# OK



## Redacted (Dec 5, 2014)

OK


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## Tao (Dec 5, 2014)

I'm pretty sad that this is still an issue that hasn't been resolved. I've been out of the loop (because I simply chose to ignore 'the latest gaming issue') for about 2 months when I last saw anything about it, only to be reinterested now that one of my more favorite and reputable game journalists 'Jim Sterling' has left his job due to all of this crap.


I just don't understand the debate at all. These things shouldn't be issues in the first place.


For a start the harassment. I'm not even going to waste my time talking about it. The fact that there are even debates about harassment blows my friggin' mind.

This led into an entirely different debate of "woman using sex for things". Is that true? I dunno and I don't rightly care whether or not she did as what she traded for a review isn't the issue. The fact that a *person* has 'supposedly' *traded* for good reviews is a different issue entirely, relating to paying people off for things like a decent review.  At that point, we're basically being sold lies, and that ain't cool.

It doesn't help with companies like Ubisoft practically making this sort of crap happen with the way they 'censor reviews', remove unfavorable reviews and give a vast number of popular youtubers a sum of money to say only good things about their latest overhyped broken release.

A BIG issue here, review scores these days are just bulls**t. An 8/10 is considered 'bad' these days, with a lot of reviewers getting hate for something as high as a 9/10. This practically forces publishers/developers to make these 'bad decisions' because if their game get's an 8 or lower, there's a darn good chance that game is going to flop since 8/10 is the equivalent of having somebody smear their feces in your face. When you have to live up to things like that, I'm not surprised if devs are paying off reviewers.


Is the 'female representation in videogames' thing part of GamerGate? I think that's largely BS as well.
With all the polls that show almost as many women play video games as men, it does seem like there's a lack of representation. When we get the specific details of WHAT games each gender are playing, I'm really not surprised that a lot of games still have a boring male grizzled war vet as the main character.
I DO think that games should be putting forward a lot more female representation in games though unless the story specifically demands a male lead (God of War would be odd if Kratos was female...As would the opposite, Tomb Raider with Larry Croft). Regardless of whether or not just as many females are playing these games as there are males, there are still points:
- The women that DO play these games could very easily feel isolated with the games these days. I can count the amount of recent games with a female lead/choice of gender one hand. The amount of 'representation' won't rise if there aren't games everybody can relate to.
- A surprising amount of men 'prefer' playing as a female character. This is for many reasons. Either the gender a guy 'relates' to, the female characters typically having a 'different' set of stats (usually agile), the female animations being more visually appealing, easier to identify with a character who is nothing like you, or simply that they like watching their butt wiggle.


The sad thing is, way too much of this can be blamed on the gamers themselves (not that they'll ever admit it)
- There's a reason that 8/10 is the same as a 'bad game', and it's largely the gamers fault. (as well as reviewers throwing out 8's+9's/10 like they're going out of fashion)
- There's a reason companies keep putting out game after game of crap. It's because we keep buying it. (really, vote with your wallets, you idiots)
- There's a reason women aren't treated that great, and it largely has to do with an industry full of men trying to keep their little hobby 'exclusive' and thinking that women are 'lesser beings' only capable of cooking and acting as a meat shield whilst you carry the flag.




I'm quite sure little of this really applies to me though as I've largely ignored the 'games journalism' world for a damn long time as I've not trusted a 'professional review' or been absorbed into artificial hype in years. I largely make decisions based on user reviews these days, mostly on Amazon, the 3 star reviews since they tend to tell you both the good and the bad about a game. It's been way more trustworthy than 'real' reviews have with a lot less drama.
I still have one or two 'professional' sources I trust (as said, Mr.Sterling) but these are coming so few and far between these days...

Game Journalism can crash and burn for all I care. It seems to be going that way.


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## radical6 (Dec 5, 2014)

everyone can probably guess my opinion on it if they know me well enough so

how come all related gaming "movements" now end in gate? resoultiongate. yeah it was never a catchy name. smh


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## LambdaDelta (Dec 5, 2014)

literal ****ing garbage


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## Dustmop (Dec 5, 2014)

Tao said:


> - There's a reason women aren't treated that great, and it largely has to do with an industry full of men trying to keep their little hobby 'exclusive'



I know this is probably heading a wee bit off-topic, but one of the things that bothers me the most about that in particular is that the same dudes who want "a girlfriend/wife that shares their hobbies/interests" -- in this case, video games -- are often the VERY SAME GUYS who treat us like **** the moment we enter a multiplayer game.

srsly. you can't have it both ways. ?\_(ツ)_/?


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## KarlaKGB (Dec 5, 2014)

justice said:


> everyone can probably guess my opinion on it if they know me well enough so
> 
> how come all related gaming "movements" now end in gate? resoultiongate. yeah it was never a catchy name. smh



eh, the -gate suffix has been around for decades...


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## oath2order (Dec 5, 2014)

It was originally about Zoe Quinn sleeping with reviewers and other gaming industry people to help out her game.

Her supporters and social justice warriors have warped it into the typical "females aren't represented" thing.


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## radical6 (Dec 5, 2014)

KarlaKGB said:


> eh, the -gate suffix has been around for decades...



i know but why are all the game related "movements" using it now be more creative

i think we should change all game movements to gayme who agrees 
anyway when does this die . no one likes ign or gamespot reviews anyway or kotaku so no one believed in them in the first place. not to mention the locked reviews for AC unity sucks, so that doesnt help reviews either.

whatever, i dont use professional gaming journalism sites to buy games anyway. i like user reviews the best, or watching a LP.


