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[Ace Marvel]

Ok, first of all, let's remember Mexico, as its own independent nation, was an empire on its own. Mexico DID commit several massacres towards in the Indigenous groups, like the Kiowa, Navajo, Raramuri, Comanche and Apache. Mexico invaded THEIR lands, fought them, murdered them and displaced them. Even so, many of these Indigenous groups were already in peace with Spain, but when Mexico gained its independence, that peace was ended and Mexico began to abuse those cultures. Those cultures are so forgotten that probably most Mexicans aren't even aware of their existence. I am aware that the main objective of Spanish colonization was religious, rather than economic exploitation or domination like British colonization.

Why would the history of our ancestors that come from Europe be not relevant? If it is part of who we are, I think we should learn about it as well as we learn about the Mesoamerican civilizations, (and I said Mesoamerican and not Mexican in general because we don't even learn about the other ones like the Pueblo, Apache, Navajo, Raramuri, Comanche or Huasteco). Not learning anything about our European ancestors would be an attempt to erase a part of our cultural heritage, a part of who we are. And to be fair, history is NOT relevant at all to most Mexicans, not even the Mesoamerican history. And yeah, I'm using the term mestizo because that's what was conceived to be part of the Mexican identity, and I'm not the first one to use it nor the one who made it official.

I never said that the Indigenous cultures in Mesoamerica lived as a unified nation. I know even important empires like the Mayan Empire were divided into several small city-states.

Ok, but you're saying "we're Mexican" as if our ancestors magically appeared on these lands since forever, which is kind of insensitive for all those Indigenous cultures who were invaded in order to colonize these lands. Remember, if you have a certain degree of European in your blood, you cannot deny that heritage, so you are also part of the ones who colonized, settled and invaded. Even more, it is suspected that in average, Mexicans have around 50%-60% of European ancestry, which makes most Mexicans of predominant European ancestry. And as I mentioned before, Mexico singlehandedly committed several invasions and attacks towards the Indigenous groups, mainly in the north, to steal their lands and resources. Some of these attacks were even commanded by president Benito Juárez, a president who always "claimed" to defend the rights of the Indigenous peoples, while that is not true. Juárez also seized several lands from small Indigenous communities. So yeah, Mexico was also the abuser at some point, so it's wrong for it to always play the victim.

And yeah, I agree with you, Mexicans don't even celebrate Indigenous culture as they claim to. Mexicans fail to recognize their Indigenous heritage as well as the European one, so it's very ironic how this happens and no one seeks to even change it. We must value the original peoples of these lands (of which, us, mestizos, don't belong to) and also value the European heritage as well as it's also a very rich heritage that we must protect as well. And also, remember that many of our ancestors from Europe came well after Mexico declared independence. For example, my French ancestors probably arrived in 1830s-1880s, and a part of my Spanish ancestors probably did, too. Actually, it is estimated that in 1821, the year of Mexico's Independence, around 50% of Mexicans were Indigenous, so specially in the next centuries many, many European people moved to Mexico (a lot more than we think) where they settled those lands. Compare that 50% to today's 10%.

I know the Mexican identity was built upon the destruction of a lot of the Mesoamerican culture, but it's our duty as rather privileged settlers (as compared to the margination and discrimination that the Indigenous people suffer) to recognize our privilege and then work together to end racism and discrimination in our country. But the first step would be to recognize that most of your genetic and cultural heritage does not come from this continent, and that you are the descendant and the last remains of colonialism, and once must work to accept that.

The problem here is that you are claiming we don't belong here, but at the same time we don't belong to Europe, and it depends by school but I learn world history during middle and high school, which in reality is only the western world, but you keep pressing that we need to learn our European heritage when in reality, unless you have dual citizenship, the don't give to cents about us, so I ask you if we don't belong here, where do we belong? And again I believe the term mestizo is not correct, if your ancestors arrive at the time, the correct term imo would be criollo.

And let's not talk about the scum that was Benito Juarez, but again not an empire move since their was never an expansion from this, it was an act of dominance that followed through till this day. And I read you but I still believed that you are over simplifying a problem, and in my opinion making almost all population to accept privilege, when more that half of them live in poverty is kinda of a stretch, in that case knowing that you might have European descendants, but not a roof over your head, is not privilege and they won't see it as that.

