# Healthcare Bill Discussion



## Bacon Boy (Mar 21, 2010)

Damn healthcare bill was passed. Well, we're screwed.

Discuss:
This is why it's on TBT Primetime, hopefully, the late-nighters are mature enough to handle this. If you don't know about the bill, scram.


Now, about Pelosi's speech...
I wish she would freaking quit with the sob stories. I'm tired of hearing how "this man was bed sick for 16 years and blah blah frickin' blah". Talk about the damn bill! It's not what we wanted. It's just the only way that sorry excuse for a president could keep his inkling of pride in-tact.


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## lilypad (Mar 21, 2010)

I personally wanted the bill to pass. But I do agree with you about Pelosi ... I strongly dislike her.


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## //RUN.exe (Mar 21, 2010)

Oh Jesus, He is coming soon!  This is a sign of the end times!


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## Vivi (Mar 21, 2010)

This seriously makes me sick to hear this. I can't believe this happening...


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## Nic (Mar 21, 2010)

my family is pissed.  im on my dsi typing


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## Rawburt (Mar 21, 2010)

Oh, that's cool I guess.


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## OJ. (Mar 21, 2010)

I'm a kid, so I wasn't in on the big news about it, but my dad says he's happy about it. And there's nothing wrong with Pelosi putting emphasis on someone if it matters.


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## Megamannt125 (Mar 21, 2010)

Government in more control? It won't be long now.
Goodbye USA.
Hello Empire of America.


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## David (Mar 21, 2010)

whats happening?


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## Pear (Mar 21, 2010)

I haven't been following it much.
If it had the public option, then it's awesome. If it doesn't, then the government's proving that it's very capable of throwing 70 billion dollars a year to insurance companies.


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## David (Mar 21, 2010)

wait healthcare likes canadas??


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## Matfox (Mar 21, 2010)

Well then we should all put on our cowboy hats and grab our pitch forks and all go marching down to the white house, where we can go burn the Obamanation at the stake, old southern style. Because the old rotting corpse that should of won the election wouldn't of.


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## Lisathegreat! (Mar 21, 2010)

*Doesn't believe this is happening*.


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## Lisathegreat! (Mar 21, 2010)

Matfox said:
			
		

> Well then we should all put on our cowboy hats and grab our pitch forks and all go marching down to the white house, where we can go burn the Obamanation at the stake, old southern style. Because the old rotting corpse that should of won the election wouldn't of.


I'm with ya' brotha! *Picks up pitchfork*. LET'S START A RIOT.. A RIOT!


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## Micah (Mar 21, 2010)

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That riot will only end up in misery business.


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## Lisathegreat! (Mar 21, 2010)

Comatose said:
			
		

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At least I let out my anger.. Probably won't help but whatever


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## David (Mar 21, 2010)

Comatose said:
			
		

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http://www.youtube.com/v/aCyGvGEtOwc


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## John102 (Mar 21, 2010)

What? I was just looking at the numbers, and I thought it had to be like a 3/4 or 2/3 majority...I haven't taken civics in a while but I think I remember something about that...


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## Tyeforce (Mar 21, 2010)

Honestly, people are making way too big a deal of this. I haven't even been paying attention to any of it, but it can't possibly be as horrible as everyone makes it seem, otherwise it would've never passed. >_>


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

Matfox said:
			
		

> Well then we should all put on our cowboy hats and grab our pitch forks and all go marching down to the white house, where we can go burn the Obamanation at the stake, old southern style. Because the old rotting corpse that should of won the election wouldn't of.


Will you just shut the he'll up, eh? Since we're playing the stereotype game... We're not all hockey playing moose huggers that roll over whenever we're thrown a bone.

And who said I liked McCain? This election sucked. The two candidates were terrible and I would have rather have had the latter than the hatter. 

Back to the healthcare: David, it's based around canada's healthcare, but not entirely made up of it. It just makes no sense why we should be FORCED into doing something by the government that's supposed to serve us, not the other way around... "for the people, by the people". This is just some agenda Obama has been pushing since his secret meeting with Clinton.


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## Sporge27 (Mar 22, 2010)

I don't think I can tell who is being sarcastic in this thread, cause some people are saying ridiculous things about how awful this is and honestly you hear people who do think its bad say those things...  

I honestly think this is a good thing to reel in the insurance companies... some, if not all, just take advantage of people in difficult situations.  I mean when you have insurance, pay for it and then when you need it find out it will do anything not to help you is just ridiculous.  I honestly don't know how this will go, but so many other countries have it and it works out alright.  I mean considering Canada does, and has a higher life expectancy, lower infant mortality, and lower costs....


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## David (Mar 22, 2010)

canadas health care is good, if its like canadas then im fine with it


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

I just hope it'll be optional. Because there are those who have good insurance companies. I don't think the government needs to control EVERYONE and tell them which insurance company to use.


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## Sporge27 (Mar 22, 2010)

Bacon Boy said:
			
		

> I just hope it'll be optional. Because there are those who have good insurance companies. I don't think the government needs to control EVERYONE and tell them which insurance company to use.


I'm fairly certain that was in there... I haven't read the one they passed, honestly I stopped paying attention to it cause I couldn't see them ever getting it passed, so I'm pleasantly surprised.


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## David (Mar 22, 2010)

Bacon Boy said:
			
		

> I just hope it'll be optional. Because there are those who have good insurance companies. I don't think the government needs to control EVERYONE and tell them which insurance company to use.


i dont entirely know about canadas stuff, cause i cant be bothered all i know is that its free, which is good, cause some people need it if they have medical conditions


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## Khocol4te (Mar 22, 2010)

So having free health care is a bad thing now?


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

I can understand that, but there's that feeling of independence. When you're a kid, you need your parents there to help you along and get started. Then, as you get older, you leave on your own. Same thing with the government. If someone is in a childlike state of insurance or economic dismay then yes, then need their government.

BUT

There are those that are ready to be out on their own. They shouldn't be forced into staying at home relying on mommy government. 

Also, I'd want the government to pay for this. Not me. I don't want my taxes going towards the healthcare plan of some random person that is too lazy to do anything. If they CANT do anything, then they need someone to rely on. Fine. But why should they have to rely on my money that I need to get by with? This is going to backfire because people are going to stop paying taxes and call bankrupcy because they see they'll get through life with a free ticket to ride.


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## Matfox (Mar 22, 2010)

America: WE WANT HEALTH CARE! 
Obama: Here you go....
America: WE DONT WANT IT NOW! :S


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## Khocol4te (Mar 22, 2010)

You guys are all idiots.

Free health care is a good thing. Look at Sweden, they have free health care, and they start out buy paying for it during their lives.
Who would take care of you when you are older, and can't help yourself? Not your parents.
Paying for these taxes is used for assurance, that if anything happens to you, you would always be cared for.

You aren't paying for some random guy on the street who got hit by a bus. You are paying these taxes to support yourself, when you can't.


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## Tyeforce (Mar 22, 2010)

Matfox said:
			
		

> America: WE WANT HEALTH CARE!
> Obama: Here you go....
> America: WE DONT WANT IT NOW! :S


Lol, so true. Americans will complain about anything. >_>


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

Khocol4te said:
			
		

> You guys are all idiots.
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> Free health care is a good thing. Look at Sweden, they have free health care, and they start out buy paying for it during their lives.
> Who would take care of you when you are older, and can't help yourself? Not your parents.
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I'd rather be sick independent person than a healthy government reliant baby that cries when it needs something. I know plenty of old old people who are taking care of themselves instead of taking the retirement home program they were offered. They are very sick, but that started before denying the government's offer. They live in their own houses and do everything on their own.

The quote that was in the andy's tip of the day thread "free is *something*, but paying is satisfactory."

And don't generalize about Americans. Yes, we wanted healthcare reform. Did we want the government controlled one? I didn't anyways. Find in the constitution and tell me where it says the government has the right or needs to control healthcare.


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## Rawburt (Mar 22, 2010)

Tyeforce said:
			
		

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lolwut, way to generalize an entire nationality there.


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## Khocol4te (Mar 22, 2010)

If you don't like the way the country is going, then get the f_u_ck out.
The constitution doesn't say that you have to live in America either, does it?


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

Khocol4te said:
			
		

> If you don't like the way the country is going, then get the f_u_ck out.
> The constitution doesn't say that you have to live in America either, does it?


I wish we had the money to move. That'd be a dream come true.


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## Tyeforce (Mar 22, 2010)

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Hey, I'm American. Of course what I said doesn't apply to _all_ Americans. But with how people are reacting to this, it certainly makes it seem like the majority of them do.


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## Rawburt (Mar 22, 2010)

Khocol4te said:
			
		

> If you don't like the way the country is going, then get the f_u_ck out.
> The constitution doesn't say that you have to live in America either, does it?


Well, it's our right to have problems with the government and express them.

But I think people are overreacting about it, for the most part it won't have too much of an impact on our lives and it will really do some good in our country. 

@ Tye: I know there are lots of people like that here, but those kinds of people are in every nation everywhere, it's not exclusive to us.


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

Tyeforce said:
			
		

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But we do have a right to complain. A lot of people, save the democrats and Obamaniacs, didn't want the bill this way or at all. The government should listen to the people more.


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## Khocol4te (Mar 22, 2010)

You guys are all complaining about something that is *helping* the nation.
Cry more.


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## Tyeforce (Mar 22, 2010)

Rawburt said:
			
		

> @ Tye: I know there are lots of people like that here, but those kinds of people are in every nation everywhere, it's not exclusive to us.


Yes, but American has more of those kind of people than the other countries. =P


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## Tyeforce (Mar 22, 2010)

Bacon Boy said:
			
		

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The only people I've heard complain about the stupid thing are people who hate Obama. The only reason why they hate the bill is because Obama is president. If someone else was president who they liked, then it'd be A-OK to them. Ugh, people. >_>


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## Rawburt (Mar 22, 2010)

Khocol4te said:
			
		

> You guys are all complaining about something that is *helping* the nation.
> Cry more.


Wow, such hostility XD.

At Tye: Is there a study behind that, because I could see it being true and would actually might be interested in reading it.


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## Tyeforce (Mar 22, 2010)

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I'm sure there is somewhere. XD


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

Khocol4te said:
			
		

> You guys are all complaining about something that is *helping* the nation.
> Cry more.