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## KarlaKGB (Dec 6, 2014)

idk man, its not surprising at all that video game devs will use personal relationships to get favourable reviews, its not exactly a unique feature of the gaming industry


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## Celestefey (Dec 6, 2014)

oath2order said:


> Her supporters and social justice warriors have warped it into the typical "females aren't represented" thing.



Well this is true though, the fact that women are under-represented in videogames yet 50% of people who play videogames are female. I always enjoy playing as female characters because I feel I can get a closer connection to the character and really identify with them. Of course, if you're a male and always play as male characters maybe you can't appreciate it so much, but I always enjoy being able to play as a female in a game, hence why I love Nintendo because they genuinely are trying to throw more female characters into the mix, like in Mario Kart 8 and Smash Bros. Now I have a wide choice of female characters I can play as! I don't see why you make it seem like a bad thing, though, although maybe I've misinterpreted what you've said.


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## KarlaKGB (Dec 6, 2014)

Himari said:


> Well this is true though, the fact that women are under-represented in videogames yet 50% of people who play videogames are female. I always enjoy playing as female characters because I feel I can get a closer connection to the character and really identify with them. Of course, if you're a male and always play as male characters maybe you can't appreciate it so much, but I always enjoy being able to play as a female in a game, hence why I love Nintendo because they genuinely are trying to throw more female characters into the mix, like in Mario Kart 8 and Smash Bros. Now I have a wide choice of female characters I can play as! I don't see why you make it seem like a bad thing, though, although maybe I've misinterpreted what you've said.



this 50% of gamers being women, where does this stat come from? does it include ppl who play those filthy casual facebook/mobile games?


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## Celestefey (Dec 6, 2014)

Here are the stats. It's ALMOST a 50/50 ratio, I just made an approximation. And no it doesn't include them, they're apps. So yeah, it's quite shocking actually. Like someone said earlier on "it's like men are trying to make videogames exclusive to them", when it really isn't an exclusive thing at all. Everyone and anyone can enjoy them. I mean, I quite like that such diverse groups of people can all share one thing in common and unite over one thing but... there you go.


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## oath2order (Dec 6, 2014)

Himari said:


> Well this is true though, the fact that women are under-represented in videogames yet 50% of people who play videogames are female. I always enjoy playing as female characters because I feel I can get a closer connection to the character and really identify with them. Of course, if you're a male and always play as male characters maybe you can't appreciate it so much, but I always enjoy being able to play as a female in a game, hence why I love Nintendo because they genuinely are trying to throw more female characters into the mix, like in Mario Kart 8 and Smash Bros. Now I have a wide choice of female characters I can play as! I don't see why you make it seem like a bad thing, though, although maybe I've misinterpreted what you've said.



Yeah, you definitely misinterpreted. What I was saying was that the whole controversy was about one thing and it somehow got warped into another debate, taking away from the original issue.


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## Reindeer (Dec 7, 2014)

justice said:


> i know but why are all the game related "movements" using it now be more creative
> 
> whatever, i dont use professional gaming journalism sites to buy games anyway. i like user reviews the best, or watching a LP.


All scandals use -gate. Think of Bendgate, which was about the iPhone 6 supposedly bending in people's pockets. "Bendgate" is easier to say than "the iPhone 6 bending scandal".

And I agree. There used to be a time that professional reviews mattered to me, but paid reviews have been around for nearly a decade now. There were rumors of it beforehand, but when Jeff Gerstmann got fired from GameSpot in 2007 for scoring Kane & Lynch badly it was pretty much confirmed.



oath2order said:


> It was originally about Zoe Quinn sleeping with reviewers and other gaming industry people to help out her game.
> 
> Her supporters and social justice warriors have warped it into the typical "females aren't represented" thing.


While that's how it started, it blew up after an independent investigative journalist found a mailing list proving that these so-called journalists from various sites will talk behind the screens, agree on what they should and should not talk about. Apart from that, it also showed the hypocrisy of these SJWs, in that they will criticize any form of "sexist speech" even if it's done jokingly, yet behind the scenes they would pretty much say the exact same things. Anyone that doubted their course of action was immediately put to trial by the group. It's corrupt, to say the least.

It's also why I despise people linking to sites like Kotaku, Polygon, Giant Bomb and whatnot. They're people that throw around trash simply because they want walking simulators with **** stories like Gone Home to be the future of gaming. They're not journalists, they're activists.



KarlaKGB said:


> idk man, its not surprising at all that video game devs will use personal relationships to get favourable reviews, its not exactly a unique feature of the gaming industry


Even if it isn't, people should stand up against it. Leaving it alone will just make sure it spreads even more than it already has. I want to go back to a time where reviews aren't owned by the companies that make these games, where a person reviewing a game gives a fair assessment and is able to call a game **** if it's ****. With how bad the game industry has become ever since the release of the 360 and PS3, having these people around would certainly help to improve the quality of games. None of this day one patch bull****, where all the major bugs are taken out. Bring back the good old days of making sure a product is good before you release it.



