# Gender in Video Games



## Sora (May 23, 2013)

I wanted to start this thread, because recently I started wondering about gender roles in a lot of games. I know a lot of other guys who like to play as females in games and such, while I know a good number of girls who tend to take offense at that. What are you all's opinions on this? Do you think it is weird for a guy to play as a female? Also, at the same time do you find it strange for a girl to play as a male when she has a choice?


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## Bacon Boy (May 23, 2013)

I don't think it's weird at all. I mean, there are some gender specific games (i.e. Harvest Moon: AWL and Harvest Moon: Another WL) which are tailer specifically for guys and girls. However, I don't think it's all that weird. For example, in Borderlands 2, Entei Slider played as Maya as he and I went through the Campaign again and it wasn't weird. She's a really good character top play as. I think it's only weird if you make it weird.


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## oath2order (May 23, 2013)

There's a bit of hypocrisy here. Not against you, Sora, I'm not calling you a hypocrite. You say that there are guys who like the play as girls. This is true. While I am not one of them, I do have seen a few posts on Tumblr calling men creeps for this. Yet you never see it the other way around. I used to follow the Skyrim tag on Tumblr, and in Skyrim, you can choose to be either male or female. Men who played as women were criticized, yet the women who played as men never got criticized, and actually got congratulated for creating an awesome looking character. Why is that? Why can't men play as women?

I personally think there's nothing wrong with it. Play as whoever you want.


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## Bubble Pop (May 23, 2013)

Well... Personally I don't see this as a problem myself, I love playing as females and male characters. I love to play as Peach and Samus on Smash Bros., Lara Croft is kick ass and I usually always pick the female trainer in Pok?mon just because I like their designs better! I agree with Bacon Boy it's only weird if you make it weird!


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## Dustbunnii (May 23, 2013)

I don't have much of a problem with it.
I personally prefer playing as a female character whenever possible, but I don't have much of an issue playing as a male character. I just connect with female characters more and feel more comfortable that way.

I feel like the main reason that men are criticized so much for playing as female characters is because it's assumed that they're just playing as one in order to look at her totez hawt pixelz and with no other reason beyond that... and that's probably not the case most of the time. Even when it is the case, I'm sort of 'whatever' about it. 
The frequent sexualization of female characters doesn't help this either, but I'm not going to get into that for _reasons_.

As for females playing as male characters... females don't have the same "perverted" stereotype that men do, so it doesn't get as much negative attention, I guess. Not that I've noticed. Like I said, when I have the choice I play as a female character so I don't have any experience with that sort of thing.
Also, most games feature male leads and have a male audience in mind, so female gamers won't have much of a choice in those cases. 
Not to mention the fact that many people are still surprised when a girl is just as into video games as guys are... when that's the case, they're going to get praise from the guys in the community for being into the same things that they're into.

But yeah. 
I have no problems with it and I think that people should really get past the stereotypes that exist... :I


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## Batsu (May 23, 2013)

What I think is weird is anyone who is offended by someone playing a game as a character that is opposite their gender. I'm a lady and I usually choose to play male characters in games, but I also pick female characters; what I choose mostly depends on who I think looks cooler, ha. Anyway, I certainly don't care if a guy wants to play a girl even if it's just to oggle at her butt... or vice versa, because I've known girls who do the same thing. Just play what you want.


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## Treasu(red) (May 23, 2013)

I play as a girl 100% of the time because I'm a girl irl and I enjoy being a girl but I totally understand lots of guys pick female characters because they get to watch that booty sway the whole game.


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## Kaiaa (May 23, 2013)

I don't think it's weird at all. I had a male rogue on Wow named MrPockets lol 
I usually tend to play girl characters but if I have a really good name for a guy, I'll play one.


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## Wish (May 23, 2013)

I play as male characters often. If someone gets butthurt then they seriously need to go sit in the corner and think about their life


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## SockHead (May 23, 2013)

It depends on the character models. If the dude looks generic then I'll choose the girl character. If it's a game like Saints Row then the obvious choice is a girl. Why would I want to stare at my dude character's ass all the time?


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## -Aaron (May 23, 2013)

It depends. If it's a game like Mario Kart or Smash Bros, I don't care what people think of me if I play as Peach or Zelda. 
If it's a game where you can create your own person, I'll create both because why the hell not.

Also, I don't give a damn about what people do. If they play as a guy or as a girl, it doesn't matter to me unless they start being obnoxious about it.


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## Officer Berri (May 23, 2013)

Why on earth would it be weird for a guy to play as a girl? Girls play as guys literally all the time! My boyfriend loves to play as female characters and he usually chooses to play as females in games like Dragon Age and Mass Effect.

If I can play as a girl I usually play as a girl. But that's because getting to play as a girl is less normal than having to play as a guy, usually.


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## PoizonMushro0m (May 23, 2013)

I really don't care which gender I play as, as long as the game is good. I usually play as a guy, but if I feel like making a girl character, I go ahead and make one. I really don't care about people's opinions since I'm always under fire over my choices by even my closest friends so other people's opinions really don't matter to me all that much.


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## brinstar (May 26, 2013)

I don't think it's weird to play a character of other genders in games. It's perfectly normal and a lot of people do this.

I think that, for many people, games are a way to escape from what's familiar and put yourself into an unfamiliar situation, but in the relatively 'safe' and controlled environment that is a videogame. One of the ways that people explore those unfamiliar situations is by playing a character of another gender. It can be as simple as the fact that they just want to try on a different 'skin' than what they've got in real life.