Quit stating your opinion as fact. How is it already helping? The "president" won't sign it until Tuesday. I don't think it will help. 

Hell, it's a secret bill no one saw. We only got what they told us. It might just be a whole lie.


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## Tyeforce (Mar 22, 2010)

Bacon Boy said:
			
		

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How _isn't_ it helping?

And your little "president" in quotations just proves my point even more. XD


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## Rawburt (Mar 22, 2010)

Tyeforce said:
			
		

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So, this is just going by your observations?


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## Tyeforce (Mar 22, 2010)

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Wait, I'm confused now. Which post of mine were you referring to? lol


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

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I have a right to my opinions. You're one to talk about such things, Tye.

And Mr. Obamasavior supposed to have done a lot by now. That's what he said he'd do. Still waiting.

And it isn't helping by not being put into official effect yet. It's just there.


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## Rawburt (Mar 22, 2010)

Tyeforce said:
			
		

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You said "I'm sure there is somewhere" in response to "Is there a study?" so I thought you meant you've never seen or heard anything backing up there being more negative people in America than other nations.

It's not a big deal though, I just thought it'd make for an interesting read.


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## Khocol4te (Mar 22, 2010)

Bacon Boy said:
			
		

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So free health care isn't worth it? Everyone who can't pay should just suck a rooster and go die?

And I didn't say that it is already helping, but it will help.


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

Khocol4te said:
			
		

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Did I say that? No. I said people who need to go to "mommy" government should go. But it shouldn't be forced on everyone.


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## Sporge27 (Mar 22, 2010)

Bacon Boy said:
			
		

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Hey you know what, plenty of people are for health are reform, just as many as are against it.  People never seem to care about the view from the other side of the fence.  

I am for it because helping people is a good thing, and this reform can help people in their time of greatest need.  I don't care if it costs a little extra money from my pocket, but from other places with similar heath care it actually saves me money in the end.


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## Khocol4te (Mar 22, 2010)

Bacon Boy said:
			
		

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So you want to pay for your own hospital bill?
Well if you don't have enough money to get out of the country, good luck trying to get out of debt of the hospital.


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## Rawburt (Mar 22, 2010)

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You shouldn't insult people that can't pay for medical expenses, that's pretty low. =/


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

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But this makes people lazy. What's to stop someone from saying "hm... If I lose my money and can't afford insurance, I get it free! Bankrupcy!"

if you're going to pull in morality and ethics into it, the moral and ethical thing to do would to be independent. And like it was said on the news, they should be more focussed on the Job crisis, not the healthcare that could have been postponed for a while.


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## Sporge27 (Mar 22, 2010)

The health care won't be free.... but I think it is completely worth it.  It will help those in need and even could help others while not really harming those who already have heath care other than may be lowering their prices due to the competition...


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## Khocol4te (Mar 22, 2010)

Yeah, what if Nurse Joy made you have to pay 10,000 PG every time you wanted to heal your Pokemon? What if one day, all your Pokemon were fainted, and you were out of PG?
Would you just want her to say "Well you are sh_i_t out of luck."


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## Rawburt (Mar 22, 2010)

Sporge27 said:
			
		

> The health care won't be free.... but I think it is completely worth it.  It will help those in need and even could help others while not really harming those who already have heath care other than may be lowering their prices due to the competition...


Pretty much sums up my views on the whole matter.


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

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Ow the he'll did I do that? I was doing the quotes because it was a title and reference from an earlier post I made. It was that the government is like a parent to them. It helps them learn to walk. And from there, they run and go out on their own.

At k: hospital bills aren't as expensive as a new house. Besides, I have my own insurance for now.


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## Khocol4te (Mar 22, 2010)

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Your parents aren't an insurance.


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## Ricano (Mar 22, 2010)

Something happened exactly like this in the 1900's with a president. Can't remember the name but he believed the nation should have pride and be poor, then to be helped by the gov. It didnt help...


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## Khocol4te (Mar 22, 2010)

Sweden has free health care and it's fine.


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## Sporge27 (Mar 22, 2010)

I'm a bleeding heart.  I know some people are worried about people slacking and getting stuff for free.  Most of the time it isn't like that though.  Do you think people like being poor and don't try to make money?  Fact is some people don't know how to and we try to put in programs to help those people learn.  Much larger portion though is the group of people who know how to perform a job, but either cant get one because of where they live, or can't get it because of how they have to dress, or can't get it due to needing to take care of someone at home, or any number of things.  Will some people abuse the system?  Yes, but most won't and it is for those people I think this is important.

Health is one thing that just makes people poorer by no real fault of their own most of the time.  Its not fair to claim that someone struggling to pay the rent AND pay the bills for their sick and old father in the hospital doesn't deserve the same treatment as someone not struggling to pay it.  Most people who are poor are because of what they were born into, not because of a lack of work ethic.


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## Rawburt (Mar 22, 2010)

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The way you said made it seem like you were saying that people that can't afford it can't take care of themselves and have to "run to mommy". Which is not true, not everyone in the country has the luxury to afford everything they need or to have insurance.

Also saying that medical bills are less expensive than houses is not really a good comparison, houses are really expensive.


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

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I don't use my parents for innsurance. I have to do something called work which gives me money to pay for food and pay taxes and gass money. My parents only chip in with my insurance. Nice personal attack there. Next time try and say somethinfg intelligent before you go guessing.

Sporge: As is, the bill affects everyone's insurance. I don't know what they're doing about revisions though...


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

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I know. That's why I said medical bills are less expensive because k said that if I can't move, then I would have a hard time paying hospital bills. Not my comparison.

Are you even listening? I'm saying those that need government help or parent help in my analogy should get it. If they can't do something, then help them.


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## Khocol4te (Mar 22, 2010)

What is the average cost for a hospital bill?
The average price is $1,300, but this depends on many things, such as factors like if you have insurance or not, whether we're talking Emergency Room fees, surgery, so on and so forth. But generally, hospital bills are never cheap/affordable unless you live in a country that has free healthcare.

Not everyone in the country makes $1000. Why should you pay $1000, why not pay it in taxes in your earlier years?


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## Sporge27 (Mar 22, 2010)

Actually one good thing from making it universal is less paperwork, I was not looking forward to having to get it for myself....


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## Rawburt (Mar 22, 2010)

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Of course I'm listening, but you seem to not understand that the universal health care is a group effort. It cannot exist without everyone chipping in.


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

Khocol4te said:
			
		

> What is the average cost for a hospital bill?
> The average price is $1,300, but this depends on many things, such as factors like if you have insurance or not, whether we're talking Emergency Room fees, surgery, so on and so forth. But generally, hospital bills are never cheap/affordable unless you live in a country that has free healthcare.
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Because

(a. So far, the way the government has handled our money, frankly, SUCKS.

(b. How would I know it would go to me? It might go to someone else that might not need it. 

(c. When I give money to the poor or those who need it, I give it to them directly. I don't need someone else holding onto it. They may never give it to the poor.


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## Khocol4te (Mar 22, 2010)

Bacon Boy said:
			
		

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(a. No comment.

(b. It goes to everyone, and trust me, some day you WILL need it.

(c. It goes to everyone, thus you are giving it to the poor also. And it does go to the poor, as it goes to everyone.

AND EVERYONES MONEY GOES TO YOU.


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

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I would rather pay it up front. They're gonna tax me on it if I pay up front, but only once, maybe never if insurance covers it. Point being, if they want to helpthose that need it, help  them. But out of their own pocket. They're so concerned about us giving to the poor, yet, we're really the only ones doing it. Their wallets are only getting fatter.


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## Tyeforce (Mar 22, 2010)

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There are opinions, and then there's just plain ignorance. Sure, Obama hasn't done as much as other presidents. He's not the greatest president, there's no arguing there. But he's far from the worst. Not doing much isn't worse than *censored.3.0*ing the country over, as some presidents have done. Unfortunately, bias gets the best of people and they see it otherwise. If Obama was Republican, all the conservatives would be praising him. You know it's true, don't deny it. Now, I'm not trying to bash any conservatives here, but it's plain as day that most conservatives are extremely biased and won't have anything to do with the "OMG LEFT-WINGED LIBERAL SOCIALIST" side of things. Fox News just proves this so well. I watch people like Glenn Beck and Bill O'Reilly and I laugh my ass of at how incredibly ignorant and one-sided, as well as incorrect (especially in Glenn Beck's case), they are. It's sad that so many people watch these programs on Fox News and take everything they hear as if it's the Word of God.

Anyway, my point is that a lot of conservatives just don't see the truth in things. They only see what _they_ want to see. Now, I'm not saying that _all_ conservatives are like that, nor am I saying that no liberals are like that either. I just tends to be a more conservative thing, probably because the views of most liberals are usually much more logical than conservatives, who's views are based more heavily on Religion (which isn't a bad thing at all, except when it's distorted, skewed, and fed to the masses like what Fox News does), even if it goes against logic (which most of the time it won't, unless it's distorted as I said). Now, I myself am not Republican or Democratic. I'm Independent, and I think everyone should be. We shouldn't need parties to tell us what we believe. Anyway, although I'm not a Democrat, I usually agree with their views (not all the time, though), because they're typically the more logical side of things.

Okay, I think I've gone off on a tangent... I don't even know what subject I'm talking about anymore. XD And I have a feeling that I completely missed what I was trying to say in the first place... Whatever. XD


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## Tyeforce (Mar 22, 2010)

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I didn't think you were being serious, lol. I'm so confused here. XD


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## Khocol4te (Mar 22, 2010)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1135582/Man-pulls-13-teeth-pliers-NHS-dentist.html

This man couldn't find a dentist who would take him in, because he wasn't able to afford it.
Do you want to be this man?


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## Tyeforce (Mar 22, 2010)

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Haha. You think the American government actually _could_ give people money out of their own pockets?! Here's a little secret for you; THEY HAVE NO MONEY OF THEIR OWN! It's all borrowed money from China! THAT'S why taxing is necessary. Our government just doesn't have money, period. Yes, it's their fault for getting in that position to begin with, but you can't expect them to just magically become debt-free. It doesn't work like that. What, do you want them to print even MORE money, making our currency worth even LESS than it already is?!


