly still think they deserved to live just because they're human?


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## seliph (Jul 29, 2016)

Azure said:


> You're right. Everyone has their own beliefs. And that is what this discussion is about. Our beliefs on capital punishment... so how is it unproductive...?



From what I understand you're seeing people say "I think x should be killed" and going "BUT MORALS!", and that's where it's unproductive because their morals are clearly a bit different from yours.


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## Tensu (Jul 29, 2016)

Miii said:


> But if they choose to take another life, then why is it not okay to end theirs??? I don't get it! I mean I used to be against it, so I kind of do get it, but things like this are minor surgery until they affect you directly, I guess.
> 
> Say that someone came into your home and murdered your entire family because they wanted to get away with stealing all your valuable material possessions without having a witness. Things like that happen. Would you still think that person's life is valuable and deserving of protection? Would you honestly still think they deserved to live just because they're human?



Refer back to my analogy of small children. Revenge does not make it right. I get what you're saying, though


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## Cudon (Jul 29, 2016)

But nvll, isn't it a bit of a contradicting thing to specifically want all rapists dead and not the people doing generally thought to be worse crimes? I mean you're free to think that but please acknowledge that it's 100% created by your feelings.


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## visibleghost (Jul 29, 2016)

Miii said:


> But if they choose to take another life, then why is it not okay to end theirs??? I don't get it! I mean I used to be against it, so I kind of do get it, but things like this are minor surgery until they affect you directly, I guess.
> 
> Say that someone came into your home and murdered your entire family because they wanted to get away with stealing all your valuable material possessions without having a witness. Things like that happen. Would you still think that person's life is valuable and deserving of protection? Would you honestly still think they deserved to live just because they're human?



personal opinion, personal hatred. not something a government or the law feels.


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## mogyay (Jul 29, 2016)

Miii said:


> But if they choose to take another life, then why is it not okay to end theirs??? I don't get it! I mean I used to be against it, so I kind of do get it, but things like this are minor surgery until they affect you directly, I guess.
> 
> Say that someone came into your home and murdered your entire family because they wanted to get away with stealing all your valuable material possessions without having a witness. Things like that happen. Would you still think that person's life is valuable and deserving of protection? Would you honestly still think they deserved to live just because they're human?



some would argue it's hypocritical, it's not ok because you are doing the exact same thing they have done. it's absolutely not the same context but it's still a flawed reason. imo killing them is essentially letting them get away with their crimes though. wouldn't you rather see them have to live their life without rights or human interaction? i know that i would rather end my own life than have to live with what i have done if i killed someone. i would rather argue for actual life imprisonment for people as it means they're truly punished for what they have done


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## Shawna (Jul 29, 2016)

I disagree with it.


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## Gregriii (Jul 29, 2016)

we don't even know what death is so we shouldnt send people there bc they wont come back


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## Tensu (Jul 29, 2016)

nvll said:


> From what I understand you're seeing people say "I think x should be killed" and going "BUT MORALS!", and that's where it's unproductive because their morals are clearly a bit different from yours.



I'm not the one that said morals are unproductive. Everyone should respect other's beliefs.


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## moonford (Jul 29, 2016)

I'm against it.

Instead I'd rather they suffer and rot until they eventually die.

Speaking generally about rapists, murderers, e.t.c.



@Nvll you're great. c: (I'm being genuine btw)


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## Xerolin (Jul 29, 2016)

tom pls 
But like I said earlier, *mass* rapists/ murderers should get the death sentance, those who did it once should be put in prison, and those why killed in self defense should get little to no charge, with exceptions


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## Tensu (Jul 29, 2016)

You're not helping stop rapists by killing them off. Educating them and teaching them to be better will make a difference, and killing them is just morally wrong.


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## seliph (Jul 29, 2016)

Dinomates said:


> But nvll, isn't it a bit of a contradicting thing to specifically want all rapists dead and not the people doing generally thought to be worse crimes? I mean you're free to think that but please acknowledge that it's 100% created by your feelings.



I think other criminals deserve it as well so... no?

Also thoughts that are influenced by feelings are not any less valid nor any more "illogical" considering the left-brain/right-brain nonsense has been debunked a long time ago so talk about unproductiveness...


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## Fleshy (Jul 29, 2016)

Miii said:


> Ableism??? Are you serious? How was that ableist?



Psychotic is a medical term used to refer to severely mentally ill people who experence psychosis, not a synonym for violent murderer.


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## Cudon (Jul 29, 2016)

nvll said:


> I think other criminals deserve it as well so... no?
> 
> Also thoughts that are influenced by feelings are not any less valid nor any more "illogical" considering the left-brain/right-brain nonsense has been debunked a long time ago so talk about unproductiveness...


I meant that your opinion is not factually reasoned, because it's entirely backed up by how you feel and not by fact that all rapists should die.


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## Miii (Jul 29, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> personal opinion, personal hatred. not something a government or the law feels.



True, but they do get to set up laws that punish people for their actions. Those punishments include capital punishment.


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## Miii (Jul 29, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> Psychotic is a medical term used to refer to severely mentally ill people who experence psychosis, not a synonym for violent murderer.



Yes I realize that captain obvious. Sorry for using a word incorrectly.


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## mogyay (Jul 29, 2016)

Miii said:


> Yes I realize that captain obvious. Sorry for using a word incorrectly.



if you realised it then you shouldn't have used it


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## seliph (Jul 29, 2016)

Dinomates said:


> I meant that your opinion is not factually reasoned, because it's entirely backed up by how you feel and not by fact that all rapists should die.



And the people saying "but rapists/murderers/etc are people too" and "I don't think anyone deserves to die" aren't basing that on how they feel? Ok.


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## Mercedes (Jul 29, 2016)

nintendofan85 said:


> Honestly, I don't know, but I'd say that I'm for it in certain circumstances. It depends on the level of the crime. For example, if it was a murder (especially a mass one), I would probably be for it, but anything less than that, no.



Or maybe one murder? I think child molesters should get it too. Js


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## seliph (Jul 29, 2016)

Miii said:


> Yes I realize that captain obvious. Sorry for using a word incorrectly.



Can you ever apologize without being like _that_ about it



Azure said:


> Mods be with us





Whiteflamingo said:


> Mod squad where u at?



Why? Nothing's up in flames, this thread doesn't need any more post quality reports so maybe don't do that.


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## Stalfos (Jul 29, 2016)

It's not about the people getting fried, it's about the people who thirst for blood.
Violence will lead to more violence and death will lead to more death.
We need to be better than that.


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## Fleshy (Jul 29, 2016)

nah


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## Gregriii (Jul 29, 2016)

nvll said:


> And the people saying "but rapists/murderers/etc are people too" and "I don't think anyone deserves to die" aren't basing that on how they feel? Ok.



No cause... they are people... like... they are actually people wether you want it or not?????


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## Miii (Jul 29, 2016)

mogyay said:


> some would argue it's hypocritical, it's not ok because you are doing the exact same thing they have done. it's absolutely not the same context but it's still a flawed reason. imo killing them is essentially letting them get away with their crimes though. wouldn't you rather see them have to live their life without rights or human interaction? i know that i would rather end my own life than have to live with what i have done if i killed someone. i would rather argue for actual life imprisonment for people as it means they're truly punished for what they have done



It is kind of hypocritical, and I acknowledge that, but for some people who have committed certain crimes, it may very well be a better option than paying for them to live in prison for the rest of their lives. Again, I don't think the death penalty should be considered for most crimes; only the worst. If someone completely disregards the life of another person, and kills them in a horrible manner (like stabbing them to death), then I don't think they should get to live after that. They won't feel bad like you would; you're a normal human being that doesn't have violent intentions. How you would feel about it can't be applied to someone that has shown that they're capable and willing to murder people.


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## visibleghost (Jul 29, 2016)

Miii said:


> True, but they do get to set up laws that punish people for their actions. Those punishments include capital punishment.



those punishments could also be making ppl eat spiders and go around naked on their knees in public with underwear on their head. not  a good punishment that djould be used tho, just like death penalty


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## Fleshy (Jul 29, 2016)

By agreeing with the death penalty you too are "okay with murder".


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## Miii (Jul 29, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> those punishments could also be making ppl eat spiders and go around naked on their knees in public with underwear on their head. not  a good punishment that djould be used tho, just like death penalty



The death penalty is a permanent solution to an individuals tendency to commit horrific violent crimes, though. Humiliating them is not.


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## Cudon (Jul 29, 2016)

nvll said:


> And the people saying "but rapists/murderers/etc are people too" and "I don't think anyone deserves to die" aren't basing that on how they feel? Ok.


Well in a way some are, but they're not wrong are they? I mean surely you don't think that every rapist/murderer is a cartoon villain and has no humanity or background to them? Although ''deserves to die'' is quite based on personal opinion and morals, I agree


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## mogyay (Jul 29, 2016)

Miii said:


> It is kind of hypocritical, and I acknowledge that, but for some people who have committed certain crimes, it may very well be a better option than paying for them to live in prison for the rest of their lives. Again, I don't think the death penalty should be considered for most crimes; only the worst. If someone completely disregards the life of another person, and kills them in a horrible manner (like stabbing them to death), then I don't think they should get to live after that. They won't feel bad like you would; you're a normal human being that doesn't have violent intentions. How you would feel about it can't be applied to someone that has shown that they're capable and willing to murder people.



if you won't give someone the chance to repent then they can't, maybe they shouldn't be allowed to repent but that's the only way humankind can begin to learn imo. and let them repent in prison i'm not saying let them out that's another discussion that i don't know the answer to

- - - Post Merge - - -



Miii said:


> The death penalty is a permanent solution to an individuals tendency to commit horrific violent crimes, though. Humiliating them is not.



a permanent solution that has many cases of the person being innocent. are you willing to risk one person's life for someone elses? if so then u live with the moral consequences as i don't want to


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## jiny (Jul 29, 2016)

im against it, but i guess it depends on the crime


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## seliph (Jul 29, 2016)

Dinomates said:


> Well in a way some are, but they're not wrong are they? I mean surely you don't think that every rapist/murderer is a cartoon villain and has no humanity or background to them? Although ''deserves to die'' is quite based on personal opinion and morals, I agree



I think every rapist is infinitely worse than a cartoon villain and has no humanity to them tbh.