One other point I'd like to make is that a lot of videogame characters are pre-determined, like when you play Snake in a Metal Gear Solid game. Women who play that game, for example, don't have any other choice but to play a male character. 47% of people who play videogames are women, so that's a lot of gamers who are playing games where they have to be a character of different gender. So, then, it's not really that strange at all!


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## inSein (May 26, 2013)

Dustbunnii said:


> Not to mention the fact that many people are still surprised when a girl is just as into video games as guys are... when that's the case, they're going to get praise from the guys in the community for being into the same things that they're into.



Unless they're on the internet. Internet right now acts like a girl playing game is only a girl who wants attention. It's stupid.



I don't care either way. Play as whoever you want to play as. I personally only play as a girl, if possible. Either way though, it isn't that big a deal.


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## Horus (May 26, 2013)

I make it weird.



Lol, anyway, I go either like Sockhead does, some character models just look bad and I'd rather go with the other gender so the character doesn't ruin my experience of the game


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## Roknar (May 30, 2013)

I don't see any problem with it. If a man wants to play as a woman (and vice versa) it shouldn't be a big deal.


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## demoness (May 31, 2013)

I tend to play as females because I typically write female protagonists when I compose short stories, because in the grand scheme of literature, female protagonists are underrepresented, even though there are many great examples of books about strong female characters.  The same could be said about my reason for playing as women in video games.  I also respect women a lot considering I require permanent home nursing and my nurses have been predominantly women.  It is a comfort thing, I suppose.


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## Gummy (May 31, 2013)

You are not necessarily a direct representation of your character or avatar. I have no problems if you choose to pick a character of the opposite gender (I do it all the time). Choosing an option besides your own sex neither threatens your masculinity or femininity. It is just a game.


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## Mary (May 31, 2013)

I play as a guy sometimes, usually only because I have to. In Harvest Moon I usually play as both in order to experience both sides of the game. I suppose it's all up to personal preference. Me? I don't think it matters. We gamers can do what we want.


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## Furry Sparks (May 31, 2013)

I wish there would be more games that forced you to play as someone other than a white straight attractive male. It's cool that there are games that let you pick and all, but the games where there's an actual female main character she's usually eye candy.


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## oath2order (Jun 1, 2013)

Furry Sparks said:


> I wish there would be more games that forced you to play as someone other than a white straight attractive male. It's cool that there are games that let you pick and all, but the games where there's an actual female main character she's usually eye candy.



Just because they save the princess doesn't mean they're straight >.>


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## Furry Sparks (Jun 1, 2013)

oath2order said:


> Just because they save the princess doesn't mean they're straight >.>



I could list tons and tons and tons of games with straight main characters, I don't want to, but I will if you don't believe me. Now, give me an example, one single example, of a mainstream game with a gay main character (games like fable or mass effect 3 or skyrim where you choose yourself don't count).


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## oath2order (Jun 1, 2013)

Furry Sparks said:


> I could list tons and tons and tons of games with straight main characters, I don't want to, but I will if you don't believe me. Now, give me an example, one single example, of a mainstream game with a gay main character (games like fable or mass effect 3 or skyrim where you choose yourself don't count).



The sexuality of a bunch of characters is never actually confirmed. Link is never confirmed to have any signs of romance towards any character of any gender whatsoever. Is he straight? Is he gay? We don't know.

Tell me a few games then.


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## Furry Sparks (Jun 1, 2013)

oath2order said:


> The sexuality of a bunch of characters is never actually confirmed. Link is never confirmed to have any signs of romance towards any character of any gender whatsoever. Is he straight? Is he gay? We don't know.
> 
> Tell me a few games then.



Oh boy. Here we go. Games with confirmed straight (I guess they might be bi, but for the sake of this im going to assume that if they don't mention it, they're straight)

Max Payne.
Metal Gear Solid (so all of them)
Metal Gear Rising: Revengence
Persona 3
Persona 4
Alan Wake
Braid
Uncharted
Dead Space
Final Fantasy IV, VI, VII, X.
Shadow of the Colossus
Assassin's Creed II
Dear Esther
Deus Ex: Human Revolution
Super Meat Boy
God of War (all of them)
Gears of War (I think its confirmed. Not sure)
Lost Odyssey
Dante's Inferno
Dead Rising 2
Indigo Prophecy
Ratchet and Clank (I think so, I might be misremembering this one)
Lollipop Chainsaw
Duke Nukem (all of them)
Catherine
Splinter Cell
Warcraft 3 (Thrall or Arthas, pick one)
Silent Hill (most of them I'm pretty sure)
Planescape Torment
Heavy Rain
Every (as far as I know) Grand Theft Auto
Even god damn Pac-Man had a wife.

Obviously, Im forgetting a ton. I cant remember every single game and if it's confirmed or not, and there's tons of games I haven't played. This also isn't counting games based on TV shows or similar things, such as simpson games or other crap like that.

And Christ, you can't use the "we dont know" as an example of gay characters. For some characters, it doesn't matter at all. And that's fine. It doesn't have to be a big deal in every game. But in almost every other single game where the main character has a sexuality, be it a passing reference or a main plot point, they are straight. And again, on the "they might all be bi" point, so what? It wasn't mentioned, shown, or implied in these games. If it isn't mentioned in some way, it's irrelevant.


