James Green Argues Against Equal Pay

[toadsworthy]

I kind of disagree with you. I think women get paid a little less because in general men are more sales/production driven. Not always but usually. Additionally women take more time off (because of babies/family requirements) While men typically continue to work. Again this is not always true but in a general I think that's usually the case.

I say all this as a sales/production driven woman who does not take time off unless I'm required to take a mandatory vacation, or I have a death in the family. I'm up for a raise soon and I have no doubt I'll get a larger raise than my male counter part who has to take time off for his sick children. My male counter part only makes more than me because I've worked here for 6 months and he's worked here for 5 years.

Ok well that is something nailed down with facts and reports. In other salary based careers, women just naturally get less because subconsciously that stereotype, that even you have, has become so mainstream it invades our actions without even us knowing. Also men are usually the ones in higher positions, which comes back to the discussion about equal opportunity

 

[Soda Fox]

Ok well that is something nailed down with facts and reports. In other salary based careers, women just naturally get less because subconsciously that stereotype, that even you have, has become so mainstream it invades our actions without even us knowing. Also men are usually the ones in higher positions, which comes back to the discussion about equal opportunity

I'm not arguing the facts. I'm arguing the why. It's probably a mix of both. I prefer to have the mindset that there are less microagressions towards me and that my skill and experience determine my pay. It gives me a better sense of control to think this way, which improves my mood and work ethic and allows me to work to the best of my ability. If I'm being discriminated against, I'm going to prove those people wrong rather than complain. But that's just me. I'm just offering a different view on the matter and people can believe what they want to believe.

 

[toadsworthy]

I'm not arguing the facts. I'm arguing the why. It's probably a mix of both. I prefer to have the mindset that there are less microagressions towards me and that my skill and experience determine my pay. It gives me a better sense of control to think this way, which improves my mood and work ethic and allows me to work to the best of my ability. If I'm being discriminated against, I'm going to prove those people wrong rather than complain. But that's just me. I'm just offering a different view on the matter and people can believe what they want to believe.

It definitely is a mix of both. Just like the examples you are giving, there are instances where undeniably women and men get their rightful pay increases and salary based on reports of hours/sales. I work as a server, you can't apply the wage gap to a situation like that, because pay is based on how much someone works and gets tipped. However, the point I'm making (and I'm not saying you are not understanding or devaluing it) is that in careers where salary is not determined by sales/hours whatever, there is a clear gap. women getting paid 70 cents to every dollar a man makes for the same job. Its not something that can fully be explained, but its something that IS there.

Its fine that you choose to think there are not a lot of micro aggressions in your workplace, and I hope there isn't. However, the fact that you need to think that is really the problem, our culture needs to work to a place that can accept all types of people without these micro aggressions.

I'm currently in a multi-cultural counseling class, and we talk about this like every time (micro aggressions that is). Its made me more aware of the ones people have done to me, and strangely it empowers me. I would never change the things people judge me for, and they come off as the ignorant ones. We shouldn't think were "complaining" when we stick up for things in our lives we either can't change or our preferences and I think its poignant to at least recognize the ignorance coming from other people and to address it in a civil way. Letting people do these micro aggressions eventually leads to the cultural clashes we are experiencing (at least in america) today, like the black lives matter and ban against muslims.

 

[Soda Fox]

It definitely is a mix of both. Just like the examples you are giving, there are instances where undeniably women and men get their rightful pay increases and salary based on reports of hours/sales. I work as a server, you can't apply the wage gap to a situation like that, because pay is based on how much someone works and gets tipped. However, the point I'm making (and I'm not saying you are not understanding or devaluing it) is that in careers where salary is not determined by sales/hours whatever, there is a clear gap. women getting paid 70 cents to every dollar a man makes for the same job. Its not something that can fully be explained, but its something that IS there.

Its fine that you choose to think there are not a lot of micro aggressions in your workplace, and I hope there isn't. However, the fact that you need to think that is really the problem, our culture needs to work to a place that can accept all types of people without these micro aggressions.

I'm currently in a multi-cultural counseling class, and we talk about this like every time (micro aggressions that is). Its made me more aware of the ones people have done to me, and strangely it empowers me. I would never change the things people judge me for, and they come off as the ignorant ones. We shouldn't think were "complaining" when we stick up for things in our lives we either can't change or our preferences and I think its poignant to at least recognize the ignorance coming from other people and to address it in a civil way. Letting people do these micro aggressions eventually leads to the cultural clashes we are experiencing (at least in america) today, like the black lives matter and ban against muslims.