Murderers is where it gets cloudy 'cause I don't know if you're counting people who had to kill as self-defense or to protect someone else and whatnot as murderers too.


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## Miii (Jul 29, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> By agreeing with the death penalty you too are "okay with murder".



Yes, I'm okay with ending the life of someone that has willingly ended the life of someone else. I'll admit that. What separates me from the kind of person that deserves the death penalty is my actions. I have no intention of harming someone else, even if it could immensely benefit me, because I value the lives of people that also have no desire to unnecessarily harm others. I've never stabbed someone, never raped someone, never harmed a child, or anything of that nature.


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## Tensu (Jul 29, 2016)

I'm am honestly scared that so many people are ok with killing other people. Killing is wrong under all circumstances.


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## Fleshy (Jul 29, 2016)

A question to people who  _agree_ with the death penalty, if someone kills the person who killed their mother, should they be sentenced to death? If someone kills an intruder in their home, should they be sentenced to death? If someone kills the person who abused them, should they be sentenced to death?...

If we start to excuse some motives for murder, where do we draw the line? The lines are blurred, that's not something we should mess with.


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## Gregriii (Jul 29, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> A question to people who  _agree_ with the death penalty, if someone kills the person who killed their mother, should they be sentenced to death? If someone kills an intruder in their home, should they be sentenced to death? If someone kills the person who abused them, should they be sentenced to death?...
> 
> If we start to excuse some motives for murder, where do we draw the line? The lines are blurred, that's not something we should mess with.



Id say most of the people agree with psychopaths THAT HAVE COMMITED MURDER getting killed


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## Cudon (Jul 29, 2016)

nvll said:


> I think every rapist is infinitely worse than a cartoon villain and has no humanity to them tbh.
> 
> Murderers is where it gets cloudy 'cause I don't know if you're counting people who had to kill as self-defense or to protect someone else and whatnot as murderers too.


You're just proving my point you know.. Anyway even if I was counting only those who murder for the sake of murdering, those are humans too and have human qualities, such as emotions, a past, personalities, reasonings and things you can probably pity them for. 

I personally think it's rather dangerous to forget that even bad people are human beings and not just monsters, since it just gives an excuse to forget empathy and to think in a very black and white way. Whether you like it or not, Hitler was a human being with all these human qualities. Him killing quite a few people doesn't change that.


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## mogyay (Jul 29, 2016)

Gregriii said:


> Id say most of the people agree with psychopaths getting killed



most psychopaths don't commit murder...


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## Gregriii (Jul 29, 2016)

mogyay said:


> most psychopaths don't commit murder...


I mean those who murder


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## zoetrope (Jul 29, 2016)

Capital punishment needs to be abolished.


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## moonford (Jul 29, 2016)

Gregriii said:


> Id say most of the people agree with psychopaths getting killed



I don't, they need help. That's ignorant.


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## Reindeer (Jul 29, 2016)

nvll said:


> I think every rapist is infinitely worse than a cartoon villain and has no humanity to them tbh.


Every rapist? So even those that are forced to rape others? Don't forget that rape has been used as a weapon of war as well, and there are cases of people being forced to rape others in order to protect themselves and/or their loved ones. These rapists are in turn victims themselves.

Your thinking is shallow and dangerous.


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## Jeremy (Jul 29, 2016)

Hi all, please remember to respect the opinions of others even if you strongly disagree with them. There is no need to attack someone for having a different opinion and there are always perfectly calm ways to discuss topics like this. Furthermore, please do not post things like "where are the mods," "this thread should be closed," etc. If you see a post that breaks the rules, please simply report it and we will look into it. Thank you.


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## seliph (Jul 29, 2016)

mogyay said:


> most psychopaths don't commit murder...











Reindeer said:


> Every rapist? So even those that are forced to rape others? Don't forget that rape has been used as a weapon of war as well, and *there are cases of people being forced to rape others in order to protect themselves and/or their loved ones.* These rapists are in turn victims themselves.
> 
> Your thinking is shallow and dangerous.



If the person was held at gunpoint and forced to rape someone obviously I'm not talking about them good lord. In that case the person doing the forcing should be called the rapist.

I don't know what you're talking about with the bolded


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## oath2order (Jul 29, 2016)

Honestly, I'm against the death penalty. The costs of the death penalty are ridiculous. There are automatic appeals that happen, there are habeas corpus petitions to the state, there are habeas corpus petitions to the federal government, and throughout all of this, you have to pay for incarceration.

I live in Maryland. It cost Maryland $186 million for the five executions it did between 1976 and 2005. It cost Maryland an addition $71 million for cases that sought the death penalty but did not actually get it.

This money could have gone elsewhere, it could have gone to crime prevention programs, to education, to literally anything else that might have stopped someone from becoming a murderer.

I don't think we should have the death penalty. It's not an effective deterrent for crime. It doesn't scare off potential criminals by making them think "hey if I do this they might kill me." That's not the case at all.

America has had issues with the death penalty. Black people get sentenced to death more often than white people, poor people get sentenced to death almost exclusively over the upper class, we've executed the mentally ill despite knowing that they were mentally ill, and we've executed people based on shoddy testimony (Look at the Troy Davis case, that was a massive miscarriage of justice).

When it comes to killing, I don't think we should put people murderers to death, with the exception of those who commit mass shootings or other terror acts.

I think it's far easier for us to lock away a rapist or a murderer and just let them suffer in prison.


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## Reindeer (Jul 29, 2016)

nvll said:


> I don't know what you're talking about with the bolded


Basically, people that were told "rape this girl or your family dies".

My point is that there's always a story behind why and how things happened. Like your example of people that might kill out of self-defense, people could also have involuntary circumstances where they end up raping a person, even if it's something they don't agree with (I believe someone earlier in the thread mentioned peer pressure). Yet with what you said, you don't appear to see these nuances, but in black and white when it comes to sexual violence.
That's also what makes it so dangerous. At which point, to you and others that support the death penalty for rapists, are such people not rapists and victims of others instead?


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## Miii (Jul 29, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> A question to people who  _agree_ with the death penalty, if someone kills the person who killed their mother, should they be sentenced to death? If someone kills an intruder in their home, should they be sentenced to death? If someone kills the person who abused them, should they be sentenced to death?...
> 
> If we start to excuse some motives for murder, where do we draw the line? The lines are blurred, that's not something we should mess with.



If they kill the person that killed their mom, no they shouldn't be sentenced to death; they should get jail time and a hefty fine for breaking the law, and to set an example for others in that situation, so they don't see that revenge based crime going unpunished. 

If they kill an intruder in their home, they definitely shouldn't be sentenced to death. Of course this depends on the situation, but in some cases, I wouldn't even say they should get prison time for that. If someone breaks into your home, you don't know what their intentions are; they could be there just to steal from you, but they could also be there to kill you and everyone else in the house and then steal from you. If they don't want to risk being shot, they shouldn't break into someone's house in the first place.

As for killing the person that's abusing you, what their punishment should be depends on the situation. If you kill them while they're actively physically harming you, then that's self defense. If you wait until they're asleep, then kill them, it's premeditated murder, which they'd get jail time for. If you kill someone in self defense, no, you should not get the death penalty. If you kill someone that has abused you while they're not actively abusing you, I'd say you should get prison time and a fine (which is what they would get, anyway).


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## Gregriii (Jul 29, 2016)

Whiteflamingo said:


> I don't, they need help. That's ignorant.



I mean those who have killed, and yes, I'm putting all the murderers into the "psychopath" group nd it an be somewhat ignorant. Yes I know u dont need to be a psychopath to kill

but what kind of person kills without any motive? A pyschopath? And those Id say are the ones who should get killed by death penalti

Idk If I explained myself but oh well



nvll said:


> blah blah



Can you and stop asuming all the things I say are bait? Thanks sweetie


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## seliph (Jul 29, 2016)

Reindeer said:


> Basically, people that were told "rape this girl or your family dies".
> 
> My point is that there's always a story behind why and how things happened. Like your example of people that might kill out of self-defense, people could also have involuntary circumstances where they end up raping a person, even if it's something they don't agree with (I believe someone earlier in the thread mentioned peer pressure). Yet with what you said, you don't appear to see these nuances, but in black and white when it comes to sexual violence.
> That's also what makes it so dangerous. At which point, to you and others that support the death penalty for rapists, are such people not rapists and victims of others instead?



Me multiple times throughout the thread: I don't really support the death penalty but I believe some people deserve to die
Yall: why do u defend the death penalty!!!!

Anyways in that case I'd put it the same way as before, the person holding them hostage or forcing them to do whatever is the offender and they deserve the title of rapist.


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## riummi (Jul 29, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> A question to people who  _agree_ with the death penalty, if someone kills the person who killed their mother, should they be sentenced to death? If someone kills an intruder in their home, should they be sentenced to death? If someone kills the person who abused them, should they be sentenced to death?...
> 
> If we start to excuse some motives for murder, where do we draw the line? The lines are blurred, that's not something we should mess with.



well ofc it matters on whether or not it was self defense. I'm not saying that every crime involving murder/killing someone deserves a death penalty. I think those that kill just for fun with no reason at all should get the death penalty. Everything else is up for debate in my opinion.


