False allegations of voter fraud in American elections

[nintendofan85]

My parents are literally convinced that Democrats are being fraudulently elected and are "setting us on a path of dictatorship". As a Democrat myself, obviously I vehemently disagree with them. How would you deal with this, and what are your thoughts, in general, on this matter?

 

[Corrie]

I feel like when it comes to politics, you can't change anyone's mind so arguing or trying to "educate" people is a waste of time and energy.

I agree with you though.

 

[nintendofan85]

I feel like when it comes to politics, you can't change anyone's mind so arguing or trying to "educate" people is a waste of time and energy.

I agree with you though.

Sadly, this is true, and I've learned this very painfully.

At the same time, we can't realize the immense danger that comes with these Republicans like Donald Trump making these lies (most notably, recently, Trump's attorney, Rudy Giuliani, lost his law license because of these lies and frivolous lawsuits). It makes Americans not trust their own election process, and this played into the Capitol building getting stormed on January 6. It's all a blatant effort by the Republican Party to make Joe Biden's presidency appear illegitimate.

First of all, I know Republicans accusing Democrats of doing fraudulent voting is not a new claim for them to make. There were claims of it that Republicans made before the 2020 election, during the two previous elections in 2012 and 2016 (Despite the fact that the GOP won in 2016!). There were even claims like that after the controversial nature of the 2000 election. Hell, Richard Nixon's loss to John F. Kennedy in 1960 led to accusations from Republicans that mayors of major cities who were Democrats, such as Richard J. Daley in Chicago, had manipulated the results into Kennedy's favor. At the same time, it's clearly gained an unprecedented amount of traction in Republican circles following 2020, and not only has it been a factor affecting whether or not Donald Trump gets certain GOP politicians primaried in the upcoming 2022 midterms (even if Trump is no longer president, he still has a large sway on his party, and rumors are about he plans to still run again in 2024 to what would be a non-consecutive term, something no president has tried since Herbert Hoover), but literally with actions such as a pro-Trump group doing an audit on votes in Arizona right now, there has been a clear push of this fraudulent voting narrative-and it's been why so many states have been passing, with the backing of Republican-majority state legislatures, restrictive voter ID laws and other laws to suppress voting.

I know people's minds can't be changed on politics, but the sad truth is that these echo chambers that right-wingers put themselves in not only got our Capitol building stormed with a literal coup d'état attempt, but also it means that getting them to believe facts is damn near impossible.

 

[LadyDestani]

This is definitely one of the most difficult political situations I've seen during my lifetime. Sure, Republicans and Democrats have never agreed on a lot of things, but they could at least be civil a majority of the time and there were some causes that could even bring them together. Now, it's like the gloves are off and no one cares about diplomacy anymore. People are reacting more and more violently to the point where I'm afraid to voice my opinions because I live in an area heavy with Trump supporters and, yes, they scare me. They carry guns and they make sure everyone knows it. Some of the more radical members of my own family scare me right now. I have a cousin who very nearly went to the Trump rally that turned into the attack on the Capitol Building. He would have been a part of that, I'm sure, if he had been able to make it to DC. These are crazy times we are living in.

 

[Millysaurusrexjr]

My dad is ultra conservative, Pro-Trump. Has been for years. My mom literally had to lie to him, give him something to do to keep him from going to the MAGA March that would turn in to the infamous Capitol raid. It's that bad.

If your parents are like him, honestly I don't think anything can be done about it. They are past the point of no return. They are brainwashed, absolutely nothing will convince them otherwise, not even Trump himself! It's just not worth it to debate the matter imo. I hope my dad wakes up some day, he wasn't always like this until he started listening to Mark Levin and Rush Limbaugh on the radio. Such a shame. If your parents bring that stuff up, what I would do is just try to change the subject as fast as possible, or leave the room if that's an option, or just straight up say "I don't want to talk about this".

 

[Red Cat]

(Despite the fact that the GOP won in 2016!)

If Trump supporters could think beyond a first grade level, then they would understand that if Democrats were so great at rigging elections, they would have done it back in 2016. It's amazing that they believe evil mastermind Hillary Clinton was thwarted in her attempts to rig the 2016 election but sleepy Joe somehow pulled off the greatest heist in history in 2020.