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## Caius (Jun 1, 2013)

^ to the post above me, take Metal Gear off the list of 'straight.' The boss herself was confirmed to be with Dr. Strangelove, Big Boss was confirmed to have 'relations' with Ocelot, and don't even get me started on Kaz or Solid. MGS is the most rainbowific game on the market which makes it all the more amazing to me. 

Anywho, on the topic of gender roles.. I had a class on this. I wrote a twenty-five page paper on this. I'll condense. Also I'm not censoring the 'body parts.' It's biology. 

I don't take offense to women being in lead roles. I take offense to the hypersexualized concepts that always seem to pop up. Think about this. Armor in a game for a woman has a midriff exposed 80% of the time, nipples are modeled for that extra bit of oomph on the model, and you can be sure that most of the clothing on a female character is rarely a second piece of geometry, it's just painted on as skin in a lot of games. I'm I'm going to have to play through a game like that with a female character, I would really just like to play as a whining male in a banana hammock to even the odds. 

So, on the topic of Hypersexuality, let's use Bayonetta. Actually, I don't find her extremely bad when it comes to this. The whole game is off the wall. She's got the personality to USE that kind of figure and actions, and I loved the entire time. There was no putting her in her place, she was above that entirely. On the other hand, take a look at some of the other female protagonists who whine and complain, and wear nothing, and usually end up in a game where there's a male lead to take care of them. THAT's what grinds my gears. 

I have nooo issues with a guy playing as a girl character. Online it can be rough figuring out who is who behind a computer but it's never really my business anyway. You grow used to it when you roleplay on message boards. I tend to exclusively play guys in rpgs. That's just how I am. It can be the same the other way around as long as they're not making the character the absolute epitome of everything stereotypical in a woman.


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## Private Nickel (Jun 1, 2013)

Zr388 said:


> ^ to the post above me, take Metal Gear off the list of 'straight.' The boss herself was confirmed to be with Dr. Strangelove, Big Boss was confirmed to have 'relations' with Ocelot, and don't even get me started on Kaz or Solid. MGS is the most rainbowific game on the market which makes it all the more amazing to me.



Welllllll, technically The Boss also had sexual relations with 



Spoiler



The Sorrow


 so I guess that makes her a bi. And this is the first time I've heard Ocelot having relations other than himself. Source please?


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## Caius (Jun 1, 2013)

Private Nickel said:


> Welllllll, technically The Boss also had sexual relations with
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Source is Kojima interview. CBA to dig through the internet right now. I'd say run a google search.

And yeah, spoiler too. 



Spoiler



Ocelot is still the worst kid.



And let's not forget Raikov.

Edit: I just ran a search. I remember there being a source on the TVtropes page about it, but it looks like they just about removed all sources. It is via _word of god_ though. It was supposed to be alluded to by Ocelot having his 'hero worship' all over the place for Big Boss, and by the end of the game you pretty much see them getting along. When the patriots thing started is when things kicked up. I might be wrong but I _do_ remember something from Peace Walker about it, not to mention a codec with Eva in Snake Eater all about how dumb Snake was for not realizing it.

In MGS4 forget the subcontext. It's there. It's right there. Hell, during one of the fights Ocelot kisses snake and restores your psyche meter... lol.

_Metal Gear_


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## The Whistler (Jun 1, 2013)

Treasu(red) said:


> I play as a girl 100% of the time because I'm a girl irl and I enjoy being a girl but I totally understand lots of guys pick female characters because they get to watch that booty sway the whole game.




This ^ 

On a serious note though, I don't see the big deal either way. Sometimes a female protagonist can bring a lot to a story, woman have different mannerisms than men. Most of your bro shooters now days usually have some testosterone pumped male lead that has the cliche emotionless shoot first be punished later mentality....and it's boring. 

Flip that around with a female lead and things could get interesting. Being around woman all my life has brought one of many things into perspective. While the male tackles issues head on or physically in most cases, the female tends to be more tactical, patient, and tends to destroy their victim in a psychological manner. 

Now I'm not saying this is always the case because many of us are different, but it most certainly can make a story more interesting. 

If I have the option to pick and it doesn't add to story I typically go male, but sometimes I do pick female to simply change things up....or to watch that booty sway.


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## oath2order (Jun 2, 2013)

Look, I'm gay, and would it be nice to have more representation in games? Sure, why not? But I'd rather have a gay character be in a game for the plot, and not just because "oh, there are too many straight characters, let's make him gay".

And I though we were naming straight white male lead characters. If I'm not mistaken, the lead character in Lollipop Chainsaw is Twilight Sparkle a straight while *female*


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## Furry Sparks (Jun 2, 2013)

oath2order said:


> Look, I'm gay, and would it be nice to have more representation in games? Sure, why not? But I'd rather have a gay character be in a game for the plot, and not just because "oh, there are too many straight characters, let's make him gay".
> 
> And I though we were naming straight white male lead characters. If I'm not mistaken, the lead character in Lollipop Chainsaw is Twilight Sparkle a straight while *female*



I don't want it to be part of the plot every time. It doesn't have to be. It can just be something that helps to flesh out the character, without being something that defines them. For example, 



Spoiler



Kanji


 in persona 4. It's not just about wanting to feel more accepted and a part of games, It's also that I'm bored of the generic main character we get in many many many MANY games. There should be more female characters, more characters of different races, ages, and all those other things because that's how varied humans are. 

