Trump reverses Obama's guidance on bathrooms

[forestyne]

^^ Important.


Gender dysphoria is, believe it or not, a real psychological thing that actually exists (shocking, I know). People don't choose to feel that way. I didn't choose to be bisexual but here I am yo. It's not something you can point at and yell "I DON'T FEEL THE OPPOSITE SEX BUT I WANT TO BE THE OPPOSITE SEX".

I actually watched a Sr Pelo addressing the "gender war". I recommend you guys check it out.

 

[Bowie]

I'm gay. Just like a trans person, I would not choose to be something that I know I would be risking my safety, reputation, and family for. Of course, we are prideful, but only because we have to.

We shouldn't exist in a world where we have to celebrate the fact we are still surviving. Our ability to live and work in peace with everybody different and the same to us should never have been something to question. That's why "normal" people don't have pride movements. They don't bloody need 'em.

 

[-Apples-]

People do not choose to be trans any more than they choose to be black or white or gay, friend. No one is raised to be trans, in fact, many trans people are RAISED to deal with a body and pronoun that doesn't truly make them happy.

One thing I have to admit is that everything you do, everything you say, and eveything you think, are natural rights, no matter how good or bad something is, how many people think it's good or not, or what the consequences are. The law can't take away natural rights, and you only lose these natural rights when you become physically or mentally incapable of doing them anymore. And yes, there are genetics and conditions you cannot control, which also inhibits some natural rights.

If you want to know where I got the idea that transgender is a choice, I once took an internet personality quiz, and one of the questions had something about transgenderism. The way it was worded made me think that it was a choice. I'm not sure why I thought of it, but I look at both sides to see what they think.

And not to throw the thread off-topic, but whoever added the applesforpotus2020 tag, save your apple tags for site events. Apples have much less interest into politics than holidays and festivals.

 

[vel]

Contrary to what you believe, the right for people to make bathroom choices is not a civil rights issue. It's not. But they do have the right to use public restrooms. Just fighting for something trivial with lawsuits is not very fair. I do recognize that there are some people that are truly transgender, but for those that chose to be transgender without being raised that way, a lot of people couldn't acknowledge that they are the gender they identify. They would say that they're still male even when they identify as female and vice versa. I wouldn't say that these people are right, but I'm trying to point out that this isn't a civil rights issue like racial segregation and same-sex marriage. Especially if they don't even make up 1% of the population.

If even being neutral or failing to take sides is considered transphobic, then I'm sorry to say, but you're full of bias.

However, I do think that the bullying and harassment of transgender people should stop. However, bullying in general has gotten far out of control that even punishing people for bullying isn't gonna work. Harsh punishment wasn't even considered an option due to emotional sensitivity and insecurity as some would find this unethical. I don't care how sensitive people are this day. They ought to stick with the facts.

lemme just.. stop you. for a second. just a second.

so you're saying:
1) right for people to make bathroom choices is not a civil rights issue, but they do have the right to use public restrooms.

um. do you know what civil rights is? it's "the rights of citizens to political and social freedom and equality." it falls under social freedom, which is dealing with the subject of liberty, and liberty is the freedom to do, think, and speak what you want, and freedom from control, obligation, restriction, etc. the right for people to make bathroom choices IS a civil rights issue. do your research first.

and don't give me that "it's my opinion" crap, because i go by the saying "You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”
Harlan Ellison

2) I do recognize that there are some people that are truly transgender, but for those that chose to be transgender without being raised that way.

All transgender people are transgender?????? Raised that way??? What type of **** are you spewing, bro? Literally, there is no difference between truly transgender and transgender, I have no idea what you're trying to say. No one chooses to be transgender. No one chooses to be oppressed and live lives in fear?? No one chooses to have to advocate and fight for their own rights every single day??? And how are you raised transgender?? No one's parents are going to be like "I wanted a son, but you are a daughter. I will treat you like son." And they're still going to be a daughter, since they aren't trans and they don't want to be. Like honestly what.

3) "racial segregation and same-sex marriage."

i'm not even sure what you're trying to talk about at this point. they all fall under the same category lmao. we all want equality and we all want to be identified as what we ARE. No one chooses to be gay, or trans. They just ARE. They never choose it. Same-sex marriage & racial segregation fall under the exact same categories as trans people trying to be recognized as trans, and they should have the exact same rights as someone who isn't. Like, I don't understand why you're separating it.

4) "Especially if they don't even make up 1% of the population."

so you're saying that if they're the minority you shouldn't advocate or care about them? um, they still matter, no matter how small their numbers might be. all humans matter?