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## Rawburt (Mar 22, 2010)

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I think that's a good point, a lot of people focus too much with siding with a party than actually taking time to actually look at an issue from both sides.


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

I wholeheartedly agree with you Tye, but regardless of Obama's party, I'd still dislike him and his ideas. I'm independent as well. And Fow Mews is okay sometimes. I don't watch Beck or O'Riley because, frankly, they annoy the hell out of me. I watch it for news. But wherever you go, there's going to some bias. CNN, MSNBC, etc. 

And Obama's not killing the country. This country went to the dogs during Bush's second term. Obama's just beating the dead horse and stabbing it.


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

I wholeheartedly agree with you Tye, but regardless of Obama's party, I'd still dislike him and his ideas. I'm independent as well. And Fow Mews is okay sometimes. I don't watch Beck or O'Riley because, frankly, they annoy the hell out of me. I watch it for news. But wherever you go, there's going to some bias. CNN, MSNBC, etc. 

And Obama's not killing the country. This country went to the dogs during Bush's second term. Obama's just beating the dead horse and stabbing it.


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## Khocol4te (Mar 22, 2010)

The government is by the people for the people.
You pay taxes to help your country's people.
The taxes you pay only fund certain things, and in this case, it will be funding doctors and hospitals for you.


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

And about the money thing. They do have money. How do you think they afford those houses. They have really expensive ones. The country is broke, si. But our government? Not so much. And taxing won't help much. If our dollar is losing value (inflation) then we're not helping too much anyways.


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## Khocol4te (Mar 22, 2010)

Bacon Boy said:
			
		

> And about the money thing. They do have money. How do you think they afford those houses. They have really expensive ones. The country is broke, si. But our government? Not so much. And taxing won't help much. If our dollar is losing value (inflation) then we're not helping too much anyways.


By paying taxes, it is taking the amount of dollars out of circulation, thus decreasing inflation.


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

Taking some out. But it's going to take a long time to pay China back. We owe them an increaingly large amount.


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## Khocol4te (Mar 22, 2010)

Blame Bush for the debt, not the Health Care taxes.


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## Ren Partycat (Mar 22, 2010)

Khocol4te said:
			
		

> Blame Bush for the debt, not the Health Care taxes.


Blame Republicans for everything, things get worse and worse every time we have one of those no good sons of *****es in our White House. I could provide a lot of events as examples, but no, I'm too lazy. Cmon, you know it's true. No offence to those of you who support republicans.


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

DarkPwnz0rX said:
			
		

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Yes, and Clinton was such a wonderful president. >.>


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## Sporge27 (Mar 22, 2010)

Quite honestly aside from a lot of people being angry with this, I think it will subside when it actually takes affect, because I think it will work out fine.  Some things work well under government control and something like insurance that works on pooling a large group of people's money is something that works great in government control, after all then you are pooling an entire nation.  I haven't heard any complaints about the post office recently


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## David (Mar 22, 2010)

theres no way im reading all of that, i stopped at page 5,  cant be bothered to read more, but yeah, isee where poeple from both sides are coming from, frees good but that means government controlled things. i like it here in canada, you pick where you wanna see your doctor. unfortunately i may end up moving to the american wasteland in about 10 years.


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## Sporge27 (Mar 22, 2010)

Bacon Boy said:
			
		

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Well he did lower the debt....

And really it is only the new republican mindset... since Reagan inverted the political polarity...  My bfs grandparents were voting republican for the very values that are really considered liberal.... and just not realizing that that was the democratic party now...


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

David said:
			
		

> theres no way im reading all of that, i stopped at page 5,  cant be bothered to read more, but yeah, isee where poeple from both sides are coming from, frees good but that means government controlled things. i like it here in canada, you pick where you wanna see your doctor. unfortunately i may end up moving to the american wasteland in about 10 years.


By then I might be back home. 

I think we're just losing "The Land of the Free" motto.


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## Ren Partycat (Mar 22, 2010)

ITT: We spaz out everywhere like ragdolls while yelling at each other about politics, using massive walls of text and quote pyramids.

I think I should either go to bed or get offa this topic. 3:44 AM, no way I'm gonna read my ass off for an extra 1/10 of an IQ Point.


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## David (Mar 22, 2010)

Bacon Boy said:
			
		

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wheres back home?


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## Khocol4te (Mar 22, 2010)

I gained 0 IQ Points here. ITT: Fifteen year olds debate at one another about health care.


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

Sporge27 said:
			
		

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and bush struck first against the terrorists.

Every president has his accomplishments, but they all have their faults. Nobody's perfect.


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

David said:
			
		

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Italy. Or I might move to my father's country, Latvia. Someway or another, I'm going to both.


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## Khocol4te (Mar 22, 2010)

Bacon Boy said:
			
		

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What if 9/11 was faked and Bush went in only to restart was his father did, and also to go in there for oil?


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## Tyeforce (Mar 22, 2010)

Bacon Boy said:
			
		

> and bush struck first against the terrorists.


lol


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## Sporge27 (Mar 22, 2010)

Wait aside from a sex scandal... I can't think of anything that bad from Clinton.... he was  a pretty moderate guy.  I mean with Bush all his greatest "pros" are often seen as "cons" by others, after all I didn't agree with that war, but since we got into it we have to tie up the loose ends now... I mean really by going to war there we did reinforce some of their views of our culture trying to control the world and actually made more terrorists...


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## David (Mar 22, 2010)

Khocol4te said:
			
		

> I gained 0 IQ Points here. ITT: Fifteen year olds debate at one another about health care.


your 14/15 shut up


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## Rawburt (Mar 22, 2010)

Now we're gonna debate on conspiracy theories? Olawd.


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

Khocol4te said:
			
		

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Just like the holocaust was faked and millions just vanished?

Get real. Thousands died. I should know. They didn't just stage it


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## Khocol4te (Mar 22, 2010)

Bacon Boy said:
			
		

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It could have been set up by the government to cover up something.


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## Khocol4te (Mar 22, 2010)

David said:
			
		

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Yes, I am fifteen.
So what?


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

Khocol4te said:
			
		

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And you've completely lost any inkling of respect for debating maturely and intelligently.


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## Khocol4te (Mar 22, 2010)

Bacon Boy said:
			
		

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Cool.


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## David (Mar 22, 2010)

Khocol4te said:
			
		

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shut up then.


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## Khocol4te (Mar 22, 2010)

David said:
			
		

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And you are only 16? Cool, you are only 1 year older than me.
A year difference doesn't give you the right to boss me around.

And upon reading your other posts, you are a non-english troll.
And if your native language is English, then I weep for you.


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## Ren Partycat (Mar 22, 2010)

Khocol4te said:
			
		

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That's true, and I agree with you Chocolate, bro. Hell, I'm 14 and I'm Mature. I'm also getting really tall. Besides that, I have a deep voice for my age. People ask if I'm 15, 16 or 17. I wouldn't be surprised if I can sneak into an R Rated movie in several months or a year. And David isn't a troll, he's an ignorant, incompetent 16 year old Newfag/Pubfag/Smartass. One final thing: Chocolate would know that 15 year olds debate about crap if he is one, which he is. He would also have to read the majority of the posts here, which he did, and he obviously has common sense. (If you wanna hear my voice, you can PM me and we'll talk over Skype.)


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## David (Mar 22, 2010)

Khocol4te said:
			
		

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a lot happens between 15 and 16. 

and my native language is Na


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## David (Mar 22, 2010)

DarkPwnz0rX said:
			
		

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"Newfag/Pubfag" using those proves you lie about your maturity


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## Sporge27 (Mar 22, 2010)

age =/= maturity...  ummm maturity == maturity...  though age does significantly correlate with maturity forming  a bias against the young...  

But anyway lets stop this cause it is off topic of the thread....


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

DarkPwnz0rX said:
			
		

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I always knew you were annoying. And the two posts in this thread showed you to be more ignorant than David. "republican bastards" I believe it was? Then you had to go act like you're all high and mighty. I don't give a *censored.2.0* how old you are. You're still acting like an idiot.


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## Tyeforce (Mar 22, 2010)

David said:
			
		

> and my native language is Na


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## Sporge27 (Mar 22, 2010)

Uh wow, I am actually considering locking this thread due to no useful conversation any more, give me a reason not to.  I hate locking threads...


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## David (Mar 22, 2010)

Sporge27 said:
			
		

> Uh wow, I am actually considering locking this thread due to no useful conversation any more, give me a reason not to.  I hate locking threads...


we're going back on topic now


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

I was ready for sporgy to lock it after k went all idiotic. This topic is done.


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## David (Mar 22, 2010)

and this.... this is... PANDORA

in b4 lock


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## Sporge27 (Mar 22, 2010)

sigh.... I hate inb4 locks...


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

Giiiiiiigaaaaaaa Drrrrrriiiiiiilllllll!

Okay, so the other aspect: abortion. Discuss.


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## David (Mar 22, 2010)

omg abortion is bad, people should just have their babies and put em up for adoption if they really hate it. not kill it.


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## Ren Partycat (Mar 22, 2010)

You're just as silly and ignorant as ever, Bacon Boy.

We can all have are own opinions as long as we back it up with reason. Apparently I didn't, whoop de fackin do. If you know anything about my posts, you would know that no matter how much I rant, I do my best to back it up with reason.

The point of this thread was to discuss the bill, and now we're debating, trolling, and acting like total tarts cept for sporge and one or two others. Other than that, it's almost everyone including me. Can't we all just get along? Sheesh, off topic mountains. I was interested in this topic until we became bast@rd Nazis.


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## Khocol4te (Mar 22, 2010)

What if their condom broke and they couldn't afford to have a baby, or pay for the hospital bills of giving birth:

Uncomplicated vag. delivery with epidural is $5000.00-7000.00

C-sections avg. $10,000.00- $15,000.00

Circumcision $400.00 avg.

Or the mother is in a condition that would cause complications?


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## Sporge27 (Mar 22, 2010)

Abortion is needed in some scenarios to save the mother, and if you claim all life is sacred and not to be destroyed then stop eating animals and plants cause they are just as living as an embryo at the times abortions are allowed.  Life is to be respected, but must sometimes be altered, or even stopped.  What I am saying is that abortions in themselves are not evil and so should be covered, but those who use an abortion as their crutch and keep getting them not learning their lesson are in the wrong here.  If a girl screws up once and is truly sorry for her actions though, I think she can be forgiven.


