Do you think free speech is evil?

[Alolan_Apples]

You all may have heard about the terror group called Antifa. Although their name implies that they are against fascism, their acts of violence prove otherwise. If anything, they are no better than the devil, and that?s one of the few factions I see no good and all evil in. Since liberals have defended them and their acts of violence, I created this thread, asking if you think free speech is evil. If you?re going to support or defend them, you might also want to oppose free speech. If you can?t, you can see why they are evil. They are not only attacking Trump supporters and conservatives (including Trump opponents), but they?re also attacking people who support or advocate for free speech.

You can say that they?re only attacking those who use hate speech, but they?ll attack anyone for using or doing anything they consider hate speech, even when it?s not hate speech if you look at an objective viewpoint. Examples include:

- Supporting Donald Trump (obviously)
- Supporting other Republicans or conservative politicians
- Supporting Tucker Carlson, Ben Sharpio, Jordan Peterson, or James Damore
- Mourning Kate Steinle
- Thinking that it?s okay to wear an American flag shirt on Cinco de Mayo (although they haven?t done anything violent about it yet, there was a case when students got suspended from school for doing that)
- Thinking that it?s okay to dress up like anything for Halloween, including other cultures
- Supporting capitalism or opposing socialism
- Opposing political correctness
- Bible verses
- Opposing Barack Obama
- Opposing other Democrats or liberal politicians

Free speech advocates are supporting the right to do everything I listed above, and they?re getting violently assaulted. Of course they won?t speak for racial slurs, racial stereotypes, or support for racial discrimination. Nobody (except the alt-right) supports that. But I don?t see anything wrong with any of the above (maybe except supporting Donald Trump). Antifa is even at the point where they can?t take criticism (think, Andy Ngo).

So here are a few questions to ask:

1. Do you think free speech (or supporting free speech) is evil?
2. What is offensive about everything I listed above (including the Kate Steinle and Halloween ones)?
3. Do you support the violent acts done by Antifa (or think they should have the right to be violent)?

 

[Wildtown]

1. Do you think free speech (or supporting free speech) is evil? no its one of our best rights
2. What is offensive about everything I listed above (including the Kate Steinle and Halloween ones)? nothing
3. Do you support the violent acts done by Antifa (or think they should have the right to be violent)? i dont support antifa because what they are doing is wrong and must be stopped

 

[MasterM64]

As someone who has been a proud American their whole life and is aware of what most of the world deals with (especially how some places are strict about individual freedoms), free speech is the reason why our country became the world's nuclear super power in recent times and was founded in the first place (the Founding Father's did what they did regardless of the possibility of being killed for their treason to the British monarchy). The beauty of free speech is that it allows people of all sides to speak and hear each other out to come up with the best solution(s) possible. What is happening in recent times though is that we are dealing with political correctness that can mask the real truth behind our society's biggest issues and that there are increasingly more people who cannot control themselves (they speak with their emotions instead of thinking things through before acting). If people could be rational and try to have a real conversation with other sides of the argument, our nation would be better off since there is truth to all sides of any given argument. The key though is finding the best solution for all which can only be accomplished with free speech. I also think that our world would be better overall if people started putting themselves in other's shoes before judging or discounting their viewpoints along with how we treat them.

 

[Chris]

Free speech is not evil.

 

[Bcat]

of course not. free speech is a human right imo.

"I Disapprove of What You Say, But I Will Defend to the Death Your Right to Say It"

 

[LadyDestani]

I fully support free speech even if I disagree with what is being said. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

I also would never condone violence. Violence is not the way to spread your message or win others over. In fact, it is more likely to repulse people and turn them against your cause. Differences can only truly be settled through discussion and willingness to see the other person's point of view.

 

[Dim]

I say it’s evil and I have the right to say it because I have free speech.

no I don’t think it’s evil

 

[nintendofan85]

No, it's not. And I think most of us know Antifa is a radical organization anyway.

 

[xSuperMario64x]

Nope. Not being able to freely express your opinion is evil.

 

[visibleghost]

freedom of speech is good but i don't oppose laws that incriminate verbal hate crimes.

also i like how you for some reason think antifa likes liberals

 

[KnoxUK]

The question itself is a oxymoron.

 

[Midoriya]

The question itself is a oxymoron.

Yeah, was going to say this but you beat me to it. Lmao. If we didn't have free speech we wouldn't even be discussing things and having conversations about interests, views, and perspectives in a forum right now. Heck, this thread wouldn't even exist.