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## mogyay (Jul 29, 2016)

Gregriii said:


> I mean those who have killed, and yes, I'm putting all the murderers into the "psychopath" group nd it an be somewhat ignorant. Yes I know u dont need to be a psychopath to kill
> 
> but what kind of person kills without any motive? A pyschopath? And those Id say are the ones who should get killed by death penalti
> 
> ...



ye for once i think you're actually just that ignorant and think psychopath = murder


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## Gregriii (Jul 29, 2016)

mogyay said:


> ye for once i think you're actually just that ignorant and think psychopath = murder



you read that wrong oopsie

I said killers without any reason at all are psychopaths


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## Cory (Jul 29, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> By agreeing with the death penalty you too are "okay with murder".



What? It's murder for a good reason.


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## Fleshy (Jul 29, 2016)

Cory said:


> What? It's murder for a good reason.



It's still murder. Murderers will often say they killed for good reason. As people have said many times, morality and reasoning are subjective.


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## Tensu (Jul 29, 2016)

Cory said:


> What? It's murder for a good reason.



Not really. It would be cheaper and more effective to educate the person in prison rather to have them killed, which is equally wrong as what the jailed person did.


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## Miii (Jul 29, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> It's still murder. Murderers will often say they killed for good reason. As people have said many times, morality and reasoning are subjective.



They are subjective, but again, why let someone that's done something terrible like stabbing a bunch of people (ugh this is getting repetitive) keep living only to have to pay for them to be alive, and to risk them being able to do what they did again? Why not take that threat away permanently, and eliminate the worst, most violent people in our society?

- - - Post Merge - - -



Azure said:


> Not really. It would be cheaper and more effective to educate the person in prison rather to have them killed, which is equally wrong as what the jailed person did.



Educate them??? Surely anyone that murders another person (not in self defense), knows that what they're doing wrong. They know it's wrong, and choose to try and get away with it anyway. I mean I hate to say you're not giving a criminal enough credit, but damn. They can't be that stupid.


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## Cory (Jul 29, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> It's still murder. Murderers will often say they killed for good reason. As people have said many times, morality and reasoning are subjective.



What a good reason besides self-defense?


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## oath2order (Jul 29, 2016)

Cory said:


> What a good reason besides self-defense?



Good reasoning is subjective.


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## Tensu (Jul 29, 2016)

Miii said:


> They are subjective, but again, why let someone that's done something terrible like stabbing a bunch of people (ugh this is getting repetitive) keep living only to have to pay for them to be alive, and to risk them being able to do what they did again? Why not take that threat away permanently, and eliminate the worst, most violent people in our society?



First of all. You are not "paying extra to keep them alive". It actually costs more to kill them. Read below.


oath2order said:


> I live in Maryland. It cost Maryland $186 million for the five executions it did between 1976 and 2005. It cost Maryland an addition $71 million for cases that sought the death penalty but did not actually get it.
> 
> This money could have gone elsewhere, it could have gone to crime prevention programs, to education, to literally anything else that might have stopped someone from becoming a murderer.



Second, it would be a lot easier to "eliminate the worst, most violent people in our society" by educating them. It is more cost-effective and subjectively morally just to many people.


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## Cudon (Jul 29, 2016)

Miii said:


> They are subjective, but again, why let someone that's done something terrible like stabbing a bunch of people (ugh this is getting repetitive) keep living only to have to pay for them to be alive, and to risk them being able to do what they did again? Why not take that threat away permanently, and eliminate the worst, most violent people in our society?
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...


Can you say for sure that the death penalty is cheaper to do than just letting people rot in jail though? Cuz pretty sure someone just a lil bit ago made the death penalty sound raather costly and inefficient. Also rehabilitation is a possibility and as far as I'm aware it works and is used for a reason. 

And actually no, some people have a really skewed sense of reality and might not think it's wrong. They might also think what they're doing is justified through some flawed logic or a weird sense of reality. Let's use the person who stabbed a bunch of mentally ill people as an example. He said he did it since he felt bad for the mentally ill. 

Some criminals can also be taught to think and act a certain way by their parents, which can lead to them having a ****ed up way of thinking. For example, if some family decided to teach their male child that it is 100% okay to treat females as objects, the child would have a rather high likelihood of growing up to think this. There are legit people out there who think that raping females is okay because females are property to them.


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## Cory (Jul 29, 2016)

Azure said:


> First of all. You are not "paying extra to keep them alive". It actually costs more to kill them. Read below.
> 
> 
> Second, it would be a lot easier to "eliminate the worst, most violent people in our society" by educating them. It is more cost-effective and subjectively morally just to many people.



They won't get educated. That's extremely ineffective. Most of the time they're in phases in and out of prison because they get pressured by other prisoners to do bad things unless they are in solitary, but you can't put all prisoners in solitary.


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## Gregriii (Jul 29, 2016)

Azure said:


> First of all. You are not "paying extra to keep them alive". It actually costs more to kill them. Read below.
> 
> 
> Second, it would be a lot easier to "eliminate the worst, most violent people in our society" by educating them. It is more cost-effective and subjectively morally just to many people.



But maybe some people reach a point were they just can't get educated? I mean, at the end, educating is convincing 

I mean, if sometimes we give up on animals why cant we give up on humans? I believe death penalty shouldnt be a thing cause u can always reeducate but if you cant do that because any reason...

- - - Post Merge - - -



Cory said:


> They won't get educated. That's extremely ineffective. Most of the time they're in phases in and out of prison because they get pressured by other prisoners to do bad things unless they are in solitary, but you can't put all prisoners in solitary.



Why not? Why can't we give them a chance?


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## seliph (Jul 29, 2016)

Can someone explain how murderers can be "educated" to never offend again 'cause I really don't get how that could be a solution.


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## Fleshy (Jul 29, 2016)

Miii said:


> They are subjective, but again, why let someone that's done something terrible like stabbing a bunch of people (ugh this is getting repetitive) keep living only to have to pay for them to be alive, and to risk them being able to do what they did again? Why not take that threat away permanently, and eliminate the worst, most violent people in our society?



Life imprisonment in a high security facility eliminates the risk of re-offending. 

Upon serching costs, I found that it costs on average $34,000 per prisoner per year, and it costs on average $1,260,000 for each successful death penalty case. It also costs $90,000 more per year for a prisoner on death row than the rest of the prision population. This was just quickly found information, so I'm not declaring it valid, I plan on looking into it further later. Anyway, it looks like it's pretty expensive either way. If we should go for the cheapest option, just not punishing criminals at all would be that.

Why should we advocate murder when there are other reasonable options?


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## Tensu (Jul 29, 2016)

Gregriii said:


> But maybe some people reach a point were they just can't get educated? I mean, at the end, educating is convincing
> 
> I mean, if sometimes we give up on animals why cant we give up on humans? I believe death penalty shouldnt be a thing cause u can always reeducate but if you cant do that because any reason...



In that case, if all appropriate efforts really have been made, just keep them in jail for life. They can't harm anyone there.


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## Miii (Jul 29, 2016)

Azure said:


> First of all. You are not "paying extra to keep them alive". It actually costs more to kill them. Read below.
> 
> 
> Second, it would be a lot easier to "eliminate the worst, most violent people in our society" by educating them. It is more cost-effective and subjectively morally just to many people.



But they already know that what they did was wrong. We all know that other human beings feel pain just like we do and we know that if we do certain things to them, they'll no longer be living. What is there to educate them on???


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## Cory (Jul 29, 2016)

Gregriii said:


> Why not? Why can't we give them a chance?



So they could kill more?


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## Gregriii (Jul 29, 2016)

Cory said:


> So they could kill more?



Or they could learn that what they did is extremely wrong?? And that they wont do it again??? And live a normal life???


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## Miii (Jul 29, 2016)

nvll said:


> Can someone explain how murderers can be "educated" to never offend again 'cause I really don't get how that could be a solution.



_Thank you_.


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## Tensu (Jul 29, 2016)

Miii said:


> But they already know that what they did was wrong. We all know that other human beings feel pain just like we do and we know that if we do certain things to them, they'll no longer be living. What is there to educate them on???



Almost all murderers became murderers because of little education. And to assume they cannot be educated is a very ignorant and cruel assumption. If they truly cannot be educated as you say, let them live in jail they're whole life and ponder the terrible things they've done. It's the humane thing to do.

I'm leaving at this point. This has been extremely repetitive, pointless, and a waste of time.

- - - Post Merge - - -

If they do not learn from rehabilitation, stick them in lifetime jail? They cannot harm anyone either way.


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## Miii (Jul 29, 2016)

Azure said:


> Almost all murderers became murderers because of little education. And to assume they cannot be educated is a very ignorant and cruel assumption. If they truly cannot be educated as you say, let them live in jail they're whole life and ponder the terrible things they've done. It's the humane thing to do.
> 
> I'm leaving at this point. This has been extremely repetitive, pointless, and a waste of time.



I don't think it's a waste of time. I think that anyone who commits a crime like that knows before hand that it's wrong. They may have had little education, but that only plays into why they got caught.


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## Fleshy (Jul 29, 2016)

nvll said:


> Can someone explain how murderers can be "educated" to never offend again 'cause I really don't get how that could be a solution.



Exactly, nor do I. In the case of petty/minor offenses (drugs, shoplifting, etc) then yes, education and rehabilitation should be seriously pushed for. But Education isn't essential for life, education is a privilege. Extremely violent/dangerous criminals should be punished, not given privileges, even if they were, it's pointless, they likely won't show legitimate remorse. I find this push for education for said criminals ridiculous.


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## seliph (Jul 29, 2016)

Gregriii said:


> Or they could learn that what they did is extremely wrong?? And that they wont do it again??? And live a normal life???



These aren't little children who threw their crayons at their friend these are (usually grown) people who know they are taking peoples' lives.

The only instances where education might be the problem is with people who commit crimes over racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. and even then, most people like that are too far gone and absolutely refuse to change their mind about these things.


