# Trump reverses Obama's guidance on bathrooms



## Alolan_Apples (Feb 23, 2017)

Yes, I know it is another of these political threads, but this one is quite interesting. The bathroom debate is already back in the spotlight after Trump has reversed Obama's executive action requiring all schools to allow transgender students to use bathrooms of their gender identity. Not only that, but the Supreme Court is gonna hear arguments on this whole issue.

His reasoning is that this issue should be left up to the states and not the federal government. I only half-agree to this. While I do have to admit that Obama has overstepped his bounds when trying to do this, this is not a decision that should be dealt with by the states. Ever since North Carolina passed a law requiring transgenders using public restrooms that correspond with their sex, it faced a similar fallout that Target went through after the hacking in 2013. They lost a lot of money and jobs because of the boycotts. Even some bands, companies, and sports teams have completely mothballed the state. So I don't think it should be up to the law that decides what bathrooms or public facilities transgender people should use, city, state, or federal. However, I do think that transgenders shouldn't be discriminated from basic rights, including the right to use public restrooms in general. The choice issue is the only reason why this became controversial. I'm not for forcing trans people to use bathrooms of their biological sex. I'm just against having this issue involved in law and politics. But I do think gendered public facilities should be upheld and mandated federally, mainly to separate cis-males and cis-females for privacy reasons.

So when it comes to the bathroom debate, I do think it should be dealt with at the federal level when it comes to cis-gendered people. But for transgender people, that should be left up to the commercial services and not politics. If it's a chain of institutions or businesses, the superintendents and chief executive officers should decide on this, or take the middle ground (where they don't even care which bathrooms trans people should use). I don't want to see another state or a city to face boycotts for taking sides on the debate.

What are your opinions on this? Do you think this was another dumb move of Trump's when he was in office, or do you think he's right?


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## Red Cat (Feb 23, 2017)

Not getting into the human-rights component of this, it's ironic that this executive order actually limits individual freedom. Obama's order basically said that people should be able to pick which restroom they feel most comfortable using while Trump's reversal of the order gives government the ability to tell people which restroom they have to use.


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## Alolan_Apples (Feb 23, 2017)

Red Cat said:


> Not getting into the human-rights component of this, it's ironic that this executive order actually limits individual freedom. Obama's order basically said that people should be able to pick which restroom they feel most comfortable using while Trump's reversal of the order gives government the ability to tell people which restroom they have to use.



Do you know what's even more ironic? Trump actually believes that schools should allow transgender students to use bathrooms of their gender identity. But the fact that he rather let the states decide would contradict this. Especially since Republicans dominate 25 state governments in all chambers.


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## Bowie (Feb 23, 2017)

I believe that everybody should go in the bathrooms that their _physical_ body needs. You wouldn't use a urinal if you had a vagina, you know what I mean?

But I've always said that unisex bathrooms need to be a thing as soon as humanly possibly. The whole "they're going to allow old perverts in dresses in with our children" debate is garbage because this does not legalise rape or molestation. When I go in a public bathroom, the last thing I wanna do is hang around.

Have any of you ever been in one? They're really disgusting, and you should never sit on one of the toilets (I've had practice from an early age of bending over to do my business). You should go there to do your business and that is it. I don't care who is in there with me, frankly. I just want to get out.

Nobody would wanna be in any, if given the choice. Give everyone unisex bathrooms and then everyone gets to be happy.


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## Soigne (Feb 23, 2017)

the more this so-called president does the more i want to die


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## forestyne (Feb 23, 2017)

But Jim Crow laws stayed in for ages because nobody put pressure on the states, eventually they had to do a federal court ruling because - shocker - NOBODY WAS REVERSING THEIR SEGREGATION LAWS. 

If he allows states to decide, it'll just be another "okay, we're doing it........" but never really do it.

- - - Post Merge - - -

Starbucks has unisex bathrooms can we all just follow Starbucks' lead thank you

#starbucksladyforpresident

- - - Post Merge - - -

Trump’s odds of leaving office before his first term are 10/11 hALLELUH LADIES


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## moonford (Feb 23, 2017)

I think its another dumb move on his part, he's going to start another uproar.

Transsexuals have the genitalia that they desire, so naturally they should be in the restroom that is for their genitalia and their biologically men and women as well as mentally so it really shouldn't be a problem. =/ 

Crimes committed by people who claim their transsexual are very low and shouldn't affect the opinion of transsexual people because their people just like us but unfortunately it still does , here: X 

I'm not denying that people have dressed up as the opposite sex to assault people before because it has happened a few times but I don't like the people who claim their trans when they aren't because it affects the innocent trans people immensely which is just unfair and the amount of narrow minded people who believe all trans people are sexual predators is astonishing, its just not helping at all.

Unisex restrooms are ideal but the amount of criticism they receive makes them unlikely, I guess people would feel uncomfortable with the opposite sex looking at them or something...I wouldn't know because I don't use public restrooms. 

Like I always say, let LGBT+ people be ourselves without judgement, let us do what we want because we aren't hurting anyone and I mean anyone so please leave us alone, thank you.


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## N e s s (Feb 23, 2017)

This man is pissing me off more and more everyday.


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## nintendofan85 (Feb 23, 2017)

Is this man getting re-elected in 2020?


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## Alolan_Apples (Feb 23, 2017)

nintendofan85 said:


> Is this man getting re-elected in 2020?



I'm not sure if this will happen, but I already know he's reversing some of the work Obama has done. He's done this, withdrawn the US from the TPP, and is even repealing Obamacare. He's probably gonna reverse some of the work done by the federal government between the Nixon and Clinton administrations as well.


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## nintendofan85 (Feb 23, 2017)

Apple2012 said:


> I'm not sure if this will happen, but I already know he's reversing some of the work Obama has done. He's done this, withdrawn the US from the TPP, and is even repealing Obamacare. He's probably gonna reverse some of the work done by the federal government between the Nixon and Clinton administrations as well.



Such as what? I know he's heavily against NAFTA, which was negotiated during the administration of George H. W. Bush and then went into effect during the Clinton administration, but what else could he possible reverse, or at least want to?


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## Alolan_Apples (Feb 23, 2017)

nintendofan85 said:


> Such as what? I know he's heavily against NAFTA, which was negotiated during the administration of George H. W. Bush and then went into effect during the Clinton administration, but what else could he possible reverse, or at least want to?



Roe v. Wade.

He wants to appoint justices that would overturn this decision.


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## forestyne (Feb 23, 2017)

Apple2012 said:


> I'm not sure if this will happen, but I already know he's reversing some of the work Obama has done. He's done this, withdrawn the US from the TPP, and is even repealing Obamacare. He's probably gonna reverse some of the work done by the federal government between the Nixon and Clinton administrations as well.



He hasn't announced or shown interest in running for 2020, at least not what I've seen. My fear is that he will make same-sex marriage illegal again and we'll be back to square one. He could do all of that and even re-introduce slavery (because he's old enough to remember it) and _nobody would stop him._


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## nintendofan85 (Feb 23, 2017)

Apple2012 said:


> Roe v. Wade.
> 
> He wants to appoint justices that would overturn this decision.



Oh right, that... I should've remembered that, he always campaigned on that.

- - - Post Merge - - -



forestyne said:


> He hasn't announced or shown interest in running for 2020, at least not what I've seen. My fear is that he will make same-sex marriage illegal again and we'll be back to square one. He could do all of that and even re-introduce slavery (because he's old enough to remember it) and _nobody would stop him._



What was the purpose of his rally in Florida on Saturday, then? He even already created a re-election committee.


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## dino (Feb 23, 2017)

it's a horrific, inhumane, illegal decision and it's going to lead to more violence and discrimination against the trans community and more suicides and self hate among trans people. cried about it already today etc. 

for the record, btw! the way to talk about people who are transgender is to say transgender people, not "transgenders." transgender is not a noun, so it's not appropriate to use it as one, bc being transgender is not the entire embodiment of someone's personhood! it's the same as if you said "the olds are waving their hands in seniors pilates," rather than "the old people are waving their hands in seniors pilates." that's bc old is an adjective to describe a _person_ ~

and generally, the term is not "transsexuals" unless an individual specifically has said they refer to themself as a transsexual. it's an old, loaded term.


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## Red Cat (Feb 23, 2017)

nintendofan85 said:


> What was the purpose of his rally in Florida on Saturday, then? He even already created a re-election committee.



Presidents usually don't announce their intentions for re-election until about 2 years in, because it looks like they aren't focused on the job if they're already planning their re-election when they're barely into their first term. Trump running for re-election isn't a sure thing since he is 70 years old already and he might be so fatigued from his first term given how much opposition he faces that he won't even want another term. Trump is basically acting like a guy who wants to light the house on fire before he leaves it.


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## Envy (Feb 23, 2017)

Funny how State's Rights only ever seems to come up in matters of civil rights. *shakes head*


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## Alolan_Apples (Feb 23, 2017)

I'm actually the only one on this thread so far that opposes making all bathrooms unisex. Maybe it would lead to more sex crimes (including non-violent ones like voyeurism). Maybe the opposite is true. But even if sex crimes isn't the issue, I still don't think it's right for a boy to be in the girls' restroom or vice versa. Same with a man in the woman's restroom. Opponents of the gendered bathrooms would throw in "discrimination" into the argument and would compare this to the separation of races in public restrooms, but I am 100% skeptical of claims that gendered bathrooms were meant to oppress women. I'm also skeptical of the claims that "privacy and security in bathrooms is a lie". You can believe what you want to believe, but this is what I believe. For now, I think gendered bathrooms (which has been a social norm for a while) should stay until it really becomes a liability or until all businesses can spin off public bathrooms creatively, like this:



Spoiler












If all public restrooms look like this, then there would be no reason to have gender restrictions in public restrooms. It would cost a lot of money, but it would finally end this ridiculous debate.


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## Soda Fox (Feb 23, 2017)

I don't have strong feelings about this. I think people should be able to use whatever bathroom they want but I see the reasoning behind having people use the bathroom that matches what's in their pants. And while gender neutral bathrooms are preferable I think that will take a ton* of money to implement everywhere.

And if we're arguing that trans can use whatever bathroom because people don't regularly get attacked in bathrooms,  why can't we all just use the one that matches what's in our pants?

I just think there are bigger issues to focus on than bathrooms.


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## Alolan_Apples (Feb 23, 2017)

Soda Fox said:


> I just think there are bigger issues to focus on than bathrooms.



I agree with that. Especially foreign issues. Stuff like choice issues aren't as important as emergency issues and safety issues.


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## Envy (Feb 23, 2017)

Apple2012 said:


> I'm actually the only one on this thread so far that opposes making all bathrooms unisex. Maybe it would lead to more sex crimes (including non-violent ones like voyeurism). Maybe the opposite is true. But even if sex crimes isn't the issue, I still don't think it's right for a boy to be in the girls' restroom or vice versa. Same with a man in the woman's restroom. Opponents of the gendered bathrooms would throw in "discrimination" into the argument and would compare this to the separation of races in public restrooms, but I am 100% skeptical of claims that gendered bathrooms were meant to oppress women. I'm also skeptical of the claims that "privacy and security in bathrooms is a lie". You can believe what you want to believe, but this is what I believe. For now, I think gendered bathrooms (which has been a social norm for a while) should stay until it really becomes a liability or until all businesses can spin off public bathrooms creatively, like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree, restrooms as they are right now should never be unisex. But I also don't approve of them as they are to begin with. They simply do not offer enough privacy. Public restrooms with the amount of privacy you've shown there are common sense, and I don't really know why they weren't a thing from the beginning.

The format public restrooms are in right now NEEDS to change. I'm not even talking about privacy here. I'm talking about the number of situations where an individual or individuals need a bathroom that is not sexed. Parents with children. A single parent with a child of the opposite sex. A caretaker of someone who is dependent who are of opposite sexes. Then we add on transgender people, who most certainly deserve to be treated with respect and have an option for bathroom usage.

They either need to do what the idea you posted shows, or they need to add single unisex restrooms everywhere. As it is right now, new businesses/buildings aren't even required to build these. It's absurd. The format of bathrooms right now does not work for so many different people. Sadly enough for the people the format does work for, they don't seem to care about less privileged individuals. No shocker there, I supposed.


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## nintendofan85 (Feb 23, 2017)

Red Cat said:


> Presidents usually don't announce their intentions for re-election until about 2 years in, because it looks like they aren't focused on the job if they're already planning their re-election when they're barely into their first term. Trump running for re-election isn't a sure thing since he is 70 years old already and he might be so fatigued from his first term given how much opposition he faces that he won't even want another term. Trump is basically acting like a guy who wants to light the house on fire before he leaves it.



Be honest with me though, does he really seem focused on his current job?


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## dino (Feb 23, 2017)

Apple2012 said:


> I am 100% skeptical of claims that gendered bathrooms were meant to oppress women.



http://time.com/3653871/womens-bathroom-lines-sexist-potty-parity/ here's some stats on why these "claims" are actual substantiated experiences and proven statistics/instances!  it's actually a p compelling history and a has a lot of good points about how ideas of gender aren't removed from things in history. everything_is_connected.com



Apple2012 said:


> For now, I think gendered bathrooms (which has been a social norm for a while) should stay until it really becomes a liability or until all businesses can spin off public bathrooms creatively



above link also has some good info on why the standard gendering of bathrooms has never been cool as a norm. 

i mean i guess it depends on what you consider a liability. is a denial of basic human right and the systemic discrimination and marginalization of transgender people a liability to our communities and society? iunno. i guess to me, people matter more than a few dimes off the billions an international corporation makes a month. 



Soda Fox said:


> And if we're arguing that trans can use whatever bathroom because people don't regularly get attacked in bathrooms,  why can't they just use the one that matches what's in their pants?



putting aside the fact that trans _people _get attacked anywhere, any time, i mean, do you look in literally every single person you meet's pants? how do you...know?? they could have a tamagachi up in there. don't see how it impacts your own pee lol


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## seliph (Feb 23, 2017)

Soda Fox said:


> And if we're arguing that trans can use whatever bathroom because people don't regularly get attacked in bathrooms,  why can't we all just use the one that matches what's in our pants?



Putting the use of "trans" as a noun aside, do you go "Hm I'm going to go to the stick-figure-in-a-dress washroom because I have a vagina" or do you go "I'm going to go in here because I'm a woman"? Probably the latter. Expecting different of trans people is pretty ass holey if you ask me. Just let people piss peacefully why is this even controversial


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## Hopeless Opus (Feb 23, 2017)

i've heard the 'pervs in dresses' argument at my school many a time when it was being debated, and i thought it was pretty ridiculous. anyone, regardless if they are trans or not, can walk into a bathroom and assault/sexually assault others. i never understood why people instantly went with 'oh, a grown man in a dress walks in the bathroom to use the restroom so now it's a problem and he'll probably sexually assault our children!1111' it's so stupid. i personally really could not care less what people do in the bathroom, i'm just there to go and get out as fast as possible because i hate being there period. and like a previous poster stated, bathrooms need a LOT of work in general. also, people use that perv argument but they're the ones letting their kids go to the bathroom alone. i don't think i've ever gone to a public bathroom alone in my whole life lmao i always have my mom or a friend with me.. if you let your young child go into the bathroom alone that's pretty bad to start with.

the point is that, regardless if trans or anything, people will still go in whatever bathroom they want and they will do whatever they want (i.e an (actual) grown man walks into the bathroom and kidnaps a young girl, etc). it doesn't matter if they are trans. it's like trans people are instantly bad people for wanting to do their business lol what the ****


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## Corrie (Feb 23, 2017)

To be honest, if a cis female dressed up like a man and went into the man's bathroom, do you think anyone could tell? Does anyone even care? I've seen people who by visually looking at their appearance, I could not tell what gender they were. Would I call them out on it? This whole debate.. It's so stupid. 

I'm all for regular washrooms. I think having gender specific washrooms are stupid to begin with cause what's the point of separating genders just so they can pee? We all pee. Who cares? Plus, anyone can go into the opposite sex's bathroom at anytime or dress up to fake it if they were interested in raping someone. Families usually have more than one sex in it and they all share bathrooms. I just don't understand the problem tbh and why having each sex separate to be a top priority. Why can't they focus on important stuff like how we're killing our planet? Oh, I know why, cause it costs them money to fix but caging us even further with their stupid rules doesn't hurt them but in fact empowers them. God I hate governments and trump.


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## Soda Fox (Feb 23, 2017)

gyro said:


> Putting the use of "trans" as a noun aside, do you go "Hm I'm going to go to the stick-figure-in-a-dress washroom because I have a vagina" or do you go "I'm going to go in here because I'm a woman"? Probably the latter. Expecting different of trans people is pretty ass holey if you ask me. Just let people piss peacefully why is this even controversial



This is exactly my point, and I said in the beginning that I don't care who uses what bathroom.  I just don't understand so much uproar over something that shouldn't be a problem in the first place when there is so much else that's wrong in this world.


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## dino (Feb 23, 2017)

gyro said:


> Putting the use of "trans" as a noun aside



ain't it strange how folks will do so much to avoid saying 'transgender _PEOPLE_'

el oh el


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## Red Cat (Feb 23, 2017)

nintendofan85 said:


> Be honest with me though, does he really seem focused on his current job?



Yes. Because he sees his job as being a businessman and POTUS is just a side-gig that he does when he's not lining his pockets with taxpayer money at Mar-a-lago.


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## Alolan_Apples (Feb 23, 2017)

When I hear the conservative claims on "pervs in dresses", I actually didn't think perverts that would abuse the system would cross-dress. I also didn't think transgender people could be perverted. I was actually more worried about the cisgendered heterosexuals that would commit the sex crimes. They could do this without cross-dressing.


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## Soda Fox (Feb 23, 2017)

Apple2012 said:


> When I hear the conservative claims on "pervs in dresses", I actually didn't think perverts that would abuse the system would cross-dress. I also didn't think transgender people could be perverted. I was actually more worried about the cisgendered heterosexuals that would commit the sex crimes. They could do this without cross-dressing.



And this is why I understand the argument from both sides.  So I wish we could all just chill out about the bathroom thing and focus on bigger issues.


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## dino (Feb 23, 2017)

Apple2012 said:


> I was actually more worried about the cisgendered heterosexuals that would commit the sex crimes. They could do this without cross-dressing.



does """cross-dressing""" take a lot of effort? like, that argument just seems to hinge on the idea that it's a LOT OF WORK, WORK, WORK for people to wear a dress or wear pants or whatever else clothing item is supposed to have a gender. but you can literally just go to wally world...and buy these clothing items.... 

it takes nothing to "cross-dress," so having all gender restrooms neither encourages nor impacts the use of this in restrooms. 

i think we shouldn't excuse the fact that people who are child p*dophiles, people who commit s*xual as*ault, etc. will always, always find a way to commit horrible atrocities. and the only true way to stop them is by addressing them specifically, shutting them down, not curtailing to the idea of the possibility of them. and these acts are already being committed anywhere, at any time, not just in all gender restrooms. i know, because we don't have all gender restrooms, and they are still happening, in increasing amounts. 

anyway, why punish trans people then, for the actions that cisgender people might take?


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## LambdaDelta (Feb 23, 2017)

Apple2012 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...



this was basically what I meant by ditching gendered bathrooms

maybe not as technologically fancy, but the core idea is all here pretty much


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## N e s s (Feb 23, 2017)

Soda Fox said:


> I don't have strong feelings about this. I think people should be able to use whatever bathroom they want but I see the reasoning behind having people use the bathroom that matches what's in their pants. And while gender neutral bathrooms are preferable I think that will take a ton* of money to implement everywhere.
> 
> And if we're arguing that trans can use whatever bathroom because people don't regularly get attacked in bathrooms,  why can't we all just use the one that matches what's in our pants?
> 
> I just think there are bigger issues to focus on than bathrooms.



Which is why I'm so pissed about all this. Trump is focusing on something so little compared to other issues we have (AKA ISIS, OR FLINTS WATER PROBLEM, OR HEALTH CARE.) that solves absolutly nothing! It just creates negativity!


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## f11 (Feb 24, 2017)

idk just piss and go don't be a jerk about it, use whatever bathroom you want


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## Alolan_Apples (Feb 24, 2017)

Envy said:


> I agree, restrooms as they are right now should never be unisex. But I also don't approve of them as they are to begin with. They simply do not offer enough privacy. Public restrooms with the amount of privacy you've shown there are common sense, and I don't really know why they weren't a thing from the beginning.
> 
> The format public restrooms are in right now NEEDS to change. I'm not even talking about privacy here. I'm talking about the number of situations where an individual or individuals need a bathroom that is not sexed. Parents with children. A single parent with a child of the opposite sex. A caretaker of someone who is dependent who are of opposite sexes. Then we add on transgender people, who most certainly deserve to be treated with respect and have an option for bathroom usage.
> 
> They either need to do what the idea you posted shows, or they need to add single unisex restrooms everywhere. As it is right now, new businesses/buildings aren't even required to build these. It's absurd. The format of bathrooms right now does not work for so many different people. Sadly enough for the people the format does work for, they don't seem to care about less privileged individuals. No shocker there, I supposed.