5) If even being neutral or failing to take sides is considered transphobic, then I'm sorry to say, but you're full of bias.

if you're against trans people being trans or having rights, yes that's transphobic, not bias. you don't have to advocate them. just accept them as who they are.

6) However, I do think that the bullying and harassment of transgender people should stop. However, bullying in general has gotten far out of control that even punishing people for bullying isn't gonna work. Harsh punishment wasn't even considered an option due to emotional sensitivity and insecurity as some would find this unethical.

ok so first you say "hey, it's not a civil rights issue so why should we care," followed it up with "they choose to be trans and face all this discrimination," continue it on with "it's not the same category (even though it totally is) of the current real issues," added on with "they don't even really matter there aren't many of them anyway," and ended it off with "if i don't agree with trans people being trans, i am not transphobic." and then you say you're an ADVOCATE against the bullying and harassment?

you literally are the reason why the discrimination and hate against trans people is still a thing. because people like you don't understand it fully, so you sprout out a bunch of info that isn't true without even trying to understand. trans people are harassed because people don't COMPREHEND their issues or them at all.

thanks

 

[Dogemon]

One thing I have to admit is that everything you do, everything you say, and eveything you think, are natural rights, no matter how good or bad something is, how many people think it's good or not, or what the consequences are. The law can't take away natural rights, and you only lose these natural rights when you become physically or mentally incapable of doing them anymore. And yes, there are genetics and conditions you cannot control, which also inhibits some natural rights.

If you want to know where I got the idea that transgender is a choice, I once took an internet personality quiz, and one of the questions had something about transgenderism. The way it was worded made me think that it was a choice. I'm not sure why I thought of it, but I look at both sides to see what they think.

So what you are saying is "Oh one quiz on the internet said a thing and I can't use google to look into it any more than that". Because there are not millions of crappy quizzes on the entire internet. You clearly are not looking at both sides if you cannot even do the research to see how transgender people do not CHOOSE to live a life where they are constantly faced with bs.

 

[seliph]

Just wanna add a few things:

1. the "1% of the population" thing is BS. As is the percentage for LGB people. There are so many closeted people and so many people who just haven't figured themselves out, it's impossible to put a number on it. Not to mention, how did someone get this number? Did they ask every single person on this earth, or just take a poll of some country (which is still inaccurate considering not everyone would take said poll).
So, is the number of trans people on this planet a minorty? Yes. Is it a small number? Yes. But 1% is a lie.

2. People have mentioned this but being trans is not a choice. Actual trans people (not an online test likely made by a cisgender person) will tell you this. Your gender is mental, but it isn't something you decide for yourself. It's something you discover.

3. Being neutral may not directly contribute to transphobia, but as always, along with silence it helps the oppressor and does nothing for the oppressed.

So what you are saying is "Oh one quiz on the internet said a thing and I can't use google to look into it any more than that". Because there are not millions of crappy quizzes on the entire internet. You clearly are not looking at both sides if you cannot even do the research to see how transgender people do not CHOOSE to live a life where they are constantly faced with bs.

An online test told me I'm Princess Jasmine so bow down to me peasants

 

[-Apples-]

Okay, just calm down you guys. I made that post to back up why I think Texas was right that cities shouldn't force businesses to allow transgender people into bathrooms of their gender identity. I never said that to troll people. I had no intentions of making people feel bad for what they are or what they believe. As for the "if even being neutral or failing to take sides part", I mentioned that because I was trying to stand in the middle grounds saying that transgender people shouldn't be forced to use bathrooms of their biological sex, but nobody should be forced to allow them to use bathrooms of their gender identity.

 

[seliph]

but nobody should be forced to allow them to use bathrooms of their gender identity.

But they should, 'cause it's basic decency to allow people to take a pee.

The female gender (and male, but I feel like this law is attacking trans women more than men) doesn't belong to anyone, let alone some random transphobic cisgender women in a bathroom at Target. It is simply a concept that exists on its own. There's no "their gender identity" in the way that you are using it because trans people have the exact same gender identity as cis people, and it isn't any less their identity than it is a cis person's. Trans people aren't a separate gender, they're men and women and they are just as much men and women as a cis person.

Edit: Btw for others reading, when I say the law is attacking trans women more I mean like, the people who created and are in favour of said law. It's always about "some man going into the women's bathroom".

 

[forestyne]

If you want to know where I got the idea that transgender is a choice, I once took an internet personality quiz, and one of the questions had something about transgenderism. The way it was worded made me think that it was a choice.

So you decided a Buzzfeed quiz was a definitive source of information? Without actually researching it yourself?

An internet quiz told me I am a steak and kidney pie, that doesn't make it true.