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## David (Mar 22, 2010)

DarkPwnz0rX said:
			
		

> You're just as silly and ignorant as ever, Bacon Boy.
> 
> We can all have are own opinions as long as we back it up with reason. Apparently I didn't, whoop de fackin do. If you know anything about my posts, you would know that no matter how much I rant, I do my best to back it up with reason.
> 
> The point of this thread was to discuss the bill, and now we're debating, trolling, and acting like total tarts cept for sporge and David. Other than that, it's almost everyone including me. Can't we all just get along? Sheesh, off topic mountains. I was interested in this topic until we became bast@rd Nazis.


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## David (Mar 22, 2010)

Khocol4te said:
			
		

> What if their condom broke and they couldn't afford to have a baby, or pay for the hospital bills of giving birth:
> 
> Uncomplicated vag. delivery with epidural is $5000.00-7000.00
> 
> ...


they shouldnt be having sex in the first place. unless theyre married. abortions shouldnt even be an option,. UNLESS the mother is gonna die and theres no way else to save her


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## Ren Partycat (Mar 22, 2010)

No way man. That there is self centered. I'm admitting I acted like a fool at some point, you should too.

It only proves you don't have the balls to get in Truth's face and yell: FACK YOU. In the end, I only want peace and on-topic topics. I'm out. But don't think this means you've won, oh no. Let the fates decide.


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## David (Mar 22, 2010)

DarkPwnz0rX said:
			
		

> No way man. That there is self centered. I'm admitting I acted like a fool at some point, you should too.
> 
> It only proves you don't have the balls to get in Truth's face and yell: FACK YOU. In the end, I only want peace and on-topic topics. I'm out. But don't think this means you've won, oh no. Let the fates decide.


huh?


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## Tyeforce (Mar 22, 2010)

David said:
			
		

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Or gay. ;D

Homosexuality: 100% effective birth control

XD


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

Problem with abortion is it comes back to haunt sometmes. My friend had one and thought nothing of it, but now, almost every night, she has nightmares about it. In my eyes it's wrong, not just because the sanctity of life, but the fact that that baby could have been someone special or could have made a big difference in the world.


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## Sporge27 (Mar 22, 2010)

Bacon Boy said:
			
		

> Problem with abortion is it comes back to haunt sometmes. My friend had one and thought nothing of it, but now, almost every night, she has nightmares about it. In my eyes it's wrong, not just because the sanctity of life, but the fact that that baby could have been someone special or could have made a big difference in the world.


But by this logic every day you don't have sex and make a baby is preventing someone from being grown.  I mean a sperm is half a cell and has the potential to be a human if you give it the chance....  and above trillions are lost daily....

Really many things could have been, but we are incapable for caring for every child we could possibly have.

_Sorry, I put some in the quote somehow..._


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

Sporge27 said:
			
		

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Where'd that part of my quote come from! And you're right, they do have the potential. But sperm cells and egg cells don't really affect the rest of the body. They're made seperately and they only copy the DNA. 

It all matters on how and when you have sex. Abortion, for some, is used as a scapegoat for teenagers. The best birth control is not having sex.


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## David (Mar 22, 2010)

Bacon Boy said:
			
		

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what about jerkin off? is that considered abortion?


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## Rawburt (Mar 22, 2010)

How did this abortion topic come up? o-O


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

Rawburt said:
			
		

> How did this abortion topic come up? o-O


It's part of the healthcare bill


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## Sporge27 (Mar 22, 2010)

Bacon Boy said:
			
		

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yes I know I fixed it  I don't know how I stuck that in there on accident.

Not having sex does prevent babies, true, but really this leaves you sexually immature all the way until you want a baby.  Sex can a good thing in you life.  You need someone you trust and are attracted to who feels the same about you.  It reduces stress gives health benefits, and boosts self esteem.  Then come in condoms but those don't always work and you make worse decisions when you want sex, leading many a guy to convince a girl not to use one.  Sex is complicated.  Repressing it can really hurt your development.  _aka I had more but don't want to get into detail here, my bf is kinda well read on this topic because it was the area of his favorite teacher at his school._


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

Sporge27 said:
			
		

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coughmastirbationcough


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## Tyeforce (Mar 22, 2010)

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Mast*u*rbation isn't the same as sex, lol. Sex is a bonding between two people, and is sooooooo much better than masturbation. XD Masturbation can be helpful when you need it, but it's not a replacement for sex. And yes, the two can still coexist. XD


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

I see your point, but it's always good to wait.


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## Sporge27 (Mar 22, 2010)

Yes there is masturbation, but really not as satisfying, and I personally think it would be awful to get to the wedding night and find out you really stink at it...  point being just be careful when dealing with it.  Really everything in relationships are hard, because relationships are fragile.  

Point being sex is hard to control, I think it is unreasonable to expect abstinence, that needs to be a personal choice, and an abortion can be a second chance for someone who really may need it.  I just don't see human life until there is real thought processing going on in the head.  Really there are also situations such as rape where an abortion really makes sense, after all do you want a child who reminds you of that awful person?


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## Tyeforce (Mar 22, 2010)

Bacon Boy said:
			
		

> I see your point, but it's always good to wait.


Not really. Straight couples just need to learn to use protection, and there wouldn't be any problems. <small>I'm so glad I don't have to. ;D</small> As long as you're in a committed relationship, sex is a wonderful extension of your relationship.


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## Sporge27 (Mar 22, 2010)

Tyeforce said:
			
		

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 :throwingrottenapples: you still need to know about protection!  DISEASES!!!  REMEMBER THE AWFUL PICTURES FROM HEALTH CLASS!!!


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## Tyeforce (Mar 22, 2010)

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Are you suggesting that Andrew and/or I have STDs?! D:< XD


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## Sporge27 (Mar 22, 2010)

Tyeforce said:
			
		

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I don't know you IRL soooo I'm saying its a possibility  :veryhappy: 

But yeah the way I see it the more open people are about sex, the more likely people will be safe about it, well that and the availability of protection.  honestly in some areas you feel just dirty getting something like condoms simply from how some people you don't even know judge you.... then again sometimes they respect you more for being responsible...


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## lilypad (Mar 22, 2010)

Darn. I was hoping I wouldn't miss this debate ... all well. 

Anyways, the main reason I am for this health care bill is because my brother has type one diabetes (NOT the kind you get from being fat -_-). Once my brother is no longer covered by my parents insurance when he is an adult, there is no way in hell he is ever going to get covered by an insurance company because of his preexisting disease unless he gets a job with a huge corporation or he works for the hospital. Is that really right? Honestly. Do you know much it costs without insurance just for a month to keep my brother healthy and alive? it's ridiculous and not right for insurance companies to do that to people, everyone deserves the right to get health care.


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## Jeremy (Mar 22, 2010)

Health care prices began increasing when government started its intervention about half a century ago.  Health care is now two thirds government.  Why should more government intervention help?  History shows us the opposite.


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## Tyeforce (Mar 22, 2010)

Jeremy said:
			
		

> Health care prices began increasing when government started its intervention about half a century ago.  Health care is now two thirds government.  Why should more government intervention help?  History shows us the opposite.


Why wouldn't it? Take situations like lilypad's brother's, for example.


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## Jeremy (Mar 22, 2010)

Free markets provide for what people want.  It's supply in demand.  But insurance is heavily regulated by government.  There is no market and it is not a real economy.  The REASON health care is expensive is BECAUSE of government.  People who support the bill unfortunately have it backwards.  I can only tell you this now and warn you that the country's health care problem will not be solved.  Government cannot run anything right.  Not medicaid, medicare, the military, schools, the post office, the DMV, etc.  It also cannot run health care and this is going to be very bad for people in these situations.  It will be bad for all of us because we all need health care and the government is simply taking our money and spending it in a very inefficient way.  The reason why government can't do anything right is because it is a violent monopoly.  It avoids market competition.


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## JasonBurrows (Mar 22, 2010)

Jeremy said:
			
		

> Free markets provide for what people want.  It's supply in demand.  But insurance is heavily regulated by government.  There is no market and it is not a real economy.  The REASON health care is expensive is BECAUSE of government.  People who support the bill unfortunately have it backwards.  I can only tell you this now and warn you that the country's health care problem will not be solved.  Government cannot run anything right.  Not medicaid, medicare, the military, schools, the post office, the DMV, etc.  It also cannot run health care and this is going to be very bad for people in these situations.  It will be bad for all of us because we all need health care and the government is simply taking our money and spending it in a very inefficient way.  The reason why government can't do anything right is because it is a violent monopoly.  That simply does not work.


Agreed! ^

They more or less do the same here in the UK.


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## Pear (Mar 22, 2010)

Jeremy said:
			
		

> Free markets provide for what people want.  It's supply in demand.  But insurance is heavily regulated by government.  There is no market and it is not a real economy.  The REASON health care is expensive is BECAUSE of government.  People who support the bill unfortunately have it backwards.  I can only tell you this now and warn you that the country's health care problem will not be solved.  Government cannot run anything right.  Not medicaid, medicare, the military, schools, the post office, the DMV, etc.  It also cannot run health care and this is going to be very bad for people in these situations.  It will be bad for all of us because we all need health care and the government is simply taking our money and spending it in a very inefficient way.  The reason why government can't do anything right is because it is a violent monopoly.  It avoids market competition.


The United States spends 25 cents out of every dollar on administrative costs for Health care. Other countries spend 12 cents, and it's _because_ of the government. The government is elected by the people, for the people, and should not make a profit. We are 45th in quality of care worldwide, but we pay the most for it. The free market isn't always the answer, especially when insurance companies are so monopolistic. That's why we should leave the dark ages, and join every other rich nation in providing universal health care coverage.


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## Jeremy (Mar 22, 2010)

Khocol4te said:
			
		

> You guys are all idiots.
> 
> Free health care is a good thing. Look at Sweden, they have free health care, and they start out buy paying for it during their lives.
> Who would take care of you when you are older, and can't help yourself? Not your parents.
> ...


Sweden is a good example.  They have tried government ran health care, but that didn't work.  They have been privatizing it.  This means better health care for people.