LambdaDelta said:


> this was basically what I meant by ditching gendered bathrooms
> 
> maybe not as technologically fancy, but the core idea is all here pretty much



I think both of you best explained why I am against removing gendered bathrooms completely. It's because of how they were structured today. Even just sheets of wood that separates the toilets with stall doors like we have today aren't very effective. It may cost a lot of money, and it may result in fewer toilets, but by separating toilets into different rooms connected to the same bathroom, here are some of the problems it can solve:


It would no longer matter what bathroom to use if you're transgender. Even cisgenders can use any bathroom.
Peeping Toms and pedophiles will have a much harder time spying on bathroom users for sexual pleasure. It might be impossible to do so in public restrooms anymore.
It would increase privacy and security for all.
It will reduce waiting times in bathrooms for those who need to use the restroom. If one is full, they can go to the next one.
North Carolina's bathroom bill and several other policies like that will be obsolete.
And more that I can't explain.
We could also do this for locker rooms and showers as well.



N e s s said:


> Which is why I'm so pissed about all this. Trump is focusing on something so little compared to other issues we have (AKA ISIS, OR FLINTS WATER PROBLEM, OR HEALTH CARE.) that solves absolutly nothing! It just creates negativity!



He has been focusing on larger scale issues before, but the way he's doing it is like putting out a fire with gasoline instead of water or adding spiders to a room filled with ants instead of fumigating. He's threatening to defund an entire state for protecting some undocumented immigrants and put a ban on refugees from seven different countries. But you're right. He's caring too much over little issues like this.


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## visibleghost (Feb 24, 2017)

trans people can be in danger  when they go into public bathrooms. we dont need laws that make itworse for trans people who just wanna do their thing and leave


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## xSuperMario64x (Feb 24, 2017)

Who actually cares. Like I'm not transgender but if the women's restroom is full then by god I'll use the mens and no one gives a crap. If I saw a boy walk into the girls restroom i'd be confused but I wouldn't care much about it.

Like seriously it's just a bathroom.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Apple2012 said:


> But you're right. He's caring too much over little issues like this.



Like he makes constant facebook posts about "fake news" and I'm like wow Trump I see where your priorities are.


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## ams (Feb 24, 2017)

I actually agree with you Apple2012, I wouldn't want there to be only unisex washrooms. I personally wouldn't feel safe using a washroom that men could just walk into and I think that's a safety issue that both cis and trans women experience. So I think it's important that both groups of women can use women's washrooms without making it a political issue.


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## Haskell (Feb 24, 2017)

I'm neutral about it. I can understand both sides of the argument. 

I think that positive change can happen in communities. As is shown all the time.


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## easpa (Feb 25, 2017)

Was anyone ever really concerned over being assaulted by a trans person in a public restroom before the whole bathroom debate became a mainstream thing? I'm no expert by any means, but I wouldn't imagine there have been many cases of trans people assaulting others in bathrooms before or after the debate started. I've definitely heard stories about cis people threatening trans individuals for using the bathroom that they feel more comfortable in though. There's just a lot of scaremongering going on imo, and I don't feel as though those fears are justified


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## moonford (Feb 25, 2017)

Pachireecko said:


> Was anyone ever really concerned over being assaulted by a trans person in a public restroom before the whole bathroom debate became a mainstream thing? I'm no expert by any means, but I wouldn't imagine there have been many cases of trans people assaulting others in bathrooms before or after the debate started. I've definitely heard stories about cis people threatening trans individuals for using the bathroom that they feel more comfortable in though. There's just a lot of scaremongering going on imo, and I don't feel as though those fears are justified



Exactly.

Cis person attacks trans person, no one cares.

Trans person attacks cis person, "omg, trans people are all Hitler, all of them." 

Its a double standard.


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## easpa (Feb 25, 2017)

Whiteflamingo said:


> Exactly.
> 
> * cis person attacks trans person, no one cares*
> 
> ...



It does seem that way unfortunately! Trans people have been assaulted simply for being trans in public for the longest time, and the rhetoric used by those against the freedom of trans people to use the bathroom of their choice seems to have led to even more violence against them. It's heartbreaking to see really


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## moonford (Feb 25, 2017)

Pachireecko said:


> It does seem that way unfortunately! Trans people have been assaulted simply for being trans in public for the longest time, and the rhetoric used by those against the freedom of trans people to use the bathroom of their choice seems to have led to even more violence against them. It's heartbreaking to see really



I was watching this video of a woman (who was trans) and there was a car which drove by, the man in the car pulled over and asked for directions. He pulled out a knife and stabbed her in the throat, he drove off and she bled to death. That man hasn't been caught and this was years ago.


If a person can do this on a street with cameras everywhere then what could they do to a trans person in a restroom? I'm pretty sure there are no cameras in restrooms (if there is, ew) because it's inappropriate so they would have to rely on the cameras outside the restroom but even then the person can cover their identity. 

I guarantee you that people would be all over the case if it was a cis person.


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## Alolan_Apples (Feb 25, 2017)

Whiteflamingo said:


> I was watching this video of a woman (who was trans) and there was a car which drove by, the man in the car pulled over and asked for directions. He pulled out a knife and stabbed her in the throat, he drove off and she bled to death. That man hasn't been caught and this was years ago.
> 
> 
> If a person can do this on a street with cameras everywhere then what could they do to a trans person in a restroom? I'm pretty sure there are no cameras in restrooms (if there is, ew) because it's inappropriate so they would have to rely on the cameras outside the restroom but even then the person can cover their identity.
> ...



I honestly think it's more than just cruel to commit hate crimes like that. It's also ridiculous to fight based on whether or not you identify with the gender you're born with. This is what this man was doing.

But I have heard worse. In the 70's and 80's, homosexuals were raided because they were homosexual. Like people used to go to primarily gay neighborhoods to commit break ins as form of hate crimes. And in the 50's and 60's, African-American protesters who fought for civil rights were persecuted and tortured by racists because of their fight for civil rights. Hate has always been, and always will be, a serious problem. It's contagious, unstoppable, and much more destructive than an F5 tornado or a Magnitude 9.0 earthquake. I wish it can go away, but I doubt it would happen.


----------



## moonford (Feb 25, 2017)

Apple2012 said:


> I honestly think it's more than just cruel to commit hate crimes like that. It's also ridiculous to fight based on whether or not you identify with the gender you're born with. This is what this man was doing.
> 
> But I have heard worse. In the 70's and 80's, homosexuals were raided because they were homosexual. Like people used to go to primarily gay neighborhoods to commit break ins as form of hate crimes. And in the 50's and 60's, African-American protesters who fought for civil rights were persecuted and tortured by racists because of their fight for civil rights. Hate has always been, and always will be, a serious problem. It's contagious, unstoppable, and much more destructive than an F5 tornado or a Magnitude 9.0 earthquake. I wish it can go away, but I doubt it would happen.



Yes and its still current right now, the Orlando shooting being an example.


----------



## Alolan_Apples (Feb 25, 2017)

Whiteflamingo said:


> Exactly.
> 
> * cis person attacks trans person, no one cares*
> 
> ...



Double standards huh?

It doesn't matter who applies them or who enforces them. Double standards by all means is a characteristic of evil. It makes the Disney villains look less evil. That's how bad double standards really are.

There are many characteristics of evil, something we were told not to do. Double standards and other forms of hypocrisy are some of them.


----------



## Leen (Feb 25, 2017)

There was a powerful quote that I found the other day:

"It's not about bathrooms, just like it was never about water fountains."


----------



## Haskell (Feb 25, 2017)

Leen said:


> There was a powerful quote that I found the other day:
> 
> "It's not about bathrooms, just like it was never about water fountains."



Meh. Imo, it's not about bigotry.


----------



## opalskiies (Feb 25, 2017)

Literally who cares? I saw the argument on this thread saying "use the one that matches your physical sex, you can't pee in a urinal with a vagina." Well, uh, sorry to break it to you, but male bathrooms also have stalls... Shocker!!!! In my opinion, there shouldn't even be gendered bathrooms. Public bathrooms are gross and creepy as it is, and peeing next to a person with a penis doesn't make it any different for me. If you're so concerned about the genitals of the person pooping in the same room as you, you're the creepy sex obsessed person, not the trans person. Seriously, why do people care so much?

- - - Post Merge - - -



Raskell said:


> Meh. Imo, it's not about bigotry.



It's 100% about bigotry, I don't see how you could think otherwise. It's all about how "trannies" are gross and sex offenders, it's about how they're "not natural," the "way God intended." If it's not about bigotry, it wouldn't even be an issue.


----------



## visibleghost (Feb 25, 2017)

Raskell said:


> Meh. Imo, it's not about bigotry.



yeah no youre wrong it is very much about bigotry.

it is a way to justify violence against trans people and make us out to be gross, weird, violent and sexual assaulters whiiich is funny because trans people are harassed a lot more than cis people but Yeah Well .

some interesting statistics about trans people in bathrooms
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN13X0BK


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## Alolan_Apples (Feb 25, 2017)

visibleghost said:


> yeah no youre wrong it is very much about bigotry.
> 
> it is a way to justify violence against trans people and make us out to be gross, weird, violent and sexual assaulters whiiich is funny because trans people are harassed a lot more than cis people but Yeah Well.



I know, it's pretty unfortunate. And trans people aren't alone. According to hate crime statistics here in America, the most common victims of hate crimes are homosexuals. And most of the hate criminals against gays and lesbians don't even consider crimes against LGBT as hate crimes. Sad, isn't it.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/06/16/us/hate-crimes-against-lgbt.html

I may not be the icon of tolerance, and I support keeping gendered bathrooms if they are structured like today's, but I have never been anti-LGBT as I find this atrocious.


----------



## f11 (Feb 25, 2017)

http://deadstate.org/more-gop-politicians-have-been-arrested-for-sexual-misconduct-in-bathrooms-than-trans-people/

This was an interesting article I found. These laws are just transphobia hiding behind the fa?ade of safety.


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## Haskell (Feb 25, 2017)

f11 said:


> http://deadstate.org/more-gop-politicians-have-been-arrested-for-sexual-misconduct-in-bathrooms-than-trans-people/
> 
> This was an interesting article I found. *These laws are just transphobia hiding behind the fa?ade of safety*.



I disagree. I think it is a confusing and controversial issue. Those who partake in trying to handle the social issue are just trying to do their best.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Whiteflamingo said:


> I was watching this video of a woman (who was trans) and there was a car which drove by, the man in the car pulled over and asked for directions. He pulled out a knife and stabbed her in the throat, he drove off and she bled to death. That man hasn't been caught and this was years ago.



Was it because she was transgender though? That is the question. It is likely the horrific man who asked for directions didn't stab her because of her identifying with a different gender than she was born with.


----------



## Ghost Soda (Feb 25, 2017)

Raskell said:


> Was it because she was transgender though? That is the question. It is likely the horrific man who asked for directions didn't stab her because of her identifying with a different gender than she was born with.



I'm pretty sure Whiteflamingo was saying that if the woman weren't trans, the guy would've been caught by now.


----------



## Tao (Feb 25, 2017)

Why is this a debate? Why are we at a point that where people decide to take a dump is a serious issue?



opalskiies said:


> Literally who cares? I saw the argument on this thread saying "use the one that matches your physical sex, you can't pee in a urinal with a vagina." Well, uh, sorry to break it to you, but male bathrooms also have stalls... Shocker!!!!



Yea, and at most there's half as many as there are in the womens toilets...Because men don't need to sit to pee and urinals remove the need to aim and flush too, but they still occasionally need to poop, which is why there's at least one cubicle in mens rooms for that one guy who didn't plan ahead before they left the house.

Urinals also come with little complimentary mints in them because men in particular like to have a fresh breath. To the inevitable person who takes that seriously, you're a grade A moron.

But use the mens room if you want, I just advise that you try to avoid using the cubicles.


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## Weiland (Feb 25, 2017)

I'm not a citizen of the USA, but wow. This is dumb.


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## vel (Feb 25, 2017)

yes it's dumb as hell. i really don't want to say anything more because i have nothing to say. taking away human rights is not ok no matter what form or whatever hell this is.


----------



## Leen (Feb 25, 2017)

I was at a Planned Parenthood event where they made all bathrooms all-gender bathrooms. Everyone was just going in and doing their business. People using urinals and stalls all alike. 

The Trump Administration, other law-pushers, and lay-people making this a big deal need to realize that. This is just another thing to further segregate people and force them into sex gender binaries.


----------



## dino (Feb 25, 2017)

Raskell said:


> Meh. Imo, it's not about bigotry.



i mean, i guess if you're not subject to the oppression and violence, it's easy to claim it's not about directed hate and phobia. 

this is why the discounting and continuous belittling of trans experience, of the experiences of all marginalized peoples as valid, concrete fact, is a problem. bc then people can be like, oh there are more important issues, but also its not abt bigotry. dismissal on two levels.

lol.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Apple2012 said:


> I may not be the icon of tolerance, and I support keeping gendered bathrooms if they are structured like today's, but I have never been anti-LGBT as I find this atrocious.



okay but is it possible that by not supporting what trans people are saying is VITAL to their safety and personal and public rights - that steps be taken immediately to address the lack of accessible and inclusive bathrooms, bc the current structure is actively harming them - that you are actually contributing to hurting/marginalizing them? 

asking you but also as a wider thought experiment about how unhelpful the passive middle ground on issues like this can actually be, that you may not have considered.


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## Haskell (Feb 25, 2017)

Ghost Soda said:


> I'm pretty sure Whiteflamingo was saying that if the woman weren't trans, the guy would've been caught by now.



I'm not sure if law enforcements are biased like that. Most aren't.

It is a good theory, but I just don't think it's right. The women's case not being investigated or looked into because of her wanting to be herself. There are times that law enforcement can't protect and serve due to lack of resources, evidence, et cetera.

I do understand the passion that many on this thread feel and I see no direct problem with it.

- - - Post Merge - - -



dino said:


> i mean, i guess if you're not subject to the *oppression and violence*, it's easy to claim it's not about directed hate and phobia.



Um, you don't know a thing about me. 

Please don't assume things. All people are subject to oppression and violence.


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## piichinu (Feb 25, 2017)

I don't want unisex bathrooms only I'm not comfortable around boys for facilities like that 

Also y are people paying attention to who uses which bathroom...y are they connecting and making eye contact and closely looking


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## Alolan_Apples (Feb 26, 2017)

I saw a couple of posts talking about how they find the issue to be ridiculous, and I agree, it is ridiclous. In fact, whether or not you find gendered bathrooms unnecessary, it still was not an issue until like four years ago. I'm not sure who started the debate, but this was how ridiculous our society has become. I would have to say that neither side in government were actually looking for a new issue, but I think society wanted to get the law involved. If you want to know what started this issue, I think it's society's intolerance towards transgender people. Maybe trans-males and trans-females have been using the bathrooms of their gender identity the whole time before it entered the spotlight. And now some are even favoring elimination of gender restrictions altogether.


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## visibleghost (Feb 26, 2017)

Raskell said:


> I disagree. I think it is a confusing and controversial issue. Those who partake in trying to handle the social issue are just trying to do their best.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



????????????????????????? 
they know that this change puts trans people in even more danger. i odnt care if are worried sbout cisgender pedophiles going into the girls bathroom (which they can do anyway just theyll be thrown out but like anyone who is in a bathroom to commit sex  crimes will not be welcome) it is still transphobic. also i think it is Totally about trans people theyre just coverign it up because everyone hates pedophiles and preventing sex crimes is Good.

this is not about opinions. you cant be like "well but in my opinion this group isnt oppressed" thats not how it works. trans people are saying that they are harassed in bathrooms by cis people. this change will make trans people an even bigger target. 

and honestly stop it. idk about that particular case but trans people (especially trans women of colour) are murdered a lot more than the cis population. simply for being transgender. 



Raskell said:


> I'm not sure if law enforcements are biased like that. Most aren't.
> 
> It is a good theory, but I just don't think it's right. The women's case not being investigated or looked into because of her wanting to be herself. There are times that law enforcement can't protect and serve due to lack of resources, evidence, et cetera.
> 
> ...


not transphobia lmao stopppppppp. not everyone  has to worry about being yelled at in a bathroom because theyre trans. cis people arent targeted for simply being alive as a cis person. 
please just stop trying to prove transphobia isnt real or that it isnt that bad. youre being really Not Great

and law enforcement arent biased ?????????? what world do you live in 
let me show u a thing. http://www.avp.org/storage/documents/ncavp_transhvfactsheet.pdf
police are more violent toward trans people. police are more violent against people of color. this isnt about opinions it is about facts.

- - - Post Merge - - -

link link but yeah no trans people are  Safe and we shouldnt assume that murdered trans women were murdered for being trans

link   and it is totally a coincidence that we need **** like this 

link    transgender kids are safer with gender neutral bathrooms or if they are allowed to use the right bathroom in school? yeah ok whatever this is still Juuuust about protecting our children from the disgusting cross dressers


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## xSuperMario64x (Feb 26, 2017)

I suspect most people don't just go into bathrooms and think okay I know these people and I trust them. I'm sure that they're very conscientious of the people around them.

Maybe a bathroom by age would be better? Like so a 45 yr old man cant go into the bathroom with a teenage girl?
Or maybe the stalls could be more than just flimsy half-open little doors that barely even lock?

Or maybe people could just suck it up. Like Apple said no one cared so much abut this issue until a few years ago.

Like if you're that afraid to go into a unisex bathroom or one of the opposite gender alone then take a buddy. It's really simple.
And if it's a one person bathroom with a heavy locked door then who's gonna get in??


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## visibleghost (Feb 26, 2017)

^ yeah. tho age restricted bathrooms would be weird since sometimes kids cant or dont wanna go in there alone plus sex offenders can be pretty much any age so i dont see how it would solve anything, i just feel like it would be more of a pain and not fix anything but idk lmao


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## forestyne (Feb 26, 2017)

Gendered bathrooms should stay the way they are, trans people should be able to go into whatever bathroom they want, the stalls should be less than a flimsy bit of wood. 

Okay, when are the admins locking this thread?


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## Haskell (Feb 26, 2017)

I have a hard time understanding why bathrooms are a political and social issue. 

They're bathrooms. Bathrooms, people!


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## forestyne (Feb 26, 2017)

Raskell said:


> I have a hard time understanding why bathrooms are a political and social issue.
> 
> They're bathrooms. Bathrooms, people!



It's a social issue because of the rights of transgender men/women. They should be allowed to go into the bathroom that fits their gender identity. It's a political issue because the old white men in charge put cis people above trans issues and allow transphobia to continue.


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## LambdaDelta (Feb 26, 2017)

old white men in charge live in a bubble, and would rather society conform to their limited worldview than accept those differences and branch out beyond said bubble


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## visibleghost (Feb 26, 2017)

Raskell said:


> I have a hard time understanding why bathrooms are a political and social issue.
> 
> They're bathrooms. Bathrooms, people!



if you'd read my posts and the links i posted about violence against trans people maybe you'd understand a bit more but alright


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## forestyne (Feb 26, 2017)

visibleghost said:


> if you'd read my posts and the links i posted about violence against trans people maybe you'd understand a bit more but alright



You did post some good sources on the topic of transphobic violence. See, Raskell? SOURCES!

Going into a bathroom that doesn't fit their gender identity or their needs not only makes them feel worthless, but it exposes them to hate crimes and makes them vulnerable. The majority of hate crime _is_ towards trans people, which is why it's not just 'bathrooms'.


----------



## dino (Feb 26, 2017)

Raskell said:


> Um, you don't know a thing about me.
> 
> Please don't assume things. All people are subject to oppression and violence.



lmfaoooo. this gaslighting. nah, ain't even playing to that tactic. 

oppression intersectionality. aka people who aren't trans = cannot speak for trans experiences or oppressions bc oppressions are not apples to apples and you cannot compare them directly 1:1. trans people discuss their oppressions as a community, have a collective community reality, based on fact and know whether the violence against them stems from bigotry.

and don't send advice to people you're not gonna take yourself



visibleghost said:


> this is not about opinions. you cant be like "well but in my opinion this group isnt oppressed" thats not how it works. trans people are saying that they are harassed in bathrooms by cis people. this change will make trans people an even bigger target.
> 
> not transphobia lmao stopppppppp. not everyone  has to worry about being yelled at in a bathroom because theyre trans. cis people arent targeted for simply being alive as a cis person. please just stop trying to prove transphobia isnt real or that it isnt that bad. youre being really Not Great
> 
> ...



really nice, concise response and sources! i definitely agree 200% and i hope people are taking the time to consider and learn the statistics and proven reality of transgender and other marginalized people, rather than just stating opinion and getting upset when people respond factually. educating oneself is difficult and utterly important. 

and if people aren't willing to discuss this on such a level, i would advise maybe not making or responding to the thread in the first place? being able to say that social issues aren't a big deal or are a ~lite forum topic is a huge privilege. 

this isn't just a topic on a computer screen for a lot of people. this is their bodily and mental safety, this is their every day existence, this is the future of their actual life.