And sorry, guess that means I only have 30 something examples off the top of my head.


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## oath2order (Jun 2, 2013)

Furry Sparks said:


> There should be more female characters, more characters of different races, ages, and all those other things because that's how varied humans are.



You're coming off as one of the social justice warriors from Tumblr. What I'm reading this as is: "Humans are varied, therefore we should make games to represent all the different types of identities just because they're varied."


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## LillyKay (Jun 2, 2013)

I am a girl and will play as a girl if I am given a choice to do so (though in the past I have played as a boy due to lack of choice). Having said this, I really do not see any problem with what others choose to play as. Those who take offence should mind their own games.


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## Furry Sparks (Jun 2, 2013)

oath2order said:


> You're coming off as one of the social justice warriors from Tumblr. What I'm reading this as is: "Humans are varied, therefore we should make games to represent all the different types of identities just because they're varied."



lol **** tumblr.

But, Is there a reason we shouldn't? Should games really just be based off the majority? I don't mean every game should be about a minority of some kind because again, that's boring. Honestly, it's like you're trying to make varied games, characters, and settings a bad thing. I'm getting so bored with a lot of games these days. I want some damn variations in the gameplay, music, art, characters, story, whatever. This is one way that can be achieved, while at the same time making gaming a more inclusive hobby.

And you hardly even reply to my posts. You pick one minor detail of it, and then ignore the rest of the post. You asked me to list games with straight characters. I did, but then oh, one was a girl. Sorry. I explain how gay, or other minority characters could be used  and examples of good ones but nope, I must be some social justice tumblr warrior. Way to go after me instead of actually discussing my points.


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## Private Nickel (Jun 2, 2013)

Furry Sparks said:


> I want some damn variations in the gameplay, music, art, characters, story, whatever.



Yeah well I want my Bear Simulator 2013 wrapped with a pink little bow tie.

But we can't always get what we want, can we?


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## Colour Bandit (Jun 2, 2013)

I have no problems with guys playing as girls and girls playing as guys, but it's when you get those RPGs in which the female characters wear skimpy armour (Or the game has a ton of mods for 'female enhancement') and then guys choose the girls only for that and *broadcast* that across the gaming community, that's when I draw a line. If they don't broadcast it and keep it to themselves then that's fine, its just that it is rather annoying when you go on a forum or Tumblr to talk about one of these games and you just get bombarded with things like "LOL, u can c her bewbs!".

You can get girls who also only choose male characters for their heavily sexualised appearances, but I think girls broadcast it less than guys so most people only see guys as 'gaming perverts'. Though when I scour mod websites for Skyrim I rarely see any skimpy male armour mods (Though I think they would be more hilarious than attractive)


Spoiler









Another thing that annoys me is when you get games that make the girl a reward that just implies that girls cannot save themselves from the antagonist and that they are not as strong as the male character, though girls being rewards is showcased all across the media and games have been getting better, the fact you can even be a female protagonist in the majority of games now is a step away from the reward females- Take Lara Croft, yes she is heavily sexualised but she is a very strong character!

Though overall I think games are not the biggest offender in the gender department (Hollywood really needs to take a check on some of the characters they have churned out), it's mainly the gamers themselves creating these problems.


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## Frosti (Jun 2, 2013)

LOL I used to wonder about the reverse gender roles.  So I asked my friends who did this.  One of my male friends said "If I'm gonna have to stare at an ass all the time, it may as well be a cute female ass".  One of my female friends who play nothing but male chars said "It was the only way I can get guys to stop trying to cyber with me all the time."  So at that point I was like "damn they both make sense".


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## oath2order (Jun 2, 2013)

Furry Sparks said:


> lol **** tumblr.
> 
> But, Is there a reason we shouldn't? Should games really just be based off the majority? I don't mean every game should be about a minority of some kind because again, that's boring. Honestly, it's like you're trying to make varied games, characters, and settings a bad thing. I'm getting so bored with a lot of games these days. I want some damn variations in the gameplay, music, art, characters, story, whatever. This is one way that can be achieved, while at the same time making gaming a more inclusive hobby.
> 
> And you hardly even reply to my posts. You pick one minor detail of it, and then ignore the rest of the post. You asked me to list games with straight characters. I did, but then oh, one was a girl. Sorry. I explain how gay, or other minority characters could be used  and examples of good ones but nope, I must be some social justice tumblr warrior. Way to go after me instead of actually discussing my points.



I'm not trying to make varied characters a bad thing. I'm trying to make varied characters that exist just because some people want variation and not for an actual good reason a bad thing.

What do mean, variations in music? Seriously, explain that one to me. And gameplay? Literally every game is different. Art? Along with gameplay, play a different game! If you want differences in art, gameplay, and story, play a different game.

I notice how you don't criticize Zr for pointing out a flaw in your list. Oh well.

Where did you point out how gay or other minority characters can be used in a good way? There was one example of how a female character could be used, and that was by the Whistler, not even you. Where are YOU saying how they can be used? I'm not seeing anything.

And yes, you do seem like a social justice warrior. The way your posts appear to me, it appears as if you just want video games to be inclusive for the sake of being inclusive. It appears that you just want minorities in the game just so we can have minorities in games. That's the kind of things social justice warriors do, and it's very apparent in you.

You say I don't respond to previous posts? Fine.

