# Abortion?



## moonford (Jul 1, 2016)

I'm not sure if this is okay to discuss, but I'm really interested on peoples thoughts.
I'm for it.


----------



## piichinu (Jul 1, 2016)

I'm for it


----------



## Liamslash (Jul 1, 2016)

Don't really have an opinion, but if I was to side I would be against it. I understand its a mothers choice but if you don't use protection, that's your fault and the least you can do is adoption. This is a controversial topic so please if you reply keep it civil because I can see this going out of hand.


----------



## piichinu (Jul 1, 2016)

Liamslash said:


> Don't really have an opinion, but if I was to side I would be against it. I understand its a mothers choice but if you don't use protection, that's your fault and the least you can do is adoption. This is a controversial topic so please if you reply keep it civil because I can see this going out of hand.



rape? failed protection?

- - - Post Merge - - -

also not everyone has time to carry a baby around for 9 months just to put it up for adoption


----------



## Nightmares (Jul 1, 2016)

It's fine, I have nothing wrong with it. It's their body, and the baby isn't even born yet *shrug*


----------



## Liamslash (Jul 1, 2016)

shiida said:


> rape? failed protection?



In that case, then I feel like however unfortunate it's not the kids fault either, and I believe the child has a soul and already is someone. I would still say adoption, but its understandable if you pick abortion. But as a boy I can't really say anything.

Edit: I'm kind of inclined to say this as I wasn't planned and my mum could of easily aborted me. So, please don't hate that much.


----------



## Corrie (Jul 1, 2016)

I don't really like the thought of it but it is definitely up to the mother since it is her body.


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 1, 2016)

Liamslash said:


> Don't really have an opinion, but if I was to side I would be against it. I understand its a mothers choice but if you don't use protection, that's your fault and the least you can do is adoption. This is a controversial topic so please if you reply keep it civil because I can see this going out of hand.



even with proper condom use it's only like 98-99% safe, so people can still get pregnant even though they're using protection


----------



## cIementine (Jul 1, 2016)

Liamslash said:


> In that case, then I feel like however unfortunate it's not the kids fault either, and I believe the child has a soul and already is someone. I would still say adoption, but its understandable if you pick abortion. But as a boy I can't really say anything.





Spoiler: tw: rape



i understand and respect your opinion on a potential life being valuable, however a fertilised egg isn't a child. and saying that a woman shouldn't get an abortion even in instances of rape is kind of like saying that the man who raped her has more control over a woman's body than she does. it's not fair for an unborn, undeveloped embryo to have more rights than the woman who it is growing inside.


----------



## Tao (Jul 1, 2016)

Liamslash said:


> Edit: I'm kind of inclined to say this as I wasn't planned and my mum could of easily aborted me. So, please don't hate that much.



I wasn't planned, neither was my sister. I still think that if you don't want it you should be able to get it aborted rather than carry it around for 9 months only to shove it in an orphanage.


----------



## That Zephyr Guy (Jul 1, 2016)

ABORTION THREAD ROUND 2 ELECTRIC BOOGALOO



Anyway, like I said in the previous thread, there's a key difference between people who are for it, and people who are against it:

Those of us who are for it don't believe that life begins at conception and thus abortions are okay.
Those of us who are against it believe life begins at conception and abortion is essentially murder.


Neither side I believe is more morally upstanding than the other, but that being said, I do dislike the stigma that being a single mother has, _especially_ when there's a lot of pressure on women to keep the baby - they're shamed no matter which option they decide to take. This is even more annoying when you see both sides from the same person, which leads me to believe these people only really care about the baby while it's still a fetus.


_I_ personally think they should only be done if necessary such as in cases where someone has been raped, their protection failed, or they just cannot care for a child / go through with the 9 months of pregnancy. 

Anything else just seems really irresponsible to me, like come on, a child is a few hundred thousand dollars, but a box of condoms is only like, 15 bucks.


----------



## Liamslash (Jul 1, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> even with proper condom use it's only like 98-99% safe, so people can still get pregnant even though they're using protection



Just use a plan B pill or something, It's better as long as it isn't a fetus that's almost developed or actually forming.
But I guess that's almost all abortion cases so I'm okay with that. Because there's a difference between getting rid of an egg and killing a baby in my opinion.


----------



## moonford (Jul 1, 2016)

That Zephyr Guy said:


> ABORTION THREAD ROUND 2 ELECTRIC BOOGALOO
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Woops, didn't know there was one. >.<


----------



## namiieco (Jul 1, 2016)

I don't mind, it's the persons choice.


----------



## Yui Z (Jul 1, 2016)

I think that it should be seriously considered by the mother first, but she should still have the right. Abortion can also have a massive impact on the woman's mental health. It's not just the unborn child that is affected.


----------



## Bowie (Jul 1, 2016)

I've always been on the fence about this subject, because it's hard for me to determine which life is more important, but you could argue that when you pass somebody in the street without having sex with them, you're denying a child a life, the same as how having an abortion denies a child a life.

I don't think anyone should have a say in what a woman does with her body.


----------



## cIementine (Jul 1, 2016)

Liamslash said:


> Just use a plan B pill or something, It's better as long as it isn't a fetus that's almost developed or actually forming.
> But I guess that's almost all abortion cases so I'm okay with that. Because there's a difference between getting rid of an egg and killing a baby in my opinion.



i'm pretty sure all abortions are done before the embryo is at the stage of being a foetus lmao? only exception is if there's a late stage miscarriage.


----------



## Locket (Jul 1, 2016)

I think it's ok depending on the situation. My cousin knows someone who got pregnant three times, but never told her dad (a seventh grade teacher at my school). She got abortions each time.

If the mother decides that she won't be able to properly care for the baby, then it is for the better of both the mom and the baby. 

If they just don't want the child, it's still their choice.


----------



## Twisterheart (Jul 1, 2016)

I'm against it for myself, meaning I could never go through with one. But other people are always going to, and it isn't really my business.


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 1, 2016)

My opinion is that if you get pregnant by rape, it's ok, but if you do it intentionally and get the baby on purpose no it's not okay, if you don't want it you shouldn't have had sex in the first place, unless the condom broke, that isn't your fault, so that's my opinion

- - - Post Merge - - -

However if you want to get rid of the baby give it up for adoption is it really that hard? At least the baby gets a home instead of dying


----------



## Liamslash (Jul 1, 2016)

pumpkins said:


> i'm pretty sure all abortions are done before the embryo is at the stage of being a foetus lmao? only exception is if there's a late stage miscarriage.



Yeah I know, which is what I'm okay with. But in some cases people get a late stage abortion, I guess.
As I said originally I'm swaying both ways but if I was to pick a side it would be anti-abortion because of that factor.


----------



## That Zephyr Guy (Jul 1, 2016)

pumpkins said:


> i'm pretty sure all abortions are done before the embryo is at the stage of being a foetus lmao? only exception is if there's a late stage miscarriage.



Actually, abortions are legal up until viability unfortunately, which can be as late as 24 weeks. At that point, it actually looks like a baby, and in some cases CAN BE a baby. Although most abortions happen during the 12th week, where it still looks like a thumb-sized alien.


To be honest, that needs to be dialed back a whole lot. 24 weeks seems really _really_ late for an abortion.




Edit: I actually just read up more on it. Abortion IS legal up to 24 weeks, but only in extreme cases. It's usually denied past the 14th week, so yes, there is very rarely any baby killing unless it poses a threat to the mother.


----------



## That Zephyr Guy (Jul 1, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> My opinion is that if you get pregnant by rape, it's ok, *but if you do it intentionally and get the baby on purpose *no it's not okay, if you don't want it you shouldn't have had sex in the first place, unless the condom broke, that isn't your fault, so that's my opinion



who in the world gets pregnant just to have an abortion

tell me


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 1, 2016)

Liamslash said:


> Just use a plan B pill or something, It's better as long as it isn't a fetus that's almost developed or actually forming.
> But I guess that's almost all abortion cases so I'm okay with that. Because there's a difference between getting rid of an egg and killing a baby in my opinion.



yeah it's definitely a difference between getting rid of an egg and killing a baby! for one, the baby is already a fully dwveloped human and out of the body! but a fetus isn't a baby. and besides it's normally not legal to get an abortion when the brain is starting to be developed n stuff. there are rules to that so tbh no, you don't kill babies when you get an abortion. you just get rid of something that one day would be a baby otherwise.


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 1, 2016)

That Zephyr Guy said:


> who in the world gets pregnant just to have an abortion
> 
> tell me



I never said that? I said if they had sex in intention to have the baby but then decides they can't take care of it no it's not okay


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 1, 2016)

lol i might have  confused the words but w fetus i meant embryo idk if theres a huge difference between the two in english sorry


----------



## Yui Z (Jul 1, 2016)

Bowie said:


> I've always been on the fence about this subject, because it's hard for me to determine which life is more important, but you could argue that when you pass somebody in the street without having sex with them, you're denying a child a life, the same as how having an abortion denies a child a life.
> 
> I don't think anyone should have a say in what a woman does with her body.



I wouldn't say that passing someone in the street being denied life is comparable to abortion. Not everyone even has the capability to reproduce and when a child is being aborted, fertilisation has happened already. Whether or not you believe that this is morally the beginning of a life that deserves human rights is debatable and a matter of opinion.


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 1, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> I never said that? I said if they had sex in intention to have the baby but then decides they can't take care of it no it's not okay



but.... giving birth to a baby .. and then not being able to take carw of it... is okay..? i think it's very understandable that someone who knows they can't take care of a child gets an abortion instead of giving birth to it and then not being able to give it an ok life


----------



## Soigne (Jul 1, 2016)

I'm for it.


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 1, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> but.... giving birth to a baby .. and then not being able to take carw of it... is okay..? i think it's very understandable that someone who knows they can't take care of a child gets an abortion instead of giving birth to it and then not being able to give it an ok life



Can't you just give it up for adoption? Logical explanation, instead of killing the baby whom of which you wanted, but then changed your mind


----------



## Liamslash (Jul 1, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> yeah it's definitely a difference between getting rid of an egg and killing a baby! for one, the baby is already a fully dwveloped human and out of the body! but a fetus isn't a baby. and besides it's normally not legal to get an abortion when the brain is starting to be developed n stuff. there are rules to that so tbh no, you don't kill babies when you get an abortion. you just get rid of something that one day would be a baby otherwise.



A fetus is a embryo which is 8 weeks+ in development, which means that its formed/starting to grow. So in that case, tell me what changes in the time that a woman goes into labor, what determines when a fetus becomes a baby, or when they are premature, then are they still a fetus so it would be okay to kill? Or are we going to go back to the roman days when it's okay to kill babies and infanticide Acts are justifiable.


----------



## cIementine (Jul 1, 2016)

That Zephyr Guy said:


> Actually, abortions are legal up until viability unfortunately, which can be as late as 24 weeks. At that point, it actually looks like a baby, and in some cases CAN BE a baby. Although most abortions happen during the 12th week, where it still looks like a thumb-sized alien.
> 
> 
> To be honest, that needs to be dialed back a whole lot. 24 weeks seems really _really_ late for an abortion.



it seems that late stage abortions are less common here in the uk. most are done at around the 13 week stage if memory serves me, and most of the rest done before 20 weeks. in that case, 24 weeks seems to be an option for medical complications in the pregnancy. i feel the woman should still be able to choose, but should consider that the life of the foetus is now developing, but shouldn't be seen as more 'sacred' than her own life. i also agree it should be dialled back, with the exception of medical complications.


----------



## piichinu (Jul 1, 2016)

Liamslash said:


> Yeah I know, which is what I'm okay with. But in some cases people get a late stage abortion, I guess.
> As I said originally I'm swaying both ways but if I was to pick a side it would be anti-abortion because of that factor.





visibleghost said:


> yeah it's definitely a difference between getting rid of an egg and killing a baby! for one, the baby is already a fully dwveloped human and out of the body! but a fetus isn't a baby. and besides it's normally not legal to get an abortion when the brain is starting to be developed n stuff. there are rules to that so tbh no, you don't kill babies when you get an abortion. you just get rid of something that one day would be a baby otherwise.





Jared:3 said:


> Can't you just give it up for adoption? Logical explanation, instead of killing the baby whom of which you wanted, but then changed your mind



Not. Everyone. Has time to. Carry. A baby in their uterus. For 9 months. Go through a ****ton of pain. And then give it up.

Edit: ignore the first two quotes


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 1, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> Can't you just give it up for adoption? Logical explanation, instead of killing the baby whom of which you wanted, but then changed your mind



so the pregnant person should be pregnant for many more months, give birth to a baby and then put it up for adoption? that's just a lot of suffering for the pregnant person. the aborted thingy (w/e it's called lmao i'm giving up on my english) isn't suffering because it doesn't feel anything, it doesn't think......


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 1, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> so the pregnant person should be pregnant for many more months, give birth to a baby and then put it up for adoption? that's just a lot of suffering for the pregnant person. the aborted thingy (w/e it's called lmao i'm giving up on my english) isn't suffering because it doesn't feel anything, it doesn't think......



Ok but don't you want the baby to live? Shouldn't it deserve to get a human life instead of not getting a chance?


----------



## piichinu (Jul 1, 2016)

Trust me it has no feelings it won't get upset


----------



## That Zephyr Guy (Jul 1, 2016)

pumpkins said:


> it seems that late stage abortions are less common here in the uk. most are done at around the 13 week stage if memory serves me, and most of the rest done before 20 weeks. in that case, 24 weeks seems to be an option for medical complications in the pregnancy. i feel the woman should still be able to choose, but should consider that the life of the foetus is now developing, but shouldn't be seen as more 'sacred' than her own life. i also agree it should be dialled back, with the exception of medical complications.



I editted my post. I misread some of the articles I was reading. 24 is the limit on necessary abortions (for the mother's safety)

Around 14 is the limit for normal abortions.


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 1, 2016)

shiida said:


> Not. Everyone. Has time to. Carry. A baby in their uterus. For 9 months. Go through a ****ton of pain. And then give it up.
> 
> Edit: ignore the first two quotes



Read the quote I said in my latest post its to both you and the other girl

- - - Post Merge - - -

Sorry I meant male, so sorry about that


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 1, 2016)

Liamslash said:


> A fetus is a embryo which is 8 weeks+ in development, which means that its formed/starting to grow. So in that case, tell me what changes in the time that a woman goes into labor, what determines when a fetus becomes a baby, or when they are premature, then are they still a fetus so it would be okay to kill? Or are we going to go back to the roman days when it's okay to kill babies and infanticide Acts are justifiable.



yeah lol sorry i messed up the words. lmao. i know that it's considered alive from like week 22 (don't quote me on this i'm just trying to remember my old biology lessons) or something, i just didn't know the proper words. the thing is, abortions that late are only allowed in very special cases. 

my mom knows a woman who got an abortion very late. (like around week 20-23 i think?). she got a gravestone for him and named him because to her he was a baby. but the doctors said that if he lived he wouldn't live for longer than a few years because he had heart problems and stuff. so she got an abortion really late because if he would have been born it would just have been bad for everyone. idk this might be kinda unrelated but, like, no one is like "oh nvm i don't want the baby" after 5 months of being pregnant and then they get an abortion.


----------



## f11 (Jul 1, 2016)

I'm for it, I mean it is the women's body and the bundle of cells in her isn't even conscious yet.


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 1, 2016)

And btw I only meant if you got the baby by intention, if you actually wanted but then changed your mind, then that's your fault, you should go through the pain, that's what I meant


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 1, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> Read the quote I said in my latest post its to both you and the other girl
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> Sorry I meant male, so sorry about that



sure you didn't do that on purpose....



Jared:3 said:


> Ok but don't you want the baby to live? Shouldn't it deserve to get a human life instead of not getting a chance?



well, for one, it's not a baby. it's a thing that would one day become a baby if it got the chance to develop that far. and considering the suffering the pregnant person will have to go through to get it out to give it its chance i don't think it's worth it. obviously every pregnant person can decide what they feel, many people decide to not get an abortion even though they don't want a child because they think it's immoral. and there's nothing wrong with that. but people who don't want a child and would like to get an abortion absolutely should be allowed to get one.


----------



## Liamslash (Jul 1, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> yeah lol sorry i messed up the words. lmao. i know that it's considered alive from like week 22 (don't quote me on this i'm just trying to remember my old biology lessons) or something, i just didn't know the proper words. the thing is, abortions that late are only allowed in very special cases.
> 
> my mom knows a woman who got an abortion very late. (like around week 20-23 i think?). she got a gravestone for him and named him because to her he was a baby. but the doctors said that if he lived he wouldn't live for longer than a few years because he had heart problems and stuff. so she got an abortion really late because if he would have been born it would just have been bad for everyone. idk this might be kinda unrelated but, like, no one is like "oh nvm i don't want the baby" after 5 months of being pregnant and then they get an abortion.



8 weeks old is what it tends to be referred too, and I was still thinking of my opinion when I started posting here.
The only justifiable form of abortion to me is the plan B pill or whatever its called. There may well be people that decide to abort later on for whatever reason.


----------



## Mega_Cabbage (Jul 1, 2016)

I think that it if there is free birth control available, then abortion shouldn't be needed as much. Contraceptives are there if you do not want to get pregnant whether you have consented sex or get raped.


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 1, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> sure you didn't do that on purpose....
> 
> 
> 
> well, for one, it's not a baby. it's a thing that would one day become a baby if it got the chance to develop that far. and considering the suffering the pregnant person will have to go through to get it out to give it its chance i don't think it's worth it. obviously every pregnant person can decide what they feel, many people decide to not get an abortion even though they don't want a child because they think it's immoral. and there's nothing wrong with that. but people who don't want a child and would like to get an abortion absolutely should be allowed to get one.



Yes I agree however if the person wanted the baby but then decides no, the woman should go through the suffering and deliver it, basically what I said in my last post

- - - Post Merge - - -

And I actually believe in my opinion when the baby isn't exaclty there yet, it still is, and God is making it for you, and it's your child


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 1, 2016)

Mega_Cabbage said:


> I think that it if there is free birth control available, then abortion shouldn't be needed as much. Contraceptives are there if you do not want to get pregnant whether you have consented sex or get raped.



oh yeah let me just take a pill every day for years in case i get raped so i don't have to get an abortion because i don't want a child! nice!

most of the time people don't use abortion instead of regular birth control. it's not exactly nice to get one, many people get emotional and it can feel bad in your body (from what i've heard you can get cramps n stuff, also it takes quite a long time).
abortions are honestly needed. if someone forgot to use a condom or something like that still doesn't mean they deserve to be pregnant when they don't want to be pregnant. 
 i definitely don't think it's okay to think "well abortions exist so i don't need birth control", but honestly that's probably not a very common thought. and it definitely doesn't mean that we should get rid of abortions.


----------



## moonford (Jul 1, 2016)

Liamslash said:


> 8 weeks old is what it tends to be referred too, and I was still thinking of my opinion when I started posting here.
> The only justifiable form of abortion to me is the plan B pill or whatever its called. There may well be people that decide to abort later on for whatever reason.



In your first post you said you didn't really have an opinion on the subject, what changed?


----------



## Soraru (Jul 1, 2016)

im all for the _choice_ of it. im not saying that people who are pregnant should abort. but it really should be up to the woman's choice of either wanting the baby or not. the fact that people don't want to give the woman a choice, is a problem. 

like who are you to say to a complete strange whether they should abort or keep it. your not entitled to their body, their choices, and their developing embryo.


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 1, 2016)

Actually tbh that's how I was born, I was actually born to a really poor family who couldn't take care of me but my birth mother decided to not get me aborted and she gave birth to me and gave me up for adoption


----------



## Liamslash (Jul 1, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> oh yeah let me just take a pill every day for years in case i get raped so i don't have to get an abortion because i don't want a child! nice!
> 
> most of the time people don't use abortion instead of regular birth control. it's not exactly nice to get one, many people get emotional and it can feel bad in your body (from what i've heard you can get cramps n stuff, also it takes quite a long time).
> abortions are honestly needed. if someone forgot to use a condom or something like that still doesn't mean they deserve to be pregnant when they don't want to be pregnant.
> i definitely don't think it's okay to think "well abortions exist so i don't need birth control", but honestly that's probably not a very common thought. and it definitely doesn't mean that we should get rid of abortions.