Tao brought up some good points. People keep buying this crap, so companies can keep selling it to us. Of course, some people are going to buy them before we hear if  it has this or that problem, but if it's a broken game then the sales should basically stop there until it's fixed. The movement against these reviewers was going strong for a while but has died down now. It's plain sad.

Some of these people will also claim that gamers will set back gaming 10 years if they keep going like this. In that case, let's keep going so we can go back to the golden age, during which games that were released were given a fair assessment, and games that got rave reviews were actually incredible. The entire PS2 era was great because of games like Shadow of the Colossus, Metal Gear Solid, Silent Hill, Okami... The list goes on, and not only for the PS2.
Then you look at the libraries of previous systems and you've got your Mass Effect, Dead Space, Dead Rising, etc. All franchises that started off good, but the later installments were broken, glitchy pieces of ****.

Then you hear that Anita Sarkeesian was hired to work on Mirror's Edge 2, probably one of the most incredible games of the previous generation. But the gameplay was too hard for her, there were too many buttons. So now we've got to make it more accessible, and in her mind "accessible" means GTA gameplay. Mirror's Edge 2 is just going to be GTA with a woman.

**** SJWs.









KarlaKGB said:


> this 50% of gamers being women, where does this stat come from? does it include ppl who play those filthy casual facebook/mobile games?


casual gamers innit


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## Kitsuneko (Dec 7, 2014)

I don't like getting into this sort of thing and that this whole Gamergate issue is still just one big mess, and I really hope it gets resolved soon.  This whole mess became more apparent because of a certain individual stepping on an existing land mine that got intentionally tangled with certain feminist people such as Anita...  It's bad either way.  Long post below...

This existing land mine is being where AAA game companies and developers are able to pay or bribe review/gaming websites to rate their games and products higher than it really should for positive advertising.  I personally don't really care about reviews nowadays, but I take it that most of people are sick and annoyed with it.  I'm not mentioning any names, but let's just say that this certain individual got into a relationship with several people who are in the gaming/journalism industry, which resulted in the game the person produced to gain some publicity and to be greenlighted on Steam - and they didn't really judge the game either.   This is what sparked the land mine to blow up.  You can read up more about it and do your own research if you're curious.

Basically, this whole Gamergate thing is more about a consumer revolt dealing with gaming journalism and ethics (like the incident above) than it is dealing about women in video games.  It was never about fighting or discouraging women from playing games or from developing them.  These people trying to fight against Gamergate are the people using feminism as a front because they got caught red handed with what they're doing.  They are using feminism/women tropes as a way to spin and deflect the blame on Gamergate and the people who don't agree with them.  These lunatics rage like a kid throwing a temper tantram.

Though I am pretty much for Gamergate as I agree with most of their ideology in wanting honesty and integrity when it comes to gaming news and stuff, I am not completely obsessed with it.  I don't agree with some of their actions either.  However, on the other hand it's obvious the people using feminism as a way to defend themselves are in the wrong here when it's about ethics.  There are also these extreme feminist that take things way to far...  and women trying to fight for 'equality'  in video games is kind of silly and are pretty much using that to get whatever they want.  Such as this; beware of the image in the link.  Do not click it if you're sensitive to blood...  but hover over link and see the full text before clicking, should be self-explanatory:

https://www.change.org/p/target-wit...yers-to-commit-sexual-violence-and-kill-women

It's silly, but makes me facepalm so hard as how and why these things are happening the way they do.  I'm not into games like GTA, but I do know what they are about and I won't put down people that do enjoy playing those games.  These anti-Gamergate/feminists/etc have gone off the rails, and are taking things way out of context to push their own agendas onto other people.  They are pretty much trying to pull certain games off the shelves from stores just to 'win' something, and make the opposing side cry for being a 'gamer'...

It'd be unfair for me to lump those kind of people all into one big feminism group, so I apologize if I offended you if you aren't one of those crazy lunatics.  I don't say feminism is a bad thing when used to fight for something real and is legitimate.  I would gladly side with them to fight for equality and rights in the real world.  But when it comes to fiction and video games, it's just crazy.  It's this kind of thing that makes me worry about future game releases.  This kind of thing restricts good creativity in making video games because the developers will worry about stepping on 'sensitive' toes like this.

Somewhat related: http://i.imgur.com/xgmFJ2h.jpg


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## WonderK (Dec 7, 2014)

It doesn't do anything productive in the media and on the news. All gamergate tends to do is start controversy among communities of people. My opinion? Utter hogwash.


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## SuperVandal (Dec 7, 2014)

Kitsuneko said:


> be unfair for me to lump those kind of people all into one big feminism group, so I apologize if I offended you if you aren't one of those crazy lunatics.  I don't say feminism is a bad thing when used to fight for something real and is legitimate.  I would gladly side with them to fight for equality and rights in the real world.  But when it comes to fiction and video games, it's just crazy.  It's this kind of thing that makes me worry about future game releases.  This kind of thing restricts good creativity in making video games because the developers will worry about stepping on 'sensitive' toes like this.



i'm sorry but please educate yourself on what a feminist is and the ideologies behind the movement before you make presumptuous opinions on the behaviors of a small minute minority. 

in addition, by saying this entire debacle is primarily concerned with one issue over the other suggests the other issue isn't an issue at all. it is, and by trying to discredit the problem you're not helping matters at all. this is the exact reason why people continuously bring up the relationship between women and video game community. it is a completely vile and horrendous environment, and when people bring up the legitimate concerns surrounding this issue it's always swept under the rug. there is a lot to be said about the reaction of people from this entire event, and truth be told it's very ignorant to ignore such concerns simply because you think one issue takes precedence over the other.

for the record, this post was not directed towards you but to everybody who has voiced similar thoughts.