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## N e s s (Jul 29, 2016)

My problem with the death penalty is that there are people who legitamately regreat their crimes and want to redeem themselves when their just doomed to be shot to death by men standing in a line.

I think people should just go into prisons and asylums.


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## Miii (Jul 29, 2016)

N e s s said:


> My problem with the death penalty is that there are people who legitamately regreat their crimes and want to redeem themselves when their just doomed to be shot to death by men standing in a line.
> 
> I think people should just go into prisons and asylums.



Repeating a crime like drug possession or theft is one thing, but repeating heinous crimes like rape and murder (again, not out of self defense) is another entirely. If someone is a repeat drug offender and wants to change their ways, great, let them do so. If they're a repeat murder or rapist, I highly doubt that they want to change their ways, and even if they do, too little, too late; shouldn't have killed or raped all those people.


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## boujee (Jul 29, 2016)

Life and death row is a good series that questions the death penalty 

Currently looking at a episode of a 18 year old who was sent to prison and is currently on trial with 12 juries to decided whether he should live or die from killing his girlfriend's parent with a sledgehammer


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## Jawile (Jul 29, 2016)

Licorice said:


> I see no issue with the death penalty. If someone is a murderer or a rapist then they deserve death. They're scum.



I agree with this wholeheartedly. I believe in "an eye for an eye" so if you take someone else's life, your's deserves to be taken too. (Obvious exception to that is killing in self-defense.)


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## Lyraa (Jul 29, 2016)

Personally, it would depend on what the criminal has done, for example, if they abused an animal (I feel strongly for pets ok), a rapist, etc, the list goes on. But I wouldn't really mind if it was legalised in some circumstances.


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## Red Cat (Jul 29, 2016)

I don't know how this thread got to 18 pages and I don't really want to find out...

I'm absolutely against the death penalty because wrongful convictions happen and I don't see what putting someone to death accomplishes beyond putting someone in prison for life. Even if someone murders people, that doesn't mean the rest of society should stoop to that person's level. Justice should be about keeping people safe, not getting revenge.


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## strawberrigod (Jul 29, 2016)

I have very mixed feelings about it because I haven't done extensive research on it, but honestly I'm not sure if it's actually effective as a punishment. I think it's too hit or miss for such a final, harsh act upon a person while I do believe there are truly disgusting human beings in the world that deserve it.


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## Aquari (Jul 29, 2016)

a part of me says yes but a bigger part of me says no, i'll have to think about it more


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## Mura (Jul 29, 2016)

I have always felt that if a person murders an innocent person, they should get life in prison, or death penalty. 
However, if a person kills multiple people, I believe the death penalty should be given. Although nothing can bring back the people who were murdered, I don't think the criminal should get to live the rest of his life in prison.  

It really all depends on the case. 

Child molesters, and people who murder a child need to be executed.


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## TheGreatBrain (Jul 29, 2016)

I once read an article about these woman on death row. I wish I hadn't, because the things they did was so horrible, it gave me nightmares. I still try not to think about it. These woman did not deserve to live. ( In my opinion). Their crimes were pure evil.


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## amanda1983 (Jul 29, 2016)

I am against the death penalty. I'm lucky to live in a country that abolished it decades ago and it is unlikely to be bought back anytime soon, if ever. The Port Arthur Massacre in 1996 is probably the only event that could have caused this to change, and instead it further entrenched the idea of the death penalty being abhorrent. The murderer in that case had severe intellectual issues and there would have been nothing positive gained from executing him. Instead, our gun laws were tightened to become some of the strictest in the world. The wiki is accurate from my skim reading, and is a good source (in this instance) for anyone wanting to learn more about the tragedy itself as well as the repercussions. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_massacre_(Australia)

I live in Victoria which held the last execution in Australia, a hanging in 1967. I've been to the Old Melbourne Gaol several times on school excursions and it was always a thought-provoking experience. More information about my country's death penalty history is in the link.
http://www.lawcouncil.asn.au/lawcouncil/divisions/legal-practice-division/death-penalty

Finally, all the reasons why I'm against the death penalty are outlined brilliantly in this article by Amnesty International : http://www.amnesty.org.au/adp/comments/2003/


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## riummi (Jul 29, 2016)

We need a person like Dexter


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## kayleee (Jul 29, 2016)

Serial killers deserve death, child/animal abusers deserve death. Rapists deserve death or the loss of one or more body parts or reproductive organs


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## UnderWish (Jul 30, 2016)

The death penalty is a highly discussed topic, and as much as I'd like to say I'm against it, I am not. 
In the eyes of Justice, you get what you give. Those who have committed horrible crimes should die for their actions. Murderers, kidnappers and the mentally unstable jackasses who think things like these are okay for them to do, those are the people who deserve the death penalty. I could argue that no one 'deserves' to die, but that would be incorrect.
Some do deserve to die, though no one deserves a prolonged and painful death like some murderers/kidnappers bring upon their victims. What the government is doing, murdering the people who have done the same to others, is justice, an eye for an eye.
But, I believe this should ONLY come into play if there is indisputable evidence against the person's innocence.


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## Red Cat (Jul 30, 2016)

kayleee said:


> Rapists deserve death or the loss of one or more body parts or reproductive organs



You should move to the Middle East where they do barbaric stuff like that.


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## MochiACNL (Jul 30, 2016)

I find it cruel to just give them the death penalty. I think it should be up to the prisoner if they want to die or live in prison for the rest of their life.ヽ（?ー｀）┌


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## kayleee (Jul 30, 2016)

Red Cat said:


> You should move to the Middle East where they do barbaric stuff like that.



Okay thanks for your unsolicited suggestion


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## visibleghost (Jul 30, 2016)

lol this thread is still open ?? im so proud of u all 

anyways mostly what i can see ppl think are reasons for death penalty is that those ppl donmt deserve to live, and i'm kinda tired so i don't rly feel like doing the whole But They R Human thing agsin so i'll just let u all know that i disagree or somethign


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## Locket (Jul 30, 2016)

Onto topic,

I think that the death penalty is OK, only for the worst criminals. Like, someone who murdered 75 people, not someone who murdered 1. It should only be the harshest punishment, to the harshest people. Otherwise, it should just be solved by a psychologist and prison.


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## radical6 (Jul 30, 2016)

IN MY OPINION WE SHOULD JUST DO THAT NEEDLE EXECUTION FOR THOSE WHO KILLED MANY PEOPLE (MASS MURDERERS/SERIAL KILLERS) BECAUSE3
1) THEY ARE SCUM, PROBABLY
2) THEY PROBABLY HAVE NO REMORSE
3) THEY WILL NEVER INTEGRATE BACK INTO SOCIETY EVER AGAIN
4) THEY WILL BE SOCIALLY ISOLATED FOREVER AND WILL PROBABLY TRY TO KILL THEMSELVES ANYWAY

THATS MY OPINION, OK, THANK YOU


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## LinkToTheWorld (Jul 30, 2016)

I agree with it in the most serious of crimes where guilt is beyond questions. Most of the time, those sort of people show no remorse. Committing crimes against children warrants a death sentence, just like they've sentenced that child to. 
I find so many people seem to have more compassion and understanding with the people committing the crime rather than the victim.

Paying taxes to keep the most evil people in prison where they can take education courses, have a roof over their heads when so many decent people are homeless....they won't care about what they've done. And even if by some miracle they one day gain a conscience. It doesn't make anything better. Not once they've destroyed somebody else. 

So yes, in case of child abuse/murder(not accidental or self defence either) I believe the death penalty is a great solution.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Red Cat said:


> You should move to the Middle East where they do barbaric stuff like that.





Not quite as barbaric as what the victim will have suffered at the hands of their rapist though, is it.


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## Cudon (Jul 30, 2016)

I'm honestly grossed out by how many of you have 0 compassion towards criminals and consider them in a 100% black and white way. No matter how you twist your words or beliefs, criminals of all severities have human attributes and are as complex as us. Because of this there are rarely criminals who do their crime for no literal reason or just for fun, there's usually an underlying problem or motive, and deciding whether this motive is deserving a death penalty isn't always easy.

By assuming that criminals have no humanity and no background motives, that have to be taken into account, you are thinking in a very lazy, immature way and are also being 'ableist' by ignoring the possibility of a mental illness and the possibility of this mental illness being treatable. Instead you choose to look at criminals as an entirely different form of human beings and justify lack of empathy and rights towards them by it.


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## LinkToTheWorld (Jul 30, 2016)

Dinomates said:


> I'm honestly grossed out by how many of you have 0 compassion towards criminals and consider them in a 100% black and white way. No matter how you twist your words or beliefs, criminals of all severities have human attributes and are as complex as us. Because of this there are rarely criminals who do their crime for no literal reason or just for fun, there's usually an underlying problem or motive, and deciding whether this motive is deserving a death penalty isn't always easy.
> 
> By assuming that criminals have no humanity and no background motives, that have to be taken into account, you are thinking in a very lazy, immature way and are also being 'ableist' by ignoring the possibility of a mental illness and the possibility of this mental illness being treatable. Instead you choose to look at criminals as an entirely different form of human beings and justify lack of empathy and rights towards them by it.




Calling people immature just because they don't agree with you doesn't really do your argument any favours. A mature person would be able to discuss it and see it from all sides, without trying to insult people. 

I spent my life working with disabled people and people with special needs. I have a mental illness myself and find it very insulting when these evil people are placed in that catagory. Mental illness doesn't make you murder disabled people. There's no excusing it. 
No, I have no compassion for somebody who killed a group of people, one of those could have been my sister. Or one of the kids I've spent years working with, seeing them turn into a decent member of society. 

I have compassion for the people he murdered and the families left behind.


