# Religious Views: Seek Advice Here or Help Others!



## KainAronoele (Jun 7, 2015)

Heard there wasn't a Religion thread so thought I'd try to make an official one??
Here you can help people who have questions or seek advice about certain religions/things about the religion.


*Rules*:
- No negative or heated arguments. Debates are welcome, but keep it calm, within forum rules, and be open-minded. If giving advice or seeking you can't get angry over what someone response with.
- No stupid remarks or spam posts. (uneducated posts will be counted as spam) Be serious and courteous.
- No bashing other religions - to straight out say "this religion is stupid" or "if you believe in this you're stupid", and stuff of the sort, is not allowed, so don't bother typing it.
- Only answer and help them out if you really know how to help them, preferably if you are of that religion, used to be, or have studied it.
- _If anyone breaks the above rules, just ignore them, don't add to the problem._
- _If it's life-threatening seek help in private or find an official site made to help you out._
- I know some are sort of repeats, but to further explain I've added it in as another rule (shhhh)
- If anyone thinks I should add some rules, lemme know!​






_My current problem I need help with is as follows_ -
(Religion: _Christianity_)


Spoiler: Has kind of been answered, but can still let me know what you think if you'd like



If you're a parent, is it your "job" to judge your children on what they do and choose in life, even if you're now an adult?
As far as I was aware of, you're not supposed to judge anyone as it is not our place. So how can it be their JOB to do so?


Spoiler: More info



My father thinks it is his job to judge my life and decisions (he actually said this to me, I'm not assuming). So he SEVERELY judges my relationship choice and would constantly lecture me about it and say that he doesn't approve of it, accusing me of not caring about my family if I go to move in with the person I love.
Surpassing the judging he would always guilt trip me into thinking that if I choose to be with my bf that I don't care about my family cuz I "want" to leave them.
I'm an adult and want to grow and live my life and form my own family, get married, have kids; how does that make me not love my family? I don't love my family cuz I want to expand my family....??

Just need some input on the matter. Hoping in both perspectives maybe, so I can further understand his logic? Cuz it honestly makes no sense to me.







​


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## DarkDesertFox (Jun 7, 2015)

How weird. My sister just mentioned to me today what if a religious thread was made on here. I hope her other prediction about it being closed doesn't come true.


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## KainAronoele (Jun 7, 2015)

DarkDesertFox said:


> How weird. My sister just mentioned to me today what if a religious thread was made on here. I hope her other prediction about it being closed doesn't come true.



Oh, a fellow semi-psychic! xD
Hope so too. Hopefully we'll all keep it positive. Just a place to seek help if you're like me and don;t have friends that really have the same religion or know how to have a calm conversation about it without getting all pissy cuz they automatically assume you're wanting to force your religion onto them :/


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## kaylagirl (Jun 7, 2015)

KainAronoele said:


> _My current problem I need help with is as follows_ -
> (Religion: _Christianity_)
> If you're a parent, is it your "job" to judge your children on what they do and choose in life, even if you're now an adult?
> As far as I was aware of, you're not supposed to judge anyone as it is not our place. So how can it be their JOB to do so?
> ...



Coming from a Christian (more specifically, raised Catholic):
​


Spoiler: long ass paragraphs



*If you're a parent, is it your "job" to judge your children on what they do and choose in life, even if you're now an adult?:* This is tough. I don't believe it's their "job" to "judge", but they WILL judge, I'm sure. I always believe in having open and honest opinions. I believe they (they = your parents) have a right to tell you what they THINK about you and your boyfriend, but they have absolutely no right to tell you that you no longer care about them. If this is your first serious relationship, maybe that's what your father is concerned about? It could also be the fact that you/your father has never met him in person. I, as a parent, would PERSONALLY be a bit concerned about a relationship where you've never met, only because I've seen how far some people that "catfish" have gone, and it would break my heart if that was happening to my child (NOT accusing your boyfriend of being a catfish, of course!!).
Growing up Catholic, we (or at least the church I went to) were taught to date someone within your church, or at least within your religion, etc. Follow the "Christian" rules of relationships (I don't  think those need to be talked about here), and make sure your parents approve. No approval from daddy, no marriage.

*As far as I was aware of, you're not supposed to judge anyone as it is not our place. So how can it be their JOB to do so?:* As sad as it is, I believe everyone has at least SOME judgement on others, especially being Christian. There are many many things "you" (you = anyone) can do to be considered a "bad" Christian. I believe older people (such as our parents), are more prone to judgement, as they see the way they were raised as being the "correct" way to live, "courting", old-fashioned relationships, etc.

The way I see it with this situation is, I THINK he's just concerned for you (for the reasons listed above ^)? I don't know your father personally, so I can't say that for certain, of course. To recap: they're going to judge I'm sure, but they can't actually tell you what to do. It's YOUR life, you can make your own decisions. If you feel something is right, do it. If it's not right, you live and learn. That's the way my mom raised me, she's not like most of the Christians I grew up with. If your parents truly love you, they will learn to support, or at least ACCEPT, whatever choices you make. They love you, and I'm sure they only want what's best for you (in his own special way). I've since left the Catholic church, and I now attend a contemporary Baptist church, as I moved down south. They are much more open to the "new" ways of life.

I know it's hard, since he's your dad and all, but try not to let the things he says get to you. If you're happy, CONTINUE TO BE HAPPY. Life is short, make it your own, and make the best of it. One of my favorite quotes about stuff like this actually comes from a Macklemore song, "Man-made rewiring of a predisposition, playing God. America the brave still fears what we don't know. And "God loves all his children," is somehow forgotten, but we paraphrase a book written thirty-five-hundred years ago."



I wish you the best of luck with your relationship (both family and boyfriend), and I'm here if you ever need to talk! I hope nothing I said has upset you!"


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## Trundle (Jun 7, 2015)

In terms of Christianity, parents should try to steer their children down the right path. Regardless of this, you are your own person and your decisions are your own. Your parents should love you whether or not they agree with your decisions. 
If you're asking these questions based on your own experience with your parents, it is likely you're perceiving them wanting what is best for you as them judging you decisions. They obviously care about you or they wouldn't bother "judging" you at all.


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## Bowie (Jun 7, 2015)

I have a feeling this thread won't end well.

I personally believe religion is one of the most awful things to ever originate on this planet. Now, I have absolutely nothing against religious people (provided they aren't bigots) as I am a very spiritual person myself and understand how awful it is when your personal beliefs are attacked like that, but religion itself is something I hate. I hate the way it tears families apart, can contribute to LGBT+ suicides, and can even turn deadly (Islamic State being only one example). The only religion (if it even counts as a religion) I can really respect is Buddhism, because they don't do anything malicious. They're respectful to all walks of life and preach love, something a lot of religious people tend to forget about completely.

I classify as an atheist, but I'm very spiritual and I believe in life after death. I just think that we don't know as much as we think we do, and I personally just want to search for myself. I don't like the idea of reading something that tells me things about life. I want to experience them myself and have any religious entity speak to me, if they are existent. I'm on a constant spiritual journey and religion is just not part of that. I'm free.


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## KainAronoele (Jun 7, 2015)

kaylagirl said:


> Coming from a Christian (more specifically, raised Catholic):
> ​
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for giving your take on it! ^^



Spoiler: In further response to it



First, we're First Baptist, and as far as I know he's been Baptist since he got with my mother.
Most people say that he's just wanting what's best for me, and though I know that's probably part of it, it seems to go much further than that. He's one of those that seems to be "it's the way I see it/think it should be, or it's wrong" kind of person. Especially when it comes to "Being a man" if it's not the way he'd do it, then that guy isn't a real man.
He once told me that my bf isn't a real man or really cares about me cuz when he got stung by a bee, which he is highly allergic to and had to go to Emerg he told me what happened and said he didn't know if he'd be ok, but will let me know asap. I went to my dad for comfort cuz I'm really sensitive and was freaking out and he got mad cuz he said that's not what a man would say to someone he cares about. Then told me a story how when he ripped his tendon he didn't call my mom and make her worry, he went to the bathroom, wrapped it up and went home, then when she got home he told her about it.
Like, everyone is different, and honestly though I may get scared, I'd rather know the truth and be able to say that I love him and know what's going on, then him to falsely say he'll be ok then something happen and me never see/talk to him again. I'd rather have that temporary fear, than to never know and feel horrible for the rest of my life for not being able to say goodbye..
That happened with one of my cats.. Something bad happened to him and when we were in the emergency room the nurse at the desk said to calm down that he'll be alright, and they ended up putting him to sleep. I still cry about that sometimes, it was like 7 years ago, and I still sometimes wish I could have told him goodbye.
I do also understand about the catfish thing, but honestly at this point I really don't think that's possible. It's been over 2 years. We Skype all the time, used to use each other's credit cards, I've met his mom and son on Skype, he's getting his passport, etc. And seriously, I don't think any guy could put up with me for this long unless they saw something in me. I'm way too emotional and also very jealous lol.. Idk, I know it;s probably always a possibility until we actually meet, but honeslty, anyone can be fake, even in person. How I see it, you could meet a stranger at a bar or anywhere, get close to them and feel like you know them, then you finally come over and they're some psycho that does creepy things to you.
Idk... getting into a weird subject though...
Also, it bugs me due to him getting together with my mom and a week later he asks her to marry him, then a month after that they get married. And then, maybe a year or so after that they moved 3 states away from my mom's parents. Like isn't that kinda weird too? Isn't that taking her away from her parents? Didn't they accept that and realize she's an adult and needs to live her own life now too?
Even my gma understands and though she's never met or even talked to him she says "I will love him as long as he treats you nice." And accepts that I will go off and start my own life, and grandmas are supposed to be the overly attached ones! Lol.

I honestly feel like almost every week our message in service speaks to our situation, especially to him and how he should be, but because it's not what he wants to hear, he manipulates it and rewords it into his favor.
I just feel he's a hypocrite a lot of times, and though maybe he does only want me safe, he goes so over the top that it makes it into a negative thing. Idek.



Thanks! And no worries ~

- - - Post Merge - - -



Trundle said:


> In terms of Christianity, parents should try to steer their children down the right path. Regardless of this, you are your own person and your decisions are your own. Your parents should love you whether or not they agree with your decisions.
> If you're asking these questions based on your own experience with your parents, it is likely you're perceiving them wanting what is best for you as them judging you decisions. They obviously care about you or they wouldn't bother "judging" you at all.


No, I brought up to him once during a lecture he was giving me about my life choices that I thought God says to not judge others. And he said that as a parent it is his job to judge me and my decision. He straight out said it, which is why I wanted to know.
I understand they care, it's just the way he speaks of it is what really bothers me.



Bowie said:


> I have a feeling this thread won't end well.
> 
> I personally believe religion is one of the most awful things to ever originate on this planet. Now, I have absolutely nothing against religious people (provided they aren't bigots) as I am a very spiritual person myself and understand how awful it is when your personal beliefs are attacked like that, but religion itself is something I hate. I hate the way it tears families apart, can contribute to LGBT+ suicides, and can even turn deadly (Islamic State being only one example). The only religion (if it even counts as a religion) I can really respect is Buddhism, because they don't do anything malicious. They're respectful to all walks of life and preach love, something a lot of religious people tend to forget about completely.
> 
> I classify as an atheist, but I'm very spiritual and I believe in life after death. I just think that we don't know as much as we think we do, and I personally just want to search for myself. I don't like the idea of reading something that tells me things about life. I want to experience them myself and have any religious entity speak to me, if they are existent. I'm on a constant spiritual journey and religion is just not part of that. I'm free.


As long as people can be mature about it (lol, yeah right...) it should go alright ^^

I understand where you come from, seems this generation, you never know what to believe anymore. So much chaos and people doing stupid things.
A problem for both sides is that I do not like the Christians that go overboard and ruin our name over all this LGBT stuff or whatever. Yeah, I don't necessarily agree it's the right thing to be, and think it's a choice, I don't shun them or try to force them to be straight or they'll burn in Hell. I don't do that stuff, yes, I disagree, but as said it's not our place to cast judgement on them and claim what will happen to them. You don't know.
I also respect those that choose to have different religions or were raised to have a different one. I voice my opinion when asked, but I don't force it down their throats.

I do wish ppl didn't take things to such far measures. I also think it's important to find yourself as well, and know where you belong and feel comfortable about it too.


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## Money Hunter (Jun 7, 2015)

I'm not sure what he means by 'you leaving your family'. If it's a problem, just buy them a house near the house of you and your BF? sorry im stupid

If you mean that your BF is a different religion from you and your dad doesn't approve of it, don't try to change his mind. You've already put so much effort into trying to explain to him that this is what you want and it's clear that he doesn't want to change his mind.

Remember that marriages between people of different religions are a very new thing, and there's a lot of mixed opinions about it. Your dad was probably born into a family as strict about religion as he is, but the people around him probably taught him to be less open-minded as kids these days are. He probably is trying to wrap his head around "why his daughter wants to marry that ______ religion guy"

Anyway, I wish the best of luck for both you and your BF!


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## Soda Fox (Jun 7, 2015)

I'm going to keep it brief since I don't even know how long this thread will remain open, but I consider myself a pantheist.  In other words, I believe the universe is "god", and believe we are only governed by natural laws (thermodynamics, conservation of energy, etc.).  I was raised Christian.

I think it's a parent's job to educate their child, help them mature into a capable adult who can take care of themselves, set a good example for them.  I don't think it's up to parent's to judge their children.  I learned growing up that God is the only one who can judge anyone, and even if I don't follow the Christian faith anymore, I still take that lesson to heart.  I also follow the Golden Rule: Treat others as you would like to be treated.  My philosophy works out well for me.  I lead a happy and successful life.  I don't really need anything else in the mix to complicate what I have.


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## Jamborenium (Jun 7, 2015)

here's my thing with religion okay I'm not religious at all, but I can't stand it when people bash others for what they believe in and for what they don't believe in, just because someone believes in God shouldn't give you the right to treat them like they are dumb for believing in something that gives them comfort, and just because someone doesn't believe in God doesn't give you the right to try to shove your views onto them and tell them that they are sinners, seriously just respect each other is it that hard?

oh right because people hate other people having opinions that are different from theirs how silly of me :I

but seriously, you can believe or not believe just don't be a jerk​
- - - Post Merge - - -

also guess I should mention that I'm an apatheist

_an apatheist is someone who considers the question of the existence of gods as neither meaningful nor relevant to their life. Some apatheists hold that if it were possible to prove that God does or does not exist, their behavior would not change._​


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## Beardo (Jun 7, 2015)

I'm agnostic. Even mentions of religion make me really uncomfortable.



Spoiler: Weird stuff



So whenever I went to church (I used to most Sundays) during worship my thoughts got really weird and like, sexual, so that's part of the reason I stopped going. It made me uncomfortable and it felt wrong and I got guilty.



Plus I went to church camp a few years ago and some homophobic statements were made, so I was pissed. It's a sore subject for me now. Whenever people bring up church or ask me if I go I get tense. It's especially awkward when it's mentioned at school and stuff.


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## MyLifeIsCake (Jun 7, 2015)

Spoiler: stuff



I don't want to say that I'm not a spiritual person, because in terms of life after death I do believe that there is something, but that's something we won't experience until we go through it. However, I feel as though I don't affiliate myself with any religion. I wouldn't call it atheism, because I do believe in forces greater than us. But I've never felt right accepting myself into any certain religion. Yes, there are good parts of being a part of a group which shares the same beliefs of good morals, but there are also the negative sides that I won't go into particular about to avoid offending people. I will say this though, I was born and raised in the south, in the 'Bible Belt' if you'd call it that, and religion and traditions seems to push the lives of many people here (not as much as the older days but still...) That being said, I have never spoken a word of how I stand on this topic to any of my family besides my sister. I don't feel safe sharing my feelings on this topic to family, who are all avid church goers, out of the fear of  them never speaking to me again, which wouldn't be the first time its happened due to this issue. It tortures me to feel this way, and maybe I'll 'come out' with this and tell them one day.



Any advice I'd give to someone who is questioning their religious faith would to be go with your own beliefs, even if they are against the ones that surround you. Ultimately, it's what you chose to believe in that will lead your own spirituality.


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## Earth Wolf-Howl (Jun 7, 2015)

I'm personally agnostic. I personally don't mind religion, as long as those who are a part of it respect others' views, but as Bowie said... it's just when it gets to the point when it becomes a catalyst for hatred, I always think that we're better off without it. (No offense to anyone, of course.)

As for your predicament, Kain, here's my viewpoint: I believe it's right if you're still legally a child: after all, it's your parents' duty to teach you right from wrong. But you're not a child. You're legally an adult, which means that you're entitled to make your own decisions, and your parents cannot force you to do anything. So, in this situation: it's wrong. It's not right for your father to guilt trip you into staying around. Besides, it's a fact of life: all children leave home someday. And he seems to forget that you can still communicate with them. If you _really_ didn't love your family, you'd be more likely to break all ties with them.


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## tumut (Jun 7, 2015)

Spoiler: tl;dr



I don't like the idea of organized religion and think everyone should have their own independent beliefs. I don't like how someone might feel bad or guilty or like they're gonna go to hell if they don't believe in something. It's almost like guilt tripping them into believing in something, even though I know they might mean well everyone should feel comfortable to believe what they want. I went to Catholic School for 4 years and I had a religion class that I had to take every year on the Catholic faith as a main class along with Math, English, Science, etc. I like how Christianity can turn someone's life around from drugs or crime or whatever, but they're is just a lot of stuff in the bible I disagree with. What I hate more than anything is how a lot of Christians say you choose to be gay/bi/lesbian etc. I'm gay and I know for a fact that I didn't choose to be gay. It's depressing when you like someone who is straight and know they won't ever like you back. Not to mention that LGBT+ groups are looked down upon by lot of people.And I'm not saying I wanna change who I am or anything. The only reason I could see why anyone would want to be LGBT+ is if they really wanted attention or wanted to be a special snowflake. I also don't like some of the sexist things in the bible, how eating too much food is actually a sin (gluttony), and how they believe if you aren't saved you go to hell even you never heard of Christianity and live in some remote area of the world. This is from the Christians I've spoken to, I know this doesn't apply to everyone. And of course you're not a bad person and it's not wrong to believe these things, I just don't agree with them. I personally believe there's a higher form of power in the universe, but don't really worship anything and just believe in being a good person overall ( I think that's agnostic?)


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## Alolan_Apples (Jun 7, 2015)

I'm a Christian here, but I don't seem to value religion enough. I don't go to church, not very often. I do plan on going back to church frequently someday.