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## forestyne (Feb 26, 2017)

LambdaDelta said:


> old white men in charge live in a bubble, and would rather society conform to their limited worldview than accept those differences and branch out beyond said bubble



Men in politics don't understand the struggles women have. It's quite upsetting because they're so closed-minded. I don't want to move the argument into a different topic, but it's similar to the problems with abortions. A cis white old man isn't going to ever understand the problems women face. It's exactly the same with transgender men/women. They don't think it's important, so the same cis white males who run the country who won't open their eyes to real world problems so they say they're 'just bathrooms'.


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## LambdaDelta (Feb 26, 2017)

forestyne said:


> but it's similar to the problems with abortions



funny enough, this was *exactly* another thing I was thinking of while typing the above up


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## Alolan_Apples (Feb 26, 2017)

forestyne said:


> It's a social issue because of the rights of transgender men/women. They should be allowed to go into the bathroom that fits their gender identity. It's a political issue because the old white men in charge put cis people above trans issues and allow transphobia to continue.



There's actually a reason why they don't seem to care about trans people that much. Even if the minority matters, focusing on them more than the majority has just as many negative consequences as focusing on the majority more than the minority. Even if some norms and cultural elements appeal to the majority, they got to realize that not everybody follows their lifestyles. We recognize Christmas as a national holiday, but not everybody is a Christian. We have expectations in education (like needing to know at least Algebra 2 before college), but not everybody could meet these expectations. But even if we try to listen to minorities in many classifications and appeal to them so they can't feel ignored, they got to realize that we have these lifestyles as the norm because the majority follows these lifestyles. It's not nice to infringe on someone else's lives because some can't agree to them. We shouldn't be forced to speak another language as a US citizen because someone else couldn't speak English. We shouldn't be forced to censor Christmas for Christians because of those who aren't Christian. That's why accommodations should be optional so we can appeal to minorities while letting majorities keep their lifestyles. Giving transgender students the permission to use bathrooms of their identity or having unisex single-occupancy restrooms would be examples of the 50/50 compromise. But there are some issues (like law enforcement and political correctness) where there is no middle ground. So that's why we have to stick to the option that seems more fair. If demands are actually ridiculous, they wouldn't listen to them.

But I do agree that the transgender bullying has to stop.


----------



## Haskell (Feb 26, 2017)

forestyne said:


> See, Raskell? SOURCES!



Stop please. I'm not debating sources with you.

- - - Post Merge - - -



forestyne said:


> *Men in politics don't understand the struggles women have.* It's quite upsetting because they're so closed-minded. I don't want to move the argument into a different topic, but it's similar to the problems with abortions. A cis white old man isn't going to ever understand the problems women face. It's exactly the same with transgender men/women. They don't think it's important, so the same cis white males who run the country who won't open their eyes to real world problems so they say they're 'just bathrooms'.



That's a bit sexist.


----------



## visibleghost (Feb 26, 2017)

Apple2012 said:


> There's actually a reason why they don't seem to care about trans people that much. Even if the minority matters, focusing on them more than the majority has just as many negative consequences as focusing on the majority more than the minority. Even if some norms and cultural elements appeal to the majority, they got to realize that not everybody follows their lifestyles. We recognize Christmas as a national holiday, but not everybody is a Christian. We have expectations in education (like needing to know at least Algebra 2 before college), but not everybody could meet these expectations. But even if we try to listen to minorities in many classifications and appeal to them so they can't feel ignored, they got to realize that we have these lifestyles as the norm because the majority follows these lifestyles. It's not nice to infringe on someone else's lives because some can't agree to them. We shouldn't be forced to speak another language as a US citizen because someone else couldn't speak English. We shouldn't be forced to censor Christmas for Christians because of those who aren't Christian. That's why accommodations should be optional so we can appeal to minorities while letting majorities keep their lifestyles. Giving transgender students the permission to use bathrooms of their identity or having unisex single-occupancy restrooms would be examples of the 50/50 compromise. But there are some issues (like law enforcement and political correctness) where there is no middle ground. So that's why we have to stick to the option that seems more fair. If demands are actually ridiculous, they wouldn't listen to them.
> 
> But I do agree that the transgender bullying has to stop.



no one is saying that being trans should be the norm. i'd just like it a lot if we werent killed, threatened, assaulted and bullied for being alive. i get that you're trying to say that you want trans people to get to exist but a lot of people who say that the majority shouldn't have to change their habits or lives to make minorities more comfortable are kinda like "trans people are ok but if i see one in real life i am going to scream and have a heart attack"
sometimes the majority needs to make minor changes in their lives to make the lives of minorities a lot easier.

i think that in order for cis people to truly accept trans people they need to think about gender and understand that they, too, have made a "choice" in their gender identity. this takes effort and you need to understand your own position and your own gender and how gender affects everyone and that it isn't as restricted, binary and factual as we are made to think.
tho we're still working on making cis people not hurt us for just being alive as trans ppl so i guess we have a long way to go until that becomes rly relevant

- - - Post Merge - - -



Raskell said:


> Stop please. I'm not debating sources with you.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



????????????????????????????????????????????
what is sexist about saying that men dont understand women's issues when it is the truth. sexism isnt anything negative said about a gender lmao stop reaching please i feel like you're just baiting us now

anyways look at this Nice Meme i found on tumbler dot org


----------



## seliph (Feb 26, 2017)

Raskell said:


> I have a hard time understanding why bathrooms are a political and social issue.
> 
> They're bathrooms. Bathrooms, people!



If enough people haven't explained it to you:

This is a law banning trans people from going to the bathroom. _The ****ing bathroom_. Everyone _needs_ to go to the bathroom. You need to go when you're working, you need to go when you're at school, you need to be able to freaking take a pee if you want to live.

By denying people access to public bathrooms, you are essentially banning them from existing in public as a whole. This law is basically telling trans people to stay at home and die. It's violent transphobia sugar coated with a faux "But think of the kids!"


----------



## forestyne (Feb 26, 2017)

Raskell said:


> Stop please. I'm not debating sources with you.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



You're a white male, correct? So how are you _ever_ going to experience a pregnancy and the struggle that comes with that? Biologically you can't and never will, unless science improves in your lifetime. It's exactly why the orange ballsack and his 'Dad's Army' needs to open his eyes and realise that trans people exist and DESERVE the same rights as cis people. Cis people cannot say that trans people aren't oppressed. SO MANY PEOPLe have said this before me.

My point still stands, don't bring raw fish to a debate about cooked ones. Facts and sources, not opinions.


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## LambdaDelta (Feb 26, 2017)

gyro said:


> It's violent transphobia sugar coated with a faux "But think of the kids!"



saying it's "sugar coated" is acting like this has some small level of credibility

really, it's just a bull**** excuse they make up to justify their hatred. since of course they can't go out and publicly say "we think these people should die"


----------



## forestyne (Feb 26, 2017)

visibleghost said:


> ????????????????????????????????????????????
> what is sexist about saying that men dont understand women's issues when it is the truth. sexism isnt anything negative said about a gender lmao stop reaching please i feel like you're just baiting us now
> 
> anyways look at this Nice Meme i found on tumbler dot org



nice meme there, pal.

There's nothing sexist about stating biological facts. Men cannot decide what a woman does with her body.  I think he's just trying to bait as much as possible to start an argument, which will just get him banned and another political thread closed.


----------



## seliph (Feb 26, 2017)

LambdaDelta said:


> saying it's "sugar coated" is acting like this has some small level of credibility
> 
> really, it's just a bull**** excuse they make up to justify their hatred. since of course they can't go out and publicly say "we think these people should die"



True but you have to dumb things down a bit with Trump supporters


----------



## forestyne (Feb 26, 2017)

LambdaDelta said:


> saying it's "sugar coated" is acting like this has some small level of credibility
> 
> really, it's just a bull**** excuse they make up to justify their hatred. since of course they can't go out and publicly say "we think these people should die"



They're just using whatever they can, even if it's dull and thick-skulled. I can't wait for the future, when open-minded people will go into politics.


----------



## Envy (Feb 26, 2017)

forestyne said:


> They're just using whatever they can, even if it's dull and thick-skulled. I can't wait for the future, when open-minded people will go into politics.



I've been waiting for that forever. But just when you think everything's going to be okay, a nightmare like Trump somehow raises up into power and sends us all back to the gutters.


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## Haskell (Feb 26, 2017)

Trump is doing what he promises. State rights. We're the *United States* Of America.


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## forestyne (Feb 26, 2017)

gyro said:


> True but you have to dumb things down a bit with Trump supporters



lmao

From what I've seen, there's two sides of Trump supporters: dumb, uneducated kids and ancient closed-minded and racist old people who grew up in the 60s.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Raskell said:


> Trump is doing what he promises. State rights. We're the *United States* Of America.



Did you mean: the *Separated State*s of America. He's tearing America apart.


----------



## Haskell (Feb 26, 2017)

forestyne said:


> nice meme there, pal.
> 
> There's nothing sexist about stating biological facts. Men cannot decide what a woman does with her body. * I think he's just trying to bait as much as possible to start an argument, which will just get him banned and another political thread closed*.



I'm giving my opinion. Which is what these discussions are for. Political discussions aren't suppose to be "let's all agree." 

I like this thread. It is full of informed, open-minded individuals talking about a prominent issue in the states.


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## LambdaDelta (Feb 26, 2017)

forestyne said:


> They're just using whatever they can, even if it's dull and thick-skulled. I can't wait for the future, when open-minded people will go into politics.



sadly, even with this my current bet is on


Spoiler


----------



## forestyne (Feb 26, 2017)

Envy said:


> I've been waiting for that forever. But just when you think everything's going to be okay, a nightmare like Trump somehow raises up into power and sends us all back to the gutters.



_One day._ We just need to survive the next four years. :>


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## Haskell (Feb 26, 2017)

forestyne said:


> Did you mean: the *Separated State*s of America. He's tearing America apart.



306 electoral college votes.
Won states that Obama won. 

I can see where you're coming from though.


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## LambdaDelta (Feb 26, 2017)

the electoral college is ******** garbage that has zero reason to exist in a technological age


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## forestyne (Feb 26, 2017)

LambdaDelta said:


> sadly, even with this my current bet is on
> 
> 
> Spoiler



Very true. There needs to be more kids getting education and using sources and learning from history, but it just continues to repeat itself, even when it really, _really_ shouldn't.

- - - Post Merge - - -



LambdaDelta said:


> the electoral college is ******** garbage that has zero reason to exist in a technological age



I still think it should be down to the majority vote, that Hilary rightfully won, not an over 60s club.


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## Envy (Feb 26, 2017)

Raskell said:


> Trump is doing what he promises. State rights. We're the *United States* Of America.



You probably shouldn't have bolded "United" there. Clearly this ain't about being united. And I will not stand for the "rights" of states to be able to determine whether to treat an extremely unfairly demonized minority like dirt or not.

Seriously, this is flipping awful. I am so ashamed of my country.


----------



## seliph (Feb 26, 2017)

Raskell said:


> Trump is doing what he promises. State rights. We're the *United States* Of America.





Raskell said:


> 306 electoral college votes.
> Won states that Obama won.
> 
> I can see where you're coming from though.



These had nothing to even do with what people were saying lmao


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## LambdaDelta (Feb 26, 2017)

gyro said:


> These had nothing to even do with what people were saying lmao



it's the standard defense mechanism of an average trump supporter that's cornered at play

ignoring things that are too inconvenient for them, and diverting everything else


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## forestyne (Feb 26, 2017)

Dragging the argument off somewhere else again.

America being United has nothing to do with the issue of bathrooms. Please keep it on topic with the discussion at hand. Allowing the states to do what they want warrants hatred towards minorities.





aNYWayz like if u agree jessie and james from team rocket are a better duo than cheap fart (trump and pence)

- - - Post Merge - - -



LambdaDelta said:


> it's the standard defense mechanism of an average trump supporter that's cornered at play
> 
> ignoring things that are too inconvenient for them, and diverting everything else



Yes, also a lame argument tactic that anyone trained in a debate can see is happening. Normally when they don't really know what they're talking about, point to something else and make a runner. Then come back with another lame defence.


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## LambdaDelta (Feb 26, 2017)

forestyne said:


> aNYWayz like if u agree jessie and james from team rocket are a better duo than cheap fart (trump and pence)



both are basically cartoon villains, but the anime ones have shown far more empathy

meowth for president 2020


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## Envy (Feb 26, 2017)

forestyne said:


> aNYWayz like if u agree jessie and james from team rocket are a better duo than cheap fart (trump and pence)



Too bad Trump and Pence are actually successful villains. They'd be a lot funnier if they always came around trying to steal America, but always failed and ended up getting blasted off into the sky every time because they're too hateful for America.

But alas, we're living in _this_ America now.


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## forestyne (Feb 26, 2017)

why does pence look like he's holding in a steamer lmao

People should just be accepting of who goes into gendered bathrooms. It would seriously reduce the vulnerability that trans men/women have to transphobic violence. Unisex bathrooms are a good idea, but I don't think everyone would be too comfortable using them. More security is also a good idea, such as more secure stall doors.


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## LambdaDelta (Feb 26, 2017)

forestyne said:


> Yes, also a lame argument tactic that anyone trained in a debate can see is happening. Normally when they don't really know what they're talking about, point to something else and make a runner. Then come back with another lame defence.



I love how my years of pointlessly arguing on the internet in the past have made me able to spot this stuff from a mile away

though it's so predictable here that spotting it isn't even any fun


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## forestyne (Feb 26, 2017)

Envy said:


> Too bad Trump and Pence are actually successful villains. They'd be a lot funnier if they always came around trying to steal America, but always failed and ended up getting blasted off into the sky every time because they're too hateful for America.
> 
> But alas, we're living in _this_ America now.









Not all is lost though. There is a petition calling for Donald Trump's impeachment.


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## visibleghost (Feb 26, 2017)

forestyne said:


> View attachment 194851
> why does pence look like he's holding in a steamer lmao
> 
> People should just be accepting of who goes into gendered bathrooms. It would seriously reduce the vulnerability that trans men/women have to transphobic violence. Unisex bathrooms are a good idea, but I don't think everyone would be too comfortable using them. More security is also a good idea, such as more secure stall doors.



yeah a lot of public bathrooms have walls like this and it's a bit Uncomfortable ....


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## LambdaDelta (Feb 26, 2017)

unfortunately, there's 2 levels of impeachment

constitutional violation etc being the first level, and honestly useless while the GOP has full majority control

so the second level becomes "the GOP votes out their own platform", and with how clearly they're now a party-before-country party uh

yeah, unless something super major happens or we get a historical-level impeachment carried out in a different manner... lmao good luck


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## forestyne (Feb 26, 2017)

visibleghost said:


> yeah a lot of public bathrooms have walls like this and it's a bit Uncomfortable ....View attachment 194853



"idk what you're taking about, looks secure & stable to me. nobody could _ever_ be sexually assaulted in that"
- Every Man in Politics Ever​
- - - Post Merge - - -



LambdaDelta said:


> unfortunately, there's 2 levels of impeachment
> 
> constitutional violation etc being the first level, and honestly useless while the GOP has full majority control
> 
> ...



T_T we can dream.

Let's not talk about how his casino went bankrupt. How the hell does a casino go bankrupt?
He's clearly not a good businessman, nor fit to be a president.  How drastic would it need to be to get him impeached.?


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## Haskell (Feb 26, 2017)

forestyne said:


> "idk what you're taking about, looks secure & stable to me. nobody could _ever_ be sexually assaulted in that"
> - Every Man in Politics Ever​
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



Look at the business and empire he built again, please.


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## forestyne (Feb 26, 2017)

Raskell said:


> Look at the business and empire he built again, please.



Sure. I'm looking hard as hell but I don't see a business nor an empire.

The economy is just going to go to ****. How the hell does a casino go bankrupt ???????? that's like having a lemon tree grow oranges. not possible in any logic.

- - - Post Merge - - -

He handed all of his businesses to his son, so he doesn't even own them anymore so that's a lame argument. Back to the matter at hand.


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## Blueskyy (Feb 26, 2017)

I agree that people should use the bathroom that their physical body should use, but I also think there should be unisex bathrooms in places for those people who identify as something mentally that differs from their physical body. That way everyone can have their space and life can go on, because I'm tired of bathroom debates lol.


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## LambdaDelta (Feb 27, 2017)

Raskell said:


> Look at the business and empire he built again, please.



not sure how he "built" anything being born with a silver spoon in his mouth


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## dino (Feb 27, 2017)

i mean, i don't know any ""alternative facts"" but it don't seem to me that business (or lack of it in this case) got anything to do with human rights. and i think lil somethings called the bill of rights and basic humanity agree with that. 

so let's not muddle the issue of the forum topic


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## N a t (Feb 27, 2017)

My mom was really mad about the whole "Bathroom Policy" because perverts could use this as a chance to do bad things to vulnerable people. But honestly, I don't know why this policy made things worse for anyone, seeing as how anyone could do bad things in a public restroom to begin with. What's gonna stop some wacko from sneaking into the opposite sex restroom and doing weird things to begin with anyways? Not the sign, that's for sure. Things might be slightly easier for someone whether they just claim to be transgendered or actually are, and abuse that freedom, by doing some crazy **** in the restroom. But nothing was stopping them before. Half the time, nobody cares or notices anyways. Once when I was a child, and not a very young child I assure you, I accidentally wandered into a men's room. Once I realized I was in there, I quickly left, but nobody noticed I went in or came out. To be completely honest, I think creating the bathroom policy was a waste of time, because I believe few are gonna care, as long as you really look like the assigned sex, but it's an even bigger waste of time trying to change or abolish it. You can't stop crazy with a couple of laws or signs.


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## visibleghost (Feb 27, 2017)

Petey Piranha said:


> My mom was really mad about the whole "Bathroom Policy" because perverts could use this as a chance to do bad things to vulnerable people. But honestly, I don't know why this policy made things worse for anyone, seeing as how anyone could do bad things in a public restroom to begin with. What's gonna stop some wacko from sneaking into the opposite sex restroom and doing weird things to begin with anyways? Not the sign, that's for sure. Things might be slightly easier for someone whether they just claim to be transgendered or actually are, and abuse that freedom, by doing some crazy **** in the restroom. But nothing was stopping them before. Half the time, nobody cares or notices anyways. Once when I was a child, and not a very young child I assure you, I accidentally wandered into a men's room. Once I realized I was in there, I quickly left, but nobody noticed I went in or came out. To be completely honest, I think creating the bathroom policy was a waste of time, because I believe few are gonna care, as long as you really look like the assigned sex, but it's an even bigger waste of time trying to change or abolish it. You can't stop crazy with a couple of laws or signs.



people do care tho
trans people are harassed by cis ppl in bathrooms thats why we needore laws and policies that protect us


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## N a t (Feb 27, 2017)

visibleghost said:


> people do care tho
> trans people are harassed by cis ppl in bathrooms thats why we needore laws and policies that protect us



Perhaps my wording was awkward, but I meant that if you look the part, I don't see why anyone would suspect you unless you made yourself out to be very suspicious. And forgive me for making an assumption, but if you want to be the opposite sex wouldn't you also want to look the part? It's just a thought. If I wanted to be male, I'd want to look male. And if I looked male and used a male restroom, I don't think anyone would bother me because they'd see me as that sex.

- - - Post Merge - - -

That doesn't mean everyone feels that way though. It's an assumption, but I mean no ill.


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## visibleghost (Feb 27, 2017)

Petey Piranha said:


> Perhaps my wording was awkward, but I meant that if you look the part, I don't see why anyone would suspect you unless you made yourself out to be very suspicious. And forgive me for making an assumption, but if you want to be the opposite sex wouldn't you also want to look the part? It's just a thought. If I wanted to be male, I'd want to look male. And if I looked male and used a male restroom, I don't think anyone would bother me because they'd see me as that sex.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> That doesn't mean everyone feels that way though. It's an assumption, but I mean no ill.



trans people dont have to "pass" to deserve to not be harassed. you cant blame this on trans people. it is literally impossible for so many trans people to pass as cis!!! even if they want to!!! even after fully transitioning, even if you try to make yourself look as masculine/feminine as humanly possible so many still cant pass. we shouldnt have to look cis to not be assaulted. 
i umderstand that you arent trying to blame trans people but this way of thinking is problematic and centered around the needs and feelings of (transphobic) cis people.
like, what you are saying is kinda like if a kid is bullied because they are a nerd, the kid should stop liking comics and math so they wont be a nerd anymore which will stop the bullying. the bullies need to be dealt with, not the nerdy kid. (though with trans issues it is worse because it reinforces transphobic ways of thinking which leads to more hate crimes against trans ppl and stuff)

also the concept of passing is really ****ing gross an i hate it so much because it just reinforces cissexist, gender stereotypical and transphobic ideas and it makes me want to mcfricking Die  but thats another discussion i guess.