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## Kitsuneko (Dec 7, 2014)

I do know what feminist is about, originally.  When it used to stand for equal rights and fair treatment - feminism didn't mean only about women either.  That is what I respect.  I hate what it's now expanding and spreading into, and it's not involving just video games either.  It's the people that uses feminism (it's that what they call themselves, what else can you call them?) in a selfish way that gives it such a bad name nowadays.  It's these particular people using 'feminism' as a means for women to gain superiority and a way to gain publicity on over trivial issues.  This is what I meant in my previous post, sorry if I wasn't clear.  Even their old fellow people disagree with what they're doing too.  

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/a...cussing-the-real-war-on-women/article/2556419

I'm pretty sure you heard the news too...  About the scientist landing a probe on a comet not too long ago.  Those certain feminists/SJWs rather pick and start drama about the guy's shirt than the big achievement itself.  And the guy's shirt was apparently given to him by his girlfriend.  Either way, that doesn't sound right to me...  Does it sound okay to you? 

Anyway, I'd like to settle on reason and compromise and let the whole mess get resolved, really.  The people against Gamergate are rather hostile though.  They just want to fight; there are multiple instances of them mailing syringes to people's houses telling them to kill themselves and resorting to calling every 'gamer' as a white male, hating them all of them as a whole even if they are their own reader/(ex)fanbase.  They're using whatever they can, including this feminism card - and there are other people trying to profit and gain publicity out of it.  That too tells me an impression of something.  You can Google around for articles about it.

Video games would be an expressive art form where creators and developers can create ideas for a world without limit where people can just get lost or have fun, away from the real world for some time such as Animal Crossing.  I hope I'm not the only one, but I personally don't like having outside real world politics, religious, morals, or whatever else being forced onto the developers influencing how they create games or stop them from doing it.  There are plenty of games for anyone and comes in a variety of genres that can probably suit anyone's taste if they search hard enough.  Just because they don't like a certain game because how it's presented and/or made (such as how women/tropes/etc are being portrayed in video games as an example), shouldn't be a good reason to get it pulled it off the shelves, discourage people from playing it, much less hate the entire video game hobby culture because just because they don't like it.  They can either try making their own games, or start a community with common interests and form something entirely new.  I read around, there are free organizations or game jams that people can join that helps people pitch their game ideas into being made, as well as a particular game jam encouraging aspiring female developers to get into the gaming industry.


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## KarlaKGB (Dec 7, 2014)

SuperVandal said:


> i'm sorry but please educate yourself on what a feminist is and the ideologies behind the movement before you make presumptuous opinions on the behaviors of a small minute minority.
> 
> in addition, by saying this entire debacle is primarily concerned with one issue over the other suggests the other issue isn't an issue at all. it is, and by trying to discredit the problem you're not helping matters at all. this is the exact reason why people continuously bring up the relationship between women and video game community. it is a completely vile and horrendous environment, and when people bring up the legitimate concerns surrounding this issue it's always swept under the rug. there is a lot to be said about the reaction of people from this entire event, and truth be told it's very ignorant to ignore such concerns simply because you think one issue takes precedence over the other.
> 
> for the record, this post was not directed towards you but to everybody who has voiced similar thoughts.



way to use the no true scotsman fallacy


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## Reindeer (Dec 7, 2014)

WonderK said:


> It doesn't do anything productive in the media and on the news. All gamergate tends to do is start controversy among communities of people. My opinion? Utter hogwash.


The movement has brought up a lot of proof of the corruption among gaming "journalists". I don't see how that's nonsense. If these people had any integrity they would not be bribed or bring their own agendas into their work, yet they do. A lot of them don't even know what being a journalist is.

American news agencies are pretty much owned by political parties, but I doubt people are happy about that either.


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## KarlaKGB (Dec 7, 2014)

gaming journalism is a new thing, of course ppl dont know what theyre doing


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## Nanobyte (Dec 7, 2014)

not sure what that is


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## Mr. L (Dec 7, 2014)

sjw tears are delicious


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## SuperVandal (Dec 7, 2014)

KarlaKGB said:


> way to use the no true scotsman fallacy


there's a difference between feminists and Tumblr SJW, but i wouldn't expect you to know such a difference. : )




@Kitsuneko Thank you for a response that's actually constructive and actually adds onto the discussion! However, I do want to point out a few things:
- I honestly hadn't heard of the news about the t-shirt, nor do I think it should have been newsworthy to begin with. I think I can see where the complaints originally come from which is the image distributed by the media of women seen as nothing more than sex objects. Which is nothing new, of course, but you have to wonder when it'll finally come to an end. 

- I've honestly never heard of feminists claiming superiority and the likes, but I think what you refer to is radical feminism. Again, I think you're mislabeling them as the central premise of feminism on its own is the "advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men." 

- I think it's a bit hypocritical of you to say that it's not right that these people derailed the guy's original achievement into a discussion on his t-shirt when you're doing a similar thing by derailing the discussion of Gamergate. This controversy is about multiple central issues, not just one. You've stated a couple of times already saying that it's not a big deal and that it's something really trivial, when it isn't. 