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## Jake (Jun 7, 2015)

I'm a Christian Muslim and whenever I am struggling I listen to these songs:


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## Lady Timpani (Jun 7, 2015)

Yeah, I can see this getting closed, but I may as well enjoy it for now. 

I'm very interested in spirituality as a whole. I really like learning about different religions, and while I don't really identify with any as of right now, I think there's some truth to most, if not all, religions out there. I've been trying to learn more about pagan religions recently, and I find them very fascinating.


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## Jake (Jun 7, 2015)

Lady Timpani said:


> Yeah, I can see this getting closed, but I may as well enjoy it for now.



It's only going to get closed if people flame others


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## Trundle (Jun 7, 2015)

Beardo said:


> Spoiler: Weird stuff
> 
> 
> 
> So whenever I went to church (I used to most Sundays) during worship my thoughts got really weird and like, sexual, so that's part of the reason I stopped going. It made me uncomfortable and it felt wrong and I got guilty.


LOL that's very weird
I know you're not blaming church but that's clearly nothing to do with religion, that's all ur own crap


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## Yukari Yakumo (Jun 7, 2015)

I personally am agnostic.  There hasn't really been anything that appeals to me.
When I was a kid, my parents took me to Sunday school, but it was never something vital to me.  
At one point, we simply stopped going and I wasn't very concerned.  Years later, my mother and step-mother(who has since left our lives), decided we needed to start going to church, and so I was dragged along.  This was not enjoyable at all, seeing as how there was no choice on my end.  I was there unwillingly and that added a sense of disdain to the process that has never quite gone away.  I was left wondering "Why are we suddenly into it again?  We were fine without it."  
I don't approve of organized religion.  The ceremony and tradition always feel hollow;  tradition for tradition's sake always really gets me miffed.

On a related and cheerier note, I just finished my minor on Religious Studies, so I've seen many of the arguments for one side or another and I've heard way better in class than any sermon I was subjected to.
My college also likes to have a public debate each semester on whether God(as in creator of the universe) exists or not.  Always interesting, though the God side doesn't seem to bring any new arguments and often forgets the 2 big rules for their side: 1) the bible is not a sitable source, and 2) "I feel him in my heart" is not valid evidence


Spoiler



One thing of great interest I learned is that a person's interpretation of God(or whatever gods you choose; I'll just say God as a placeholder) is usually defined by their relationship with their parents.
If their relationship is good, God resembles their parents in behavior.  If the relationship is bad, God is the opposite.
Example(fictional but demonstrative): Ned Flanders.  The uber-Christian who is known for having said "I did all the stuff you told me to.  Even all the stuff that contradicts the other stuff."  Ned Flanders hates his parents who are permissive beatnicks.  Therefore, God resembles what he considers the ideal parents he never had: strict, by-the-book, rule obsessed, etc.


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## rev1175 (Jun 7, 2015)

I'm definitely not a religious person. I was raised in what you could call a Christian household; went to church every Sunday, prayed before dinner, all of that stuff pretty much! My family was pretty active in church activities with dinners and Sunday schools and all. But at the same time, my parents definitely weren't what you'd think of big scripture-type people (we knew a gay couple who were kind of family friends I think). Of course being younger and in a household more loose on religion, it was never really that huge of a focus for me. If someone ever asked about my beliefs, I'd easily tell them I was a Christian and carry on with my business. 

It was around 14 years old when I really started to question all of it. I was very curious about other beliefs and the truth in my own. Basically a new chapter in life when I was trying to figure out what's true. For a brief period of time, I considered myself Agnostic, being open to really any possibilities, but after some time, the idea of a God just seemed more and more unlikely to me, which lead me to calling myself an Agnostic Atheist (I don't believe in God, but I still acknowledge the fact that there's no way to know for sure.)

It was a very quick transition for me - just a few months actually! I don't have any problems with religion of course, and I do think that there can be truth found in just about every one. Some more than others, IMO. It is a bit difficult telling people, though. I live in Tennessee, so just about everyone I know is a Christian, and I just don't know how to tell them I'm not a believer. So I just keep silent, really, because it's not that important anyways.

*TL;DR:* I'm an Atheist, but if you're religious, that's cool too!


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## Astro Cake (Jun 7, 2015)

I wonder how long this thread has to live.

Anyway, I'm not religious. My parents only took me to church once or twice when I was very little and we never went again after that. I went to a Catholic school for two years of middle school and didn't particularly enjoy any of the religious aspect of it. For a while after that I called myself and atheist, but later on I just sort of stopped caring altogether. I wouldn't call myself an atheist today, more like I'm impassive on having any religious belief or lack thereof.


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## KainAronoele (Jun 8, 2015)

Money Hunter said:


> I'm not sure what he means by 'you leaving your family'. If it's a problem, just buy them a house near the house of you and your BF? sorry im stupid
> 
> If you mean that your BF is a different religion from you and your dad doesn't approve of it, don't try to change his mind. You've already put so much effort into trying to explain to him that this is what you want and it's clear that he doesn't want to change his mind.
> 
> ...


No, it's not about my bf's religion. Honestly, my bf's kinda in between due to how he was raised and also coming out of a bad place, but I think his son is helping him grow to realize his path. He's also open to talking about it with me, which is good as well.
The problem is a lot of factors for my dad. How we met, how old he is, that he has a kid, that he lives so far away, that supposedly everything he hears about my bf is 'suspicious', etc.




Soda Fox said:


> I'm going to keep it brief since I don't even know how long this thread will remain open, but I consider myself a pantheist.  In other words, I believe the universe is "god", and believe we are only governed by natural laws (thermodynamics, conservation of energy, etc.).  I was raised Christian.
> 
> I think it's a parent's job to educate their child, help them mature into a capable adult who can take care of themselves, set a good example for them.  I don't think it's up to parent's to judge their children.  I learned growing up that God is the only one who can judge anyone, and even if I don't follow the Christian faith anymore, I still take that lesson to heart.  I also follow the Golden Rule: Treat others as you would like to be treated.  My philosophy works out well for me.  I lead a happy and successful life.  I don't really need anything else in the mix to complicate what I have.


I've never heard of that religion before :0

My dad brings up that rule a lot too, but only to my brother now really.
It sucks because my mother understands that, but then my dad manipulates her to think otherwise.





Nebudelic said:


> here's my thing with religion okay I'm not religious at all, but I can't stand it when people bash others for what they believe in and for what they don't believe in, just because someone believes in God shouldn't give you the right to treat them like they are dumb for believing in something that gives them comfort, and just because someone doesn't believe in God doesn't give you the right to try to shove your views onto them and tell them that they are sinners, seriously just respect each other is it that hard?
> 
> oh right because people hate other people having opinions that are different from theirs how silly of me :I
> 
> ...


I've never heard of this religion either o .o
So many I don't know about lol.




Beardo said:


> Spoiler: Weird stuff
> 
> 
> 
> So whenever I went to church (I used to most Sundays) during worship my thoughts got really weird and like, sexual, so that's part of the reason I stopped going. It made me uncomfortable and it felt wrong and I got guilty.





Spoiler



Honestly, and quite shamefully, I sometimes do the same thing. Then I'm like wtf man, you're in church!! Clear that out..
It's really disturbing sometimes... D:






Earth Wolf-Howl said:


> As for your predicament, Kain, here's my viewpoint: I believe it's right if you're still legally a child: after all, it's your parents' duty to teach you right from wrong. But you're not a child. You're legally an adult, which means that you're entitled to make your own decisions, and your parents cannot force you to do anything. So, in this situation: it's wrong. It's not right for your father to guilt trip you into staying around. Besides, it's a fact of life: all children leave home someday. And he seems to forget that you can still communicate with them. If you _really_ didn't love your family, you'd be more likely to break all ties with them.


He has a knack for guilt tripping. He also once told me that the reason they didn't get me a car for my 18th bday is cuz they thought I'd take it and run away to be with him, without saying anything to them.
I get I'm kind of a reserved person, but to accuse me of that really hurt.. That despite everything I do for them and others, that they still think inside that's who I really am. Someone who doesn't care for my family and would just get up and leave without saying a word.
I never thought I'd be able to do anything to have someone think that I was that heartless...




Jake. said:


> I'm a Christian Muslim and whenever I am struggling I listen to these songs:


Love the 1st one ^^ Used to hear it a lot when I was younger.
She made some good songs ~


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## radical6 (Jun 8, 2015)

i dont trust Christianity anymore coz of past traumatic experiences whoops


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## MissiNy (Jun 8, 2015)

Bowie said:


> I have a feeling this thread won't end well.
> 
> I personally believe religion is one of the most awful things to ever originate on this planet. Now, I have absolutely nothing against religious people (provided they aren't bigots) as I am a very spiritual person myself and understand how awful it is when your personal beliefs are attacked like that, but religion itself is something I hate. I hate the way it tears families apart, can contribute to LGBT+ suicides, and can even turn deadly (Islamic State being only one example). The only religion (if it even counts as a religion) I can really respect is Buddhism, because they don't do anything malicious. They're respectful to all walks of life and preach love, something a lot of religious people tend to forget about completely.
> 
> I classify as an atheist, but I'm very spiritual and I believe in life after death. I just think that we don't know as much as we think we do, and I personally just want to search for myself. I don't like the idea of reading something that tells me things about life. I want to experience them myself and have any religious entity speak to me, if they are existent. I'm on a constant spiritual journey and religion is just not part of that. I'm free.



My feelings as well.. This is how we are raising our daughter as well.. My husband had his beliefs forced on him, like most parents do, at a young age. How then is someone supposed to decide what they believe? We are raising my daughter to keep an open mind.. If she wants to become a Christian, or Buddhist, thats fine by me, We want her to make that choice.. I remember my best friend growing up, her family was OVERLY involved in the catholic church. She would always come to me confused, crying because she had questions about the things she was being taught , disbeliefs and she was deathly afraid to tell her parents, knowing how they would react.. I couldn't imagine my child being afraid to tell me anything. We as parents should want our children to come to us when they have a question about anything.. How can one expect their child to go down the path of self discovery properly when they are forced to believe is anything.. Beliefs should come from within, not because someone tells you that you should..


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## Nay (Jun 8, 2015)

Oh.. well.. I do think God exists, but not in the conventional form that a lot of organized religions say, like the theory that God is a man or woman or taking care of humanity. I think it's more like a force of nature .. I believe Deism is the correct term for it. I don't pray or go to any religious institution tho .. While I can respect the people that do so, it often feels too empty for me to pray for something that may or may not happen.



Spoiler: personal experiences



I went to Christian church frequently as a kid, and ultimately I felt like they were forgiving me for something I hadn't even done wrong .. Not their fault, perhaps I was too sensitive, but I can't tolerate being with people who lowkey judge others, especially under the guise of religion or positivity.


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## KainAronoele (Jun 8, 2015)

MissiNy said:


> My feelings as well.. This is how we are raising our daughter as well.. My husband had his beliefs forced on him, like most parents do, at a young age. How then is someone supposed to decide what they believe? We are raising my daughter to keep an open mind.. If she wants to become a Christian, or Buddhist, thats fine by me, We want her to make that choice.. I remember my best friend growing up, her family was OVERLY involved in the catholic church. She would always come to me confused, crying because she had questions about the things she was being taught , disbeliefs and she was deathly afraid to tell her parents, knowing how they would react.. I couldn't imagine my child being afraid to tell me anything. We as parents should want our children to come to us when they have a question about anything.. How can one expect their child to go down the path of self discovery properly when they are forced to believe is anything.. Beliefs should come from within, not because someone tells you that you should..



Reading this, it kinda hit me hard.
We're not Catholic, but my dad supposedly being a "big believer" and on top of that being strict as hell, when my brother told me he was gay, seriously I started crying.. For a few reasons. Due to my belief I really don't know what would happen to him, but the possibility of him not going to Heaven as we would (or hope we would) really scared me, as I'd hate my bro to eternally be in pain over his choice. I cried and hugged him, and I prayed. I didn't pray for him to decide not to be gay, but I prayed that he'd end up being ok. I was also scared about how my parents would react and what they might say or do to him.
When it was finally known to them my dad pretty much wanted to disown my brother, and said that he wasn't his son, cuz his son would know better.
I think one of the problems with Christianity and why so many run away from it is because of everyone shoving it in our faces, and if we do something wrong, instead of calmly explaining to us why it's wrong, or help us to read the Bible and understand it, they just yell at us that it's wrong and that if you do this we don't want to hear it or we don't care or it's wrong so fix it or whatever. Why would ppl want to be a part of that, why would we want to stay and have it shoved into us again and again and feel like it's such a hostile atmosphere. Really I don't think that's what God was intending for it to be like. Everything was calmness or persuasion back then, now it's do this right or we yell at you, lecture you and force you into this.

Kind of became a small rant, sorry about that > .<


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## Yukari Yakumo (Jun 8, 2015)

rev1175 said:


> It was a very quick transition for me - just a few months actually! I don't have any problems with religion of course, and I do think that there can be truth found in just about every one. Some more than others, IMO. It is a bit difficult telling people, though. I live in Tennessee, so just about everyone I know is a Christian, and I just don't know how to tell them I'm not a believer. So I just keep silent, really, because it's not that important anyways.
> 
> *TL;DR:* I'm an Atheist, but if you're religious, that's cool too!


Regarding coming out as atheist, I would say be aware and careful.
You could make the case it's like being non-heterosexual; some have good, supportive, tolerant people around them, others are surrounded by the most sick individuals.



KainAronoele said:


> He has a knack for guilt tripping. He also once told me that the reason they didn't get me a car for my 18th bday is cuz they thought I'd take it and run away to be with him, without saying anything to them.
> I get I'm kind of a reserved person, but to accuse me of that really hurt.. That despite everything I do for them and others, that they still think inside that's who I really am. Someone who doesn't care for my family and would just get up and leave without saying a word.
> I never thought I'd be able to do anything to have someone think that I was that heartless...


That's just being manipulative.  I don't think his problem has anything to do with religion at that point.  Sorry if this sounds cruel to say about your dad, but it may be that he's simply an intolerant and cruel person(I kinda know how that feels since I'm not my dad's biggest fan either).



KainAronoele said:


> Reading this, it kinda hit me hard.
> We're not Catholic, but my dad supposedly being a "big believer" and on top of that being strict as hell, when my brother told me he was gay, seriously I started crying.. For a few reasons. Due to my belief I really don't know what would happen to him, but the possibility of him not going to Heaven as we would (or hope we would) really scared me, as I'd hate my bro to eternally be in pain over his choice. I cried and hugged him, and I prayed. I didn't pray for him to decide not to be gay, but I prayed that he'd end up being ok. I was also scared about how my parents would react and what they might say or do to him.
> When it was finally known to them my dad pretty much wanted to disown my brother, and said that he wasn't his son, cuz his son would know better.


I'd mention to you a story I heard on a podcast once.
This man had converted to atheism, and his family still went to church.  One day his young daughter came home crying after hearing/being told(not sure) that they would not be together in Heaven as he would go to Hell since he was an atheist.  He comforted his daughter by saying that God was a loving parent to everyone, just like he was to his daughter.  He(the dad) would never let anything bad happen to his daughter, even if it was something she was doing(i.e. he wouldn't allow her to bring herself to harm).  If God is just like that to everyone, then Hell can't exist because God would never allow that to happen to or do something like that to someone he loved(i.e. everyone).


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## Le Ham (Jun 8, 2015)

Spoiler: my long, winding story of how I became Christian



I'm being raised in a secular household. My dad was raised Catholic, but had it easier for him to leave it because he was the youngest of 8. Now he's an atheist, and when the topic of religion comes up, he often cites his disliking for the fighting that goes on within and between religions. I would be atheist like him if I hadn't found God the way I did.
My mom was raised a type of Christian, and though she believes in God and Jesus, she doesn't actively pray or go anywhere or do anything, she doesn't really revere the Bible that much... basically, the most you can safely say about her beliefs is that she _claims_ to be a Christian.
I have an older brother, but he has somewhat low-functioning autism and I'm not sure he has a well-developed concept of who God even is. He probably doesn't think about things like that, and if he did it would likely be hard for him.
The reason I know of God is because of the schools I was enrolled at. My parents paid for me to go to Christian private schools, because in Florida that's usually the most prominent type of private school around, especially Catholic schools. They put me there purely for the academic/educational benefit, and the religion I suppose was just a bonus they didn't care about and that they didn't think I'd catch on to.
Near the end of 6th grade, I told my teacher I didn't believe in God. She said she'd pray for me. At the time, I started catching on to the presence of a thing called Illuminati. I read about it, watched videos/documentaries about it, and it interested me how the entertainment industry was run by them... it still does. Naturally, I couldn't get my parents to believe me; my dad thought I was joking when I brought it up. This was actually the start of my faith, this part where I learned of "the powers that be" and kept my belief in its existence despite the differing ideas of my parents, and this might've been the reason God took me as far as He did. 
As I studied deeper, I found the connection between the Illuminati and everything surrounding it: Satan. My thought process was probably different back then, but logical thought would have led me to think "If there is a Satan and people worship him and there are witches that use his power, then by all means there must be a God." I began to believe again, and it turned out that my brief period of atheism was as much a phase as I'll bet my dad wants to think that my Christianity is a phase.
Anyway, over the course of my middle school years, which were spent in a Catholic school that had much more religious influence than the place I went for 6th and below, I began to get depressed over a different matter that I was constantly being taught about, which I struggled with up until freshman year. During this period, I began to find websites talking about the bad practices of the Catholic religion. It began to show to me in class, how their doctrines began to make less sense and seemed more like a system of corruption. I began my search on what it means to be a true Christian, and I am still on this search today, all the while praying and reading and researching. I notice that whenever I seek, I find, often a lot more than I'm asking to know. I see the connections between Bible verses and daily life. I see the lies behind secular and religious systems, the media and the government's "plans." With no human help besides what I've been given in Catholic religion classes and a church I got up the courage to ask my mum to take me to (and eventually found something in it to disagree with), I'm seeking the truth, that which I've only found in God and what He's given to me. He changed my life around, and you can say that's stupid, but even if I die wrong about His existence, I'd rather live ignorant of that fact because otherwise we're all pieces of meat with no actual reason for being here, and no reason for being able to think the way we do; life would be a trap we're stuck in pointlessly until it ends. And really, I think that's the stupid idea to live on.


Personally, I think people err on all sides of the equation. Like KainAronoele said above, the way people shove the stuff down your throat is not Christ-like at all. Believing is a choice that has to be made by the individual, not the parents or anyone else with authority over them. If I had a family, I would teach my kids what Christianity is, take them to a good church that teaches the good stuff, but if they reject God's Word, that's not my problem, and that's not my fault as a parent. I've done what I can; I've given them the information. The best I can do at that point is to sit back and watch how they react to it. It's their choice that lands them where they're going to end up, and I want them to know that and understand that. I will still pray for them if that's what it comes to, but in the end it's still their choice what they do with their life and their beliefs.