I want to start off by reiterating what I told you in the PM. I'm enjoying this debate with you so I'm going to continue.

I'll quickly address my view on the "Muslim ban" and BLM. From what I've read the ban isn't on Muslims, it's on certain countries, which is well within the President's power to do. The countries happen to be primarily Muslim dominant, but there are plenty more countries which are Muslim dominant that are not banned. From what I understand, the reason for the ban was because the countries listed don't have procedures in place to verify its citizens and are known for giving out fake identification. Of course I don't have all the intelligence and only know what I've been researching myself, but the amount of Muslim dominated countries that are not banned leads me to conclude the reason must be something other than because those countries are Muslim dominated.

For Black Lives Matter I think they initially had a really strong message and I would have supported them if I didn't think they went overboard. I still support the ones in the group who want to protest peacefully and don't chant "What do we want - dead cops", but I can't support those who want to kill others to make a point.

However this conversation is in regards to the gender wage gap. Again, I acknowledge there is one. And yes I think we should teach and be aware of underlying sexism, but for me the problem starts, again, when people take that ideology too far or think it's the main reason when we just don't know what the true problem is. So I believe we should teach awareness of micro-aggressions against women in the work place and to be cognizant of it but we should also reiterate that part of the reason there is a wage gap could be from women traditionally taking more time off of work to be mothers and the potential difference in productivity between individuals. I absolutely think everyone should be taught to how to keep track of how they're doing at work and if possible compare their productivity to that of their colleagues so they can make informed decisions on how they confront their HR department/a lawyer regarding potential sexism in the work place.

Another part of the problem is that it's taboo to talk about salary in the workplace. Not talking about our salaries with our colleagues only works out well for the company - and talking about it could help reveal the true underlying reason for the wage gap since we can assess the salaries on an individual level. If slacker Joe who sells 3 apples a week is making more money than Sally who sells 5 apples a week we will know it's sexism. However if Joe is making more money but selling 10 apples and Sally's only selling 5 then we know it's a matter of productivity. As it is now we only know that Joe is making more money than Sally on average.

 

[toadsworthy]

SNIP

It's considered taboo to talk about salary because we tend to believe that if I go talk to my boss about my salary he is going to look down upon me, and who is more likely to go talk about their salary? Women and people who feel slighted that white men are making more money than them. something that is there, its been researched. A valid thing to talk about right? well then they go talk to their bosses who write them off as "complaining" or say those people are being racist or sexist themselves... and that negatively impacts their view of them furthering the differences in cultures. So my point is that the situations and things we "know" about the wage gap and business (like taboo to talk about salary) is already conditioned to be against the minorities. We need equal opportunity for people in order to fix this, but people arent willing to fully and consciously commit to it, because they are stuck in the traditionalist viewpoint about black people, hispanic people, and women. There are strides for it though. Like now giving men time off from work for new born babies just like women. Which again we shouldn't be not hiring or demeaning a woman in the workplace on the chance she may take time off to have a child. She should get paid for her work and not for time off, obviously, but there is so much subconscious negative effects on women in the workplace based on it, based on a natural thing that no woman can control. You can say "pbth, sorry thats life, you gotta have the babies" but like thats not how it should be...

I'm not knocking your production example too, I very much understand that if someone has more sales they should make more money based on that. But preset salaries based on how much someone gets per sale can be debated.

But still the muslim ban is a white man deciding that those countries (based on the actions of a few) and their people are not fit to come into America. Everyone in those countries are not angry towards america. and people in other countries can still launch terrorist attacks. He is passing wide judgement on people of certain countries, and its not how someone who runs a country should be making decisions.

Black lives matter is a result of years of people trying to fit into a "white world" and then experiencing racial bias together on a bigger scale. Its actually a stage in the minority/people of color's development of cultural identity. These people have felt rejection from the world that I could never imagine because I am a white male in the US. I am not justifying what they are doing because I too hate violence, but I can understand how with the history of african americans and current events why they could be so angry.

 

[Soda Fox]

Too long didn't quote

I have to go to work but I still have some things I want to debate with you. I work early tomorrow so I don't know how long it's going to be. If I take longer than the weekend I'll move this conversation to PM if you don't have a problem with that. We are getting a bit off topic with parts of our responses so it will be nice to have our own platform where we can deviate as we need to.