How can you "forget" to use a condom... I don't know how much more I can say before this gets very NSFW.


----------



## moonford (Jul 1, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> Yes I agree however if the person wanted the baby but then decides no, the woman should go through the suffering and deliver it, basically what I said in my last post
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> And I actually believe in my opinion when the baby isn't exaclty there yet, it still is, and God is making it for you, and it's your child



Please don't bring a possibly fake deity into these conversations, not everything revolves around it.


----------



## piichinu (Jul 1, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> Actually tbh that's how I was born, I was actually born to a really poor family who couldn't take care of me but my birth mother decided to not get me aborted and she gave birth to me and gave me up for adoption



This is true I delivered him


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 1, 2016)

Whiteflamingo said:


> Please don't bring a possibly fake deity into these conversations, not everything revolves around it.



How am I brining fake deity into the discussion? Did I say everything revolves around it?


----------



## Liamslash (Jul 1, 2016)

Whiteflamingo said:


> In your first post you said you didn't really have an opinion on the subject, what changed?



I don't really have an opinion on it, but I have been deciding as I go along. I have been swaying left and right on this subject, but now I'm toward anti more because it reminds me how easily I could just not exist because my mum only knew my dad for a couple of months and she accidentally got pregnant but didn't want to abort me.


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 1, 2016)

shiida said:


> This is true I delivered him



But my mother was 18 when she delivered me, your 16, mother you DEAGED? Lol


----------



## Mega_Cabbage (Jul 1, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> oh yeah let me just take a pill every day for years in case i get raped so i don't have to get an abortion because i don't want a child! nice!
> 
> most of the time people don't use abortion instead of regular birth control. it's not exactly nice to get one, many people get emotional and it can feel bad in your body (from what i've heard you can get cramps n stuff, also it takes quite a long time).
> abortions are honestly needed. if someone forgot to use a condom or something like that still doesn't mean they deserve to be pregnant when they don't want to be pregnant.
> i definitely don't think it's okay to think "well abortions exist so i don't need birth control", but honestly that's probably not a very common thought. and it definitely doesn't mean that we should get rid of abortions.


I don't really see a problem with taking a pill everyday if it's free.
Yes, but people should understand that every time they have sex, there is a chance of getting pregnant even if they don't want to be pregnant.
I never said we need to completely get rid of abortions. I'm saying that if people took more precautionary measures to prevent pregnancy, then there would be less abortions.


----------



## seliph (Jul 1, 2016)

I'm not gonna get into it on another abortion thread but two things:

1. Contraceptives and _any_ form of birth control do not always work. Whether it's condoms, birth control, the morning after pill... none are 100%.

2. No one has sex with the intention of having a baby only to change their mind after, you're making up a situation to support your weightless argument. Plus, even if this did happen, the change of mind would have likely happened because of a change in their mental, physical, or financial ability to go through with the pregnancy. If by chance neither of those were the case, the mother still should be able to have an abortion because as it was said multiple times, carrying a baby for 9 months is a huge weight (literally) and responsibility.


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 1, 2016)

Liamslash said:


> How can you "forget" to use a condom... I don't know how much more I can say before this gets very NSFW.



lol whatever, even if you're like "f**k it, let's not use a condom" you don't deserve to be pregnant for 9 months and then give birth to a baby you did not want. yes it's irresponsible af and people should always use birth control if they don't want a child, but when a pregnancy can be prevented by getting an abortion i don't see why anyone would want to force someone to be pregnant and give birth to a child when they don't want to be pregnant.


----------



## moonford (Jul 1, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> How am I brining fake deity into the discussion? Did I say everything revolves around it?



You mentioned "God" when it was not needed and no you didn't say everything revolves but most serious discussions we have on these forums mention it for some reason. : P


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 1, 2016)

nvll said:


> I'm not gonna get into it on another abortion thread but two things:
> 
> 1. Contraceptives and _any_ form of birth control do not always work. Whether it's condoms, birth control, the morning after pill... none are 100%.
> 
> 2. No one has sex with the intention of having a baby only to change their mind after, you're making up a situation to support your weightless argument. Plus, even if this did happen, the change of mind would have likely happened because of a change in their mental, physical, or financial ability to go through with the pregnancy. If by chance neither of those were the case, the mother still should be able to have an abortion because as it was said multiple times, carrying a baby for 9 months is a huge weight (literally) and responsibility.



How do you know? That happened with my birth parents, so you can't say that dosent happen LOL

- - - Post Merge - - -



Whiteflamingo said:


> You mentioned "God" when it was not needed and no you didn't say everything revolves but most serious discussions we have on these forums mention it for some reason. : P



Ok so is there a problem? I said that your basically killing the living being God wanted you to have, I can say whatever I want nobody else but you said anything


----------



## Liamslash (Jul 1, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> lol whatever, even if you're like "f**k it, let's not use a condom" you don't deserve to be pregnant for 9 months and then give birth to a baby you did not want. yes it's irresponsible af and people should always use birth control if they don't want a child, but when a pregnancy can be prevented by getting an abortion i don't see why anyone would want to force someone to be pregnant and give birth to a child when they don't want to be pregnant.



Then don't do that. Honestly if you're that immature if you think that then I feel sorry for the embryo/fetus because who does that? In that case anyway, I say just get a plan B pill and try and grow up.


----------



## Miii (Jul 1, 2016)

I'm for it, but only in the early stages of pregnancy before development of the brain and nerves begins. When the fetus is still the size of a jellybean and looks like a dinosaur, it is genderless, can't see, can't hear, can't feel, can't taste or smell, and can't perceive anything about themselves or their environment.

Past the first trimester, I absolutely think it should be illegal because the fetus's brain and nerves will be developed enough to feel pain.


----------



## moonford (Jul 1, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> How do you know? That happened with my birth parents, so you can't say that dosent happen LOL
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



Okay, I don't really care now, bye.


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 1, 2016)

Mega_Cabbage said:


> I don't really see a problem with taking a pill everyday if it's free.
> Yes, but people should understand that every time they have sex, there is a chance of getting pregnant even if they don't want to be pregnant.
> I never said we need to completely get rid of abortions. I'm saying that if people took more precautionary measures to prevent pregnancy, then there would be less abortions.



you do know that there are side effects to taking pills, right..? many people get negatively affected by them and i think it's really unreasonable to expect everyone who's able to get pregnant to take pills every day even when they're not sexually active. 

and yeah if people made sure to always use contraceptives there would be less abortions, but abortions are still very much needed. i think that they at least in sweden are working towards lowering the number of abortions, not by making it harder to get one, but instead of having good sex ed and stuff like that.


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 1, 2016)

Whiteflamingo said:


> Okay, I don't really care now, bye.



Ok bye have a nice day  (sarcasm)


----------



## Liamslash (Jul 1, 2016)

Whiteflamingo said:


> Okay, I don't really care now, bye.



Remember, we don't want this locked so keep calm.

Guys please I'm having a nice conversation here so please keep it nice before it gets locked and ruins it for the rest of us.


----------



## Fleshy (Jul 1, 2016)

I'm for abortion in certian circumstances, like when someone's pregnant and doesn't want to be, for whatever reason that may be.


----------



## piichinu (Jul 1, 2016)

Yeah guys I don't know if you know but please keep calm also I don't want to be pregnant so I don't get fat that is just my opinion actually 

- - - Post Merge - - -

Really


----------



## seliph (Jul 1, 2016)

Also re: "forgetting to use a condom" they could be drunk or high so there's a situation



Jared:3 said:


> How do you know? That happened with my birth parents, so you can't say that dosent happen LOL



If it happened with both your parents how are you here responding to me my guy


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 1, 2016)

shiida said:


> Yeah guys I don't know if you know but please keep calm also I don't want to be pregnant so I don't get fat that is just my opinion actually
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> Really


Yeah not to mention how your belly looks after you have given birth, you have to lose basically all of it

- - - Post Merge - - -



nvll said:


> Also re: "forgetting to use a condom" they could be drunk or high so there's a situation
> 
> 
> 
> If it happened with both your parents how are you here responding to me my guy



You basically said it was a made up argument when it actually happened, so you can't say its weightless as I'm referring to what you said


----------



## Nightmares (Jul 1, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> Yeah not to mention how your belly looks after you have given birth, you have to lose basically all of it



Doesn't it go...like....down....by a load after you give birth? (


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 1, 2016)

Nightmares said:


> Doesn't it go...like....down....by a load after you give birth? (



Yes but the after weight is still there


----------



## piichinu (Jul 1, 2016)

I agree, the fact that your belly looks so strange actually really is rediculous


----------



## Mega_Cabbage (Jul 1, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> you do know that there are side effects to taking pills, right..? many people get negatively affected by them and i think it's really unreasonable to expect everyone who's able to get pregnant to take pills every day even when they're not sexually active.
> 
> and yeah if people made sure to always use contraceptives there would be less abortions, but abortions are still very much needed. i think that they at least in sweden are working towards lowering the number of abortions, not by making it harder to get one, but instead of having good sex ed and stuff like that.



Yeah, but some of the side effects can be good such as clearing up acne, regulating periods, and etc. Despite the possible side effects, many more choose to take it.  Of course there are going to be exceptions, but the government wouldn't have released/promoted the drug if the benefits didn't outweigh the costs in effect of the general audience. However, you are free to choose what you believe.


----------



## seliph (Jul 1, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> You basically said it was a made up argument when it actually happened, so you can't say its weightless as I'm referring to what you said



It is weightless because it's hardly an argument.
By the sounds of it your mom didn't just go "Oh nevermind xD", she realized she was too poor and therefore didn't keep you. However not everyone can go through with a pregnancy in that case because again, not only is carrying a baby a ton of work, but it's not like you can just give your child up for adoption with no regrets and no emotional attachment to it and thus people get abortions to avoid that.


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 1, 2016)

nvll said:


> It is weightless because it's hardly an argument.
> By the sounds of it your mom didn't just go "Oh nevermind xD", she realized she was too poor and therefore didn't keep you. However not everyone can go through with a pregnancy in that case because again, not only is carrying a baby a ton of work, but it's not like you can just give your child up for adoption with no regrets and no emotional attachment to it and thus people get abortions to avoid that.


Yeah I should have not said that your right I agree with you 100%


----------



## RainbowCherry (Jul 1, 2016)

Ayy, this again - let's hope the thread doesn't explode like last time.

I think it's completely fine - I value the life of the parents above something that isn't even fully alive yet, personally.


----------



## Tensu (Jul 1, 2016)

Lol not this again. I'm not for it.


----------



## Kalik (Jul 1, 2016)

My opinion is very unpopular. I see a baby/fetus as a parasite. It feeds off the mother's nutrients and attacks her body. The womb is not a safe place. Thanks to evolution, the womb is designed to attack the baby, and if it's weak, it dies. Human fetuses and babies have developed to the point that they fight back. They control the mother's hormones. They feed off nutrients she gains. Almost every other mammal on the face of the earth can "trigger" a natural abortion if she's in a situation where she can't take care of the offspring. Humans cannot do this. 

Aside from that, the baby causes a lot of hectic side effects to the mother's body that she may not be mentally or physically equipped to handle. Weight gain, bloating, swelling joints, cravings, stretch marks, nausea, etc. I firmly believe it is the woman's, and ONLY the woman's choice to have an abortion. It is her body that is hosting a parasite for 9 months. It is her life that has to change. Being pregnant makes you a risk to employers and they will not hire you because of the maternity leave they'll be required to give you. 

I do belive the father, should he want the child and be in a stable relationship with the woman, should have some sort of say. I think it's a huge decision that the woman should talk to him about. But ultimately, it's still her decision. Her body.


----------



## Aniko (Jul 1, 2016)

I'm not for it but I'm not against it. It would be nice if we were living in a world where we didn't need it.


----------



## Tao (Jul 1, 2016)

Mega_Cabbage said:


> I think that it if there is free birth control available, then abortion shouldn't be needed as much. Contraceptives are there if you do not want to get pregnant whether you have consented sex *or get raped.*



Rapist: "I'm going to rape you"

Victim: "Okay, but before you do" **hands condom** "Could you put on this condom I got free from the clinic?"

Rapist: "Oh, of course!" **slides it on** "Safe sex is good sex, even if it's not consensual!"


----------



## Mega_Cabbage (Jul 1, 2016)

Tao said:


> Rapist: "I'm going to rape you"
> 
> Victim: "Okay, but before you do" **hands condom** "Could you put on this condom I got free from the clinic?"
> 
> Rapist: "Oh, of course!" **slides it on** "Safe sex is good sex, even if it's not consensual!"



There are oral contraceptives you know? XD


----------



## KarlaKGB (Jul 1, 2016)

o boy barely 2 hours and already 10 pages good stuff guys


----------



## Koden (Jul 1, 2016)

It's the mothers choice to decide what she wants to do.


----------



## Paperboy012305 (Jul 1, 2016)

I'm highly against it, and so is my mom. Let the baby have a F-ing chance to live life on earth will ya?


----------



## Stalfos (Jul 1, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> Ok so is there a problem? I said that your basically killing the living being God wanted you to have, I can say whatever I want nobody else but you said anything



What if god doesn't excist then. Would that change your stance on the subject?


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 1, 2016)

Stalfos said:


> What if god doesn't excist then. Would that change your stance on the subject?



No not really, it wouldn't change at all


----------



## Nightmares (Jul 1, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> No not really, it wouldn't change at all



How would it not change


----------



## zoetrope (Jul 1, 2016)

I'm staunchly pro choice but generally dislike abortion. 

If only contraceptives and useful sex education were more available...  that's what pro life people are fighting for, right? /s


----------



## Fleshy (Jul 1, 2016)

You don't abort babies, you abort embryos and fetuses. 

I haven't read through all the posts here but I think abortion is an amazing thing. Before abortion was avalible as it is now (in most western countries at least) people used to use coat hangers, knives, pretty much anything to get rid of the unwanted thing inside them, often killing the pregnant person. Now that doesn't have to happen, people who don't want a child can safely get rid of them as a fetus, causing no harm to anyone. I understand why people wouldn't want to get an abortion themselves, but I don't understand why people are against other people having one, it's their body after all. The world is way overpopulated as it is, why advocate bringing unwanted children into it?


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 1, 2016)

Nightmares said:


> How would it not change



Because your still giving birth to a baby that your basically deciding to throw away, this argument already was settled btw, but still, your killing it

- - - Post Merge - - -



FleshyBro said:


> You don't abort babies, you abort embryos and fetuses.
> 
> I haven't read through all the posts here but I think abortion is an amazing thing. Before abortion was avalible as it is now (in most western countries at least) people used to use coat hangers, knives, pretty much anything to get rid of the unwanted thing inside them, often killing the pregnant person. Now that doesn't have to happen, people who don't want a child can safely get rid of them as a fetus, causing no harm to anyone. I understand why people wouldn't want to get an abortion themselves, but I don't understand why people are against other people having one, it's their body after all. The world is way overpopulated as it is, why advocate bringing unwanted children into it?


The earth is 75% water, if we had more land we wouldn't be overpopulated


----------



## Nightmares (Jul 1, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> Because your still giving birth to a baby that your basically deciding to throw away, this argument already was settled btw, but still, your killing it



You said it's God desicion, but if God doesn't exist, your point is still valid lmao


----------



## RainbowCherry (Jul 1, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> The earth is 75% water, if we had more land we wouldn't be overpopulated



Not saying anything about your opinions, but does that matter? Can you turn the water into land?


----------



## Tensu (Jul 1, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> You don't abort babies, you abort embryos and fetuses.
> 
> I haven't read through all the posts here but I think abortion is an amazing thing. Before abortion was avalible as it is now (in most western countries at least) people used to use coat hangers, knives, pretty much anything to get rid of the unwanted thing inside them, often killing the pregnant person. Now that doesn't have to happen, people who don't want a child can safely get rid of them as a fetus, causing no harm to anyone. I understand why people wouldn't want to get an abortion themselves, but I don't understand why people are against other people having one, it's their body after all. The world is way overpopulated as it is, why advocate bringing unwanted children into it?



Unwanted children? That sounds so ****ed up lmao


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 1, 2016)

Nightmares said:


> You said it's God desicion, but if God doesn't exist, your point is still valid lmao



Exactley my point is still valid, but I'm not sure about God we should call him Jesus instead


----------



## Nightmares (Jul 1, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> Exactley my point is still valid, but I'm not sure about God we should call him Jesus instead



What are you talking about LMAO 

How is it valid if there's no God??

- - - Post Merge - - -

Or 'Jesus'


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 1, 2016)

RainbowCherry said:


> Not saying anything about your opinions, but does that matter? Can you turn the water into land?



Yes it does matter, and I'm not saying we can do that, but I'm saying that if we had more land we wouldn't be overpopulated, we would be well suited

- - - Post Merge - - -



Nightmares said:


> What are you talking about LMAO
> 
> How is it valid if there's no God??
> 
> ...



You literally just said my point is valid


----------



## zoetrope (Jul 1, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> The earth is 75% water, if we had more land we wouldn't be overpopulated



Soooo... what's your solution to this dilemma?


----------



## Fleshy (Jul 1, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> The earth is 75% water, if we had more land we wouldn't be overpopulated



but we don't have more land? I'm sure if we could just pluck extra land out of nowhere we would.


----------



## Nightmares (Jul 1, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> Yes it does matter, and I'm not saying we can do that, but I'm saying that if we had more land we wouldn't be overpopulated, we would be well suited
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



No, I didn't, I'm quoting you xD


----------



## cIementine (Jul 1, 2016)

Mega_Cabbage said:


> There are oral contraceptives you know? XD





Spoiler: tw rape



i doubt anyone who has been raped is going to think 'wow, can't believe i just got raped. better take that morning after pill'. pretty sure they're going to be emotionally traumatised and hopefully in contact with the police, and more concerned about their wellbeing. the weight of being raped is enough to handle at a time, never mind thinking about potential pregnancy. that's like saying 'yeah, you got raped, but did you use contraception? no? lol then it's your fault, too bad :/'


----------



## Tensu (Jul 1, 2016)

The world isn't overpopulated. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere (don't quote me on this) that all of humanity can comfortably live in the state of Texas.


----------



## RainbowCherry (Jul 1, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> Yes it does matter, and I'm not saying we can do that, but I'm saying that if we had more land we wouldn't be overpopulated, we would be well suited
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



But we don't and can't have more land. It's like mentioning if we had flour we could bake more cakes... in a world where you can't get flour. Sure, it's ideal, but who the hell cares?


----------



## seliph (Jul 1, 2016)

Azure said:


> Unwanted children? That sounds so ****ed up lmao



This just in: not everyone wants a child.


----------



## Stalfos (Jul 1, 2016)

RainbowCherry said:


> Not saying anything about your opinions, but does that matter? Can you turn the water into land?



God can.


----------



## Tensu (Jul 1, 2016)

nvll said:


> This just in: not everyone wants a child.



Yeah, but there are people who do.


----------



## Fleshy (Jul 1, 2016)

Azure said:


> Unwanted children? That sounds so ****ed up lmao



I know it does, but it's true. If someone does not want to have a child but they keep them, who knows what that childs life will be like? Not to be rude or anything, but if abortion wasn't a thing, there would be way more unwanted children in the world.


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 1, 2016)

Nightmares said:


> No, I didn't, I'm quoting you xD



Oh then nevermind XD

- - - Post Merge - - -



RainbowCherry said:


> But we don't and can't have more land. It's like mentioning if we had flour we could bake more cakes... in a world where you can't get flour. Sure, it's ideal, but who the hell cares?