I think the whole idea of finding "evidence" for God's existence is absolutely absurd. I posted it on the "Do you believe in miracles" thread and I ended up killing the thread. You want to find my reasons, there they are... now that I've checked, the thread's on the second page of the board.


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## MissiNy (Jun 8, 2015)

KainAronoele said:


> Reading this, it kinda hit me hard.
> We're not Catholic, but my dad supposedly being a "big believer" and on top of that being strict as hell, when my brother told me he was gay, seriously I started crying.. For a few reasons. Due to my belief I really don't know what would happen to him, but the possibility of him not going to Heaven as we would (or hope we would) really scared me, as I'd hate my bro to eternally be in pain over his choice. I cried and hugged him, and I prayed. I didn't pray for him to decide not to be gay, but I prayed that he'd end up being ok. I was also scared about how my parents would react and what they might say or do to him.
> When it was finally known to them my dad pretty much wanted to disown my brother, and said that he wasn't his son, cuz his son would know better.
> I think one of the problems with Christianity and why so many run away from it is because of everyone shoving it in our faces, and if we do something wrong, instead of calmly explaining to us why it's wrong, or help us to read the Bible and understand it, they just yell at us that it's wrong and that if you do this we don't want to hear it or we don't care or it's wrong so fix it or whatever. Why would ppl want to be a part of that, why would we want to stay and have it shoved into us again and again and feel like it's such a hostile atmosphere. Really I don't think that's what God was intending for it to be like. Everything was calmness or persuasion back then, now it's do this right or we yell at you, lecture you and force you into this.
> ...



I'm sorry that was so tough on you. But you did deal with it the right way for YOU. It is a shame that you had to worry for your brother, but so it is with MANY young adults.. Not just over being Homosexual, or bisexual, but smaller things too.. I agree that if it wasnt so shoved at people, and they were to discover any religion on their own that more people would embrace the idea.. Unfortunately this is not the world we live in... The very first chance my friend got to break free she did, and being repressed for so many years, she went nuts and almost got herself killed.. Beliefs should be made out of love not fear. stated.. I have no issue with what anyone wants to believe... It is your choice. Just like i have a choice, everyone should have a choice.. Its taking away someones choice that breeds resentment.


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## KaydeeKrunk (Jun 8, 2015)

I am honestly not a huge fan of religion, but at the same time think Faith in ones self is exceptionally important. I am very spiritual person, and I know things that I believe in aren't popular so I do have respect for people so fervent in their beliefs because I think having strong beliefs in very important. I consider myself a Secular Witch, and I get openly mocked for my religion so much that I don't talk about it very much. I don't really consider being a witch so much a religion as it is my mentality, if that makes any sense? I believe religion has more to do if you believe in a god or gods, or follow a certain path set fourth by rules and such. Mine is more of a spiritual thing than anything.

The only thing that really bothers me about people who are religious is when they have the whole "I'm right, and you need to believe in what I believe" mentality. Or the "shoving it down your throat" kind of thing. All my life I have known these people and it sucks because if anything has any microscopic connection to religion that's all they can talk about, and it's not much of talking as it is yelling and arguing even if you're not arguing back. I've cut those people out of my life now and keep myself as far from them as possible. As a child though sadly I was forced into relationships with lots of those people, as I was deemed "Christian" by my family and made to go to Church, Church Camp, Awanas, and even a Day Care held at a Church all summer long, where they literally read us scripture and made us watch religious movies. I also got drafted into a young girls sector of the Freemasons, that's right, the damn Illuminati you guys. But to be honest I believed in God on and off until I was like 10 because that's really all I ever knew. It was amazing to finally be free of it though, being able to have my own beliefs. and I know that when I have children they will be free to believe in whatever they want. I just don't think it's fair to force someone to believe in anything they don't. 

I have plenty of religious friends and I don't think of them any less, they're entitled to believe what they want, and I mean all religions are based around the same sort of main principle, and it's that you're putting out belief to achieve something, and basically my spell work and what have you are no more than prayers just done a little differently, and without a deity to answer them. 

*tldr;* I'm a witch, I grew up Christian, I don't mind other religions as long as they aren't shoving it down anyone's throat.


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## Yukari Yakumo (Jun 8, 2015)

Some food for thought:


> I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
> Susan B. Anthony





> If I were not an atheist, I would believe in a God who would choose to save people on the basis of the totality of their lives and not the pattern of their words. I think he would prefer an honest and righteous atheist to a TV preacher whose every word is God, God, God, and whose every deed is foul, foul, foul.
> Isaac Asimov





> Ekam Sath Viprah Bahudha Vadanti
> There is but one Truth, but sages call it by different Names
> The Rigveda


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## Le Ham (Jun 8, 2015)

Can I just say that not everyone who claims to be a Christian, acts the way a Christian should (at least by Biblical standards)...

Like many Christians are judgmental, swear like sailors, are seriously not very nice people, "draw to [Him] nigh with their lips but their hearts are far from [Him]" like some TV preachers like mentioned above, some say God hates certain people when it's not the person we're supposed to be hating, it's the sin... and by that logic God would therefore hate everyone, because everyone sins. I sin, I can be mean, perverted, or other bad things, but I'm at least trying to do something about it and I work on bettering myself as a person with God's help, knowing I still can't be perfect anyway. "All sin and fall short of the glory of God" so why should God love some over others based on sinfulness? He's merciful and will forgive based on the situation.

That doesn't necessarily mean, at least Biblically, that He will save everyone; I believe He will save those who truly want to be saved, those who put in the commitment and effort required in a relationship with God to be saved. Cradle Christians who just go through the motions because they're being made to by their family or school, never try to learn anything about God, and act like hypocrites all the time without caring, and see God as just a tool? I don't think God would save that kind of person. "Many are called, but few are chosen," as the verse goes.

Some atheists don't understand, because as an outsider looking in, they only see the "ugly" side of Christianity, and they begin think we're all like that. I feel kind of sorry for them in that regard, but when they base our validity on "oh, Hitler said he was Christian so God must've saved him and let Jews die" just no. Any Christian in their right mind and with a right understanding of the book they follow doesn't go about deceiving people into thinking there is a "master race" or murdering millions because of race, orientation, or anything else. Though I try to see it their way, it seems like sometimes the kind of atheists that bring those things up are trying to make us look bad.


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## Yukari Yakumo (Jun 8, 2015)

ChooChooMuffin said:


> Can I just say that not everyone who claims to be a Christian, acts the way a Christian should (at least by Biblical standards)...
> 
> Like many Christians are judgmental, swear like sailors, are seriously not very nice people, "draw to [Him] nigh with their lips but their hearts are far from [Him]" like some TV preachers like mentioned above, some say God hates certain people when it's not the person we're supposed to be hating, it's the sin... and by that logic God would therefore hate everyone, because everyone sins. I sin, I can be mean, perverted, or other bad things, but I'm at least trying to do something about it and I work on bettering myself as a person with God's help, knowing I still can't be perfect anyway. "All sin and fall short of the glory of God" so why should God love some over others based on sinfulness? He's merciful and will forgive based on the situation.
> 
> ...


Sadly, while the unpleasants do not define the group, they can't be fully removed from it either.
There's a reason "No True Scotsman" is a fallacy.
Also, "understanding" and "accepting" are two different things.  An atheist may look at the good _and_ the bad and come to the conclusion that the bad outweighs the good.

I'm always skeptical when a person claims that someone else doesn't understand.  Whenever I hear those words I remember the immortal words of Homer J Simpson:






[SPOILER="No True Scotsman" Explained]



[/SPOILER]


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## Spongebob (Jun 8, 2015)

I don't believe there's a gosh


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## Yukari Yakumo (Jun 8, 2015)

Spongebob said:


> I don't believe there's a gosh


I also doubt there are gosh's.


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## Stalfos (Jun 8, 2015)

People can't handle religion. That's what I believe.


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## Angelmarina (Jun 8, 2015)

Currently I am an agnostic atheist. One thing I hate is when people judge you for your beliefs, I have ran into that a lot in my life. My birth mother is Catholic and my adopted mother is Christian. I struggled a lot with religion when I was younger because my adopted mother forced her religion on me when it was clearly something that I didn't want, and in turn I ended up growing bitter towards it. Eventually I gave up all together, I 'tried' other religions but they just weren't for me, believing in god just never logically clicked in my brain. I guess the reason why I'm agnostic is because I am very spiritual and I believe that if any gods were to exist it would be the ones in greek mythology. Now, I'm not saying I go out and make people feel bad about their religion because I don't. I have many religious friends, but I just get so annoyed when people try to force their religion on me. Like I guess its okay to talk about but respect what I choose to believe. I feel like atheists sort of, in a manner of speaking, get spit on for their beliefs or lack of because they are not widely accepted. Especially in the US from what I experienced. ^^



Spoiler: KainAronoele



*If you're a parent, is it your "job" to judge your children on what they do and choose in life, even if you're now an adult? As far as I was aware of, you're not supposed to judge anyone as it is not our place. So how can it be their JOB to do so?*

From growing up in a very Christian oriented household I can tell you that this is not something based purely on religion. Sometimes parents raise their children a certain way because they want them to grow up to be like them or be what they couldn't be. It also can be that maybe your dad worries about you and wants to make sure you have the best life that you can possibly have. 

I do not think that it is a parents job to judge their children at all not matter how old they are, it leads to very unhealthy problems. But regardless, to your parent you will always be their child, and thats not going to change even when you are 30 or even older. As far as religion goes, no we should not judge others it isn't our place, not if you are Christian, you are suppose to love everyone for who they are. But like I said before this seems like something outside of religion, if this is something that greatly bothers you it may be best to talk to your dad. I had a similar situation like this happen with my adopted mom and talking to her is impossible so it turned into a very long and strongly worded text message conversation (I'm in college so seeing her in person is rare.) Sometimes you just need to communicate with your parents and let them know that they have raised you well, reassure them, but that they have to trust you to make the right decisions now. It's your life and you have to be the one to live it and you want to be happy and if that means that you date a boy they don't like or go into a career they don't approve of, they have to accept that you as their child will do the right thing for you and make them proud in a way that they wouldn't expect. No matter how stubborn they are or how much they are against it they are your parents. Hope this helped!


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## kayleee (Jun 8, 2015)

Frankly I cannot understand how people do believe in an Almighty Creator this day in age, because I don't really understand how it's possible to deny science and logic but at the end of the day if you're a theist and you do you and you let me do me then who really cares if you're a "believer" or not. But if you're a believer and an ultra ****ty person (I'm looking at you Westboro baptist church) I hope bad things happen to you


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## Pharaoh (Jun 8, 2015)

Every group or belief has this section of nutter extremists, so I don't like belonging to large sects with lots of rules, they're all self-imposed and a way to control others. I've become a very bitter and cynical person recently so I have no idea what my own ideas are, I usually don't think about them because I don't mind dying either way, in fact I sort of welcome it, so it doesn't much matter to me in the present what happens or if there's anything out there. I really hate large drawn out discussions from religious people or atheists though, don't you have anything else to obsessively talk about in a hostile manner, like the newest episode of Chopped on Food Network like damn, you have to discuss the meaning of the Universe 24/7? Have some doritos and calm down.


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## DoctorGallifrey (Jun 8, 2015)

I'm an atheist. 
I was raised a Baptist and over time I have juggled with various religions (and denominations within Christianity) and never find one that I liked. Not only that I got to the point where I started to question everything with religion such as God being all knowing (which is what I've been taught since I was little), the aspect of Heaven & Hell being pointless if God is all knowing, and other things with Christianity that I've learned over the years that just made me stop believing in general.


I don't have a problem with Religion in general, and if someone follows one I wont heckle or belittle someone for their religion. All I ask is to not have religion shoved down my throat by anyone. If later I find some reason to believe again I want it to be because of my own accord not through force


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## Le Ham (Jun 8, 2015)

Pharaoh said:


> Every group or belief has this section of nutter extremists, so I don't like belonging to large sects with lots of rules, they're all self-imposed and a way to control others. I've become a very bitter and cynical person recently so I have no idea what my own ideas are, I usually don't think about them because I don't mind dying either way, in fact I sort of welcome it, so it doesn't much matter to me in the present what happens or if there's anything out there. I really hate large drawn out discussions from religious people or atheists though, don't you have anything else to obsessively talk about in a hostile manner, like the newest episode of Chopped on Food Network like damn, you have to discuss the meaning of the Universe 24/7? Have some doritos and calm down.



Agreed. You can still have a belief without being in a sect/cult, though. Lots of them are legitimately out there to make $$$ or corrupt people.

Regarding hostile debates... some militant atheists I've encountered will go into religious groups, usually on the Internet, and start bashing them and having unintelligent, insulting arguments with them because they think it's *fun* (I even asked one who was doing it to me). There are some that are pretty much shoving atheism down others' throats the same way many religious people do, and trying to shame them for believing what they believe, not letting them get a word in edgewise and bending their statements like politicians (or the way some bend the words of the Bible/cherry pick to make it mean what they want it to). I look at their G+ feeds and it's literally all they ever post or talk about; it seems to be the only characteristic that they let define themselves. I mean, some religious probably do it too, but that's the point: atheists being preachy about their beliefs the way people who actually believe in God do... religious atheists. lol. So yeah there's some crazy everywhere on the spectrum. 

I even get sick of trying to debate these things at times. I have other interests besides professing my beliefs and defending them, as important as it may be. Like guys chill out, grab a Coke, play some MarioKart, turn Spotify up, and live for awhile, why don't you.


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## L. Lawliet (Jun 8, 2015)

Im agnostic. Was formerly Lutheran, Christian, and Mormon. I felt alienated and judged by them, so i was atheist for a bit. But now i am agnostic and chill with everyone. As long as they arent darude about it.


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## microsoftdrink (Jun 8, 2015)

I was raised Christian, but recently my family wanted to go to a new church. Well in order to become a member of the Church you have to be baptized, My sister and I aren't. My father is *forcing* us to. He proclaims it to be "good for you". In the end, he really is doing this to make himself look better in the church.


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## KainAronoele (Jun 8, 2015)

microsoftdrink said:


> I was raised Christian, but recently my family wanted to go to a new church. Well in order to become a member of the Church you have to be baptized, My sister and I aren't. My father is *forcing* us to. He proclaims it to be "good for you". In the end, he really is doing this to make himself look better in the church.



Forcing? Honestly, that is a sin I'm pretty sure. Either to force someone to when not ready and/or getting baptized when not fully comfortable with it or feel Christ is with you completely.
You should NEVER get baptized if you aren't completely ready, he needs to understand that cuz honestly it's one of the 1st things you should learn when becoming a Christian. Like.. He can't force you. That in and of itself is unholy.


(I'll respond to others soon, bit busy today, but I do read and plan to respond, this just really struck me lol)


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## Pharaoh (Jun 8, 2015)

ChooChooMuffin said:


> Agreed. You can still have a belief without being in a sect/cult, though. Lots of them are legitimately out there to make $$$ or corrupt people.
> 
> Regarding hostile debates... some militant atheists I've encountered will go into religious groups, usually on the Internet, and start bashing them and having unintelligent, insulting arguments with them because they think it's *fun* (I even asked one who was doing it to me). There are some that are pretty much shoving atheism down others' throats the same way many religious people do, and trying to shame them for believing what they believe, not letting them get a word in edgewise and bending their statements like politicians (or the way some bend the words of the Bible/cherry pick to make it mean what they want it to). I look at their G+ feeds and it's literally all they ever post or talk about; it seems to be the only characteristic that they let define themselves. I mean, some religious probably do it too, but that's the point: atheists being preachy about their beliefs the way people who actually believe in God do... religious atheists. lol. So yeah there's some crazy everywhere on the spectrum.
> 
> I even get sick of trying to debate these things at times. I have other interests besides professing my beliefs and defending them, as important as it may be. Like guys chill out, grab a Coke, play some MarioKart, turn Spotify up, and live for awhile, why don't you.



That's always the thing that gets me, people looking specifically for just an argument. Like that's what fulfills you as a person is tearing into peoples lives and spirituality and ripping apart the beauty they try to see in life all under this pompous attitude like they're actually helping people "see the light." For one, arguing with someone and telling them they're never going to see their dead loved ones again, probably not the best way to make someone understand your lack of belief. That's just debate 101, you don't attack someone personally on something that's usually emotionally-driven and then expect top tier results, why in the world would anyone listen to what you have to say if it's driven on hate or negativity of any kind? Likewise why would anyone listen to you if you're preaching about money, hatred, or intolerance based on so called religious values? Nobody is perfect and knows it all, so people need a healthy dose of humility and basic common sense.


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## Tao (Jun 8, 2015)

KainAronoele said:


> Forcing? Honestly, that is a sin I'm pretty sure. Either to force someone to when not ready and/or getting baptized when not fully comfortable with it or feel Christ is with you completely.
> You should NEVER get baptized if you aren't completely ready, he needs to understand that cuz honestly it's one of the 1st things you should learn when becoming a Christian. Like.. He can't force you. That in and of itself is unholy.
> 
> 
> (I'll respond to others soon, bit busy today, but I do read and plan to respond, this just really struck me lol)




Does this mean that if you were baptized as a baby, it doesn't count and your parents are sinners?

I mean, it's pretty much forcing you. How do they know you're comfortable or ready to do it if you're a baby?


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## Trundle (Jun 8, 2015)

kayleee said:


> Frankly I cannot understand how people do believe in an Almighty Creator this day in age, because I don't really understand how it's possible to deny science and logic but at the end of the day if you're a theist and you do you and you let me do me then who really cares if you're a "believer" or not. But if you're a believer and an ultra ****ty person (I'm looking at you Westboro baptist church) I hope bad things happen to you



I don't think you really know much about what you're talking about.

1. Science and logic do exist in religion. While most people (including you) have little to no knowledge of it, it's quite prevalent. (edit: and to back up my statement, the fact that you assumed logic doesn't exist in religion is quite illogical of you. If you really believed such a thing you would have researched it first)

2. Westboro Baptist Church is a cult based off of Christianity.

- - - Post Merge - - -



microsoftdrink said:


> I was raised Christian, but recently my family wanted to go to a new church. Well in order to become a member of the Church you have to be baptized, My sister and I aren't. My father is *forcing* us to. He proclaims it to be "good for you". In the end, he really is doing this to make himself look better in the church.



Some churches do this although it's not based on any Biblical teachings. Although, if you want to be a member of the church, it would probably make sense for you to be baptized anyway. 