"Compare that 50% to today's 10%." This argument is not valid, sorry, there were aprox. 7 million Mexicans back then and today we could be closer to 130 million with 17 indigenous Mexicans, and the real boom of population didn't started until 1960 so there is not point in comparison, including the the revolution happened in that time frame. Don't get me wrong, I believe and a know that indigenous people in Mexico are the most marginalized and discriminated groups in the country, but I don't agree with your resolution, at the end of the day you made it clear you wanted share your opinions, and that is fine and I respect that, I'm just sharing mine, but I also believe that this forum is the right place to share this with Mexicans in mind since we are not a lot here. I know what you are talking about but you might want to share some links with more information so people know more about this problem.

Don't go back in history this is happening today, this is a decease our country have, and yes I agree that this needs to change, I just don't think your solution is correct, since it really doesn't attack the roots of the problem. I'm not trying to change your mind or fight you, and you know you won't change mine, so by know we can continue to share our opinions if you want, but I want to make it clear that this is not an attack on you.

I still believe that us Mexicans a construction of our environment, neither European or Indigenous, and the only real solution would be to leave, but where would you put 103 million people?

 

[Xeleron]

The problem here is that you are claiming we don't belong here, but at the same time we don't belong to Europe, and it depends by school but I learn world history during middle and high school, which in reality is only the western world, but you keep pressing that we need to learn our European heritage when in reality, unless you have dual citizenship, the don't give to cents about us, so I ask you if we don't belong here, where do we belong? And again I believe the term mestizo is not correct, if your ancestors arrive at the time, the correct term imo would be criollo.

And let's not talk about the scum that was Benito Juarez, but again not an empire move since their was never an expansion from this, it was an act of dominance that followed through till this day. And I read you but I still believed that you are over simplifying a problem, and in my opinion making almost all population to accept privilege, when more that half of them live in poverty is kinda of a stretch, in that case knowing that you might have European descendants, but not a roof over your head, is not privilege and they won't see it as that.

"Compare that 50% to today's 10%." This argument is not valid, sorry, there were aprox. 7 million Mexicans back then and today we could be closer to 130 million with 17 indigenous Mexicans, and the real boom of population didn't started until 1960 so there is not point in comparison, including the the revolution happened in that time frame. Don't get me wrong, I believe and a know that indigenous people in Mexico are the most marginalized and discriminated groups in the country, but I don't agree with your resolution, at the end of the day you made it clear you wanted share your opinions, and that is fine and I respect that, I'm just sharing mine, but I also believe that this forum is the right place to share this with Mexicans in mind since we are not a lot here. I know what you are talking about but you might want to share some links with more information so people know more about this problem.

Don't go back in history this is happening today, this is a decease our country have, and yes I agree that this needs to change, I just don't think your solution is correct, since it really doesn't attack the roots of the problem. I'm not trying to change your mind or fight you, and you know you won't change mine, so by know we can continue to share our opinions if you want, but I want to make it clear that this is not an attack on you.

I still believe that us Mexicans a construction of our environment, neither European or Indigenous, and the only real solution would be to leave, but where would you put 103 million people?

I don't think he's claiming we don't belong, I think he's saying that people in MX should acknowledge that a big majority of them have European ancestry... at least that's what I interpreted.

I really don't know where y'all went to school, but I went to school in Durango, Dgo, MX and we learned world history... from the whole entire world... not just the American continent or indigenous history. Sure, there was a BIG focus on indigenous history and that's understandable, you need to learn the history of the place you reside but that wasn't the only focus. Of course, world history wasn't incredibly detailed and if conflict showed up, it tended to favor MX. I did go to a private school, but we used books issued by la SEP up until prepa.

I think what it boils down to is that we all are Mexican (at least the 3 of us in this thread, from what I could tell) no one is going to take that away from us, no matter how much they try and see us as something else. We know the culture, heritage, and history, so it is part of our identities, of course, there is always room for improvement and expanding our knowledge. But we need to acknowledge that our ancestors aren't free of guilt, that MX as we know it now, was built on war and the killing of hundreds if not thousands of "natives" (who could also be our ancestors). Heck, this desire to be privileged even runs in families... my mom has several half-siblings and they always looked down on her and her 2 full blooded siblings because my mom and her siblings had more indigenous blood in them than they did .-.