It is disturbing that politicians in the U.S. have the ability to basically write the rules for their own elections. It's like letting the Super Bowl champions choose the referees for the next season. It's how authoritarian governments stay in power with fake elections that are completely under the ruling government's control. A functioning democracy needs complete separation between elected officials and election administration. Hopefully courts will intervene otherwise it sets a very bad precedent that elected officials are able to pass whatever laws to they want to keep themselves in power and of course there's no undoing those laws because the politicians that pass them can't be removed from power under the rules they set, which leads to a vicious death spiral for democracy. This is not an overreaction; it has happened this way in many countries around the world and once democracy goes away, it doesn't come back.

 

[nightglow]

My thoughts generally on this matter is that both Republican and Democratic parties have their strings they pull when it comes to elections. Fingers have been pointing at both parties by both parties for a long time. I don't think anyone is trying to set up a dictatorship though. Just remember the people claiming this currently are probably the same people who are ok with "free" public schooling for children to help the over all education level of the country but not for a basic 2 years for adults to assist with not only over all education level of the country but also the workforce. Along with other things of the like that is needed for a changing world and a changing society.

 

[nintendofan85]

My dad is ultra conservative, Pro-Trump. Has been for years. My mom literally had to lie to him, give him something to do to keep him from going to the MAGA March that would turn in to the infamous Capitol raid. It's that bad.

If your parents are like him, honestly I don't think anything can be done about it. They are past the point of no return. They are brainwashed, absolutely nothing will convince them otherwise, not even Trump himself! It's just not worth it to debate the matter imo. I hope my dad wakes up some day, he wasn't always like this until he started listening to Mark Levin and Rush Limbaugh on the radio. Such a shame. If your parents bring that stuff up, what I would do is just try to change the subject as fast as possible, or leave the room if that's an option, or just straight up say "I don't want to talk about this".

Admittedly it's my fault as I was talking about how democratic backsliding is going on in Poland. However, ironically, the current Polish Prime Minister, Mateusz Morawiecki, is actually a far-right populist that Donald Trump actually admired, and yet my mom made the assertion that the Democrats are making us like Poland? A lot of Trumpist points are contradictory.

My parents at least disavow QAnon, but my mom insists that the election audit will "prove Joe Biden was wrongfully elected", which is basically a major QAnon-centric, belief, which only emboldens my concerns.

Post automatically merged: Jun 26, 2021

If Trump supporters could think beyond a first grade level, then they would understand that if Democrats were so great at rigging elections, they would have done it back in 2016. It's amazing that they believe evil mastermind Hillary Clinton was thwarted in her attempts to rig the 2016 election but sleepy Joe somehow pulled off the greatest heist in history in 2020.

It is disturbing that politicians in the U.S. have the ability to basically write the rules for their own elections. It's like letting the Super Bowl champions choose the referees for the next season. It's how authoritarian governments stay in power with fake elections that are completely under the ruling government's control. A functioning democracy needs complete separation between elected officials and election administration. Hopefully courts will intervene otherwise it sets a very bad precedent that elected officials are able to pass whatever laws to they want to keep themselves in power and of course there's no undoing those laws because the politicians that pass them can't be removed from power under the rules they set, which leads to a vicious death spiral for democracy. This is not an overreaction; it has happened this way in many countries around the world and once democracy goes away, it doesn't come back.

I already mentioned the situation in Poland, so this is very true.

I should also add that yeah, it's hard to forget how much of a bogeywoman (and arguably she still is one to them) Hillary Clinton was to the right. She was apparently, to them, capable of killing numerous people (the Clinton body count conspiracy theory), yet she wasn't able to rig an election to win? They also claim Joe Biden did so even though they claim he has dementia...

 

[WaileaNoRei]

My thoughts generally on this matter is that both Republican and Democratic parties have their strings they pull when it comes to elections. Fingers have been pointing at both parties by both parties for a long time. I don't think anyone is trying to set up a dictatorship though. Just remember the people claiming this currently are probably the same people who are ok with "free" public schooling for children to help the over all education level of the country but not for a basic 2 years for adults to assist with not only over all education level of the country but also the workforce. Along with other things of the like that is needed for a changing world and a changing society.