Tao said:


> Does this mean that if you were baptized as a baby, it doesn't count and your parents are sinners?
> 
> I mean, it's pretty much forcing you. How do they know you're comfortable or ready to do it if you're a baby?



Only catholic and strongly liturgical churches baptize babies. Catholic churches are actually quite endowed in old and strange habits that the modern church doesn't agree with.


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## Jarrad (Jun 8, 2015)

Trundle said:


> I don't think you really know much about what you're talking about.
> 
> 1. Science and logic do exist in religion. While most people (including you) have little to no knowledge of it, it's quite prevalent. (edit: and to back up my statement, the fact that you assumed logic doesn't exist in religion is quite illogical of you. If you really believed such a thing you would have researched it first)
> 
> ...



I was baptised as a christian, though that's a reoccurring trend in the UK. Literally, most families that get their children baptised doesn't even practice religion, they see it more of an opportunity to have a gathering and flaunt their child in people's faces


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## Brackets (Jun 8, 2015)

Trundle said:


> Only catholic and strongly liturgical churches baptize babies. Catholic churches are actually quite endowed in old and strange habits that the modern church doesn't agree with.



really? most of my christian friends were baptised as babies


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## Jarrad (Jun 8, 2015)

I watched this ages ago and I agree with everything against religion in the discussion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XpEjVlPFrs

Some really valid points were raised regarding religion practises gathering people together to form a stronger community. 
(To those that are interested in watching it, it's not a "It exists vs it doesn't exists" debate, it's more like a debate about the impacts religious beliefs have on modern day societies)


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## groovymayor (Jun 8, 2015)

I was raised a Jehovah's Witness, although I'm not sure what I am anymore. I still share _some_ views, but I'm not as extreme as some of my family members. I have four siblings, and I think most of them aren't Jehovah's Witnesses anymore. My parents are pretty upset about that. If you have any questions I can try to answer lol.


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## KainAronoele (Jun 8, 2015)

Tao said:


> Does this mean that if you were baptized as a baby, it doesn't count and your parents are sinners?
> 
> I mean, it's pretty much forcing you. How do they know you're comfortable or ready to do it if you're a baby?



I'm honestly not sure. I do know that some certain types of Christianity though they allow you to be baptized more than once. Which I find kind of dumb cuz it's like "uh oh I sinned, lemme go wash it all away. Oops, did it again, time to wash it away once more, etc." which totally ruins the meaning of it..

I thought I was baptized as a baby, so when my mom asked me when I was gonna get baptized I told her I thought I already was so how could I again? She told me it was just some ceremony where they sprinkled Holy water on me, it wasn't a baptism. So I'm still free to do it when I'm ready.
Lately they have been giving me the glare or ask when it'll be my turn when someone gets baptized at our church though. It kind of bugs me, like I will when I'm ready please don't nag me about it..

- - - Post Merge - - -



MissiNy said:


> I'm sorry that was so tough on you. But you did deal with it the right way for YOU. It is a shame that you had to worry for your brother, but so it is with MANY young adults.. Not just over being Homosexual, or bisexual, but smaller things too.. I agree that if it wasnt so shoved at people, and they were to discover any religion on their own that more people would embrace the idea.. Unfortunately this is not the world we live in... The very first chance my friend got to break free she did, and being repressed for so many years, she went nuts and almost got herself killed.. Beliefs should be made out of love not fear. stated.. I have no issue with what anyone wants to believe... It is your choice. Just like i have a choice, everyone should have a choice.. Its taking away someones choice that breeds resentment.


Yeah, a lot of things in my family are really hard for me to handle..
Everyone should have a choice, I get you want your children to follow your religion (most the time they do) but don't force it on them, there's a way to teach them about it respectfully and right! Shoving it in their faces and lecturing them about things they don't understand or was never fully explained to about the situation is what makes them run away. And I think that's one of the reasons so many ppl resent Christianity these days, and it just keeps getting worse.
Also, the world as a whole really makes it hard to not do all these wrong things. The temptation and wrong-doings in this world just get greater and greater and it slowly becomes the "norm" for ppl though 50, 100 years ago we'd be killed for these stupid things.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Angelmarina said:


> Currently I am an agnostic atheist. One thing I hate is when people judge you for your beliefs, I have ran into that a lot in my life. My birth mother is Catholic and my adopted mother is Christian. I struggled a lot with religion when I was younger because my adopted mother forced her religion on me when it was clearly something that I didn't want, and in turn I ended up growing bitter towards it. Eventually I gave up all together, I 'tried' other religions but they just weren't for me, believing in god just never logically clicked in my brain. I guess the reason why I'm agnostic is because I am very spiritual and I believe that if any gods were to exist it would be the ones in greek mythology. Now, I'm not saying I go out and make people feel bad about their religion because I don't. I have many religious friends, but I just get so annoyed when people try to force their religion on me. Like I guess its okay to talk about but respect what I choose to believe. I feel like atheists sort of, in a manner of speaking, get spit on for their beliefs or lack of because they are not widely accepted. Especially in the US from what I experienced. ^^
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, I understand that that's part of it, but when he kept judging me about everything I'd do I asked him isn't it against the Bible to judge others, and that's when he stated that as my parent it's his job to judge me and my decisions. That's why it didn't make sense to me and why I asked. Like, I've never seen anywhere in what I've read in the Bible that says no one has the right to judge others, except for parents they can judge their children. Or stuff of the sort.

However, it's very hard for me to talk to my dad. He's a very grumpy person, and it simplest discussions, 90% of the time, turn into arguments or lectures with him. He's also pretty intimidating and has done/said some things in my lifetime that has hindered him from being able to really talk to him without being very nervous and hesitant. On top of that I'm naturally really shy, paranoid and worry/stress about all kinds of things, so even to begin with it's hard for me to talk to ppl, even family and friends sometimes.


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## kayleee (Jun 8, 2015)

Trundle said:


> I don't think you really know much about what you're talking about.
> 
> 1. Science and logic do exist in religion. While most people (including you) have little to no knowledge of it, it's quite prevalent. (edit: and to back up my statement, the fact that you assumed logic doesn't exist in religion is quite illogical of you. If you really believed such a thing you would have researched it first)
> 
> ...



Yeah because it's so logical to believe that there's a big dude in the sky that created and controls everything 
And you said absolutely nothing to "back up your statement" lmao 

2. Your point being .. ?


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## Bowie (Jun 8, 2015)

kayleee said:


> Yeah because it's so logical to believe that there's a big dude in the sky that created and controls everything
> And you said absolutely nothing to "back up your statement" lmao
> 
> 2. Your point being .. ?









I know what's coming.


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## ams (Jun 8, 2015)

Something that I always feel is missing from religious debates is a little dose of humility, which ironically is something that is taught in all religions that I've learned about. I think whether it's from a belief in an all-knowing God, or just an understanding from science of how small you are in the big scope of things (or both!), it's important to remember that none of us have all the answers. 

So it kind of bothers me when these conversations go the way of "your traditions are stupid" or "obviously my beliefs make the most sense". I mean, yeah my beliefs make the most sense to me too, does that really prove anything? That being said I've loved reading about everyone's personal experiences with religion!

Message to the OP: With regards to your situation, I can't really comment on the religious aspect, but I think a lot of parents respond in extreme ways when their children are getting ready to move on. I also had one really controlling parent growing up, and I can say that you might be pleasantly surprised in a few years after you've gone out on your own. My relationship with my family has improved drastically with a little more space between us. 

I also had the experience of being very nervous around that one parent (sounds like we have similar personalities), but when you're no longer in a situation where they are able to have that control on a daily basis, some of that anxiety will dissipate.

Also, off topic, but your art is super cool!


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## KainAronoele (Jun 8, 2015)

kayleee said:


> Yeah because it's so logical to believe that there's a big dude in the sky that created and controls everything
> And you said absolutely nothing to "back up your statement" lmao
> 
> 2. Your point being .. ?



Without turning this into a violent debate and getting this closed lol.
How is that illogical, yet literally nothing exploding into everything makes total sense?


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## Pharaoh (Jun 8, 2015)

Bowie said:


> I know what's coming.



I don't think anyone ever doubted that. Why don't we just have a sticky where these kinds of threads aren't allowed, because it doesn't really matter for how long they stay civil, it always goes to **** no matter what happens because there's one or two people that lack the ability to debate in either an educated or reasonable way. There's never going to be a peaceful discussion all the way around, so I don't see the point in even attempting it. Though I applaud how long it's lasted now. I'm pretty surprised actually. Nice reply also, ams, I agree with your first paragraph, that's some good stuff there.


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## KainAronoele (Jun 8, 2015)

Also, I'll be adding a more specific rule:
NO BASHING OTHER RELIGIONS
Because that is kinda being done atm. Can have opinions, and as stated will be serious, but courteous.
Please read and follow the rules or don't post.

- - - Post Merge - - -



ams said:


> Something that I always feel is missing from religious debates is a little dose of humility, which ironically is something that is taught in all religions that I've learned about. I think whether it's from a belief in an all-knowing God, or just an understanding from science of how small you are in the big scope of things (or both!), it's important to remember that none of us have all the answers.
> 
> So it kind of bothers me when these conversations go the way of "your traditions are stupid" or "obviously my beliefs make the most sense". I mean, yeah my beliefs make the most sense to me too, does that really prove anything? That being said I've loved reading about everyone's personal experiences with religion!
> 
> ...


I agree very much ^^
If put in the situation I do bring up my faults and things I've done wrong, I don't act perfect and like I know everything, of course everyone tries to seem like they know a LITTLE more, at least, than they really do, but it's also important to really be honest and let them know what you DO know, and also be open-minded by how they see things too. Like you said, however you are raised, whatever you grow to know is what makes most sense to you, if you want to be able to understand the other person's view on things, you need to look it up, hear personal experiences and get a feel for it to truly understand, then is when you can honestly know what really makes most sense to you.
If that even made any sense... At least it did to me xD

It's always good to know that I'm not the only one that has these kind of problems, I mean obviously I know I'm not, but to hear another actually say it reassures you. ON the other hand though it really sucks to be that way, imo.
I am hoping that when I'm out and have space that it will be a lot better, I feel like sometimes they're always so up in what I have going on, or act like they know what I'm going through, or whatever, which is sorta off subject. But yeah.. 
I feel like it's especially hard since I have all kinds of crappy qualities and feelings to go along with it all. It like intensifies it by 1000000!!

Thank you so much! :D


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## Midoriya (Jun 8, 2015)

ChooChooMuffin said:


> Spoiler: my long, winding story of how I became Christian
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Stands up and claps* Your post is really well-thought out and detailed.  Especially what you said in the spoiler.  Good job sir on making a truthful and logical post.


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## kayleee (Jun 9, 2015)

Bowie said:


> I know what's coming.



Oh look who it is. Remember when you got shut down in the harrassment thread? How could you forget lol that was embarrassing 

No but for real, everyone calm the **** down. It's a legit question. I'm not over here **** talking anyone for being a theist, I'm just saying I don't get how people believe it. "Nothing exploding into everything" doesn't make 100% sense either because I'm not a god damn astronomer, but personally I can get behind that more than this supposedly omnipotent-omnibenevolant dude out there doing whatever big dudes in the sky do (clearly not giving a **** about the human race tho)


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## doveling (Jun 9, 2015)

i consider myself atheist, but im still not sure yet..
questioning my religion ahah!

though my parents are catholic


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## himeki (Jun 9, 2015)

To be perfectly honest, I would mostly class myself as an atheist, however, I still think that there could be some kind of deity, can we completely tell? I don't really mind if people follow a religion, it's their choice what they believe.
However, what I would say, is what upsets me with most religions is that most religious parents will baptise their children into the religion at a young age, so they do not have a choice as to what religion they follow, which is quite sad, as their beliefs are passed onto the children their children before they can decide for themselfs. It's nice when they do not allow baptisim until you are 18 
Simillar to this, I dislike it how most of the schools in the UK are Church schools, especially primary. Seriously, my school was messed up and forced a girl who was of a different religion to say Christian prayers .-.


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## Midoriya (Jun 9, 2015)

I myself consider myself Christian and was baptized when I was 16 of my own free will, cause I wanted to be baptized.  I personally think it's rude though when other Christians try to force their views down your throat.  Those people aren't "True Christians"


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## Brackets (Jun 9, 2015)

MayorEvvie said:


> Simillar to this, I dislike it how most of the schools in the UK are Church schools, especially primary. Seriously, my school was messed up and forced a girl who was of a different religion to say Christian prayers .-.



I'm not sure that most of them are, but yeah there are definitely too many. I saw a program on faith schools and even the science textbooks mentioned God all the time. And yeah my primary school wasnt even a faith school or anything like that, but they'd say Christian prayers and somehow managed to make me feel guilty for not being a christian and not being baptised when I was very young. (theyd always do this thing where they'd say 'all of you who are baptised stand up!!' and then clap them and stuff. )

And in secondary school I was picked on by the christian religious studies teacher for being an atheist, even though there were muslims in the class nooo you can't pick on them because that would be insulting, but it's fine to humiliate the atheist! I remember saying I didn't believe Jesus came back from the dead and she had a complete hissy fit and screamed at me to 'google it'. Yep.


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## Trundle (Jun 9, 2015)

kayleee said:


> Yeah because it's so logical to believe that there's a big dude in the sky that created and controls everything
> And you said absolutely nothing to "back up your statement" lmao
> 
> 2. Your point being .. ?



I'm going to write you a big post but I doubt you'll read it, but here we go.

To understand the concept of God you have to first understand the concept of the universe. 

- Both are potentially ageless (http://phys.org/news/2015-02-big-quantum-equation-universe.html)

I'm actually going to stop at this single fact. The quantum equation is being explored right now to there being a universe that always was. This literally goes against everything we know about time. Before this, everything we knew had a beginning and an end. Except for God. Point being, this comes to justify the existence of something that seems so crazy as to have always been possible.

Furthermore, your point about logic behind a big dude in the sky is only valid if you're looking at the universe from a perspective that you know everything that always is and was. We use science in the world to justify and rationalize what does happen. Ultimately, no one knows that there actually is a force pulling down on the Earth that keeps us all there, because it's never been observed. We can see the effects of gravity, but not gravity itself. We can also see the effects of God, although we can't see God.

Did you know that the accuracy of first party sources are based on how long ago it was vs. how many different recorded copies there are of what happened? Well, that being said, the Bible is the most historically accurate book in the world. While we don't have Jesus walking around on the Earth, we still see signs and miracles. (I can provide examples but I don't want to get off topic)

Back to the science part; science does not disprove God in the way that YOU view it. In the way that smart people view it, it actually adds evidence. (PS: the way the world was created in the Bible is clearly metaphorical. It's not going to go through the defined scientific processes of the creation of the world because no one would understand it) Some people would say that if God created the world and everything in it (including science), then exploring science will help you find God. Have you looked up the stats for the first cells to form? The chances it would ever happen are so slim. Not to mention that the life reproduces before it dies and the life actually makes it anywhere. How would cells stop reproducing asexually and start reproducing sexually? It doesn't make any sense in an evolutionary development because it is not needed in any specific environment. Based on random chance (which is hard to explain whether or not the argument is solid), the chance of a 300-molecule-long-protein to form is 1 in 10^390. 

I've jumped around a lot but please ask questions so I can get more of a feel of where you're coming from.


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## Gusmanak (Jun 9, 2015)

I classify as an atheist, and I always will.

Theres just so many issues regarding religion right now, and there always has been.

I will agree with Bowie in saying that I only respect Buddhism, for the reasons he mentioned.

But I don't oppose religious people, as long as they don't disrespect my sexuality or anyone elses for that matter.


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## Bowie (Jun 9, 2015)

kayleee said:


> Oh look who it is. Remember when you got shut down in the harrassment thread? How could you forget lol that was embarrassing



Oh, yes, I remember you now. You're the one who considers everyone (specifically men) with a different opinion to yours sexist, am I right? Bingo!

Anyway, I think it's wrong to bash other people's beliefs, but you don't have to necessarily respect them. I tolerate religion, but I don't respect it. If I respected it, I'd be implying that I thought it was respectable, which is the complete opposite of what I think about it. I can respect the concept of having faith in something, but religion itself is something I just can't respect. Buddhism is as close as I get to respecting it, and I don't think that's even a religion.


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## Pharaoh (Jun 9, 2015)

Most religions just aren't that interesting, honestly, Buddhism included. I just don't feel that any one religion has a complete encompassing theory of how I feel about the Universe and existence. They're always lacking or missing something. There's just rules, lots of rules, usually dictated by people who are flawed like the rest of us. I have to say my least favorite major religious sect is probably Catholicism, have you guys ever seen the Catholic channel on television? Everyone always looks depressed, all the nuns and the priests look absolutely miserable, and their entire cathedral is full of gold. What's the deal with that? Seems opposing to what religion is supposed to bring, which is humility and joy. 

 The only religion I was ever actually fascinated by was ancient Egyptian. The stories for their gods were very clever, and their process of handling death was very interesting.


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## Stalfos (Jun 9, 2015)

It should not be allowed to baptize babies. That's it.


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## kayleee (Jun 9, 2015)

Trundle said:


> I'm going to write you a big post but I doubt you'll read it, but here we go.
> 
> To understand the concept of God you have to first understand the concept of the universe.
> 
> ...



Very informative, thank you. It doesn't necessarily change my view but I appreciate the time you devoted to explaining your view. However I would disagree that the bible is the most historically accurate account of the world because, like you also said, it's purely metaphorical. Further than the creation of the world I would say that obviously the story of Noah's ark did not actually occur, and there was no real parting of a Red Sea, unless you are the breed of theist that believes everything in the bible is true, which in that case you contradicted yourself in your post. So really there's no logicality behind believing that something occurred that is not possible (i.e biblical miracles) but in this case we can agree to disagree. And in your reference to gravity being felt but not seen, as how God is, I cannot feel or see the presence or effects of God so that's purely subjective. You cannot stop feeling the power of gravity no matter what you believe.


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## Yukari Yakumo (Jun 9, 2015)

I finish my philosophy degree in just a few months, so I've had a lot of classes where this metaphor was used a lot.

God(or whatever divinity in question) is like a square circle.  It doesn't matter what you say or think, you're probably wrong because your puny human brain can't wrap your head around it.  Even if it exists, you are rooted in your own experiences and can't conceive of something outside them.  The human brain is finite.  Therefore, it is impossible to comprehend the infinite on any level.