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## LambdaDelta (Feb 27, 2017)

I mean plenty of people could only go so far with "looking the part" as a baseline, so...

and I don't mean this to put down trans people not looking like their gender or anything, but just simply it being a case of basic male and female body structure being generally widely different even outside of the super major things


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## N a t (Feb 27, 2017)

visibleghost said:


> trans people dont have to "pass" to deserve to not be harassed. you cant blame this on trans people. it is literally impossible for so many trans people to pass as cis!!! even if they want to!!! even after fully transitioning, even if you try to make yourself look as masculine/feminine as humanly possible so many still cant pass. we shouldnt have to look cis to not be assaulted.
> i umderstand that you arent trying to blame trans people but this way of thinking is problematic and centered around the needs and feelings of (transphobic) cis people.
> like, what you are saying is kinda like if a kid is bullied because they are a nerd, the kid should stop liking comics and math so they wont be a nerd anymore which will stop the bullying. the bullies need to be dealt with, not the nerdy kid. (though with trans issues it is worse because it reinforces transphobic ways of thinking which leads to more hate crimes against trans ppl and stuff)
> 
> also the concept of passing is really ****ing gross an i hate it so much because it just reinforces cissexist, gender stereotypical and transphobic ideas and it makes me want to mcfricking Die  but thats another discussion i guess.



I'm not saying that anyone should HAVE to pass some sort of unwritten test or anything. It's just more of society's awful standards for human beings. And trans people don't deserve harassment for any reason at all. I'm just trying to say that for those who can manage to pass, it would definitely help them in this current situation. All I'm sayin' is that if you can pass for whatever sex you are, you'd have an easier time surviving. It sucks, and it's a cowards way, but sometimes a way is a way. If that makes sense. But if you're strong enough to fend off all of the bullying and harassment until this whole issue is resolved, then by all means.

- - - Post Merge - - -



LambdaDelta said:


> I mean plenty of people could only go so far with "looking the part" as a baseline, so...
> 
> and I don't mean this to put down trans people not looking like their gender or anything, but just simply it being a case of basic male and female body structure being generally widely different even outside of the super major things



I understand what you and Ghost are saying, and that was one thing I overlooked. That it can be hard to look the part. But as I mentioned above, it's just something to think about or try if you haven't. If you think you can look like any other man or woman, then it wouldn't hurt to try. And if it doesn't work out, I'm sorry that you can't pass under the evil eye, so to speak. I don't think any of my words were interpreted how I wanted them to be, seeing the responses I've received. I apologize for that...


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## visibleghost (Feb 27, 2017)

i found an interesting article about the issues of passing and not letting trans people into the right bathroom http://www.washingtonblade.com/2016/03/23/passing-privilege-debate-conjures-stereotypes/

it's a year old but i think it is very relevant

 tldr: picture of two girls (people who look like Girls and all that u know what i mean anyone who looks at the picture will say it is two girls) outside a changing room captioned "so, tell me, which girl shouldn't be allowed in?" one of the girls is trans and the other cis (i assume lol)
the article brings up the issues with this picture and passing (cost, it's often impossible, not everyone wants to) - should trans people really have to look cis to not be discriminated?

i think it is a good perspective. many people mean well when they say things like "she looks like and behaves just like any other girl" when they defend/support/whatever a trans girl. but that's kinda in soem ways counter productive and problematic.

i hope this exppains more about what i meant w/  my last post lol idk it might be unreadable


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## LambdaDelta (Feb 27, 2017)

society should abolish the idea that clothing is gendered tbh


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## Red Cat (Feb 27, 2017)

visibleghost said:


> i found an interesting article about the issues of passing and not letting trans people into the right bathroom http://www.washingtonblade.com/2016/03/23/passing-privilege-debate-conjures-stereotypes/
> 
> it's a year old but i think it is very relevant
> 
> ...



I don't think it's ever to okay to discriminate against someone over how they appear, but you have to understand that some people will get freaked out when they see something which appears out of the ordinary to them. Biologically, humans are divided into two sexes: male and female. Males and females have physical traits which distinguish them from the other sex. Many people see sex as a part of humanity and if someone doesn't "look" either male or female, then to some people they don't "look" human. While it easier said than done for people to  change their bodies, people still see at as a "grooming" issue where frankly at a certain point like with clothes, hair, etc. it seems like it's less about someone expressing their individuality and more about that person just looking like ****. It's not nice to say that out loud, but nearly everyone thinks that about someone they see. People's brains are naturally wired to judge other people's appearances to an extent, and if they see someone who looks "in-between", their first thought is going to be "WTF?" even if they are supportive of transgender rights.


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## LambdaDelta (Feb 27, 2017)

LambdaDelta said:


> society should abolish the idea that clothing is gendered tbh



oh yeah, and makeup, accessories, etc too


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## Leen (Feb 27, 2017)

Envy, dino, gyro, forestyne, visibleghost: If I could clap any louder, I'd get thrown out of this bar that I'm at lmao. I WISH I knew y'all in RL. You sound like some cool peeps.


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## visibleghost (Feb 27, 2017)

Red Cat said:


> I don't think it's ever to okay to discriminate against someone over how they appear, but you have to understand that some people will get freaked out when they see something which appears out of the ordinary to them. Biologically, humans are divided into two sexes: male and female. Males and females have physical traits which distinguish them from the other sex. Many people see sex as a part of humanity and if someone doesn't "look" either male or female, then to some people they don't "look" human. While it easier said than done for people to  change their bodies, people still see at as a "grooming" issue where frankly at a certain point like with clothes, hair, etc. it seems like it's less about someone expressing their individuality and more about that person just looking like ****. It's not nice to say that out loud, but nearly everyone thinks that about someone they see. People's brains are naturally wired to judge other people's appearances to an extent, and if they see someone who looks "in-between", their first thought is going to be "WTF?" even if they are supportive of transgender rights.



yeah ik people think that. pretty much everyone assumes gender based on looks. i just wish that wouldnt be the case.

and it doesnt justify harassment, bullying or abuse. ik u didnt write that it justifies it but what i wanna say is that what matters the most is how people are treated. 
obviously i'd rather have all gender stereotypes and all that stuff Killed but that's not realistic and very far away from the world we live in so yhh


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## Corrie (Feb 27, 2017)

visibleghost said:


> yeah ik people think that. pretty much everyone assumes gender based on looks. i just wish that wouldnt be the case.
> 
> and it doesnt justify harassment, bullying or abuse. ik u didnt write that it justifies it but what i wanna say is that what matters the most is how people are treated.
> obviously i'd rather have all gender stereotypes and all that stuff Killed but that's not realistic and very far away from the world we live in so yhh



I wish gender stereotypes would be abolished too. It's sad and it causes so many unneeded problems. We are heading in the right direction I think but are met with some intense resistance. Hopefully that resistance will fade over time. 

I remember seeing a mascara commercial that showed what appeared to be either a gay guy or a trans guy being the spokesperson. It was really cool and is a step in thw right direction.


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## Haskell (Feb 27, 2017)

There are two genders. I don't care what you call yourself, others should call you that. If you identify with male, use the boi's room. If you identify as female, use the gal's restroom.  Now, don't just go around identifying yourself as male or female to get into the restrooms and cause devastation upon people using the restroom.


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## N e s s (Feb 27, 2017)

Raskell said:


> *There are two genders*.





Raskell said:


> *There are two genders*.





Raskell said:


> *are two genders*.





Raskell said:


> *two genders*.



*facepalms* theres 2 sexes you ding dong.


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## Haskell (Feb 27, 2017)

N e s s said:


> *facepalms* theres 2 sexes you ding dong.



Gender and sex are the same thing. .-.


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## xSuperMario64x (Feb 27, 2017)

N e s s said:


> *facepalms* theres 2 sexes you ding dong.



That's what they meant...??


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## N e s s (Feb 27, 2017)

Raskell said:


> Gender and sex are the same thing. .-.



I'd go into explanation, but this made me chuckle. I'll let you do your own research.


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## Alolan_Apples (Feb 27, 2017)

Yep, I think it's time for this discussion to end.

I hate to say, but the whole debate on whether there are two or more genders has gotten very controversial and is best to be left out of the debate. That kind of debate fuels heated arguments to where it goes out of control. That, and I already seen some hard arguing. It sure went well on the first 50 posts, but I wouldn't think it did go well near the end. I know it hasn't gotten ugly yet, but to prevent this from getting worse (since I know some subjects like # of genders get really heated), I should request lock.

Party's over!


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## LambdaDelta (Feb 27, 2017)

Raskell said:


> Gender and sex are the same thing. .-.



please go educate yourself, because no

sex is biological, gender is mental and societal


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## dino (Feb 27, 2017)

Leen said:


> Envy, dino, gyro, forestyne, visibleghost: If I could clap any louder, I'd get thrown out of this bar that I'm at lmao. I WISH I knew y'all in RL. You sound like some cool peeps.



pls leen!!! so same at you. love your adds here and everywhere else, always. all of y'all are such good people and i'm very happy to be on these boards with ya. <333 keep on keeping on.




Raskell said:


> There are two genders. I don't care what you call yourself, others should call you that. If you identify with male, use the boi's room. If you identify as female, use the gal's restroom.  Now, don't just go around identifying yourself as male or female to get into the restrooms and cause devastation upon people using the restroom.



hooooo everyone watch out, the gender police are here! you can only be blue or pink!!! only those two, no other genderscolors exist!! :}}}} hahaha

"cause devastation upon" is such dramatic borderline hate-speech lmfao. if you'd been reading all of the actual stats and facts on this thread, you would know there is no documented trend of trans people doing anything wrong in the bathroom at all, whatsoever. this ""devastation"" you are claiming, again, nonfactual, is all from cis people.

sure could use some policing to stop...that....




Raskell said:


> Gender and sex are the same thing. .-.





xSuperMario64x said:


> That's what they meant...??



alas, fallacious


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## LambdaDelta (Feb 27, 2017)

Apple2012 said:


> Yep, I think it's time for this discussion to end.
> 
> I hate to say, but the whole debate on whether there are two or more genders has gotten very controversial and is best to be left out of the debate. That kind of debate fuels heated arguments to where it goes out of control. That, and I already seen some hard arguing. It sure went well on the first 50 posts, but I wouldn't think it did go well near the end. I know it hasn't gotten ugly yet, but to prevent this from getting worse (since I know some subjects like # of genders get really heated), I should request lock.
> 
> Party's over!



I have a counter request

auto-ban raskell from these threads

the only thing he ever contributes to discussions is horrible argument baiting and an absolute refusal to listen to anyone with a counterpoint for anything they say


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## xSuperMario64x (Feb 27, 2017)

Apple2012 said:


> Yep, I think it's time for this discussion to end.
> 
> I hate to say, but the whole debate on whether there are two or more genders has gotten very controversial and is best to be left out of the debate. That kind of debate fuels heated arguments to where it goes out of control. That, and I already seen some hard arguing. It sure went well on the first 50 posts, but I wouldn't think it did go well near the end. I know it hasn't gotten ugly yet, but to prevent this from getting worse (since I know some subjects like # of genders get really heated), I should request lock.
> 
> Party's over!



Yes please. It's just a bathroom issue. Let the states figure out what to do about it.


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## LambdaDelta (Feb 27, 2017)

"it's just a bathroom issue" - privileged cis people parading around their privilege


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## dino (Feb 27, 2017)

Apple2012 said:


> Yep, I think it's time for this discussion to end.
> 
> I hate to say, but the whole debate on whether there are two or more genders has gotten very controversial and is best to be left out of the debate. That kind of debate fuels heated arguments to where it goes out of control. That, and I already seen some hard arguing. It sure went well on the first 50 posts, but I wouldn't think it did go well near the end. I know it hasn't gotten ugly yet, but to prevent this from getting worse (since I know some subjects like # of genders get really heated), I should request lock.
> 
> Party's over!



p sure there was a convo just in btb main abt how threads belong to the community not the op once they're posted? people are still talking on this one 

from my view, the majority of the posts on this thread have presented logical, factual information in a polite and often, repeated for the sake of clarity and emphasis manner. that to me seems like good conversation. if there's a problem with "heated arguments" i would advise that the people posting with heightened emotion about their personal beliefs consider how best to contribute to these kinds of conversations.


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## Jeremy (Feb 27, 2017)

Please remember to be respectful towards others in your posts, no matter how much you may disagree with them.  As you should all know, this is an important rule of ours, and we warn, infract, or suspend members who violate it.  You can read our rules here: Rules and Guidelines.

Also, please don't try to enforce this rule on your own.  If you think something needs attention, please report the post and we will look into it.  Thank you.


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## xSuperMario64x (Feb 27, 2017)

dino said:


> from my view, the majority of the posts on this thread have presented logical, factual information in a polite and often, repeated for the sake of clarity and emphasis manner.



Idk the one below my last comment sounded pretty rude...


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## LambdaDelta (Feb 27, 2017)

ok moses, but without being non-partisan, where do you stand?



xSuperMario64x said:


> Idk the one below my last comment sounded pretty rude...



<3


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## Alolan_Apples (Feb 27, 2017)

Jeremy said:


> Please remember to be respectful towards others in your posts, no matter how much you may disagree with them.  As you should all know, this is an important rule of ours, and we warn, infract, or suspend members who violate it.  You can read our rules here: Rules and Guidelines.
> 
> Also, please don't try to enforce this rule on your own.  If you think something needs attention, please report the post and we will look into it.  Thank you.



I was just looking out for the community, hoping they don't get in trouble.


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## Flare (Feb 27, 2017)

Seriously, what is up with people who are one sided on genders, or even are against one?
Everyone is equal, everyone is the same, Male or not, Female or not, we all are human, and should live together.


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## N a t (Feb 27, 2017)

It's nice to know that people can make such compelling arguments in only a few short words... *SHE SAID SARCASTICALLY*


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## Leen (Feb 27, 2017)

Flare21 said:


> Seriously, what is up with people who are one sided on genders, or even are against one?
> Everyone is equal, everyone is the same, Male or not, Female or not, we all are human, and should live together.



Flare21, yes everyone _should_ be equal, however the sad reality is that we are not. And by we, I mean the minorities: people of color, LGBTQ, women, etc etc.


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## Leen (Feb 27, 2017)

Flare21 said:


> Seriously, what is up with people who are one sided on genders, or even are against one?
> Everyone is equal, everyone is the same, Male or not, Female or not, we all are human, and should live together.



Flare21, yes everyone _should_ be equal, however the sad reality is that we are not. And by we, I mean the minorities: people of color, LGBTQ, women, etc etc.


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## N a t (Feb 27, 2017)

I still think that the bathroom policy was dumb before and changing it is dumb too. It was supposed to be helping trans people, but I don't think it did much. Just from what I've heard and seen, they still seem to be suffering, despite the efforts to help them. I just don't think it was a strong enough idea. But I guess the way things are going, you guys probably take what you can get if it helps? I don't mean that in a bad way either.


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## Haskell (Feb 27, 2017)

Leen said:


> Flare21, yes everyone _should_ be equal, however the sad reality is that we are not. And by we, I mean the minorities: people of color, LGBTQ, women, etc etc.



I'm apart of the LGBTQ community and I sure am happy to live in this country rather than *any other country*. America is America. I love it, like it, and will live in it. Also you calling women minorities is a false statement. There's more women in the United States than men. They aren't a minority.


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## Leen (Feb 27, 2017)

Raskell said:


> I'm apart of the LGBTQ community and I sure am happy to live in this country rather than *any other country*. America is America. I love it, like it, and will live in it. Also you calling women minorities is a false statement. There's more women in the United States than men. They aren't a minority.



Lol....Raskell....You're in some serious need of a wake up call. 

Cue all of the women coming in now to tell you how you're wrong. You've asked for this one.


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## Corrie (Feb 27, 2017)

Raskell said:


> I'm apart of the LGBTQ community and I sure am happy to live in this country rather than *any other country*. America is America. I love it, like it, and will live in it. Also you calling women minorities is a false statement. There's more women in the United States than men. They aren't a minority.



They mean that women aren't treated equally which is the same with LGBT+, coloured people, etc.


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## Alolan_Apples (Feb 27, 2017)

Raskell said:


> I'm apart of the LGBTQ community and I sure am happy to live in this country rather than *any other country*. America is America. I love it, like it, and will live in it. Also you calling women minorities is a false statement. There's more women in the United States than men. They aren't a minority.



You're right, but they have been treated like second class citizens for a long time. Even back when African-Americans were first given the right to vote, white women still couldn't vote. And during the Depression when African-Americans had a few rights, women had even fewer rights. That's kind of the reason why I think Leen mentioned women.


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## Haskell (Feb 27, 2017)

Leen said:


> *Lol....Raskell....You're in some serious need of a wake up call.*
> 
> Cue all of the women coming in now to tell you how you're wrong. You've asked for this one


*I don't say these things to you. Please refrain from saying them to me. Conversation is a two way street.*

A lot of women agree with me, Leen. That's un-deniable. Women aren't a minority. A lot of companies, business, political figures face pressure into being fair, as should be. Sexism is not a prominent issue as a lot of people see it as.


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## Leen (Feb 27, 2017)

Corrie said:


> They mean that women aren't treated equally which is the same with LGBT+, coloured people, etc.



Nailed it. Thanks Corrie <3 I mean I thought I was being pretty clear right? I can go for ages talking about how us women are not treated (or paid) fairly. Let's be real.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Raskell said:


> *I don't say these things to you. Please refrain from saying them to me. Conversation is a two way street.*
> 
> A lot of women agree with me, Leen. That's un-deniable. Women aren't a minority. A lot of companies, business, political figures face pressure into being fair, as should be. Sexism is not a prominent issue as a lot of people see it as.




Raskell, I don't think you're getting what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about numbers, I'm talking about equality, rights, wages.


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## Haskell (Feb 27, 2017)

Leen said:


> Nailed it. Thanks Corrie <3 I mean I thought I was being pretty clear right? I can go for ages talking about how us women are not treated (or paid) fairly. Let's be real.



Okay. How are women not treated fairly? 



> Sexism is not a prominent issue as a lot of people see it as.


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## N a t (Feb 27, 2017)

LambdaDelta said:


> "it's just a bathroom issue" - privileged cis people parading around their privilege



I'm sorry, but this comment is just really funny to me. I know that the focus of this topic is sex and gender related privileges, but does nobody else ever think about the privileges that they do have? Maybe a trans person doesn't have the privileges of a non-trans, but they might have a certain race privilege, or some sort of privilege given to them based on the country they live in, or their working class. Does nobody ever stop these days and remember that they may be doing badly, but there is probably always somebody doing worse than them. I honestly consider one of my privileges to be a US citizen. What if somehow I was born in another country where things are honestly just going awfully? Somebody may have it better than you, but someone out there also has it worse. In that way, we are all equal. People want some equality? There it is. Everyone has something that somebody doesn't, even if only for a short while.


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## Leen (Feb 27, 2017)

Raskell said:


> Okay. How are women not treated fairly?



You could start with opening up a gender studies textbook. I always encourage anyone to take a good gender studies course. 

Some examples of many:
Women in sports --> sexisms-r-us
Women in leadership positions --> not paid as much as their equal male counterparts
Women and reproductive rights --> government gets to tell us what we can/can't do with our uteri
Women and the military --> we're not allowed certain careers, rape cases

Just some examples of many.


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## LambdaDelta (Feb 27, 2017)

Raskell said:


> I'm apart of the LGBTQ community



there's been numerous recent cases proving that people in the lgb spectrum will readily throw the trans community under the bus. so sorry, but that really isn't a card you can play

(also, a part*)


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## Corrie (Feb 27, 2017)

Petey Piranha said:


> I'm sorry, but this comment is just really funny to me. I know that the focus of this topic is sex and gender related privileges, but does nobody else ever think about the privileges that they do have? Maybe a trans person doesn't have the privileges of a non-trans, but they might have a certain race privilege, or some sort of privilege given to them based on the country they live in, or their working class. Does nobody ever stop these days and remember that they may be doing badly, but there is probably always somebody doing worse than them. I honestly consider one of my privileges to be a US citizen. What if somehow I was born in another country where things are honestly just going awfully? Somebody may have it better than you, but someone out there also has it worse. In that way, we are all equal. People want some equality? There it is. Everyone has something that somebody doesn't, even if only for a short while.



You're right and that in itself is wrong as well. In my eyes everyone should be treated fairly. Life isn't fair, I know that but at the same time, that doesn't mean people should suffer. We're all trying to fix problems like world hunger, endless war, etc but it's hard to do everything. You gotta take stuff one step at a time. 

The bathroom issue, to me, is similar to whites vs blacks when it came to buses or water fountains to drink out of. It's such minor stuff that shouldn't even be a thing. Let people go take a dump, who cares what bathroom they use? Is it really a big deal? Let them use what bathroom they want.