While i respect the view that neither party is perfect - likely no political party in the world is. To the best of my knowledge, no party is regularly pulling strings in any election (by which I mean actual cheating, large scale and election swaying - not messaging or even sketchy political hit pieces or opposition research or whatever they call it), and to do so would be one of the most serious crimes that can be committed against a nation. I have never seen evidence of such direct strings pulling until this last election when the former president did all he could to change the result, which would have destroyed our system of government and installed a dictator.

currently, only one party is attempting to undermine faith in our electoral process based on a complete and utter fabrication, and only one party is enacting laws to erect barriers to make it harder to vote (using the same false claim of voter fraud and taking advantage of the fears they created), and only one party’s supporters attempted to overturn a free and fair election (though they were lied to and misled, they have the same freedom as any of us to look up reliable and accurate information, and ignorance is not an excuse for insurrection).

i don’t quite understand your last point, so apologies if my response doesn’t make sense, but if it is that we should provide more free and equitable education to people beyond high school, then I would fully agree. I think in a country with such enormous wealth, we should be able to provide things like education for those who want it.

I apologize if I seem angry, it truly is not directed at you, but at the people trying to destroy our country to satisfy their own lust for power and inability to cope with social change and progress. (I don’t think you are one of those people, just someone trying to make sense of it all)

Sidenote - we need to get rid of the electoral college. People vote, not states or land, and the election was not even a little close. It would really simplify things.

if politicians want to win elections, they should have to convince the voters to elect them, not rewrite the rules and abuse the system to rig things for themselves, as @Red Cat describes so well above.

 

[nightglow]

While i respect the view that neither party is perfect - likely no political party in the world is. To the best of my knowledge, no party is regularly pulling strings in any election (by which I mean actual cheating, large scale and election swaying - not messaging or even sketchy political hit pieces or opposition research or whatever they call it), and to do so would be one of the most serious crimes that can be committed against a nation. I have never seen evidence of such direct strings pulling until this last election when the former president did all he could to change the result, which would have destroyed our system of government and installed a dictator.

currently, only one party is attempting to undermine faith in our electoral process based on a complete and utter fabrication, and only one party is enacting laws to erect barriers to make it harder to vote (using the same false claim of voter fraud and taking advantage of the fears they created), and only one party’s supporters attempted to overturn a free and fair election (though they were lied to and misled, they have the same freedom as any of us to look up reliable and accurate information, and ignorance is not an excuse for insurrection).

i don’t quite understand your last point, so apologies if my response doesn’t make sense, but if it is that we should provide more free and equitable education to people beyond high school, then I would fully agree. I think in a country with such enormous wealth, we should be able to provide things like education for those who want it.

I apologize if I seem angry, it truly is not directed at you, but at the people trying to destroy our country to satisfy their own lust for power and inability to cope with social change and progress. (I don’t think you are one of those people, just someone trying to make sense of it all)

Sidenote - we need to get rid of the electoral college. People vote, not states or land, and the election was not even a little close. It would really simplify things.

if politicians want to win elections, they should have to convince the voters to elect them, not rewrite the rules and abuse the system to rig things for themselves, as @Red Cat describes so well above.

We're cool. Yeah both parties are guilty of bribing and hand under table with any election/voting circumstance (not just presidential nor just one branch of government) which I consider pulling strings and I also consider cheating/fraud as pulling strings too. I'm addressing all this in a general sense and not any particular time or election. As for undermining the electorial process, false ballots and double voting has been found under both republican and democratic ballots. Not sure that can be held against a party instead of the individuals responsible.

My comment about people thinking that some people are trying to set up a dictatorship may have been a misunderstanding. I was under the impression reading that people where talking current fears. (Some people thinking the democratic party is currently trying to set up a dictatorship). Not the last administration. I just don't think anyone is currently trying to set up a dictatorship. I also don't think the last administration was either, but I did see them supporting chaos, and a complete fall/crumble of structure period. Maybe go as far as anarchy? Which I suppose often end with a dictatorship. I know I was not happy about the Capitol incident and it was very clear and evident then the stance taken.
Anywho republicans that thinking that the democrats right now are trying to create a dictatorship often hold odd views like the education example I gave. And they often resist change and adaptation with a changing world even though many are calling for changes and dismantling.

I very much agree the electoral process needs to be improved.

I'm also looking forward to the libertarian party being on the ballot in the next election.