Another example in a story I remember:  
Once there was a king in India(or some kind of royal person in some Asian country).  One day he told one of his servant to find several men from foreign lands who had been blind all their lives.  After the servant brought the blind men, the king brought them to one of his elephants(which none of them had ever heard of).  He told them that there was a creature called an elephant there and he wanted them to describe it for him.  One man grabbed the trunk, another grabbed a leg, one grabbed the tail, etc.  One man said "An elephant is *blah blah blah*."  The next blind man said, "No!  An elephant is *blah blah blah*."  The third said, "No, you're both wrong!  An elephant is *blah blah blah*."  And so on.  The king heard all this, looked at the servant, smiled mischievously, and said "None of them are wrong, until they think that only they are right."


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## Le Ham (Jun 9, 2015)

kayleee said:


> Very informative, thank you. It doesn't necessarily change my view but I appreciate the time you devoted to explaining your view. However I would disagree that the bible is the most historically accurate account of the world because, like you also said, it's purely metaphorical. Further than the creation of the world I would say that obviously the story of Noah's ark did not actually occur, and there was no real parting of a Red Sea, unless you are the breed of theist that believes everything in the bible is true, which in that case you contradicted yourself in your post. So really there's no logicality behind believing that something occurred that is not possible (i.e biblical miracles) but in this case we can agree to disagree. And in your reference to gravity being felt but not seen, as how God is, I cannot feel or see the presence or effects of God so that's purely subjective. You cannot stop feeling the power of gravity no matter what you believe.



So metaphorical means historically inaccurate? Okay, then. Also I'm pretty sure he only said the Genesis/creation-of-world account was metaphorical. Some of the OT stories are much more realistic than that.

Regarding miracles, they're only impossible if we're only looking at the laws of the physical world, as currently known and observed by humans, and nothing more. If God is real, and if God created our world and our universe, He would be able to break these laws at will, thus miracles. And if He didn't have that kind of power, we wouldn't have much reason to call him God.


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## Angelmarina (Jun 9, 2015)

KainAronoele said:


> ~snip a few things~
> 
> Yeah, I understand that that's part of it, but when he kept judging me about everything I'd do I asked him isn't it against the Bible to judge others, and that's when he stated that as my parent it's his job to judge me and my decisions. That's why it didn't make sense to me and why I asked. Like, I've never seen anywhere in what I've read in the Bible that says no one has the right to judge others, except for parents they can judge their children. Or stuff of the sort.
> 
> However, it's very hard for me to talk to my dad. He's a very grumpy person, and it simplest discussions, 90% of the time, turn into arguments or lectures with him. He's also pretty intimidating and has done/said some things in my lifetime that has hindered him from being able to really talk to him without being very nervous and hesitant. On top of that I'm naturally really shy, paranoid and worry/stress about all kinds of things, so even to begin with it's hard for me to talk to ppl, even family and friends sometimes.





Spoiler: Because it's long



Honestly, if he said that then I don't think it has anything to do with your religion. It'a an excuse he's using so that he can say and do what he wants as your parent.

I completely understand because I am exactly the same way. My adopted mom is also a very intimidating person and since I am so shy and stuff I can't handle confrontation well and every time I would talk to her she would turn it around on me, make me feel like the bad guy in the situation, and then she would cause me to cry and not even care. As I got older though (I'm 20 now), I realized that no matter how shy I am I have to stand up for myself because if I don't than she was going to continue to basically push me around and I was just going to listen to her. Sooner or later your dad is going to possibly push you to the same point and you are going to confront him about it. And no matter how upset he gets he is still your father and he will eventually understand.


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## Brackets (Jun 9, 2015)

Stalfos said:


> It should not be allowed to baptize babies. That's it.



I don't really see how baptism is that bad, unless I'm missing something here. Circumcision, on the other hand...


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## kayleee (Jun 9, 2015)

C





ChooChooMuffin said:


> So metaphorical means historically inaccurate? Okay, then. Also I'm pretty sure he only said the Genesis/creation-of-world account was metaphorical. Some of the OT stories are much more realistic than that.
> 
> Regarding miracles, they're only impossible if we're only looking at the laws of the physical world, as currently known and observed by humans, and nothing more. If God is real, and if God created our world and our universe, He would be able to break these laws at will, thus miracles. And if He didn't have that kind of power, we wouldn't have much reason to call him God.



"One thing conceived as representing another; a symbol" ... Um.. Yeah. Metaphorical isn't exactly a synonym for historical. They mean two completely different things and there's not a correlation between a sequence of events and the metaphorical. Maybe gain some basic knowledge of word definitions

And why is it okay to pick and choose what is apparently "metaphorical" and what is historically true in the bible? Who has that authority? You really think God spoke to a man named Noah and said "build a big ****ing boat and find two of every animal cause I'm gonna flood the world and kill everyone." Lol ok
PS something "seeming realistic" doesn't automatically make it true so I'm not really sure where you're trying to go with that 

And if God is omnipotent then why does anything terrible happen in the world? If he exists and he allows terrible things to happen I don't think we have much reason to call him God anyway


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## DarkDesertFox (Jun 9, 2015)

kayleee said:


> And if God is omnipotent then why does anything terrible happen in the world? If he exists and he allows terrible things to happen I don't think we have much reason to call him God anyway



This responses makes me cringe.


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## kayleee (Jun 9, 2015)

DarkDesertFox said:


> This responses makes me cringe.



How very unhelpful please explain


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## Yukari Yakumo (Jun 9, 2015)

kayleee said:


> And if God is omnipotent then why does anything terrible happen in the world? If he exists and he allows terrible things to happen I don't think we have much reason to call him God anyway





DarkDesertFox said:


> This responses makes me cringe.


It is not an uncommon opinion.


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## DarkDesertFox (Jun 9, 2015)

kayleee said:


> How very unhelpful please explain



You honestly can't blame God for everything bad that happens in the world. Especially with people. He gave people free will and if he interfered every time someone tried to do something evil that wouldn't be the free will at all. He'd be controlling people's actions. As for natural disasters, yes God could prevent them, but he has a reason for not doing so. God is good.


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## Tao (Jun 9, 2015)

MayorEvvie said:


> Simillar to this, I dislike it how most of the schools in the UK are Church schools, especially primary. Seriously, my school was messed up and forced a girl who was of a different religion to say Christian prayers .-.



The school I went to forced a Muslim girl to go to church and take off her 'burka' because headwear wasn't allowed in the 'house of God'. I'm not sure if that's against that religion but I'm gonna take a guess and say yes, yes it is.


They also banned me from the church and gave me the whole "you're going to hell etc." speech because I didn't understand why Spiderman is fictional but Jesus isn't or why we had to devote our time to Jesus but not to Spiderman.
I mean, that's not even me trying to annoy people, that was just my 7 year old logic failing to understand why one thing isn't the same as the other.


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## kayleee (Jun 9, 2015)

DarkDesertFox said:


> You honestly can't blame God for everything bad that happens in the world. Especially with people. He gave people free will and if he interfered every time someone tried to do something evil that wouldn't be the free will at all. He'd be controlling people's actions. As for natural disasters, yes God could prevent them, but he has a reason for not doing so. God is good.



Okay but what reason could possibly be good enough to not save a bunch of innocent lives? Obviously you won't have the answer to this I'm just musing because saying "God has his reasons" is such an overused step-around by theists for things they cannot explain and logically make no sense at all coming from an apparently omnibenevalant God


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## Tao (Jun 9, 2015)

kayleee said:


> Okay but what reason could possibly be good enough to not save a bunch of innocent lives?




He has a quota for 'people killed' every month. If he hits that target, he automatically gets entered into a prize draw to win a blender and a free trip to Barbados.


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## DarkDesertFox (Jun 9, 2015)

kayleee said:


> Okay but what reason could possibly be good enough to not save a bunch of innocent lives? Obviously you won't have the answer to this I'm just musing because saying "God has his reasons" is such an overused step-around by theists for things they cannot explain and logically make no sense at all coming from an apparently omnibenevalant God



You're absolutely right. I do not know the answer. Only God knows. His logic is greater than ours and it is very difficult to understand his reasons sometimes. People are afraid of what they cannot understand and thus have trouble accepting God's actions without being to explain them with our logic. I'm not trying to convince you. I just wanted to put my two cents in.


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## kayleee (Jun 9, 2015)

Tao said:


> He has a quota for 'people killed' every month. If he hits that target, he automatically gets entered into a prize draw to win a blender and a free trip to Barbados.



count me in

- - - Post Merge - - -



DarkDesertFox said:


> You're absolutely right. I do not know the answer. Only God knows. His logic is greater than ours and it is very difficult to understand his reasons sometimes. People are afraid of what they cannot understand and thus have trouble accepting God's actions without being to explain them with our logic. I'm not trying to convince you. I just wanted to put my two cents in.



okay fair enough thank you for the respectful convo


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## Pharaoh (Jun 9, 2015)

kayleee said:


> And if God is omnipotent then why does anything terrible happen in the world? If he exists and he allows terrible things to happen I don't think we have much reason to call him God anyway



I think the idea is that God isn't supposed to interfere in the affairs of mankind, that sort of defeats the concept of free will. The point isn't to make the creation do what you want, but have them choose goodness on their own. Disease, destruction, war, we bring that on ourselves. A God isn't supposed to clean up everyone's mess. No other God I've heard of in any religion is supposed to do that, so why is a Christian one any different? 

The problem people seem to have with the creator entity is imposing human understanding and emotion onto it when it wouldn't operate by that standard.


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## kayleee (Jun 9, 2015)

Pharaoh said:


> I think the idea is that God isn't supposed to interfere in the affairs of mankind, that sort of defeats the concept of free will. The point isn't to make the creation do what you want, but have them choose goodness on their own. Disease, destruction, war, we bring that on ourselves. A God isn't supposed to clean up everyone's mess. No other God I've heard of in any religion is supposed to do that, so why is a Christian one any different?
> 
> The problem people seem to have with the creator entity is imposing human understanding and emotion onto it when it wouldn't operate by that standard.



But if a god is ALL GOOD like theists claim, then isn't it contradictory that he would act in a way that is not ALL GOOD (i.e _allowing_ horrible things to happen? a child abused by it's parents "brought that on itself?" I just don't understand how a deity that does not act as a deity should by definition of what theists consider a God deserves to be called a god. What is the point of worshipping this god if he does literally nothing for humankind?

Not to mention the countless times I've heard "God blessed me with this/god saved my life, etc.," yet as you say, God does not interfere with daily life. so which is it


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## Pharaoh (Jun 9, 2015)

kayleee said:


> But if a god is ALL GOOD like theists claim, then isn't it contradictory that he would act in a way that is not ALL GOOD (i.e _allowing_ horrible things to happen? a child abused by it's parents "brought that on itself?" I just don't understand how a deity that does not act as a deity should by definition of what theists consider a God deserves to be called a god. What is the point of worshipping this god if he does literally nothing for humankind?
> 
> Not to mention the countless times I've heard "God blessed me with this/god saved my life, etc.," yet as you say, God does not interfere with daily life. so which is it



You'd have to ask a Christian that. I don't believe in a diety having a direct precense in our lives. It just wouldn't make sense as you say. Blessing those and not blessing others is an impartial interference. I don't believe any direct involvement would occur between a creator and creation until death, if at all ever.


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## kayleee (Jun 9, 2015)

Pharaoh said:


> You'd have to ask a Christian that. I don't believe in a diety having a direct precense in our lives. It just wouldn't make sense as you say. Blessing those and not blessing others is an impartial interference. I don't believe any direct involvement would occur between a creator and creation until death, if at all ever.



fair enough. but then what is the point of believing in a creator at all if there is no benefit to it


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## Stalfos (Jun 9, 2015)

Brackets said:


> I don't really see how baptism is that bad, unless I'm missing something here. Circumcision, on the other hand...



I was baptized as a baby and it burnt, oh how it burnt. Just kidding. I was baptized however and to this day I still feel really uncomfortable about it. I didn't approve of it because, yeah you guessed it, I was a baby. Sure, it wasn't a life altering experiance but still. Let people decide for themselves if and when they want to become baptized.

Whoa! Don't even mention the C-word!


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## Le Ham (Jun 9, 2015)

kayleee said:


> "One thing conceived as representing another; a symbol" ... Um.. Yeah. Metaphorical isn't exactly a synonym for historical. They mean two completely different things and there's not a correlation between a sequence of events and the metaphorical. Maybe gain some basic knowledge of word definitions
> 
> And why is it okay to pick and choose what is apparently "metaphorical" and what is historically true in the bible? Who has that authority? You really think God spoke to a man named Noah and said "build a big ****ing boat and find two of every animal cause I'm gonna flood the world and kill everyone." Lol ok
> PS something "seeming realistic" doesn't automatically make it true so I'm not really sure where you're trying to go with that
> ...



No, we can't get exact information in perfect detail from figurative language. Maybe there's a reason, like as Trundle mentioned, how every little detail of the beginning could make the Bible longer than it needs to be, as it usually only contains important things and lessons for morality and ways of living, as well as a record of some of what the ancient world was like.

When I said it was more realistic, I meant it's not huge-scale miracle-based stuff we can't scientifically understand in any compacity. As literate people, we can notice things like that and make comparisons. Many of the stories of kings and families and such in the OT were based around normal people who did normal things. There are accounts of different kingdoms and nations. There are a couple stories involving angels protecting people and prophets speaking for God, but it's not anything thought of to be as intense as man being formed from dust, and flooding the whole world, which you make an attempt to mock me with.


Spoiler: This is something I typed from an earlier thread. It's long and talks from a Christian standpoint, so if you're going to nitpick every little word and idea while missing the main point, this is going to be a long, pointless pile of nothing to you.



People say that God cannot exist because there is evil and suffering in the world, claiming that if God truly loved us, He wouldn't have made Hell, sin, etc. When really, He didn't directly create sin and Hell-- we did. 
Because of man's failure to obey God, we then had to deal with a stain on our race, a separation, because we rebelled against God. This is sin. Some will ask "But why did he put all those curses on us in addition?" He punished us, because any loving father disciplines their kids and shows them what's what, so that they can learn from their bad choices, know how to please Him, and try to do better to please Him.
Our ability to sin in the first place comes from God's gift to humans of free will. Because of Him we have a moral right and wrong and a use for our consciences. We can then, based on the information given to us about Him in our lives, freely choose to obey Him or not care about Him; to accept or reject Him. If we accept God, He says (Biblically) that we must obey him if we truly love Him; we must strive to please Him by our actions. 
If we reject Him? Well, to put it the way my religion teacher put it, God isn't going to force you to live in His presence eternally (Heaven). He's going to respect your decision and let you be separate from Him if it's how much you couldn't stand Him. (Like how people say that if you truly love your spouse you would be willing to let them leave you if they so desired.) 
Problem is, Hell is in and of itself that separation. God, being the Divine Creator, is of all good things: love, beauty, happiness, etc. Without God, there is no love, beauty happiness, etc. and that's pretty much what Hell is. Hell was created by a lack of God, not by God Himself.
Now if you lived your life never knowing of God's existence and never hearing the Word? I believe God would have mercy; otherwise we'd have millions of premature and aborted babies in Hell when they were never even able to sin. You can't deliberately go against God when you have no idea what God is, lol. 
So now the question is this: why does God allow us free will when we can't know everything about Him or logically look at the consequences and make an educated choice based on that knowledge? Faith.
The way God approaches us is that He reveals to us the things we need to know in order to be saved, but within His revelations there's always room for doubt. He never makes Himself plainly-known or understood, He never shows His existence to be a common fact. The idea of trying to find evidence for God's existence using scientific methods? Hilarious. 
Science only focuses on what humans know and theorize about the natural world, while God is in the supernatural and doesn't need to conform to nature; thus miracles, defined as occurrences that cannot be explained by the laws of nature, are possible ("anything is possible with God"). Let me also throw out there that we would probably have no concept of miracles if it weren't for God, just as the exact properties of morality, perfection, and their opposites are found nowhere else.
Now, let's look at a different side. *1+1=2.* You do not _believe_ that 1+1=2; you do not _have_ to. It is a _mathematical, proven fact._ You _know_ that 1+1=2. God, however, is *not* a mathematical, proven fact, because He doesn't need to be. If He were a proven fact by the laws of nature/science/the world, you would not have to _believe_ in Him, and tbh He wouldn't be supernatural at all and therefore there wouldn't be miracles. This is why He provides the gift of faith: the ability to believe in Him, regardless of what science says or what the "evidence" says. That may be a lot for Him to expect of us, but He's gotta have some standards to go on regarding who gets into Heaven and who doesn't (no one ever "deserves" Heaven; our salvation is a gift, too)... and if we can totally deny the world and keep our faith, even in the face of our opposers, that means a strong love for God, a strong desire to serve Him, and a strong desire to follow His commandments. 
True faith, just like God Himself, does not require the conformity of the natural world. It goes beyond what the world can provide, and it doesn't need to agree with the laws of this world. This is why God gives us that gift, and He only gives it to those that look for Him where He ought to be found.


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## Tao (Jun 9, 2015)

Pharaoh said:


> I think the idea is that God isn't supposed to interfere in the affairs of mankind, that sort of defeats the concept of free will. The point isn't to make the creation do what you want, but have them choose goodness on their own. Disease, destruction, war, we bring that on ourselves.



Not everybody brings it on themselves. Rape victims with AID's, environmental activists being left homeless after natural disasters, people being killed in a war they don't agree with because their country has forced military service. 


I guess you could say these people are being tested buuuuuut:




kayleee said:


> Not to mention the countless times I've heard "God blessed me with this/god saved my life, etc.," yet as you say, God does not interfere with daily life. so which is it




So why is God so picky when it comes to saving people?


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## Trundle (Jun 9, 2015)

kayleee said:


> But if a god is ALL GOOD like theists claim, then isn't it contradictory that he would act in a way that is not ALL GOOD (i.e _allowing_ horrible things to happen? a child abused by it's parents "brought that on itself?" I just don't understand how a deity that does not act as a deity should by definition of what theists consider a God deserves to be called a god. What is the point of worshipping this god if he does literally nothing for humankind?
> 
> Not to mention the countless times I've heard "God blessed me with this/god saved my life, etc.," yet as you say, God does not interfere with daily life. so which is it



He created us with free will. He's not going to manipulate everything that goes on in our world. Miracles and such happen purely through faith and obviously saying "God blessed me with x" and "God saved my life" isn't always the case but it can happen. The Bible says anything is possible through faith, and I've witnessed some crazy things.


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## Pharaoh (Jun 9, 2015)

kayleee said:


> fair enough. but then what is the point of believing in a creator at all if there is no benefit to it



Not everything is beneficial or rewarding, everything ultimately came into being and it can simply be that. Doesn't have to be a drawn out deep and meaningful reason or being. An entity of creation can be scientific and conscious without being anything more than that.  The fact that people assign a code of morals to it is what's considered universally beneficial for the preservation of mankind, but unfortunately with that comes a lot of self-agenda and corruption. Religion.