 

[piichinu]

Saem...I agre w you ver much...equal rights not that big a deal

like lmao equal pay? go back 2 tumblr dumb sjw

- - - Post Merge - - -

i'm a traditionalist ^_^

yeah this pretty much, i don't know how else to word it lol

 

[Soda Fox]

@toadsworthy

I think we had a bit of a misunderstanding. I don't expect people to talk to their boss immediately about their pay. I would only encourage them to do so if they're already talking raises and the like. They definitely shouldn't talk to people who have some sort of control over them at first. I'm talking about how it's taboo even among equal colleagues to discuss pay. I definitely think that should be encouraged and never be a disciplinary offence like it can be now. Talking among colleagues of equal rank and ensuring through conversation that everyone is earning their fair share hurts the company, not the employees. If I learned talking to a colleague that was producing more than me that they are earning less due to their skin color/sexual orientation/gender I would definitely defend that person and offer to strike and show my support against a biased company/boss. Or the person in question would know they're being treated unfairly and be able to confront their boss/HR/a lawyer about the discrimination against them.

For the ban, I want to say again that I think it's well within a country leader's right to ban any country they feel necessary. It's not always morally right but I think if there are good reasons in place, for example if the ban truly is due to the lack of vetting the country that's being banned does on its citizens, there isn't much reason for an uproar. If we decided to ban Russians from coming to the US until we figure out whatever happened this election* I don't think there would be a problem with that either. It's true that we shouldn't condemn an entire country based on a few bad apples but the ban isn't supposed to be permanent and is only serving until we can get proper vetting of those who come into our country so that the good ones can come here and the bad apples can stay out. Since I work in a bank I'll relate it to a bank robbery - after a robbery the bank closes its doors for the day to gather evidence, figure out what happened, and make a plan. Even good people can't go into a bank after a robbery. Just because they aren't allowed inside right now doesn't mean we think they're all potential criminals.

**again this is based on my research of the situation and the conclusions I've reached based on the countries that are banned, the countries that are not, etc. Like I said before, the ban is on very few countries and there are many more with similar ideologies that aren't banned, so there must be something to it other than just a dislike of the people there. And my guess is that the reason for the ban must be more similar to the issue of proper vetting and identification.

I entirely agree with your last paragraph. I think the best thing we can do is encourage people to look out for each other and not hurt each other, lend an ear and let others vent to us, fight for their rights when they need us to, let them stand for themselves when they want to, and hope for the best. This isn't just towards any one group of course, this can be for any group, any individual, etc.

 

[toadsworthy]

@Soda Fox

unfortunately people rarely do stick up if they were to find out a discrepancy based on culture, ethnicity, gender, etc. And in these conversations around the office people hear others say "I think i'm getting paid less because I'm a woman" and chuck it up to that person complaining, making a big deal, the boss wouldn't do that, or just passively let it go by. And in these situations, there are zero or fudged reports to back up claims. Corruption is stupid I hate people lol, and there is a lot of that in the world right now unfortunately, mostly for selfish purposes.

I like your bank robbery example, but if someone says "I saw the bank robber, he was a black man wearing a red shirt" you don't persecute all the black man in the city who are wearing red shirts. Just like while yes, people from those countries may have been involved in recent events, you can't block off a whole country because of it. It shows a lack of full comprehension of this thought process from the high government officials and xenophobia which is not good for where our American Culture needs to be progressing in these times. We don't need a relapse on rights for all types of people feeling left out in some ways, we need progression to accepting all types of people because that is what makes America great. We were founded on people who were escaping the tyranny of the British at the time (based on religion, you know the deal), but then destroyed the lives of those we encountered....

I love your response in the last paragraph

I entirely agree with your last paragraph. I think the best thing we can do is encourage people to look out for each other and not hurt each other, lend an ear and let others vent to us, fight for their rights when they need us to, let them stand for themselves when they want to, and hope for the best. This isn't just towards any one group of course, this can be for any group, any individual, etc.

The world needs a lot more of this, but unfortunately I think people are too ignorant to begin to want to try to understand a fraction of what you and I have politely discussed.

 

[Soda Fox]

@toadsworthy

I've gotten to the point where I agree entirely with you about everything except* (auto correct error) I have a few points I'd still like to debate regarding the travel ban but that's off topic for this thread. I'll either make a new thread soon or just pm you. I think the forum is getting sick of political threads. However I also think we argue respectfully and can pose a good example for others. I'll think it over and be in touch.

 

[Butasquash]

This I don't agree with. A brain surgeon getting paid less than someone who flips a burger...

Yeah you right, salary should be different among occupations.