 

[nintendofan85]

We're cool. Yeah both parties are guilty of bribing and hand under table with any election/voting circumstance (not just presidential nor just one branch of government) which I consider pulling strings and I also consider cheating/fraud as pulling strings too. I'm addressing all this in a general sense and not any particular time or election. As for undermining the electorial process, false ballots and double voting has been found under both republican and democratic ballots. Not sure that can be held against a party instead of the individuals responsible.

My comment about people thinking that some people are trying to set up a dictatorship may have been a misunderstanding. I was under the impression reading that people where talking current fears. (Some people thinking the democratic party is currently trying to set up a dictatorship). Not the last administration. I just don't think anyone is currently trying to set up a dictatorship. I also don't think the last administration was either, but I did see them supporting chaos, and a complete fall/crumble of structure period. Maybe go as far as anarchy? Which I suppose often end with a dictatorship. I know I was not happy about the Capitol incident and it was very clear and evident then the stance taken.
Anywho republicans that thinking that the democrats right now are trying to create a dictatorship often hold odd views like the education example I gave. And they often resist change and adaptation with a changing world even though many are calling for changes and dismantling.

I very much agree the electoral process needs to be improved.

I'm also looking forward to the libertarian party being on the ballot in the next election.

Yes, my mother literally believes Joe Biden is trying to set up a dictatorship.

Post automatically merged: Jun 26, 2021

While i respect the view that neither party is perfect - likely no political party in the world is. To the best of my knowledge, no party is regularly pulling strings in any election (by which I mean actual cheating, large scale and election swaying - not messaging or even sketchy political hit pieces or opposition research or whatever they call it), and to do so would be one of the most serious crimes that can be committed against a nation. I have never seen evidence of such direct strings pulling until this last election when the former president did all he could to change the result, which would have destroyed our system of government and installed a dictator.

currently, only one party is attempting to undermine faith in our electoral process based on a complete and utter fabrication, and only one party is enacting laws to erect barriers to make it harder to vote (using the same false claim of voter fraud and taking advantage of the fears they created), and only one party’s supporters attempted to overturn a free and fair election (though they were lied to and misled, they have the same freedom as any of us to look up reliable and accurate information, and ignorance is not an excuse for insurrection).

i don’t quite understand your last point, so apologies if my response doesn’t make sense, but if it is that we should provide more free and equitable education to people beyond high school, then I would fully agree. I think in a country with such enormous wealth, we should be able to provide things like education for those who want it.

I apologize if I seem angry, it truly is not directed at you, but at the people trying to destroy our country to satisfy their own lust for power and inability to cope with social change and progress. (I don’t think you are one of those people, just someone trying to make sense of it all)

Sidenote - we need to get rid of the electoral college. People vote, not states or land, and the election was not even a little close. It would really simplify things.

if politicians want to win elections, they should have to convince the voters to elect them, not rewrite the rules and abuse the system to rig things for themselves, as @Red Cat describes so well above.

Exactly. The electoral college made the election seem much closer than it actually was.

 

[N e s s]

Exactly. The electoral college made the election seem much closer than it actually was.

It was much closer than it was. Biden only won by like 50,000 votes due to the electoral college. If Arizona and Georgia didn’t flip then it was over.

Anyway yeah, elections need to be better securities and needs to be more accessible to vote, but the bad faith bills being pushed across state governments are obviously being done so that people can hardly vote in certain districts and counties (cough cough Georgia/Texas rn).

 

[Nunnafinga]

The American people wanted Trump out of office.That is why we have elections.The Republicans have some sort of idol worship syndrome with Trump that in the past was only seen in third world counties and fascist states and I think that's part of why they continue to perpetuate this fallacy of voter fraud.

Unfortunately,American politics is following the lead of professional sports in which the players have an utter lack of respect for their opponents and try to cause as much damage as possible without realizing that they could just as easily be the next victims of that sort of attitude.There is no respect for the other side any longer,just hate and anger.

 

[Moritz]

Personally I'm certain that fraud did happen.
But I think both parties did it. And i know im not alone in thinking that as everyone I know irl thinks the same.

So I do think the Democrats cheated. But I think republicans did too. So personally I'm not fussed either way on the topic. Both cheated. One won.

 

[nintendofan85]

Personally I'm certain that fraud did happen.
But I think both parties did it. And i know im not alone in thinking that as everyone I know irl thinks the same.