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## Fleshy (Jul 30, 2016)

As I've said, I am completely against the death penalty. However, the serious attempt to sympathise with and humanise serious offenders is a little scary, yes violent and dangerous criminals are complex humans but that doesn't mean they deserve sympathy and care (in my opinion). I'm never, ever, going to show any type of compassion at all to a rapist or someone who has abused a child. I don't care who they are or what their motives were, they won't get an ounce of sympathy or compassion from me. I believe they deserve to die. (that however does not mean that I believe their murder should be legal though, because I don't). 

By constantly finding any means to defend such offenders it comes across as trivialising victims suffering and siding with said criminals. During this discussion I've seen quite a few people saying that such criminals are "still people", "deserve another chance", "don't deserve their human rights taken away" and suchlike, I don't understand that thought process, why show compassion to rapists, serial murders and child abusers?


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## Reindeer (Jul 30, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> Exactly, nor do I. In the case of petty/minor offenses (drugs, shoplifting, etc) then yes, education and rehabilitation should be seriously pushed for. But Education isn't essential for life, education is a privilege. Extremely violent/dangerous criminals should be punished, not given privileges, even if they were, it's pointless, they likely won't show legitimate remorse. I find this push for education for said criminals ridiculous.


In the Netherlands, education about crime starts young. Police officers go into classrooms, we get to see and hold various items like drugs, guns, bullets, knives, etc. The officers explain, in full detail, what everything does. It's a basic deterrence course, but it also demystifies a lot of items involved in crime.

When a person in their teens or adulthood actually commits murder or rape, they are forcefully entered into a rehabilitation center. At an older age, if you already committed a crime, that basic deterrence course is not going to help. So what they get there is not education, but rather a type of therapy where they seek out whether or not the person's thinking can be corrected.

In the great majority of cases, this is successful, and repeat offenders almost do not exist over here. As I stated in my first post, the criminals where this rehabilitation fails are kept out of society, they are seen as too much of a danger.
The amount of rapes and murders here drop every year. We have to close several prisons every few years because of the dropping crime rate. Last year we had a record low of just 120 total murders, in a population of over 17 million people. So even if you don't have faith in it working, the system in place here has proven to reduce crime through education and rehabilitation.



LinkToTheWorld said:


> Calling people immature just because they don't agree with you doesn't really do your argument any favours. A mature person would be able to discuss it and see it from all sides, without trying to insult people.


She called people's way of thinking immature, not the people themselves.



LinkToTheWorld said:


> I spent my life working with disabled people and people with special needs. I have a mental illness myself and find it very insulting when these evil people are placed in that catagory. Mental illness doesn't make you murder disabled people. There's no excusing it.


Your personal bias has no place in such a decision. If criminals are found to have a mental illness of some sort, that's a diagnosis made by professionals, and something you'll have to accept.


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## Nightmares (Jul 30, 2016)

I'm fine with the death penalty. We need to get rid of all the humans on this Earth anyway xD rip Joking, but then...not really?


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## LinkToTheWorld (Jul 30, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> As I've said, I am completely against the death penalty. However, the serious attempt to sympathise with and humanise serious offenders is a little scary, yes violent and dangerous criminals are complex humans but that doesn't mean they deserve sympathy and care (in my opinion). I'm never, ever, going to show any type of compassion at all to a rapist or someone who has abused a child. I don't care who they are or what their motives were, they won't get an ounce of sympathy or compassion from me. I believe they deserve to die. (that however does not mean that I believe their murder should be legal though, because I don't).
> 
> By constantly finding any means to defend such offenders it comes across as trivialising victims suffering and siding with said criminals. During this discussion I've seen quite a few people saying that such criminals are "still people", "deserve another chance", "don't deserve their human rights taken away" and suchlike, I don't understand that thought process, why show compassion to rapists, serial murders and child abusers?





Round of applause. Honestly, best comment I've read and put very eloquently, better than I could have said it.


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## Nightmares (Jul 30, 2016)

MochiACNL said:


> I find it cruel to just give them the death penalty. I think it should be up to the prisoner if they want to die or live in prison for the rest of their life.ヽ（?ー｀）┌


Or maybe they shouldn't have committed the crime in the first place, huh


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## LinkToTheWorld (Jul 30, 2016)

Nightmares said:


> Or maybe they shouldn't have committed the crime in the first place, huh





Reindeer said:


> In the Netherlands, education about crime starts young. Police officers go into classrooms, we get to see and hold various items like drugs, guns, bullets, knives, etc. The officers explain, in full detail, what everything does. It's a basic deterrence course, but it also demystifies a lot of items involved in crime.
> 
> When a person in their teens or adulthood actually commits murder or rape, they are forcefully entered into a rehabilitation center. At an older age, if you already committed a crime, that basic deterrence course is not going to help. So what they get there is not education, but rather a type of therapy where they seek out whether or not the person's thinking can be corrected.
> 
> ...



Have no idea what the point of that comment was, honestly. 
I was saying mental illness is used as an excuse in the context of these discussions and it is very insulting.


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## Nightmares (Jul 30, 2016)

LinkToTheWorld said:


> Have no idea what the point of that comment was, honestly.
> I was saying mental illness is used as an excuse in the context of these discussions and it is very insulting.



Huh I wasn't replying to you


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## Reindeer (Jul 30, 2016)

LinkToTheWorld said:


> Have no idea what the point of that comment was, honestly.
> I was saying mental illness is used as an excuse in the context of these discussions and it is very insulting.


People are mentioning the *possibility* of a mental illness in such criminals to make people rethink their rigid stance on the death penalty, not using it as an excuse for the criminals' actions. Nobody has said "people only rape kill because they're mentally ill", or even implied it, so don't act like they did.


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## LinkToTheWorld (Jul 30, 2016)

Nightmares said:


> Or maybe they shouldn't have committed the crime in the first place, huh





Nightmares said:


> Huh I wasn't replying to you




I was replying to you either?


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## Nightmares (Jul 30, 2016)

LinkToTheWorld said:


> I was replying to you either?



I'm sorry, but what the heck you talking about? o:


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## LinkToTheWorld (Jul 30, 2016)

Reindeer said:


> People are mentioning the *possibility* of a mental illness in such criminals to make people rethink their rigid stance on the death penalty, not using it as an excuse for the criminals' actions. Nobody has said "people only rape kill because they're mentally ill", or even implied it, so don't act like they did.



It has been said we should feel compassion because of the possibility of somebody having a mental illness....as of that would excuse their behaviour or change anything. 

I would rather have compassion for the victims, personally.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Nightmares said:


> I'm sorry, but what the heck you talking about? o:




I was replying to another poster
have no idea why your quote also appeared at the top


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## visibleghost (Jul 30, 2016)

LinkToTheWorld said:


> It has been said we should feel compassion because of the possibility of somebody having a mental illness....as of that would excuse their behaviour or change anything.
> 
> I would rather have compassion for the victims, personally.
> 
> ...



u dont have to feel compassion just dont kill them lmao


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## LinkToTheWorld (Jul 30, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> u dont have to feel compassion just dont kill them lmao




Oh  

That made me laugh....


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## Bunnilla (Jul 30, 2016)

yeah I think pretty much anyone who killed someone and not in self defense, like a robbery or a kidnapper, should die. They don't know how much pain they inflict on the family.

If they don't ever do it again and COMPLETELY change, if they let them be supervised to the point where they make a change, they should be given a chance.

Sadly, this is not most cases.


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## oath2order (Jul 30, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> Exactly, nor do I. In the case of petty/minor offenses (drugs, shoplifting, etc) then yes, education and rehabilitation should be seriously pushed for. But Education isn't essential for life, education is a privilege. Extremely violent/dangerous criminals should be punished, not given privileges, even if they were, it's pointless, they likely won't show legitimate remorse. I find this push for education for said criminals ridiculous.



Education should be a right


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## visibleghost (Jul 30, 2016)

oath2order said:


> Education should be a right



basic education _ is_ a human right according to the UN.


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## Fleshy (Jul 30, 2016)

oath2order said:


> Education should be a right



It is, basic education is a fundamental human right. A basic school education is completely separate from what I was discussing. The type of education that many prisoners receive in prisons for free is the type that the majority of people don't receive, that type of education is given with the end goal of rehabilitation, I don't think money should be spent on that form of education for extremely dangerous, violent and non-remorseful prisoners that will not ever be back in the general population when it could be given to under-privileged children and young people, or homeless people.


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## LinkToTheWorld (Jul 30, 2016)

ShayminSkies said:


> yeah I think pretty much anyone who killed someone and not in self defense, like a robbery or a kidnapper, should die. They don't know how much pain they inflict on the family.
> 
> If they don't ever do it again and COMPLETELY change, if they let them be supervised to the point where they make a change, they should be given a chance.
> 
> Sadly, this is not most cases.





FleshyBro said:


> It is, basic education is a fundamental human right. A basic school education is completely separate from what I was discussing. The type of education that many prisoners receive in prisons for free is the type that the majority of people don't receive, that type of education is given with the end goal of rehabilitation, I don't think money should be spent on that form of education for extremely dangerous, violent and non-remorseful prisoners that will not ever be back in the general population when it could be given to under-privileged children and young people, or homeless people.




Exactly right. Basic education is one thing, reading/writing/etc.
But to be given a higher education than people who have lived their lives within the law can't even afford? Just isn't fair at all.

- - - Post Merge - - -

Sorry, have no idea why I end up double quoting


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## visibleghost (Jul 30, 2016)

LinkToTheWorld said:


> Exactly right. Basic education is one thing, reading/writing/etc.
> But to be given a higher education than people who have lived their lives within the law can't even afford? Just isn't fair at all.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> ...


in sweden most universities are completely free, so going to prison won't pay your college tuition here because it's already paid. idk but uh

and i can sort of agree that it seems weird that prisoners who are never going to get out of prison get higher education but idk lmao


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## oath2order (Jul 30, 2016)

kayleee said:


> Okay thanks for your unsolicited suggestion



We can say the same thing for you.