What do you mean? We have more land than we did thousands of years ago


----------



## Liamslash (Jul 1, 2016)

pumpkins said:


> Spoiler: tw rape
> 
> 
> 
> i doubt anyone who has been raped is going to think 'wow, can't believe i just got raped. better take that morning after pill'. pretty sure they're going to be emotionally traumatised and hopefully in contact with the police, and more concerned about their wellbeing. the weight of being raped is enough to handle at a time, never mind thinking about potential pregnancy. that's like saying 'yeah, you got raped, but did you use contraception? no? lol then it's your fault, too bad :/'



Pretty sure the police would help with the fact that there was a possibility of being pregnant.


----------



## Fleshy (Jul 1, 2016)

Azure said:


> The world isn't overpopulated. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere (don't quote me on this) that all of humanity can comfortably live in the state of Texas.



You're right there, there is enough space for all the people on earth, millions more people in fact. However, there isn't enough food, water and other resources to keep all these people alive (technically there is, but it doesn't work like that in practice as the majority of resources goes to western countries) so the word is overpopulated in the way that it can hardly sustain this many people, never mind any more.


----------



## cIementine (Jul 1, 2016)

Azure said:


> Yeah, but there are people who do.



this also just in: people who want and are prepared for children.. don't..get abortions


----------



## Fleshy (Jul 1, 2016)

Azure said:


> Yeah, but there are people who do.



and that's cool, they don't need to get abortions then.


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 1, 2016)

I love how we went from abortion to overpopulation lol


----------



## zoetrope (Jul 1, 2016)

pumpkins said:


> Spoiler: tw rape
> 
> 
> 
> i doubt anyone who has been raped is going to think 'wow, can't believe i just got raped. better take that morning after pill'. pretty sure they're going to be emotionally traumatised and hopefully in contact with the police, and more concerned about their wellbeing. the weight of being raped is enough to handle at a time, never mind thinking about potential pregnancy. that's like saying 'yeah, you got raped, but did you use contraception? no? lol then it's your fault, too bad :/'



Yep.  It's not the victim's responsibility to protect themselves against an unwanted pregnancy, STI, etc. that may occur from a possible assault.  It's the same reason why rookie testers kinda creep me out--why should people (ok, mostly women) feel the need to test all of their drinks for potential date rape drugs?  And, if they don't, people can always use it as victim blaming.  "She got what she deserved--she didn't use a rookie testing swizzle stick!"


----------



## seliph (Jul 1, 2016)

Azure said:


> Yeah, but there are people who do.



Ok so they can have their own children...


----------



## cIementine (Jul 1, 2016)

Liamslash said:


> Pretty sure the police would help with the fact that there was a possibility of being pregnant.



probably. but first it's probably like: 
1) are you mentally and emotionally ok ma'am
2) we'll find out who did this
3) we'll send you to hospital to see if ur ok and need further help
4) maybe you're pregnant
(priorities at the time and all that)


----------



## seliph (Jul 1, 2016)

pumpkins said:


> this also just in: people who want and are prepared for children.. don't..get abortions



Unless there's a health issue with the fetus/baby/mother in which it is still _very_ hard to go through with


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 1, 2016)

what is going on in here ...

like, the unborn thingy isn't a counscipus living thing so it's not murder if you get rid of it..


----------



## RainbowCherry (Jul 1, 2016)

Stalfos said:


> God can.



...Well tell him to do that, I want a quieter neighbourhood! 



Jared:3 said:


> What do you mean? We have more land than we did thousands of years ago



How much more exactly? If you said it's not enough, we're not going to stop having babies while we wait for the land to be the correct size. 

And I'd think overpopulation would have more to do with consumption of resources than being rather cramped honestly...?


----------



## Tensu (Jul 1, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> You're right there, there is enough space for all the people on earth, millions more people in fact. However, there isn't enough food, water and other resources to keep all these people alive (technically there is, but it doesn't work like that in practice as the majority of resources goes to western countries) so the word is overpopulated in the way that it can hardly sustain this many people, never mind any more.



That's true. Exactly why it's important to contribute to charities and things like that. The world is far from perfect, but we can try to make is as good as we can.


----------



## Nightmares (Jul 1, 2016)

Is it too far fetched to compare a human embryo to one of those duck egg things....ya...know....the eggs people eat with the embryo in...


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 1, 2016)

RainbowCherry said:


> ...Well tell him to do that, I want a quieter neighbourhood!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Maybe refer to fleshy bro as to what he said


----------



## Liamslash (Jul 1, 2016)

pumpkins said:


> probably. but first it's probably like:
> 1) are you mentally and emotionally ok ma'am
> 2) we'll find out who did this
> 3) we'll send you to hospital to see if ur ok and need further help
> ...



Actually that's incorrect, Police's first priority is the safety and well being of someone.

1: Are you ok or hurt? We'll send you to the hospital first off
At the hospital they will ask questions about the possibility of being pregnant and give shots and do tests for Hiv/other sexually transmitted diseases and give jabs and birth control pills.
2: Questioning and asking for a description.


----------



## Fleshy (Jul 1, 2016)

Nightmares said:


> Is it too far fetched to compare a human embryo to one of those duck egg things....ya...know....the eggs people eat with the embryo in...



Nope it's cool, they're the same thing. Also when people are against killing fetuses/embryos because they are murdering a "living thing" (technically not, but okay) yet they eat meat, which is y'know literally a murdered living thing.


----------



## RainbowCherry (Jul 1, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> Maybe refer to fleshy bro as to what he said


My point isn't that overpopulation is an issue or whatever - I'm just stating the point about if we had more land we'd be alright is basically unimportant because we're not going to start pulling land out of our asses and build the new continent "Abbera"


----------



## nintendofan85 (Jul 1, 2016)

I have to admit that my view on it has changed.
I was originally pro-life, and my parents are extremely pro-life to the point where they've given money to pro-life causes. But I think I'd say I'm pro-choice now. I realized that I don't really feel comfortable affecting a woman's decision on whether or not she can have an abortion.


----------



## Tao (Jul 1, 2016)

Mega_Cabbage said:


> There are oral contraceptives you know? XD



True, but what if you're not currently having sex on some sort of regular basis, to which you wouldn't necessarily be taking any sort of birth control? Should you be taking oral contraceptives just for the chance that you get raped? Of course not.


[edit] Or what if you are trying to have a baby with your partner, where you obviously wouldn't be taking contraceptives, then you get raped?

...The worst part about that being people would genuinely argue to keep that baby even though that would be a ****ing horrifying thing to happen to a couple.


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 1, 2016)

RainbowCherry said:


> My point isn't that overpopulation is an issue or whatever - I'm just stating the point about if we had more land we'd be alright is basically unimportant because we're not going to start pulling land out of our asses and build the new continent "Abbera"



Ok but if we had more land there would be no overcrowding?


----------



## Liamslash (Jul 1, 2016)

Tao said:


> True, but what if you're not currently having sex on some sort of regular basis, to which you wouldn't necessarily be taking any sort of birth control? Should you be taking oral contraceptives just for the chance that you get raped? Of course not.



Plan B pills. You take them after.


----------



## RainbowCherry (Jul 1, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> Ok but if we had more land there would be no overcrowding?


Bu... we don't! That's the point! How would you get more land?


----------



## zoetrope (Jul 1, 2016)

Liamslash said:


> Plan B pills. You take them after.



One problem with that is that most pro lifers consider that to also be abortion.  That that'd be a nono as well.


----------



## Fleshy (Jul 1, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> Ok but if we had more land there would be no overcrowding?



Nobody is denying this, but the fact is that it's irrelevant because we don't have more land, and we're not going to get more land.


----------



## Nightmares (Jul 1, 2016)

Yeah, what is this overpopulation thing


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 1, 2016)

Well actually we do have more land, but we don't use Antarctica because it's unhabitable for us

- - - Post Merge - - -



RainbowCherry said:


> Bu... we don't! That's the point! How would you get more land?



Put some crackers and some glue together and there you go more land


----------



## Nightmares (Jul 1, 2016)

....yeah..but.....Jared--


----------



## zoetrope (Jul 1, 2016)

RainbowCherry said:


> Bu... we don't! That's the point! How would you get more land?



Land reclamation or artificial islands.  But that wouldn't solve the worlds population problems.  They'd need to make A TON of them.


----------



## Liamslash (Jul 1, 2016)

zoetrope said:


> One problem with that is that most pro lifers consider that to also be abortion.  That that'd be a nono as well.



It's in the stage of an embryo/egg. 


Spoiler: Possibly very NSFW



I'm swaying pro life in the sense that it cannot be a fetus. But if you're going on like that every time someone jack's off are you gonna be like "Oh no look at all them lives being aborted"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 1, 2016)

zoetrope said:


> Land reclamation or artificial islands.  But that wouldn't solve the worlds population problems.  They'd need to make A TON of them.


This person has brains thank you


----------



## Nightmares (Jul 1, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> This person has brains thank you



More than you
Joking that was dumb 

But yeah, solving population problems is gonna be hard


----------



## Mega_Cabbage (Jul 1, 2016)

zoetrope said:


> One problem with that is that most pro lifers consider that to also be abortion.  That that'd be a nono as well.



It takes 24 hours to fertilize the egg. Should be enough time to take a pill.


----------



## Nightmares (Jul 1, 2016)

I think the amount of children a person can have should be limited lmao. Like 2 max


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 1, 2016)

you all probs should get back on topic, overpopulation isn't really about abortion tbh..


----------



## seliph (Jul 1, 2016)

When people are putting responsibility on people who have been raped as if they'd all be in a right state of mind or even willing to tell anyone about it after being severely traumatized


----------



## Tensu (Jul 1, 2016)

zoetrope said:


> One problem with that is that most pro lifers consider that to also be abortion.  That that'd be a nono as well.



I'm pro-life and I don't consider that to be abortion at all. It's not bad at all. A lot of people are against it though.


----------



## Aquari (Jul 1, 2016)

im for it, its better to have a child when your financially and mentally ready


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 1, 2016)

Neikkocat06 said:


> im for it, its better to have a child when your financially and mentally ready



agreed. it's better for everyone involved if someone has a child when they're ready and want one instead of being forced to have one when they don't want to and/or can't take proper care of it


----------



## Nightmares (Jul 1, 2016)

I can't remember who said it, but the point about killing living animals / "killing" an embryo, was really good xD

(kinda like how all the people who eat meat were saying I was a 'psychopath' for making a joke about a dead cat
Gonna admit, the joke was really inappropriate doe )


----------



## Tensu (Jul 1, 2016)

Nightmares said:


> I can't remember who said it, but the point about killing living animals / "killing" an embryo, was really good xD
> 
> (kinda like how all the people who eat meat were saying I was a 'psychopath' for making a joke about a dead cat
> Gonna admit, the joke was really inappropriate doe )



That cat joke scared the **** out of me lmao


----------



## Nightmares (Jul 1, 2016)

Azure said:


> That cat joke scared the **** out of me lmao



Lmaoo sorry, I regret that xD

People actually believed me though like what


----------



## RainbowCherry (Jul 1, 2016)

Jared:3 said:


> Yeah I'm just joking, I actually did a lab on that in science, I got an 89 on it ;~;
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



No, you have to commit to the joke then. Your island doesn't even work, it failed completely. It sunk. Your jests need to be logical.


----------



## Fleshy (Jul 1, 2016)

Nightmares said:


> I can't remember who said it, but the point about killing living animals / "killing" an embryo, was really good xD
> 
> (kinda like how all the people who eat meat were saying I was a 'psychopath' for making a joke about a dead cat
> Gonna admit, the joke was really inappropriate doe )



I'm not sure if anyone else did too, but I said it. It's just absurd to me how people can be against abortion for the simple reason that it's murdering a "living thing" yet still go on to eat meat, which is literally a murdered living thing. How can you see a embryo/fetus as a living thing worthy of life, but not an animal? I don't get it, but yeah, whatever


----------



## moonford (Jul 1, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> I'm not sure if anyone else did too, but I said it. It's just absurd to me how people can be against abortion for the simple reason that it's murdering a "living thing" yet still go on to eat meat, which is literally a murdered living thing. How can you see a embryo/fetus as a living thing worthy of life, but not an animal? I don't get it, but yeah, whatever



You slay fam.


----------



## seliph (Jul 1, 2016)

Nightmares said:


> (kinda like how all the people who eat meat were saying I was a 'psychopath' for making a joke about a dead cat
> Gonna admit, the joke was really inappropriate doe )










FleshyBro said:


> I'm not sure if anyone else did too, but I said it. It's just absurd to me how people can be against abortion for the simple reason that it's murdering a "living thing" yet still go on to eat meat, which is literally a murdered living thing. How can you see a embryo/fetus as a living thing worthy of life, but not an animal? I don't get it, but yeah, whatever


I'm not disagreeing but usually I see pro-lifers emphasise the fact that you're "killing" or "murdering or whatever a _human_ life. Basically they're obsessed with baby humans.


----------



## Fleshy (Jul 1, 2016)

zoetrope said:


> Ok, so I was just being bratty when I mentioned land reclamation as a solution to overpopulation.  I just wanted to point out that you CAN "create" new land.  The problem, then, is where will we get fresh water for these new inhabitants to drink?  Land to farm on?  Fossil fuels?
> 
> Here's an interesting question and answer about this problem (and it also touches on birth control so it's also relevant to the actual topic of this thread!)



Exactly, that was my point about "overpopulation" not that we don't have any space on earth, because we do, but that we don't have enough resources to sustain a vast amount of life on Earth if we keep using things at the current speed that we're using up resources. So land reclamation is not even necessary or relevant imo as it's not the most simple solution to the problem, and it's very unlikely to ever happen due to the money involved, and we all know what governments etc. are like for wanting to spend money, even for reasons that would help the world in the long run.

Technically we do have enough water, food, farm land, fossil fuels etc. it's just the world's distribution of these resources is messed up, severely messed up. 

I guess I brought up the topic of overpopulation by mentioning that I don't understand why people would advocate bringing unwanted children into an overpopulated world, but what I simply meant is that we hardly provide for the majority of people currently on Earth, and there's so many problems (global warming etc..) so forcing people to bring babies that they don't want into the world isn't only completely messed up in my opinion, but can have a negative impact on the literal state of out world


----------



## Trent the Paladin (Jul 1, 2016)

I'm not sure yet how you guys go from Abortion to Artificial Crackers, but I look forward to finding out.


----------



## Trent the Paladin (Jul 1, 2016)

Purged the thread. Stay on topic, respect beliefs/opinions of others, and if ya got nothing to contribute find a new thread to chat in pals. Stay cool.


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 1, 2016)

Tom said:


> Purged the thread. Stay on topic, respect beliefs/opinions of others, and if ya got nothing to contribute find a new thread to chat in pals. Stay cool.



But but you deleted my crackers posts ;~;


----------



## Gregriii (Jul 1, 2016)

yeah abortion should be a thing ^^


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 1, 2016)

Gregriii said:


> yeah abortion should be a thing ^^



good that it is a thing then :0


----------



## Chrystina (Jul 1, 2016)

Wow this thread isn't locked yet? 

Wasn't going to comment on this but since it seems like most of everyone is keeping it civil.. My thoughts - a woman should have a say in what happens with her body. Abortion should *always* be an option. 
For the ones who are saying there's always adoption: adoption is a lot harder than you would think, and I think unless someone has actually gone through an adoption process (giving up their own child to a stranger) shouldn't just say that's an easy alternative.


----------



## Chrystina (Jul 1, 2016)

Oh it was locked? lmao. o well.


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 1, 2016)

Chrystina said:


> Oh it was locked? lmao. o well.



yes but not because of rude stuff, it just got off topic!!

and ik i liked your other post but i just wanted to say that i 100% agree w your post. abortion should always be an option, it's a human right imo.


----------



## Becca617 (Jul 1, 2016)

I'm for it. A woman should have a choice because it is her body.


----------



## SoftFairie (Jul 1, 2016)

I'm for it 100%, do I really need a reason why?


----------



## focus (Jul 1, 2016)

i'm for abortion


----------



## moonford (Jul 1, 2016)

I make some crazy threads.


----------



## Discord (Jul 1, 2016)

I approve of Abortion.

I believe it's the mother's choice to abort the baby, not someone else's.


----------



## ams (Jul 1, 2016)

I think that abortion is wrong but I do believe it should be legal, so ultimately I'm pro-choice even though I would never make that choice myself.


----------



## jiny (Jul 1, 2016)

i'm for it


----------



## Bloobloop (Jul 1, 2016)

i'm for abortion


----------



## Cudon (Jul 1, 2016)

I'm all for it. A woman should have a choice when it comes to her body and what is aborted is barely human anyways.
Honestly find it so weird that people argue a lot about the age of the aborted baby, considering that it's still just a blob that's barely human and doesn't really feel much yet. It almost feels like people are projecting their feelings onto the baby.

Oh also about pills, I'm not 100% sure about this, but last time I checked you need to go to a doctor to get prescribed anti-pregnancy pills because there can be a bad allergic reaction with your blood or something. A condom can just be bought.

To add, adoption is often much harder than abortion since it requires you to give up a living being that you had to push out of your vagina and there are plenty of adopted kids out there in the first place. The planet is over-crowded as it is.

I also really hate the argument where people use themselves as an example. ''Oh I was accident if I had been aborted I'd be dead and that feels bad to me'' You wouldn't feel ****, you wouldn't exist. You wouldn't be able to feel bad for it, your current personality and being would not be missed because thered be none in the first place.


----------



## Red Cat (Jul 1, 2016)

I'm pro-choice all the way. More abortions = less screaming babies


----------



## Mints (Jul 1, 2016)

I don't really care what people do with their lives, BUT I think there is a limit to it. There are people who have sex for fun and end up getting like 8 abortions, something like that is inhumane.


----------



## vel (Jul 1, 2016)

Yikes, the last abortion thread didn't end very well. But as for my opinion, I'm for it. The baby isn't really a baby yet, it's unborn, and the woman carrying it has ultimate choice whether to get rid of it or not. Condoms and pills aren't 100% effective, there's a 1 or 2% chance it'll fail.


----------



## Wisteria Rytsar (Jul 1, 2016)

Personally I Am Pro-Choice. I Don't See How It Is Any Of My Damned Businesses What Another Woman Does To Her Body. Not Only That But She Knows Her Lifestyle  And What She Can Handle Best. Only She Can Make This Decision Because To Me Having Children Is A Serious Matter. And Being Forced To Do So Because Of Someone Else's Insensitivity And Misunderstanding Could And Would Very Possibly Kill Me. I Say This Because I Expect The Same Respect And Privacy When And If Ever I Had To Make Such A Choice. What I Feel Though Is Most Important Is That Those Who Can Not Personally Experience The Emotional Anguish Of This Decision To Just Stay Out Of It.


----------



## Mr. Cat (Jul 1, 2016)

Personally, I'm against it. Do I care what other people what other people want to do? Not at all.

Pro choice.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Mints said:


> I don't really care what people do with their lives, BUT I think there is a limit to it. There are people who have sex for fun and end up getting like 8 abortions, something like that is inhumane.



I'm pretty sure this wouldn't happen very much because of the price to have an abortion, but yeah, I understand what you mean.


----------



## tamagotchi (Jul 1, 2016)

pro-choice


----------



## piichinu (Jul 1, 2016)

Mints said:


> I don't really care what people do with their lives, BUT I think there is a limit to it. There are people who have sex for fun and end up getting like 8 abortions, something like that is inhumane.



Do you have statistics for that?


----------



## Mints (Jul 1, 2016)

shiida said:


> Do you have statistics for that?


No, unfortunately I do not have statistics for it but you can search for cases like that on google. It's not as common because abortion is expensive but it still does happen.


----------



## kayleee (Jul 1, 2016)

Abortion is the woman's choice no matter what. If she wants 10 abortions and she can afford it that's her prerogative and frankly no else's opinion matters and it's laughable that people think their opinion about someone else's body should pull so much weight like seriously mind your own business. If you don't like abortions don't get one like how simple is that


----------



## Brad (Jul 1, 2016)

I believe the choice should be available. Keeps people from doing it illegally, or in an unsafe manner.

And, I've seen first hand what happens to kids who are born to people who just aren't ready/don't want to/can't afford to be parents. It can also really mess up the lives of the parents as well.