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## Alolan_Apples (Jun 9, 2015)

Yep, I knew this thread would actually get heated up.


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## Trundle (Jun 9, 2015)

kayleee said:


> C
> 
> "One thing conceived as representing another; a symbol" ... Um.. Yeah. Metaphorical isn't exactly a synonym for historical. They mean two completely different things and there's not a correlation between a sequence of events and the metaphorical. Maybe gain some basic knowledge of word definitions
> 
> ...



I'm not sure where I see the point in a God who makes everyone 100% happy and safe all the time no matter what. You couldn't even consider that living.


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## Le Ham (Jun 9, 2015)

DarkDesertFox said:


> You're absolutely right. I do not know the answer. Only God knows. His logic is greater than ours and it is very difficult to understand his reasons sometimes. People are afraid of what they cannot understand and thus have trouble accepting God's actions without being to explain them with our logic. I'm not trying to convince you. I just wanted to put my two cents in.



This. We're asking for all the answers now, some NEED all the answers now, and it hinders people. Even I'm doing it now. It's common how people don't know what God knows, so they try to fill it in. I try not to go that far, but hey, I'm not perfect. My brain and my "logic" isn't perfect. No one's is. But that's the beauty of faith, at least to me, that I can turn to God and trust in Him despite not having the signs and not knowing everything. I admit His will, ways, and knowledge are way beyond my reach and beyond anyone's, I admit His justice and righteousness is the best and the only true righteousness. What I can do is follow along with what I'm given, and try to make the connections, knowing they may be flawed, but that I'm trying.


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## kayleee (Jun 9, 2015)

Trundle said:


> I'm not sure where I see the point in a God who makes everyone 100% happy and safe all the time no matter what. You couldn't even consider that living.



I'm not sure I see the point in a God at all with that statement lmao

- - - Post Merge - - -



ChooChooMuffin said:


> This. We're asking for all the answers now, some NEED all the answers now, and it hinders people. Even I'm doing it now. It's common how people don't know what God knows, so they try to fill it in. I try not to go that far, but hey, I'm not perfect. My brain and my "logic" isn't perfect. No one's is. But that's the beauty of faith, at least to me, that I can turn to God and trust in Him despite not having the signs and not knowing everything. I admit His will, ways, and knowledge are way beyond my reach and beyond anyone's, I admit His justice and righteousness is the best and the only true righteousness. What I can do is follow along with what I'm given, and try to make the connections, knowing they may be flawed, but that I'm trying.



so you're just a blind follower of something that won't ever reveal itself to you and you don't feel the need to question it?

- - - Post Merge - - -



Trundle said:


> He created us with free will. He's not going to manipulate everything that goes on in our world. Miracles and such happen purely through faith and obviously saying "God blessed me with x" and "God saved my life" isn't always the case but it can happen. The Bible says anything is possible through faith, and I've witnessed some crazy things.



i can't speak for your own personal experiences but this absolutely does not prove whatsoever that a god exists just because you claim to have "witnessed miracles" that were performed by god.


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## Superpenguin (Jun 9, 2015)

I always considered religion as something that people were either raised to believe in or something they turned to when they became scared/hit a rough spot in their life/had nowhere else to turn to. I don't really believe in a god and surely don't believe in following religious teachings trying to influence my morals/how I live my life.


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## kayleee (Jun 9, 2015)

ChooChooMuffin said:


> No, we can't get exact information in perfect detail from figurative language. Maybe there's a reason, like as Trundle mentioned, how every little detail of the beginning could make the Bible longer than it needs to be, as it usually only contains important things and lessons for morality and ways of living, as well as a record of some of what the ancient world was like.
> 
> When I said it was more realistic, I meant it's not huge-scale miracle-based stuff we can't scientifically understand in any compacity. As literate people, we can notice things like that and make comparisons. Many of the stories of kings and families and such in the OT were based around normal people who did normal things. There are accounts of different kingdoms and nations. There are a couple stories involving angels protecting people and prophets speaking for God, but it's not anything thought of to be as intense as man being formed from dust, and flooding the whole world, which you make an attempt to mock me with.
> 
> ...



this is well thought out and all but it means absolutely nothing to someone who doesn't believe in god in the first place so it doesn't really apply to me


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## Tao (Jun 9, 2015)

kayleee said:


> I'm not sure I see the point in a God at all with that statement lmao



You get to go to heaven afterwards.

Though I don't know whether or not it's even real, so do I want to waste my life prayin' or do I want to use that time to have a beer and swim with a dolphin?
Or do I really want to 'walk besides' a powerful entity who decided to watch innocent people suffer when it could have been easily stopped?


If I was being mauled by a Tiger and Spiderman just swung past and shouted "free will, m8", I wouldn't worship him. I would just think he's a right d*ck head.


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## Superpenguin (Jun 9, 2015)

Tao said:


> If I was being mauled by a Tiger and Spiderman just swung past and shouted "free will, m8", I wouldn't worship him. I would just think he's a right d*ck head.



Is Spiderman the most common reference in this thread?


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## Trundle (Jun 9, 2015)

kayleee said:


> I'm not sure I see the point in a God at all with that statement lmao
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



Well, if your goal in life is to just achieve happiness you could argue that's a bit of a selfish goal. 

And no, it doesn't prove God exists, nor does it disprove God either. Anyway, I don't really want to follow the thread anymore, so feel free to PM me if you want to continue. Otherwise, have fun!


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## Alolan_Apples (Jun 9, 2015)

Superpenguin said:


> I always considered religion as something that people were either raised to believe in or something they turned to when they became scared/hit a rough spot in their life/had nowhere else to turn to. I don't really believe in a god and surely don't believe in following religious teachings trying to influence my morals/how I live my life.



That reminds me. When I'm raised one way as a child, I choose not to break off from what I was raised to be. As I was raised a Christian, I wouldn't ditch my faith as a Christian no matter what happens. This trait also applied to my right wing views and supportive bias towards some sports teams. While I agree with what I was raised with, I also have my own opinions.


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## kayleee (Jun 9, 2015)

Tao said:


> You get to go to heaven afterwards.
> 
> Though I don't know whether or not it's even real, so do I want to waste my life prayin' or do I want to use that time to have a beer and swim with a dolphin?
> Or do I really want to 'walk besides' a powerful entity who decided to watch innocent people suffer when it could have been easily stopped?
> ...



if this so-called "heaven" is even a thing, which I'm not sure I'd want to even be a part of anyway since all it consists of is worshipping this "god" for eternity. he's very self centered to create a bunch of humans to sit around and worship him even beyond death like omg let me go to hell instead


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## Superpenguin (Jun 9, 2015)

Apple2012 said:


> That reminds me. When I'm raised one way as a child, I choose not to break off from what I was raised to be. As I was raised a Christian, I wouldn't ditch my faith as a Christian no matter what happens. This trait also applied to my right wing views and supportive bias towards some sports teams. While I agree with what I was raised with, I also have my own opinions.



Which is why I'm thankful the only things that were really raised into my head were sports teams (which I care nothing about) and types of cars.


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## kayleee (Jun 9, 2015)

Apple2012 said:


> That reminds me. When I'm raised one way as a child, I choose not to break off from what I was raised to be. As I was raised a Christian, I wouldn't ditch my faith as a Christian no matter what happens. This trait also applied to my right wing views and supportive bias towards some sports teams. While I agree with what I was raised with, I also have my own opinions.



but if you were raised as a buddhist would you still be a Christian today? I feel I can say with near certainty the answer is no

your opinions were taught to you as a child. you didn't really choose anything


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## Superpenguin (Jun 9, 2015)

kayleee said:


> if this so-called "heaven" is even a thing, which I'm not sure I'd want to even be a part of anyway since all it consists of is worshipping this "god" for eternity. he's very self centered to create a bunch of humans to sit around and worship him even beyond death like omg let me go to hell instead



Same. I always feared whether I would go to heaven or not cause that's what people always talked about after a recent death, but now I'm just like "lol is it even real and if it is...is it worth it?"


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## kayleee (Jun 9, 2015)

Trundle said:


> Well, if your goal in life is to just achieve happiness you could argue that's a bit of a selfish goal.
> 
> And no, it doesn't prove God exists, nor does it disprove God either. Anyway, I don't really want to follow the thread anymore, so feel free to PM me if you want to continue. Otherwise, have fun!



yeah it doesn't disprove god but just saying "I can hold my breath for 10 hours" doesn't mean I can actually do it and by theists' logic I am to be believed until I _dis_prove myself which could (would) be never

like logically people would say thats ridiculous I don't believe you until I see you do it. yet they believe in god without that logic


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## Le Ham (Jun 9, 2015)

kayleee said:


> so you're just a blind follower of something that won't ever reveal itself to you and you don't feel the need to question it?



I question the government. I question the media. I question the entertainment industry. I question what people in huge denominational cult-churches are trying to do to us and trying to make God look like. I question prosyletizing, programming, bias, and dishonest interpretations. I question the desires of "the powers that be," the higher-up elites of the world, and mankind in general. I felt the need to question all these things, and because of them I found the One whom I do not question.

What is stupid to you is not necessarily stupid to me. Make of it what you will, but flaming and insulting people for it is just pointless.


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## badcrumbs (Jun 9, 2015)

Superpenguin said:


> I always considered religion as something that people were either raised to believe in or something they turned to when they became scared/hit a rough spot in their life/had nowhere else to turn to. I don't really believe in a god and surely don't believe in following religious teachings trying to influence my morals/how I live my life.


Seconded



Tao said:


> If I was being mauled by a Tiger and Spiderman just swung past and shouted "free will, m8", I wouldn't worship him. I would just think he's a right d*ck head.


I spit out my coffee reading this. Kudos.



I went to Catholic school from 1st - 6th grade and that was enough for me. Religion just isn't important to me and not part of my life. I like reading about various religions, but I don't follow one nor believe in any kind of deity.


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## kayleee (Jun 9, 2015)

ChooChooMuffin said:


> I question the government. I question the media. I question the entertainment industry. I question what people in huge denominational cult-churches are trying to do to us and trying to make God look like. I question prosyletizing, programming, bias, and dishonest interpretations. I question the desires of "the powers that be," the higher-up elites of the world, and mankind in general. I felt the need to question all these things, and because of them I found the One whom I do not question.
> 
> What is stupid to you is not necessarily stupid to me. Make of it what you will, but flaming and insulting people for it is just pointless.



calm the hell down, I'm not flaming or insulting anyone. jesus christ


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## Tao (Jun 9, 2015)

Superpenguin said:


> Is Spiderman the most common reference in this thread?



It's because Spiderman and Jesus are close friends. Didn't you know this?


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## Le Ham (Jun 9, 2015)

kayleee said:


> calm the hell down, I'm not flaming or insulting anyone.
> ---
> You really think God spoke to a man named Noah and said "build a big ****ing boat and find two of every animal cause I'm gonna flood the world and kill everyone." Lol ok
> ---
> I'm not sure I see the point in a God at all with that statement lmao



Maybe it's because I've dealt with atheists and general people who purposely try to rile me up with language like this, or maybe this is the Internet and inferences on people's emotional intent when speaking are not always clear and easy to make. It just bothers me, I'm sorry.
That and I feel myself hurting inside when I get into "debates" like this. It's becoming a joke thread, people are going nuts here, and I'm sure it's going to be closed soon. I don't know what being offended is supposed to feel like, but I bet it feels like what I'm feeling rn.
Not that you care, but yeah this is becoming detrimental to my health. Seeya.


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## kayleee (Jun 9, 2015)

ChooChooMuffin said:


> Maybe it's because I've dealt with atheists and general people who purposely try to rile me up with language like this, or maybe this is the Internet and inferences on people's emotional intent when speaking are not always clear and easy to make. It just bothers me, I'm sorry.
> That and I feel myself hurting inside when I get into "debates" like this. It's becoming a joke thread, people are going nuts here, and I'm sure it's going to be closed soon. I don't know what being offended is supposed to feel like, but I bet it feels like what I'm feeling rn.
> Not that you care, but yeah this is becoming detrimental to my health. Seeya.



Please don't feel offended by other people's opinions especially on an online animal crossing forum. I'm sorry you are upset, and it was not mine or anyone else's intentions (as far as I can see) to hurt you. maybe stepping back from the thread is a wise decision. Hopefully you feel better soon!


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## Pharaoh (Jun 9, 2015)

ChooChooMuffin said:


> Maybe it's because I've dealt with atheists and general people who purposely try to rile me up with language like this, or maybe this is the Internet and inferences on people's emotional intent when speaking are not always clear and easy to make. It just bothers me, I'm sorry.
> That and I feel myself hurting inside when I get into "debates" like this. It's becoming a joke thread, people are going nuts here, and I'm sure it's going to be closed soon. I don't know what being offended is supposed to feel like, but I bet it feels like what I'm feeling rn.
> Not that you care, but yeah this is becoming detrimental to my health. Seeya.



Hey ChooChoo, try to calm down and don't take it as a personal attack. I know this is very important and emotional to you, but this is part of why I think threads like these aren't really all that useful, people already have an opinion and neither are actually going to listen to the other side and come to an understanding. You're all essentially arguing for nothing because you've already drawn your conclusions. Anyone with internet access can easily look up a religion that they're interested in, or likewise, the opposition of religion. It's really easy to find where you belong but it should stay a personal journey and shouldn't interfere with political, economical, or social issues at all. Your spiritual journey, or lack thereof, is your own business.


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## Beardo (Jun 9, 2015)

Religion is such a touchy topic. If everyone could just be open minded, and do more listening/reading than talking/bashing, we'd all be great. There are great and interesting things, people, rituals, and points of view in every religion.

*Just because you don't believe in/actively practice a religion or religious figure, you shouldn't bash it. That's stupid and makes you look close-minded*

Just let people believe in whatever the hell they want to and be done with it!


And if you're going to ask a question about a religious belief/ritual, at least be polite about it. A question shouldn't include something insulting in it.


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## Bowie (Jun 9, 2015)

I'm pretty agnostic in my beliefs as an atheist. I believe we have no concrete knowledge of any higher power, but I also think we don't know otherwise either. After all, theories are just theories, and the Bible is just a book. As I've said previously, I'm on a constant spiritual journey and I'd rather experience things for myself than relay on any theories or documentations of events that may or may not have happened. That being said, I still think the world would be better off without religion in a lot of ways.


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## rev1175 (Jun 9, 2015)

Apple2012 said:


> Yep, I knew this thread would actually get heated up.



It was all a matter of when, really.


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## Pharaoh (Jun 9, 2015)

rev1175 said:


> It was all a matter of when, really.



It's not too bad yet, I've definitely seen worse on the deviantART religion forum.


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## Alolan_Apples (Jun 9, 2015)

Pharaoh said:


> It's not too bad yet, I've definitely seen worse on the deviantART religion forum.



You know, politics and religion are two subjects that are better off if not mentioned on the internet. It's okay to share your religious or political views on TBT, but to get into a fight/argument over heavily opinionated content like this, that is downright unacceptable. Even on larger sites, it's still unacceptable.


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## Nay (Jun 9, 2015)

Trundle said:


> I'm not sure where I see the point in a God who makes everyone 100% happy and safe all the time no matter what. You couldn't even consider that living.



Honestly ... it's not about happiness or anything luxury, it's that some people have it so bad below the threshold that I can't care if God exists or not if he doesn't do anything for the masses.

Miracles and such, why do they only happen to some people? Is that implying that the people who have it bad somehow implicitly deserve it? I refuse to believe such a thing so I refuse to believe a God even exists. If they do exist and do nothing or only for certain people they have no worth to me


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## Pharaoh (Jun 9, 2015)

Apple2012 said:


> You know, politics and religion are two subjects that are better off if not mentioned on the internet. It's okay to share your religious or political views on TBT, but to get into a fight/argument over heavily opinionated content like this, that is downright unacceptable. Even on larger sites, it's still unacceptable.



I don't think religion or politics has any meaning or place on most forums. Understandably artists might use their art to convey political or religious stances, so I might let it slide on art forums, but video game forums? Just seems pointless. Nobody comes here to debate existence or the meaning of the Universe, people come here to fellowship about talking animals and Nintendo. Just seems out of place. There's really no way this can be considered an educational exchange without emotions attached, that's what Google is for.


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## Alolan_Apples (Jun 9, 2015)

Pharaoh said:


> I don't think religion or politics has any meaning or place on most forums. Understandably artists might use their art to convey political or religious stances, so I might let it slide on art forums, but video game forums? Just seems pointless. Nobody comes here to debate existence or the meaning of the Universe, people come here to fellowship about talking animals and Nintendo. Just seems out of place. There's really no way this can be considered an educational exchange without emotions attached, that's what Google is for.



You are actually right. But even on video game forums, people like to talk about recent events or other stuff like politics and religion. That's what off-topic forums like this are for. Anything that doesn't fit in the other board descriptions.


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## Pharaoh (Jun 9, 2015)

Apple2012 said:


> You are actually right. But even on video game forums, people like to talk about recent events or other stuff like politics and religion. That's what off-topic forums like this are for. Anything that doesn't fit in the other board descriptions.



Yeah, I realize most social settings of any kind still want to discuss world events, I understand. But I guess it just depends on the relevance in it, for me anyways. Like if it's just a general, "TELL ME YOUR RELIGION AND TELL ME WHY IT'S GOOD' or "TELL ME WHY YOU'RE AN ATHEIST AND WHY THAT IS GOOD' it's just the same old stuff to me, I don't really care who's religious or not or if they have anything to say about it, because spirituality or lack thereof really just comes down to personal experience, and no two people are alike in this regard or any others. So it's just going to get down to debates based on emotion rather than sensibility. 

Politics probably hold a little more ground, but I find them boring personally, so that's probably why I don't advocate for discussion on forums like these for that sort of thing, but I understand why people find them important to talk about and expose current events and issues.


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## Tao (Jun 9, 2015)

Pharaoh said:


> I don't think religion or politics has any meaning or place on most forums. Understandably artists might use their art to convey political or religious stances, so I might let it slide on art forums, but video game forums? Just seems pointless. Nobody comes here to debate existence or the meaning of the Universe, people come here to fellowship about talking animals and Nintendo. Just seems out of place. There's really no way this can be considered an educational exchange without emotions attached, that's what Google is for.



What about video games that have or could have religious and/or political themes within them, which a lot of them do? Surely that would open the door for discussion?

I mean, yea, this is a forum primarily for Animal Crossing but it's not limited to just that.