Regardless, being transgender is not a choice. Therefore it should be a choice to let them use the bathroom they want to use.

 

[Bowie]

Apple, you've said before on a previous thread (actually, was it this thread?) that you get all your information from random blog posts and forum posts across the Internet with no regard for their source.

Doesn't honestly surprise me that a quiz of all things is where people here, not just Apple, get their information from. If people did their own research there would be so few arguments here over very simple stuff like this.

 

[amanda1983]

They'll never answer this just watch the mess til 1:40, and then a bit from 4:55 onwards

(or the whole video bc it's great and this guy gets annihilated)

Great video, I highly recommend it for anyone who hasn't seen it yet.

---

As for what I think about Trump's decision here, I think it will be judged harshly in the history books - much like those to preserve slavery, segregation, and continue to prevent women from voting (anti-suffragism was a real thing) are today. Which is to say, I think it will be overturned/superseded and trans people will be granted their appropriate human rights (civil rights, if you prefer) sooner or later. I very much hope for sooner.

How horrific it is that such a basic thing is up for heated debate in a first-world country in 2017.

 

[vel]

But nobody should be forced to allow them to use bathrooms of their gender identity.

correct me if i'm wrong but that is pretty transphobic of the store owners. if they identify as what they are, they should be allowed to use that restroom, no questions asked. like null said, trans people ARE the same gender identity as cis people.

so the middle ground is really not plausible; you either are with trans people and you believe they deserve the right to use the restroom they identify with (which shouldn't be a belief, it should be a right), or you think they don't deserve the right. there is no maybe they deserve it and they also don't. i dislike people who talk about other people's rights like it's some sort of poll, it's the matter of rights.

 

[forestyne]

smh why does nobody use sources or have any knowledge other than racism/transphobic/homophobic thoughts that you justify as "a close source" and then backpedal and say it's "an opinion" and pull out your victim thong.


Unrelated but I had a debate earlier on why rehabilitating wild rescue rats can pass on the Seoul virus to pet rats. When I asked this person where they were getting their sources from and why they were being a downright *****, she said "I have a very close source that's not been released to the public". Like *****, we KNOW Seoul is not passed from wild rats. Wild rats don't even carry diseases that can affect humans. Rats didn't carry the ****ing plague. Then some other ***** when on about "it makes me cringe when people rescue wild rats, they're so full of diseases". NO. NO NO. NO. AWILDRATDESERVESTHESAMECHANCEATLIFEASANYOTHERANIMAL WHYAREWESOQUICKTOTHINKTHEY'REFULLOFDISEASESANDGROSSWHENTHEY'REJUSTLIKEOURDOMESTICATEDRATS It sorta reminds me of all of the debates on here but anyway just ignore this lol

 

[Soda Fox]

Well, if a club wants to do that for that reason then okay whatever. Public schools and stuff like that are a lot different and Trump's policy just harms transgender people while providing no benefit for anyone else.

This is going to be my last post in this thread because, again, I'm honestly past caring.

Fair point, a club is a private establishment, but privately owned establishments have been forced to change because someone didn't like what they do (like baking a cake for a homosexual couples wedding). If we want to make the rule that publicly traded company and public schools/establishments must oblige by whatever we decide, but privately held companies can choose what they want, then ok. Let's make it consistent and also make it so both sides can have their wish.

About the school bathroom thing, first of all I think kids are too young to really make those decisions. Also until we clear the issue up everywhere, why* (autocorrect so crazy) should we tell kids it's ok to use whatever bathroom/locker room they want when once they reach adulthood we tell them now they need to suck it up and "use the right bathroom"? I think that's just as harmful as making kids use the biological bathroom when they don't think they belong there.

Obama's order came too quickly. It helps kids feel ok for a while but if they reach adulthood and they're told "too bad" then not having the experience in school to learn how to deal with it will only make it harder when they're out of school. If we can agree on something for bathrooms for everyone then we can start working on it for kids.

 

[visibleghost]

Hey also sorry for asking so many questions but: What about the (cis) male rapists who prey on boys/men and the (cis) female rapists who prey on women/girls?

uwu no we ALL know that the filthy Transsexuals are the problem, these perverted pedophiles are just waiting to attack our children i public bathrooms. all cis sex offenders you've heard about? all fake. the Transsexual Army is trying to fool our pure, cisgender minds but we know that they're spreading lies! we Normal cis people need to defend ourselves against the trans people who are getting murdered by us. :3
also the feelings of transphobic cis people are more important than the safety and well being of trans people. you know, since we ? The Cis ? are a majority and all (and also because trans people should die because I'm transphobic and this is all really about how I don't want trans people to exist in public. And if they DO go out in public us transphobes have the right to harass them because, um, their existance is hurting my feelings.)