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/179/2/129

http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA555_Sweden_Health_Care.html

Nothing is free by the way.  And the government tried doing what you said.  It's called medicare.  Like I said in my post above, government cannot run anything right.  That is why they stole medicare money and used it on other government programs.  Now the country is bankrupt.  Now people won't be getting the money that they put in for themselves.  Why do we trust government?  



> Jeremy said:
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Health care in the US is two thirds government.  That's one of the reasons it is expensive.  There has not been a free market in health care for a very long time.  When there was a free market, we did not have these problems.  There is no price competition when it is distributed by employers and then insurance companies.  And who was responsible for enforcing this system?  Government.

edit - Monopolies don't exist in free markets.  They can only exist with government support.  So if you are worried about monopolies, don't support government intervention.


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## Sporge27 (Mar 22, 2010)

Woah, monopolies exist because of government support?  Go tell that to the industrial revolution era, you know where the rich owned sweat shops where kids had to work to eat.  I don't think the government really supported them so much as allowed them at the time.  Now a days it takes years to bring down a monopoly because of how tied up they can make the courts.  

And right now our country is paying more for worse health care than many nations that do have universal health care.  How on earth can you explain that?  And from those Swedish articles I can't make anything bad out of it other than waiting lists, and you know what, that is bound to happen when everyone is able to get into a hospital.  I however can not stand it when people point that out because all that means is we don't get waiting lists because we let our poor just die and suffer!  

Honestly you found those articles on Sweden from entirely biased sources.  If you can find something about how Sweden's health care is doing worse than ours is since we have less government then I'll believe you.  Oh wait our health care is doing worse than Sweden is!  That is a fact, they have higher life expectancy, lower infant mortality, and they still pay less per person.  All these cries about how this will be the countries undoing honestly just annoy me because it is not the end and in fact can be a very good thing in the end.


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## Entei Slider (Mar 22, 2010)

Well
1.Its good for ME, because since I have a pre-existing health problem I can get insurance when I wouldnt have been able to
like this quote


> Once my brother is no longer covered by my parents insurance when he is an adult, there is no way in hell he is ever going to get covered by an insurance company because of his preexisting disease.


on the other hand...
2.The economy is screwed :/


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## Jeremy (Mar 22, 2010)

Sporge27 said:
			
		

> Woah, monopolies exist because of government support?  Go tell that to the industrial revolution era, you know where the rich owned sweat shops where kids had to work to eat.  I don't think the government really supported them so much as allowed them at the time.  Now a days it takes years to bring down a monopoly because of how tied up they can make the courts.
> 
> And right now our country is paying more for worse health care than many nations that do have universal health care.  How on earth can you explain that?  And from those Swedish articles I can't make anything bad out of it other than waiting lists, and you know what, that is bound to happen when everyone is able to get into a hospital.  I however can not stand it when people point that out because all that means is we don't get waiting lists because we let our poor just die and suffer!
> 
> Honestly you found those articles on Sweden from entirely biased sources.  If you can find something about how Sweden's health care is doing worse than ours is since we have less government then I'll believe you.  Oh wait our health care is doing worse than Sweden is!  That is a fact, they have higher life expectancy, lower infant mortality, and they still pay less per person.  All these cries about how this will be the countries undoing honestly just annoy me because it is not the end and in fact can be a very good thing in the end.


Only temporary monopolies can exist in a free market.  There is no evidence of an actual monopoly existing in a free market.  This is because there is always an opportunity for another business to offer the product at a better price.  Competition decreases prices and increase quality.  Governments discourage competition with regulations.  Therefore, government intervention allows for monopolies to exist.  There are monopolies in the health care industry because the government has been heavily involved in health care.

Many countries have horrible health care.  In some, you have a lower cost but it's impossible to to ACTUALLY get health care.  It is essentially being rationed.  It also doesn't make sense to compare other countries to ours because the government intervenes in both instances, just in different ways.  And is an article biased because you don't agree with it?

Anyway, this is going to answer some of the things you said in your last paragraph and it address many of the things people have brought up here.

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					<param name='loop' value='true' /><param name='quality' value='high' /></object>
Part 2:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpsEAVbCkMM
Part 3:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=refrYKq9tZQ
Part 4:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhiG0dcwN8
Part 5:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xsp_Jh5EIT0
Part 6:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_KCLm9cekU

More videos:
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					<param name='loop' value='true' /><param name='quality' value='high' /></object>
<object type='application/x-shockwave-flash' width="250" height="250" data='http://www.youtube.com/v/3E29LD98ruo'>
					<param name='AllowScriptAccess' value='never' />
					<param name='wmode' value='transparent' />
					<param name='movie' value='http://www.youtube.com/v/3E29LD98ruo' /><param name='play' value='true' />
					<param name='loop' value='true' /><param name='quality' value='high' /></object>
<object type='application/x-shockwave-flash' width="250" height="250" data='http://www.youtube.com/v/QPh85FsOkpc'>
					<param name='AllowScriptAccess' value='never' />
					<param name='wmode' value='transparent' />
					<param name='movie' value='http://www.youtube.com/v/QPh85FsOkpc' /><param name='play' value='true' />
					<param name='loop' value='true' /><param name='quality' value='high' /></object> - more stossel (may be above)
http://www.youtube.com/v/3WnS96NVlMI
<object type='application/x-shockwave-flash' width="250" height="250" data='http://www.youtube.com/v/jadstGm-foY'>
					<param name='AllowScriptAccess' value='never' />
					<param name='wmode' value='transparent' />
					<param name='movie' value='http://www.youtube.com/v/jadstGm-foY' /><param name='play' value='true' />
					<param name='loop' value='true' /><param name='quality' value='high' /></object>
<object type='application/x-shockwave-flash' width="250" height="250" data='http://www.youtube.com/v/-kcd5Bi6KzY'>
					<param name='AllowScriptAccess' value='never' />
					<param name='wmode' value='transparent' />
					<param name='movie' value='http://www.youtube.com/v/-kcd5Bi6KzY' /><param name='play' value='true' />
					<param name='loop' value='true' /><param name='quality' value='high' /></object>
<object type='application/x-shockwave-flash' width="250" height="250" data='http://www.youtube.com/v/M-2I41TGyEw'>
					<param name='AllowScriptAccess' value='never' />
					<param name='wmode' value='transparent' />
					<param name='movie' value='http://www.youtube.com/v/M-2I41TGyEw' /><param name='play' value='true' />
					<param name='loop' value='true' /><param name='quality' value='high' /></object>
<object type='application/x-shockwave-flash' width="250" height="250" data='http://www.youtube.com/v/_3oY0rbvsR4'>
					<param name='AllowScriptAccess' value='never' />
					<param name='wmode' value='transparent' />
					<param name='movie' value='http://www.youtube.com/v/_3oY0rbvsR4' /><param name='play' value='true' />
					<param name='loop' value='true' /><param name='quality' value='high' /></object> - Dr. Lawson
<object type='application/x-shockwave-flash' width="250" height="250" data='http://www.youtube.com/v/foXQbmZxWYY'>
					<param name='AllowScriptAccess' value='never' />
					<param name='wmode' value='transparent' />
					<param name='movie' value='http://www.youtube.com/v/foXQbmZxWYY' /><param name='play' value='true' />
					<param name='loop' value='true' /><param name='quality' value='high' /></object> - Dr. Paul
<object type='application/x-shockwave-flash' width="250" height="250" data='http://www.youtube.com/v/PbOQE8hsQpo'>
					<param name='AllowScriptAccess' value='never' />
					<param name='wmode' value='transparent' />
					<param name='movie' value='http://www.youtube.com/v/PbOQE8hsQpo' /><param name='play' value='true' />
					<param name='loop' value='true' /><param name='quality' value='high' /></object> - Dr. Paul last night
Really old video on monopolies:
<object type='application/x-shockwave-flash' width="250" height="250" data='http://www.youtube.com/v/8C4gRRk2i-M'>
					<param name='AllowScriptAccess' value='never' />
					<param name='wmode' value='transparent' />
					<param name='movie' value='http://www.youtube.com/v/8C4gRRk2i-M' /><param name='play' value='true' />
					<param name='loop' value='true' /><param name='quality' value='high' /></object>

Some Articles: 
http://reason.com/blog/2010/03/21/health-care-reform-passes-but
http://mises.org/story/1133
http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/tag/health/
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard201.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/napolitano/napolitano16.1.html

Helpful literature:
http://mises.org/literature.aspx


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## Nixie (Mar 22, 2010)

:/ Maybe the "Sweden has a better life expectancy" thing isn't entirely due to healthcare provided by the country?


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## Ciaran (Mar 22, 2010)

You people, arguing...

When someone gives me something for free I say 'thank you' I dont shout and moan, and if its not something I want, I say 'No, thank you' and I continue the way I was...

If you really want, I doubt the hospitals will stop you paying extra after you've already goten your free operation... Or maybe you should all just take better care of your bodies and not cry when you, God forbid, have to pay for your own triple bypasses (that doesnt apply to every case, though)


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## Jeremy (Mar 22, 2010)

Ciaran said:
			
		

> You people, arguing...
> 
> When someone gives me something for free I say 'thank you' I dont shout and moan, and if its not something I want, I say 'No, thank you' and I continue the way I was...
> 
> If you really want, I doubt the hospitals will stop you paying extra after you've already goten your free operation... Or maybe you should all just take better care of your bodies and not cry when you, God forbid, have to pay for your own triple bypasses (that doesnt apply to every case, though)


I don't get it... what's free?  Who's giving what for free?


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## Lokker Gattez (Mar 22, 2010)

Ciaran said:
			
		

> You people, arguing...
> 
> When someone gives me something for free I say 'thank you' I dont shout and moan, and if its not something I want, I say 'No, thank you' and I continue the way I was...
> 
> If you really want, I doubt the hospitals will stop you paying extra after you've already goten your free operation... Or maybe you should all just take better care of your bodies and not cry when you, God forbid, have to pay for your own triple bypasses (that doesnt apply to every case, though)


If you like following semi-relevant BS like that Michael Moore Documentary: Sicko. It makes sense that people are hoping to get Health Care that's not tied down to excessive financial... This is a waste of Brain cells and my vocabulary. I live in Canada, and the Health Care system is great, but some places are so blocked up with patients, you could die waiting to be treated (unless your condition worsens and gets you more immediate attention). I may not know the basic info of this subject, but I can say with a little confidence that you better pray that this Bill doesn't turn the hospitals into a Bottleneck... except the cars stuck in the same spot for hours are replaced with patients. I still have a random thought, floating around my mental space. It's the same thought that wouldn't leave when people started ripping on Obama: Is he a President, or the guy that'll make the next dude/ette look better by comparison? No offense, but the way people have been pissing and moaning has mad that thought turn into the dirch on my shoulder.