So I do think the Democrats cheated. But I think republicans did too. So personally I'm not fussed either way on the topic. Both cheated. One won.

How did Democrats cheat though?

 

[Red Cat]

Personally I'm certain that fraud did happen.
But I think both parties did it. And i know im not alone in thinking that as everyone I know irl thinks the same.

So I do think the Democrats cheated. But I think republicans did too. So personally I'm not fussed either way on the topic. Both cheated. One won.

Every election there are always a handful of voter fraud cases, but it's just that: a handful of cases. The number of documented cases of voter fraud in the 2020 election were nowhere remotely close to enough to tip the election one way or the other. Voters decide the outcomes of elections, not political parties. I think it's grossly irresponsible to suggest that it all comes down to whichever party does a better job at cheating. There are tens of thousands of trained professionals and volunteers involved in administering elections safely, securely, and accurately and if there were cases of widespread voter fraud, they would be well known. Most people who spread conspiracy theories about voter fraud have never been involved with election administration at any level; otherwise they would realize there's nothing happening in a smoke-filled room.

 

[WaileaNoRei]

We're cool. Yeah both parties are guilty of bribing and hand under table with any election/voting circumstance (not just presidential nor just one branch of government) which I consider pulling strings and I also consider cheating/fraud as pulling strings too. I'm addressing all this in a general sense and not any particular time or election. As for undermining the electorial process, false ballots and double voting has been found under both republican and democratic ballots. Not sure that can be held against a party instead of the individuals responsible.

My comment about people thinking that some people are trying to set up a dictatorship may have been a misunderstanding. I was under the impression reading that people where talking current fears. (Some people thinking the democratic party is currently trying to set up a dictatorship). Not the last administration. I just don't think anyone is currently trying to set up a dictatorship. I also don't think the last administration was either, but I did see them supporting chaos, and a complete fall/crumble of structure period. Maybe go as far as anarchy? Which I suppose often end with a dictatorship. I know I was not happy about the Capitol incident and it was very clear and evident then the stance taken.
Anywho republicans that thinking that the democrats right now are trying to create a dictatorship often hold odd views like the education example I gave. And they often resist change and adaptation with a changing world even though many are calling for changes and dismantling.

I very much agree the electoral process needs to be improved.

I'm also looking forward to the libertarian party being on the ballot in the next election.

By undermining the electoral process I meant enacting laws restricting the right and ability of people to vote, removing polling locations and ballot drop offs from select cities,
and stripping power from non-partisan election officials and Secretaries of State, in favor of allowing legislations to potentially overturn the results of an election if they don’t like the outcome. There is only one side which is doing these things now. That’s just a fac

voting fraud in the last election and generally is so minimal as to be negligible. It did not effect the outcome of the election.

I see how I misinterpreted your comment about the dictatorship comment, thanks for clarifying!! And I agree it is people who are unwilling to face change and progress.

I am not libertarian at all, but I would love to see them and other more diverse parties on the ballot! Imo ranked choice voting would help with that, but I am not an expert in how we get beyond a two party system, I just know we need to!

Personally I'm certain that fraud did happen.
But I think both parties did it. And i know im not alone in thinking that as everyone I know irl thinks the same.

So I do think the Democrats cheated. But I think republicans did too. So personally I'm not fussed either way on the topic. Both cheated. One won.

People think a lot of things, but I’ve yet to see proof that large scale cheating occurred - other that what happened in plain view in the form of ongoing voter suppression efforts, and lies about the security and validity of elections. I think it is very unlikely given how much scrutiny there is. If I were to see verifiable evidence that would be different. I refuse to submit to this idea that anything is true just because people say so, or think so. There are provable facts and there are rumors and conspiracy theories, and they are not the same. Allegations of voter fraud have been investigated extensively, and never shown that it is wide spread or sways election results, including in 2020.

I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind, but I just have to say something, because this idea that facts don’t exist is tearing my country apart.

 

[nintendofan85]

By undermining the electoral process I meant enacting laws restricting the right and ability of people to vote, removing polling locations and ballot drop offs from select cities,
and stripping power from non-partisan election officials and Secretaries of State, in favor of allowing legislations to potentially overturn the results of an election if they don’t like the outcome. There is only one side which is doing these things now. That’s just a fac

voting fraud in the last election and generally is so minimal as to be negligible. It did not effect the outcome of the election.