can u all seriously just admit that you hate trans people. it is so annoying when people are being transphobic but then they say that they love The Transgenders but [transphobia]

Contrary to what you believe, the right for people to make bathroom choices is not a civil rights issue. It's not. But they do have the right to use public restrooms. Just fighting for something trivial with lawsuits is not very fair. I do recognize that there are some people that are truly transgender, but for those that chose to be transgender without being raised that way, a lot of people couldn't acknowledge that they are the gender they identify. They would say that they're still male even when they identify as female and vice versa. I wouldn't say that these people are right, but I'm trying to point out that this isn't a civil rights issue like racial segregation and same-sex marriage. Especially if they don't even make up 1% of the population.

If even being neutral or failing to take sides is considered transphobic, then I'm sorry to say, but you're full of bias.

However, I do think that the bullying and harassment of transgender people should stop. However, bullying in general has gotten far out of control that even punishing people for bullying isn't gonna work. Harsh punishment wasn't even considered an option due to emotional sensitivity and insecurity as some would find this unethical. I don't care how sensitive people are this day. They ought to stick with the facts.

WHAT BATHROOM SHOULD WE USE THEN? who will guarantee our safety in the Birth Sex Bathrooms?
how are trans people being allowed to live, walk around, use the bathroom, do all these normal ****ing things without being stopped by cis people a trivial issue? is it because you're cis that you can think that? Because I, a trans person, think it is extremely important that we get laws and **** that protect us. Because even though this might sound Wild af I do think trans people should be able and allowed to live and exist. crazy, right?

how is it biased to think that you are transphobic when you don't think it is important to protect trans people and our right to exist in public.

your last paragraph is a ****ing mess so i dont understand everythign (who's sensitive? what facts? insicurity????? no punishment 4 bullying?????? whats going on) but do you want a gold star because you said that you think it is Bad 2 bully trans ppl. im on mobile but if anyones not lazy and wanna give thjs user a gold star please do. i feel like they deserve it :')

- - - Post Merge - - -

also @ any mods thinking about banning me for rude behaviour pls reconsider im just upset about being told people like me dont deserve to exist i think thats a valid reason to not be super happy

 

[amanda1983]

This is going to be my last post in this thread because, again, I'm honestly past caring.

Fair point, a club is a private establishment, but privately owned establishments have been forced to change because someone didn't like what they do (like baking a cake for a homosexual couples wedding). If we want to make the rule that publicly traded company and public schools/establishments must oblige by whatever we decide, but privately held companies can choose what they want, then ok. Let's make it consistent and also make it so both sides can have their wish.

About the school bathroom thing, first of all I think kids are too young to really make those decisions. Also until we clear the issue up everywhere, why* (autocorrect so crazy) should we tell kids it's ok to use whatever bathroom/locker room they want when once they reach adulthood we tell them now they need to suck it up and "use the right bathroom"? I think that's just as harmful as making kids use the biological bathroom when they don't think they belong there.

Obama's order came too quickly. It helps kids feel ok for a while but if they reach adulthood and they're told "too bad" then not having the experience in school to learn how to deal with it will only make it harder when they're out of school. If we can agree on something for bathrooms for everyone then we can start working on it for kids.

I don't accept that private businesses should get to decide such things as who may access which "bathroom", that's not a thing in my country at all to my knowledge. I'm sure there are individual businesses run by people who might attempt to make their own rules.. but they'd be utterly ruined if challenged in court. As they should be.

Transgender people have been using the toileting facilities of their choice for as long as human civilisation has *had* choices in facilities. 30 years ago trans men and trans women were do their private business without any permission or lack-thereof from society in general. In 30 years time, I daresay they'll be doing the same thing - only with much better outcomes in terms of quality of life, acceptance (wtf is wrong with some people that an entire segment of our population is still seeking acknowledgement of their right to merely exist???), and a significant decrease in the levels of harrassment, violent crimes, and outright persecution many trans people face on a daily basis.

As I teach the children I work with : people are people. Human rights are human rights for everybody, not just the people we like, or those just like us. Everybody. The end.

 

[LambdaDelta]

gotta love how such a "small" issue has got so many people majestically waving around their flags of willful ignorance and poorly disguised prejudices

 

[-Apples-]

correct me if i'm wrong but that is pretty transphobic of the store owners. if they identify as what they are, they should be allowed to use that restroom, no questions asked. like null said, trans people ARE the same gender identity as cis people.

so the middle ground is really not plausible; you either are with trans people and you believe they deserve the right to use the restroom they identify with (which shouldn't be a belief, it should be a right), or you think they don't deserve the right. there is no maybe they deserve it and they also don't. i dislike people who talk about other people's rights like it's some sort of poll, it's the matter of rights.