- Regarding the responses to and from Gamergate, there are people for and against this issue that have _made_ this controversy about gender. The fact that women are getting attacked by these people with death threats and rape threats speaks volumes of the environment the gaming community is in. If you think the environment is a safe and easy-going place, then I don't think you've witnessed the online gaming community beyond Nintendo's family-friendly games. _This_ is part of the ongoing issues being talked about, and not what you claim about people advocating women being superior.


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## oath2order (Dec 7, 2014)

KarlaKGB said:


> way to use the no true scotsman fallacy



In my experience, the SJWs I have argued with on TBT tend to use that fallacy a lot.



SuperVandal said:


> there's a difference between feminists and Tumblr SJW, but i wouldn't expect you to know such a difference. : )
> 
> - I've honestly never heard of feminists claiming superiority and the likes, but I think what you refer to is radical feminism. Again, I think you're mislabeling them as the central premise of feminism on its own is the "advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men."
> 
> - Regarding the responses to and from Gamergate, there are people for and against this issue that have _made_ this controversy about gender. The fact that women are getting attacked by these people with death threats and rape threats speaks volumes of the environment the gaming community is in. If you think the environment is a safe and easy-going place, then I don't think you've witnessed the online gaming community beyond Nintendo's family-friendly games. _This_ is part of the ongoing issues being talked about, and not what you claim about people advocating women being superior.



What I find fascinating here is that on one hand, you're decrying the people who say that "all feminists claim superiority over men" but then on the other hand you claim that the gaming community is all throwing death threats.

Just like the radical feminists, it's a small minority of people shouting death threats.


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## KarlaKGB (Dec 7, 2014)

SuperVandal said:


> there's a difference between feminists and Tumblr SJW, but i wouldn't expect you to know such a difference. : )



from the posts ive seen, ur the very embodiment of tumblr sjw


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## f11 (Dec 7, 2014)

Honestly this whole thing is a mess. id like to see games (other than nintendo) where women arent sexualized and there are a more equal rate of males to females. also i see my self as a feminist an honestly anita is kinda ****ty.


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## SuperVandal (Dec 7, 2014)

oath2order said:


> What I find fascinating here is that on one hand, you're decrying the people who say that "all feminists claim superiority over men" but then on the other hand you claim that the gaming community is all throwing death threats.
> 
> Just like the radical feminists, it's a small minority of people shouting death threats.



Fair point, terrible wording on my part(never said the entire community, but thanks for throwing false superlatives into my statements). However, it's that elephant in the room that people fail to acknowledge or address (evidenced in this very thread here) that really makes think of the gaming community the way that I've described it. The attacks are a small part of the problem of the treatment of women, along with unwillingness to see female-led games (referring back to when someone mentioned Mirrors Edge 2. Whaaat, a rehashed game with similar game mechanics? Like we haven't seen that before with 80% of the games out there, yet there's no huge outcry over that lol).

- - - Post Merge - - -



KarlaKGB said:


> from the posts ive seen, ur the very embodiment of tumblr sjw


i reeeally don't care what you have to say about me.  stay back on topic pls.


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## oath2order (Dec 7, 2014)

SuperVandal said:


> Fair point, terrible wording on my part(never said the entire community, but thanks for throwing false superlatives into my statements). However, it's that elephant in the room that people fail to acknowledge or address (evidenced in this very thread here) that really makes think of the gaming community the way that I've described it. The attacks are a small part of the problem of the treatment of women, along with unwillingness to see female-led games (referring back to when someone mentioned Mirrors Edge 2. Whaaat, a rehashed game with similar game mechanics? Like we haven't seen that before with 80% of the games out there, yet there's no huge outcry over that lol).



You described it as "volumes of the environment the gaming community is in."

Pretty obvious you meant most of the community.


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## SuperVandal (Dec 7, 2014)

oath2order said:


> You described it as "volumes of the environment the gaming community is in."
> 
> Pretty obvious you meant most of the community.



You're making assumptions which is the problem here. :V


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## M O L K O (Dec 7, 2014)

oath2order said:


> It was originally about Zoe Quinn sleeping with reviewers and other gaming industry people to help out her game.
> 
> Her supporters and social justice warriors have warped it into the typical "females aren't represented" thing.



this is all I know. I remember reading it and seeing essay sized comments with arguments between people with ponies in their avatars and women with multicolored hair and I had to go outside.


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## Mr. L (Dec 7, 2014)

Isn't this whole thing just sjws and feminazis whining about not having enough games that cater to their demographic and some gaming journalism scandals? Because gaming journalism is a joke of a "profession" and it deserves to die. As for the whining, do they seriously expect developers to cater to their needs/much smaller demographic just because of "MUH EQUALITY"? That's almost as big of a joke as gaming journalism. Anita, Zoe, and the rest of their subhuman sjw feminazi whining club need to understand how the industry works. But I wouldn't expect them to ever learn since Zoe Quinn is the cancer killing the video games industry.


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## Reindeer (Dec 7, 2014)

SuperVandal said:


> The attacks are a small part of the problem of the treatment of women, along with unwillingness to see female-led games (referring back to when someone mentioned Mirrors Edge 2. Whaaat, a rehashed game with similar game mechanics? Like we haven't seen that before with 80% of the games out there, yet there's no huge outcry over that lol).