What the hell though? Nobody deserves forcibly mutilation for a crime. Death penalty, fine. But chopping a limb off? Piss off that's insane. Goes way beyond the realm of cruel and unusual punishment

- - - Post Merge - - -



LinkToTheWorld said:


> It has been said we should feel compassion because of the possibility of somebody having a mental illness....as of that would excuse their behaviour or change anything.
> 
> I would rather have compassion for the victims, personally.
> 
> ...



Mental illness, depending on the severity and if it's untreated or not, is an excuse. If someone suffers from severe anger issues, auditory and/or visual hallucinations, and it's untreated, you can say that they were not in control of their actions, their mental disorder that they cannot control was. You have more compassion for the victim, yes, but I don't think hating the severely mentally handicapped criminals is the best way to go.


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## GalacticGhost (Jul 30, 2016)

tbh i'm against it. yes, i know some people out there can (and have done) absolutely horrendous things, but does it really make the government themselves any better if they choose to end the life of someone because of what they've done? i don't really think so. sure, they may be doing it to make sure that nobody else gets hurt by someone, but... that doesn't change the fact that they're killing them through capital punishment.

also, it's possible for somebody to be punished through capital punishment, only for people to realise afterwards that that person never did anything at all. and you can't really release them to live their life as normal if they're dead.


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## radical6 (Jul 30, 2016)

GUYS NO ONE THINKS DRUG USERS OR THIEVES SHOULD DIE ITS THE PEOPLE WHO KILL MASS GROUPS OF PEOPLE!!!!!!! DUH!!!!!! why do people think just cos were pro death that we want EVERYONE in prison to die. mass killers are NEVER going to go back to society. EVER. there is literally no way to rehabilitate them. they will be locked up forever. they usually kill themselves or go insane from being locked up 23 hours a day -_-


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## Red Cat (Jul 30, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> As I've said, I am completely against the death penalty. However, the serious attempt to sympathise with and humanise serious offenders is a little scary, yes violent and dangerous criminals are complex humans but that doesn't mean they deserve sympathy and care (in my opinion). I'm never, ever, going to show any type of compassion at all to a rapist or someone who has abused a child. I don't care who they are or what their motives were, they won't get an ounce of sympathy or compassion from me. I believe they deserve to die. (that however does not mean that I believe their murder should be legal though, because I don't).
> 
> By constantly finding any means to defend such offenders it comes across as trivialising victims suffering and siding with said criminals. During this discussion I've seen quite a few people saying that such criminals are "still people", "deserve another chance", "don't deserve their human rights taken away" and suchlike, I don't understand that thought process, why show compassion to rapists, serial murders and child abusers?



If someone commits a horrific crime like rape or murder, that person gets thrown in prison for most if not all of his/her life. Prisoners do lose most of their rights. They can't go anywhere outside the prison and they can't communicate with loved ones except in occasional, monitored situations. They don't get to control much of anything in their lives. They absolutely deserve that as punishment for their crimes. They do not become animals though. We don't starve, torture, or kill our prisoners in a civilized society. We show prisoners a basic level of human respect and dignity because we're better than them. Just because they choose to become monsters when they commit crimes like rape and murder doesn't mean we should become monsters in the way we treat them. Otherwise we are basically saying that the same blood-thirst which caused them to commit crimes exists in all of us, only that we choose to satisfy that blood-thirst in a legally sanctioned way.


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## LinkToTheWorld (Jul 30, 2016)

kallie said:


> GUYS NO ONE THINKS DRUG USERS OR THIEVES SHOULD DIE ITS THE PEOPLE WHO KILL MASS GROUPS OF PEOPLE!!!!!!! DUH!!!!!! why do people think just cos were pro death that we want EVERYONE in prison to die. mass killers are NEVER going to go back to society. EVER. there is literally no way to rehabilitate them. they will be locked up forever. they usually kill themselves or go insane from being locked up 23 hours a day -_-




Actually, that's another good point. Over here people don't get massive life sentences, but in places throughout America I know they sometimes do. How many of them kill themselves while serving these huge sentences? Just wondering now if that could actually be considered by some (not me) more inhumane than the death penalty.

Certainly on this country it's no issue for them. You rape and abuse someone, even a child, you don't get anything near to life.
Perhaps if the justice system in this country were different, I would feel different about it. As it is, it doesn't feel like any justice is being done


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## Red Cat (Jul 30, 2016)

kallie said:


> GUYS NO ONE THINKS DRUG USERS OR THIEVES SHOULD DIE ITS THE PEOPLE WHO KILL MASS GROUPS OF PEOPLE!!!!!!! DUH!!!!!! why do people think just cos were pro death that we want EVERYONE in prison to die. mass killers are NEVER going to go back to society. EVER. there is literally no way to rehabilitate them. they will be locked up forever. they usually kill themselves or go insane from being locked up 23 hours a day -_-



Do you have actual data to back that up? Or is this like a Trump tweet where you just use a bunch of caps and made-up ****?

According to NPR, suicides make up only 6% of prison inmate deaths in the U.S.

http://www.npr.org/2015/07/27/426742309/the-shock-of-confinement-the-grim-reality-of-suicide-in-jail


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## Cariicarky (Jul 30, 2016)

my problem with it is that there have been cases where someone received the death penalty but it was discovered later that they didn't actually commit the crime. at least if someone was falsely accused of a crime and was arrested they can be set free, but you can't bring someone back to life


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## ams (Jul 30, 2016)

I'm absolutely for it. It's easy for average people to feel that it's enough to lock up rapists and murderers so that they can't hurt people anymore, but what's often forgotten is that the other prisoners and the corrections workers are still being abused by the worst criminals. I've known people who work in corrections and they're sexually harassed, have bodily fluids thrown at them, and can also be physically harmed. Other prisoners are often raped and murdered. For those who feel that the death penalty is wrong because it is treating prisoners as less than human, how can you not see that subjecting the less violent criminals and corrections employees to the most dangerous people in our society is treating them as less than human? Out of sight out of mind I guess.


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## oath2order (Jul 30, 2016)

Cariicarky said:


> my problem with it is that there have been cases where someone received the death penalty but it was discovered later that they didn't actually commit the crime. at least if someone was falsely accused of a crime and was arrested they can be set free, but you can't bring someone back to life



TROY.

ANTHONY.

DAVIS.

That case set me against the death penalty.


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## Celestefey (Jul 30, 2016)

kallie said:


> GUYS NO ONE THINKS DRUG USERS OR THIEVES SHOULD DIE ITS THE PEOPLE WHO KILL MASS GROUPS OF PEOPLE!!!!!!! DUH!!!!!! why do people think just cos were pro death that we want EVERYONE in prison to die. mass killers are NEVER going to go back to society. EVER. there is literally no way to rehabilitate them. they will be locked up forever. they usually kill themselves or go insane from being locked up 23 hours a day -_-



That is understandable, but literally... Like... How are we supposed to judge when someone is supposed to die or not? Where do we draw the line? How do we decide what crimes deserve the punishment of the death penalty? Do we believe that anyone who murders should receive the death penalty, or should we leave that to mass murderers and etc? It's a really fine line, and I feel like, in my opinion, it's too hard to know who deserves to die or not. Yeah, some people may be beyond rehabilitation, but do they still deserve to die because of their actions? Are we not just as bad for killing these people in the name of justice? I don't know how to feel on the issue at all, I think I'm against it, but I feel there's just too many questions and moral dilemmas that'd arise from this so I think it's too risky to really go for it. And like Cariicarky stated - what about in cases where someone has received the death penalty even though they were innocent? I feel like that's what puts me against it. You can't just bring somebody back to life.


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## Red Cat (Jul 30, 2016)

ams said:


> I'm absolutely for it. It's easy for average people to feel that it's enough to lock up rapists and murderers so that they can't hurt people anymore, but what's often forgotten is that the other prisoners and the corrections workers are still being abused by the worst criminals. I've known people who work in corrections and they're sexually harassed, have bodily fluids thrown at them, and can also be physically harmed. Other prisoners are often raped and murdered. For those who feel that the death penalty is wrong because it is treating prisoners as less than human, how can you not see that subjecting the less violent criminals and corrections employees to the most dangerous people in our society is treating them as less than human? Out of sight out of mind I guess.



If corrections workers are having bodily fluids thrown at them and being physically harmed, then there is something wrong with the prison that would leave corrections officers vulnerable like that. It would be better to fix the prisons so that corrections officers are safe rather than kill the inmates because the only way killing inmates would keep corrections officers safe would be to kill every inmate which would defeat the purpose of having a prison in the first place. Also, the point of solitary confinement is to keep the "most" dangerous inmates away from the "less" dangerous ones. So there are ways to solve those problems which are more effective than the death penalty.


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## kayleee (Jul 30, 2016)

Tbh rapists and murderers don't deserve basic human rights. They lost theirs when they decided to take the basic human rights from someone else

Truthfully, what they deserve is what they inflicted on another. A clean painless death is more than they deserve


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## Mega_Cabbage (Jul 30, 2016)

Just curious, but what do you guys think of prisoners of war getting the death penalty? They probably killed tons of people, but they were fighting for a good cause in their perspective (obviously each side of the fight thinks what they are doing is going to be correct).


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## himeki (Jul 30, 2016)

i dont like it, i think that lifetime jail and the guilt that comes with your crime is punishment enough.


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## radical6 (Jul 30, 2016)

Red Cat said:


> Do you have actual data to back that up? Or is this like a Trump tweet where you just use a bunch of caps and made-up ****?
> 
> According to NPR, suicides make up only 6% of prison inmate deaths in the U.S.
> 
> http://www.npr.org/2015/07/27/426742309/the-shock-of-confinement-the-grim-reality-of-suicide-in-jail





IDK A LOT OF THE RAPISTS AND FAMOUS SERIAL KILLERS I KNOW ENDED UP COMMITTING SUICIDE IN JAIL BECAUSE THEY COULDNT DEAL WITH THE GUILT AND TIME. LIKE A LOT. THERES PROBABLY A LIST ON WIKIPEDIA. BUT DOES THAT ACCOUNT FOR PEOPLE WITH LIFE SENTENCES ONLY?