I see how I misinterpreted your comment about the dictatorship comment, thanks for clarifying!! And I agree it is people who are unwilling to face change and progress.

I am not libertarian at all, but I would love to see them and other more diverse parties on the ballot! Imo ranked choice voting would help with that, but I am not an expert in how we get beyond a two party system, I just know we need to!




People think a lot of things, but I’ve yet to see proof that large scale cheating occurred - other that what happened in plain view in the form of ongoing voter suppression efforts, and lies about the security and validity of elections. I think it is very unlikely given how much scrutiny there is. If I were to see verifiable evidence that would be different. I refuse to submit to this idea that anything is true just because people say so, or think so. There are provable facts and there are rumors and conspiracy theories, and they are not the same. Allegations of voter fraud have been investigated extensively, and never shown that it is wide spread or sways election results, including in 2020.

I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind, but I just have to say something, because this idea that facts don’t exist is tearing my country apart.

Voter fraud was investigated by the administration of George W. Bush and only 31 cases were found from 1994 to 2004, almost all being convicted felons who voted after being released from jail, a vestige of Jim Crow laws.

 

[Croconaw]

As a disclaimer, I voted for Jo Jorgensen, the one candidate I believed in. I know third parties usually don’t win, but it was nice to vote my conscious, and to cast my vote for someone that I believed to be suited for the job.

I wanted to say my experience at the voting poll, and as crazy as it sounds, this isn’t an exaggeration. I’m a registered Democrat, while my dad is a registered Republican. I received over 10 mail-in ballots, and he only received one. We went to vote in person I was greeted so nicely, and directed me to the voting poll, where I casted my vote. I didn’t request a mail-in ballot.

My dad however… he was told he requested a mail-in ballot, and was told to do a provisional ballot. They sealed his ballot in an envelope, and put it in a bag that already had other sealed ballots in there. I know for a fact that he didn’t request a mail-in ballot. When he checked to see if his vote was counted, it wasn’t.

I don’t have anything against Democrats or Republicans (as a Libertarian sharing views with both sides of the political spectrum), but this seemed a little suspicious to me. The voting poll was in Pennsylvania. I’m trying to see all sides of this, I really am.

 

[Red Cat]

As a disclaimer, I voted for Jo Jorgensen, the one candidate I believed in. I know third parties usually don’t win, but it was nice to vote my conscious, and to cast my vote for someone that I believed to be suited for the job.

I wanted to say my experience at the voting poll, and as crazy as it sounds, this isn’t an exaggeration. I’m a registered Democrat, while my dad is a registered Republican. I received over 10 mail-in ballots, and he only received one. We went to vote in person I was greeted so nicely, and directed me to the voting poll, where I casted my vote. I didn’t request a mail-in ballot.

My dad however… he was told he requested a mail-in ballot, and was told to do a provisional ballot. They sealed his ballot in an envelope, and put it in a bag that already had other sealed ballots in there. I know for a fact that he didn’t request a mail-in ballot. When he checked to see if his vote was counted, it wasn’t.

I don’t have anything against Democrats or Republicans (as a Libertarian sharing views with both sides of the political spectrum), but this seemed a little suspicious to me. The voting poll was in Pennsylvania. I’m trying to see all sides of this, I really am.

Are you sure you received ballots and not applications for a mail-in ballot? In my state you have to fill out an application form first in order to receive an actual ballot which you then have to fill out to have your vote counted. The application form is available online and can be printed by anyone, so it wouldn't be suspicious if people were just mailing application forms (although it would be a waste of money to repeatedly send them out if people aren't returning them). If you received 10 actual ballots, that would suggest something was wrong although I imagine Pennsylvania election officials still check to make sure that no individual submits more than one ballot.

If your father didn't request a mail-in ballot and was told he had, then that probably should be reported to a county/state elections official. It's possible his vote was counted depending on when he checked because they were still waiting to see if a potential mail-in ballot was still on its way. If he checked the day after the election for example, they may have just not got around to counting it yet. Either he did request a mail-in ballot and forgot about it or changed his mind later, or some elections official messed up. I'm sorry if his vote didn't get counted, although I think it's much more likely to be a record-keeping error (that's still not acceptable though) rather than a deliberate attempt to deny him from voting.