Could they be put up for adoption? Sure. But it's foster care until that happens. And again, I've seen all of this first hand, a lot of foster homes (while probably not unfit to house children) don't really provide what you would call a normal childhood.


----------



## JellofishXD (Jul 2, 2016)

I'm kinda neautral on it. It's a touchy subject. On one hand I believe that it's the parent's choice to decide but I also feel as if the child deserves even a chance at life.


----------



## Fleshy (Jul 2, 2016)

kayleee said:


> Abortion is the woman's choice no matter what. If she wants 10 abortions and she can afford it that's her prerogative and frankly no else's opinion matters and it's laughable that people think their opinion about someone else's body should pull so much weight like seriously mind your own business. If you don't like abortions don't get one like how simple is that



This. You can have your opinons but trying to stop other people getting abortions  (like the pro-lifers who are trying to make abortion illegal) just because you don't agree with it, when it's nothing at all to do with you, is kind of far? It's their body and their life, they can do whatever they like.


----------



## KaydeeKrunk (Jul 2, 2016)

Pro-Choice. I don't think people who are just careless and don't use protection and get pregnant ever couple months and get an abortion every time should be able to, they should just get their tubes tied. But if it's something that's an accident or caused by rape or something I can see how it would be necessary and women should have access to safe abortions, because even if it was against the law women would still try to abort their babies and they'd probably either hurt themselves or not succeed and have a baby with problems.


----------



## oath2order (Jul 2, 2016)

Liamslash said:


> In that case, then I feel like however unfortunate it's not the kids fault either, and I believe the child has a soul and already is someone. I would still say adoption, but its understandable if you pick abortion. But as a boy I can't really say anything.
> 
> Edit: I'm kind of inclined to say this as I wasn't planned and my mum could of easily aborted me. So, please don't hate that much.



It's nice to see anti abortion people that are sane and somewhat reasonable

- - - Post Merge - - -

Also yeah pro choice. I don't like saying pro abortion because that implies I want abortions. I don't. I would love it if nobody ever needed an abortion ever and that we would have no rape or incest and all children were had by loving parents who were totally ready to have them.

But that's not the world we live in so, prochoice

- - - Post Merge - - -

Also yeah pro choice. I don't like saying pro abortion because that implies I want abortions. I don't. I would love it if nobody ever needed an abortion ever and that we would have no rape or incest and all children were had by loving parents who were totally ready to have them.

But that's not the world we live in so, prochoice


----------



## misakixx (Jul 2, 2016)

*.*

im pro choice because a bunch of random cells especially in an early stage dont count for me as an actual life unless its born. also think abortion should be available everywhere especially since theres overpopulation and there are people who barely have any money,, mentally and/or physically are not able to carry one,, rape victims etc. if you cant make a kid happy or never wanted them then they will automatically almost always wish they were never born  or hate their life or feel they werent loved enough so thats why they ended up being adopted. if the kid isnt wanted then its pretty much almost all of the time a bad idea.


----------



## Soraru (Jul 3, 2016)

i think the problem here is that a lot of people are referring to the fetus/embryo as a child or a baby as if it were already born. 
you don't abort babies, children, or infants. you abort embryos/fetuses.


----------



## Fleshy (Jul 3, 2016)

Soraru said:


> i think the problem here is that a lot of people are referring to the fetus/embryo as a child or a baby as if it were already born.
> you don't abort babies, children, or infants. you abort embryos/fetuses.



I think this is a very important point, embryos and fetuses that are aborted are not "babies" and are not conscious living things, they just have the potential to be


----------



## Flowergender (Jul 4, 2016)

But why do people think they should be able to tell a woman what she can and can't do with her body? If the idea of an abortion repulses you, then you personally, don't get one. Keep the child for 9 months and give it away to some strangers that may end up hurting it. Does that honestly sound any better? Because hundreds of thousands of children are physically and mentally abused in orphanages all over the world. Many of them a result of women being raped, or not having enough money to take care of them. You have no right to tell another person what they can and cannot do with their bodies no matter what your fancy religious book says or how aborting little embryos makes you feel. 

It's been scientifically proven that for the first few weeks the fetus isn't "alive" as a person is. There are enough children in systems all over the world who are treated like ****, you'd have to be stupid to think the proper answer is allowing more children to be put into those same abusive systems. Where's the logic in that? No please show me, because I fail to see it. (Because there is none.) What is it with people and trying to protect a non-living fetus over actual breathing children and the people (no matter how they come to be pregnant.) How can you choose a non-living being over living people? 

Sheesh, people never fail to amaze me.


----------



## Liamslash (Jul 4, 2016)

Soraru said:


> i think the problem here is that a lot of people are referring to the fetus/embryo as a child or a baby as if it were already born.
> you don't abort babies, children, or infants. you abort embryos/fetuses.



What changes the minute you give birth? What makes the fetus a baby.
If it's when the are born, how about the premature kids? Are they still fetus's so it's okay to kill them.


----------



## maekii (Jul 4, 2016)

I'm in for abortion, women should be able to control what happens to their body.


----------



## Aali (Jul 4, 2016)

I don't understand why *some* pro-lifers are so....i can't even think of the word.


If you can;t have babies, its not your concern 

If it's not YOUR body, its not your concern.

I plan to never hav kids, so if I do get preggers I plan to abort. But it's my body, so it's only my concern

I know *not all pro-lifers are like this*, but some are so damn violent and I've heard of some going to abortion clinics and threating people who are trying to get an abortion


*IF IT'S NOT YOUR BODY IT ISN;T YOUR CONCERN!*


----------



## RainbowCherry (Jul 4, 2016)

Liamslash said:


> What changes the minute you give birth? What makes the fetus a baby.
> If it's when the are born, how about the premature kids? Are they still fetus's so it's okay to kill them.



"In England, Wales and Scotland abortion is legal up until 24 weeks of pregnancy, although most abortions are carried out much earlier than this."

"According to the American Pregnancy Association, late-term abortions are not legal in most states in the U.S.—except in cases in which the life of the mother is in danger." Also stated 24-averaging weeks in a basically same matter as above with changed lands, so I assume it's the same in most places - but don't quote me outside of the U.K and large portions of the U.S.

So... nobody really says that.

In reference to the person you're quoting, they probably meant a very underdeveloped, new fetus. Don't quote me, I don't know their thoughts, I'm just shooting out a guess. 

And I don't think a baby will just pass through the womb and grow skin and all that funky stuff, it looks like an actual baby then rather than... a drugged-up tomato, and won't develop fully in that tiny time of passage.



(Forgot whether I ever posted about my opinions other than crackers, so I think abortion is a good thing, I think the mum and dad/sometimes even other family are more important than the fetus.)


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 4, 2016)

Liamslash said:


> What changes the minute you give birth? What makes the fetus a baby.
> If it's when the are born, how about the premature kids? Are they still fetus's so it's okay to kill them.



lol i mean you don't abort fetuses that are uh developed beyond a certain stage (i was So close to writing "ready to harvest" fml) so no ..???? .. but there is a Big Difference between a 10 week old thingy and a 25 week old thingy fetus thing. Yeah. i knlw words.


----------



## Fleshy (Jul 4, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> lol i mean you don't abort fetuses that are uh developed beyond a certain stage (i was So close to writing "ready to harvest" fml) so no ..???? .. but there is a Big Difference between a 10 week old thingy and a 25 week old thingy fetus thing. Yeah. i knlw words.



I'm completley pro-choice, but in the the UK its legal to abort a fetus at up to 24 weeks (although they rarely do that) and if born, that fetus would have around a 30% chance of surviving at 24 weeks, I guess maybe the age that it's legal to abort babies can be seen as an issue but to me it isn't as the fetus wasn't born, and isn't a concious living thing, even if it were aborted at 24 weeks, it's still the parents body.

harvest the fetuses


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 4, 2016)

^ ye tru it's not like, thinking or something yet bUt it's not, like, "oh ye Kill The Unborn but 5 minutes latr when they're out of the uterus they're an Individual w Rights" !! that was what i was trying to say kind of

and the reason why it is so rare that ppl get abortions so late/it's allowed only in certain cases is because it's right on the line between being uh Cell Thing and Kind Of Baby thingy !!!
n ye itms the parent's body obviously but im Pretty Sure *most* ppl who get abortions because they don't want a child get one pretty mch as soon as they know theyre pregnant,   sso like most of the very late abortions are because of other reasons (like the baby might not survive). which is good because it makes a much bigger impact on the body (and probably mind too) of the person getting the abortion when it's late n stuff  idk im really tired but yeah let's harvest the babies


----------



## Pearls (Jul 4, 2016)

I'm for it. I believe you should be allowed to do whatever you want


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 4, 2016)

GoldieJoan said:


> I'm for it. I believe you should be allowed to do whatever you want



when it comes to abortion and with your body or just in general?


----------



## Buttonsy (Jul 4, 2016)

I can easily see this thread getting shut down due to arguments, so I'm not gonna stick around to argue, but I basically believe that everyone has the right to their own body, and you can't tell someone their body doesn't belong to them anymore.


----------



## Isabella (Jul 4, 2016)

I'm pro choice.
It seems like a scary thing to go through but sometimes it has to be done.


----------



## sej (Jul 4, 2016)

I am against it, I do not like the idea of killing a 'living' thing, even if it doesn't have emotions, it's not right in my opinion.


----------



## Liamslash (Jul 4, 2016)

RainbowCherry said:


> "In England, Wales and Scotland abortion is legal up until 24 weeks of pregnancy, although most abortions are carried out much earlier than this."
> 
> "According to the American Pregnancy Association, late-term abortions are not legal in most states in the U.S.—except in cases in which the life of the mother is in danger." Also stated 24-averaging weeks in a basically same matter as above with changed lands, so I assume it's the same in most places - but don't quote me outside of the U.K and large portions of the U.S.
> 
> ...



That's an embryo, a fetus is used for 8 weeks old+. People keep misusing the work fetus.
Some babies are born premature at 20 weeks, its rare but it happens. Especially in twins+. Honestly people should know to use embryo not fetus because its making your argument invalid.


----------



## Hopeless Opus (Jul 4, 2016)

Personally I would never do it. I don't really like the idea of it at all. If someone is raped or the mother's life is endangered because of becoming pregnant, then I would say that they should do it. But if you purposely did do the do with someone, that's on you, and I don't think you should abort in a case where you purposely went and did. . . well, the do.


----------



## UnicornPrincessOfDoom (Jul 4, 2016)

I believe that I do not have the right to tell other people what to do, but I am pro-life for myself... Does that make me pro-choice though? Lol.


----------



## Fleshy (Jul 4, 2016)

Hopeless Opus said:


> Personally I would never do it. I don't really like the idea of it at all. If someone is raped or the mother's life is endangered because of becoming pregnant, then I would say that they should do it. But if you purposely did do the do with someone, that's on you, and I don't think you should abort in a case where you purposely went and did. . . well, the do.



What if they're young and they can't afford a child and don't know how to care for one, that's on them and they should have to go through with the pregnancy just because the chose to "do the do"? What if they're too poor to afford a baby or even homeless and they know they won't be able to provide for one, they should have to go through with it because it's on them since it was a choice they made? Just because you choose have sex does not mean you want or can provide for a child. There shouldn't be a "terms and conditions" for abortions imo, you should be able to get one regardless of your reasons


----------



## seliph (Jul 4, 2016)

People saying that if you had sex and got pregnant it's "your fault" and should have to give birth make me very uncomfortable because it's basically portraying a baby/child as punishment for sex and I ain't for that.

Especially with how poor sexual education is in certain places.


----------



## Amilee (Jul 4, 2016)

im pro-choice.
its important for everyone that we have a choice.
even if it were illegal, some would still try to do it and harm or even kill themselfs.
so its important that we have a legal and rather safe way of doing it.
tbh i dont like the idea and i wouldnt do it myself (i never was in a situation like that though) but everyone should have the right to make this choice for themself.
AND its not like its super easy to do it. theres still danger of health issues after an abortion and i wont even start on the mental health stuff :/ i dont think any woman makes this choice easily


----------



## guardgirl (Jul 4, 2016)

Pro-none of my business what another woman decides to do or not do to her own body.


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 4, 2016)

Pro-Choice? Let the baby live and make decisions for himself if he wants to live on, the only excuse from then would be that you not *wanting* to care for he/she. The mother has no right to make the choice for them or even make assumptions that they wouldn't want to live because of financial circumstances.

- - - Post Merge - - -

The only circumstance you should even consider is if you were raped or your life is endangered. Those situations need more thought and it depends on the specifics to make a wise decision.


----------



## Cudon (Jul 5, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> Pro-Choice? Let the baby live and make decisions for himself if he wants to live on, the only excuse from then would be that you not *wanting* to care for he/she. The mother has no right to make the choice for them or even make assumptions that they wouldn't want to live because of financial circumstances.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> The only circumstance you should even consider is if you were raped or your life is endangered. Those situations need more thought and it depends on the specifics to make a wise decision.


Oh yeah and let the mother suffer just so she can ask the baby at 10-18 years old ''do you want to live or die?''. I wonder what the kid would answer. 

The mother isn't assuming that the baby doesn't want to live, the mother is assuming that having a baby would **** her life up and said mother loves herself enough not to do that just to pleasure someone else. It's not about the baby, it's about the mother. Being forced to take care of a child when you really can't or don't want to can and will drive someone insane.

You may believe in your opinion all you want but if that was the norm there'd be quite a big issue for equality of women, since then women's lives would be so worthless that they'd have to give up everything to poop out a baby. (although it kind of already is)


----------



## seliph (Jul 5, 2016)

Dinomates said:


> Oh yeah and let the mother suffer just so she can ask the baby at 10-18 years old ''do you want to live or die?''. I wonder what the kid would answer.
> 
> The mother isn't assuming that the baby doesn't want to live, the mother is assuming that having a baby would **** her life up and said mother loves herself enough not to do that just to pleasure someone else. It's not about the baby, it's about the mother. Being forced to take care of a child when you really can't or don't want to can and will drive someone insane.
> 
> You may believe in your opinion all you want but if that was the norm there'd be quite a big issue for equality of women, since then women's lives would be so worthless that they'd have to give up everything to poop out a baby. (although it kind of already is)



Not to mention if she has the baby when she didn't want to and it messes her life up, it's only gonna end up messing the kid up too. And that kid's probably gonna feel guilty for their lives being broken and then they probably _will_ want to die so like... do you guys really care about this "precious life" you're saving?


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 5, 2016)

Dinomates said:


> Oh yeah and let the mother suffer just so she can ask the baby at 10-18 years old ''do you want to live or die?''. I wonder what the kid would answer.
> 
> The mother isn't assuming that the baby doesn't want to live, the mother is assuming that having a baby would **** her life up and said mother loves herself enough not to do that just to pleasure someone else. It's not about the baby, it's about the mother. Being forced to take care of a child when you really can't or don't want to can and will drive someone insane.
> 
> You may believe in your opinion all you want but if that was the norm there'd be quite a big issue for equality of women, since then women's lives would be so worthless that they'd have to give up everything to poop out a baby. (although it kind of already is)


Then what about disabled children and children with defects can they be aborted since they are a "liability" to the mother and would make the mom's life according to what you said miserable? "Being forced to take care of a child when you really can't or don't want to can and will drive someone insane." What you said falls under the same concept, if the child is not as you wanted or can't take care of to the fullest they should be aborted? No, the choice has to be given to the child if they will make life good even with their circumstances. The mom doesn't even have to ask that's ridiculous. They can surely make the decision for themselves and if they don't want to continue living and thinks the circumstances are too difficult for them it's not the mother's fault but a lack of understanding on the child.

- - - Post Merge - - -



nvll said:


> Not to mention if she has the baby when she didn't want to and it messes her life up, it's only gonna end up messing the kid up too. And that kid's probably gonna feel guilty for their lives being broken and then they probably _will_ want to die so like... do you guys really care about this "precious life" you're saving?


All that you said is an assumption. Thinking that a parent will believe the hardship screwed her life and the child contemplating suicide is twisted thinking. Everyone faces hardship in life and the mistake of having a baby should stay as a hardship that is overcomed not through a horrible practice like abortion.


----------



## Cudon (Jul 5, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> Then what about disabled children and children with defects can they be aborted since they are a "liability" to the mother and would make the mom's life according to what you said miserable? "Being forced to take care of a child when you really can't or don't want to can and will drive someone insane." What you said falls under the same concept, if the child is not as you wanted or can't take care of to the fullest they should be aborted? No, the choice has to be given to the child if they will make life good even with their circumstances. The mom doesn't even have to ask that's ridiculous. They can surely make the decision for themselves and if they don't want to continue living and thinks the circumstances are too difficult for them it's not the mother's fault but a lack of understanding on the child.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...


Actually yes, I do believe that the mother may abort their baby if said baby is found to have a lot of huge defects that would limit the childs life and the mothers life. Dealing with a child full of defects is straining for both the mother and the kid and costs a ****ton of money. Don't you pity those who put thousands of dollars into their child every month just so the child can barely live? Because I do. 

However it's the mothers choice and it's up to her what she considers a huge defect. While a rather ****ed up kind of thing to do, I do believe that a woman can abort a baby just for being a female if they so desire. In the end what they're aborting is barely alive and barely a human being and cutting their life off isn't a big deal, since it hasn't even fully started yet.

I actually personally assumed that the child would say ''I want to stay alive'', because most do. Of course it's possible that the kid would be suicidal, especially living in bad circumstances, but most people really do want to stay alive.
Also you make having children sound like a small hardship, but it's a huge responsibility for many years and takes a lot of energy. It can ruin lives especially if the person wasn't planning on taking the responsibility and instead wanted to do something else with their life.


----------



## Aali (Jul 5, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> Pro-Choice? Let the baby live and make decisions for himself if he wants to live on, the only excuse from then would be that you not *wanting* to care for he/she. The mother has no right to make the choice for them or even make assumptions that they wouldn't want to live because of financial circumstances.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> The only circumstance you should even consider is if you were raped or your life is endangered. Those situations need more thought and it depends on the specifics to make a wise decision.




I'm guessing by your username that you're a male? (Apologies if I am wrong) 

So what you're saying is that a woman shouldn't have ANY RIGHT to her own body? Why are you trying to oppress women? Why make having a kid seem like a punishment? There are so many places that have poor sex education, so the person should be punished for doing something natural? (And by natural I mean.... The way you make a baby) Some people (myself included) see themselves in a future with no kids. 

And if you are a male. You can't give birth. So why try to make women do it with no choice to opt out? Child birth is one of the most painful things ever. And it takes a huge toll on your body YEARS after you have kids. The way my mom explained to me when I was a little bit younger made me not want to have kids.


----------



## caitie (Jul 5, 2016)

Totally for it.


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 5, 2016)

Dinomates said:


> Actually yes, I do believe that the mother may abort their baby if said baby is found to have a lot of huge defects that would limit the childs life and the mothers life. Dealing with a child full of defects is straining for both the mother and the kid and costs a ****ton of money. Don't you pity those who put thousands of dollars into their child every month just so the child can barely live? Because I do.
> 
> However it's the mothers choice and it's up to her what she considers a huge defect. While a rather ****ed up kind of thing to do, I do believe that a woman can abort a baby just for being a female if they so desire. In the end what they're aborting is barely alive and barely a human being and cutting their life off isn't a big deal, since it hasn't even fully started yet.
> 
> ...


Modern Doctors cannot even tell when the baby actually starts to feel pain or is living by medical standards. Its like you are dancing around a fine line of murder for your "freedom." Do you know how many undisputable botched operations had been done where the baby was born inarguably alive? Then you have a real case of murder or as you say "hardship and unentitled responsibility."


----------



## oath2order (Jul 5, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> Modern Doctors cannot even tell when the baby actually starts to feel pain or is living by medical standards. Its like you are dancing around a fine line of murder for your "freedom." Do you know how many undisputable botched operations had been done where the baby was born inarguably alive? Then you have a real case of murder or as you say "hardship and unentitled responsibility."



You need some sources for that.