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## N a t (Feb 27, 2017)

Corrie said:


> You're right and that in itself is wrong as well. In my eyes everyone should be treated fairly. Life isn't fair, I know that but at the same time, that doesn't mean people should suffer. We're all trying to fix problems like world hunger, endless war, etc but it's hard to do everything. You gotta take stuff one step at a time.
> 
> The bathroom issue, to me, is similar to whites vs blacks when it came to buses or water fountains to drink out of. It's such minor stuff that shouldn't even be a thing. Let people go take a dump, who cares what bathroom they use? Is it really a big deal? Let them use what bathroom they want.



I get that this whole issue is silly, and people need to chill. But that's also what I'm trying to say. People need to chill, sometimes, at least. I feel like a ton of things are taken so far out of proportion these days. For example, when people post on the internet about their problems. ON THE INTERNET. That alone is a privilege. Like, it really sucks if you're being treated poorly for one reason or another, and it's unfair, but some people are homeless and don't get to complain about their jobs and their lives on the internet because that's something they don't have access to. I just feel like people are asking and asking and asking, but never saying thank you for what they already have.


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## Leen (Feb 27, 2017)

Petey Piranha said:


> I get that this whole issue is silly, and people need to chill. But that's also what I'm trying to say. People need to chill, sometimes, at least. I feel like a ton of things are taken so far out of proportion these days. For example, when people post on the internet about their problems. ON THE INTERNET. That alone is a privilege. Like, it really sucks if you're being treated poorly for one reason or another, and it's unfair, but some people are homeless and don't get to complain about their jobs and their lives on the internet because that's something they don't have access to. I just feel like people are asking and asking and asking, but never saying thank you for what they already have.



I completely agree that people should definitely be grateful for what they have, however, I don't think people should have to settle for inequality and injustice just because they have other privileges in life.


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## N a t (Feb 27, 2017)

I get really mad at myself sometimes, because I'm complaining about something like my weight, or my friends, or my family, or school. But so many people don't have enough food that they should even worry about being overweight, some people don't have a family or friends to make them sad or mad, some people never get to go to school. Sometimes I have to remind myself about those things.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Leen said:


> I completely agree that people should definitely be grateful for what they have, however, I don't think people should have to settle for inequality and injustice just because they have other privileges in life.



No one has to settle, but some people just take things too far. There will always be bad eggs in the bunch that ruin the whole thing. It's happened with feminism, and I honestly think it's happening with trans rights and the gay community as well. You get a few wackos posting things on the internet or starting violent and destructive riots, and the whole movement loses support from the outside. I have never seen a single pleasant thing about feminism on the internet, without searching for it, but out of the corner of my eye is always some insult or joke towards feminists while I'm browsing the internet. And I do mean that figuratively.

- - - Post Merge - - -

There isn't, like, some feminist meme constantly on my screen at all times lol. But, I see more bad than good.


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## Envy (Feb 27, 2017)

Petey Piranha said:


> I'm sorry, but this comment is just really funny to me. I know that the focus of this topic is sex and gender related privileges, but does nobody else ever think about the privileges that they do have? Maybe a trans person doesn't have the privileges of a non-trans, but they might have a certain race privilege, or some sort of privilege given to them based on the country they live in, or their working class. Does nobody ever stop these days and remember that they may be doing badly, but there is probably always somebody doing worse than them. I honestly consider one of my privileges to be a US citizen. What if somehow I was born in another country where things are honestly just going awfully? Somebody may have it better than you, but someone out there also has it worse. In that way, we are all equal. People want some equality? There it is. Everyone has something that somebody doesn't, even if only for a short while.



Okay... But this is about a very real issue. Transgender people, in many cases, can not go to the bathroom while out in public and have to plan what they eat and drink before they have to go out for long periods of time. Some don't drink/eat enough because of this, and it makes them sick. Even when they try to avoid eating/drinking, it still happens sometimes, and they hold it in. That can cause medical issues.

Also from what I understand, the hormones that transgender people take (I know this applies to transwomen, I don't know about transmen. Maybe someone who is trans or someone is knowledgeable can clarify?) can make them have to go to the bathroom many more times than the average person, which puts them in a really bad spot when they're at a school or workplace that won't work with them.

So please, lets not take focus off of a very real issue because "some people might have it worse". This isn't about who has it worst. This is an issue that needs to be dealt with, because some people are suffering and they don't need to be.


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## seliph (Feb 27, 2017)

Leen said:


> Envy, dino, gyro, forestyne, visibleghost: If I could clap any louder, I'd get thrown out of this bar that I'm at lmao. I WISH I knew y'all in RL. You sound like some cool peeps.


Late as hell but Im luv u too <3



LambdaDelta said:


> there's been numerous recent cases proving that people in the lgb spectrum will readily throw the trans community under the bus. so sorry, but that really isn't a card you can play
> 
> (also, a part*)



That and LGB people also throw each other under the bus, constantly. Gay guys and lesbians can easily still be homophobic just as poc can be racist against their own race. And then theres LG people hating bi people and bi people being homophobic right back... LGBT people don't have some free pass to being homophobic/transphobic/etc.

---

Petey Piranha I'm not gonna eeny meeny miny mo a post of yours to quote but if we all sat and went "Well people have it worse" literally nothing would get done about anything ever.

Like yeah I have BPD and severe depression but hey someone's probably about to get murdered so let's cut all research on mental health!


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## N a t (Feb 27, 2017)

Envy said:


> Okay... But this is about a very real issue. Transgender people, in many cases, can not go to the bathroom while out in public and have to plan what they eat and drink before they have to go out for long periods of time. Some don't drink/eat enough because of this, and it makes them sick. Even when they try to avoid eating/drinking, it still happens sometimes, and they hold it in. That can cause medical issues.
> 
> Also from what I understand, the hormones that transgender people take (I know this applies to transwomen, I don't know about transmen. Maybe someone who is trans or someone is knowledgeable can clarify?) can make them have to go to the bathroom many more times than the average person, which puts them in a really bad spot when they're at a school or workplace that won't work with them.
> 
> So please, lets not take focus off of a very real issue because "some people might have it worse". This isn't about who has it worst. This is an issue that needs to be dealt with, because some people are suffering and they don't need to be.



And those people who might have it worse aren't suffering? Do they not have an issue to be dealt with? I just feel like these topics are being glorified.

- - - Post Merge - - -

I'm not saying that this isn't important at all, but I'm tired of everything revolving around like, 2 or 3 issues in particular, that aren't nearly as bad as others. What's being done about other major issues, possibly even more important issues, if these are the focus?

- - - Post Merge - - -



gyro said:


> ---
> 
> Petey Piranha I'm not gonna eeny meeny miny mo a post of yours to quote but if we all sat and went "Well people have it worse" literally nothing would get done about anything ever.
> 
> Like yeah I have BPD and severe depression but hey someone's probably about to get murdered so let's cut all research on mental health!



Again, I just want people to chill out and think about something else every once in a while. I'm not saying we have to use what I said as an excuse to do nothing about current issues, but let it give you some damn peace of mind because I feel like everyone is going nuts these days.


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## Envy (Feb 27, 2017)

Petey Piranha said:


> And those people who might have it worse aren't suffering? Do they not have an issue to be dealt with? I just feel like these topics are being glorified.



Then bring forth all of these issues and ways to address them. I don't mean in this topic, because that's rude. We have a real issue here that we're talking about because it needs to be addressed.

The point of this discussion is NOT to say that there are not other issues for people in this world that need to be addressed. There sure as heck are, but please don't come around here and devalue the importance of our concern just because of that. 

And... Let me just say, if you want to point fingers, point them at Trump, who decided to make this even more of an issue again.


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## Haskell (Feb 27, 2017)

Envy said:


> Then bring forth all of these issues and ways to address them. I don't mean in this topic, because that's rude. We have a real issue here that we're talking about because it needs to be addressed.
> 
> The point of this discussion is NOT to say that there are not other issues for people in this world that need to be addressed. There sure as heck are, but please don't come around here and devalue the importance of our concern just because of that.
> 
> And... Let me just say, if you want to point fingers, point them at *Trump*, who decided to make this even more of an issue again.



You mean the media and the left?

Trump was just following what should be followed... power to the states.


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## seliph (Feb 27, 2017)

Petey Piranha said:


> And those people who might have it worse aren't suffering? Do they not have an issue to be dealt with? I just feel like these topics are being glorified.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



How dare citizens of the United States want to deal with the flaws of their country that directly affect them.

Bringing light to a current issue at hand and informing others about it is not overshadowing any others and it sure as _hell_ isn't glorifying anything. There are countless charities to countries that need help, and it's not like they're being ignored. Multiple issues can be handled at the same time. However the US can't be every other country's giant grandma dumping those strawberry candies at everybody, it needs to take care of itself too.

As for "chilling out"? I know people think this is just about bathrooms but as I and others have said before, the god damn _lives_ of trans people are at stake. This isn't something that can be brushed aside just because other countries have their issues too. People are going nuts because people are constantly brushing aside LGBTQ issues and other minority issues as a whole. Maybe if people would stop driving a bus over us and help us when we need it, we'd chill out a bit.

- - - Post Merge - - -



Raskell said:


> You mean the media and the left?
> 
> Trump was just following what should be followed... power to the states.



The media and the left didn't prevent trans people from taking a piss


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## N a t (Feb 27, 2017)

Envy said:


> Then bring forth all of these issues and ways to address them. I don't mean in this topic, because that's rude. We have a real issue here that we're talking about because it needs to be addressed.
> 
> The point of this discussion is NOT to say that there are not other issues for people in this world that need to be addressed. There sure as heck are, but please don't come around here and devalue the importance of our concern just because of that.
> 
> And... Let me just say, if you want to point fingers, point them at Trump, who decided to make this even more of an issue again.



I agree that I've gotten off topic, but I'm not trying to devalue, I'm trying to reason. I'm not asking you to forget what you're fighting for, or to stop being serious. I'm asking for a day off, so to speak. And I don't wanna hear anyone retort with,"I can't take a day off from this or that", because there is a way and a time and a place, just make it happen like you do everything else on every day when you're fighting, and working, and surviving. I don't think it's as difficult as people make it seem...


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## seliph (Feb 27, 2017)

Petey Piranha said:


> I agree that I've gotten off topic, but I'm not trying to devalue, I'm trying to reason. I'm not asking you to forget what you're fighting for, or to stop being serious. I'm asking for a day off, so to speak. And I don't wanna hear anyone retort with,"I can't take a day off from this or that", because there is a way and a time and a place, just make it happen like you do everything else on every day when you're fighting, and working, and surviving. I don't think it's as difficult as people make it seem...



"I just want a day off" says local who isn't affected by the issue at hand at all


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## N a t (Feb 27, 2017)

gyro said:


> How dare citizens of the United States want to deal with the flaws of their country that directly affect them.
> 
> Bringing light to a current issue at hand and informing others about it is not overshadowing any others and it sure as _hell_ isn't glorifying anything. There are countless charities to countries that need help, and it's not like they're being ignored. Multiple issues can be handled at the same time. However the US can't be every other country's giant grandma dumping those strawberry candies at everybody, it needs to take care of itself too.
> 
> ...



I'm just running in circles with all of you, so I'll probably take my leave soon, and I'm sure you'll all love to see me go. Not trying to play the victim, but I don't think anyone is particularly enjoying my company right now. But as for how I think these issues are being glorified, I honestly see more BLM and LGBTQ issues more than anything else. I know Trans rights isn't either of those, but I see all three of these things all over the internet more than I'm seeing news and posts about terrorism, and wars, and finding the cures for diseases. And I do mean in passing, because to be honest, I'm not hunting for any of these things in particular right now.

- - - Post Merge - - -



gyro said:


> "I just want a day off" says local who isn't affected by the issue at hand at all



Sorry, forgot that I'm a privileged piece of cis scum. According to most anyone who isn't cis.


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## seliph (Feb 27, 2017)

Petey Piranha said:


> But as for how I think these issues are being glorified, I honestly see more BLM and LGBTQ issues more than anything else.



Yeah! You know why? Because black people and lgbtq people are constantly attacked by everyday citizens as well as the freaking government itself.



Petey Piranha said:


> I know Trans rights isn't either of those



...... What....... do you think the "T" in LGBT stands for.......

Lesbian Gay Bisexual Tomato


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## Haskell (Feb 27, 2017)

Petey Piranha said:


> I'm just running in circles with all of you, so I'll probably take my leave soon, and I'm sure you'll all love to see me go. Not trying to play the victim, but I don't think anyone is particularly enjoying my company right now. But as for how I think these issues are being glorified, I honestly see more BLM and LGBTQ issues more than anything else. I know Trans rights isn't either of those, but I see all three of these things all over the internet more than I'm seeing news and posts about terrorism, and wars, and finding the cures for diseases. And I do mean in passing, because to be honest, I'm not hunting for any of these things in particular right now.
> 
> - - - Post Merge - - -
> 
> ...



You're not a privileged piece of cis scum. Your opinion is a divine right, as is everyone else's. 

- - - Post Merge - - -



gyro said:


> Yeah! You know why? Because black people and lgbtq people are constantly attacked by everyday citizens as well as the *freaking government itself*.


*Life*, *liberty*, and the *pursuit of happiness*!


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## N a t (Feb 27, 2017)

gyro said:


> Yeah! You know why? Because black people and lgbtq people are constantly attacked by everyday citizens as well as the freaking government itself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm sorry for not thinking clearly, that was foolish of me to make that mistake. I could make excuses for it, but I just clearly was not thinking about the acronym itself. But with that, I give up. I'm tired, and instead of arguing about something that ultimately does nothing but occasionally intrigue me, I have no reason to continue. As if I had any support anyways lol. It was nice to come back and have more than just a short conversation though. Been a while since I was on for this long. Thank you all for the civil debate, and I sincerely hope no one hates me for my lackluster arguments and occasional bigotry, because I don't read people well. Good night.

P.S. Just to make my last post topic related, I'd like to say that despite what you may think I stand for after my many arguments, I agree that everyone should indeed be able to say "ipeefreely".


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## seliph (Feb 28, 2017)

Raskell said:


> *Life*, *liberty*, and the *pursuit of happiness*!



Thank you for not addressing my point at all as always!



Petey Piranha said:


> I'm sorry for not thinking clearly, that was foolish of me to make that mistake. I could make excuses for it, but I just clearly was not thinking about the acronym itself. But with that, I give up. I'm tired, and instead of arguing about something that ultimately does nothing but occasionally intrigue me, I have no reason to continue. As if I had any support anyways lol. It was nice to come back and have more than just a short conversation though. Been a while since I was on for this long. Thank you all for the civil debate, and I sincerely hope no one hates me for my lackluster arguments and occasional bigotry, because I don't read people well. Good night.
> 
> P.S. Just to make my last post topic related, I'd like to say that despite what you may think I stand for after my many arguments, I agree that everyone should indeed be able to say "ipeefreely".



I don't hate ppl on here it'd take way too much energy and I am an exhausted little man


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## visibleghost (Feb 28, 2017)

Petey Piranha said:


> I'm sorry, but this comment is just really funny to me. I know that the focus of this topic is sex and gender related privileges, but does nobody else ever think about the privileges that they do have? Maybe a trans person doesn't have the privileges of a non-trans, but they might have a certain race privilege, or some sort of privilege given to them based on the country they live in, or their working class. Does nobody ever stop these days and remember that they may be doing badly, but there is probably always somebody doing worse than them. I honestly consider one of my privileges to be a US citizen. What if somehow I was born in another country where things are honestly just going awfully? Somebody may have it better than you, but someone out there also has it worse. In that way, we are all equal. People want some equality? There it is. Everyone has something that somebody doesn't, even if only for a short while.


ok but this is about trans issues so people who have privilege over trans people is what we are focusing on.

cis people think it is "not a big deal" or "it's just bathrooms why so people care so much" but that's because they can say that bc it doesnt affect them. transphobia doesnt affect cis people so you all dont have to worry about it. it isnt about other privileges lmao this is about bathrooms not about Imagine If U Were Born In A Country That Kills Lgbt People or w/e




Raskell said:


> I'm apart of the LGBTQ community and I sure am happy to live in this country rather than *any other country*. America is America. I love it, like it, and will live in it. Also you calling women minorities is a false statement. There's more women in the United States than men. They aren't a minority.



ok  but this isnt about your personal opinion on america and just bc youre gay doesnt mean you know abt how every other lgbt person feels. youre a transphobe so stop trying to use the "im lgbt too !!!!!" thing ,, it doesnt work.


anyways idk why people in this thread try to argue that trans ppl dont have it that bad. please show your sources that tell you how no trans women of colour are murdered and how every single trans person is happy and not victims of oppression ........ also raskell please reply to the people who reply to your comments, you are just baiting everyone now. it isnt cool pos either leave or take this seriously bc rn i feel like you are just here to piss people off


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## Alolan_Apples (Feb 28, 2017)

I have one question about the number of genders. When people say there are more than two genders, what other genders are there?


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## xSuperMario64x (Feb 28, 2017)

Apple2012 said:


> I have one question about the number of genders. When people say there are more than two genders, what other genders are there?



Idk but apparently some of these people are mushrooms. They have 20,000 genders.


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## visibleghost (Feb 28, 2017)

Apple2012 said:


> I have one question about the number of genders. When people say there are more than two genders, what other genders are there?



k so i think gender is a lot more complwx than we see it 2day. generally i'd say there are 4 "directions" ur gender can lean towards: male, female, other, none. gender fluid isnt a seperate gender so yh

that's a simplified version but Basically. u could compare it to colors i guess in the aspect that there are more colors than red, yellow and blue even tho they are thw primary colors. no one would say "there are only three colors -_-" because there are so many more, u know? and if u tried to count all colors ever thatd be pretty Hard bc there are like a ton of blues and w/e

also gender is made up to begin with so like im sorry but all genders are imaginary


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## Jake (Feb 28, 2017)

Whilst we can't force anyone to agree with someone else's opinion, can we at least try be respectful and mature and discuss the topic seriously, and refrain from making troll posts like "some ppl classify as mushroom 4 their gender".

Controversial threads seem to be the current hot topic here at TBT, and let me just warn you all that if people can't start being mature in these threads, bans are going to be given out very soon.


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## Alolan_Apples (Feb 28, 2017)

Jake said:


> Whilst we can't force anyone to agree with someone else's opinion, can we at least try be respectful and mature and discuss the topic seriously, and refrain from making troll posts like "some ppl classify as mushroom 4 their gender".
> 
> Controversial threads seem to be the current hot topic here at TBT, and let me just warn you all that if people can't start being mature in these threads, bans are going to be given out very soon.



I will keep in mind.

The purpose of the topic was to discuss what they think of Trump's actions on the bathroom debate. We now care less about what he does in office, but this one was pretty major. The first time Trump did something about the bathroom debate since he took office was when he withdrawn the Department of Justice from challenging against the state of Texas for blocking Obama's executive order that's forcing schools to allow transgender students to use the bathrooms of their gender identity. After that, he reversed the order.

The issue is going to be in the spotlight for a while not just because of Trump's executive order, but also because of an impending Supreme Court case about transgender discrimination from bathrooms.

I actually opposed Obama's executive order on the bathroom issue because what he is failing to respect is states' rights. With the exception of same-sex marriage (which should be legal) and political correctness (which should be outlawed if it's bullying others), I believe all of our current social issues (as well as stuff like Obamacare) should be left up to the states to decide and not the federal government. The thing here is that the 10th amendment says anything not mentioned in the constitution or in the first nine amendments should be left up to the states. But even the bathroom debate shouldn't be left up to the states. In fact, it shouldn't be left up to the law. The bathroom issue is one of these issues like paying for insurance for employers and banning fattening foods that should be decided by businesses and institutions and not politics. Texas is considering on passing a bill banning their cities from forcing schools and businesses to allow transgender people into bathrooms of their gender identity. I think this is a good idea because even city governments shouldn't have control of public bathrooms in all commercial services within the city bounds.

Another reason why I do not agree with the laws forcing transgenders to use bathrooms of their biological sex or laws forcing commercial services to allow transgenders to use bathrooms of their gender identity is because of the downfalls on both sides. If they are forced to allow transgenders into bathrooms of their gender identity, there could be some potential abuse of the system (no, they're not even gonna cross-dress) where they would lie about being transgender, as some would take offense of someone of the opposite sex entering the bathrooms. It's not even about sex crimes. If it were the other way, transgenders would be subject to discrimination by law, which is a very bad idea and unfair.


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## nostalgibra (Feb 28, 2017)

Apple2012 said:


> I have one question about the number of genders. When people say there are more than two genders, what other genders are there?