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## KaEyes (Mar 22, 2010)

This also boils down to the fact the the Federal Gov't should not be meddling in such things to Begin with!  They have no jurisdiction according to the constitution, the Gov't (should) have a VERY limited job, and stick to that.

And nothing that comes from Gov't is "free" anyway.  Where does the money come from? hmmmmm geeee.. Us!  Or they just print more money or borrow more from other countries... how is this a way to run a home, let ALONE a country!?

Before Gov't Meddling... doctors and patients could work something out between them and come to an agreement.. OR churches or other private charities could aid those in need of medical attn.

Now it's just a huge mess, and get worse the more they try to "help".


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## Sporge27 (Mar 22, 2010)

Nixie said:
			
		

> :/ Maybe the "Sweden has a better life expectancy" thing isn't entirely due to healthcare provided by the country?


This is actually a smart question, though one very hard to find an answer too, but thus far the general measure of health care is infant mortality, and life expectancy.  It could be due to better doctors, or technology, but that info would normally be shared, and besides a huge part of it is that more people see doctors more frequently, preventing the need to go to the hospital for worse conditions later.


Now anyway the article I read is not biased because it disagrees with me, it is biased because it says absolutely nothing positive despite there being some, and it fails to show any sort of a marker to judge what many of the financial numbers really mean and how they compare to others, and over all just has the same rhetoric I've already heard re wrapped in a "See it didn't work here" shell, when they are still better off then we are.

And to say there would be no monopolies without government is entirely false.  If a company is able to control all stages of production of its materials, products, and grows large enough it is able to buy out all competition or to simply keep prices low enough so as to destroy any chance of smaller businesses in the same field from surviving.  It happens all the time, because people don't act on a monopoly as long as they are offering the cheapest and best products, but after a while they start to jack things up, or cut wages down.  This is what happens in a free market, the rich can get richer, while the poor get poorer, and that is the main fault in a completely free market.  If you have enough money you can control an entire market very easily.

My boyfriend who has insurance, just last semester fell and thought he broke his ankle.  His schools health office was not legally able to help that case for some reason and he got sent to the ER.  He did not have his insurance card on him at the time, the result?  He had to wait behind everyone who came in with insurance on them.  His parents were bringing his card, but he got stuck waiting for hours to get seen just because he couldn't prove it at the time.  He was at the gym!  He just didn't have his wallet with him at the time, but because of this and apparently know way to tell he got stuck a ton longer at the hospital than he should have.

I am not saying health care will be free, but I am saying it will be cheaper, and for that matter getting seen by a doctor in an emergency will be quicker.  The whole thing about waiting lists, well I'm sorry you won't be able to just buy your way in first, but I don't think one man's life should really be valued above another's because of the size of his wallet. I don't know  if universal health care will cause these waiting lists here, but really the other option is to just let some go untreated entirely, and I find that wrong.


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## Ciaran (Mar 22, 2010)

Jeremy said:
			
		

> Ciaran said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Isnt this bill supposed to be giving free healthcare?


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

And also, another thing we're disregarding here, is that the majority of the American people did not want this bill. And instead of the people telling the government what to do, which is what should happen for it is "for the people", the government is telling US what to do.


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## KaEyes (Mar 22, 2010)

Bacon Boy said:
			
		

> And also, another thing we're disregarding here, is that the majority of the American people did not want this bill. And instead of the people telling the government what to do, which is what should happen for it is "for the people", the government is telling US what to do.


+1


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## Ciaran (Mar 22, 2010)

I actually can't believe people really care...
Go preform your own surgery then, see how that works out...


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## Numner (Mar 22, 2010)

Hey doctors and small busisness owners,  the government says *censored.3.0* you.


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## Jeremy (Mar 22, 2010)

I know my last post would take up a lot of time to watch through, but I do suggest looking at some of the videos if you are interested (for both topics - monopolies and health care).  There are many sad stories about people who need health care and don't have access to it.  This is a very serious issue, but it is not an argument that supports government intervention in the system.  I have used the stories to support the opposite side.  We both know that health care is too expensive, but the real question is why?  I think if we look back at history we can see that it is because of government manipulations in the market.  There is no longer a doctor to patient relationship and there is no price/quality shopping.  This naturally makes price and quality go down.  In the example you used- if this was before government propped up the insurance companies, he would be able to receive care without going through another company (insurance company).  This kind of relationship between doctor and patient is almost nonexistent today.  Waiting lists are also a natural effect- that's just supply and demand.

As far as monopolies go, this is a different topic (and much less discussed in the mainstream) so I don't want to get too carried away on the subject.  But like I said above there is no proof that a monopoly has existed or can exist in a free market.  You can't assume the company can buy up all of it's competition because even large companies have limits.  After the price gets too high, there will be higher demand for the same product at a lower price.  When there is high demand for something, other businesses can compete and the increased supply decreases the price.  As a consumers we are more likely to buy the cheapest and highest quality product.  The company with high prices will have to decrease their prices.  Simply buying out all competition isn't possible.  How much money can you offer to a company that is more appealing to consumers (and therefore a better company)?  How many people can you buy out, the entire world?  I know that Keynsian economics doesn't teach this.  But my argument is that Keynsian economics is wrong and I think the recent economic collapse is proof of this.  Government laws prevent businesses from forming (or at least make it more difficult).  That's why they help create monopolies.  


> I actually can't believe people really care...
> Go preform your own surgery then, see how that works out...


You don't see why people care about staying alive?  <_<


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## Sporge27 (Mar 22, 2010)

Bacon Boy said:
			
		

> And also, another thing we're disregarding here, is that the majority of the American people did not want this bill. And instead of the people telling the government what to do, which is what should happen for it is "for the people", the government is telling US what to do.


Most people did want some kind of reform!  In fact many are upset with this one because it hasn't gone far enough, but when you have an entire party who just absolutely refuses to let the other get anything done it is kind of difficult.  I can't stand the polls that simply ask whether you agree with the current bill or not because it makes it appear as if most don't want any reform at all, and that is not true.  Numbers can fool you, and more importantly many people don't know what to do.  The people voting in these polls are the ones extremely polarized about it.  

I do love Colbert's semi-recent episode on numbers in polls.  

"Do you think this unscientific poll is scientific?" Most said they did, cause that is what is expected of the people who watch Colbert!  Same with most polls.

Why else would a party get into office on a platform that was fairly focused on health care...  and I really don't see myself changing my mind, nor do I see myself changing the minds of the people I'm actually arguing with.  Fact is this country is still polarized and will probably stay that way because different people see different solutions to problems, different problems, and different hurdles in the way at any given time.  Then we selectively choose the ones that proved correct from our guesses to prove to ourselves that we know what we are talking about when we don't know jack.  There is the country in a nutshell no one really knows what will happen but likes to think they do, and so start taking it as a personal attack when disagreed with.  I know I do it too.  

All I know is I wanted universal health care to pass, because we are the last industrialized nation that hasn't and are only just above Cuba in rankings.  That and I was happy that my Mom can stop worrying about me getting my own health insurance at least until I've got a job that can either pay for it or gives it to me, or until I'm 26.  I also know that many countries have universal health care, and it hurt them less than we've been by our current system. / sigh /collapse /I need a scotch.


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## Jeremy (Mar 22, 2010)

> All I know is I wanted universal health care to pass, because we are the last industrialized nation that hasn't and are only just above Cuba in rankings. That and I was happy that my Mom can stop worrying about me getting my own health insurance at least until I've got a job that can either pay for it or gives it to me, or until I'm 26. I also know that many countries have universal health care, and it hurt them less than we've been by our current system. / sigh /collapse /I need a scotch.



Cuba has socialized (universal) health care.  (see my stossel videos in my other post for more on Cuba too)

(and my above post for the actual issue)


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## Sporge27 (Mar 22, 2010)

Jeremy said:
			
		

> > All I know is I wanted universal health care to pass, because we are the last industrialized nation that hasn't and are only just above Cuba in rankings. That and I was happy that my Mom can stop worrying about me getting my own health insurance at least until I've got a job that can either pay for it or gives it to me, or until I'm 26. I also know that many countries have universal health care, and it hurt them less than we've been by our current system. / sigh /collapse /I need a scotch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Who doesn't have socialized health care?


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## Numner (Mar 22, 2010)

Ciaran said:
			
		

> Jeremy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is no such thing as free, it's gonna cost the economy which isn't too good anyway.


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## Tyler (Mar 22, 2010)

iFly said:
			
		

> Ciaran said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Except for a copy of ET for the Atari. 

Anyway, I'm glad that some form of healthcare reform was passed. Millions of Americans (including my family, my father is currently unemployed) have been without healthcare for a long time. While I'm not sure that this bill is perfect and is what the country needs, it is a step in the right direction. We'll have to wait and see how this plays out, which is something that's been common in American history.

To whoever said the poll numbers said people didn't want reform, I'm going to agree with Sporge. You have to realize many people want reform (or have no idea what they want) but are unhappy with the current bill. There are many things that the current bill can't do because of Republicans in Congress constantly blocking any sort of reform or anything that would make Obama look good.


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## Jeremy (Mar 22, 2010)

Sporge27 said:
			
		

> Jeremy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Most countries have some form of government regulation today.  The US did long before this bill passed as well.  Most governments today attempt to control everything- from health care, to food, drugs, speech, water pressure in your house, etc.  But I don't think you are going to help your argument with this.  Economies all around the world are collapsing and some areas that have been socialized for years are turning to private options.  Since government control is everywhere today, we can look at how much it is actually controlling.  The economic freedom index rates which economies have the least regulation.  http://www.heritage.org/index/Ranking.aspx  As you can see, this list is also a good representation of how prosperous the economies are.  My argument is that it's not a coincidence- free markets (liberty in general) result in prosperity.  Government regulation results in poverty.  We can also look at history.  Compare when the price (and lack of quality) in health care began rising to when government began intervening.  But this argument is not just about health care.  It can be applied to anything.  The most recent example in the US is the housing boom and bust.  Education is also a good example.