----------



## Jared:3 (Jul 5, 2016)

Wow this thread is still going On? Wow


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 5, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> Modern Doctors cannot even tell when the baby actually starts to feel pain or is living by medical standards. Its like you are dancing around a fine line of murder for your "freedom." Do you know how many undisputable botched operations had been done where the baby was born inarguably alive? Then you have a real case of murder or as you say "hardship and unentitled responsibility."



lol what do you mean alive? clumps of human cells that  haven't developed into anything yet isn't alive really and it's not murder to get it out. if you mean that people have aborted fetuses who are developed beyond the point where they're considered not abortable (lmao if that's a word) i don't really ...? ?? get why that means abortions are bad?? obviously it's not ok to abort a fetus that's due to be born in like two weeks or something lmao, i don't think people here are saying that that's ok.... 

like, countries have laws that don't let ppl have an abortion after a certain number of weeks. in my country that's 22 weeks (ye i used google), so after 22 weeks you can't have an abortion. after week 18 you have to gget permission from a certain place to get an abortion. and after week 12 you have to see a doctor to get one. that is because fetuses that are 22+ weeks old might be able to live outside the uterus..,..

so  like idk but if you  think the doctors or whoever decided that that's the case are wrong or w/e but like.....,.. yeah... if it can live outside the parent's body then it's not ok to hhave an abortion but if it can't then it's up to the parent because it's their body.


eh whatever let's just murder the fukcing  babies


----------



## ellarella (Jul 5, 2016)

if you're against abortion i will genuinely think less of you


----------



## nerdatheart9490 (Jul 5, 2016)

It is 100% up to the pregnant woman. For me personally, I would only get an abortion if there were a serious medical issue that would endanger my life or the baby's chance for survival. But that's me, and I don't speak for all women in all situations. Everyone is different, everyone experiences different things. And this is why it should be left up to the individual, and not governed by the religious right and/or the opinions of the people who are not the person going through the experience.


----------



## Coco_Weng (Jul 5, 2016)

I've just read several posts from the first and second pages and I find it interesting that people think giving birth to a baby and surrendering him or her after is easier than abortion?

Let's not talk about the pain and the stress and the potential of losing your job, why should a woman go though all this for a baby she is well aware that she won't be able to care for? And who can guarantee that the baby will be adopted into a good home? Or even actually get adopted?? 

I think this abortion topic is way more than just the "baby" but more to being responsible. People argue that being responsible is using a protection, but I also believe, getting an abortion is your last resort to be responsible to yourself and the "baby". 
Lastly, I think MAN is also equally responsible for this matter.

You don't get pragnant with "yourself".


----------



## Hermione Granger (Jul 5, 2016)

I am all up for abortion. Yeah, it's not a pretty action to take on, but it's like many people have said before- It's the woman's body and decision. I don't think it's "murder," especially since this is an idiotic way to think about abortion. It sounds more like a pro-life's lullaby to make someone feel bad rather than an actual good point. Being pregnant is not some easy ol' 9 month trip. A LOT of health risks are involved, like anemia, Preeclampsia, and even death. There are also long term to permanent body dysfunctions to consider.  Another stupid point I see from pro-life is the whole "ya should've used protection" like?????? Protection has no 100% guarantee of preventing pregnancy and neither does the morning after pill. (i.e. Plan-B). I'm pretty sure no woman goes and has sex with the intention of getting pregnant and then aborting. So many people say "adoption" but that's not gonna stop someone from getting hurt regardless. Kids go up to YEARS in adoption and foster homes that some end up damaged mentally. Pro-lifers are also not gonna pay the woman's hospital bills and are not gonna do anything to help raise the babies they preach about protecting so much. They don't seem to give much thought to post-pregnancy situations as much as they do pre-pregnancy. Overall, I think abortion helps women (*gasp* shocker, I know). It's a sucky way to go about a pregnancy but in the end it does its job and protects the woman, whose life should be put before an embryo or fetus. It helps to have this option available, because even if it became illegal to abort, women are just going to turn to self-induced abortions and that's just more damage to add to the body.


----------



## discopolice (Jul 5, 2016)

A quick question for people who oppose abortion: There are over 93,000 people currently on the national waiting list for a kidney transplant. At least 80% of these people are on dialysis, and some will undoubtedly die before a deceased donor match pops up. The longer someone's on that waiting list, the worse their outcomes get when/if they do receive that transplant, statistically.

So what do we do? Do we put everyone on a living organ donation list, then require them to give a kidney if there's a match awaiting one, going through a physically painful and taxing process that will affect them for life? If a life could be saved, is the consent of the person undergoing the physically taxing and possibly deadly process relevant?

(My answer to this one should be obvious!)


----------



## seliph (Jul 5, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> All that you said is an assumption. Thinking that a parent will believe the hardship screwed her life and the child contemplating suicide is twisted thinking. Everyone faces hardship in life and the mistake of having a baby should stay as a hardship that is overcomed not through a horrible practice like abortion.



It's not twisted thinking it's pretty realistic in this day and age where the cost of living is high and as are the amount of people with mental issues!
Also how could you say "the mistake of a baby" while claiming to be pro-life oml. Having a kid isn't a "hardship that you can overcome" like a breakup, it's a lifelong commitment and responsibility that not everyone can handle.


----------



## #1 Senpai (Jul 5, 2016)

i read a few posts from the first few pages and some made me want to question their opinions..

anyways, I feel like those who have an opinion opposing abortion are somewhat males; males who don't really have that much to say in regards of pregnancy because it doesn't even happen to them lol. I'm pro-choice  and I feel that it is the mother's choice because she's the one who has to carry around another HUMAN being inside her womb, and that it has got nothing to do with me or the opinions of others. 



Jared:3 said:


> However if you want to get rid of the baby give it up for adoption is it really that hard? At least the baby gets a home instead of dying


Not every baby gets a home doe...


----------



## Aali (Jul 5, 2016)

Not everyone can handle a kid. That;s 18 years (more if they go to college and stay home while they do) and some people can't handle that.


I have trouble taking care of my dogs sometimes, i doubt I'd ever be able to hand a tiny human


----------



## Nightmares (Jul 5, 2016)

Aali said:


> Not everyone can handle a kid. That;s 18 years (more if they go to college and stay home while they do) and some people can't handle that.
> 
> 
> I have trouble taking care of my dogs sometimes, i doubt I'd ever be able to hand a tiny human



Yeah, I think it's better to have an abortion if you can't take care of the child 

"put it up for adoption!!" Why would someone spend 9 months carrying the baby around, dealing with all the **** like morning sickness, and eventually birth....just to shove it in a children's home....liek


----------



## Aali (Jul 5, 2016)

Nightmares said:


> Yeah, I think it's better to have an abortion if you can't take care of the child
> 
> "put it up for adoption!!" Why would someone spend 9 months carrying the baby around, dealing with all the **** like morning sickness, and eventually birth....just to shove it in a children's home....liek



And what if they spend their life in mulitple  foster families, being shifted around until they turn 18 and the government says "f*** you" and shoves you out into the world.


----------



## seliph (Jul 5, 2016)

Aali said:


> And what if they spend their life in mulitple  foster families, being shifted around until they turn 18 and the government says "f*** you" and shoves you out into the world.



This is the big reason why I say pro-lifers aren't pro-life, they're pro-baby


----------



## Cudon (Jul 5, 2016)

#1 Senpai said:


> i read a few posts from the first few pages and some made me want to question their opinions..
> 
> anyways, I feel like those who have an opinion opposing abortion are somewhat males; males who don't really have that much to say in regards of pregnancy because it doesn't even happen to them lol. I'm pro-choice  and I feel that it is the mother's choice because she's the one who has to carry around another HUMAN being inside her womb, and that it has got nothing to do with me or the opinions of others.
> 
> ...


Even if most of the pro-life people have the reason of being male and not ever getting to experience pregnancy it's still inexcusable. Just because you can't experience something doesn't mean that you can't put yourself in someones shoes to at least get a general feel for it. Everyone should be capable of such empathy.


----------



## Aali (Jul 5, 2016)

Dinomates said:


> Even if most of the pro-life people have the reason of being male and not ever getting to experience pregnancy it's still inexcusable. Just because you can't experience something doesn't mean that you can't put yourself in someones shoes to at least get a general feel for it. Everyone should be capable of such empathy.



Putting yourself is not the same as actually giving childbirth


----------



## Tao (Jul 5, 2016)

#1 Senpai said:


> anyways, I feel like those who have an opinion opposing abortion are somewhat males; males who don't really have that much to say in regards of pregnancy because it doesn't even happen to them lol.



Does it really matter if it "doesn't even happen to them"? 

The two biggest reasons for people wanting/getting an abortion are "I'm just not ready" and "I financially can't do it". The man sure as hell has to live with both of those things, even if he doesn't have to carry it around for 9 months.


Even in the case of 'give it up for adoption', that's also ignoring that men are surprisingly also capable of empathy. I'm guessing that a lot of people here, male or female, aren't even close to an age where getting pregnant is a concern, so empathy is all over this thread.


----------



## seliph (Jul 5, 2016)

Tao said:


> Does it really matter if it "doesn't even happen to them"?
> 
> The two biggest reasons for people wanting/getting an abortion are "I'm just not ready" and "I financially can't do it". The man sure as hell has to live with both of those things, even if he doesn't have to carry it around for 9 months.
> 
> ...



Not that I disagree with you but in a lot of cases, the man _isn't_ there which is also a big reason for getting an abortion: that the mother doesn't have any support while pregnant nor help to help take care of the child


----------



## Aleigh (Jul 5, 2016)

Pro-choice. If the baby itself is not in your own body, it doesn't really effect you one way or another, unless of course you're the father / family / close friend, but even then. If someone gets pregnant, under whatever circumstance, should at least have the choice whether or not to keep it. If a woman is not ready, either physically or emotionally, then she must do whatever benefits her well-being. As long as a baby isn't like over half term, you can't really call it "murder." 

mur?der
ˈmərdər/
noun
noun: murder; plural noun: murders
1.
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

hu?man be?ing
noun
a man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens, distinguished from other animals by superior mental development, power of articulate speech, and upright stance.

A fetus is not a "human" quite yet, not quite developed enough to have feelings, so it can't really be _hurting_ it. So by technical terms it is not murder, especially since the mother is not even doing it to purposefully harm the fetus.


----------



## #1 Senpai (Jul 5, 2016)

Dinomates said:


> Even if most of the pro-life people have the reason of being male and not ever getting to experience pregnancy it's still inexcusable. Just because you can't experience something doesn't mean that you can't put yourself in someones shoes to at least get a general feel for it. Everyone should be capable of such empathy.


Everyone can be capable to feel such empathy, I didn't say males can't; but it is different from experiencing it rather than feeling what it is like. Inexcusable? To abort? 



Tao said:


> Does it really matter if it "doesn't even happen to them"?
> 
> The two biggest reasons for people wanting/getting an abortion are "I'm just not ready" and "I financially can't do it". The man sure as hell has to live with both of those things, even if he doesn't have to carry it around for 9 months.
> 
> ...


It does matter. Of course men are able to feel empathy towards the life of a baby, I didn't say every man cannot. The man "sure as hell" having to live with those things doesn't always count because there are many cases where the man is not even around and is unable to give a substantial amount of support for the female who is pregnant and therefore the female has the choice to abort regardless of the man. 

There are numerous cases where the woman already has a child and is a single parent and cannot afford another child or the one that is deciding to get an abortion would end up as a single parent if they decide to keep the fetus.


----------



## Blu Rose (Jul 5, 2016)

totally for it; we need to decrease the surplus population <3
that isn't the actual reason why but ye


----------



## iovis (Jul 5, 2016)

I'm on the fence on this one. 
I'm pro-life, but the thing that makes me waver is that couples/women will to anything to get rid of the kid. If abortion is illegal, they may begin to do it theirselves and use hangers in order to get rid of the child. I've also heard of a couple who had the woman lay on the ground while the man ran over her with a car. It worked - the woman was fine, and the child died.

Edit: It shouldn't have worked and the doctor was shocked to see the woman still alive. I have no idea how she lived.


----------



## Aleigh (Jul 5, 2016)

Iovis said:


> I've also heard of a couple who had the woman lay on the ground while the man ran over her with a car. It worked - the woman was fine, and the child died.



What?! That's a thing? That sounds terribly painful and how in the world does it work with the woman surviving?


----------



## Soraru (Jul 5, 2016)

Aleigh said:


> Pro-choice. If the baby itself is not in your own body, it doesn't really effect you one way or another, unless of course you're the father / family / close friend, but even then. If someone gets pregnant, under whatever circumstance, should at least have the choice whether or not to keep it. If a woman is not ready, either physically or emotionally, then she must do whatever benefits her well-being. As long as a baby isn't like over half term, you can't really call it "murder."
> 
> mur?der
> ˈmərdər/
> ...



yeah... people shouldn't be calling abortions "murder" or "killing" 
its an attempt to demonize abortions with manipulative words like that.


----------



## Aali (Jul 5, 2016)

If you say abortion is murder we all know you're just say murder so it sounds scary and horrible.

Fetus≠human


----------



## Elijo (Jul 5, 2016)

I'm on the fence, but if I had to choose I would say yes. Of course there's pros and cons for either option but in the end it should be up to the potential parents (or mother) and the choice should be guided by the doctor that is appropriately assigned. I am up for whatever choice is more beneficial for the mother (in health and in financial).


----------



## Heisenberg (Jul 6, 2016)

I'm pro-choice but other than currently using contraceptives I don't think I could go through with it.


----------



## Nightmares (Jul 6, 2016)

Aali said:


> If you say abortion is murder we all know you're just say murder so it sounds scary and horrible.
> 
> Fetus≠human



I bet most of the people who said that are fine with killing living animals and eating them, by not fine with just 'removing' a fetus from the womb....LiEk


----------



## Hopeless Opus (Jul 6, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> What if they're young and they can't afford a child and don't know how to care for one, that's on them and they should have to go through with the pregnancy just because the chose to "do the do"? What if they're too poor to afford a baby or even homeless and they know they won't be able to provide for one, they should have to go through with it because it's on them since it was a choice they made? Just because you choose have sex does not mean you want or can provide for a child. There shouldn't be a "terms and conditions" for abortions imo, you should be able to get one regardless of your reasons



Basically what I mean is, if you go out and have sex (on purpose) and get pregnant and you want to have an abortion then I guess it's on you, but I just think it's wrong. I'm straying a bit from the topic and I'm not saying everyone is like this because they aren't, but I know this girl who CONSTANTLY has sex with her boyfriend, and says if she ever got pregnant that she'd never hesitate to abort, and I think that's just really wrong. I know couples sometimes don't want kids but if someone like her would go and get pregnant and then immediately abort I honestly just think that's messed up.

And unless I'm wrong, abortions are pretty costly. (but so is giving birth so y'know) Not everyone can afford one so if someone is homeless then that'd be awful for them. I don't think people should be forced to live a life they don't want to, but if it was me, like I said, I wouldn't do it.


----------



## seliph (Jul 6, 2016)

Hopeless Opus said:


> but I know this girl who CONSTANTLY has sex with her boyfriend, and says if she ever got pregnant that she'd never hesitate to abort, and I think that's just really wrong.



How dare someone enjoy sex but not want a child... woe is me...


----------



## Hopeless Opus (Jul 6, 2016)

nvll said:


> How dare someone enjoy sex but not want a child... woe is me...



Woe is you!


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

Nightmares said:


> I bet most of the people who said that are fine with killing living animals and eating them, by not fine with just 'removing' a fetus from the womb....LiEk


Animals are no way equivalent to us, humans are so much more precious and you aren't just removing a fetus from a womb. Even if you do argue that a fetus "removed" during abortion is not a human which I disagree with.(only at the stage when it's usually done in abortion) it's as close as you're going to get to a human and even possibly at the stage where it is no different to a human. You shouldn't even risk it. It's a irreplaceable and unique set of genetics and life in it's early stages. How can you compare to killing an animal and even if you do don't you eat meat right?There's nothing wrong in eating meat. Are you saying it's suddenly not the same thing since the person raising the animals for you to eat is this horrible being smh. Abortion should be a last resort not something to be tossed around and spoken in the same context of eating your "freshly" made hamburger, ugh.

- - - Post Merge - - -

Have you seen abortion pictures? You can see that especially in later stages that it's a living being not something you can just eradicate from your body. If even one baby is killed by mistake or not, through abortion when it could have lived I believe it's unacceptable. But heck it's not one baby we're talking about that have died undisputably by the process. I've actually talked with an assistant doctor who's witnessed abortion countless times. This isn't evidence or anything at all but how she talked of her job was just gut wrenching. The way she described it and the details of the actual act was disgusting, she felt that it was wrong too not that it even matters.


----------



## amanda1983 (Jul 6, 2016)

I am pro-choice. I decide what does or does not happen in my uterus, in consultation with my medical team, and my partner - who didn't need me to tell him that it's my body, my choice, as he's a grown man who fully understands the concept of "bodily autonomy". Bodily autonomy means that we cannot take organs from a corpse unless they consented whilst alive (except in special circumstances or when it is a legal minor and the parents can consent), or force *anyone* to give blood etc, even when doing so would save another person's life. This concept is fundamental to society itself, in Australia where I live, as it is in much of the rest of the world. My body, my choice.

If someone is against abortion, that person should personally refrain from having abortions (and hopefully they never find themseves in a situation where abortion does genuinely need to be considered). Not attempt to restrict access to safe and affordable abortions to those who choose otherwise.

In my personal circumstances, I am unable to physically go through with a pregnancy, as I have several medical conditions which would almost certainly kill me (no joke) should I accidentally conceive and foolishly try to continue the pregnancy. Whether I want children of my own or not is irrelevant to the reality that my body simply cannot carry a viable foetus to term (or close enough that it can survive outside of my womb). I take precautions against pregnancy, but there is no 100% success rate available. Including abstinence, as rape can and does happen to women who would otherwise have no chance of falling pregnant. Should I somehow fall pregnant (very incredibly unlikely in my case given the severity of my endometriosis which affects fertility, amongst other reasons), the only responsible action I could take would be to have an abortion. It would not be easy for me, by any stretch. I am an educator who adores children. But my body could not survive pregnancy long enough for a foetus to remain viable. It just can't. No foetus could survive in my body long enough to be able to survive outside of me and be a human being. 

I myself was an accidental conception, my parents used protection but it failed. I was unplanned, but I was wanted. If they had made a different decision, I wouldn't be here now and the world would have kept turning just fine without me. My mother's body, her choice (made with my father, but bodily autonomy means the ultimate decision must always be made by the woman whose body is at risk). There will be no babies born from my womb, and that's okay. My body, my choice. 

Edit : grammar.


----------



## Fleshy (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> Animals are no way equivalent to us, humans are so much more precious and you aren't just removing a fetus from a womb. Even if you do argue that a fetus "removed" during abortion is not a human which I disagree with.(only at the stage when it's usually done in abortion) it's as close as you're going to get to a human and even possibly at the stage where it is no different to a human. You shouldn't even risk it. It's a irreplaceable and unique set of genetics and life in it's early stages. How can you compare to killing an animal and even if you do don't you eat meat right?There's nothing wrong in eating meat. Are you saying it's suddenly not the same thing since the person raising the animals for you to eat is this horrible being smh. Abortion should be a last resort not something to be tossed around and spoken in the same context of eating your "freshly" made hamburger, ugh.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> Have you seen abortion pictures? You can see that especially in later stages that it's a living being not something you can just eradicate from your body. If even one baby is killed by mistake or not, through abortion when it could have lived I believe it's unacceptable. But heck it's not one baby we're talking about that have died undisputably by the process. I've actually talked with an assistant doctor who's witnessed abortion countless times. This isn't evidence or anything at all but how she talked of her job was just gut wrenching. The way she described it and the details of the actual act was disgusting, she felt that it was wrong too not that it even matters.



Humans are animals, so yes, we are equivalent to animals, because _we are animals_. Can you explain what makes humans more precious than other animals, is it out ability to mass murder, destroy the world? because honestly humans are ruining the world, so what makes them so precious? You also realise animals have "a irreplaceable and unique set of genetics" too? that's not just reserved for the wonderful precious humans by the way. 