Your list of straight characters. Yes, you have listed that. And? There's a reason that they don't make games with predominantly female heroes. Allow me to cite a Penny Arcade article covering a report about a study done by the EEDAR (Electronic Entertainment Design and Research). They found that out of 669 games, 24 had female protagonists. 300 gave the choice of a female lead. They then looked at three months of sales data for the game. As the man interviewed explained, "If you look at the first three months, with the smaller quantity of female-led games, they did not sell as well. The ones that were male-only sold better," The article also says that male-only heroes sell better, but the ones where you choose gender will get reviewed now. The article, by the way, can be found here.

What can we take away from this? I think it's fairly obvious that video games companies want to sell their games, and thus will appeal to market forces. The market currently demands male-only hero games, and that's what's going to be made. My main conclusion here is that if you want more games to be made with minority heroes, then you should work to change the culture of gaming first. Change the minds of the people who buy the games. They're the ones with the money, and they're the ones who really decide what games get made.


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## Caius (Jun 2, 2013)

On the topic of gay characters, I don't mind gay characters as long as the game isn't revolving around that *one thing* if that makes any sense. It's not about the character being gay, it's about that being the huge spotlight. Same with other stuff like colored characters, female characters, all of it.


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## Furry Sparks (Jun 2, 2013)

> I'm not trying to make varied characters a bad thing. I'm trying to make varied characters that exist just because some people want variation and not for an actual good reason a bad thing.



So, variation for the sake of having unique and different experiences is a bad thing?



> What do mean, variations in music? Seriously, explain that one to me. And gameplay? Literally every game is different. Art? Along with gameplay, play a different game! If you want differences in art, gameplay, and story, play a different game.



You know how there are different kinds of music? I mean that. It was just an example. Like how a game like how a game like FTL can have an electronic soundtrack while a final fantasy game might have an orchestrated soundtrack. a A lot of games do have similar soundtracks, and a lot of different. I was just using it as an example of things I like to be varied in games. I... the second half of this doesn't even make sense. I'm talking about games in general. I like games that do things different. Games like Okami and Killer 7 for unique art style. Games like Persona 3 and 4 for a unique mix of gameplay, and unique characters. And no, not literally every game is different. There are endless amounts of generic shooters and RPGs and action games that are all very similar. I can't go play a game that's different if one doesn't exist. 



> I notice how you don't criticize Zr for pointing out a flaw in your list. Oh well.



Well I didn't actually read it because I'm currently playing the Metal Gear Solid series, and he had it spoiler tagged. I would like to avoid spoilers.



> Where did you point out how gay or other minority characters can be used in a good way? There was one example of how a female character could be used, and that was by the Whistler, not even you. Where are YOU saying how they can be used? I'm not seeing anything.



I mentioned Kanji from persona 4. Being gay (or bi, or just confused, its not very clear) is a part of his character. Yes, they address it. But, he's not just the gay character. There's so much more to him than that, that once that part of the story is resolved it isn't brought up even during his social link. It's an important part of him, but not the most important part. That's the kind of character I like. Also see Cortez in mass effect 3. As for female characters,  Samus is a good example (not counting Other M. I like to pretend that game doesn't exist). She's a female character, but it's not the most important part of her. Again, I'm not saying that EVERY game has to have a female transgender black gay jewish main character.



> And yes, you do seem like a social justice warrior. The way your posts appear to me, it appears as if you just want video games to be inclusive for the sake of being inclusive. It appears that you just want minorities in the game just so we can have minorities in games. That's the kind of things social justice warriors do, and it's very apparent in you.



Again, what is the problem with wanting more minority characters in games? There simply aren't that many. ****, this isn't something that I spend hours every day protesting about, or sending letters in to devs, or anything like that. Seriously, if you're going to keep calling me that I'm just going to stop responding. I don't want an argument, I want a discussion. Discuss my points, not me.



> Your list of straight characters. Yes, you have listed that. And? .



I literally listed the games with straight characters. You said you wanted it. The point was that you said there weren't many games with them, and I was just showing you them. That's it. 



> There's a reason that they don't make games with predominantly female heroes. Allow me to cite a Penny Arcade article covering a report about a study done by the EEDAR (Electronic Entertainment Design and Research). They found that out of 669 games, 24 had female protagonists. 300 gave the choice of a female lead. They then looked at three months of sales data for the game. As the man interviewed explained, "If you look at the first three months, with the smaller quantity of female-led games, they did not sell as well. The ones that were male-only sold better," The article also says that male-only heroes sell better, but the ones where you choose gender will get reviewed now. The article, by the way, can be found here



I'm sure that's true. And it sucks. It really shouldn't be like that. It's the same deal with endless millitary FPS games. Guess I'll have to rely on indie devs more often now.

What the **** am I doing with my life.

Edit: Yes yes yes exactly what Zr said.


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## oath2order (Jun 2, 2013)

Furry Sparks said:


> So, variation for the sake of having unique and different experiences is a bad thing?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Variation for the sake of different experiences is not a bad thing. Variation just for the sake of variation is a bad thing.  Basically, Zr's post.

How does it not make sense? You want to play something different than a shooter? Play something that isn't a shooter. How does that not make sense?

Indie devs are the way to go. I'll agree there too.



Furry Sparks said:


> What the **** am I doing with my life.


I agree. What the **** am I doing with my life. And I'm saying this applies to me, I'm not critiquing you.