Sorry for the late reply. I am really not in the mood to argue and you are clearly not thinking outside the box. Anyways! People don't realize how money can affect us all. Now, if every job were to pay the exact same (a very fair and great pay) then we should all be able to choose a job that we truly love and therefore do a better job. I can't keep track of HOW MANY TIMES I have heard people say "I always wanted to be x...but it doesn't pay well or my parents think it's not a successful job." and then you have people who take a job that has great pay but THEY CLEARLY HATE IT. If there's one way to ruin a life, it's to be forced into something you don't like...over and over and over again. I've seen TEACHERS, NURSES, BURGER FLIPPERS and all walks of life who hate their jobs, it doesn't just affect them but US as well. I've seen teachers mentally screw up their students, nurses who beat the elderly for pissing in their bed and burger flippers who intentionally put their pubes in the food they serve to others. And don't insult burger flippers. There are people who are dedicated Spongebob squarepantses. The thing is, if EVERYONE had the job they truly loved, and put their heart and soul into it, don't you dare tell me they deserve less or more than everyone else. Now, people who do a half ass job and sit on their butt instead of working half the time, those people can go to hell. Screw them. But that wouldn't be a problem if every job was obtainable and we could all live our dreams.

 

[Weiland]

Okay this is just downright dumb. This is being traditionalist, like (I'm assuming; haven't read the thread yet), said in this post. Also, if the world were traditionalist, black Americans and Aboriginals/Torres Strait Islanders would still be slaves. FFS.

- - - Post Merge - - -

Sorry for the late reply. I am really not in the mood to argue and you are clearly not thinking outside the box. Anyways! People don't realize how money can affect us all. Now, if every job were to pay the exact same (a very fair and great pay) then we should all be able to choose a job that we truly love and therefore do a better job. I can't keep track of HOW MANY TIMES I have heard people say "I always wanted to be x...but it doesn't pay well or my parents think it's not a successful job." and then you have people who take a job that has great pay but THEY CLEARLY HATE IT. If there's one way to ruin a life, it's to be forced into something you don't like...over and over and over again. I've seen TEACHERS, NURSES, BURGER FLIPPERS and all walks of life who hate their jobs, it doesn't just affect them but US as well. I've seen teachers mentally screw up their students, nurses who beat the elderly for pissing in their bed and burger flippers who intentionally put their pubes in the food they serve to others. And don't insult burger flippers. There are people who are dedicated Spongebob squarepantses. The thing is, if EVERYONE had the job they truly loved, and put their heart and soul into it, don't you dare tell me they deserve less or more than everyone else. Now, people who do a half ass job and sit on their butt instead of working half the time, those people can go to hell. Screw them. But that wouldn't be a problem if every job was obtainable and we could all live our dreams.

Communists tried this. It failed terribly because of the fact that some people had to do the crappy jobs (like cleaning poop and room service) instead of doing the good jobs like being an entrepreneur or something else they enjoy.

 

[Tao]

Sorry for the late reply. I am really not in the mood to argue and you are clearly not thinking outside the box. Anyways! People don't realize how money can affect us all. Now, if every job were to pay the exact same (a very fair and great pay) then we should all be able to choose a job that we truly love and therefore do a better job. I can't keep track of HOW MANY TIMES I have heard people say "I always wanted to be x...but it doesn't pay well or my parents think it's not a successful job." and then you have people who take a job that has great pay but THEY CLEARLY HATE IT. If there's one way to ruin a life, it's to be forced into something you don't like...over and over and over again. I've seen TEACHERS, NURSES, BURGER FLIPPERS and all walks of life who hate their jobs, it doesn't just affect them but US as well. I've seen teachers mentally screw up their students, nurses who beat the elderly for pissing in their bed and burger flippers who intentionally put their pubes in the food they serve to others. And don't insult burger flippers. There are people who are dedicated Spongebob squarepantses. The thing is, if EVERYONE had the job they truly loved, and put their heart and soul into it, don't you dare tell me they deserve less or more than everyone else. Now, people who do a half ass job and sit on their butt instead of working half the time, those people can go to hell. Screw them. But that wouldn't be a problem if every job was obtainable and we could all live our dreams.

...If everybody had the one job they wanted then society would crumble as nobody is there to do the crap jobs nobody wants to do. It's simply not possible for what you're saying to be a thing...

There's also a limited number of jobs, there's not enough vacancy's and simply no need for x amount of 'job'. Jobs exist because somebody wants somebody to do something, so in order for everybody to have their dream job there would need to be enough people willing to pay all those people to do that thing.