Oh yeah, how can you compare taking a pill to remove some unwanted cells from your body (early stages) to hanging an animal upside down, slitting their throat, and leaving them like that until they're drained of blood, only then to go and chop up their body to eat! What a weird comparison right, obviously the first is the worst! 

The fetus is not a human, only has the potential to be, I don't know how you can disagree with that. You actually can eradicate a fetus from your body, that's what abortion is. Yes later stage abortion is more of a complicated topic as the the procedure is more dangerous and doctors know that, that is why late stage abortions are not given out very often, and are often used when the mothers life is at risk. Most people that are pregnant and don't want to be will have had an abortion way before it gets to the "later stages" so imo that is a pretty irrelevant argument against abortion as it most definitely isn't the most common abortion method. 

You know what else is gut wrenching and disgusting? when women had to go to people who carried out abortions in their homes, without anesthetic, often with serious complications, thousands of women died every year because of this, as they couldn't see a doctor for the complications because they would be put in prison since abortion was illegal. If they couldn't go to someone else (as that often cost thousands, back in the 60s and before) they would do it themselves, using coat-hangers/ any object they think would work. You know why? Because back then, the men in charge decided that they can police what women* do with their bodies, this resulted in thousands of deaths. So legal abortion is 100% a good thing, it stops things like this happening.


----------



## Aali (Jul 6, 2016)

Hopeless Opus said:


> Basically what I mean is, if you go out and have sex (on purpose) and get pregnant and you want to have an abortion then I guess it's on you, but I just think it's wrong. I'm straying a bit from the topic and I'm not saying everyone is like this because they aren't, but I know this girl who CONSTANTLY has sex with her boyfriend, and says if she ever got pregnant that she'd never hesitate to abort, and I think that's just really wrong. I know couples sometimes don't want kids but if someone like her would go and get pregnant and then immediately abort I honestly just think that's messed up.
> 
> And unless I'm wrong, abortions are pretty costly. (but so is giving birth so y'know) Not everyone can afford one so if someone is homeless then that'd be awful for them. I don't think people should be forced to live a life they don't want to, but if it was me, like I said, I wouldn't do it.




How dare they enjoy something. 


I like to eat but I don't wanna get fat. Do I just not eat?

Don't shame people for doing something that's natural


----------



## Colour Bandit (Jul 6, 2016)

I am very pro choice and I would have an abortion if I got pregnant before I was at least 25.
I very recently had a pregnancy scare (wasn't helped by the huge stress I have been feeling because of work) which luckily happened to be a combination of the bad timing of a stomach bug, no bleeding on a break from my birth control and a coworker finding out she was having an 'oops' pregnancy while on the pill. It was hell for me, I live in a house with 5 other people (1 is my bf and the others are all male), I was facing financial problems because of work (cut pay, cut hours, ended up quitting after the scare and getting a new job) and I had been warned by doctors multiple times that my body wasn't suitable for pregnancy due to my being severely underweight and because of all my medications.

So I ended up having the talk with my boyfriend, I said if I am pregnant it is getting aborted because of above list of reasons, he wasn't too happy about that. He'd rather it was put up for adoption when it was born but if I had an abortion he'd rather he wasn't told or that I lie and say I miscarried. That hurt a lot for me, that he'd either risk my health or the baby's health or want me to lie about something that is so horrible (I know women who have had miscarriages and I wouldnever dream of lying and say I had one) just so he has a clear conscience. I still decided to have an abortion and never tell him, "oh no I was never pregnant dear, just a bit under the weather is all!" And I would do that in the future.

Luckily it turned out I wasn't pregnant, multiple negative tests, a negative test from my doctor and my period coming back on the next pill break was a godsend for me. I ended up having a sit down with my boyfriend and doctor and my doctor told him why I shouldn't get pregnant for the foreseeable. It helped a lot, he still isn't keen on abortions but he knows that if I get pregnant I need one. 

Hopefully in the future my weight will be better, my medications won't be dangerous for a foetus and I'll be more financially stable as I DO want a baby one day, but not now, I don't want my baby to have a bad quality of life because it was damaged in the womb due to my meds, I don't want my boyfriend to be a single father because I ignored all the warnings the doctor gave me, I don't want to have to choose between feeding my baby or myself or my boyfriend when we run out of money because we weren't financially ready for a baby, I don't want my baby to have a bad life being passed from family to family and come to resent me and my choice because I put them up for adoption.

I do use all the protection I can (except for the last time when I had the scare, when we tried it without a condom) and I wish that men could take a pill like women do rather than just chucking on a condom and hoping for the best... So if I did get pregnant it would be extremely unwanted right now.


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> Humans are animals, so yes, we are equivalent to animals, because _we are animals_. Can you explain what makes humans more precious than other animals, is it out ability to mass murder, destroy the world? because honestly humans are ruining the world, so what makes them so precious? You also realise animals have "a irreplaceable and unique set of genetics" too? that's not just reserved for the wonderful precious humans by the way.
> 
> Oh yeah, how can you compare taking a pill to remove some unwanted cells from your body (early stages) to hanging an animal upside down, slitting their throat, and leaving them like that until they're drained of blood, only then to go and chop up their body to eat! What a weird comparison right, obviously the first is the worst!
> 
> ...


Human beings literally defined what the word animal means. Even if you say that animals are humans, humans are the only ones that would categorize themselves to be.And counterpart humans are the only ones that can oppose to the idea of being an animal. We have far superior intelligence reasoning ration and emotions than animals. If you would categorize us in animals we would be Super-Animals. The fact that we can destroy the world like you said should entitle us to being seperate from animals, we're simply superior. I also didn't say that only humans have genes that's stupid. Taking a pill seriously? Not even gonna comment you're only saying that since you would rather state that one than the other. Humans have the right of killing and any other "animal" you speak of when it sustains us, or provides us with something we can use that's where the argument ends unlike abortion. Your 3rd argument I believe life starts at contraception and I'm not going to argue with you about that since we have completely different beliefs and it's not just religion. Legalizing abortion is not a bad thing, it is how there is no restriction there is it on it.


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 6, 2016)

?? restricting abortion rights is sexist af fite me


----------



## amanda1983 (Jul 6, 2016)

in answer to a question raised several times in this thread : BABY = able to survive outside of the uterus, with or without medical intervention. FOETUS = not able to survive outside of the uterus, with or without medical intervention. The science is more complicated, as is the legal interpretation, of course. But that is the standard interpretation used generally for lay-people. While most pregnant women I've known refer to their growing foetus colloquially as their baby, even before it has reached the foetal stage of development, this is done for ease of speaking rather than confusion of biology. So we speak of the growing foetus as a baby as a social and/or professional courtesy. But we all know that until the foetus has developed enough to survive outside of the woman's body, it is not actually a baby. It has the potential to be a baby, we all hope it will become a happy healthy baby (as these cases are all involving happily pregnant women). But pregnancy is full of risks, even with the very best of medical care and where money is not a factor.

In my particular case, it is unlikely I would a) ever fall pregnant b) successfully continue through to foetal stage of development and virtually impossible for c) the foetus to develop to a point of being self-sustaining independent of my uterus, with or without medical intervention. Since my body would be in dire straights *well* before I hit the second trimester...that foetus would simply NOT ever reach d) the stage of development required to survive, to be a baby.


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> ?? restricting abortion rights is sexist af fite me


I know you're trolling but there are already restrictions on abortion, it's just that it's really loose, I'm saying a tighter one.


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> I know you're trolling but there are already restrictions on abortion, it's just that it's really loose, I'm saying a tighter one.



im not trolling lol
and a tighter restriction on abortion rights is sexist. laws that make it harder to have abortion clinics, laws that require more work for the person wanting an abortion (woman or trans person, people already oppressed by the system)  and all laws that makes abortions harder to get are sexist. the restrictions that exist with the 22 (or around that in other places) is simply because the fetus might be able to survive outside of a person's body then.
before that no one has to legallt do anything to keep it alive :^p

unwanted pregnancies **** ppl's lives up and the way many societies treat pregnant ppl doesnt make it easier lmao. (love how ppl can get fired for being pregnant in certain places :^] )


----------



## Fleshy (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> Human beings literally defined what the word animal means. Even if you say that animals are humans, humans are the only ones that would categorize themselves to be.And counterpart humans are the only ones that can oppose to the idea of being an animal. We have far superior intelligence reasoning ration and emotions than animals. If you would categorize us in animals we would be Super-Animals. The fact that we can destroy the world like you said should entitle us to being seperate from animals, we're simply superior. I also didn't say that only humans have genes that's stupid. Taking a pill seriously? Not even gonna comment you're only saying that since you would rather state that one than the other. Humans have the right of killing and any other "animal" you speak of when it sustains us, or provides us with something we can use that's where the argument ends unlike abortion. Your 3rd argument I believe life starts at contraception and I'm not going to argue with you about that since we have completely different beliefs and it's not just religion. Legalizing abortion is not a bad thing, it is how there is no restriction there is it on it.



The first part honestly makes no sense to me? Humans are animals? Abilities, feeling, emotions etc. don't make a living thing more or less an animal? The definition of animal is "a living organism which feeds on organic matter, typically having specialized sense organs and nervous system and able to respond rapidly to stimuli." humans fall in that category, right? I don't see why it matters that humans create words and definitions, you can't just oppose a definition because you're human? I'm not going to go on more about this because it's irrelevant to the discussion anyway.

Yes, taking a pill. Abortion is usually taking pills or getting an injection. So let me get this straight, humans have the right to kill animals when ever they want, even for food when there's other options, but they shouldn't have the right to remove a fetus from their own body? 

How should abortions be restricted? There shouldn't be a terms and conditions for abortions, anyone should be able to get one or multiple abortions for whatever reason. +1 to what visibleghost said about abortion restrictions


----------



## Aali (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> I know you're trolling but there are already restrictions on abortion, it's just that it's really loose, I'm saying a tighter one.



I'm guessing you're a male? (Based on your username. Apologies if I'm wrong)

If so you have no right to try to restrict the rights of a woman's body

We're the ones that give birth. Not men


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> The first part honestly makes no sense to me? Humans are animals? Abilities, feeling, emotions etc. don't make a living thing more or less an animal? The definition of animal is "a living organism which feeds on organic matter, typically having specialized sense organs and nervous system and able to respond rapidly to stimuli." humans fall in that category, right? I don't see why it matters that humans create words and definitions, you can't just oppose a definition because you're human? I'm not going to go on more about this because it's irrelevant to the discussion anyway.
> 
> Yes, taking a pill. Abortion is usually taking pills or getting an injection. So let me get this straight, humans have the right to kill animals when ever they want, even for food when there's other options, but they shouldn't have the right to remove a fetus from their own body?
> 
> How should abortions be restricted? There shouldn't be a terms and conditions for abortions, anyone should be able to get one or multiple abortions for whatever reason. +1 to what visibleghost said about abortion restrictions


The word animal has multiple definitions one of them is a living organism other than a human being another is what you stated. The definition I was referring to is the 1st one and what I said in the 1st part means that we define what an animal even is. Heck the definition of words even change if we want it to change and a consensus is reached. Our intelligence ration and emotions don't even compare to what my definition of animal was.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Aali said:


> I'm guessing you're a male? (Based on your username. Apologies if I'm wrong)
> 
> If so you have no right to try to restrict the rights of a woman's body
> 
> We're the ones that give birth. Not men


It all falls at where we believe life begins that's why debates like these never end, since in the end it's your belief and opinion you can't win it with solely facts as even the facts are up to interpretation.


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 6, 2016)

well ok so here's the thing

no one is ever legally required to give blood or donate organs, mone marrow or w/e to their dying relative or whowver needs it. even if it would save their life. even if it would be very little effort and no pain for the donating person. it is their choice if they want to donate. the same way that it is a pregnant person's choice if they want to keep supporting a fetus in their uterus.
even if that thing is alive, it still needs the pregnant person's body's support in order to live.  and if the pregnant person does not want to offer that support they should not be legally required to.

so no it's not only about when you think life starts. it's about what rights you think women and trans people deserve.


----------



## 00jachna (Jul 6, 2016)

It's their body, so I feel like they should be able to do as they wish


----------



## Aali (Jul 6, 2016)

I don't think there should be strict abortion laws. 

It would oppress women even more than we are now. Not to mention most of the people who would decide if the laws should pass are OLD MEN. They should have NO SAY IN IT WHAT SOEVER!

If it's not your body then don't worry about it. 

*QUIT TRYING TO F*** OTHER PEOPLES LIFE WITH YOUR D*** BELIEFS THAT YOU'RE TRYING TO CRAM DOWN THEIR THROATS *


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

Aali said:


> I don't think there should be strict abortion laws.
> 
> It would oppress women even more than we are now. Not to mention most of the people who would decide if the laws should pass are OLD MEN. They should have NO SAY IN IT WHAT SOEVER!
> 
> ...


Every debate their's a statement like this and it just amazes me. Nobody I repeat nobody is cramming beliefs down you or anybody's throats, we're giving reasonable arguments and evaluating other people's stances on the issue at hand and drawing lines. You sound more like you want everyone to follow your beliefs not distraught because so many people are trying to shove their beliefs down other's throats.


----------



## Wisteria Rytsar (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> Every debate their's a statement like this and it just amazes me. Nobody I repeat nobody is cramming beliefs down you or anybody's throats, we're giving reasonable arguments and evaluating other people's stances on the issue at hand and drawing lines. You sound more like you want everyone to follow your beliefs not distraught because so many people are trying to shove their beliefs down other's throats.



By Saying That We Need More Restrictions On Abortion, While You Cant Even Conceive Is You Cramming Your Beliefs Down People Throats. Im Pretty Sure That If The Legislation Were Put To A Vote You Would Vote For The Restrictions To Be Passed Based On Your Beliefs Rather Than The Common Good Of The Women.


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

Kaede Nova said:


> By Saying That We Need More Restrictions On Abortion, While You Cant Even Conceive Is You Cramming Your Beliefs Down People Throats. Im Pretty Sure That If The Legislation Were Put To A Vote You Would Vote For The Restrictions To Be Passed Based On Your Beliefs Rather Than The Common Good Of The Women.


I stated my opinion, all I need. Didn't force you to follow or even ask to follow or will you even follow. Very different things cramming beliefs down someone's throats and stating beliefs. No matter how conflicting my beliefs are, forcing an idea down someone's throat requires an additional step to just believing yourself and stating your stance and even challenging other's beliefs.


----------



## Aali (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> Every debate their's a statement like this and it just amazes me. Nobody I repeat nobody is cramming beliefs down you or anybody's throats, we're giving reasonable arguments and evaluating other people's stances on the issue at hand and drawing lines. You sound more like you want everyone to follow your beliefs not distraught because so many people are trying to shove their beliefs down other's throats.



I'm saying everyone should be free todo what they want with THEIR body

If you want an abortion, get one. 

If you don't want to, don't. 

Don't make laws that don't give you a choice.

And that previous post wasn't targeted at you.


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

And yes I would vote, anything wrong with that? Am I not entitled to my beliefs especially in America of all countries? Also your last statement is an oxymoron to me since I believe it is not for the common good of women but oh wait I'm entitled to my beliefs right?

- - - Post Merge - - -



Aali said:


> I'm saying everyone should be free todo what they want with THEIR body
> 
> If you want an abortion, get one.
> 
> ...


I never said there shouldn't be the option, I don't agree with the practice (People shouldn't do it at all) and the looseness of restrictions. People set on getting an abortion should at least be required to get it earlier. (This is my standpoint as to the law) Also I didn't take it as targeted to me, even if it was I don't care this is a debate. I'd be glad to argue.


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> And yes I would vote, anything wrong with that? Am I not entitled to my beliefs especially in America of all countries? Also your last statement is an oxymoron to me since I believe it is not for the common good of women but oh wait I'm entitled to my beliefs right?
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



cool then don't get an abortion but don't try to make it harder for people who need or want an abortion to get one lol


----------



## Wisteria Rytsar (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> And yes I would vote, anything wrong with that? Am I not entitled to my beliefs especially in America of all countries? Also your last statement is an oxymoron to me since I believe it is not for the common good of women but oh wait I'm entitled to my beliefs right?
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



You Are Entitled To Your Beliefs. As Is Everyone Else. Laws Are Passed Based On The Common Good The People. And Seeing As Men Are Not Even Close To Being Affected By This As Women Are. The Laws Should Be Passed Based On The Common Good Of The Women


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

Kaede Nova said:


> You Are Entitled To Your Beliefs. As Is Everyone Else. Laws Are Passed Based On The Common Good The People. And Seeing As Men Are Not Even Close To Being Affected By This As Women Are. The Laws Should Be Passed Based On The Common Good Of The Women


If I am entitled to my beliefs this statement is wrong as I did not go the extra step to force or even ask for one to change their beliefs. "By Saying That We Need More Restrictions On Abortion, While You Cant Even Conceive Is You Cramming Your Beliefs Down People Throats."

- - - Post Merge - - -



visibleghost said:


> cool then don't get an abortion but don't try to make it harder for people who need or want an abortion to get one lol


If I had the choice I would as I don't believe abortion to be as light of a practice as you do. Does saying this mean I cramming a belief down your throat if it is I don't even know why people debate.


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> If I am entitled to my beliefs this statement is wrong as I did not go the extra step to force or even ask for one to change their beliefs. "By Saying That We Need More Restrictions On Abortion, While You Cant Even Conceive Is You Cramming Your Beliefs Down People Throats."
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



so you want to force women and trans people to suffer through a pregnancy, everything that comes with it (financial struggles, judgement, physical and mental pain etc), and maybe have to raise the child for at least 18 years when they don't want to because you think that a fetus is worth more than the person who is pregnant lmaooooo........,..


----------



## Fleshy (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> If I had the choice I would as I don't believe abortion to be as light of a practice as you do. Does saying this mean I cramming a belief down your throat if it is I don't even know why people debate.



To be honest that's worse than "cramming your opinion down peoples throat" that's saying if you had the choice you would take over control of someone's body.

An opinion would be something like "I don't agree with abortion at all, I would never have one, it's killing a child" etc. etc. but saying if you could, you would take that right away from people, that's more than an opinion imo.


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> so you want to force women and trans people to suffer through a pregnancy, everything that comes with it (financial struggles, judgement, physical and mental pain etc), and maybe have to raise the child for at least 18 years when they don't want to because you think that a fetus is worth more than the person who is pregnant lmaooooo........,..


No, don't have the pregnancy in the first place don't even have premarital sex for that matter. It's not worth killing a life.I believe life begins at contraception.  If you deem it's more important as you want to risk it to financial struggles judgement physical and mental pain oh well your choice. But I don't believe abortion should exist as your oh well let's eradicate the baby as I don't want the biproduct, nothing's wrong with that.

- - - Post Merge - - -



FleshyBro said:


> To be honest that's worse than "cramming your opinion down peoples throat" that's saying if you had the choice you would take over control of someone's body.
> 
> An opinion would be something like "I don't agree with abortion at all, I would never have one, it's killing a child" etc. etc. but saying if you could, you would take that right away from people, that's more than an opinion imo.


Did what I just say influence or force your belief, no right? What your saying is solely dependent on if your belief is in align with mine.


----------



## Wisteria Rytsar (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> If I am entitled to my beliefs this statement is wrong as I did not go the extra step to force or even ask for one to change their beliefs. "By Saying That We Need More Restrictions On Abortion, While You Cant Even Conceive Is You Cramming Your Beliefs Down People Throats."
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



I See What You Are Saying So Allow Me To Clarify My Words. If Outside Of This Discussion You Were To Take Any Sort Of Action Following Your Beliefs And Attempt To Restrict Abortion, Then My Statement Of "By Saying That We Need More Restrictions On Abortion, While You Can't Even Conceive Is You Cramming Your Beliefs Down People's Throats." Would Be Made True Because I, By My Own Fault, Didn't Clarify That I Was Talking About Any Action That You Were To Pursue. Not Your Expression Of Your Beliefs Through Dialogue. Does That Make Sense?