 

[LambdaDelta]

free speech is cool, though it's worth noting that 1st amendment free speech laws are about the government restricting speech. elsewhere, if people want to take away your platform, tough ****

 

[demoness]

ohh i see the problem here.

none of these are free speech issues and so this moral high ground claiming that they are doesn't get taken seriously, therefore it must be censorship or a political conspiracy to silence the people looking out for our um, halloween costumes

look, free speech doesn't mean others have to listen or treat you with respect, and it doesn't entitle citizens to decide if what they said is hate speech or not. you're protected from the government pulling a john adams. like say, you're a president and feel like calling people traitors or terrorists and would very much like them to leave the country... you can't make them go bye-bye.

now, to a fascist, behavior that doesn't favor the state or perpetuate nationalism, especially the honorable figure head, well you might as well have committed treason. that kind of authority figure is at least ten times more concerning to me than an organization i'll never encounter

 

[peppy villager]

personally to me, free speech has always been this concept:
"the government cannot arrest for you for what you say. however, free speech doesn't mean people cant call you an a-hole for what you say."

 

[Alolan_Apples]

free speech is cool, though it's worth noting that 1st amendment free speech laws are about the government restricting speech. elsewhere, if people want to take away your platform, tough ****

personally to me, free speech has always been this concept:
"the government cannot arrest for you for what you say. however, free speech doesn't mean people cant call you an a-hole for what you say."

You two are right. Just because we are free to say what we want doesn’t mean we can be mean, rude, offensive, or inappropriate. And just because we are free to do what we want doesn’t mean we can harm others, do what’s immoral, do what’s unethical, or indulge all that. This is why we have standards, and we don’t want people abusing these freedoms. Therefore, businesses, institutions, and other organizations set rules so people can be respectful.

It’s also worth saying that just because you have the right to restrict speech as leader of the organization doesn’t mean you can abuse it. Doing so may not result in your business or organization getting shut down by law, but you won’t be exempt from criticism. Remember when Food Network fired Paula Deen for something she did a long time ago that has nothing to do with their business? That lead to a huge backlash against the channel. Some won’t even watch the new shows (at the time) because of how they treated Paula Deen. Remember when Sarah Huckabee Sanders got kicked out of the Red Hen restaurant because of Trump? It drew criticism from right-wingers. Some were extreme enough to vandalize the restaurant and their ratings. It doesn’t make you any better than whoever is abusing the right, but actions have consequences.

It’s one thing if an organization restricts free speech. What I’m not okay with is Antifa using violence to shut down speech or attacking people for supporting free speech. Their victims aren’t even for fascism or hate speech. Of course, I don’t like organizations abusing the right to restrict. But the question is more on if Antifa is right about being violent. Violence is something I could never tolerate.

 

[Sgt.Groove]

I like free speech, however, if you use violence or impede on someone else's life I believe it has gone too far. Being able to voice your opinions on political issues or important topics if a great thing, using it as a way to harm another however is where I say it's gone too far. Free speech itself does not promote violence, it's the people that do this, not the concept.

 

[Buttonsy]

I think free speech is important, but I think it's also important to remember that a lot of forms of free speech do encourage violence, even if it's not a kicking-and-punching kind of violence. And free speech that promotes violence, like threats, was illegal a long time before "political correctness" was such a hot topic, but no one seemed to care about that violation of free speech, because I think most of us can agree that not letting people threaten each other is a good thing. If someone uses their free speech to, say, encourage the government to cut spending on social programs that keep people living under the poverty line fed, and all those people go hungry because of it, that's speech that encourages violence, even if it doesn't look as violent as kicking someone- personally, I'd rather be kicked than be told I couldn't eat anymore. If opinions didn't influence things, we could say whatever we want, but when you say that the ideal world is one where peoples' basic needs aren't met, you encourage others to think that way and vote that way- speech does not exist in a vacuum. A lot of us can agree that it's okay to arrest someone who uses their free speech to tell someone that they are going to kill them, but when we instead use our speech to encourage legal policies that will destroy peoples' lives, especially if it's people that are often looked down upon by society like poor people, addicts, disabled people, mentally ill people, and undocumented migrants, we start debating if it's okay to restrict free speech that can lead to death. To clarify, I do often think that trying to take away peoples' rights to voice controversial opinions just because they are offensive or unpopular is wrong, but I feel like a lot of people aren't able to recognize why they might be disrespected if their free speech encourages violence. Personally, I don't care about people having offensive opinions just for the sake of feeling offended by those opinions- I'm gay, and homophobes saying homophobic things really doesn't bother me all that much, or at least, it doesn't hurt my feelings. What does bother me is when homophobes build up a platform and start saying things like "a landlord should be allowed to kick out their gay tenant on the basis of being gay" or "people should be allowed to reject people from jobs on the basis of being gay" or other things that push gay people into the violent cycle of poverty, or when homophobia is considered normal enough that more physical violence against gay people is encouraged. In the same way that a person who gets threatened might react violently for fear of their life, I get the feeling a lot of people on the left who are turning to extremist tactics are doing it for fear of their life as well. To clarify, I do not know enough about Antifa to firmly say I stand with or against them, all I'm saying is that we should stop pretending that threatening peoples' health or life by taking away their rights and resources isn't a form of violence, and that people reacting to having their rights and resources taken away violently is hard not for me to view as self-defense.