For somebody complaining about people using false superlatives you sure enjoy using them yourself. I never said that I wouldn't like to see female-led games. In fact, there have been games led by females which I thought were incredible (Assassin's Creed II being a prime example). I am all for women joining the gaming industry, but when they force bad game design into it then the effect is only going to be negative.

My main complaint for Anita Sarkeesian being used as one of the project leads on Mirror's Edge 2 is that she doesn't know what games are about, let alone Mirror's Edge. She thought ME1 was too hard because apparently the controls were "too difficult" (even though they were perfectly fine, and explained well within the game). That's not surprising, seeing as she herself has admitted to not being a gamer. Now she wants to dumb down the gameplay to where it's literally just GTA with a woman.

To put it into a perspective that you would maybe understand, it's like somebody saying "Animal Crossing is too hard", then making it into GTA. It's ignoring the brand and previous game(s) entirely and just throwing in the most casual types of gameplay.


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## WonderK (Dec 7, 2014)

Reindeer said:


> The movement has brought up a lot of proof of the corruption among gaming "journalists". I don't see how that's nonsense. If these people had any integrity they would not be bribed or bring their own agendas into their work, yet they do. A lot of them don't even know what being a journalist is.
> 
> American news agencies are pretty much owned by political parties, but I doubt people are happy about that either.



It has already been known that journalism was corrupt long before gamergate started. All I read on the news about gamergate is the feminist agenda and that leads to utter controversy.

If you want a solution to corrupt gaming journalism: Stop going to IGN, Gamespot, and Kotaku.


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## M O L K O (Dec 7, 2014)

Mr. L said:


> Isn't this whole thing just sjws and feminazis whining about not having enough games that cater to their demographic and some gaming journalism scandals? Because gaming journalism is a joke of a "profession" and it deserves to die. As for the whining, do they seriously expect developers to cater to their needs/much smaller demographic just because of "MUH EQUALITY"? That's almost as big of a joke as gaming journalism. Anita, Zoe, and the rest of their subhuman sjw feminazi whining club need to understand how the industry works. But I wouldn't expect them to ever learn since Zoe Quinn is the cancer killing the video games industry.


Kinda related question here 

is she the same one that wrote that weird book about her sister or is that someone else?


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## Mr. L (Dec 7, 2014)

WonderK said:


> It has already been known that journalism was corrupt long before gamergate started. All I read on the news about gamergate is the feminist agenda and that leads to utter controversy.
> 
> If you want a solution to corrupt gaming journalism: Stop going to IGN, Gamespot, and Kotaku.


Don't forget Gamesutra, the gaming website that called gaming dead and then a horde of SJWs and feminazis start calling Intel sexist mysogynistic pigs for pulling their gaming-targeted advertising off the site.


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## Reindeer (Dec 7, 2014)

Mr. L said:


> Isn't this whole thing just sjws and feminazis whining about not having enough games that cater to their demographic and some gaming journalism scandals? Because gaming journalism is a joke of a "profession" and it deserves to die. As for the whining, do they seriously expect developers to cater to their needs/much smaller demographic just because of "MUH EQUALITY"? That's almost as big of a joke as gaming journalism. Anita, Zoe, and the rest of their subhuman sjw feminazi whining club need to understand how the industry works. But I wouldn't expect them to ever learn since Zoe Quinn is the cancer killing the video games industry.


The sad thing is that a lot of companies are actually wanting to cater to this small demographic. Hell, even women are suffering under it.

Amy Hennig, the person who wrote for fantastic games like the Blood Omen/Legacy of Kain series and Uncharted (up to 3), as well as directing Uncharted 1 and 3, was fired by the currently-SJW company Naughty Dog because she didn't agree with their feminazi views. She thought it was ridiculous how they thought about feminism and couldn't identify with their claims at all. After all, she, a woman in her 50s, had become successful in the video games industry. How? By simply doing it.

These SJWs and feminazis can complain all they want, but unless they get off their asses and start making quality titles then nothing is going to change. But let's complain about the industry instead, that'll surely fix everything. Never mind the fact that all the "VIDEO GAME INDUSTRY IS MALE-CONTROLLED" is scaring away women from even entering the industry. Good job, guys. All your complaints about how there's not enough women in the video game industry is leading to even less women in the industry.


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## oath2order (Dec 7, 2014)

M O L K O said:


> Kinda related question here
> 
> is she the same one that wrote that weird book about her sister or is that someone else?



The weird book was Lena Dunham


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## M O L K O (Dec 7, 2014)

like idk how to feel about it cuz..gamergate but honestly I see it the same way I see music when it comes to gender issues

> Girl does her thing // omg wow slut wtf how dare u wear that, she's acting as a bad rolemodel
> girl does other thing// wow why isn't she sticking up for herself, wow why can't she be more heroic, why is she all covered up??@?

like if princess peach wants to bake cakes and have a little fun with bowser on the downlow why can't bayonetta kick ass and look sexy af. At the end of the day who cares?!?!

- - - Post Merge - - -



oath2order said:


> The weird book was Lena Dunham



oh ok thanks, for some reason my brain thought it was related to gamergate somehow.


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## Marmoset (Dec 7, 2014)

Could someone possibly post an unbiased, neutral outline of the major problems with GG? I've heard about it but am not well informed and many of the sources seem biased.