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> No, don't have the pregnancy in the first place don't even have premarital sex for that matter. It's not worth killing a life.I believe life begins at contraception.  If you deem it's more important as you want to risk it to financial struggles judgement physical and mental pain oh well your choice. But I don't believe abortion should exist as your oh well let's eradicate the baby as I don't want the biproduct, nothing's wrong with that.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



oh my god nah people aren't going to stop having sex, still rape victims exist so :^)
and just because someone is married doesn't mean they want a child. 

but yeah w/e go love these fetuses and value them way more than the people having them inside of them. lol.


----------



## #1 Senpai (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> No, don't have the pregnancy in the first place don't even have premarital sex for that matter. It's not worth killing a life.I believe life begins at contraception.  If you deem it's more important as you want to risk it to financial struggles judgement physical and mental pain oh well your choice. But I don't believe abortion should exist as your oh well let's eradicate the baby as I don't want the biproduct, nothing's wrong with that.


"don't have the pregnancy in the first place" lmaoo


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> oh my god nah people aren't going to stop having sex, still rape victims exist so :^)
> and just because someone is married doesn't mean they want a child.
> 
> but yeah w/e go love these fetuses and value them way more than the people having them inside of them. lol.


No their value is equal. A person with a defect or disability is valued equally to a normal human on a moral standpoint and a "fetus" should be as well. I don't even care about the circumstances an unborn child should have the right to live.

- - - Post Merge - - -



#1 Senpai said:


> "don't have the pregnancy in the first place" lmaoo


I mean don't even risk it if you don't have what it takes to take care of the biproduct of your actions.


----------



## Fleshy (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> Did what I just say influence or force your belief, no right? What your saying is solely dependent on if your belief is in align with mine.



No. You said you would revoke the rights someone has over their body if you could. I would still think that's wrong, even if I were against abortion.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Danielkang2 said:


> I mean don't even risk it if you don't have what it takes to take care of the biproduct of your actions.



It's been said already on this thread, but a child is not a punishment for having sex.


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> No. You said you would revoke the rights someone has over their body if you could. I would still think that's wrong, even if I were against abortion.


An unborn child should be entitlted to life, abortion strips it away. I believe at contraception the baby's potential starts unfolding.


----------



## Aali (Jul 6, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> No. You said you would revoke the rights someone has over their body if you could. I would still think that's wrong, even if I were against abortion.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



Then people should be able to get abortions. So a child is not portrayed as one. 

If I got pregnet and couldn't get an abortion. I would see it as a punishment


----------



## #1 Senpai (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> I mean don't even risk it if you don't have what it takes to take care of the biproduct of your actions.


Don't risk it? Sex will always be around. Plus not every pregnancy is due to the fact that both male and female decided to have sex because they want to. There are those who are forced to do sexual intercourse like wth lol


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

I completely disagree with the idea of abortion being your way out of the biproduct of your actions. The thought that people believe aborting a child is like their safety net from what entails them after the child is born.


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> No their value is equal. A person with a defect or disability is valued equally to a normal human on a moral standpoint and a "fetus" should be as well. I don't even care about the circumstances an unborn child should have the right to live.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



did you seriously just say that a person with a "defect" or disability is just as human as a "normal human" ? and that a fetus should be as well ?  because suddenly people with disabilities are on the same level of a fetus? and we are not "normal humans"? lmao this is the most ableist **** ive read all day 

?? they do have what it takes to take care of the biproduct tho? they get an abortion :^)


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

Rape is a tragedy and in those cases more thinking is needed and the specifics are what's important.

- - - Post Merge - - -



visibleghost said:


> did you seriously just say that a person with a "defect" or disability is just as human as a "normal human" ? and that a fetus should be as well ?  because suddenly people with disabilities are on the same level of a fetus? and we are not "normal humans"? lmao this is the most ableist **** ive read all day
> 
> ?? they do have what it takes to take care of the biproduct tho? they get an abortion :^)


No all of them should be on the same level not disabled children degraded to a fetus like wth.


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> An unborn child should be entitlted to life, abortion strips it away. I believe at contraception the baby's potential starts unfolding.



you value the rights of an unborn thing that cannot survive without the suffering of another human over the rights of the pregnant person. lmao......................


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> you value the rights of an unborn thing that cannot survive without the suffering of another human over the rights of the pregnant person. lmao......................


No, the pregnant person does not die. The unborn child does that's what's different. If both or either would die based on decision then that changes things.


----------



## #1 Senpai (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> Rape is a tragedy and in those cases more thinking is needed and the specifics are what's important.



I cannot with this lol. More thinking and the specifics?? What is 'more thinking' going to do in the basis of a rape case where the mother doesn't want the rapist's foetus...the heck


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

#1 Senpai said:


> Don't risk it? Sex will always be around. Plus not every pregnancy is due to the fact that both male and female decided to have sex because they want to. There are those who are forced to do sexual intercourse like wth lol


Yes well abortion shouldn't. There is a definite bioproduct and abortion shouldn't be your safety net.

- - - Post Merge - - -



#1 Senpai said:


> I cannot with this lol. More thinking and the specifics?? What is 'more thinking' going to do in the basis of a rape case where the mother doesn't want the rapist's foetus...the heck


If the "Fetus"is not alive your statement makes complete and utter sense and what I said is ludicracy but if it is alive or at the stance of where I believe it does,the specifics matter.


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> No, the pregnant person does not die. The unborn child does that's what's different. If both or either would die based on decision then that changes things.



the fetus doesnt die because it isn't alive but yeah whatever

and the pregnant person might go through trauma, suffering, financial issues, etc etc etc that ruins their life. :^) 
they can stop it, so they do. great !!

and pls what do you have to say about my point earlier when i said that this is the same as that ppl can't be forced to donate bone marrow or something :^)


----------



## Fleshy (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> An unborn child should be entitlted to life, abortion strips it away. I believe at contraception the baby's potential starts unfolding.



Yes that's your belief, cool. What i'm saying is that it's wrong to take away the rights someone has over their body just because you don't agree with it, as you said before that if you could you would make it harder for people to have abortions, that's wrong and not just an opinion, you want to make people's life harder and take away rights they have.



Aali said:


> Then people should be able to get abortions. So a child is not portrayed as one.
> 
> If I got pregnet and couldn't get an abortion. I would see it as a punishment



I know, I'm pro choice. What I was saying is that if you force people to go through pregnancy and keep a child the don't want, that's making children a punishment for sex, and they are not and should not be seen that way.



Danielkang2 said:


> No, the pregnant person does not die. The unborn child does that's what's different. If both or either would die based on decision then that changes things.



The pregnant person does not die with abortion yes, but if you got your way and "made it harder" for people to get abortions, that's when pregnant people would start dying as they'd do it illegally and dangerously. That's one of the reasons why making it harder for people to get abortions is definitely not a good idea.


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> well ok so here's the thing
> 
> no one is ever legally required to give blood or donate organs, mone marrow or w/e to their dying relative or whowver needs it. even if it would save their life. even if it would be very little effort and no pain for the donating person. it is their choice if they want to donate. the same way that it is a pregnant person's choice if they want to keep supporting a fetus in their uterus.
> even if that thing is alive, it still needs the pregnant person's body's support in order to live.  and if the pregnant person does not want to offer that support they should not be legally required to.
> ...


Yes they are not required but do they, yes. Why? Since the life is more important. If my family member would refuse that would just be selfishness this is if the person needing it asks for it.

- - - Post Merge - - -

FleshyBro, you've repeated the same thing over and over again. Since it is in line with my belief if I was in the position to I would make it harder for abortions to be done or restrict it.


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> Yes they are not required but do they, yes. Why? Since the life is more important. If my family member would refuse that would just be selfishness this is if the person needing it asks for it.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> FleshyBro, you've repeated the same thing over and over again. Since it is in line with my belief if I was in the position to I would make it harder for abortions to be done or restrict it.



ye obviously everyone can have their own opinion on whether it's  morally right or wrong to not donate or to get an abortion. but the law can't decide if it's right or wrong, and that's the point. people who don't want to do somethign like that shouldn't have to. so they get their abortion and then they're happy yayyy everything's great


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

The pregnant person does not die with abortion yes, but if you got your way and "made it harder" for people to get abortions, that's when pregnant people would start dying as they'd do it illegally and dangerously. That's one of the reasons why making it harder for people to get abortions is definitely not a good idea.
Here's where my argument comes in, if abortion was illegal how drastically will the amount of abortions be decreased? Easily 99 percent. The people who would go to that great of a length is because of an outside pressure and people like this would be very few. Most women if they became pregnant aside of rape would not go through an abortion if it wasn't legal and if they did it would most likely be because of an outside pressure.That's why I said I'd restrict it. For circumstances of rape and other fine lines.
Between the two choices yes I would choose what I had said.


----------



## #1 Senpai (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> Yes well abortion shouldn't. There is a definite bioproduct and abortion shouldn't be your safety net.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...


My statement does make complete and utter sense. But what can a foetus that is in a _woman's_ womb do with what specifics matter and don't matter? It should be the mother's choice to abort if they want to and feel comfortable going to an abortion clinic. Without the woman, the foetus is nothing and not alive.


----------



## Fleshy (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> Yes they are not required but do they, yes. Why? Since the life is more important. If my family member would refuse that would just be selfishness this is if the person needing it asks for it.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> FleshyBro, you've repeated the same thing over and over again. Since it is in line with my belief if I was in the position to I would make it harder for abortions to be done or restrict it.



The life is important yes, as that's a living family member that you've bonded with and love, so the chances are most people would donate to their family member because they want to keep that family member alive, but they don't want to keep the fetus alive, so surely the should have the same choice there and not have to keep the fetus? I think the point is that you have a choice when it comes to donation, and you should have the same choice when it comes to abortion. 

Yes I repeated the same thing a few times as you replied with something different and the point was relevant again. To think you can restrict someone's right's just because of your beliefs is messed up imo, but i'll leave that point there as i've said all already.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Danielkang2 said:


> Here's where my argument comes in, if abortion was illegal how drastically will the amount of abortions be decreased? Easily 99 percent. The people who would go to that great of a length is because of an outside pressure and people like this would be very few. Most women if they became pregnant aside of rape would not go through an abortion if it wasn't legal and if they did it would most likely be because of an outside pressure.That's why I said I'd restrict it. For circumstances of rape and other fine lines.
> Between the two choices yes I would choose what I had said.




​
That was back in the 50's. There's much more people having casual sex now, so I'm sure if abortion were to be restricted that number would go up. I personalty don't see 5,000+ preventable deaths a year as "very few".


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

#1 Senpai said:


> My statement does make complete and utter sense. But what can a foetus that is in a _woman's_ womb do with what specifics matter and don't matter? It should be the mother's choice to abort if they want to and feel comfortable going to an abortion clinic. Without the woman, the foetus is nothing and not alive.



You are literally repeating what you said and I will repeat what I said. You believe the fetus is not alive in that case you are 100percent correct eradicate. But with when I believe it is alive specifics are important. You are completely dismissing that there is a possibility that the baby is alive.

- - - Post Merge - - -

This day science is unclear of when life begins but lets theorize that science has finally proven that "scientific life" began earlier than what abortion restrictions were set at then would the aborted children have been murder? Id like to know.

- - - Post Merge - - -

Fleshybro yes that was in the 50s if abortion was restricted casual sex would be much less and even if a baby was born I dont believe most people would go to lengths of having an abortion. If uou disagree please say so


----------



## Aali (Jul 6, 2016)

Men should understand what happened AFTER a woman gives birth 

It shortens her life span, weakens her body, some get permanent 'baby fat' that you have to get plastic surgery to get rid of. And not to mention you get stuck with a child you may have not even wanted in the first place. And that's just the tip of the iceberg


----------



## Nightmares (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> Animals are no way equivalent to us, humans are so much more precious and you aren't just removing a fetus from a womb. Even if you do argue that a fetus "removed" during abortion is not a human which I disagree with.(only at the stage when it's usually done in abortion) it's as close as you're going to get to a human and even possibly at the stage where it is no different to a human. You shouldn't even risk it. It's a irreplaceable and unique set of genetics and life in it's early stages. How can you compare to killing an animal and even if you do don't you eat meat right?There's nothing wrong in eating meat. Are you saying it's suddenly not the same thing since the person raising the animals for you to eat is this horrible being smh. Abortion should be a last resort not something to be tossed around and spoken in the same context of eating your "freshly" made hamburger, ugh.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> Have you seen abortion pictures? You can see that especially in later stages that it's a living being not something you can just eradicate from your body. If even one baby is killed by mistake or not, through abortion when it could have lived I believe it's unacceptable. But heck it's not one baby we're talking about that have died undisputably by the process. I've actually talked with an assistant doctor who's witnessed abortion countless times. This isn't evidence or anything at all but how she talked of her job was just gut wrenching. The way she described it and the details of the actual act was disgusting, she felt that it was wrong too not that it even matters.



I don't get what's wrong with abortion
It's not even alive, whereas animals are.

- - - Post Merge - - -



FleshyBro said:


> Humans are animals, so yes, we are equivalent to animals, because _we are animals_. Can you explain what makes humans more precious than other animals, is it out ability to mass murder, destroy the world? because honestly humans are ruining the world, so what makes them so precious? You also realise animals have "a irreplaceable and unique set of genetics" too? that's not just reserved for the wonderful precious humans by the way.
> 
> Oh yeah, how can you compare taking a pill to remove some unwanted cells from your body (early stages) to hanging an animal upside down, slitting their throat, and leaving them like that until they're drained of blood, only then to go and chop up their body to eat! What a weird comparison right, obviously the first is the worst!
> 
> ...



Yeah, I totally agree with this

- - - Post Merge - - -



Danielkang2 said:


> Human beings literally defined what the word animal means. Even if you say that animals are humans, humans are the only ones that would categorize themselves to be.And counterpart humans are the only ones that can oppose to the idea of being an animal. We have far superior intelligence reasoning ration and emotions than animals. If you would categorize us in animals we would be Super-Animals. The fact that we can destroy the world like you said should entitle us to being seperate from animals, we're simply superior. I also didn't say that only humans have genes that's stupid. Taking a pill seriously? Not even gonna comment you're only saying that since you would rather state that one than the other. Humans have the right of killing and any other "animal" you speak of when it sustains us, or provides us with something we can use that's where the argument ends unlike abortion. Your 3rd argument I believe life starts at contraception and I'm not going to argue with you about that since we have completely different beliefs and it's not just religion. Legalizing abortion is not a bad thing, it is how there is no restriction there is it on it.



So the more intelligent you are, the important you are? Is that your point


----------



## #1 Senpai (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> You are literally repeating what you said and I will repeat what I said. You believe the fetus is not alive in that case you are 100percent correct eradicate. But with when I believe it is alive specifics are important. You are completely dismissing that there is a possibility that the baby is alive.


It isn't even a baby. The fetus may be alive, but even if it were alive, the woman still should be able to abort without specifics being important.  wth lol


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

Aali said:


> Men should understand what happened AFTER a woman gives birth
> 
> It shortens her life span, weakens her body, some get permanent 'baby fat' that you have to get plastic surgery to get rid of. And not to mention you get stuck with a child you may have not even wanted in the first place. And that's just the tip of the iceberg



Yes I am fully aware


----------



## Wish (Jul 6, 2016)

this thread is so hilarious to read lmao people against abortions are probably people who also eat meat :^) is that not murder? were humans born to eat meat?

the bigotry is real


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

#1 Senpai said:


> It isn't even a baby. The fetus may be alive, but even if it were alive, the woman still should be able to abort without specifics being important.  wth lol



Even if it were alive? Ok so in the case of rape you are entitled to murder? Did the unborn child do anything wrong? No.


----------



## Nightmares (Jul 6, 2016)

Wish said:


> this thread is so hilarious to read lmao people against abortions are probably people who also eat meat :^) is that not murder? were humans born to eat meat?
> 
> the bigotry is real



Yeah, that's what I was saying, by apparently they're just "animals" and not intelligent, so we can kill them


----------



## Fleshy (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> Fleshybro yes that was in the 50s if abortion was restricted casual sex would be much less and even if a baby was born I dont believe most people would go to lengths of having an abortion. If uou disagree please say so



Yes I do disagree, many people who have casual sex get abortions because they're young, or they're poor, homeless, trans, unable to look after a child, endless reasons really. Do you think abortion is an easy choice for people? No, it isn't. These people I mentioned want abortions and need them, they need them so yes many of them would get unsafe abortions if abortion was illegal/restricted. I also don't at all think that people would stop having casual sex because abortions are restricted, that is not likely at all. Bad things happen when abortion is illegal, you don't have to agree with it, but surely you understand why some people need one? and what can happen if they don't get one safely?


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

Wish said:


> this thread is so hilarious to read lmao people against abortions are probably people who also eat meat :^) is that not murder? were humans born to eat meat?
> 
> the bigotry is real



Yes I absolutely love meat its delicious and being guilty of it is literally idiocy. When you kill a cow is it wrong? It depends if it was to use then no if it was for your pleasure ofc not. Animals shouldnt even be compared to us. We can use them for sustenance but not for the purpose of killing. We should go start accusing a lion for eating another animal like srsly???


----------



## Cudon (Jul 6, 2016)

Nightmares said:


> Yeah, that's what I was saying, by apparently they're just "animals" and not intelligent, so we can kill them


I'm pretty sure fetuses and such are rather unintelligent as well and most likely act in a much more animalistic way than we grown humans do.


----------



## Nightmares (Jul 6, 2016)

Dinomates said:


> I'm pretty sure fetuses and such are rather unintelligent as well and most likely act in a much more animalistic way than we grown humans do.



Wait are you disagreeing or agreeing with me xD


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

Nightmares said:


> Wait are you disagreeing or agreeing with me xD



Do you eat meat? This is hilarious but Im not joking.


----------



## Cudon (Jul 6, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> I also don't at all think that people would stop having casual sex because abortions are restricted, that is not likely at all. Bad things happen when abortion is illegal, you don't have to agree with it, but surely you understand why some people need one? and what can happen if they don't get one safely?


In America sex ed seems to be often taught in a very ''DONT DO IT YOULL FACE THE CONSEQUENCES BAD BAD BAD''-way and there are still plenty of teens having sex at a young age. By Daniels logic the amount of teens having sex should be low considering that they're taught sex is bad.


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

Wish you too


----------



## Fleshy (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> Even if it were alive? Ok so in the case of rape you are entitled to murder? Did the unborn child do anything wrong? No.



You do realise how tramatising that is? Yes the fetus did nothing wrong, but going through a pregnancy and birthing a child that is a product of abuse would be so tramutising for a person. When you've been abused, things reminding you of that abuse, it's so awful, I can't explain it. When you see something that reminds you of a terrible thing that happened, you often want to destroy it, rip it up, seeing that reminder makes a victim feel worthless. I can only imagine what it would be like, going through a nine month pregnancy and bringing up a child that is a constant reminder of your abuse, the thought of someone going through that makes me feel so ill. That pain is unnecessary and can be solved with abortion if that is what the pregnant person wants.


----------



## Cudon (Jul 6, 2016)

Nightmares said:


> Wait are you disagreeing or agreeing with me xD


I'm comparing fetuses to the ''unintelligent animals'' that Daniel is okay with killing. Fetuses themselves are very animalistic and unintelligent so why is killing them any worse?


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

Dinomates said:


> In America sex ed seems to be often taught in a very ''DONT DO IT YOULL FACE THE CONSEQUENCES BAD BAD BAD''-way and there are still plenty of teens having sex at a young age. By Daniels logic the amount of teens having sex should be low considering that they're taught sex is bad.



No dont put deterrent teaching and having to get your baby eradicated at the same level.


----------



## Nightmares (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> Do you eat meat? This is hilarious but Im not joking.



No, I'm vegetarian....? 
If I was making these points and I ate meat....that's weird

- - - Post Merge - - -



Dinomates said:


> I'm comparing fetuses to the ''unintelligent animals'' that Daniel is okay with killing. Fetuses themselves are very animalistic and unintelligent so why is killing them any worse?