Lastly, I want to bring up the portions of the health care system that have DECREASED in price and increased in quality.  Something like LAISIK surgery.  Why has this part of the system been so successful?  There's no government intervention manipulating supply and demand.


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## Sporge27 (Mar 22, 2010)

I honestly wasn't making a point fact was I actually couldn't think of any.

However I do think government intervention has helped in many areas.  Especially involving civil rights, things like women's suffrage.  That wouldn't be here without the government going against popular opinion.  Many technologies wouldn't be near as advanced it there wasn't an occasional push by the government.  I just can't see all the government as evil as some do.  There are many things I am absolutely glad to have provided, many things that make sense for large groups of people to help pay for like roads, or the post office.  There isn't even a public option in the bill, so yes there is some control involved, but not really even run yet.


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

Sporge27 said:
			
		

> I honestly wasn't making a point fact was I actually couldn't think of any.
> 
> However I do think government intervention has helped in many areas.  Especially involving civil rights, things like women's suffrage.  That wouldn't be here without the government going against popular opinion.  Many technologies wouldn't be near as advanced it there wasn't an occasional push by the government.  I just can't see all the government as evil as some do.  There are many things I am absolutely glad to have provided, many things that make sense for large groups of people to help pay for like roads, or the post office.  There isn't even a public option in the bill, so yes there is some control involved, but not really even run yet.


Not everything the government does is evil... most of it is just stupidity from unexperienced power-mongers. And don't forget, it was people like Martin Luther King Jr., not the government that helped a lot with civil rights.


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## Jeremy (Mar 22, 2010)

Sporge27 said:
			
		

> I honestly wasn't making a point fact was I actually couldn't think of any.
> 
> However I do think government intervention has helped in many areas.  Especially involving civil rights, things like women's suffrage.  That wouldn't be here without the government going against popular opinion.  Many technologies wouldn't be near as advanced it there wasn't an occasional push by the government.  I just can't see all the government as evil as some do.  There are many things I am absolutely glad to have provided, many things that make sense for large groups of people to help pay for like roads, or the post office.  There isn't even a public option in the bill, so yes there is some control involved, but not really even run yet.


Well I believe government's only job is to protect rights but I think they _actually_ do the exact opposite.  On civil rights,  the book Dredd Scott's Revenge is a good recap on the US government being racist.  In some ways they help with rights, but I don't think they help more than hurt.  What about when the federal government forced northerns to give black people over to slave owners looking for their escaped slaves?  There are many examples like this.  Women's suffrage isn't really a good example in my opinion because voting itself is a government function.  It was the government that denied women the right to vote in the first place.

And I don't think technologies are better off with government intervention.  I think they are far worse off because of the extreme pressures they put on businesses.  Technology comes from profit motive / business.


> I just can't see all the government as evil


I can


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## Gnome (Mar 22, 2010)

Jeremy said:
			
		

> Sporge27 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You guys are breaking your own rules again.


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## Jeremy (Mar 22, 2010)

Gnome said:
			
		

> You guys are breaking your own rules again.


?

It's not a rule that you can't debate politics.  That rule was deleted like two years ago.  It's still a rule that you can't debate religion though.  Way too many chances for people to be offended in those debates, I'd rather see it kept in PM.

And I hope people don't get offended in this thread... I don't really like debating politics here because I'd rather look like a neutral admin, but I can't resist lol.  There's no reason why we can't all talk about it seriously though.


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 22, 2010)

Jeremy said:
			
		

> Gnome said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly. And I'm glad you logged on, Jer. I felt alone in my stand against the bill. :'(


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## Sporge27 (Mar 22, 2010)

Really the government has done good things and bad things... but I think the main thing to remember is that it is a tool in the end to maintain order... but order is fairly objective, what to keep in order and such.  I've really lost all will to debate by now, just getting really philosophical in my head.

A situation in which 0 government control I cannot see working any better than one with total control.  There should be limits to at the very least stop stupid people from doing stupid things.  There also should be freedoms.  Really a happy medium is required and why there are so many debates about things because different people see this point at different places.


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## Resonate (Mar 22, 2010)

One of my problems with this Bill is that it makes it Mandatory for people to have Health Insurance.  The govt is making insurance mandatory by pinning a fine of $2000 dollars if you do not get health insurance.  Isn't this Unconstitutional?  If people do not want insurance (or can't even afford it!), is forcing people by putting a fine as a punishment to get insurrance going to solve much?

I'm more worried about where all the money is going to come from to fund this...  





> The Outstanding Public Debt as of 22 Mar 2010 at 10:44:52 PM GMT is:
> *<big>$12,673,303,281,341.45</big>*
> 
> http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/


That's how much money we _don't_ have!  And annually, the United States is only making enough to pay for what it produces.  So we make enough money just to get by, while our national debt steadily increases.  We don't need to be spending any more money then we have to.  The Government has to keep borrowing money from other countries to pay for these kinds of things.  We can't keep borrowing money for things that might put us into even more debt.

The Health Care bill might look like a good idea on paper... but with a *ONE TRILLION* dollar total, if I was a congressman I'd offer to spend the money of the _people_ on something a little wiser; Something that the majority of the public wants, and something that it is not split on.

I wish we all did have free healthcare... but not if it's gonna cost the public an arm and a leg at the same time.  The Government hasn't exactly proven that it could do well with our nation's money in the past...

Except for Hamilton.  

Go Alex! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Hamilton


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## Pear (Mar 22, 2010)

Sporge27 said:
			
		

> Really the government has done good things and bad things... but I think the main thing to remember is that it is a tool in the end to maintain order... but order is fairly objective, what to keep in order and such.  I've really lost all will to debate by now, just getting really philosophical in my head.
> 
> A situation in which 0 government control I cannot see working any better than one with total control.  There should be limits to at the very least stop stupid people from doing stupid things.  There also should be freedoms.  Really a happy medium is required and why there are so many debates about things because different people see this point at different places.


I've agreed with everything sporge has said, so I'm not going to re-post it. 65% of Americans supported the bill, when it had the public option. They weren't against reform, they were against the very weak bill they passed just now. 

@Poot- You have a good point. We have a <big><big><big>*huge*</big></big></big> national debt. That's why I support a certain type of Universal Health Care. It's a single-payer system. In this system, everyone pays the same percent of their income to a fund. This fund is separate from the budget and debt. Since few people are sick at any given time, the healthy pay for the sick, distributing costs so they're inexpensive.


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## Tyeforce (Mar 22, 2010)

Sporge27 said:
			
		

> I do love Colbert's semi-recent episode on numbers in polls.


That episode was great. XD


And I have the perfect solution to all this; move to Canada! ;D


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## MasterM64 (Mar 22, 2010)

This Health Care Bill is so unConstitutional, read Amendments 9-10 of the Constitution of the United States of America.

Amendment 9:

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment 10:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


Do you see what I mean? They're violating the Constitution by passing this Health Care Bill, don't re-elect these corrupted Congress men who signed and agreed to this unConstitutional Bill.


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## Gethsamane (Mar 23, 2010)

Just out of curiousity, how many of you have actually read the bill? I can garuntee: None of you. It's 1,017 pages of legal bull*censored.2.0*. But is that your fault? The government doesn't WANT you to read it. 

Search the web for some sites that have highlighted key points. That's what I did. But I only took stuff that the majority of sites agreed on, to insure I was only getting real info. My conclusion?

This bill is, in my opinion, almost as dangerous to the United States as the War on Terror in Iraq/Afghanistan.


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 23, 2010)

Gethsamane said:
			
		

> Just out of curiousity, how many of you have actually read the bill? I can garuntee: None of you. It's 1,017 pages of legal bull*censored.2.0*. But is that your fault? The government doesn't WANT you to read it.
> 
> Search the web for some sites that have highlighted key points. That's what I did. But I only took stuff that the majority of sites agreed on, to insure I was only getting real info. My conclusion?
> 
> This bill is, in my opinion, almost as dangerous to the United States as the War on Terror in Iraq/Afghanistan.


You get a +10!


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## David (Mar 23, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcBaSP31Be8&feature=player_embedded

watch

the US is so *censored.3.0*ed up.


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## Tyler (Mar 23, 2010)

Bacon Boy said:
			
		

> Gethsamane said:
> 
> 
> 
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And you know what. I guarantee you most of the people in Congress haven't even read the bill. All it is is lawyers and other people telling members of Congress what they need to know and the pros and cons.


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## Sporge27 (Mar 23, 2010)

I have not read the bill no, I never read legalese, but summaries are all over the web by now, and were there before.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20000846-503544.html

I am trying really, REALLY hard to see what people hate so much about this.  I can't find anything that large.  So you need health insurance just like car insurance now, it helps average costs over everyone in the nation so no one person gets hit with losing all their money to continue living.  IT IS PRETTY MUCH BANKRUPTCY PREVENTION.  Is it the raised taxes?  I can see that grinding some but it really only affects those making enough money that they shouldn't care too much, I wouldn't if I made over 200,000 a year myself.  

I mean unless you just can't stand any form of government expansion, but really I see this helping plenty of people out there.  I see this bill aiding those in a time when aid is most appreciated.


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## David (Mar 23, 2010)

the video i posted has all the key points of the bill.


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## Tyler (Mar 23, 2010)

MasterM64 said:
			
		

> This Health Care Bill is so unConstitutional, read Amendments 9-10 of the Constitution of the United States of America.
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Yes, true true. However, if people just went with that, then so many things we have would be considered unconstitutional; vehicle insurance, social security, the Federal Reserve (Bank of the US, BUS), etc. The thing is there is a part of the Constitution that gives the federal government implied powers that allow them to pass laws that help the people and upholds the Constitution. This was a huge discussion in the 1800s, which led to the constant adding and removal of the BUS and this continued until the Civil War.