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## Mr. L (Dec 7, 2014)

Reindeer said:


> The sad thing is that a lot of companies are actually wanting to cater to this small demographic. Hell, even women are suffering under it.
> 
> Amy Hennig, the person who wrote for fantastic games like the Blood Omen/Legacy of Kain series and Uncharted (up to 3), as well as directing Uncharted 1 and 3, was fired by the currently-SJW company Naughty Dog because she didn't agree with their feminazi views. She thought it was ridiculous how they thought about feminism and couldn't identify with their claims at all. After all, she, a woman in her 50s, had become successful in the video games industry. How? By simply doing it.
> 
> These SJWs and feminazis can complain all they want, but unless they get off their asses and start making quality titles then nothing is going to change. But let's complain about the industry instead, that'll surely fix everything. Never mind the fact that all the "VIDEO GAME INDUSTRY IS MALE-CONTROLLED" is scaring away women from even entering the industry. Good job, guys. All your complaints about how there's not enough women in the video game industry is leading to even less women in the industry.


Spot on. Their whining and criticisms against the industry is about as significant as someone criticizing the Mona Lisa when they've never picked up a paintbrush their entire life.

You want a game that's exactly how you want it to be? Who's stopping you from making it? Oh yeah that's right, you're too incompetent to program and design one so you whine and hope professionals that have successfully been in the industry for decades made it for you, but even they know your games would be crap.

I'd love to see the look on shareholders' faces if they found out a major game studio started making more games directed to these idiots. Better go sell all those shares before they become worthless!


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## Reindeer (Dec 7, 2014)

Marmoset said:


> Could someone possibly post an unbiased, neutral outline of the major problems with GG? I've heard about it but am not well informed and many of the sources seem biased.


The most important points:

Zoe Quinn sleeps with a bunch of gaming journalists to get good reviews for her game, Depression Quest. By her own rules, sleeping with a person while you're also sleeping with a bunch of others but they don't know about it is considered rape. While she was sleeping with these journalists she had a boyfriend she was also regularly sleeping with, hence by her own definition was raping. The boyfriend posted about it on the internet, along with various things to prove his claims.

A while after this scandal comes to light, an investigative journalist finds a mailing list showing that SJW journalists from various sites talk behind the scenes to discuss what they should write about next on their websites. This includes shining light on various games because they are interesting to feminists, ignoring other games completely, as well as the journalists involved with Zoe Quinn showing abnormal interest in her game. It also shows that all the SJWs will be making sexist remarks and jokes in the mailing list, while if anyone would make the same remarks they would get called out on it by these people. There's also lots of talks about what might as well be interpreted as killing off the "gamer" archetype.

tl;dr (and with bias) SJWs/Feminists don't follow their own rules, use gaming journalism to further their own agenda, want video games to be without substance a la Gone Home so that people that enjoy video games as a hobby lose interest


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## Marmoset (Dec 7, 2014)

Reindeer said:


> The most important points:
> 
> Zoe Quinn sleeps with a bunch of gaming journalists to get good reviews for her game, Depression Quest. By her own rules, sleeping with a person while you're also sleeping with a bunch of others but they don't know about it is considered rape. While she was sleeping with these journalists she had a boyfriend she was also regularly sleeping with, hence by her own definition was raping. The boyfriend posted about it on the internet, along with various things to prove his claims.
> 
> ...



Well, for starters the definition of feminism is equality for all, regardless of sex, gender, skin color, etc. If someone claims to be a feminist (Regardless of sex, gender, skin color, etc.) but in reality is supporting 'superiority' of one particular group of people over another, then they're not really a feminist. That's not the definition, so it's better to avoid using that term if they truly are supporting superiority over another group of people.

I do feel like many videogames have sexualized women, but an easy way to fix that is perhaps to offer more clothing styles that include a wider variety and to offer more roles for women (but I do see that many games offer that already, such as WoW, where women and men can be any class). I think overall gaming is improving (Borderlands the Pre-Sequel is an example) in this area. When doing gaming shows/vlogs/etc., you can definitely target a specific audience (like age or genre), but at the same time it shouldn't be biased towards men, women, a particular race, etc. 

Men are also sexualized in videogames (six pack abs, booty shorts, that sort of thing I suppose)- same thing could be applied to help with that.  So long as everyone understands that clothing and gender/sex do not equal inferiority, then that would make things dramatically better. Perhaps this issue is more of 'unrealistic expectations', but then again many videogames are supposed to revolve around fantasy as a mode of escape from reality.

It's quite a complicated issue, really, and spans MUCH farther than just one facet.


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## oath2order (Dec 7, 2014)

I thought feminism was equal rights for women.

Hence the bloody name?


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## Marmoset (Dec 7, 2014)

oath2order said:


> I thought feminism was equal rights for women.
> 
> Hence the bloody name?



Nope. Feminism means equal rights for all, putting everyone at the same level.

The reason why it's called feminism is due to the history behind the movement which goes far back. But essentially it means equality for all. Some people claim that "they aren't feminists, they are universalists/humanitarians/etc" but they all have the same message: equality for all.


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## KarlaKGB (Dec 7, 2014)

ex-boyfriend of zoe quinn made a big blog about how she cheated on him with video game journalists in order to get good reviews of her game. then it exploded.