Unfortunately, it's not just MX, many other countries around the world have a similar history... a history that's STILL going on. Todavía hay muchísmos indigenas en las calles de méxico intentando vender comida y/o recuerditos, me han dicho que ellos no se quedan con una gran porción del dieron, que hay gente que se queda con una comisión porque son dueños de ese territorio, claro no puedo comprobar nada de esto pero es algo que creo posible. Es verdad que entre más obscura la tez de alguien menos oportunidades tiene, pero eso está cambiando y espero que siga cambiando, hay que dársele a todos una oportunidad por sus propios méritos no por su color de piel.

I've avoided bringing up history because I'll be honest, it's my weakest subject and while trying to learn American history, I've just lost and forgotten a lot of information, but it's nice see y'all add so much historical context! It really does jog my memory back from when I was in school, so thank you! @ Ace Marvel @Yael

Maybe all I just said is irrelevant since I didn't add any historical facts, but we will never gain anything from dwelling over the past, we need to acknowledge it, accept it, move forward, recognize that mistakes were made, and become better people. It doesn't really matter what label y'all agree on (either mestizo or criollo), what matter is what I think about myself (or what y'all think about yourselves) and I see myself as a Mexican-American woman that acknowledges her ancestors probably weren't great people, but I will NOT be like them. I've gotten stared down many times because of my fair skin as a teenager by people with brown skin as I walk down the streets in MX, but I don't blame them, I'm not saying that their actions are right, but I will never pin it on them. Thank you for coming to my TedTalk (just kidding lol I know this is a serious topic, but I just needed a bit of comedic relief).

 

[Ace Marvel]

I don't think he's claiming we don't belong, I think he's saying that people in MX should acknowledge that a big majority of them have European ancestry... at least that's what I interpreted.

I really don't know where y'all went to school, but I went to school in Durango, Dgo, MX and we learned world history... from the whole entire world... not just the American continent or indigenous history. Sure, there was a BIG focus on indigenous history and that's understandable, you need to learn the history of the place you reside but that wasn't the only focus. Of course, world history wasn't incredibly detailed and if conflict showed up, it tended to favor MX. I did go to a private school, but we used books issued by la SEP up until prepa.

I think what it boils down to is that we all are Mexican (at least the 3 of us in this thread, from what I could tell) no one is going to take that away from us, no matter how much they try and see us as something else. We know the culture, heritage, and history, so it is part of our identities, of course, there is always room for improvement and expanding our knowledge. But we need to acknowledge that our ancestors aren't free of guilt, that MX as we know it now, was built on war and the killing of hundreds if not thousands of "natives" (who could also be our ancestors). Heck, this desire to be privileged even runs in families... my mom has several half-siblings and they always looked down on her and her 2 full blooded siblings because my mom and her siblings had more indigenous blood in them than they did .-.

Unfortunately, it's not just MX, many other countries around the world have a similar history... a history that's STILL going on. Todavía hay muchísmos indigenas en las calles de méxico intentando vender comida y/o recuerditos, me han dicho que ellos no se quedan con una gran porción del dieron, que hay gente que se queda con una comisión porque son dueños de ese territorio, claro no puedo comprobar nada de esto pero es algo que creo posible. Es verdad que entre más obscura la tez de alguien menos oportunidades tiene, pero eso está cambiando y espero que siga cambiando, hay que dársele a todos una oportunidad por sus propios méritos no por su color de piel.

I've avoided bringing up history because I'll be honest, it's my weakest subject and while trying to learn American history, I've just lost and forgotten a lot of information, but it's nice see y'all add so much historical context! It really does jog my memory back from when I was in school, so thank you! @ Ace Marvel @Yael

Maybe all I just said is irrelevant since I didn't add any historical facts, but we will never gain anything from dwelling over the past, we need to acknowledge it, accept it, move forward, recognize that mistakes were made, and become better people. It doesn't really matter what label y'all agree on (either mestizo or criollo), what matter is what I think about myself (or what y'all think about yourselves) and I see myself as a Mexican-American woman that acknowledges her ancestors probably weren't great people, but I will NOT be like them. I've gotten stared down many times because of my fair skin as a teenager by people with brown skin as I walk down the streets in MX, but I don't blame them, I'm not saying that their actions are right, but I will never pin it on them. Thank you for coming to my TedTalk (just kidding lol I know this is a serious topic, but I just needed a bit of comedic relief).