As far as I know, and someone please correct me if I'm misinformed, any gender identity apart from boy + girl is considered nonbinary (male and female are referred to as the gender "binary", hence the term). Many people feel they don't fit male or female so they identify as agender which is considered nonbinary, and many other people feel they identify as both male and female at different times which is genderfluid, also nonbinary. Gender is very complex and unique to the individual, so of course there will be deviations from the norm/binary. ("deviations" here used without any connotation)


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## visibleghost (Feb 28, 2017)

^ are you okay w/ transphobic laws and regulations

- - - Post Merge - - -

that was 2 apple sry


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## Leen (Feb 28, 2017)

Apple2012 said:


> I have one question about the number of genders. When people say there are more than two genders, what other genders are there?



Apple2012, think about gender as a spectrum. You have one straight horizontal line. One one end of the line, you have femininity, while on the opposite end of that line, you have masculinity. These polar opposites are the extreme of each gender. For example, on the extreme polar end of femininity, you have societal stereotypes like dresses, shaving legs, petite curvature, nurturing, pink, high heels, makeup, etc. On the polar end of masculinity, you have societal stereotypes like strong, leader, sculpted, broad shoulders, pants, rugged, blue, beard, etc. These are the "two genders" that society and mainstream culture tend to identify as the only two genders people are allowed to have. 

But there is everythingggg in between these two polar ends that people can fall on. Obviously, not all women need/want/have to shave their legs, women can be leaders and strong, etc. The answer to your question is infinite really. There is no finite number of genders because gender non-conforming people can fall anywhere in that spectrum. I hope this answers your question and that it makes sense.

Edit: Gender is not the same as biological sex. There are 6 biological karyotype sexes that do not result in fetal death. And then there's inter-sexed individuals. It's more complicated than people think. XY male and XX female may be the common majority, however, these are not the only two sexes possible.


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## Alolan_Apples (Feb 28, 2017)

Leen said:


> There are 6 biological karyotype sexes that do not result in fetal death. And then there's inter-sexed individuals. It's more complicated than people think. XY male and XX female may be the common majority, however, these are not the only two sexes possible.



I was actually about to add that there are 6 karyotype combinations on the 23rd chromosome pair. Usually, the ones with a Y-chromosome turn out to be a male as the ones without a Y-chromosome turn out to be a female. I know which ones they are, which are x, xx, xxx, xy, xxy, and xyy.


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## xSuperMario64x (Feb 28, 2017)

Jake said:


> Whilst we can't force anyone to agree with someone else's opinion, can we at least try be respectful and mature and discuss the topic seriously, and refrain from making troll posts like "some ppl classify as mushroom 4 their gender"..



Well I didn't call them that, though. I was just poking fun at people. They can believe that there are than 2 genders if they want, but I think it's ridiculous, personally.


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## seliph (Feb 28, 2017)

xSuperMario64x said:


> Well I didn't call them that, though. I was just poking fun at people. They can believe that there are than 2 genders if they want, but I think it's ridiculous, personally.



Sorry to break it to ya but gender was a made up thing to begin with. Personal feelings aside.

Also don't make fun of people exploring their gender it's kinda jerkish


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## visibleghost (Feb 28, 2017)

anyways i love being a mentally ill mushroom gender that wont get to use bathrooms if i ever go to the us Lolz. can anyone else relate? 

also gender isnt the same as sex and while i gwt that u like The Chromosones it isnt rly??????? what this is about ??

also i have a question to you who dont feel lile this change is an issue: where do u want trans ppl to pee


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## seliph (Feb 28, 2017)

visibleghost said:


> also i have a question to you who dont feel lile this change is an issue: where do u want trans ppl to pee



They'll never answer this just watch the mess til 1:40, and then a bit from 4:55 onwards

(or the whole video bc it's great and this guy gets annihilated)


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## dino (Feb 28, 2017)

Apple2012 said:


> I actually opposed Obama's executive order on the bathroom issue because what he is failing to respect is states' rights....Texas is considering on passing a bill banning their cities from forcing schools and businesses to allow transgender people into bathrooms of their gender identity. I think this is a good idea because even city governments shouldn't have control of public bathrooms in all commercial services within the city bounds.



basic human rights are literally defined as universal human rights, and that's not up to the whims of states, or more accurately a few singular members of each state that may or may not represent the population of the state.

i am a long term resident and voting constituent of texas, and i just think you should know this bill literally terrifies me and makes me physically ill. i have not voted for it. i will continue to voice my legal, loud, and firm voice against it. the authors of this bill do not represent me or millions of the voting constituency of texas. it's not states rights if it's not supporting the people's of those state's rights. 

also, just btw "A group of global investors with $11 trillion in managed assets told Texas on Tuesday not to enact legislation restricting access to bathrooms for transgender people, saying it is discriminatory and bad for business." just in case you were again worried about "the cost" of things. 




Apple2012 said:


> ...allow transgenders to use bathrooms...



several people on this thread have repeatedly explained how this terminology is hurtful and harmful. i'm not understanding why you're continuing to use it. it makes people feel very unsafe and does not show respect or that you are listening to other people on this thread.


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## Soda Fox (Feb 28, 2017)

I'm not going to read all the pages that have happened since I last cared, but I wanted to say that, while I personally don't give a damn about where people do their bathroom business, I'm leaning more and more toward the separation by way of scientific/birthed sex view.

Bathrooms aren't only for peeing in.  They're for people to escape the opposite sex if they're feeling threatened.  Why should 50% of the population give up that means of escape so .3% can not get attacked, especially if the argument is they get attacked "everywhere" anyway?


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## seliph (Feb 28, 2017)

Soda Fox said:


> I'm not going to read all the pages that have happened since I last cared, but I wanted to say that, while I personally don't give a damn about where people do their bathroom business, I'm leaning more and more toward the separation by way of scientific/birthed sex view.
> 
> Bathrooms aren't only for peeing in.  They're for people to escape the opposite sex if they're feeling threatened.  Why should 50% of the population give up that means of escape so .3% can not get attacked, especially if the argument is they get attacked "everywhere" anyway?



If you saw a trans woman (assuming it's even possible to tell a lot of the time. news flash, you've probably shared the washroom with several in your life) in the same washroom as you and went "Oh god, another _man_" then _you_ are the problem. A trans woman is a woman. I don't care how she looks.

If you see someone like Laverne Cox or Carmen Carrera and think "They belong in the men's room" then, again, that's a problem with you.

Aside from that..... who the _hell_ is gonna check what someone's got in their pants? If they've even got what you think they've got in their pants? Genital reconstructive surgery is a thing that many trans people have gone through. And say that homehow, everyone with penises agrees to go to the mens' room and everyone with a vagina uses the womens'. Some effeminate pre-op trans man who's been on hrt for 2 years is just going to be abiding by the law and yall are gonna chase him out because you think he's a trans woman trying to "invade your spaces" when really he's just matching his whatnots with the bathroom sign because your dumb oompa loompa of a president told him to.

There are _so_ many loopholes in the "let's go by genitals" mindset. It's pointless.


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## Red Cat (Feb 28, 2017)

Soda Fox said:


> I'm not going to read all the pages that have happened since I last cared, but I wanted to say that, while I personally don't give a damn about where people do their bathroom business, I'm leaning more and more toward the separation by way of scientific/birthed sex view.
> 
> Bathrooms aren't only for peeing in.  They're for people to escape the opposite sex if they're feeling threatened.  Why should 50% of the population give up that means of escape so .3% can not get attacked, especially if the argument is they get attacked "everywhere" anyway?



50% of the population is not giving up that "means of escape" by allowing people who are truly transgender to use their preferred bathroom, and bathrooms are not a mean of escape in the first place. About 99% of public restrooms I've seen are unlocked which means anyone of any sex can just walk right in and start harassing people if they want. Yeah people in there might scream, but that doesn't mean anyone is coming to their rescue. If you really want to escape someone harassing you, the best place to go is somewhere very public, not go into a private area where someone might be able to do whatever they want to you and no one else can see. Until there is some kind of force-field technology around restroom doors to stop the opposite sex from getting in, the idea of a restroom being an escape plan is totally absurd.


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## Dogemon (Feb 28, 2017)

Soda Fox said:


> I'm not going to read all the pages that have happened since I last cared, but I wanted to say that, while I personally don't give a damn about where people do their bathroom business, I'm leaning more and more toward the separation by way of scientific/birthed sex view.
> 
> Bathrooms aren't only for peeing in.  They're for people to escape the opposite sex if they're feeling threatened.  Why should 50% of the population give up that means of escape so .3% can not get attacked, especially if the argument is they get attacked "everywhere" anyway?



So not only are you blatantly disregarding what other people have to say before inserting your own opinion, but you assume that so little of the population is trans AND that people can't escape unless all their naughty bits match? Seems a bit unfair to the counter-viewpoint...


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## seliph (Mar 1, 2017)

Something I forgot to add @ Soda Fox: If you want people to go to the washroom that matches what they were announced as at birth, that means you would want Chaz Bono, Buck Angel, Aydian Dowling, and Ian Harvie in the women's washroom. However, you go there as a "means to escape the opposite sex" or whatever the hell. Would you feel comfortable with these big, grown, adult men in the same washroom as you?


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## Soda Fox (Mar 1, 2017)

Red Cat said:


> 50% of the population is not giving up that "means of escape" by allowing people who are truly transgender to use their preferred bathroom, and bathrooms are not a mean of escape in the first place. About 99% of public restrooms I've seen are unlocked which means anyone of any sex can just walk right in and start harassing people if they want. Yeah people in there might scream, but that doesn't mean anyone is coming to their rescue. If you really want to escape someone harassing you, the best place to go is somewhere very public, not go into a private area where someone might be able to do whatever they want to you and no one else can see. Until there is some kind of force-field technology around restroom doors to stop the opposite sex from getting in, the idea of a restroom being an escape plan is totally absurd.



Right?  Unless we make it so an obvious girl/guy can go into the opposite gendered bathroom because "they're obviously not cis omg stop oppressing me" to chase after whoever their target is for the night.  When it's left up to feelings, who is to say what is right?  At least leaving it to biology gives a clear cut answer to the question.  And yeah, obviously I don't look at people's junk in the bathroom, but if the courts ever get involved in some case, I'd rather rule in favor of with "who logically/scientifically belonged there" vs "who felt like they wanted to go there that day".  Sorry not sorry.


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## seliph (Mar 1, 2017)

Soda Fox said:


> "who logically/scientifically belonged there" vs "who felt like they wanted to go there that day".  Sorry not sorry.



Hey also sorry for asking so many questions but: What about the (cis) male rapists who prey on boys/men and the (cis) female rapists who prey on women/girls?


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## Red Cat (Mar 1, 2017)

Soda Fox said:


> Right?  Unless we make it so an obvious girl/guy can go into the opposite gendered bathroom because "they're obviously not cis omg stop oppressing me" to chase after whoever their target is for the night.  When it's left up to feelings, who is to say what is right?  At least leaving it to biology gives a clear cut answer to the question.  And yeah, obviously I don't look at people's junk in the bathroom, but if the courts ever get involved in some case, I'd rather rule in favor of with "who logically/scientifically belonged there" vs "who felt like they wanted to go there that day".  Sorry not sorry.



You still haven't answered how the sign on the door is going to stop said person from chasing said target into the restroom. If anything, gendered restrooms make it easier for a man pursuing a woman since he knows he won't have to deal with other muscular men in there.


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## Dogemon (Mar 1, 2017)

Soda Fox said:


> Right?  Unless we make it so an obvious girl/guy can go into the opposite gendered bathroom because "they're obviously not cis omg stop oppressing me" to chase after whoever their target is for the night.  When it's left up to feelings, who is to say what is right?  At least leaving it to biology gives a clear cut answer to the question.  And yeah, obviously I don't look at people's junk in the bathroom, but if the courts ever get involved in some case, I'd rather rule in favor of with "who logically/scientifically belonged there" vs "who felt like they wanted to go there that day".  Sorry not sorry.



Logic is entirely subjective. If someone feels attacked by someone else having different genitals being around them, perhaps they might spend more time reflecting on why the bodies of others are so very much their business.


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## seliph (Mar 1, 2017)

Red Cat said:


> If anything, gendered restrooms make it easier for a man pursuing a woman since he knows he won't have to deal with other muscular men in there.



*!!!!!!!!!!*

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHY HASN'T THIS BEEN BROUGHT UP OR THUNK UP BEFORE INCLUDING BY ME IT'S SO OBVIOUS. So much for "escaping the opposite sex" when your door says "hey all the ladies are this way, my pal"


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## Soda Fox (Mar 1, 2017)

Red Cat said:


> You still haven't answered how the sign on the door is going to stop said person from chasing said target into the restroom. If anything, gendered restrooms make it easier for a man pursuing a woman since he knows he won't have to deal with other muscular men in there.



I'm going with clubs, again, because those are the most likely place for this sort of thing to happen.  If the bathroom entrances are in public view, especially if security or bouncers are involved, it's much more likely for a clearly obvious male to be reported going into a female bathroom.  Yeah, doesn't work when no one is watching, but I'm thinking in cases where people are more likely to be under the influence in public with non-intoxicated personnel involved.


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## Red Cat (Mar 1, 2017)

Soda Fox said:


> I'm going with clubs, again, because those are the most likely place for this sort of thing to happen.  If the bathroom entrances are in public view, especially if security or bouncers are involved, it's much more likely for a clearly obvious male to be reported going into a female bathroom.  Yeah, doesn't work when no one is watching, but I'm thinking in cases where people are more likely to be under the influence in public with non-intoxicated personnel involved.



Well, if a club wants to do that for that reason then okay whatever. Public schools and stuff like that are a lot different and Trump's policy just harms transgender people while providing no benefit for anyone else.


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## Alolan_Apples (Mar 1, 2017)

dino said:


> basic human rights are literally defined as universal human rights, and that's not up to the whims of states, or more accurately a few singular members of each state that may or may not represent the population of the state.
> 
> i am a long term resident and voting constituent of texas, and i just think you should know this bill literally terrifies me and makes me physically ill. i have not voted for it. i will continue to voice my legal, loud, and firm voice against it. the authors of this bill do not represent me or millions of the voting constituency of texas. it's not states rights if it's not supporting the people's of those state's rights.



Contrary to what you believe, the right for people to make bathroom choices is not a civil rights issue. It's not. But they do have the right to use public restrooms. Just fighting for something trivial with lawsuits is not very fair. I do recognize that there are some people that are truly transgender, but for those that chose to be transgender without being raised that way, a lot of people couldn't acknowledge that they are the gender they identify. They would say that they're still male even when they identify as female and vice versa. I wouldn't say that these people are right, but I'm trying to point out that this isn't a civil rights issue like racial segregation and same-sex marriage. Especially if they don't even make up 1% of the population.

If even being neutral or failing to take sides is considered transphobic, then I'm sorry to say, but you're full of bias.

However, I do think that the bullying and harassment of transgender people should stop. However, bullying in general has gotten far out of control that even punishing people for bullying isn't gonna work. Harsh punishment wasn't even considered an option due to emotional sensitivity and insecurity as some would find this unethical. I don't care how sensitive people are this day. They ought to stick with the facts.


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## Dogemon (Mar 1, 2017)

Apple2012 said:


> Contrary to what you believe, the right for people to make bathroom choices is not a civil rights issue. It's not. But they do have the right to use public restrooms. Just fighting for something trivial with lawsuits is not very fair. I do recognize that there are some people that are truly transgender, but for those that chose to be transgender without being raised that way, a lot of people couldn't acknowledge that they are the gender they identify. They would say that they're still male even when they identify as female and vice versa. I wouldn't say that these people are right, but I'm trying to point out that this isn't a civil rights issue like racial segregation and same-sex marriage. Especially if they don't even make up 1% of the population.
> 
> If even being neutral or failing to take sides is considered transphobic, then I'm sorry to say, but you're full of bias.
> 
> However, I do think that the bullying and harassment of transgender people should stop. However, bullying in general has gotten far out of control that even punishing people for bullying isn't gonna work. Harsh punishment wasn't even considered an option due to emotional sensitivity and insecurity as some would find this unethical. I don't care how sensitive people are this day. They ought to stick with the facts.



People do not choose to be trans any more than they choose to be black or white or gay, friend. No one is raised to be trans, in fact, many trans people are RAISED to deal with a body and pronoun that doesn't truly make them happy.


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## forestyne (Mar 1, 2017)

^^ Important.


Gender dysphoria is, believe it or not, a real psychological thing that actually exists (shocking, I know). People don't _choose_ to feel that way. I didn't choose to be bisexual but here I am yo. It's not something you can point at and yell "I DON'T FEEL THE OPPOSITE SEX BUT I WANT TO BE THE OPPOSITE SEX". 

I actually watched a Sr Pelo addressing the "gender war". I recommend you guys check it out.


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## Bowie (Mar 1, 2017)

I'm gay. Just like a trans person, I would not choose to be something that I know I would be risking my safety, reputation, and family for. Of course, we are prideful, but only because we have to.

We shouldn't exist in a world where we have to celebrate the fact we are still surviving. Our ability to live and work in peace with everybody different and the same to us should never have been something to question. That's why "normal" people don't have pride movements. They don't bloody need 'em.


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## Alolan_Apples (Mar 1, 2017)

Dogemon said:


> People do not choose to be trans any more than they choose to be black or white or gay, friend. No one is raised to be trans, in fact, many trans people are RAISED to deal with a body and pronoun that doesn't truly make them happy.



One thing I have to admit is that everything you do, everything you say, and eveything you think, are natural rights, no matter how good or bad something is, how many people think it's good or not, or what the consequences are. The law can't take away natural rights, and you only lose these natural rights when you become physically or mentally incapable of doing them anymore. And yes, there are genetics and conditions you cannot control, which also inhibits some natural rights.

If you want to know where I got the idea that transgender is a choice, I once took an internet personality quiz, and one of the questions had something about transgenderism. The way it was worded made me think that it was a choice. I'm not sure why I thought of it, but I look at both sides to see what they think.

And not to throw the thread off-topic, but whoever added the applesforpotus2020 tag, save your apple tags for site events. Apples have much less interest into politics than holidays and festivals.


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## vel (Mar 1, 2017)

Apple2012 said:


> Contrary to what you believe, the right for people to make bathroom choices is not a civil rights issue. It's not. But they do have the right to use public restrooms. Just fighting for something trivial with lawsuits is not very fair. I do recognize that there are some people that are truly transgender, but for those that chose to be transgender without being raised that way, a lot of people couldn't acknowledge that they are the gender they identify. They would say that they're still male even when they identify as female and vice versa. I wouldn't say that these people are right, but I'm trying to point out that this isn't a civil rights issue like racial segregation and same-sex marriage. Especially if they don't even make up 1% of the population.
> 
> If even being neutral or failing to take sides is considered transphobic, then I'm sorry to say, but you're full of bias.
> 
> However, I do think that the bullying and harassment of transgender people should stop. However, bullying in general has gotten far out of control that even punishing people for bullying isn't gonna work. Harsh punishment wasn't even considered an option due to emotional sensitivity and insecurity as some would find this unethical. I don't care how sensitive people are this day. They ought to stick with the facts.



lemme just.. stop you. for a second. just a second.

so you're saying: 
1) _right for people_ to make bathroom choices is _not a civil rights issue_, but they do have the _right to use public restrooms._

um. do you know what civil rights is? it's "the rights of citizens to political and social freedom and equality." it falls under social freedom, which is dealing with the subject of liberty, and liberty is the freedom to do, think, and speak what you want, and freedom from control, obligation, restriction, etc. the right for people to make bathroom choices IS a civil rights issue. do your research first.

and don't give me that "it's my opinion" crap, because i go by the saying "You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”
Harlan Ellison

2) I do recognize that there are some people that are truly transgender, but for those that chose to be transgender without being raised that way.

_All transgender people are transgender??????_ Raised that way??? What type of **** are you spewing, bro? Literally, there is no difference between truly transgender and transgender, I have no idea what you're trying to say. No one chooses to be transgender. No one chooses to be oppressed and live lives in fear?? No one chooses to have to advocate and fight for their own rights every single day??? And how are you raised transgender?? No one's parents are going to be like "I wanted a son, but you are a daughter. I will treat you like son." And they're still going to be a daughter, since they aren't trans and they don't want to be. Like honestly what.

3) "racial segregation and same-sex marriage."

i'm not even sure what you're trying to talk about at this point. they all fall under the same category lmao. we all want equality and we all want to be identified as what we ARE. No one chooses to be gay, or trans. They just ARE. They never choose it. Same-sex marriage & racial segregation fall under the exact same categories as trans people trying to be recognized as trans, and they should have the exact same rights as someone who isn't. Like, I don't understand why you're separating it.

4) "Especially if they don't even make up 1% of the population."

so you're saying that if they're the minority you shouldn't advocate or care about them? um, they still matter, no matter how small their numbers might be. all humans matter?

5) If even being neutral or failing to take sides is considered transphobic, then I'm sorry to say, but you're full of bias.

if you're against trans people being trans or having rights, yes that's transphobic, not bias. you don't have to advocate them. just accept them as who they are.