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## Pharaoh (Jun 9, 2015)

Tao said:


> What about video games that have or could have religious and/or political themes within them, which a lot of them do? Surely that would open the door for discussion?
> 
> I mean, yea, this is a forum primarily for Animal Crossing but it's not limited to just that.



I thought of that, that would generate discussion sure, but a political or religious sub-forum for a site that primarily discusses Nintendo, I don't think that theme would come up terribly often, unless you count the political rivalry between The Mushroom Kingdom and the Darklands. But like I said above your reply, it all depends on the relevancy of the issue. Seeing these constant religion debates just popping up over and over again generating the same replies from religious vs atheist is just boring and over-done, there's nothing that can possibly be said that has never been said before.


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## Nay (Jun 9, 2015)

There's nothing wrong with an emotional debate, although I guess it can seem boring. Just imo


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## Pharaoh (Jun 9, 2015)

Nay said:


> There's nothing wrong with an emotional debate, although I guess it can seem boring. Just imo



I don't think there's anything wrong with it, it's just...how much can you say? It's all emotion driven when it comes to people asking you what you personally believe or don't believe in. Otherwise if anyone wants to learn about a specific religion or lifestyle, all they have to do it look it up on Google or Wiki. Has anything in this thread inspired anything in anyone? Or are we all still leaving with the same opinions we had if this thread did or didn't exist. Just seems pointless. Maybe because I've come across so many that play out the same way every single time.


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## Tao (Jun 9, 2015)

Well there's the religious stuff from Zelda games as well as arguable political stuff (even if it's barely there) or the political and religious themes that crop up in Pokemon. I'm just throwing out a few more examples to go with the Mario thing.





Pharaoh said:


> there's nothing that can possibly be said that has never been said before.



Religion is much like a piece of toast. 

That's probably never been said before and if it has, I would be very willing to hear that persons reasoning to why religion is like a piece of toast.


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## Pharaoh (Jun 9, 2015)

Tao said:


> Well there's the religious stuff from Zelda games as well as arguable political stuff (even if it's barely there) or the political and religious themes that crop up in Pokemon. I'm just throwing out a few more examples to go with the Mario thing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Religion is like a piece of toast, often times it's burnt-out and the crumbs taint the tub of butter that is humanity. 

I suppose, I don't deny there isn't anything religious or political worth talking about in Pokemon or Zelda, it's just not anything I see coming up very often. Maybe I'm just blind to the importance of it, maybe everyone's been talking about it all along and I've just missed it. Either way, politics and religion are not the first things I notice or care about in any game, or in life, so I don't much see the point. I just don't. But I guess if you all enjoy discussing it, by all means, who am I to stop you.


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## Nay (Jun 9, 2015)

Pharaoh said:


> I don't think there's anything wrong with it, it's just...how much can you say? It's all emotion driven when it comes to people asking you what you personally believe or don't believe in. Otherwise if anyone wants to learn about a specific religion or lifestyle, all they have to do it look it up on Google or Wiki. Has anything in this thread inspired anything in anyone? Or are we all still leaving with the same opinions we had if this thread did or didn't exist. Just seems pointless. Maybe because I've come across so many that play out the same way every single time.



Personally I think it's interesting to see how people come to terns with religion or spirituality. It's a pretty personal topic. If arguing is inevitable then so be it. Rarely when people are talking about religion are they seriously trying to convert anyone, or I don't think so anyway ..


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## Pharaoh (Jun 9, 2015)

Nay said:


> Personally I think it's interesting to see how people come to terns with religion or spirituality. It's a pretty personal topic. If arguing is inevitable then so be it. Rarely when people are talking about religion are they seriously trying to convert anyone, or I don't think so anyway ..



Personal stories have the potential to be interesting, certainly. The deviantART forum is pretty bad when it comes to religious discussion in general, so I guess you've just got to see some of the posts that have turned up on there through the years, and any discussion or debate on religion is pretty much that. It's always the same either way, an exhausted subject. Maybe I'm just old and tired of it.


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## Tao (Jun 9, 2015)

Pharaoh said:


> Religion is like a piece of toast, often times it's burnt-out and the crumbs taint the tub of butter that is humanity.




This is everything I hoped for.


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## Pharaoh (Jun 9, 2015)

Tao said:


> This is everything I hoped for.



I'm so glad Tao, I didn't want to let you down.


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## Yukari Yakumo (Jun 9, 2015)

DarkDesertFox said:


> You honestly can't blame God for everything bad that happens in the world. Especially with people. He gave people free will and if he interfered every time someone tried to do something evil that wouldn't be the free will at all. He'd be controlling people's actions. As for natural disasters, yes God could prevent them, but he has a reason for not doing so. God is good.


_All that is needed for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing._
Edmund Burke

If one takes this further, one can say that God commits the sin of allowing evil(Islam specifically states this fyi; which for the record I am a little impressed by since Islam actually confronts the issue).

A further analogy, HAL in 2001:A Space Odyssey.  Nostalgia Critic once said you can't blame HAL for his actions without blaming humans too, since humans created him in such a way that he came to behave the way he did.  If you look at God from this point of view(who has the added power of fore-knowledge), you cannot praise God for all that is good, without also blaming him for all that is bad.  He is the source/origin of EVERYTHING.  That includes evil.
Does that make God evil?  Maybe, maybe not.  But, if one follows that line of reasoning, he is not devoid of responsibility.

I once saw a news report showing a young boy being beaten by bullies.  A young lady walked by and did not even acknowledge what was happening.  The boy screamed for her to help, but she simply continued walking.  Do I think she is a terrible person for this?  Yeah, kinda.
From this, I don't think God should be allowed to "get off the hook," merely for the free-will argument or because "He's God.  He makes the rules.  He knows what's best."



Pharaoh said:


> I don't think there's anything wrong with it, it's just...how much can you say?


Considering that it is usually a rather basic fact of life, I think the answer is "A lot."


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## Pharaoh (Jun 9, 2015)

Yukari Yakumo said:


> Considering that it is usually a rather basic fact of life, I think the answer is "A lot."



Of course a lot could be said, but it's usually mirroring/parroting/repeating ideas and debate points that have been used for years, there's really nothing any different that can be used to enlighten or convert anyone who already has a firm grasp of their belief. I am simply questioning the amount of NEW content that can be brought to this ancient discussion, not if there's any content at all to be had. So far in this thread, it's been the usual, aside from Tao's wonderful toast.


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## Yukari Yakumo (Jun 9, 2015)

Pharaoh said:


> Of course a lot could be said, but it's usually mirroring/parroting/repeating ideas and debate points that have been used for years, there's really nothing any different that can be used to enlighten or convert anyone who already has a firm grasp of their belief. I am simply questioning the amount of NEW content that can be brought to this ancient discussion, not if there's any content at all to be had. So far in this thread, it's been the usual, aside from Tao's wonderful toast.


You usually have to examine what's already been said before you can get something new.  Human civilization has been debating it for millenia and we still have no definitive answer.  If we don't discuss it, we can't make breakthroughs.  Will we get one here?  Who knows.  But the fact that this thread has gone for 14 pages and still has avoided becoming a flame war and being shutdown I think says something positive about the maturity of the current community.  Regardless of the fact that no one has been converted from their previous stances, I for one am enjoying every minute of this.


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## KainAronoele (Jun 9, 2015)

kayleee said:


> Okay but what reason could possibly be good enough to not save a bunch of innocent lives? Obviously you won't have the answer to this I'm just musing because saying "God has his reasons" is such an overused step-around by theists for things they cannot explain and logically make no sense at all coming from an apparently omnibenevalant God




I've apparently missed a lot today, and haven't read all the responses yet, so sorry if I end up repeating things that others have said.
Every religion, and even no religion has it's benefits and disadvantages.
Like Pharaoh had said, no God really interferes with things, at least to a point that in turn makes everything happen NOT out of free will of the ppl that had things happen to them.
As you stated, some ppl claim that blah blah happened by the work of God, and I think in some circumstances he does help in certain ways, in certain moments. Those are called miracles, or called disasters.
Again, no one knows how or why he chooses certain things to happen, but he does have his reasons, and Christians just have faith in him that he chose it for a good reason. Whether it's to make a statement and bring attention to those ppl doing wrong, so it now is brought down for those things, than to let it keep going on in secret, or something. I'm bad at examples lol.
If something happens to someone, it happens through a sequence of others and their life that led to that happening.
Like, say I guy is headed to work and on his way a piano falls on him and he dies. He died because he decided to take that route. The piano guy forgot to tighten one side of the ropes causing it to fall on the guy for taking that route. The lady who ordered the piano got it today because she needed it for her son's Welcome Home party and wanted it levered in through the window rather than having them assemble the piano in the house cuz it would take hours longer, which she didn't have time for, causing the guy to have to bring the piano up which falls onto the guy that took that route. The son was coming home from graduating college and was bringing his new wife, which loves the piano, so as a gift he asked his mother to get a piano for her to play whenever they'd come to visit, causing, yes all those things to sequence.
God can't pause time a few seconds as the guy is walking so that the piano misses him just in time. He can't make the guy take a different route, as then it wouldn't have been that guy's free will. He can't make the farmer not water his 10 miles of crops so that the town didn't have rain the night before causing the guy's normal route to be really muddy and would ruin his shoes for work. He can't make the farmer choose a different career so that he would have never bought the lot and harvested all those plants there that he had to water.
Everything is a reaction to something else, why that all happened in that way, only God knows, and it was just time for the guy to go, also a reason only He knows.

I know this probably confuses some things and/or raises more questions, but I just wanted to voice my opinion, like the thread is for xD



Now to read these like 60 new posts @ _@


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## Midoriya (Jun 9, 2015)

kayleee said:


> if this so-called "heaven" is even a thing, which I'm not sure I'd want to even be a part of anyway since all it consists of is worshipping this "god" for eternity. he's very self centered to create a bunch of humans to sit around and worship him even beyond death like omg let me go to hell instead



So you'd rather go to hell than heaven?  Though you realize that hell is a part of religion as well.  Hell literally translates to eternal damnation.  In other words, eternal suffering.  So if you were equate it to physical pain, it would be like getting stabbed in the heart with a knife, only a thousand times over, forever.  Though if you were truly atheist you wouldn't believe in heaven NOR hell, as both are part of religion.  That last sentence by you confuses me a little, just trying to understand what you meant by let you go to hell instead, since it clearly contradicts your view that neither exists.

The reason god lets people suffer, and why others don't is simple.  It's not that he doesn't care, it's that more often than not it's ourselves we have to blame for.  Everything bad that happens in the world to us is almost always caused by someone else, unless it's something like a natural disaster or something healthwise that can't be avoided.  Otherwise, War, Global Warming, everything people say is our fault, really IS our fault.  The reason God doesn't step in and intervene and make everyone healthy and happy, to where there's no suffering in the world is based on a couple things.  First of all, can you imagine a world where everyone lives a long time and there's no war or anything separating us?  The world's population would have spiraled out of control centuries ago and our natural resources would of all ended up used and the world would be a wasteland of nothing right now.  I don't think you want to imagine a world in which everyone keeps living forever, especially when there's been people in the past that needed suffering like Hitler for example.  What others are trying to say in this thread is that since we were given free will, we choose what we want to do.  We have the option to make good or bad choices, and those choices in turn affect other people's lives in a chain, and THAT is why there are people suffering in this world.  Not because God "lets" it happen.  Greed, Popularity, you name it.  It's all caused by us.  In Genesis our first two ancestors, Adam and Eve, supposedly ate an apple that they shouldn't have giving them the knowledge of God, and in turn sin was created.  Thousands of years later God gave his son so that whoever believes in him SUPPOSEDLY gets eternal life.  That can literally be translated to the point where since we have free will, we can choose to believe in Jesus, or not.  When we do, it's the equivalent of saying sorry for our sins, and we're saved.  Of course you can always choose to be atheist, and God nor anyone else cares to stop you.  If you don't apologize to your father, then you're separated from him.  And that goes back to my point in eternal damnation.  Since we have free will that's why there are atheists, because they don't believe in religion, NOR do they have to.  No one is stopping anyone from not believing, and no one is stopping anyone from believing either.  The reason things like God and faith exist is because it gives us something to believe in when there's no other answers.  Sure, we may not be able to wrap our heads around something like a God, and that is why there are atheists and believers.  Atheists are the ones who can't and choose not to, and believers are the ones who ALSO can't, but do choose to believe.  There's really no disadvantages to believing anyway.  If someone said I could live forever if I believed in something, hell, why wouldn't I take that chance?  Unfortunately that's not the case for all people.  Since God gave us free will that is not only why there is suffering in this world, and why he doesn't intervene, but also the same exact reason that debates like this will never end, and henceforth why discussions like this are better left not touched.  If God did choose to not give us free will, and control us, then he could essentially force us to believe in him.  However, he gave us the gift of free will and that's why there will always be people that do and don't believe in him.  Instead of thinking of ourselves as two different kinds of people, it's better and healthier to think of ourselves as two halves of the same whole, originating from the same base.

The most important thing above all of religion is to respect each other's views and treat each other with kindness.  That in its self is more important than religion, or anything like it.  If everyone in this world were able to respect each other like this, there could be a good world.  A world in which all people walk together towards the future, hand in hand.

Anyway, done posting on this thread since it's a highly controversial topic.  There's no reason for anyone else to post on it either, as neither side will ever win, or gain anything from it.  Let's just let it die and get back to what this forum was created for, Nintendo, and Animal Crossing.


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## Nay (Jun 9, 2015)

Yukari Yakumo said:


> You usually have to examine what's already been said before you can get something new.  Human civilization has been debating it for millenia and we still have no definitive answer.  If we don't discuss it, we can't make breakthroughs.  Will we get one here?  Who knows.  But the fact that this thread has gone for 14 pages and still has avoided becoming a flame war and being shutdown I think says something positive about the maturity of the current community.  Despite no one being converted from their previous stances, I for one am enjoying every minute of this.



u are seriously cool.


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## KainAronoele (Jun 9, 2015)

Angelmarina said:


> Spoiler: Because it's long
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, plus when I brought it up he then turned it on me saying how I can't bring up the Bible cuz some things I do aren't Biblical. Like, I wasn't trying to make this a Who's more Biblical war, just asked an honest question cuz it really confused me.

Yup, as an example above ^ my dad does the same. Turns it on you, or guilt trips you in a way to make him look like such a sad person that never gets anything or is always accused of being wrong, etc. I also cry easily too, which would then make him even more angry and say "Idc if you're getting all upset, this is happening from your own doing." And I'm like, what? I'm just living my life how I think I should. Why is this all my fault?
I'm 19, lol, and I've been so sheltered, though I'm mature, I cn't do lots of things on my own, and I hate being alone... Off subject though.
He also told me the Love is just a feeling, and I can get over it. In short telling me that family is more important than love and that I need to just leave him cuz I "WILL" get over him and be able to move on (with someone he approves of)
I'm hoping once we have space from each other it'll be easier and he'll be able to realize that I'm an adult.


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## Pharaoh (Jun 9, 2015)

Yukari Yakumo said:


> You usually have to examine what's already been said before you can get something new.  Human civilization has been debating it for millenia and we still have no definitive answer.  If we don't discuss it, we can't make breakthroughs.  Will we get one here?  Who knows.  But the fact that this thread has gone for 14 pages and still has avoided becoming a flame war and being shutdown I think says something positive about the maturity of the current community.  Regardless of the fact that no one has been converted from their previous stances, I for one am enjoying every minute of this.



Well if that's what fulfills you. I guess seeing so many of the same arguments used over and over has numbed me. I doubt anything insightful will ever come, and the fact that it HAS been debated so long only proves that there IS no answer and will continue down this perpetual loop. Religion can be debated for its standards and conduct, but something as personal as spirituality can't, because it is personal and connected to emotion. I guess I just don't get the point of boring discussions that go no where in the end, ultimately. Though I will agree on one thing, the fact that it's gone on this long without any hate is a giant kudos, I usually see religious topics fall apart after the first page.


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## KainAronoele (Jun 9, 2015)

Ah, so should I close this since everyone thinks it was a bad idea to make?
Feel a bit offended, lol, bt I guess I should have made it more of a Seeking advice thread where if you have a question about something in your religion you don't understand, or about another or something that someone could help them out, rather than ppl stating opinions as lots will disagree with.

I'm sorry for causing a ruckus, it was not my intention, but then again I didn't completely see it through, so I'm sorry for that.
I didn't really think that if as long as ppl were calm when replying but still getting points across that it would still get kinda bad.
I'm also sorry for anyone I've let down by deciding to create this thread.


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## Midoriya (Jun 9, 2015)

KainAronoele said:


> Ah, so should I close this since everyone thinks it was a bad idea to make?
> Feel a bit offended, lol, bt I guess I should have made it more of a Seeking advice thread where if you have a question about something in your religion you don't understand, or about another or something that someone could help them out, rather than ppl stating opinions as lots will disagree with.
> 
> I'm sorry for causing a ruckus, it was not my intention, but then again I didn't completely see it through, so I'm sorry for that.
> ...




It's okay, really!  It's not your fault at all.  You were just seeking advice about a relationship and people gave it to you.  That in itself is perfectly fine, and so is discussing religion.  The only difference is in discussing religion there will always be opinionated people.  But this thread has gone REALLY well for a religious thread on a Nintendo forum.  15 pages and still no flaming.  You don't have to close it just yet, it's your decision though.  Stay frosty, my friend.


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## Pharaoh (Jun 9, 2015)

KainAronoele said:


> Ah, so should I close this since everyone thinks it was a bad idea to make?
> Feel a bit offended, lol, bt I guess I should have made it more of a Seeking advice thread where if you have a question about something in your religion you don't understand, or about another or something that someone could help them out, rather than ppl stating opinions as lots will disagree with.
> 
> I'm sorry for causing a ruckus, it was not my intention, but then again I didn't completely see it through, so I'm sorry for that.
> ...



You haven't done anything wrong, it just came across as a more general thread where the same kinds of arguments are going to be rehashed, so that's why I said what I had to say about it. I don't want to discourage you, I've just been around this for so long that it always seems like it ends or repeats in the same way. I think it's going well though, I haven't seen any hateful comments at all. Maybe tailoring the thread would be a good idea though, to have people from different religions or lack thereof to be able to answer questions, instead of debating. I don't know, it's up to you like Riley said!


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## Alolan_Apples (Jun 9, 2015)

KainAronoele said:


> Ah, so should I close this since everyone thinks it was a bad idea to make?
> Feel a bit offended, lol, bt I guess I should have made it more of a Seeking advice thread where if you have a question about something in your religion you don't understand, or about another or something that someone could help them out, rather than ppl stating opinions as lots will disagree with.
> 
> I'm sorry for causing a ruckus, it was not my intention, but then again I didn't completely see it through, so I'm sorry for that.
> ...