First of all never say something you say is irrelevant, some may not agree with your opinion, but you have every right to share it, and it is as important as everyone else, I am not a history professor or is a subject I truly master, so don't feel you are not adding to this conversation.

What I meant with western world, is that the history we learn is more focused on America and Europe, with just a little of the big cultures of Asia (China, India and Japan) and some History of the Middle East. I went to a private school in the DF (I refuse to call it CDMX) but now I live in Queretaro.

What you said about indigenous people selling their crafts and food, really hits me because Lele, traditional Otomí doll is our state symbol, yet the artisans are not getting better work conditions. Sadly skin color plays a big role in our society, and this is something that needs to change not only in Mexico but in the world.

Acknowledging our ancestry is important yes, but I will still say that I don't feel the world settler apply, since our generation didn't settle anything, and like I said before no es nuestra cruz que tenemos que cargar, Racism is constructed from the education in this country, from the family to our school system, always favoring white skin and more European features, that is sadly the norm.

I don't think say this is not our land is the way, quite the contrary, we need to open paths for indigenous people to make them feel they are part of Mexico, they will never recover their land, the will never be the only habitats of the country, that is just dreaming, so I my opinion what we have to do starts with education reforms, and improving living conditions with better wages to end poverty, the government don't want this, so there is the biggest barrier, and there is were we need to start. Me learning Indigenous languages won't help them get out of this situation, if the country doesn't change, so we need to demand equal treatment, in everything.

At the end of the day I don't see myself as anything but Mexican because that is who I am, I might have Swiss ancestors, Spanish and Mexican too, but I just connect to the latter, not because I don't want to learn about it, but because I have no true relation to those cultures, to the point I think I would by appropriating another culture if I try to be more Spanish or Swiss, I wasn't raise with those cultures so I am not part of them, that is the main point I want to convey.

It doesn't fit right with me saying I'm a settler or a colonizers, when I have never left Mexico and I don't have anywhere else to belong. Like I said I'm not trying to make Yael's remarks less important or contradict them, I can sympathize with some of the things in their post, but I can't agree with the others. Racism is so imbedded in our culture, some believe Mexico is not a racist country.

 

[Xeleron]

First of all never say something you say is irrelevant, some may not agree with your opinion, but you have every right to share it, and it is as important as everyone else, I am not a history professor or is a subject I truly master, so don't feel you are not adding to this conversation.

What I meant with western world, is that the history we learn is more focused on America and Europe, with just a little of the big cultures of Asia (China, India and Japan) and some History of the Middle East. I went to a private school in the DF (I refuse to call it CDMX) but now I live in Queretaro.

What you said about indigenous people selling their crafts and food, really hits me because Lele, traditional Otomí doll is our state symbol, yet the artisans are not getting better work conditions. Sadly skin color plays a big role in our society, and this is something that needs to change not only in Mexico but in the world.

Acknowledging our ancestry is important yes, but I will still say that I don't feel the world settler apply, since our generation didn't settle anything, and like I said before no es nuestra cruz que tenemos que cargar, Racism is constructed from the education in this country, from the family to our school system, always favoring white skin and more European features, that is sadly the norm.

I don't think say this is not our land is the way, quite the contrary, we need to open paths for indigenous people to make them feel they are part of Mexico, they will never recover their land, the will never be the only habitats of the country, that is just dreaming, so I my opinion what we have to do starts with education reforms, and improving living conditions with better wages to end poverty, the government don't want this, so there is the biggest barrier, and there is were we need to start. Me learning Indigenous languages won't help them get out of this situation, if the country doesn't change, so we need to demand equal treatment, in everything.

At the end of the day I don't see myself as anything but Mexican because that is who I am, I might have Swiss ancestors, Spanish and Mexican too, but I just connect to the latter, not because I don't want to learn about it, but because I have no true relation to those cultures, to the point I think I would by appropriating another culture if I try to be more Spanish or Swiss, I wasn't raise with those cultures so I am not part of them, that is the main point I want to convey.

It doesn't fit right with me saying I'm a settler or a colonizers, when I have never left Mexico and I don't have anywhere else to belong. Like I said I'm not trying to make Yael's remarks less important or contradict them, I can sympathize with some of the things in their post, but I can't agree with the others. Racism is so imbedded in our culture, some believe Mexico is not a racist country.