And getting back to an earlier point: do you think a person who wants to be a doctor is going to love their job when it's the reason they've lost so much time preparing for it and got themselves into massive debt whilst the pimpled teen at Burger King is debt free on the same pay check in his new Bugatti?


You're also disregarding the people who enjoy their jobs because of financial incentive. My job description is 'unimpressive' at best, but I like my job and I'm good at it, and financial incentive is a huge reason for that. A static 'equal' paycheck only takes job satisfaction from people like myself and gives it to others. You're not fixing a problem, you're just putting it somewhere else...And from an employers perspective, are they going to reward and give incentive for people to perform well, or are they going to enable people to do the absolute bare minimum?

The thing is, if EVERYONE had the job they truly loved, and put their heart and soul into it, don't you dare tell me they deserve less or more than everyone else.

I dare: If they're not good at it, they don't deserve to be paid as much as somebody who is.

I don't care if the most enthusiastic home decorator in the world turned up to my house, a massive infectious smile on his face as he's doing the one job in the world he wants to do, absolutely over the moon that I've asked him to make my walls blue, literally his life ambition...If he colored the walls using crayons and accidentally killed the cat, he's not getting paid and doesn't deserve to.

Fite mi

 

[N e s s]

and so the song and dance continues yet again

 

[Haskell]

and so the song and dance continues yet again

I don't know why this thread got revived. .-.

 

[N e s s]

Sorry for the late reply. I am really not in the mood to argue and you are clearly not thinking outside the box. Anyways! People don't realize how money can affect us all. Now, if every job were to pay the exact same (a very fair and great pay) then we should all be able to choose a job that we truly love and therefore do a better job. I can't keep track of HOW MANY TIMES I have heard people say "I always wanted to be x...but it doesn't pay well or my parents think it's not a successful job." and then you have people who take a job that has great pay but THEY CLEARLY HATE IT. If there's one way to ruin a life, it's to be forced into something you don't like...over and over and over again. I've seen TEACHERS, NURSES, BURGER FLIPPERS and all walks of life who hate their jobs, it doesn't just affect them but US as well. I've seen teachers mentally screw up their students, nurses who beat the elderly for pissing in their bed and burger flippers who intentionally put their pubes in the food they serve to others. And don't insult burger flippers. There are people who are dedicated Spongebob squarepantses. The thing is, if EVERYONE had the job they truly loved, and put their heart and soul into it, don't you dare tell me they deserve less or more than everyone else. Now, people who do a half ass job and sit on their butt instead of working half the time, those people can go to hell. Screw them. But that wouldn't be a problem if every job was obtainable and we could all live our dreams.

Buddy, I'm really not sure what point you're getting at here. What I was talking about was how somebody who spends 8 years in medical school shouldn't get paid as much as someone who works at McDonalds. Not only that, its kinda dumb for someone to choose to go to college and learn about the career they want to pursue only for them to hate it. Thats what changing your major is for, you have 4 years to decide whether its really something you like.

Heck, I want to be a photographer and that doesn't pay very well either but I really don't care. Its my dream and passion, and I want to do it. It doesn't even have to be my main job during my middle aged years, it could just be something I do for extra money when I'm retired.

Plus, if you think everyone should be paid the same what would the minimum wage even be? 10 dollars per hour, 100 dollars per hour? That would NOT help the economy one bit. Theres so many holes and flaws to what you're suggesting here that would just make our society collapse.

 

[ApolloJusticeAC]

stupid ass, women deserve pay men have tbh

 

[Haskell]

stupid ass, women deserve pay men have tbh

I'll never understand why some people don't want equal pay for a man and a woman.

 

[KaydeeKrunk]

Well I mean if we can't get equal pay at least pay my boyfriend twice as much so I can just stay home and be the housewife society wants me to be.

 

[Soot Sprite]

His whole argument is "women are supposed to be the 'mothers' and paying them equal is generally bad for the family' but that makes no sense. Wouldn't paying women and men the same make it better for the families - if both are being paid equally that means more money for the family. A lot of women have jobs now so his traditionalist way of thinking isn't even relevant. Women aren't staying home and raising children so there's no reason to treat them like they are. And honestly, that wouldn't be the life I wanted for myself either way. My fiance makes more money than me but he also has two jobs. I would feel like I'm taking advantage of how hard he works if I'm at home all day, I work because I want too- and if I'm working of course I want to be earning as much as my male coworkers.

His argument is just his way of protecting men getting higher pay. His only other reason against it is that men will end up making less money because they're paying women more.