Some of it may be more promoting violence in a more removed sense, and I tend to not be overly critical of such things if it's less direct, but for example, the reason why some people might take it as offensive when someone says they support Trump is because a lot of the things that have happened since Trump became president have been violent or have attacked peoples rights. ICE separating families and people dying or being abused by ICE is violence. Trying to ban transgender people from serving in the military is taking their rights away. So when you say you support someone who is a face of actions of violence or of destroying peoples' rights, it's harder for people to not take that as you saying you encourage violence. I realize some people may dislike some of Trumps' more extreme actions but simply view him as a better alternative to other candidates, but for the people directly effected by his extreme actions, if you voted Trump in, you did contribute to putting him in a position where he was able to do these extreme things.

Basically, I don't believe free speech is evil, but I find it super suspicious that people were totally okay with violations to free speech like banning threats and harassment, until it got political.

 

[Alolan_Apples]

-snip-

Long post, but you made a very good point. Of course, using free speech to do violence is not fine. And being violent against others for using speech you’re not comfortable with isn’t acceptable either. For that latter part, if they said something extremely racist or homophobic, it’s their fault that they got beaten for using defamatory language, but it doesn’t make you any better to get violent against them. If they are promoting violence or other illegal activities (like counterfeiting), it’s their fault that they got beaten for doing the crime or even suggesting crime, but it doesn’t make you any better to get violent against them. If they’re voicing their opinions on any political issue, being violent against them for that is both uncivil and it mirrors a hate crime. If they’re criticizing or vilifying a person or group that has done something evil, being violent against them makes you even worse as it explains why they’re doing so. Point is, violence is never acceptable for whatever reason it is.

Now I get what’s wrong with supporting Trump. But what I don’t get is, why is it considered wrongful to oppose Barack Obama or think be is a bad president? I think Obama is the worst president we had as I blame him for turning America into a dysfunctional society (add to that, he ruined healthcare, betrayed Israel, violated the constitution, and engaged in several scandals like that prison swap one). But that doesn’t make me a Trump supporter. That makes me an Obama opponent. Even still, Antifa, SJWs, and major politicians and columnists from the left find it offensive to be against Obama, no matter what your reasoning is. I also don’t understand why it’s offensive to support the right to choose any costume for Halloween or mourn Kate Steinle. If Antifa is fighting fascism, there’s no reason to trash a Kate Steinle vigil when Kate isn’t even a fascist.

 

[SpiritofAce]

Free Speech is essential in society, and I don't disagree with any of your points in your OP. I do think however there are clearly lines that can be crossed, and if you cross a line and say something seriously offensive to a group of people then that is not right. Personally, I am tired of SJWs singling out everyone who doesn't agree with every point they make - if you disagree with them you're probably going to be labelled a racist or a bigot. And it is dangerous and wrong to give people a label just because they're not following the mainstream. I saw on a certain gaming-insider forum people telling a user to "stop being friends" with someone in real life, because they are a Trump supporter. It is absolutely ridiculous.

I'm not aligning myself with a political side - I'm not the biggest follower of US politics, and to be frank I have no idea who I'd vote for if I was in the US - but you should absolutely be able to have your own view, and be able to express it as long as it isn't as people have said hugely offensive to a group of people or condoning violence. Don't give up your own views because you're being told by others that it is wrong to have your viewpoint.