I see what you mean about education, it is true that not much historical detail goes into the countries you mentioned, but I guess there's only so much you can learn. I do somewhat remember learning about well-know historical figures and facts about those countries but that's about it, we never when in too much depth or detail about them.

I've been living abroad, for a while, so it was like 3 year ago that I discovered they had removed and changed the DF to CDMX... I had a hard time wrapping it around my head

It's the same for many other artisans around the world, I remember working at a retail store and selling hand knitted bags from Perú. Mind you, these bags were expensive, well over 100 USD and I HATED selling them, I HATED seeing people happy and excited about them because I knew that whoever knitted that bag was NOT getting the equivalent of 100 USD (more than hate, I was extremely saddened by it).

I agree with you, I do not think I'm a settler, or that my parents, grandparent or even great grandparents are settler but I do acknowledge that I probably had ancestors that were settlers, therefore, making me a descendant of both settlers and natives. I think this whole discussion (part of it) might stem from how people tend to say that Americans have no right to say that the US is their land because they stole it from the natives and the same can be said about Mexico (but this is all just my own speculation).

I think education reforms are a good idea, but I feel like that's a whole different subject. There's a lot that can be improved for the education system in MX. Glad they got rid of "la herencia de plazas" or at least there was talk about getting rid of it. I agree with what you said regarding this topic, unfortunately, corruption is really hard to change or get rid of t.t

You are 100% within your own right to be view yourself as such, and I agree. Like I said, at the end of the day WE ARE Mexican. I would never ever claim I'm a Spaniard, but I do claim I have Spanish ancestry, it's as simple as that for me. A lot of people will claim you are European but remind them that that's just your ancestry, in reality you know nothing about European culture (and I'll be honest, neither do I).

How are you doing? Did you happen to feel any of the aftershocks from the earthquake? I know you're further up north, but I've heard people say they felt the aftershock all the way up to CDMX (DF). I also heard about the possibility of a tsunami

 

[Ace Marvel]

How are you doing? Did you happen to feel any of the aftershocks from the earthquake? I know you're further up north, but I've heard people say they felt the aftershock all the way up to CDMX (DF). I also heard about the possibility of a tsunami

I'm okay thanks for asking, we didn't feel it here.

 

[Sprinkles_penguin]

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[epona]

i can trace my direct lineage back to before the 1100s. i'm 100% irish up until 1169, when my norman ancestors (on my dad's side) invaded
ireland lol

my mom's irish heritage goes back further than that though, so yes i consider myself native

 

[Sprinkles_penguin]

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[Sprinkles_penguin]

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[ReanimatedSorceress]

My heritage is mostly Scottish and some German and Scandinavian. So obviously I am white, and as I live in the United States, am not one of this land's original people. I feel it's irresponsible to not recognize that I benefit from that in many ways. Sometimes recognizing certain societal pivileges can be uncomfortable, and I urge anyone to always find time to sit with that discomfort and understand why it makes them uncomfortable to think about in the first place.

I don't have anything to say about OPs statement, especially since I am white. But I will say that this has been educational and I have appreciated the conversation had here~

 

[Sprinkles_penguin]

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[Hypno KK]

You raise some good points but in the case of very mixed countries it's probably harder. Mixed people who aren't fully assimilated would probably have a harder time fitting in in Europe, plus it's technically still part of their heritage. Of course, people should still keep in mind how they may have benefitted over fully indigenous people.

Cultural assimilation is also a tough subject to tackle, on the one hand, it can bring you advantages, but on the other hand people don't always fully control how much their family has assimilated and why. In some countries that used to be colonies as well as among immigrants in the West there are people who are pretty assimilated because they weren't given much of a choice.

For a lot of the middle ages the Iberian Peninsula was under Muslim control so most Spanish and Portuguese people have ancestors from North Africa and the Middle East, most also have some Italian because of the Roman Empire, other examples of what Portuguese and Spanish have in them are Greek (because of Greek colonies in ancient times), Germanic (because of Visigoths and other Germanic kingdoms), and much more I'm sure.

This is not really accurate. In Portugal, it ended in the 13th century and most of the country had already been taken by then, the bulk of it was in the 12th century. How much people intermixed depended a lot on the time and place as well. It's also a different situation compared to Mexico (for example) because it was long ago enough that whether people had a random ancestor from back then from Nothern Africa doesn't affect how they live now.

 

[Sprinkles_penguin]

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