6) However, I do think that the bullying and harassment of transgender people should stop. However, bullying in general has gotten far out of control that even punishing people for bullying isn't gonna work. Harsh punishment wasn't even considered an option due to emotional sensitivity and insecurity as some would find this unethical.

ok so first you say "hey, it's not a civil rights issue so why should we care," followed it up with "they choose to be trans and face all this discrimination," continue it on with "it's not the same category (even though it totally is) of the current _real_ issues," added on with "they don't even really matter there aren't many of them anyway," and ended it off with "if i don't agree with trans people being trans, i am not transphobic." and then you say you're an ADVOCATE against the bullying and harassment? 

you literally are the reason why the discrimination and hate against trans people is still a thing. because people like you don't understand it fully, so you sprout out a bunch of info that isn't true without even trying to understand. trans people are harassed because people don't COMPREHEND their issues or them at all. 

thanks


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## Dogemon (Mar 1, 2017)

Apple2012 said:


> One thing I have to admit is that everything you do, everything you say, and eveything you think, are natural rights, no matter how good or bad something is, how many people think it's good or not, or what the consequences are. The law can't take away natural rights, and you only lose these natural rights when you become physically or mentally incapable of doing them anymore. And yes, there are genetics and conditions you cannot control, which also inhibits some natural rights.
> 
> If you want to know where I got the idea that transgender is a choice, I once took an internet personality quiz, and one of the questions had something about transgenderism. The way it was worded made me think that it was a choice. I'm not sure why I thought of it, but I look at both sides to see what they think.



So what you are saying is "Oh one quiz on the internet said a thing and I can't use google to look into it any more than that". Because there are not millions of crappy quizzes on the entire internet. You clearly are not looking at both sides if you cannot even do the research to see how transgender people do not CHOOSE to live a life where they are constantly faced with bs.


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## seliph (Mar 1, 2017)

Just wanna add a few things:

1. the "1% of the population" thing is BS. As is the percentage for LGB people. There are so many closeted people and so many people who just haven't figured themselves out, it's impossible to put a number on it. Not to mention, how did someone get this number? Did they ask every single person on this earth, or just take a poll of some country (which is still inaccurate considering not everyone would take said poll).
So, is the number of trans people on this planet a minorty? Yes. Is it a small number? Yes. But 1% is a lie.

2. People have mentioned this but being trans is not a choice. Actual trans people (not an online test likely made by a cisgender person) will tell you this. Your gender is mental, but it isn't something you decide for yourself. It's something you discover.

3. Being neutral may not directly contribute to transphobia, but as always, along with silence it helps the oppressor and does nothing for the oppressed.



Dogemon said:


> So what you are saying is "Oh one quiz on the internet said a thing and I can't use google to look into it any more than that". Because there are not millions of crappy quizzes on the entire internet. You clearly are not looking at both sides if you cannot even do the research to see how transgender people do not CHOOSE to live a life where they are constantly faced with bs.



An online test told me I'm Princess Jasmine so bow down to me peasants


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## Alolan_Apples (Mar 1, 2017)

Okay, just calm down you guys. I made that post to back up why I think Texas was right that cities shouldn't force businesses to allow transgender people into bathrooms of their gender identity. I never said that to troll people. I had no intentions of making people feel bad for what they are or what they believe. As for the "if even being neutral or failing to take sides part", I mentioned that because I was trying to stand in the middle grounds saying that transgender people shouldn't be forced to use bathrooms of their biological sex, but nobody should be forced to allow them to use bathrooms of their gender identity.


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## seliph (Mar 1, 2017)

Apple2012 said:


> but nobody should be forced to allow them to use bathrooms of their gender identity.



But they should, 'cause it's basic decency to allow people to take a pee.

The female gender (and male, but I feel like this law is attacking trans women more than men) doesn't _belong_ to anyone, let alone some random transphobic cisgender women in a bathroom at Target. It is simply a concept that exists on its own. There's no "their gender identity" in the way that you are using it because trans people have the exact same gender identity as cis people, and it isn't any less _their_ identity than it is a cis person's. Trans people aren't a separate gender, they're men and women and they are just as much men and women as a cis person.

Edit: Btw for others reading, when I say the law is attacking trans women more I mean like, the people who created and are in favour of said law. It's always about "some man going into the women's bathroom".


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## forestyne (Mar 1, 2017)

Apple2012 said:


> If you want to know where I got the idea that transgender is a choice, I once took an internet personality quiz, and one of the questions had something about transgenderism. *The way it was worded made me think that it was a choice.*



So you decided a Buzzfeed quiz was a definitive source of information? Without actually researching it yourself?

An internet quiz told me I am a steak and kidney pie, that doesn't make it true.

Regardless, being transgender is not a choice. Therefore it should be a choice to let them use the bathroom they want to use.


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## Bowie (Mar 1, 2017)

Apple, you've said before on a previous thread (actually, was it this thread?) that you get all your information from random blog posts and forum posts across the Internet with no regard for their source.

Doesn't honestly surprise me that a quiz of all things is where people here, not just Apple, get their information from. If people did their own research there would be so few arguments here over very simple stuff like this.


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## amanda1983 (Mar 1, 2017)

gyro said:


> They'll never answer this just watch the mess til 1:40, and then a bit from 4:55 onwards
> 
> (or the whole video bc it's great and this guy gets annihilated)



Great video, I highly recommend it for anyone who hasn't seen it yet.

---

As for what I think about Trump's decision here, I think it will be judged harshly in the history books - much like those to preserve slavery, segregation, and continue to prevent women from voting (anti-suffragism was a real thing) are today. Which is to say, I think it will be overturned/superseded and trans people will be granted their appropriate human rights (civil rights, if you prefer) sooner or later. I very much hope for sooner.

How horrific it is that such a basic thing is up for heated debate in a first-world country in 2017.


----------



## vel (Mar 1, 2017)

Apple2012 said:


> But nobody should be forced to allow them to use bathrooms of their gender identity.



correct me if i'm wrong but that is pretty transphobic of the store owners. if they identify as what they are, they should be allowed to use that restroom, no questions asked. like null said, trans people ARE the same gender identity as cis people.

so the middle ground is really not plausible; you either are with trans people and you believe they deserve the right to use the restroom they identify with (which shouldn't be a belief, it should be a right), or you think they don't deserve the right. there is no maybe they deserve it and they also don't. i dislike people who talk about other people's rights like it's some sort of poll, it's the matter of rights.


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## forestyne (Mar 1, 2017)

smh why does nobody use sources or have any knowledge other than racism/transphobic/homophobic thoughts that you justify as "a close source" and then backpedal and say it's "an opinion" and pull out your victim thong.


Unrelated but I had a debate earlier on why rehabilitating wild rescue rats can pass on the Seoul virus to pet rats. When I asked this person where they were getting their sources from and why they were being a downright *****, she said "I have a very close source that's not been released to the public". Like *****, we KNOW Seoul is not passed from wild rats. Wild rats don't even carry diseases that can affect humans. Rats didn't carry the ****ing plague. Then some other ***** when on about "it makes me cringe when people rescue wild rats, they're so full of diseases". *NO. NO NO. NO.* _*AWILDRATDESERVESTHESAMECHANCEATLIFEASANYOTHERANIMAL WHYAREWESOQUICKTOTHINKTHEY'REFULLOFDISEASESANDGROSSWHENTHEY'REJUSTLIKEOURDOMESTICATEDRATS*_ It sorta reminds me of all of the debates on here but anyway just ignore this lol


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## Soda Fox (Mar 1, 2017)

Red Cat said:


> Well, if a club wants to do that for that reason then okay whatever. Public schools and stuff like that are a lot different and Trump's policy just harms transgender people while providing no benefit for anyone else.



This is going to be my last post in this thread because, again, I'm honestly past caring. 

Fair point, a club is a private establishment, but privately owned establishments have been forced to change because someone didn't like what they do (like baking a cake for a homosexual couples wedding). If we want to make the rule that publicly traded company and public schools/establishments must oblige by whatever we decide, but privately held companies can choose what they want, then ok. Let's make it consistent and also make it so both sides can have their wish.

About the school bathroom thing, first of all I think kids are too young to really make those decisions. Also until we clear the issue up everywhere, why* (autocorrect so crazy) should we tell kids it's ok to use whatever bathroom/locker room they want when once they reach adulthood we tell them now they need to suck it up and "use the right bathroom"? I think that's just as harmful as making kids use the biological bathroom when they don't think they belong there.

Obama's order came too quickly. It helps kids feel ok for a while but if they reach adulthood and they're told "too bad" then not having the experience in school to learn how to deal with it will only make it harder when they're out of school. If we can agree on something for bathrooms for everyone then we can start working on it for kids.


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## visibleghost (Mar 1, 2017)

gyro said:


> Hey also sorry for asking so many questions but: What about the (cis) male rapists who prey on boys/men and the (cis) female rapists who prey on women/girls?



uwu no we ALL know that the filthy Transsexuals are the problem, these perverted pedophiles are just waiting to attack our children i  public bathrooms. all cis sex offenders you've heard about? all fake. the Transsexual Army is trying to fool our pure, cisgender minds but we know that they're spreading lies! we Normal cis people need to defend ourselves against the trans people who are getting murdered by us. :3
also the feelings of transphobic cis people are more important than the safety and well being of trans people. you know, since we ? The Cis ? are a majority and all (and also because trans people should die because I'm transphobic and this is all really about how I don't want trans people to exist in public. And if they DO go out in public us transphobes have the right to harass them because, um, their existance is hurting my feelings.)

can u all seriously just admit that you hate trans people. it is so annoying when people are being transphobic but then they say that they love The Transgenders but [transphobia]



Apple2012 said:


> Contrary to what you believe, the right for people to make bathroom choices is not a civil rights issue. It's not. But they do have the right to use public restrooms. Just fighting for something trivial with lawsuits is not very fair. I do recognize that there are some people that are truly transgender, but for those that chose to be transgender without being raised that way, a lot of people couldn't acknowledge that they are the gender they identify. They would say that they're still male even when they identify as female and vice versa. I wouldn't say that these people are right, but I'm trying to point out that this isn't a civil rights issue like racial segregation and same-sex marriage. Especially if they don't even make up 1% of the population.
> 
> If even being neutral or failing to take sides is considered transphobic, then I'm sorry to say, but you're full of bias.
> 
> However, I do think that the bullying and harassment of transgender people should stop. However, bullying in general has gotten far out of control that even punishing people for bullying isn't gonna work. Harsh punishment wasn't even considered an option due to emotional sensitivity and insecurity as some would find this unethical. I don't care how sensitive people are this day. They ought to stick with the facts.


WHAT BATHROOM SHOULD WE USE THEN? who will guarantee our safety in the Birth Sex Bathrooms? 
how are trans people being allowed to live, walk around, use the bathroom, do all these normal ****ing things without being stopped by cis people a trivial issue? is it because you're cis that you can think that? Because I, a trans person, think it is extremely important that we get laws and **** that protect us. Because even though this might sound Wild af I do think trans people should be able and allowed to live and exist. crazy, right? 

how is it biased to think that you are transphobic when you don't think it is important to protect trans people and our right to exist in public.

your last paragraph is a ****ing mess so i dont understand everythign (who's sensitive? what facts? insicurity????? no punishment 4 bullying??????  whats going on) but do you want a gold star because you said that you think it is Bad 2 bully trans ppl. im on mobile but if anyones not lazy and wanna give thjs user a gold star please do. i feel like they deserve it :')

- - - Post Merge - - -

also @ any mods thinking about banning me for rude behaviour pls reconsider im just upset about being told people like me dont deserve to exist i think thats a valid reason to not be super happy


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## amanda1983 (Mar 1, 2017)

Soda Fox said:


> This is going to be my last post in this thread because, again, I'm honestly past caring.
> 
> Fair point, a club is a private establishment, but privately owned establishments have been forced to change because someone didn't like what they do (like baking a cake for a homosexual couples wedding). If we want to make the rule that publicly traded company and public schools/establishments must oblige by whatever we decide, but privately held companies can choose what they want, then ok. Let's make it consistent and also make it so both sides can have their wish.
> 
> ...



I don't accept that private businesses should get to decide such things as who may access which "bathroom", that's not a thing in my country at all to my knowledge. I'm sure there are individual businesses run by people who might attempt to make their own rules.. but they'd be utterly ruined if challenged in court. As they should be.

Transgender people have been using the toileting facilities of their choice for as long as human civilisation has *had* choices in facilities. 30 years ago trans men and trans women were do their private business without any permission or lack-thereof from society in general. In 30 years time, I daresay they'll be doing the same thing - only with much better outcomes in terms of quality of life, acceptance (wtf is wrong with some people that an entire segment of our population is still seeking acknowledgement of their right to merely exist???), and a significant decrease in the levels of harrassment, violent crimes, and outright persecution many trans people face on a daily basis.

As I teach the children I work with : people are people. Human rights are human rights for everybody, not just the people we like, or those just like us. Everybody. The end.


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## LambdaDelta (Mar 1, 2017)

gotta love how such a "small" issue has got so many people majestically waving around their flags of willful ignorance and poorly disguised prejudices


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## Alolan_Apples (Mar 1, 2017)

vel said:


> correct me if i'm wrong but that is pretty transphobic of the store owners. if they identify as what they are, they should be allowed to use that restroom, no questions asked. like null said, trans people ARE the same gender identity as cis people.
> 
> so the middle ground is really not plausible; you either are with trans people and you believe they deserve the right to use the restroom they identify with (which shouldn't be a belief, it should be a right), or you think they don't deserve the right. there is no maybe they deserve it and they also don't. i dislike people who talk about other people's rights like it's some sort of poll, it's the matter of rights.



Now this is a problem with today's society. They are unwillingly to compromise. What you just said (no offense btw) sounded like it's a bad thing to take the middle ground, and it implies that "if you're not with the transgender people on the debate, then you are an evil person". People should be willingly to compromise. Instead, people these days would rather take issues as 100/0 or 0/100 instead of 50/50 or even 1/99 and 99/1. I know some stuff are not negotiable, but today's social issues (as well as fiscal issues) are negotiable. A bigger concern than the whole bathroom debate is how divided our nation really is. On every issue, they are unwillingly to compromise. And they attack both each other and anyone who refuses to take sides. The fact that they choose the be this way and continue on their decisions is only gonna contribute to our deeply divided nation.

I try to avoid taking sides by not believing in forcing either way. And now you guys are giving me a negative reputation for standing up for what I believe. I cannot tolerate this. It's okay to believe what you guys believe, but under no exception is it okay to make others feel bad for what they believe.

It's also worth mentioning that there are more important issues than the bathroom debate. It's been mentioned several times this thread. I do remember posting a picture of the bathrooms where toilets are separated into different rooms than stalls. I do think it is a good idea all along. I was also suggesting the same thing for locker rooms and showers. But for now, I do think it should be left up to the businesses to decide on that. But that's not even that major of an issue. It used to be fine until people made a fuss about that.


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## visibleghost (Mar 1, 2017)

transgender rghts are not negotiable we have a right to live and exist in public. if you don't think we should 100% have the same rights as anyone else then guess what !!! you are evil !!

and you know who made a fuss about it? cis people who hate trans pwople :') none of this would be an issue if transphobia didnt exist.

and in myyyy opinion business shouldnt be allowed to discriminate ppl but Yeah Well Okiedokie


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## seliph (Mar 1, 2017)

Soda Fox said:


> I'm honestly past caring...



If you don't care about trans people why do you even think your opinion matters here? Thx for at least admitting you care about clubs more than trans people.

As for kids "being too young": they aren't. Kids can know that they're gay or bi or that they're transgender at very young ages, but especially now that we have resources and knowledge of sexuality and gender. I knew I was gay when I was 13-14ish, but it wasn't the first time that I realized I was attracted to dudes. It was my first time knowing that being gay was indeed a thing and that I'm not broken or something. This isn't a far-fetched thing to happen with gender as well as sexuality.

And you know what? Even if they are too young to fully know, let them figure it out for their damn selves. If a kid is mortified of going to the women's room one month and feels fully comfortable in it the next, who cares? They're just going to take a leak.



Apple2012 said:


> Now this is a problem with today's society. They are unwillingly to compromise. What you just said (no offense btw) sounded like it's a bad thing to take the middle ground, and it implies that "if you're not with the transgender people on the debate, then you are an evil person". People should be willingly to compromise. Instead, people these days would rather take issues as 100/0 or 0/100 instead of 50/50 or even 1/99 and 99/1. I know some stuff are not negotiable, but today's social issues (as well as fiscal issues) are negotiable. A bigger concern than the whole bathroom debate is how divided our nation really is. On every issue, they are unwillingly to compromise. And they attack both each other and anyone who refuses to take sides. The fact that they choose the be this way and continue on their decisions is only gonna contribute to our deeply divided nation.
> 
> I try to avoid taking sides by not believing in forcing either way. And now you guys are giving me a negative reputation for standing up for what I believe. I cannot tolerate this. It's okay to believe what you guys believe, but under no exception is it okay to make others feel bad for what they believe.
> 
> It's also worth mentioning that there are more important issues than the bathroom debate. It's been mentioned several times this thread. I do remember posting a picture of the bathrooms where toilets are separated into different rooms than stalls. I do think it is a good idea all along. I was also suggesting the same thing for locker rooms and showers. But for now, I do think it should be left up to the businesses to decide on that. But that's not even that major of an issue. It used to be fine until people made a fuss about that.



People's freaking _lives_ are not something to "make a compromise" on and "negotiate" but especially not those who already have it like crap. That's... a _really_ disturbing and downright evil-sounding thing to say.

Sure there are "worse issues" but like it's been said several times in here: this is still an issue no matter how unimportant you think it is and it's not something miniscule that should be pushed aside.

As for your reputation, no one can give you a reputation but yourself. If you have a bad reputation now, that's on you. You're the one digging yourself in a hole.

Now since you ignore it when VG asks you maybe I'll try it out: If trans people aren't supposed to pee in the bathroom that matches their gender, where should they pee? This goes to everyone who supports or "doesn't care" about this law btw.


----------



## vel (Mar 1, 2017)

Apple2012 said:


> Now this is a problem with today's society. They are unwillingly to compromise. What you just said (no offense btw) sounded like it's a bad thing to take the middle ground, and it implies that "if you're not with the transgender people on the debate, then you are an evil person". People should be willingly to compromise. Instead, people these days would rather take issues as 100/0 or 0/100 instead of 50/50 or even 1/99 and 99/1. I know some stuff are not negotiable, but today's social issues (as well as fiscal issues) are negotiable. A bigger concern than the whole bathroom debate is how divided our nation really is. On every issue, they are unwillingly to compromise. And they attack both each other and anyone who refuses to take sides. The fact that they choose the be this way and continue on their decisions is only gonna contribute to our deeply divided nation.
> 
> I try to avoid taking sides by not believing in forcing either way. And now you guys are giving me a negative reputation for standing up for what I believe. I cannot tolerate this. It's okay to believe what you guys believe, but under no exception is it okay to make others feel bad for what they believe.
> 
> It's also worth mentioning that there are more important issues than the bathroom debate. It's been mentioned several times this thread. I do remember posting a picture of the bathrooms where toilets are separated into different rooms than stalls. I do think it is a good idea all along. I was also suggesting the same thing for locker rooms and showers. But for now, I do think it should be left up to the businesses to decide on that. But that's not even that major of an issue. It used to be fine until people made a fuss about that.



NO. People's RIGHTS are NOT available to compromise. Even though it's a "little" issue or whatever you think this is, that doesn't make it less of a problem. There is NO 50/50 to someone's rights. Trans people are JUST as human and like cis people, so why the hell are their rights suddenly compromisable? And yes, you proved my point exactly. IF YOU'RE NOT WITH TRANS PEOPLE GAINING RIGHTS THAT THEY DESERVE, YOU ARE TRANSPHOBIC. There is no reason why they don't deserve to use the restroom they identify with just like you and me. NO REASON. If you are AGAINST them using the right restroom, you are transphobic. There is no half and half about that. 

And maybe our nation would be less divided if people like you learn to accept trans people for who they are, just a thought. :^)


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## N a t (Mar 1, 2017)

vel said:


> IF YOU'RE NOT WITH TRANS PEOPLE GAINING RIGHTS THAT THEY DESERVE, YOU ARE TRANSPHOBIC.




Transphobia is a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward transgender or transsexual people, or toward transsexuality. Transphobia can be emotional disgust, fear, anger or discomfort felt or expressed towards people who do not conform to society's gender expectations.

I don't really have any arguments other than that I don't think it's cool to label someone transphobic just because they don't care enough to support the trans movement. I think we should all be able to just get along and just go to the bathroom without fear of harassment or laws, but for the most part I do not care whatsoever. It doesn't effect me. That's just the kind of person I am. If my friends or family were suffering, that would be different, but I find it really hard to care about a bunch of total strangers. I have no feelings about them. It's sad, that they're treated poorly, but I am not sad about it. So, does that make me transphobic too? Because I'm not gonna fight tooth and nail beside a bunch of strangers so they can pee freely, when this has absolutely nothing to do with me? I just think that's a very hasty assumption. You're basically saying that if I don't help trans people fight for their bathroom rights, then I must hate them or dislike them. I'm not angry, or anything like that. If I'm labeled transphobic, oh well. I just think what you said is honestly silly. And of course you weren't directing this comment at me, obviously, but I wanted to share my two cents.