I'm sorry that your thread was damaged by an argument. Even I tried to avoid getting involved. Actually, I wasn't arguing, but by bringing up how controversial subjects like this can get heated too quickly, I did somehow get involved.


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## KainAronoele (Jun 9, 2015)

Riley said:


> It's okay, really!  It's not your fault at all.  You were just seeking advice about a relationship and people gave it to you.  That in itself is perfectly fine, and so is discussing religion.  The only difference is in discussing religion there will always be opinionated people.  But this thread has gone REALLY well for a religious thread on a Nintendo forum.  15 pages and still no flaming.  You don't have to close it just yet, it's your decision though.  Stay frosty, my friend.



As a sensitive person I just took some of the talk as it kind of being my fault, as they're saying it's not needed, so since I created it, feels as if they're blaming me xD
I take stuff too personally sometimes though lol.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Pharaoh said:


> You haven't done anything wrong, it just came across as a more general thread where the same kinds of arguments are going to be rehashed, so that's why I said what I had to say about it. I don't want to discourage you, I've just been around this for so long that it always seems like it ends or repeats in the same way. I think it's going well though, I haven't seen any hateful comments at all. Maybe tailoring the thread would be a good idea though, to have people from different religions or lack thereof to be able to answer questions, instead of debating. I don't know, it's up to you like Riley said!



It's fine, as I said above, i take some things too personally, so I asked to be sure cuz sometimes I just misunderstand lol.
What is tailoring? Like to adjust the topic as I brought up?
I may do that if others agree, so maybe it doesn't end up getting so bad lol.


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## Pharaoh (Jun 9, 2015)

KainAronoele said:


> As a sensitive person I just took some of the talk as it kind of being my fault, as they're saying it's not needed, so since I created it, feels as if they're blaming me xD
> I take stuff too personally sometimes though lol.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> ...



It's okay Kain, it was never my intention to personally attack you, as if it's your fault for making a thread, it's not. It's just the replies. I mean as is, it's not bad at all, but if you wanted to maintain focus and make it more of a support thread where people can reach out to others, that might work out just fine. Don't feel bad though, please, I never intended to make you feel badly.


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## Midoriya (Jun 9, 2015)

KainAronoele said:


> As a sensitive person I just took some of the talk as it kind of being my fault, as they're saying it's not needed, so since I created it, feels as if they're blaming me xD
> I take stuff too personally sometimes though lol.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> ...



It's okay, I'm sensitive too!  No one's blaming you for anything though.  Everything is chill here.


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## KainAronoele (Jun 9, 2015)

Pharaoh said:


> It's okay Kain, it was never my intention to personally attack you, as if it's your fault for making a thread, it's not. It's just the replies. I mean as is, it's not bad at all, but if you wanted to maintain focus and make it more of a support thread where people can reach out to others, that might work out just fine. Don't feel bad though, please, I never intended to make you feel badly.



It's ok. No harm done ^^
I just wanted to be sure. I feel so bad when I do something to make someone think bad of me, so I wanted to clear it up and apologize if I did do something to mess something up.
Idk, my mind is trailing elsewhere now. Been a long day and need to eat!


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## eggs (Jun 9, 2015)

besides all the other god talk, my family is catholic, so naturally, i'm catholic as well.
however, i've been seriously questioning my religion lately. i'm about to be 18 and basically independent (my mother told me that i can't question jesus/god's existence until i'm out of her house), so this is pretty big for me. i'm thinking i'm more jewish than anything, but... i don't know. religion is confusing.
anyone have any conversion stories?


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## Yukari Yakumo (Jun 9, 2015)

eggs said:


> besides all the other god talk, my family is catholic, so naturally, i'm catholic as well.
> however, i've been seriously questioning my religion lately. i'm about to be 18 and basically independent (my mother told me that i can't question jesus/god's existence until i'm out of her house), so this is pretty big for me. i'm thinking i'm more jewish than anything, but... i don't know. religion is confusing.
> anyone have any conversion stories?


Conversion to Judaism is trickier than others since it's become more about the ethnicity.
Basically, you only get full benefits if you're born into it.  You can convert in, but you're kind of a second-class citizen no matter what.


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## eggs (Jun 9, 2015)

Yukari Yakumo said:


> Conversion to Judaism is trickier than others since it's become more about the ethnicity.
> Basically, you only get full benefits if you're born into it.  You can convert in, but you're kind of a second-class citizen no matter what.



full benefits? what do you mean by this?
also, thank you for replying, it's greatly appreciated.


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## Yukari Yakumo (Jun 9, 2015)

eggs said:


> full benefits? what do you mean by this?
> also, thank you for replying, it's greatly appreciated.


I don't know about the particulars(I'm no expert, so grain of salt), but again these days being Jewish is more about the hereditary ethnicity than the religious practices.  You can be Jewish and not follow Judaism(a person can become, say, an atheist), and you can convert to Judaism but still won't be Jewish.  Part of it comes from the doctrines(which some agree with and others don't) that the Jews are the chosen people which goes into the narrative the Jewish people have for themselves which is that even though they are the "chosen people" that doesn't keep God from punishing them when they act poorly(i.e. even the favorite son/daughter can still be punished for misbehaving)
A rabbi once talked to my History of World Religions class about it.


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## Izzy Reincarnated (Jun 10, 2015)

Personally, I'm against religions. I do not believe in a so called "god".
I believe that all humans are gods. I believe we can make anything happen with the way of our thinking. I believe humans THEMSELVES have the potential to communicate with each other through thoughts, change how one being feels, manipulate energy, read minds, manipulate weather, sense how one is like, protect oneself from negative energy, etc.

As for does hell exist? Yes and No. You create your own hell.


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## KainAronoele (Jun 10, 2015)

I have changed the thread a bit, and the rules. It's mostly the same, just changed some words around, but check it out and lemme know if I should reword or add another! ^^


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## unravel (Jun 10, 2015)

Christian people: Roman Catholic religion is hoax because they don't worship the saints and Mother Mary.


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## Eldin (Jun 10, 2015)

Apatheism was mentioned at the beginning of this thread, and although I've never heard the word before I feel like that basically sums up any sort of religious -ism I would fit into.

It's just not something I'm concerned about personally. The existence of a deity or afterlife, or moral consequences. Whether there is any purpose or not, it doesn't affect how I live my life. Any eventual answer, if it existed, wouldn't present itself until death anyways, so it still has no relevance to me. I dislike when people ask me what religion I am a part of, or if I'm an atheist. It doesn't feel right to say that I am even that, because it's not that I strongly _don't_ believe, it's just that I don't know and am content not to.

I have no problem with other religions. Of course I'm not overly fond of religious institutions as a whole due to our history of killing each other over it. But as for the present day I don't begrudge anyone for what they believe, as long as they are not still holding onto violent or bigoted viewpoints themselves. And it is definitely an interesting topic that I don't mind learning more about.

Kudos on the thread making it so long, by the way. The topic usually riles everyone up pretty quickly


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## tumut (Jun 10, 2015)

ITookYourWaffles said:


> Christian people: Roman Catholic religion is hoax because they don't worship the saints and Mother Mary.



Lol what? I think you're a little confused.


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## Kaiaa (Jun 10, 2015)

Because of my own personal experiences I will admit that I'm atheist. I was raised Christian and for a time, I thought I believed but I always knew in the back of my mind that I didn't, I was just too afraid to say it. 

To me, religion isn't so black and white though. I don't have a problem with people who follow religions. In fact, when I was little my grandmother (who looooved religion and spirituality and took me to all kinds prayer services for different religions) taught me about all sorts of religions and they all had the same basic principle: to be kind to one another. I won't fight a person over their beliefs and I won't try to convince them that their deity or the miracles they see are non existent because it's literally none of my business. If I don't want religious people to preach at me I don't have any right to "preach" at them either.  Just as long as a person is good to others and to themselves I don't matter what religion or non religion they follow. I accept all people and I hope that someday, everyone else around me can accept others even when they think different, look different, or have different ideals. As long as a person isn't hurting another, I don't mind what they believe. If they believe in hurting others though...we have a problem.


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## KainAronoele (Jun 10, 2015)

Kaiaa said:


> Because of my own personal experiences I will admit that I'm atheist. I was raised Christian and for a time, I thought I believed but I always knew in the back of my mind that I didn't, I was just too afraid to say it.
> 
> To me, religion isn't so black and white though. I don't have a problem with people who follow religions. In fact, when I was little my grandmother (who looooved religion and spirituality and took me to all kinds prayer services for different religions) taught me about all sorts of religions and they all had the same basic principle: to be kind to one another. I won't fight a person over their beliefs and I won't try to convince them that their deity or the miracles they see are non existent because it's literally none of my business. If I don't want religious people to preach at me I don't have any right to "preach" at them either.  Just as long as a person is good to others and to themselves I don't matter what religion or non religion they follow. I accept all people and I hope that someday, everyone else around me can accept others even when they think different, look different, or have different ideals. As long as a person isn't hurting another, I don't mind what they believe. If they believe in hurting others though...we have a problem.


See, though I become a lil sad when I hear ppl are atheist due to my beliefs and fear when they pass out they'll be hurting forever (ya know as stated) I do respect the ones that respect ppl of other religions. I had a few friends that were atheist and even just talking about God or anything of my religion CLOSE to them they'd ignore me for a couple days, which really bugged me.
I'm not one that forces things down their throats, or others, but if asked I will share how I feel and what it means to me.
What really bugged me was when they would ASK ME something about it and then get mad at me when I start talking about it... Like you brought it up, wtf??

I do agree with you about not trying to prove or argue with someone that it's impossible for their God(s) to be fake or not real or whatever. Especially if they didn't ask too. Let them believe what they want, if they ask you to help them out or what they think of it, then if that's what you wanna do, then whatever they gave you permission, but to go out of your way just to make someone who is totally content with their beliefs question it or put thoughts into your head that was probably 100% opinion-based responses, there's just no need for it, and doesn't help in any way.


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## Alolan_Apples (Jun 10, 2015)

Kaiaa said:


> As long as a person isn't hurting another, I don't mind what they believe. If they believe in hurting others though...we have a problem.



I was actually reading through both the Bible and Quran to see what they said about religious extremism. They both forbid holy wars and other principles of radicalism. The lines people interpreted as support for harm really aren't encouraging harm. The first commandment (You Shall have no other Gods before me) isn't for everyone to follow. It's for everyone following Christianity (including me) to follow. If you have never followed (or no longer follow), this doesn't apply to you. Yet, Christian extremists made it apply to everyone. And what's the penalty according to the extremists? Death. Does the Bible forbid the death penalty for apostasy and infidelity? Yes, it forbids killing as punishing apostates and infidels is only up to God, not society. But people will always believe that is suggests killing non-Christians, even if it isn't true. As for the Quran, the line "spread by the sword" does not mean "holy war". It means "struggling" or "striving". I think the only reason why it caused holy wars was because of something endangering Islam at the beginning. I should look up more about this to prove my point.


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## Rosie :) (Jun 11, 2015)

I believe in clouds, kthx


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## Midoriya (Jun 11, 2015)

Rosie :) said:


> I believe in clouds, kthx



So you believe in rain gods like Native Americans do?

Not quite sure what you were trying to say or if this was a joke.


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## Yukari Yakumo (Jun 11, 2015)

Riley said:


> So you believe in rain gods like Native Americans do?


Why not?  They're kinda cool.






People still worship Odin and Thor in ?satr? you know.


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## Tao (Jun 11, 2015)

Yukari Yakumo said:


> Why not?  They're kinda cool.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I like the gods who look like they could kick other god's asses.


If you're gonna worship somebody, why not somebody who looks like they would win the Royal Rumble of the gods?


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## Pharaoh (Jun 11, 2015)

If we're going to talk about badass gods here, Ra is ****ing incredible. His story is that he's in charge of the transition of day into night, and literally pulls the sun on a boat through the sky, and when the sun dips below the horizon, it was said that Ra had to make a journey through the underworld so that he could become reborn to pull the sun through the sky the next day. Ra literally goes through hell every single ****ing day and fights off the ****ing evils of the d ead in an epic battle all while pulling the mother****ing sun on a boat until he rises the next day. 

It's also said that all humans were formed through Ra's TEARS alone. He literally had a bad day, cried, and created mankind. 






He's also so badass that he got tired of the rebirthing **** and merged with the god of the underworld to become the leader there as well, holy crap man it's no wonder they made him into a Yu-Gi-Oh card.


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## Yukari Yakumo (Jun 11, 2015)

Tao said:


> I like the gods who look like they could kick other god's asses.
> 
> 
> If you're gonna worship somebody, why not somebody who looks like they would win the Royal Rumble of the gods?


I have a feeling you would enjoy SMITE.  The whole draw of the game is "You are a god!  Are you able to prove yourself the strongest?"
Used it to do a research paper on Mayan deities;  got a 90 between the paper and presentation.


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## nintendofan85 (Jun 11, 2015)

I'm a Christian, Southern Baptist. (I mentioned my denomination because a lot of people online, when they find out I'm Christian, they assume I'm Catholic) I don't have anything against people that are of other denominations or religions, but I always wondered why people assume I'm Catholic.
I'm surprised everyone says children shouldn't be baptized, but I think it's fine for a child to be baptized as long as they understand it. I was baptized by my own choice at the age of 10. However, in some cases, I think kids get baptized too young. I would honestly say that 10 was sort of young.


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## Tao (Jun 11, 2015)

Yukari Yakumo said:


> I have a feeling you would enjoy SMITE.  The whole draw of the game is "You are a god!  Are you able to prove yourself the strongest?"
> Used it to do a research paper on Mayan deities;  got a 90 between the paper and presentation.



Yea, I've seen that but my computer likely won't run it properly (I don't want a laggy computer for a PvP game).
The character designs that I've seen for it are fantastic though and do make me really wanna play it! I probably should just try it and see since it's free, I don't lose anything from it.


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## Midoriya (Jun 12, 2015)

Yukari Yakumo said:


> Why not?  They're kinda cool.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I got to admit that's pretty dang awesome.


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## Rosie :) (Jun 12, 2015)

I don't really have a religion.
But I really like some of the "cool" gods(tbh they are all cool), like the Greek Gods, and the Native Americans.


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## IloveAvery (Jun 12, 2015)

I'm still undecided... I was raised as a Catholic, but I began looking into atheism and Wiccan stuff when I was about 10. I've been kinda questioning for many years, and I'm pretty sure I won't make a decision for a while.


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## spunkystella (Jun 13, 2015)

I honestly don't know what to feel right now. This forum is full of many agnostics, and I've been on the line from Christianity recently. Whenever I am about to make the switch, though, my mind hears a little voice chickening my out. Call me crazy, because I am.


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## Midoriya (Jun 14, 2015)

[Bump.  This thread needs to be on the first page so people won't make any more religious threads!]


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## KainAronoele (Jun 15, 2015)

Riley said:


> [Bump.  This thread needs to be on the first page so people won't make any more religious threads!]



Did ppl start making some? :0

Am I allow to sticky it or something? Idk lol


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## Yukari Yakumo (Jun 15, 2015)

KainAronoele said:


> Did ppl start making some? :0
> 
> Am I allow to sticky it or something? Idk lol


It'd be more convenient if it was.

Request for a sticky: +1


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## KainAronoele (Jun 15, 2015)

Yukari Yakumo said:


> It'd be more convenient if it was.
> 
> Request for a sticky: +1



How do I request it to be stickied? :0
Do I contact a mod or just do what you did and when they pop in they'll make it one? xD
I'm very bad when it comes to contacting mods, hah... *cough*


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## Locket (Jun 15, 2015)

Beardo said:


> I'm agnostic. Even mentions of religion make me really uncomfortable.
> Plus I went to church camp a few years ago and some homophobic statements were made, so I was pissed. It's a sore subject for me now. Whenever people bring up church or ask me if I go I get tense. It's especially awkward when it's mentioned at school and stuff.



This is me. This is just so much like my life.

I'm agnostic though. 




Spoiler: My story (CONTAINS THE OTHER WORD FOR DEMON)



My family doesn't go to church. Because of that, our neighborhood thought we worshiped 



Spoiler:  in here is the word



the devil


 They treated us badly, I couldn't find any friends (except my back neighbors, who accept my family for how nice we are instead of our religion) because of this. All because my family didn't go to church.



Spoiler:  This is how religious our ward is



They don't put the American flag up on Sundays. And THIS COUNTRY IS WHAT GAVE YOU RELIGIOUs FREEDOM!


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## Tao (Jun 15, 2015)

The Final Light OF Dawn said:


> (CONTAINS THE OTHER WORD FOR DEMON)




But doesn't Satan command demons rather than actually being one?


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## KainAronoele (Jun 15, 2015)

Tao said:


> But doesn't Satan command demons rather than actually being one?



Think so, he's referred to as a Fallen Angel, if using another term for him.


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## Ashuro (Jun 15, 2015)

I have no religions but I'm not atheist neither in the sense that I don't know if a God exist or not.
I doubt about the existence of a powerful being at the source of the Creation because we can still wonder how this ultimate being itself appeared, and it makes this logic of God as a "starting point" obsolete. We try too hard to explain what escape us by putting a start and a ending to it... a logical continuation. But in this specific case, this is by far beyond us. Claiming loudly "yes" or "no" about its existence will never be an adequate answer with solid and irrefutable arguments. 

But there is only one thing I'm sure : eternity is, by far, the most cruel and abominable curse ever. We can't wish that to our worst enemy. And I honestly think that religions that promote the idea of an eternal life after death have absolutely no idea of what eternity means.


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## Bowie (Jun 15, 2015)

KainAronoele said:


> Think so, he's referred to as a Fallen Angel, if using another term for him.



I know I've said I'm an atheist, but I actually like the idea of that. A "Fallgen Angel", detached from all that is considered good and associated with nothing but death and destruction sounds kind of sad. Satan is another religious figure I'd like to have a chat with, I think.


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## Midoriya (Jun 16, 2015)

Yukari Yakumo said:


> It'd be more convenient if it was.
> 
> Request for a sticky: +1



I am seconding this.  This thread is sticky-worthy for as civil as it is 

+2


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## KainAronoele (Jun 16, 2015)

Kaiaa said:


> -snip-


Are you able to sticky threads? :3
If so, may I request this thread to be stickied? ^^


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## Money Hunter (Jun 16, 2015)

Riley said:


> I am seconding this.  This thread is sticky-worthy for as civil as it is
> 
> +2



I say +3


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