So if it can be proven that the bill isn't an implied power and violates the Constitution, then I suppose they'll get rid of that. Hwoever, that's going to be a pretty hard case to backup.


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## Sporge27 (Mar 23, 2010)

David said:
			
		

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcBaSP31Be8&feature=player_embedded
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> watch
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> the US is so *censored.3.0*ed up.


Somehow I don't trust that... the vids on the side are about Obama admitting to being a Muslim... which I don't remember ever happening...


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## Sporge27 (Mar 23, 2010)

David said:
			
		

> the video i posted has all the key points of the bill.


Wait this is an old bill anyway... this is the one from August it definitely changed.  Besides that some of those quotes I am fairly certain are taken out of context.


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## David (Mar 23, 2010)

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thats a different channel. and its one video,


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## Sporge27 (Mar 23, 2010)

David said:
			
		

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There were two... >_>

But besides that this is the bill from August, and on top of that taking lines out of context really makes them seem awful.  I can do that most things... For example

"We collect your personal information because it helps us deliver a superior level of customer service."- Apple
"We may share aggregate statistics about iGoogle usage with our business partners." -google

"NEITHER WE NOR OUR FRANCHISEES, AFFILIATES OR BUSINESS PARTNERS WILL BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF THE USE OF OR INABILITY TO USE OUR WEB SITE, EVEN IF WE HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES." - Applebees

You can really make a lot of legal quotes seem bad when in practice you never notice, and can you guess which one I cut out so you don't read the sentence after that really makes it okay?

Also if you are gonna watch that vid at least read an article about what the CURRENT bill will do.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20000846-503544.html

I tried to choose a normally unbiased newsgroup... I don't think CBS is considered biased...


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## John102 (Mar 23, 2010)

Lol, looking into a career as a doctor would be beneficial right about now


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 23, 2010)

John102 said:
			
		

> Lol, looking into a career as a doctor would be beneficial right about now


Depends. If the IRS decides to get cheap OWAI-


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## John102 (Mar 23, 2010)

I'm just depressed that it will take basically as long as it does now to see a specialist(physical therapist, sports doctor), as it will to see a normal doctor when this bill gets into action...which could be like weeks or months.


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## Ron Ronaldo (Mar 23, 2010)

I feel kind of bad for this bill.
Conseratives want it to spontaneously combust, and flaming liberals like myself are like "HEY BRO WHERE'S THE PUBLIC OPTION?"

Poor little guy. :<


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## Pear (Mar 23, 2010)

Ron Ronaldo said:
			
		

> I feel kind of bad for this bill.
> Conseratives want it to spontaneously combust, and flaming liberals like myself are like "HEY BRO WHERE'S THE PUBLIC OPTION?"
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> Poor little guy. :<


Exactly, both sides dislike it. Dems in congress keep trying to appease conservatives, and guess what, they still got 0 votes. It might actually be worth something if it had the public option. :/


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## Ron Ronaldo (Mar 23, 2010)

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I know, right? I don't see how people who oppose it can object to it THAT much. Is a little regulation on the insurance companies such a bad thing? 
I was definitely kind of disappointed with it, but in a rare spurt of optimism I see it like a foundation  which will hopefully have more built onto it. ^^


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 23, 2010)

Ron Ronaldo said:
			
		

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Little? XDDDDD

Why the hell do you think it took so long to push? This is a huge bill not only affecting insurance companies.


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## Nic (Mar 23, 2010)

I also heard this morning while my parents were talking that he is now letting aliens over and becoming US citizens.  That is just a little step more until they nuke us.


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 23, 2010)

Nic said:
			
		

> I also heard this morning while my parents were talking that he is now letting aliens over and becoming US citizens.  That is just a little step more until they nuke us.


AHHHHHHH! Carry on.


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## Nic (Mar 23, 2010)

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I don't know a lot about it.  But go Google it or something, might be able to find some info about it.


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## AndyB (Mar 23, 2010)

Nic said:
			
		

> I also heard this morning while my parents were talking that he is now letting aliens over and becoming US citizens.  That is just a little step more until they nuke us.


. . . 
Anyway, I've not heard all that much on it and really I'm for the idea yeah.But it's so stupid how people are against this. 
Ok, I'm not being affected by this so I don't know all the details.


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 23, 2010)

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It's actually a good thing. That way, we won't be paying for their healthcare because they don't have insurance.


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## Nic (Mar 23, 2010)

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Well only damn thing that makes me go bananas is that lets say you or your family makes 12,000 dollars a month.  Well it so happens that we are getting taxed 50% so if you do the math it would equal out to 6,000 dollars a month.  But I am all in the idea that people should get free health care but when we are getting taxed 50%, no way.


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## Ron Ronaldo (Mar 23, 2010)

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Uninsured peeps often can't get access to a doctor, and use the ER as their primary care doctor. Hospitals can't turn dying people down, but if they can't be paid for, guess where the costs go? Yeha, the hospital.


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## Sporge27 (Mar 23, 2010)

I don't understand most of Nic's post... >_>

But health insurance can be expensive, that is why there are such large taxes associated with actually having the government provide everyone with health care, because it is basically instead of buying insurance which is already for an average family expensive.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/health/2009-09-15-insurance-costs_N.htm


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## Nic (Mar 23, 2010)

Ron Ronaldo said:
			
		

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Well, if a homeless person walks into the ER, they have to take care of them no doubt about it.  Well so far all it is equaling out to that people who sit on there behinds getting free health care but us Americans are paying 50% of our income to them that is just some BS.  Soon I bet you the whole USA everybody will be in the military no questions about it.


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## Sporge27 (Mar 23, 2010)

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what?
Are you crazy?  how does giving a hobo treatment for a broken leg lead to a militarized state?


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## Nic (Mar 23, 2010)

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I didn't say that.  I am just saying if a homeless person walks into the ER room the doctors have to treat him.


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## Sporge27 (Mar 23, 2010)

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What was this highlighted part even saying then?


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## Furry Sparks (Mar 23, 2010)

I hate you all. You made me ruin my months of not being here so I could say how full of stupid this thread is.


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 23, 2010)

Furry Sparks said:
			
		

> I hate you all. You made me ruin my months of not being here so I could say how full of stupid this thread is.


fftopic: OMAIGAWSH IT'S FS!

YOU'RE BACK!


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## Furry Sparks (Mar 23, 2010)

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You do realize I meant you?

Please people, don't get all angry at *censored.2.0* because your parents are. Know what the *censored.3.0* you're talking about before you have an opinion on it and talk about it. Thank you.


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 23, 2010)

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I know what I'm talking about. I do the research because it does affect me because taxes DO come out of my paycheck. I agree with my parents on this one, does that mean I'm basing it off of them? Hell no. 

Some of us are intelligent, you know.


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## Furry Sparks (Mar 23, 2010)

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You don't make nearly enough to be affected by the tax increase.


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 23, 2010)

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You'd be surprised. Not on the amount I make, but the fact that it will affect me either now or later.


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## Furry Sparks (Mar 23, 2010)

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Even if you are making 200K+, you can afford the tax increase.


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## Sporge27 (Mar 23, 2010)

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He does however have a right to worry that it will eventually affect his.... sigh....

I still don't think it is really a needed worry, what you give to taxes goes right back to you unless you make so much money, and by that point you should be making enough to make a living...


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## Rawburt (Mar 23, 2010)

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People don't like it unless it all their money goes into their pocket I guess.


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## Sporge27 (Mar 23, 2010)

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And that is understandable, people don't like the idea of people freeloading off what they made, but then you have to think of how people became poor.  Most of the time they were just born into it, and really when you are without some help there is no way to get out of it sometimes...unless you just happen to be brilliant....but that is rare compared to how many get stuck.


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 23, 2010)

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Well then let us give to the poor on our own. It's our choice. Why should we be forced?  I do already, my friends, parents, etc. But there are those that would rather not. So why shouldn't they have a choice?


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## David (Mar 23, 2010)

speed up canadas wait times by a few hours and youve got a very good healthcare system.


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## //RUN.exe (Mar 23, 2010)

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okay, now agree to allow women to get abortions.  i mean, they should have that choice, right? :3


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## Sporge27 (Mar 23, 2010)

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Because some people, nay most people never would!

The point is that it is a system trying to balance the imbalance that lets the rich get richer while the poor get poorer.  I hate to say it but some people are heartless and cut throat when it comes to business and money, and taxes are ther to prevent them from just endlessly gaining without giving anything back.


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 23, 2010)

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But then why should those who actually do good suffer from those who don't. I saw we go back to tax rates - Richer get taxed a bit more, Poorer get taxed less, and the middle class is the happy medium. Why should EVERYONE suffer for one person's inabilities or heartlessness?


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## Nic (Mar 23, 2010)

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Eh, never mind.


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## Furry Sparks (Mar 23, 2010)

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Whoever said that doctors have to treat someone is wrong. There is no law saying they have to. People die on ER floors.


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## Trent the Paladin (Mar 23, 2010)

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There may be no law, but I'm almost certain it has to do with that Oath doctors take. The Hippocratic Oath or whatever.


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## Furry Sparks (Mar 23, 2010)

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That doesn't stop it from happening.


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## Sporge27 (Mar 23, 2010)

Bacon Boy said:
			
		

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There is a point where you don't get taxed.  But all taxes go towards public projects and helping less fortunate.  For example roads, these are areas that we all own, and so all need to pitch in to maintain, and that alone is a costly affair.  There are plenty other things that just make sense to all pitch in a little for because it benefits us all, things like the military and just about everything government run.


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## Horus (Mar 23, 2010)

Hitting myself with bricks sense now


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## Pear (Mar 24, 2010)

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That's why we should've had the public option. It would've been autonomous from insurance companies, so the government would have to stick it's nose in everywhere else.


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## Tyeforce (Mar 24, 2010)

Nic said:
			
		

> I also heard this morning while my parents were talking that he is now letting aliens over and becoming US citizens.  That is just a little step more until they nuke us.


I don't understand why people make such a big deal out of this. None of you would be Americans if your ancestors hadn't became US citizens (unless you're 100% native American). Why can't people have that freedom today if they want it?


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## Bacon Boy (Mar 24, 2010)

I agree with Tye. At first I didn't know what nic said. I though illegals said they didn't want a citizenship. That's what bothers me.


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