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## Furry Sparks (Jun 2, 2013)

oath2order said:


> Variation for the sake of different experiences is not a bad thing. Variation just for the sake of variation is a bad thing.  Basically, Zr's post.
> 
> How does it not make sense? You want to play something different than a shooter? Play something that isn't a shooter. How does that not make sense?
> 
> ...



That's half of what I've been saying. Variation for different experiences is exactly what I want. The other half is that by doing this, games will also be more inclusive/diverse which is also a good thing. Everyone wins (other than the game companies apparently).

I mean with the different games thing, if the game doesn't really exist, I can't play it. Like I really want to play some kind of spaceship RPG or strategy game or something like that. I know about Eve, but I mean something single player. There aren't many of those games (FTL is the only recent one I can think of). If I want to play a game with a gay main character, I can't because they don't really exist.


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## PeppermintComrade (Jun 6, 2013)

I'm a guy and I've played as both. In games like Animal Crossing, I've always played as a guy. In MMOs if the game has really limited customization options and requires a 2nd char if you want to play a different class or something the first one will be a guy and the 2nd one will probably be a girl because there would probably only be like one hair/face option and all my male chars would end up looking the same and that bugs me for whatever reason. If its a game like monster hunter that i'll be putting hundreds of hours into and most likely be choosing the same armor sets every play through because of stats/skill effects, I'll pick a guy the first time, then pick a girl the 2nd time and switch weapon types so it feels more like 2 separate play throughs instead of one long game. Just depends on the person I guess, whether they treat their characters as representations of themselves, or they like the way they look, or it could be just a little dude that runs around and beats stuff up, or fishes, or plays golf, etc. Not sure if that made any sense, but that's my take on it I suppose xD.


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## Lauren (Jun 6, 2013)

In games if I have the choice I always play female but if I don't have the choice I really don't mind, I don't understand why people get uppity. I mean I know loads of guys that have played for example, portal Chell is a girl and it is important to the story that you play Chell hence why there is no other options. I don't think people realize that sometimes one character is needed for the story like The Walking Dead, you start of as Lee, when I began I was like "I'M PLAYING A CRIMINAL?" but I later realized that it told a great story ^.^ I think there should be games that have more gay characters as this shows diversity but also you can have a bit of fun with it ^.^ I have found myself getting bored of the straight relationship when I play Sims so I make same sex couples, honestly its much more fun as it is not my usual seeing as I'm straight  but that's my thoughts, feel free to disregard anything I say...


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## spookyboo (Jun 6, 2013)

As a female I always prefer playing a female character. As far as what anyone else does, my response is this: do your thing.


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## StiX (Jun 6, 2013)

I always go for male because I'm a guy. If it's possible to make more characters I sometimes make a female though and I dont mind guys playing as females haha I know lots of girls playing as guys too =p


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## Bacon Boy (Jun 7, 2013)

The thing we all seem to be forgetting is that the trope of the hero rescuing the damsel in distress is almost as old as time. It's a fairy tale ending. The bad guy kidnaps the guy, the girl waits for the hero, and the hero comes to rescue the damsel. That's the clich? in so many games. Why? Because it works. Because it sells. Let's look at the character of Princess Peach here for a second. She started out as the damsel in distress. Bowser would kidnap her and then take her away. 

*Sidenote: Lately, it's literally just to drive the game along. It has no plot point. Mario could definitely have gone through Super Mario Galaxy without having to save the Princess. His goal would have been to stop Bowser. Peach didn't have to get kidnapped. There's my rabbit trail for the day.

However, throughout the years we see her evolve slightly into more of a heroine. Sure, lately she's seen more kidnapping than winning, but let's look at a few games here. Here's a terrible example, Super Princess Peach. The tides changed and she went looking for Mario (using her bipolar mood swings and umbrella as weapons...), but still, she kicked butt all the same. More recently, look at the Paper Mario series. Peach isn't as helpless as she is in the other games. In the first one, she actually has a "boss-fight" with Kamek. She spends the whole time trying to break out and help Mario. In TTYD, she tries her best to uncover various secrets surrounding her being kidnapped. In that game, she actually has a reason for being kidnapped—to resurrect the thousand year old demon. Prophecies and whatnot. However, throughout the game, she is still doing what she can. Finally, say what you will about Super Paper Mario, but in that game, Peach took a lead role. The fact that she was a playable character, she was effective against certain bosses, etc. Another plot-driven kidnapping, but she did more to help her case than hurt it. I don't know about Sticker Star since I am extremely reluctant to play it. The thing we're starting to see is women take more of a dominant role in stories. There will always be those directors or video game creators that think of women as sexual objects (Felicia in Darkstalkers or any other scantily clad girl dressed that way for the sake of being dressed that way). There's not much justification for that.

I think one of the best examples towards women stepping up into a lead role is Yoko Littner from Gurren Lagann. She starts out a badass and ends out a badass. There is only one or two scenes that I can think of where she plays the part "damsel in distress". The rest of the time, while at first she may appear to be the sex appeal of the show, she's also one of the plot-driving, gun-toting characters and the series would not have been what it is without her. 

Let's be frank here: Sex sells. Put in a naked women here, a bikini-clad woman there, and you have a game most guys will buy just for that and the jiggle physics. Producers in both Hollywood and the video game industry know this, and will exploit it until it goes out of style... which it won't. 