- - - Post Merge - - -



Red Cat said:


> Do you have actual data to back that up? Or is this like a Trump tweet where you just use a bunch of caps and made-up ****?
> 
> According to NPR, suicides make up only 6% of prison inmate deaths in the U.S.
> 
> http://www.npr.org/2015/07/27/426742309/the-shock-of-confinement-the-grim-reality-of-suicide-in-jail





Celestefey said:


> That is understandable, but literally... Like... How are we supposed to judge when someone is supposed to die or not? Where do we draw the line? How do we decide what crimes deserve the punishment of the death penalty? Do we believe that anyone who murders should receive the death penalty, or should we leave that to mass murderers and etc? It's a really fine line, and I feel like, in my opinion, it's too hard to know who deserves to die or not. Yeah, some people may be beyond rehabilitation, but do they still deserve to die because of their actions? Are we not just as bad for killing these people in the name of justice? I don't know how to feel on the issue at all, I think I'm against it, but I feel there's just too many questions and moral dilemmas that'd arise from this so I think it's too risky to really go for it. And like Cariicarky stated - what about in cases where someone has received the death penalty even though they were innocent? I feel like that's what puts me against it. You can't just bring somebody back to life.



i only think it should be used on people who we know are 100% guilty, like we have video proof of them killing mass groups of people. i know we used to wrongfully lynch black people for "raping" (they didnt) white women which is wrong, but if we have clear proof someone killed mass groups of people then..why not? is death not better than being locked up for the rest of your life in a lonely room?


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## moonbunny (Jul 30, 2016)

kallie said:


> i only think it should be used on people who we know are 100% guilty, like we have video proof of them killing mass groups of people. i know we used to wrongfully lynch black people for "raping" (they didnt) white women which is wrong, but if we have clear proof someone killed mass groups of people then..why not? is death not better than being locked up for the rest of your life in a lonely room?



Even videos can be tampered with.

Anyway, I don't have the patience to read through all 23 pages of this thread, but I will say that I am against the death penalty. I think it's a barbaric practice that has no place in modern society. I don't believe in murder, and that includes murder sanctioned by the government.


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## ZetaFunction (Jul 30, 2016)

No, I don't really agree with the death penalty in most scenarios.  Instead, maybe have a person have a life sentence or something?  Killing them won't teach them to become better people, because they'll be dead.  The only good thing about the death sentence is that it possibly scares other people into behaving so they don't end up having to deal with the law, but still.  Maybe chop an arm off or a hand or something so they're disabled (along with going to jail) instead of killing them if it's a really serious thing they've done and they deserve it?  But not kill.  I can see in certain circumstances where the death penalty would be plausible, but not for all crimes.


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## Red Cat (Jul 31, 2016)

Mega_Cabbage said:


> Just curious, but what do you guys think of prisoners of war getting the death penalty? They probably killed tons of people, but they were fighting for a good cause in their perspective (obviously each side of the fight thinks what they are doing is going to be correct).



I'm not an expert in international law, but I think soldiers aren't supposed to be tried for killing people in the act of duty unless they committed war crimes like rape, torture, or killing civilians on purpose. In a legitimate war, if someone is shooting at you or your allies, you have the right to shoot back no matter which side you're on. It isn't any more justified for the winning side than for the losing side. Punishing soldiers of the losing side just breeds more resentment and hostility and leads to more war.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Lucanosa said:


> Maybe chop an arm off or a hand or something so they're disabled (along with going to jail) instead of killing them if it's a really serious thing they've done and they deserve it?



God, what is it with people here wanting to chop off people's limbs? I thought people on TBT are more civilized than that.


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## amanda1983 (Jul 31, 2016)

Dinomates said:


> I'm honestly grossed out by how many of you have 0 compassion towards criminals and consider them in a 100% black and white way. No matter how you twist your words or beliefs, criminals of all severities have human attributes and are as complex as us. Because of this there are rarely criminals who do their crime for no literal reason or just for fun, there's usually an underlying problem or motive, and deciding whether this motive is deserving a death penalty isn't always easy.
> 
> By assuming that criminals have no humanity and no background motives, that have to be taken into account, you are thinking in a very lazy, immature way and are also being 'ableist' by ignoring the possibility of a mental illness and the possibility of this mental illness being treatable. Instead you choose to look at criminals as an entirely different form of human beings and justify lack of empathy and rights towards them by it.



I want to expand on this as I feel it is directly linked to the idea of the death penalty. One of the problems with assuming murderers and other violent criminals are all bad, evil, not human etc etc is... that it's not true. We like to think someone like the one described in the OP is some strange twisted being who isn't human, isn't *like us*. It's scary to find out how utterly normal and mundane these mass-murderers were to people around them. It's confronting to realise that someone "evil" really can look and act and *be* just like any normal non-murdering human being.. until they start murdering.

The most common thing said about serial murderers and rapists by people who knew them is "but he/she was so normal I just can't believe it." Often it's "but he/she was so nice!" with a list of good deeds added. Statements like this come up in so many cases that it is very unusual to hear of a case where no witness makes such a statement. But regardless of who knew what and when, there is always this accusation (unspoken or otherwise) : how could they not have known? Because it is so very clear to everyone now, why wasn't it always clear?

There's a lot going on psychologically that explains why this happens, why people will go to such lengths - unconsciously - to use hindsight to paint that bad guy as utterly evil. But basically it boils down to : they are not like me. I am good, they are bad. I would never do ____ and they did. I had no idea they were capable of such a thing, they tricked me. I would have known otherwise. They are not just bad, they are evil. They are nothing like me. They aren't even human.

This mentality, this idea that we should be able to KNOW how bad a particular person is - even before they do anything to merit such a label - is dangerous. And faulty logic. But worse : it actively contributes to the suffering of the victims, and future victims of other crimes. When the attacker doesn't look evil, or "seem the type" then in general there's more trauma added to the victim/s in order to try and be heard and believed. People who have never knowingly talked to a rapist, a child abuser, or even a murderer tend to assume that those people just aren't around them. So they are more likely to dismiss any claims made against someone they know, just as countless other victims or witnesses have over the years.. 

The man who (allegedly) killed those people in Japan because he wanted to "help" them is a(n alleged) murderer. But he's just a man. Ignoring this reality doesn't make you (speaking generally) as bad as he is. But it sure doesn't help anyone either. He's just a man. Not a monster. Not a a demon*. Not evil. He broke the law, committed an absolutely reprehensible act by most anyone's standards, morals, whatever term you prefer. But he was once a baby, a child, a teen, and did all kinds of things that every human being does. Does that mean it's okay that he murdered those defenseless people? Of ****ing course not. But all the hyperbole does is isolate this man from his humanity, which may be of comfort to some but sure as heck does nothing to help understand the events in this situation. Or help us try and prevent such a thing happening again. 

By painting people like this as evil, not human... you're only fooling yourself (again, speaking generally). Which isn't especially helpful when trying to prevent child abuse, rape, and sexual assault crimes. Statistically speaking : we all know people who have committed those crimes. They just hide it well.

* I'm not religious and my comment is not intended to counter nor reference any particular religious belief. The language I've used is meant to be applied in a secular fashion as is normal in society today, not to refer to anything biblical.


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## riummi (Jul 31, 2016)

I'm just happy that we all made it this far w/o this thread having to be closed lol


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## Licorice (Jul 31, 2016)

We shouldn't have compassion for rapists and murderers, etc. They're not even human to me honestly. As far as the mentally ill, if they are so far gone that they commit crimes like that (ex serial killers) then they also deserve the death penalty. They aren't contributing to society. I'm not gonna have sympathy for a lowlife.


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## visibleghost (Jul 31, 2016)

Licorice said:


> We shouldn't have compassion for rapists and murderers, etc. They're not even human to me honestly. As far as the mentally ill, if they are so far gone that they commit crimes like that (ex serial killers) then they also deserve the death penalty. They aren't contributing to society. I'm not gonna have sympathy for a lowlife.



u dont have to have compassion for them to realize that they are Literally human and thus have human rights. n a jury or those law ppl shouldn't have personal feelings about the person
and killing ppl because they're if no use to society uhhh doesn't sound great but uh u do u..?


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## Fleshy (Jul 31, 2016)

Lucanosa said:


> No, I don't really agree with the death penalty in most scenarios.  Instead, maybe have a person have a life sentence or something?  Killing them won't teach them to become better people, because they'll be dead.  The only good thing about the death sentence is that it possibly scares other people into behaving so they don't end up having to deal with the law, but still.  Maybe chop an arm off or a hand or something so they're disabled (along with going to jail) instead of killing them if it's a really serious thing they've done and they deserve it?  But not kill.  I can see in certain circumstances where the death penalty would be plausible, but not for all crimes.



Chop an arm off to make criminals disabled? are you serious? That's barbaric as hell, and also, disabilities are something people have to struggle with for life and really shouldn't be seen as a punishment and an alternative to being killed. You said killing them won't teach them to be better people, how would chopping a limb off do that? Never mind the medical costs. Wouldn't life imprisonment suffice? 





Licorice said:


> We shouldn't have compassion for rapists and murderers, etc. They're not even human to me honestly. As far as the mentally ill, if they are so far gone that they commit crimes like that (ex serial killers) then they also deserve the death penalty. They aren't contributing to society. I'm not gonna have sympathy for a lowlife.