Now this is a problem with today's society. They are unwillingly to compromise. What you just said (no offense btw) sounded like it's a bad thing to take the middle ground, and it implies that "if you're not with the transgender people on the debate, then you are an evil person". People should be willingly to compromise. Instead, people these days would rather take issues as 100/0 or 0/100 instead of 50/50 or even 1/99 and 99/1. I know some stuff are not negotiable, but today's social issues (as well as fiscal issues) are negotiable. A bigger concern than the whole bathroom debate is how divided our nation really is. On every issue, they are unwillingly to compromise. And they attack both each other and anyone who refuses to take sides. The fact that they choose the be this way and continue on their decisions is only gonna contribute to our deeply divided nation.

I try to avoid taking sides by not believing in forcing either way. And now you guys are giving me a negative reputation for standing up for what I believe. I cannot tolerate this. It's okay to believe what you guys believe, but under no exception is it okay to make others feel bad for what they believe.

It's also worth mentioning that there are more important issues than the bathroom debate. It's been mentioned several times this thread. I do remember posting a picture of the bathrooms where toilets are separated into different rooms than stalls. I do think it is a good idea all along. I was also suggesting the same thing for locker rooms and showers. But for now, I do think it should be left up to the businesses to decide on that. But that's not even that major of an issue. It used to be fine until people made a fuss about that.

 

[visibleghost]

transgender rghts are not negotiable we have a right to live and exist in public. if you don't think we should 100% have the same rights as anyone else then guess what !!! you are evil !!

and you know who made a fuss about it? cis people who hate trans pwople :') none of this would be an issue if transphobia didnt exist.

and in myyyy opinion business shouldnt be allowed to discriminate ppl but Yeah Well Okiedokie

 

[seliph]

I'm honestly past caring...

If you don't care about trans people why do you even think your opinion matters here? Thx for at least admitting you care about clubs more than trans people.

As for kids "being too young": they aren't. Kids can know that they're gay or bi or that they're transgender at very young ages, but especially now that we have resources and knowledge of sexuality and gender. I knew I was gay when I was 13-14ish, but it wasn't the first time that I realized I was attracted to dudes. It was my first time knowing that being gay was indeed a thing and that I'm not broken or something. This isn't a far-fetched thing to happen with gender as well as sexuality.

And you know what? Even if they are too young to fully know, let them figure it out for their damn selves. If a kid is mortified of going to the women's room one month and feels fully comfortable in it the next, who cares? They're just going to take a leak.

Now this is a problem with today's society. They are unwillingly to compromise. What you just said (no offense btw) sounded like it's a bad thing to take the middle ground, and it implies that "if you're not with the transgender people on the debate, then you are an evil person". People should be willingly to compromise. Instead, people these days would rather take issues as 100/0 or 0/100 instead of 50/50 or even 1/99 and 99/1. I know some stuff are not negotiable, but today's social issues (as well as fiscal issues) are negotiable. A bigger concern than the whole bathroom debate is how divided our nation really is. On every issue, they are unwillingly to compromise. And they attack both each other and anyone who refuses to take sides. The fact that they choose the be this way and continue on their decisions is only gonna contribute to our deeply divided nation.

I try to avoid taking sides by not believing in forcing either way. And now you guys are giving me a negative reputation for standing up for what I believe. I cannot tolerate this. It's okay to believe what you guys believe, but under no exception is it okay to make others feel bad for what they believe.

It's also worth mentioning that there are more important issues than the bathroom debate. It's been mentioned several times this thread. I do remember posting a picture of the bathrooms where toilets are separated into different rooms than stalls. I do think it is a good idea all along. I was also suggesting the same thing for locker rooms and showers. But for now, I do think it should be left up to the businesses to decide on that. But that's not even that major of an issue. It used to be fine until people made a fuss about that.

People's freaking lives are not something to "make a compromise" on and "negotiate" but especially not those who already have it like crap. That's... a really disturbing and downright evil-sounding thing to say.

Sure there are "worse issues" but like it's been said several times in here: this is still an issue no matter how unimportant you think it is and it's not something miniscule that should be pushed aside.

As for your reputation, no one can give you a reputation but yourself. If you have a bad reputation now, that's on you. You're the one digging yourself in a hole.

Now since you ignore it when VG asks you maybe I'll try it out: If trans people aren't supposed to pee in the bathroom that matches their gender, where should they pee? This goes to everyone who supports or "doesn't care" about this law btw.