Yeah but they're not even alive lmao


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

Dinomates said:


> I'm comparing fetuses to the ''unintelligent animals'' that Daniel is okay with killing. Fetuses themselves are very animalistic and unintelligent so why is killing them any worse?



I cant even believe Im arguing this. Are you going to use the fetus for sustenance?

- - - Post Merge - - -



Nightmares said:


> No, I'm vegetarian....?
> If I was making these points and I ate meat....that's weird
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> ...



I respect vegetarians but I dont respect putting animals at the same level as us.


----------



## #1 Senpai (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> Even if it were alive? Ok so in the case of rape you are entitled to murder? Did the unborn child do anything wrong? No.


Is it really murder tho??????????????????
Even if the foetus did nothing wrong, the woman will have to bear the by-product made by the RAPIST if she decides to keep it because abortion is illegal. Giving birth to a rapist's child can have more psychological and trauma for the mother. 
Plus, the "right to life" shouldn't imply a right to live by threatening someone else's which is the woman's. Having children will always be somewhat a threat to the life of the woman.


----------



## Fleshy (Jul 6, 2016)

Dinomates said:


> I'm comparing fetuses to the ''unintelligent animals'' that Daniel is okay with killing. Fetuses themselves are very animalistic and unintelligent so why is killing them any worse?



Because you're killing the animal for your pleasure, but you're "killing" the fetus just for the sake of killing, obviously. because there's no real reasons for getting an abortion right? people just walk into hospitals like "lmao im pregnant and feel a lil murderous lets do this". Never mind the fact that these animals suffer and are murdered just for humans taste-buds, but clearly that's alright, because they're useless, unlike us Precious Humans./s


----------



## Nightmares (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> I cant even believe Im arguing this. Are you going to use the fetus for sustenance?
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



Well thanks xD

I kinda agree that animals are below us, but not any less important...? Does that make sense


----------



## Aali (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> Yes I am fully aware



And yet you want women to be forced to go through that? I know it's yo opinion but I think that's f***ed up


----------



## #1 Senpai (Jul 6, 2016)

For the woman to see the child of a rapist's face everyday would most likely be traumatising for them as they will be able to see the rapist's face and be reminded everyday of what has happened to them. It's selfish really.


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

Aali said:


> And yet you want women to be forced to go through that? I know it's yo opinion but I think that's f***ed up


Again child bearing is truly difficult but while knowing that and bh having casual sex you are accepting that pregnancy is a risk and from there Im saying abortion is not acceptable.


----------



## Aali (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> Again child bearing is truly difficult but while knowing that and bh having casual sex you are accepting that pregnancy is a risk and from there Im saying abortion is not acceptable.



So kids should be deemed as a punishment? Don't shame people for having casual sex.


----------



## Fleshy (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> Again child bearing is truly difficult but while knowing that and bh having casual sex you are accepting that pregnancy is a risk and from there Im saying abortion is not acceptable.



So you should have to go through an unwanted pregnancy, risk possible complications, go through physical and emotional changes and financial burdens as well as look after a child for at least 18 years just because you chose to have casual sex? that doesn't seem _slightly_ unfair to you at all?


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

#1 Senpai said:


> For the woman to see the child of a rapist's face everyday would most likely be traumatising for them as they will be able to see the rapist's face and be reminded everyday of what has happened to them. It's selfish really.


Conception doesnt happen immediately but after pregnancy the important part ks that the rapist was the aggressor and the baby had no part. It is indeed a grave tragedy. I would say it could ne considered. What I would really like to note is that instances like this is no arguement to on demand abortion. Its not relevant as aboortion can be for gender selection convenience etc.

- - - Post Merge - - -



FleshyBro said:


> So you should have to go through an unwanted pregnancy, risk possible complications, go through physical and emotional changes and financial burdens as well as look after a child for at least 18 years just because you chose to have casual sex? that doesn't seem _slightly_ unfair to you at all?



But you knew of the risk and knew of your only way out which is abortion. You were risking on the pregnancy not happening for pleasure. I do think its unfair I also think the unfairness should be a massive deterrent. Children these days are being less and less wanted.


----------



## #1 Senpai (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> Conception doesnt happen immediately but after pregnancy the important part ks that the rapist was the aggressor and the baby had no part. It is indeed a grave tragedy. I would say it could ne considered. What I would really like to note is that instances like this is no arguement to on demand abortion. Its not relevant as aboortion can be for gender selection convenience etc.


Yes it is a grave tragedy and yes the rapist was the aggressor and the foetus had no part in it. Even though the foetus had no part in the rape, it will be deemed as a consequence and the mother will have to risk her life for a foetus that isn't even alive and she didn't want?


----------



## Aali (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> Conception doesnt happen immediately but after pregnancy the important part ks that the rapist was the aggressor and the baby had no part. It is indeed a grave tragedy. I would say it could ne considered. What I would really like to note is that instances like this is no arguement to on demand abortion. Its not relevant as aboortion can be for gender selection convenience etc.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



Ok, let me get this straight? You think if women enage in casual sex they should be forved to have the kid as punishment BUT if a women is forced to have sex AGAISNT HER WILL she should be forced to carry and give birth to that child? How in any world or reality does that make sense to you?!


----------



## #1 Senpai (Jul 6, 2016)

anyways im out, too sleepy for this debate


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

Aali said:


> Ok, let me get this straight? You think if women enage in casual sex they should be forved to have the kid as punishment BUT if a women is forced to have sex AGAISNT HER WILL she should be forced to carry and give birth to that child? How in any world or reality does that make sense to you?!


First off not as punishment its an undeniable risk of huge responsibility. Second both involve a life where the second is much more a fine line where I even said it should be considered on if truly the baby could be cared for. Im not talking financially.


----------



## Cudon (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> Conception doesnt happen immediately but after pregnancy the important part ks that the rapist was the aggressor and the baby had no part. It is indeed a grave tragedy. I would say it could ne considered. What I would really like to note is that instances like this is no arguement to on demand abortion. Its not relevant as aboortion can be for gender selection convenience etc.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...


The way you view sex is rather negative. Are you asexual or something? Either way what's the punishment for men then? Cuz I'm pretty sure pregnancy happens with a male and a female. Should only the female be punished or?

Also it's of course a little bit illogical for a woman to look at her child from rape and go ''this is my rapist, this is my punishment'' But it will happen, because people are often more emotional than logical.


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

#1 Senpai said:


> Yes it is a grave tragedy and yes the rapist was the aggressor and the foetus had no part in it. Even though the foetus had no part in the rape, it will be deemed as a consequence and the mother will have to risk her life for a foetus that isn't even alive and she didn't want?



What do you mean risk her life?


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> Again child bearing is truly difficult but while knowing that and bh having casual sex you are accepting that pregnancy is a risk and from there Im saying abortion is not acceptable.



no. lol.
people should protect themselves as much as they can, yes (using a condom) but if they still get pregnant it's not their fault, they should not have to be told "uh you had sex so clearly you wanted a child -_-" lmao that's just limiting (usually) females' sexuality because ofc the person who's not pregnant but who still created the baby can just walk away and have as much sex as they want w/o the consequence of being pregnant and having a child


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

Dinomates said:


> The way you view sex is rather negative. Are you asexual or something? Either way what's the punishment for men then? Cuz I'm pretty sure pregnancy happens with a male and a female. Should only the female be punished or?
> 
> Also it's of course a little bit illogical for a woman to look at her child from rape and go ''this is my rapist, this is my punishment'' But it will happen, because people are often more emotional than logical.



Biologically speaking the man has no responsibility  I still dont think its right but yeah.

- - - Post Merge - - -



visibleghost said:


> no. lol.
> people should protect themselves as much as they can, yes (using a condom) but if they still get pregnant it's not their fault, they should not have to be told "uh you had sex so clearly you wanted a child -_-" lmao that's just limiting (usually) females' sexuality because ofc the person who's not pregnant but who still created the baby can just walk away and have as much sex as they want w/o the consequence of being pregnant and having a child



I said risk if you know what that means.


----------



## Cudon (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> What do you mean risk her life?


So since senpai left. Birthing isn't easy and having to deal with an unwanted child from being raped for 18+ years will most likely cause psychological trauma and pain. It may also prevent the woman from doing what she wanted to do with her life due to the child costing too much or taking too much time --> Depression.
When you get a child you have to stop being selfish and devote yourself to the child instead, not everyone wants to do that.


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

I think sex should be for marriage as apart from its just pleasure.


----------



## Cudon (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> I think sex should be for marriage as apart from its just pleasure.


That's just you though? You can't put that opinion onto everyone. I personally have very little interest in sex and find it gross in a way, but I still understand as to why someone would have sex for the heck of it also many view sex as a romantic thing and you don't have to be married to have a romantic interest in someone.


----------



## Aali (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> I think sex should be for marriage as apart from its just pleasure.



What if the married couple don't want a kid? I plan to wait until marriage but I don;t wannt children in the slightest


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

Dinomates said:


> So since senpai left. Birthing isn't easy and having to deal with an unwanted child from being raped for 18+ years will most likely cause psychological trauma and pain. It may also prevent the woman from doing what she wanted to do with her life due to the child costing too much or taking too much time --> Depression.
> When you get a child you have to stop being selfish and devote yourself to the child instead, not everyone wants to do that.



Yes but risk your life are not the correct words. Ofc not everyone wants to do that its completely fine but if going by the logic that the baby is indeed alive abortion is still not the way. Like I said in this case it can be considered. What really makes me shiver is on demand abortion.


----------



## Fleshy (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> I think sex should be for marriage as apart from its just pleasure.



Well the vast majority of people don't see it that way, and those people should have access to an abortion if needed and wanted.


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

FleshyBro said:


> Well the vast majority of people don't see it that way, and those people should have access to an abortion if needed and wanted.



Yes I understand your point of you if you believe the baby is not alive.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Aali said:


> What if the married couple don't want a kid? I plan to wait until marriage but I don;t wannt children in the slightest



Birth Control


----------



## Aali (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> Yes I understand your point of you if you believe the baby is not alive.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



It doesn;t always work, after a while your body can get used to it and the effects stop working. Plus side effects like weight gain

- - - Post Merge - - -

Not saying people shouldn't use birth control, it just doesn't solve the problem all the time


----------



## Danielkang2 (Jul 6, 2016)

Aali said:


> It doesn;t always work, after a while your body can get used to it and the effects stop working. Plus side effects like weight gain
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> Not saying people shouldn't use birth control, it just doesn't solve the problem all the time



Yes uou are right but like iuds are extremely effective. The slim chance it does well I honestly have no idea.-


----------



## Wish (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> Yes I absolutely love meat its delicious and being guilty of it is literally idiocy. When you kill a cow is it wrong? It depends if it was to use then no if it was for your pleasure ofc not. Animals shouldnt even be compared to us. We can use them for sustenance but not for the purpose of killing. We should go start accusing a lion for eating another animal like srsly???



lions are carnivores, we are omnivores. they eat to survive and about 2/3 of the meat produced in america is thrown away because it gets spoiled before it reaches the table. idiocy? the fact that you say that just shows how pretentious and superior you feel about yourself compared to other species.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Danielkang2 said:


> Even if it were alive? Ok so in the case of rape you are entitled to murder? Did the unborn child do anything wrong? No.



oh my god you are a caveman stuck in the stone age

- - - Post Merge - - -



Aali said:


> What if the married couple don't want a kid? I plan to wait until marriage but I don;t wannt children in the slightest



please don't listen to the other guy. birth control pills are horrible for you and severely mess with your hormones and body. preventing pregnancy is really simple if you understand your ovulation. there are only 6 days you can get pregnant in every cycle, five days before ovulation and the day of ovulation.

of course that doesn't mean you should go around having sex without condoms, though.


----------



## visibleghost (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> Yes uou are right but like iuds are extremely effective. The slim chance it does well I honestly have no idea.-



using contraceptives is still only safe 99% of the time. yes it is way more safe than unprotected sex, obviously, but it's not like one person in a million who gets pregnant even though they used contraceptives, there are way more.
while IUDs seem to be good and very effective, it doesn't mean that it's 100% safe either.

and still, it doesn't mean that people who get pregnant when they don't want to be pregnant (no matter how they got pregnant, yes it's not good to not use a condom but even the people who used no contraceptives during sex shouldn't have to give birth to a child they don't want) should have to continue the pregnancy.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Wish said:


> lions are carnivores, we are omnivores. they eat to survive and about 2/3 of the meat produced in america is thrown away because it gets spoiled before it reaches the table. idiocy? the fact that you say that just shows how pretentious and superior you feel about yourself compared to other species.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



while it's true that birth control pills can have bad side effects (everything from depression, fatigue, gaining weight etc to lack of sex lust and stuff) they aren't evil and they do work for a lot of people.

and while it's true that it is possible to keep track of your menstrual cycle it's not really the perfect contraceptive and i still think ppl should use condoms but yeah that's just my opinion )x


----------



## Tensu (Jul 6, 2016)

This disagreement really just comes down to one thing. I personally believe that life starts at conception, so I feel it is murder. But if you believe life starts at birth, you'd have a different opinion.


----------



## seliph (Jul 6, 2016)

Danielkang2 said:


> An unborn child should be entitlted to life, abortion strips it away.



And going through with an unwanted pregnancy + having a baby + raising it strips the mother's life away.... holy **** my dude do you even care about women/people with uteri or do you only care about the unborn, unthinking blobs of flesh they have the ability to carry



Danielkang2 said:


> Rape is a tragedy and in those cases more thinking is needed and the specifics are what's important.


It really doesn't require that much thinking nor does it require to be any more "specific" than "I was raped"



Danielkang2 said:


> Here's where my argument comes in, if abortion was illegal how drastically will the amount of abortions be decreased? Easily 99 percent. The people who would go to that great of a length is because of an outside pressure and people like this would be very few. Most women if they became pregnant aside of rape would not go through an abortion if it wasn't legal and if they did it would most likely be because of an outside pressure.That's why I said I'd restrict it. For circumstances of rape and other fine lines.
> Between the two choices yes I would choose what I had said.



Where did you get these wildly inaccurate statistics LMAO
If you illegalized abortion people would still have them, just unsafely. If someone didn't want to be pregnant, coat hanger abortions wouldn't hesitate to make a comeback.



Danielkang2 said:


> Even if it were alive? Ok so in the case of rape you are entitled to murder? Did the unborn child do anything wrong? No.



Are you serious? Do you have any idea how traumatizing, how terrible rape is? The victim's life is already ruined, and now you want to force them to have to go through with a pregnancy? You're sick.

-

Here's some questions for you: Are you against same-sex couples having casual sex too? Do you speak out against the men that are also having casual sex? Or do you only hate women?


----------



## Aali (Jul 6, 2016)

i told someone not to be rude and staff removed their post and mine.

Why mine tho?


----------



## seliph (Jul 6, 2016)

Aali said:


> i told someone not to be rude and staff removed their post and mine.
> 
> Why mine tho?



Some staff don't like it when people are a little challenging towards rapist apologists uwu


----------



## Twisterheart (Jul 6, 2016)

visibleghost said:


> using contraceptives is still only safe 99% of the time. yes it is way more safe than unprotected sex, obviously, but it's not like one person in a million who gets pregnant even though they used contraceptives, there are way more.
> while IUDs seem to be good and very effective, it doesn't mean that it's 100% safe either.
> 
> and still, it doesn't mean that people who get pregnant when they don't want to be pregnant (no matter how they got pregnant, yes it's not good to not use a condom but even the people who used no contraceptives during sex shouldn't have to give birth to a child they don't want) should have to continue the pregnancy.
> ...



Yeah, birth control pills aren't evil at all. I've been taking them for several years to help regulate my cycle, and while I'm not sexually active, they have really helped me a lot. I am fortunate to not experience any serious side effects. People should still be careful though because things can happen. I have heard stories where couples have been on several different types of birth control and still ended up pregnant, so things can still happen. You just have to be cautious.


----------



## piichinu (Jul 6, 2016)

when people say abortions prevent life but say to use contraceptives which also prevent life ://////////


----------



## Nightmares (Jul 6, 2016)

Aali said:


> i told someone not to be rude and staff removed their post and mine.
> 
> Why mine tho?



Probably because you quoted them?


----------



## discopolice (Jul 6, 2016)

Whew, this blew up! Let's get to it. Danielkang, looking at your profile, you're _super_ young (i.e. you're 12)... So I'll try to be nice.



Danielkang2 said:


> I mean don't even risk it if you don't have what it takes to take care of the biproduct of your actions.



This brings up a philosophical question that's actually pretty interesting: Is consent to an action necessarily consent to all possible consequences? Legally, sure - we often sign contracts saying we understand risks before we undergo potentially deadly actions - but morally, and in real-life application, I don't think it holds up. Say you go bungee jumping, and your line snaps; do we say 'well, you just shouldn't have done that risky thing'? Say you start getting frisky with a partner, and they push you further than you want to go; do we say 'well, you should have known that would be the outcome'?

We don't, of course! We call those 'an unfortunate tragedy' and 'sexual assault,' respectively. 



Danielkang2 said:


> No, the pregnant person does not die. The unborn child does that's what's different. If both or either would die based on decision then that changes things.



I can tell you've never seen a pregnancy go wrong. Multiple women in my family had to be placed on bed-rest for the majority of their (wanted) pregnancies, or _they would die._ My fiancee's mother nearly died in childbirth. Over 50,000 US women a year experience what's known as "severe maternal morbidity," or severe pregnancy complications, and the number is rising. It's disrespectful to women who have died during pregnancy, women who have had troubled pregnancies, and women who have had to discontinue wanted pregnancies to say 'well, pregnant people don't die, so it's okay.'



Danielkang2 said:


> Biologically speaking the man has no responsibility  I still dont think its right but yeah.



I don't know where you got that from, but nah. Evolutionarily, men do have a responsibility to ensure their children's survival - if all their children die, they won't pass on their genes, obviously. (That's a major simplification, but whatever. Altruism likely goes beyond kin selection, too.) Furthermore, a lot of things are 'natural' that we wouldn't consider moral. My thoughts on that, though, are really complicated and would take an entire thesis to describe.

Furthermore, you never really addressed my point regarding mandatory organ transplants. I'd like to see your answer to that, if you have one!

--And an aside:



Wish said:


> please don't listen to the other guy. birth control pills are horrible for you and severely mess with your hormones and body.



Eh. Of course they mess with your hormones; you're literally ingesting estrogen. This can increase your risk of cervical breast cancer, and it's really bad for people who get migraines with aura (you're at increased risk for stroke!). That said, some people have medical issues relating to hormone balance and rely on hormonal birth control to balance it; for example, I get debilitating menstrual migraines _without_ aura, which birth control helps to resolve. A lot of women take estradiol during menopause, too, or during transition for trans women. Birth control pills actually reduce your risk of ovarian cancer, too! A blanket statement that hormonal birth control is 'horrible for you' doesn't really hold up.


----------



## Cudon (Jul 6, 2016)

Wait hes 12? Are you ****ting me, I've been wasting my time.


----------



## discopolice (Jul 6, 2016)

Dinomates said:


> Wait hes 12? Are you ****ting me, I've been wasting my time.



--Just looked again, it might be 14?? The number says 12, but the date would make him 14, so idk. Either way, yeah, he appears to be _really young_, so be nice.


----------



## seliph (Jul 6, 2016)

Wait he's 12

Oh god


----------



## moonford (Jul 6, 2016)

nvll said:


> Wait he's 12
> 
> Oh god



He's 14, hasn't updated his profile in two years, he is entitled to his opinion, even if he is to young to understand the situation all that well.

Edit: Just because he is 14 doesn't mean his opinion is any better than an adult though, you're all coming of as rude too.


----------



## piichinu (Jul 6, 2016)

i dont think his age has anything to do with his opinion though, its likely that he wont change it in the future because many adults do believe the same thing


----------



## Peter (Jul 6, 2016)

Going to go ahead and close this for a while. 

Debating with others and having different opinions is absolutely fine, but when the thread ends up focusing on one user in particular it starts to feel like a personal attack.


----------