On the subject of gay characters and minorities in gaming and even TV shows, I think we can all agree that having those characters in just to have them in is wrong. What I mean is to have a gay character in the game/show just to act flamboyant and overemphasize the fact that he's gay. A show that plays on this whole thing nicely is Go On. Julie White plays a lesbian coping with the loss of her wife, but it's never awkward. It's never overemphasized. It flows nicely and it fits. More shows need to be like that. Hollywood just loves to stereotype.


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## sassberg (Jun 7, 2013)

oath2order said:


> Your list of straight characters. Yes, you have listed that. And? There's a reason that they don't make games with predominantly female heroes. Allow me to cite a Penny Arcade article covering a report about a study done by the EEDAR (Electronic Entertainment Design and Research). They found that out of 669 games, 24 had female protagonists. 300 gave the choice of a female lead. They then looked at three months of sales data for the game. As the man interviewed explained, "If you look at the first three months, with the smaller quantity of female-led games, they did not sell as well. The ones that were male-only sold better," The article also says that male-only heroes sell better, but the ones where you choose gender will get reviewed now. The article, by the way, can be found here.



You're partially misrepresenting this article through omission. The article writer posits that a potential and major reason that female-led games sell less is because less money is spent on marketing. From the article: 



> “Games with a female only protagonist, got half the spending of female optional, and only 40 percent of the marketing budget of male-led games. Less than that, actually,” Zatkin said. So is this a self-fulfilling prophecy? Do publishers send female-lead games out to die without proper support? “I think it might be, and I think in some cases, though this is a guess, that these games may be considered more niche, and you advertise niche games less,” Zatkin said. It’s also hard to draw many broad conclusions from this data. There are so few games with exclusively female heroes, and those few games are given such a small marketing budget, do we even know how well a large-budget, marketed game with a female hero would perform?



I believe publishers _think_ games with female protagonists can't sell well, but, as the article says, the current data isn't sufficient to reach a real conclusion here. Did Portal sell less well because both the main character and the main antagonist are women? Good games sell. 

I think that the point Furry Sparks is making (and please correct me if I'm wrong, Furry Sparks) is that "variation" makes for more interesting gaming experiences. You can debate this, but it's a pretty subjective point. I know _for me_ having a more diverse set of characters makes for a much more fulfilling experience. It's much more fun to take the lives of people of different ages, genders, skin colors, sexual orientations, etc. -- because those differences have effects on all of us, even if those effects are subtle -- and see what you can do with that in a game. It also reflects the actual entertainment audience better. The largest demographic may be straight white males ages 18-24, but they're certainly not the only demographic.

It's also important to not take white men as the default. They have a race and gender just like everyone else. I'm trying to think of a simple way to explain this, because I was a gender studies minor in college and that comes with a lot of academic jargon. Basically, think of a cutout or silhouette of a person, like the type you might see as the old default profile picture on facebook. Most people would assume that's a man, and most people would probably also assume that's a white man. That's partially because we see so many white men in our entertainment, so our brain is sort of "trained" to see white men as normal. Anything else, like the addition of a dress, is something that marks or changes the default. Because of the dress, we then see a woman. But we had to _change_ the default to get there. The basic idea is that we shouldn't think of white men as the default (look at the world population -- they're not!) but as simply another option for characters. 

I am not -- and I don't think anyone else is either -- calling for the end of white male protagonists or anything. But I would definitely like to see more variety, and I can't see any real _problem_ with that. What do we stand to lose from a game with a black protagonist, a gay protagonist, etc.? I'm really curious about any answers to this. I don't feel like potential loss of profits is a secure argument, because not many people have really tried. Heck, _The Walking Dead_ made an astounding amount of money for being such a niche genre, and the cast of that game is super diverse. I barely ever hear a gamer or a game critic say they didn't like that game.

A final bit that's more on topic: Play as any gender you want! If there's anything I've learned in life, it's that there will always be someone around to question your choices. There's nothing wrong with making your avatar however you like, so go for it.


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## oath2order (Jun 7, 2013)

I guess this applies for gender.


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## Kyle (Jun 7, 2013)

I always play as a male, just so I can get behind who I'm playing as in a "what if I were in the game?" sense.


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## DJStarstryker (Jun 8, 2013)

Honestly, I really don't care if I'm playing as a male or a female or a robot or a monkey or a dog or an alien or anything else. As long as the game is fun, that's all that matters to me. I don't need a human or matching gender to be able to identify with a character.

When a game has a character you can create, I choose a male about 50% of the time and a female about 50% of the time. Just depends on what I'm in the mood to play.



Frosti said:


> LOL I used to wonder about the reverse gender roles.  So I asked my friends who did this.  One of my male friends said "If I'm gonna have to stare at an ass all the time, it may as well be a cute female ass".  One of my female friends who play nothing but male chars said "It was the only way I can get guys to stop trying to cyber with me all the time."  So at that point I was like "damn they both make sense".



My husband is kinda like that. When he can choose a character, he always picks girls. But, to be honest, it's not partly because she's cute. He really likes characters that tend to be quick and light on their feet. Most fighting games, an example, tend to have girls as some of the fastest characters. So, in some cases, even if he wanted to be a guy he can't always be due to the stereotypes that are present in video games and his preferred play style.


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## ben_nyc (Jun 8, 2013)

If you're drawn to women then some guys would want to see a female avatar during the 8-10 (or more, READ: Fallout 3) hour game.  That's what I've come to learn from MMO players particularly.  Perfectly natural.  It's also no secret that females will choose a male avatar to avoid harassment & or odd social interactions.  Again, there are more males gaming & guys can be jerks if a female is knowingly present in the gaming space.  