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## Alolan_Apples (Mar 1, 2017)

Petey Piranha said:


> Transphobia is a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward transgender or transsexual people, or toward transsexuality. Transphobia can be emotional disgust, fear, anger or discomfort felt or expressed towards people who do not conform to society's gender expectations.
> 
> I don't really have any arguments other than that I don't think it's cool to label someone transphobic just because they don't care enough to support the trans movement. I think we should all be able to just get along and just go to the bathroom without fear of harassment or laws, but for the most part I do not care whatsoever. It doesn't effect me. That's just the kind of person I am. If my friends or family were suffering, that would be different, but I find it really hard to care about a bunch of total strangers. I have no feelings about them. It's sad, that they're treated poorly, but I am not sad about it. So, does that make me transphobic too? Because I'm not gonna fight tooth and nail beside a bunch of strangers so they can pee freely, when this has absolutely nothing to do with me? I just think that's a very hasty assumption. You're basically saying that if I don't help trans people fight for their bathroom rights, then I must hate them or dislike them. I'm not angry, or anything like that. If I'm labeled transphobic, oh well. I just think what you said is honestly silly. And of course you weren't directing this comment at me, obviously, but I wanted to share my two cents.



I'm actually with you on this. Honestly, if one person can't argue with someone without labeling someone for disagreeing with them (such as racist, misogynist, homophobe, transphobe, nazi, communist, terrorist, fascist etc.), then it's clear that they're being the bully. If you villify one person for having a certain opinion, then you're being the real bully. To me, receiving a negative reputation being your responsibility isn't about what you think. It's what you do that determines your reputation. I'm okay with gyro believing that every place should be forced to allow transgender people to use bathrooms of their identity. Why isn't he okay with me believing the opposite? They're all opinions.

I honestly think there's no point in being on this thread anymore. If it all comes down to namecalling and shaming for what they believe, there shouldn't be any discussion of hot news stories. And this is one of these issues people are rigid to their views.


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## LambdaDelta (Mar 1, 2017)

ok, so now we're supporting low-key transphobia and playing the victim card for it?

cool


also, "it doesn't affect me, so to hell with those it does" is purely a disgustingly hateful mindset to have. so stop pretending otherwise


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## N a t (Mar 1, 2017)

LambdaDelta said:


> ok, so now we're supporting low-key transphobia and playing the victim card for it?
> 
> cool
> 
> ...



Who's pretending though? If it's disgusting, then so be it. And I don't think anyone is supporting transphobia. We're just not fighting it either. Half of us aren't involved. That's it. I don't hate trans people, but it's not like I know any in real life, and I'm not trans either. I have no reason to fight. It just doesn't affect me. I am simply existing, and I am being scolded for living my life. I wasn't calling myself a victim, but I wasn't the one making implications either.

- - - Post Merge - - -

I just don't understand how I'm supporting something, by not supporting something. I am literally doing nothing.


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## seliph (Mar 1, 2017)

Petey Piranha said:


> Transphobia is a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward transgender or transsexual people, or toward transsexuality. Transphobia can be emotional disgust, fear, anger or discomfort felt or expressed towards people who do not conform to society's gender expectations.
> 
> I don't really have any arguments other than that I don't think it's cool to label someone transphobic just because they don't care enough to support the trans movement. I think we should all be able to just get along and just go to the bathroom without fear of harassment or laws, but for the most part I do not care whatsoever. It doesn't effect me. That's just the kind of person I am. If my friends or family were suffering, that would be different, but I find it really hard to care about a bunch of total strangers. I have no feelings about them. It's sad, that they're treated poorly, but I am not sad about it. So, does that make me transphobic too? Because I'm not gonna fight tooth and nail beside a bunch of strangers so they can pee freely, when this has absolutely nothing to do with me? I just think that's a very hasty assumption. You're basically saying that if I don't help trans people fight for their bathroom rights, then I must hate them or dislike them. I'm not angry, or anything like that. If I'm labeled transphobic, oh well. I just think what you said is honestly silly. And of course you weren't directing this comment at me, obviously, but I wanted to share my two cents.



Didn't you say you were done?

Anyways:

First point, cisgender people do not get to decide what is or isn't transphobia. Just like straight people can't decide what is or isn't homophobia.

_"but for the most part I do not care whatsoever. It doesn't effect me. That's just the kind of person I am. If my friends or family were suffering, that would be different, but I find it really hard to care about a bunch of total strangers."_

Cool! Thanks for sharing that you have no sympathy or compassion or empathy for people who are suffering just because you don't know them personally.

_"So, does that make me transphobic too?"_

Even if not, it does make you on transphobes' side and it does make you, you know, kind of a bad and definitely a selfish person.

_"If I'm labeled transphobic, oh well."_

Being labelled a bigot isn't something you should shrug off, it's something that should make you should go "Oh, maybe I should change the way I think and speak about this group of people.



Apple2012 said:


> I'm actually with you on this. Honestly, if one person can't argue with someone without labeling someone for disagreeing with them (such as racist, misogynist, homophobe, transphobe, nazi, communist, terrorist, fascist etc.), then it's clear that they're being the bully. If you villify one person for having a certain opinion, then you're being the real bully. To me, receiving a negative reputation being your responsibility isn't about what you think. It's what you do that determines your reputation. I'm okay with gyro believing that every place should be forced to allow transgender people to use bathrooms of their identity. Why isn't he okay with me believing the opposite? They're all opinions.
> 
> I honestly think there's no point in being on this thread anymore. If it all comes down to namecalling and shaming for what they believe, there shouldn't be any discussion of hot news stories. And this is one of these issues people are rigid to their views.



I've said this before but I'll say it again: _Calling someone any form of bigot is not bullying because these things are not insults._ They are words to define and often criticize your behaviour. If you take them as an insult, there is a high chance you are indeed whatever word they're throwing at you and you need to reflect on yourself.

I'm not okay with you having the opposite "opinion" because you are putting peoples' ****ing _lives_ in danger. How can you (or anyone) sit there and think "My opinion that these people who have done NOTHING wrong to anyone let alone myself deserve to have a more compromised life is just a harmless opinion"? It's disgusting. It's revolting. And I'll ask you again: *Where the hell do you want transgender to pee then?*


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## LambdaDelta (Mar 1, 2017)

Petey Piranha said:


> I don't hate trans people, but it's not like I know any in real life, and I'm not trans either. I have no reason to fight. It just doesn't affect me.



you should not have to know anyone like this to want people to not be treated as sub-human just for existing. this should be a child's level of basic understanding of empathy



Petey Piranha said:


> I am simply existing



wow, lucky you


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## N a t (Mar 1, 2017)

gyro said:


> Didn't you say you were done?
> 
> Anyways:
> 
> ...



I was done with my previous argument. This is a different one. I do have some sympathy, empathy, and compassion. I'm not completely heartless, but it does vary on the situation. This one in particular doesn't bother me as much as others. And I'm pretty sure anytime something is referred to as a phobia, this phobia or whatever triggers is revolved around fear/disgust/dislike and I feel none of those things for trans people. I do not fear, or dislike, or feel disgusted by them whatsoever. They're just more people to me. And while I may be a selfish, cold-hearted, bigot I don't believe I in any way have ever mistreated this particular group of people. It's not like I actively go around and insult them, talk about my dislike of them. I rarely ever talk about them, because it is not of my concern. What is my concern is when people do things like this and accuse me of being some sort of monster because I wanna be selfish sometimes. I'm not sorry I'm not going to go out of my way for someone else this time. I do my share, whether other people know it or not. I'm not sorry I don't do what everyone else wants me to do. I'm not sorry that I chose to spend my time aiding other causes and movements instead of this one. I'm sorry for not being a sheep and doing what everyone else wants to do, because someone says I should, and that it's the right thing.

- - - Post Merge - - -



LambdaDelta said:


> you should not have to know anyone like this to want people to not be treated as sub-human just for existing. this should be a child's level of basic understanding of empathy
> 
> 
> 
> wow, lucky you



I'm not saying that I have to know someone (it simply helps when having emotional ties to someone who is suffering), and like I said before, it's a very sad situation. But I'm not gonna cry about it, or take time out of my days to go advocate something I know little to nothing about. Instead I spend my time trying to advocate other causes. Whether the things I do are more important or not, I'm doing something of my own free will, for the well being of others.


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## Red Cat (Mar 1, 2017)

gyro said:


> First point, cisgender people do not get to decide what is or isn't transphobia. Just like straight people can't decide what is or isn't homophobia.


This isn't entirely true. Just because the LGBT community are the victims of homophobia and trans-phobia doesn't mean they solely get to be judge, jury, and executioner on whether something is homophobic / trans-phobic. That would set a dangerous precedent where groups could choose to define something as discrimination even if it really isn't. If something is really homophobic or trans-phobic, then many (but obviously not all) straight / cis people can recognize that it's wrong and it's discrimination. If people in the LGBT community (and a few SJWs) are literally the only people who are offended by something, then it feeds into the narrative that they're looking for special privileges instead of equal protection.


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## visibleghost (Mar 1, 2017)

ah yes as a simple transgender i can confirm that being called a transphobe is worse than being a victim of transphobia #istandwithcispeople #cispride #eviltransgenders #antisjw #stopthehate



Red Cat said:


> This isn't entirely true. Just because the LGBT community are the victims of homophobia and trans-phobia doesn't mean they solely get to be judge, jury, and executioner on whether something is homophobic / trans-phobic. That would set a dangerous precedent where groups could choose to define something as discrimination even if it really isn't. If something is really homophobic or trans-phobic, then many (but obviously not all) straight / cis people can recognize that it's wrong and it's discrimination. If people in the LGBT community (and a few SJWs) are literally the only people who are offended by something, then it feeds into the narrative that they're looking for special privileges instead of equal protection.


?!?!!??????????????????

are u all 4 real i wanna Die. why the **** would it not be transphobia because cis people didnt find it offensive honestly can you all just stop ???

also to the person w/ the weird username that keeps liking the transphobic posts Speak Up Pls i wanna hear ur opinions too :>


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## LambdaDelta (Mar 1, 2017)

Petey Piranha said:


> What is my concern is when people do things like this and accuse me of being some sort of monster because I wanna be selfish sometimes. I'm not sorry I'm not going to go out of my way for someone else this time. I do my share, whether other people know it or not. I'm not sorry I don't do what everyone else wants me to do. I'm not sorry that I chose to spend my time aiding other causes and movements instead of this one. I'm sorry for not being a sheep and doing what everyone else wants to do, because someone says I should, and that it's the right thing.








Red Cat said:


> If something is really homophobic or trans-phobic, then many (but obviously not all) straight / cis people can recognize that it's wrong and it's discrimination. If people in the LGBT community (and a few SJWs) are literally the only people who are offended by something, then it feeds into the narrative that they're looking for special privileges instead of equal protection.



yo, maybe think about why LGBT/SJW groups are pushing this harder than your average cishet person


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## N a t (Mar 1, 2017)

visibleghost said:


> ah yes as a simple transgender i can confirm that being called a transphobe is worse than being a victim of transphobia



I don't think anyone said anything like this? Obviously being a victim of transphobia is worse, there was no need for the sarcasm. I think anyone with a brain, even if they don't have a heart, knows that the harassment that comes from transphobists (is this even a word?) is bad. I'm fairly certain we were trying to argue what was and was not transphobia.


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## hamster (Mar 1, 2017)

visibleghost said:


> also to the person w/ the weird username that keeps liking the transphobic posts Speak Up Pls i wanna hear ur opinions too :>



I can agree with them and not post here, asshat. They're not transphobic and I'm not going to argue with a bunch of people who can't handle other opinions. Sorry!


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## N a t (Mar 1, 2017)




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## visibleghost (Mar 1, 2017)

also SPECIAL PRIVILEGES AHFIFPVLVK  I want to die just ****ing pull the trigger
how is it SPECIAL PRIVILEGE to want to simply want to be allowed to exist??? to live????? to not be harassed, hated, discriminated, murdered or anything else????? if thats a special privilegd then YEAH i want this Special Privilege over the Cissexuals because i actually like the idea of not having ppl like me killed and bullied to ghe point of suicide because they are alive as trans people AhahaHahHha but yes sure we are all special snowflake sjws who just Like being offended bc it is our hobbies


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## LambdaDelta (Mar 1, 2017)

Ekcriptia said:


> I can agree with them and not post here, asshat. They're not transphobic and I'm not going to argue with a bunch of people who can't handle other opinions. Sorry!



please return to 4chan or wherever it is you came from


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## visibleghost (Mar 1, 2017)

Petey Piranha said:


> I dislike being mislabeled, but I still don't consider myself a victim or to be playing one. I have been harmed in no way.



sorry but not disagreeing with transphobia is transphobia. not "as bad" but still bad. im not trying to make you feel bad about yourself i just want you to understand that you can do or say transphobic things even if you dont mean to and if someone calls u oit on it it is better to think sbout it imstead of going into defense mode bc it usually isnt a personal attack


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## hamster (Mar 1, 2017)

LambdaDelta said:


> please return to 4chan or wherever it is you came from



lol XD go back to tumblr you dumb Sjw!!! lol got em


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## visibleghost (Mar 1, 2017)

Ekcriptia said:


> I can agree with them and not post here, asshat. They're not transphobic and I'm not going to argue with a bunch of people who can't handle other opinions. Sorry!



i can handle opinions
these are transphobic opinions tho
and i dont like those
and ive been rly Patient but Yeah

- - - Post Merge - - -



Petey Piranha said:


> I don't think anyone said anything like this? Obviously being a victim of transphobia is worse, there was no need for the sarcasm. I think anyone with a brain, even if they don't have a heart, knows that the harassment that comes from transphobists (is this even a word?) is bad. I'm fairly certain we were trying to argue what was and was not transphobia.



well how isnt letting trans people exist in public transphobic


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## N a t (Mar 1, 2017)

visibleghost said:


> sorry but not disagreeing with transphobia is transphobia. not "as bad" but still bad. im not trying to make you feel bad about yourself i just want you to understand that you can do or say transphobic things even if you dont mean to and if someone calls u oit on it it is better to think sbout it imstead of going into defense mode bc it usually isnt a personal attack



I don't feel attacked, and I'm not upset about it. I also don't have a problem accepting my flaws. I genuinely feel that I have been mislabeled and I dislike that. Now if someone had said that I did or said something transphobic, I can completely agree with that, but I do not believe I am transphobic, as a person.


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## Red Cat (Mar 1, 2017)

visibleghost said:


> ah yes as a simple transgender i can confirm that being called a transphobe is worse than being a victim of transphobia #istandwithcispeople #cispride #eviltransgenders #antisjw #stopthehate
> 
> 
> ?!?!!??????????????????
> ...



I don't see what was so confusing about my post. If someone commits a crime, the victim or the victim's family doesn't get to be part of the jury in court. It's the same general concept when it comes to determining whether something is sexist, racist, homophobic, etc. The act should be assessed by a third party without a strong connection to either side. That doesn't mean people in the LGBT community can't be part of that discussion, but for example you can't demand to have a panel of 10 gay people and 0 straight people to be the arbitrator of whether something is homophobic. There is another side to the story, and that person's side may be wrong, but that person at least has the right to an unbiased review of the action just like the potential victim does.


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## N a t (Mar 1, 2017)

visibleghost said:


> i can handle opinions
> these are transphobic opinions tho
> and i dont like those
> and ive been rly Patient but Yeah
> ...



I must have missed something. Clearly, opposing the freedom of trans people, is transphobic. I just stated that I didn't see anyone mention something like that, it is very likely that I missed something.


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## LambdaDelta (Mar 1, 2017)

Ekcriptia said:


> lol XD go back to tumblr you dumb Sjw!!! lol got em



I'm locked out of my tumblr and had left the site long before that even happened

try again


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## visibleghost (Mar 1, 2017)

Petey Piranha said:


> I must have missed something. Clearly, opposing the freedom of trans people, is transphobic. I just stated that I didn't see anyone mention something like that, it is very likely that I missed something.



read the previous posts like ten pages ago ok but basically this isnt JUST about bathrooms. it is about puttiing restrictions on trans ppl and or right to exist in public


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## hamster (Mar 1, 2017)

LambdaDelta said:


> I'm locked out of my tumblr and had left the site long before that even happened
> 
> try again



what? i'm just playing with you silly, don't take it personally... i'm making fun of what you said to me if that wasn't clear enough


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## N a t (Mar 1, 2017)

visibleghost said:


> read the previous posts like ten pages ago ok but basically this isnt JUST about bathrooms. it is about puttiing restrictions on trans ppl and or right to exist in public



I'm not entirely sure I want to go digging way deep into the depths of this thread for the posts you're referring too, but I see no reason to not take your word for it. I believe you, and considering the topic at hand, it's extremely relevant.


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## deSPIRIA (Mar 1, 2017)

hey guys


as for the whole issue i don't care enough about something so small. it should have been a minor problem in the first place.


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## Red Cat (Mar 1, 2017)

Ashvenn said:


> as for the whole issue i don't care enough about something so small. it should have been a minor problem in the first place.



It wasn't a problem, but then Trump made it a problem with his stupid executive order. That's why this thread exists.


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## deSPIRIA (Mar 1, 2017)

Red Cat said:


> It wasn't a problem, but then Trump made it a problem with his stupid executive order. That's why this thread exists.


that's true, and i agree with you, but some people are you know, *cough* fighting on this thread over the original poster giving facts and her humble opinion, which is good and all. not like just debating and harsh disagreements, which is fine, but petty insulting, enough so to get a warning or somethin. what did i expect? is it hip and cool to call someone out for having a ****ty username (haha get trolled demi) when this is a kinda serious topic?


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## hamster (Mar 1, 2017)

Ashvenn said:


> that's true, and i agree with you, but some people are you know, *cough* fighting on this thread over the original poster giving facts and her humble opinion, which is good and all. not like just debating and harsh disagreements, which is fine, but petty insulting, enough so to get a warning or somethin. what did i expect? is it hip and cool to call someone out for having a ****ty username (haha get trolled demi) when this is a kinda serious topic?



lol my biggest concern is that i get called out just for liking posts ?????? it's pathetic really
i don't like to involve myself in these threads because i literally get brain hemorrhages from certain people who always try to defend these type of issues


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## visibleghost (Mar 1, 2017)

all i am is a transphobe
why do people have to disrespect me 
i am a human too

- unknown poet

what do u all think about other trans issues? is being trans unnatural? are the cisgenders too kind to trans people? what color was the down with cis bus?


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## seliph (Mar 1, 2017)

Petey Piranha said:


> I'm not entirely sure I want to go digging way deep into the depths of this thread for the posts you're referring too, but I see no reason to not take your word for it. I believe you, and considering the topic at hand, it's extremely relevant.



Honestly if you're not willing to read a thread before jumping in the discussion you probably shouldn't make a post. That way you can avoid all the "This was already addressed"s.



Ekcriptia said:


> lol my biggest concern is that i get called out just for liking posts ?????? it's pathetic really
> i don't like to involve myself in these threads because i literally get brain hemorrhages from certain people who always try to defend these type of issues



Why do you read them then if they give you brain hemorrhages? Do you like sitting on cacti too?


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## visibleghost (Mar 1, 2017)

anyways im gonna stop replying now bc i think this thread will be locked and warnings will be given out and Maybe if i stop posting i wont get banned but who knows
anyways as a final thing: i want trans people to be treated w the same respect and Loev as cis ppl . oke bai


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## Oblivia (Mar 1, 2017)

Since people (yet again) can't seem to have a debate of any kind without using personal attacks and insults despite multiple posted warnings by staff, I'm going to close this for good.  It sucks a bit because I was actually enjoying seeing the different perspectives on this issue and feel as though I could learn a lot from some of you.

I get that a lot of you are passionate about this topic, I really do, and I certainly have things that I care about and am so invested in that I'd fight tooth and nail to defend my viewpoint on them if it came to that.  But keep in mind that this isn't a free venue to do and say whatever you want - it's a forum that has rules that are in place for a good reason, and if you can't debate and argue civilly without breaking said rules, then you simply have to refrain from posting about these things here.  I'd also like to point out that being nasty towards another person is almost always counterproductive when you're trying to argue your opinion - it only serves to piss the other person off and make them less likely to listen to you.  At some point you have to just agree to disagree and walk away before things get ridiculous.

Honestly, there was no reason for things to get this bad.  We don't expect everyone here to always get along or even like one another, but we do expect people to read and follow the rules when posting.  Those of you who were incapable of doing this can expect a warning or infraction later on.


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