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## Marmoset (Dec 7, 2014)

KarlaKGB said:


> ex-boyfriend of zoe quinn made a big blog about how she cheated on him with video game journalists in order to get good reviews of her game. then it exploded.



Perhaps then that says more about her individual character then. When I say this, I am focusing explicitly on her manipulation to get views, not her sex life.


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## Redacted (Dec 8, 2014)

OK


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## Dustmop (Dec 8, 2014)

Giantmushroom said:


> That is what it means by definition, but imo a lot of feminists have warped it into an entirely different beast. Quite a large group think that "equality" is getting all of the perks that come with being a woman, while also getting treated as well as men. Simply put, it's a double standard. If I, as a male, held the door open or paid the bill on a date, it is considered "the rules". However, if a woman held the door open for me, (Not trying to offend, *but never in my life have I seen this occur*) I am lazy/inconsiderate.



You srsly need to get out more.


If you get to the door first, you hold the door open for the other person.
If the other person(s) with you are elderly folks, you hold the door for them.
If you have a free hand and the other person doesn't, you hold the door open.
That's just common ****ing courtesy. Trying to assign gender roles to it, in this day and age, is messed up. And I have never once met someone who felt that way about a god damn door.


And as long as my boyfriend makes almost 50% more than I do, he will cover more of the checks. I chip in on what's fair based on *both* of our incomes. If I make more that month, then I pay for more of them. That's something else I have always assumed to be common courtesy. Apparently not.


Although for those that just observe from the outside and make assumptions -- sometimes I wonder how many people see us out together and assume he thinks he "has" to be all chivalrous.
He's a mechanic, but like the cobbler's kids with no shoes, his truck has some problems. Like how my door doesn't open from the inside - so he has to let me out every time we stop somewhere. His truck has a lift-kit and no steps so I need a boost half the time. And his door doesn't open from the outside - so he helps me get in and then I have to open his door. It's just a series of unfortunate ****-alls. lolol.


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## Redacted (Dec 8, 2014)

OK


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## Marmoset (Dec 8, 2014)

Giantmushroom said:


> That is what it means by definition, but imo a lot of feminists have warped it into an entirely different beast. Quite a large group think that "equality" is getting all of the perks that come with being a woman, while also getting treated as well as men. Simply put, it's a double standard. If I, as a male, held the door open or paid the bill on a date, it is considered "the rules". However, if a woman held the door open for me, (Not trying to offend, but never in my life have I seen this occur) I am lazy/inconsiderate. Splitting the bill with her? "No, the guy is always supposed to pay. What is your problem?!" You can't have it both ways and call it equality. While to a lesser extent, the same issue can be applied to males. A guy who sleeps with several women? Wow, he's awesome/badass. A women who sleeps with several guys? Wow, what a whore. Once the SJWs stop being inherently biased/trying to censor any opinions that differ from theirs, I'll listen. With the argument regarding physical harassment, "A guy should NEVER slap a woman, their not as strong!" That same woman slaps a man? "Good for her, she's standing up to the patriarchy!" Tell you what, I have this crazy idea; how about no one, regardless of gender lays a finger on each other? This shouldn't even have to be an issue in the first place. It's rude/disrespectful, it hurts, it doesn't help resolve the situation, and it just makes the person more pissed off. Of course, there is a difference between doing it in spite and doing it as a means of self defense; the latter is justified.



Feminism's goal is to address the double standards that come with being a specific sex/gender/etc. It's about giving an equal voice to all parties invovled. You can be a man and be feminist, and it seems like many of the views you brought up put you in a feminist position in some ways which is good. The idea that feminism is only restricted to women is false. Men and women can help create an equal voice (along with other gender identification groups) for one another. Many of the issues you listed are in fact issues with women stereotypes and also just common courtesy; such as the double standards that come with sex lives. The issue at hand for this thread shouldn't be about how the person in question 'slept around'; that's her own business and she shouldn't be judged for that. It doesn't make her more or less of a person. The only focus should really be on the deception based on false reviews if that's occurring. But it seems like many people on this thread are already focusing on that which is good. 

As for the 'warped' definition, half of it is due to a false definition of feminism but half of it also depends on the issue itself and who it involves. Now, there ARE some women's issues that focus more along the female perspective than male because it is a female problem (such as pregnancy, women's salaries being lower than males in the same field doing the same work, etc) but I won't dive too much into that since it will bring this thread off topic. 

That's really all I have to say for now. If anyone is interested about feminism in general, feel free to PM me so I can help clear up some points, etc.


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## radical6 (Dec 8, 2014)

this thread has gone to hell like my soul


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## Dustmop (Dec 8, 2014)

Giantmushroom said:


> snip



holy poopsie you took all of that way too seriously. calm down.

I think I need to start carrying a sign or something that says, "I use dry humor." :v


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## KarlaKGB (Dec 9, 2014)

i have had plenty of women hold open doors for me and i never got to sex them afterwards so i guess it must be because they were just being polite??


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## Redacted (Dec 9, 2014)

OK


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## Dustmop (Dec 9, 2014)

Giantmushroom said:


> Sorry, I couldn't tell. I don't take things like this personally, I just like to debate. I have a hard time inferring whether something is genuine or not through text.



Haha, it's cool.

I'll just edit my sig to make note that my dry humor always backfires on me. No worries.


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