I like to role play, so it's always selecting the guy in the game.  But, sometimes I''m really curious of the story differences of titles like the Mass Effect or the Dragon Age series in which I might do a speed run as the female counterpart.


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## Lauren (Jun 8, 2013)

ben_nyc said:


> If you're drawn to women then some guys would want to see a female avatar during the 8-10 (or more, READ: Fallout 3) hour game.  That's what I've come to learn from MMO players particularly.  Perfectly natural.  It's also no secret that females will choose a male avatar to avoid harassment & or odd social interactions.  Again, there are more males gaming & guys can be jerks if a female is knowingly present in the gaming space.
> 
> I like to role play, so it's always selecting the guy in the game.  But, sometimes I''m really curious of the story differences of titles like the Mass Effect or the Dragon Age series in which I might do a speed run as the female counterpart.



I have to back your statement here! When I played runescape I wished I'd picked male and a less female name than "fluffylauren" I was ridiculed from other members and had a few creeps following me around asking me to be their "online wife" haha freaks!


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## ben_nyc (Jun 10, 2013)

Lauren said:


> I have to back your statement here! When I played runescape I wished I'd picked male and a less female name than "fluffylauren..."



I have seen courage- but never at this level!!!    Glad all's well now!  *sips tea*


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## Isabella (Jun 12, 2013)

Everyone should be able to pick whatever character they want without being made fun of. It's just a game anyway. I agree with Ben, I find it so annoying when just because there's a girl in a game and mainly guys they always have to make a smartass comment or something and try to look all cool or whatever. Personally, I don't treat people any differently if they're male or female so I just don't get why people have to act a certain way if the opposite gender is in a game..


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## radiantrepose (Jun 24, 2013)

Video games are about creating an experience most enjoyable to the user playing the game. Therefore, it doesn't matter if the user wants to be a 20-foot-tall female cat when the real life person is a five-year-old male. The point of video games is to take you into a world you could not previously visit. Gender roles and gender norms should not apply in these circumstances, especially when roleplaying.


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## Meltd0wn (Jun 24, 2013)

I play both genders in games when given an option, (I even alternate genders I play in table top RPGs because of the different experiences and often the varied abilities and options.  and Contrary to what some may believe not all of us are into animated sex objects, just like I'm sure not all females drool over 'hot' looking animated guys. It's all about the diversity of the gaming experience.  Playing the same tired thing over and over is too boring for some of us.


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## Garrett x50 cal (Jun 24, 2013)

It always bothered me when a guy played as a girl in dark souls, no particular reasoning.


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## Aloha (Jun 24, 2013)

When I play a game most guys play it,I pick the usual girl character/avi.But then all the guys are asking me "Are you a guy?" to me.And I'm like ಠ_ಠ can you guys get more stupid,believe me when I say I'm a girl,there are other girls who play this game too...


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## Oriana (Jun 25, 2013)

I like to do multiple play-throughs of games, so I eventually end up playing as both genders (and countless species, in the case of games where you are given a choice). Take Skyrim for example. On my first play-through, I made a female Nord because I feel that I can connect with the game on a more personal level when I play as my sex. Granted, it's difficult to connect to a game that allows you to go around killing dragons, but people tend to naturally lean towards a gaming experience that is familiar, especially when starting a new game. On my second play-through, however, I made a male Khajit. The game was still spectacular, but I liked seeing the small differences that come from gender and racial differences.


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## JonnyJinx (Jun 25, 2013)

I usually play as a dude, but I do pick the girl sometimes to mix it up. Just kinda fun to do I guess.  For example, I picked the male character in Pokemon BW1, so I picked the girl in BW2.


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## Elijo (Jun 26, 2013)

Usually I choose the girl characters because I'm a girl and that's what I feel comfortable with. But when it's a game like Mario Kart or SSBB I don't care what character I choose because hey, that's how I roll. When I play with random people who are in opposite gender  characters I don't really care because I'm like "It's only about the game, not the characters that people choose.".


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## Novaus (Jun 26, 2013)

I just pick whatever I feel comfortable with. i.e. I've found that the most enjoyment I get from playing LoL is when I'm a female champion.


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## WToa (Jun 26, 2013)

I usually tend to pick whatever I favor most during the day. I believe it should be up to the player's preference as to what gender they pick in a video game.


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## Amykins (Jul 12, 2013)

I've been playing games since I was 4 years old. ^^ In truth, the only real issue I see as far as gender in gaming is the obvious issue of misogyny amongst geeks and gamers. It really is a big problem, and it's kind of cemented by the fact that in a LOT of games that feature a female protagonist, there's almost always a rape or some other forced sexualization of the character. And when she's not, then she's little more than just a romantic foil (examples: Metroid Other M, Starcraft 2, Halo, Tombraider reboot). 

That's why my favorite game of all time is Okami, and my second favorite is Mass Effect. Both had strong, fun, interesting female protagonists that were strong from their own merit. I'd really like to see more of those characters in games.


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## RedNoverian (Jul 16, 2013)

I usually play female characters. This is why I like Survival Horror because many protagonists in that genre are female.

I don't do it for sex appeal because I'm mostly attracted to guys. I just think it's fun to be a female character, I guess. I should mention in AC I'm usually male and in a few other games as well. 

^ I did choose femShep, though, in ME1. She's an awesome protagonist (as well as Liara). I haven't been able to get into ME2, however.


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