Isn't it a wonder how _the mentally ill_ are able to get to that point (serial killings, etc)? Here's a slightly better idea, actually improving the system of care for people with severe mental illness, namely intense psychosis. They deserve care and help before things escalate that far. Most of them wouldn't be "so far gone" if people actually cared. If young children aren't given the death penalty or tried as adults, when they are usually aware of what they're doing, then neither should a severely mentally ill person. As their illness was the reason for their crimes (in the case of a person suffering psychosis and losing touch with reality) they are far more likely to recover and show remorse. I too agree that showing compassion to very dangerous criminals generally isn't the best idea though, no matter what, I won't be showing any compassion for a rapist or someone who abused a child/children, I don't care if they are still human, because obviously they are, but personally I'm not going to value them the same as others, not even in the slightest.


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## zoetrope (Jul 31, 2016)

What's up with all of the dehumanization language up in here?  Non human.  Subhuman.  Monsters.  Animals.  Blah blah blah.  Using these words doesn't add anything to the conversation, it just shows that people are so uncomfortable with certain criminals that they try to distance _themselves_ from them.  "I'm not like them!  They're not human!"

Also, cutting limbs off of incarcerated people?!  Sheesh.  This thread truly is the gift that keeps on giving.


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## LinkToTheWorld (Jul 31, 2016)

Don't think there is any other word for child abusers and pedophiles. There are some crimes that are so hideous and depraved that decent people can't even comprehend how another human being could commit such an act. Which is probably why such language comes into use


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## zoetrope (Jul 31, 2016)

LinkToTheWorld said:


> Don't think there is any other word for child abusers and pedophiles. There are some crimes that are so hideous and depraved that decent people can't even comprehend how another human being could commit such an act. Which is probably why such language comes into use



Here's an interesting article about dehumanizing language and criminals:  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3633929/
*warning:  contains uncomfortable/graphic descriptions of crimes.  And psych jargon.  And a lot of statistics.  But I love statistics.*

There's also a really fascinating book about the subject called Less Than Human.  Slurs and dehumanizing language try to have an 'othering' effect--they distance you from the target and make you less likely to feel empathy for them or, as seen in the paper above, makes you more likely to give them harsher punishments.  It also makes people feel better about themselves.  

I just think it's problematic when talking about the death penalty because it can have pretty powerful effects.  While some people might not mind calling a child rapist on death row a monster, realize the same 'othering' effect can be used in racist ways.

Dehumanizing words make people feel better, but they really shouldn't.  Murder, rape, molestation ARE horrible.  Trying to hide from that by using dehumanizing terms may make it easier for people to talk about but also lets emotions get in the way.

tl;dr:  I don't know.  I need to go to sleep.


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## Fleshy (Jul 31, 2016)

LinkToTheWorld said:


> Don't think there is any other word for child abusers and pedophiles. There are some crimes that are so hideous and depraved that decent people can't even comprehend how another human being could commit such an act. Which is probably why such language comes into use





Spoiler: w:child abuse mention



I guess you're referring to calling child abusers and pedophiles "monsters" and such? While I completely understand where you're coming from, and sometimes using such language is a way to express utter disgust and hatred for such vile humans but honestly I think that outlook is slightly scary and really rather dangerous. The way I personally see it is if someone is always calling these criminals "monsters" and using language that dehuminises them (because after all, no matter how vile they are, they are still human) children will hear this language and see these people as their own vision of monsters (scary purple things hiding in their closets) and then they most likely won't realise that these abusers rarely take such form, these abusers could be anyone around them, these abusers are human. If a child were to be abused, they might not realise that it is abuse as the abuser isn't a _monster,_ like they've been led to believe, the abuser is human. I believe it's very important for us to call these people what they are, especially to make children aware that these abusive ****s only come in human form, usually even in the form of a _nice human_, and they sadly aren't monsters.


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## boujee (Jul 31, 2016)

This thread reminded me of the weird killer fangirls and one of their poems regarding the columbine shootings:


Spoiler: •















I think I also seen some poem regarding a rapist and they tried to make is sympathetic with connecting it to warning signs and how many rejections broke their heart or whatever that caused them to do it.

Also someone asked about the death row episode of the 18 year old on trial for killing two people. He got sentenced to death.


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## LinkToTheWorld (Jul 31, 2016)

zoetrope said:


> Here's an interesting article about dehumanizing language and criminals:  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3633929/
> *warning:  contains uncomfortable/graphic descriptions of crimes.  And psych jargon.  And a lot of statistics.  But I love statistics.*
> 
> There's also a really fascinating book about the subject called Less Than Human.  Slurs and dehumanizing language try to have an 'othering' effect--they distance you from the target and make you less likely to feel empathy for them or, as seen in the paper above, makes you more likely to give them harsher punishments.  It also makes people feel better about themselves.
> ...





FleshyBro said:


> Spoiler: w:child abuse mention
> 
> 
> 
> I guess you're referring to calling child abusers and pedophiles "monsters" and such? While I completely understand where you're coming from, and sometimes using such language is a way to express utter disgust and hatred for such vile humans but honestly I think that outlook is slightly scary and really rather dangerous. The way I personally see it is if someone is always calling these criminals "monsters" and using language that dehuminises them (because after all, no matter how vile they are, they are still human) children will hear this language and see these people as their own vision of monsters (scary purple things hiding in their closets) and then they most likely won't realise that these abusers rarely take such form, these abusers could be anyone around them, these abusers are human. If a child were to be abused, they might not realise that it is abuse as the abuser isn't a _monster,_ like they've been led to believe, the abuser is human. I believe it's very important for us to call these people what they are, especially to make children aware that these abusive ****s only come in human form, usually even in the form of a _nice human_, and they sadly aren't monsters.



While I see where you're coming from, as a child I was never aware of my abuser being referred to as a monster, although I'm quite sure that he was called that by many people who were close to me. But as I grew older that is exactly the kind of thing that I referred to him as in my mind. I've now also worked with many abused children and wouldn't use such language to them of course. I think that's a different issue when it comes to adults referring to these things as some sort of subhuman and what language we would use with a child to avoid confusing them or making the situation worse. 

I think it will never cease to shock somebody when they hear about another horrific case of child abuse or molestation. Even though we are all too aware that these people do exist, in every walk of life. 
Using that kind of language I think is just a way to create distance in someone's mind that another human being could do such a thing when of course we well know that they're very much human, sadly.


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## namiieco (Jul 31, 2016)

No. I don't think someone should die from something like that. 
It just shows how messed up the human race is, though. 

I think going to jail is also messed up but what else can anyone do.


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## kayleee (Jul 31, 2016)

The fact that people in this thread are coming in with this "holier than thou" persona and basically defending and sympathizing with rapists and murderers is pretty scary and gross tbh
Like even if you don't agree with the death penalty I can support that but some of the stuff y'all are coming up with is just crazy


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## Liamslash (Jul 31, 2016)

The only benefit the death penalty has is getting rid of the murderers, which may even be a blessing over spending a life in jail. I don't see how it will feel justified or better, if I was the victim I would want the murderer to spend a life in prison instead as I feel like that is a worse punishment.


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## Red Cat (Jul 31, 2016)

kayleee said:


> The fact that people in this thread are coming in with this "holier than thou" persona and basically defending and sympathizing with rapists and murderers is pretty scary and gross tbh
> Like even if you don't agree with the death penalty I can support that but some of the stuff y'all are coming up with is just crazy



I don't think anyone here is sympathizing with rapists and murderers. Some of us are just really disturbed by the fact that people here are talking about cutting limbs off or killing people in a painful way. Prisoners are not mad scientist experiments. The people here who are against the death penalty mostly agree that rapists and murderers should be locked up for life. We just believe it should be done in a humane way.


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## visibleghost (Jul 31, 2016)

kayleee said:


> The fact that people in this thread are coming in with this "holier than thou" persona and basically defending and sympathizing with rapists and murderers is pretty scary and gross tbh
> Like even if you don't agree with the death penalty I can support that but some of the stuff y'all are coming up with is just crazy



pls quote stuff ppl in this thread have said that is sympathizing w/ rapists and murderers because imo people against death penalty have been very reasonable and not sympathized with them lmao...

not wanting them to be killed doesn't mean you wanna take a selfie w them and call them ur hero for murdering ppl


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## nintendofan85 (Jul 31, 2016)

Red Cat said:


> I don't think anyone here is sympathizing with rapists and murderers. Some of us are just really disturbed by the fact that people here are talking about cutting limbs off or killing people in a painful way. Prisoners are not mad scientist experiments. The people here who are against the death penalty mostly agree that rapists and murderers should be locked up for life. We just believe it should be done in a humane way.



Even though I support the death penalty in some circumstances, I agree with the statement as the people that don't support it here were trying to keep the discussion as civil as they could.


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## Buttonsy (Aug 1, 2016)

While I do think that there are some actions that are bad enough that they deserve death, I just don't think that there is a way we can make sure we don't accidentally put innocent people found guilty to death if we allow it.


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## LinkToTheWorld (Aug 1, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> pls quote stuff ppl in this thread have said that is sympathizing w/ rapists and murderers because imo people against death penalty have been very reasonable and not sympathized with them lmao...
> 
> not wanting them to be killed doesn't mean you wanna take a selfie w them and call them ur hero for murdering ppl



I think some people are possibly confusing the other thread with this one, since it was stated by somebody there that we should feel compassion for these criminals, something to that effect. 
Or it might have been further back in this thread, not sure now  they both ended up following a similar path of discussion

It's certainly an interesting topic. It's one of those subjects where options are just so varied

Also, I think most people have kept it civil on both threads. There's always somebody who only comes here looking for an argument, you get that anywhere though


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## moonbunny (Aug 1, 2016)

Buttonsy said:


> I just don't think that there is a way we can make sure we don't accidentally put innocent people found guilty to death if we allow it.



Exactly. Even one (more) innocent person put to death is one person too many.


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