Mafia CHATBOT MAFIA...Chapter 5: The Glitch... ENDGAME?

[BetsySundrop]

Tomorrow I'll be rereading and trying to figure out everything more. For now, signing off for the night. And don't sweat frosty. Kiko will probably be doing the same thing as me...reading the heck out of dolby and dan and trying to figure out if it would more likely be one of them.

 

[FrostyAlmonds]

Reflecting on it. I find it a little too weird how buddy buddy you two have gotten almost instantly. This alliance really seems to stem from an agreement about a Dan+Dolby maf duo but I just don't see it????

I still feel like Kiko is our maf but I'm starting to get a lot more uncomfortable about you Betsy.

Dropping your suspicion on Kiko and voting him the item. Can you explain why you changed your mind beyond him seeming more solvey? I dunno you seemed really confident about your power's results on day 3 but now it's like 'maybe' it would help but I'm okay with trusting Kiko going into day 3 over me??? It's really not sitting right with me that you feel ready to let Kiko have it especially since he was giving the item to you.

Post automatically merged: Apr 16, 2023

That's going to be my final thought of tonight but I'm going to think about this more tomorrow.

 

[kikotoot]

I've funnily also been doing lots of reading and was about to go to bed but then saw you posted here. I won't get into all my things just quite yet or respond to you directly yet frosty (wasn't saving quotes, just literally putting ideas on a piece of paper), but your post here does genuinely feel very townie. I have lots to say before voting ends tomorrow, and more importantly, there is lots I need to hear.

Post automatically merged: Apr 16, 2023

oof am I gonna make myself type it all now instead

Post automatically merged: Apr 16, 2023

I think I just talked myself into that wow

Post automatically merged: Apr 16, 2023

nvm, I ended up getting a story idea and started jotting that down instead I get too creative late at night

no one should feel the need to respond to or pay any mind to that post of mine really^ more just a "get your tinfoil hats ready" post so you're not too caught off guard tomorrow

 

[BetsySundrop]

Reflecting on it. I find it a little too weird how buddy buddy you two have gotten almost instantly. This alliance really seems to stem from an agreement about a Dan+Dolby maf duo but I just don't see it????

It's not instant, at all, lol. Basic line of thought went-
Start of d2, dolby goes from sus on dan at eod 1, to suddenly feeling 'more towny' about dan. Big flip. Dolby cannot say why or talk about the item and also won't say anything more about his role.

Also- dan started d2 being willing to work with dolby and giving him power vote, again.

I assumed something happened over night to impact their reads on each other or confidence in each other.

I put in a post that either they were maf team, or town, didn't know which. One could be maf and fooling the other one. Tessa reads better than I do, and leaned toward maf reading kiko end of d1. This made me think it more likely I should trust tessas gut and the overnight happenings, and that maf was somewhere in frosty kiko.

Kiko's role fishing and your posts to clear yourself had me more eyeballing kiko.

To protect against possible dan dolby team, or the possibility of one of them fooling the other somehow in the night phase, I thought someone else should have the item.

I thought of one specific mech scenario where my role would be vital, so decided to campaign for item, leaving bigger and bigger hints about my pr.

Dolby's inaccuracies (not just one, which hey, everyone makes mistakes all the time in this game, esp me, but mutiple) in his long read on me made me really uncomfortable. Sometimes it is used to frame someone. Not worried about being framed so much as worried about Dolby's motives.

Kiko was also asking for the item, and after some pr allusions, I realized yeah, town probably all has powers of some sort. I tried to map out exactly how much my role would help f3. In some instances - very much. But in other instances- not so much.

Struggled with decision, decided giving it to someone other than dan or dolby was important. Did not want f3 to be dan, dolby, and another town with dolby saying trust me, vote x, I can't tell you why. Especially if maf is one of them and has the ability to fool in the night phase.

I still feel like Kiko is our maf but I'm starting to get a lot more uncomfortable about you Betsy.

I've been thinking kiko tr more today. Am not worried about sus on me. It's frustrating, can't prove I'm town, but will try to do better putting my head maps of going from point a to point b out there so you can see how I got there.
But make your own reads, because while I try to be accurate, I am really bad at figuring out who/what is wolfy and who/what is townie.

Dropping your suspicion on Kiko and voting him the item. Can you explain why you changed your mind beyond him seeming more solvey? I dunno you seemed really confident about your power's results on day 3 but now it's like 'maybe' it would help but I'm okay with trusting Kiko going into day 3 over me???

I outlined it above. You can see exactly how I got there.

It's really not sitting right with me that you feel ready to let Kiko have it especially since he was giving the item to you.

If you look at the voting thread, you can see I voted to give kiko the item first. Then I came here to post why, and as I was typing my explanation got a notification, so posted my explanation and then saw kiko had voted me the item. I think if kiko is town, we might both be thinking about potentials in f3. Kiko giving me back the item is even more towny to me, and I don't need the item to be useful.

 

[BetsySundrop]

Oh- and I found the post where I got mixed up on the theories.

whoops i didn’t realize this game had open nights. a bit busy tonight sorry

there’s def just one mafia with a vig

At the time I read it as, 1 maf with the vig, as in, if it's 1 maf, they would have that one shot power.

Now rereading I see he meant that with the vig (raven) in the game, there would only be 1maf.

Do I have that right?

 

[Damniel]

Oh- and I found the post where I got mixed up on the theories.



At the time I read it as, 1 maf with the vig, as in, if it's 1 maf, they would have that one shot power.

Now rereading I see he meant that with the vig (raven) in the game, there would only be 1maf.

Do I have that right?

this is correct

Post automatically merged: Apr 16, 2023

reading the thread i’m pretty sure the mafia is between betsy kiko and frosty. but from everyone’s thoughts/confidence of power rules/item usage, it doesn’t seem like frosty has that much knowledge on it. similar to tessa d1, im not getting any sense at frosty having tmi. i think they’re just town tbh

i read the political mafia game and don’t think it’s dolby. i’m also leaning towards the item vote bc of it

my elim vote is between kiko and betsy. i think they had the most sketch EoDs. I reallyyyyy don’t like kiko’s constant prodding of role powers, when at many points i feel it unnecessary. And with Betsy, while i think i understand what’s she’s currently implying as to why she needs the item, it doesn’t really match up with the behavior of d1 imo. i also kind it just really weird how the two just swapped votes on each other. idk what to make of that yet but I just think the maf is between them

 

[FrostyAlmonds]

Sorry, I'm not saying the suspicion about Dolby/Dan was instant, just that you let your Kiko suspicion drop too quickly (because, I assume, he brought up the Dolby/Dan team). I don't really see why Kiko offering to let you have the item is a reason to say, no I trust you to have it. Again, why do you think Kiko is a stronger f3 candidate over yourself? Why do you trust Kiko that he is 100% town where you would be willing to let him take a potential shield and live over you when you were fairly desperate to have any shot to stay protected over night? Just because he voted to give you the item doesn't mean much when you can take back votes incredibly easily and there is still hours before EoD. This could have just been a method to gain your trust, which worked pretty well.

I was seriously considering giving you my vote too and I thought I made it obvious of that I was. But now that you dropped your campaign that quickly makes it seem more like you were bluffing about how useful your power would be in day 3 and I don't know what to think about you anymore.

And I dunno, a lot of this doesn't add up with why you chose to vote me black, it's a little inconsistent. Why are you voting me over Dolby right now? It just seems a little strange that you are arguing a fear about a Dan and Dolby team because of their sudden change of perspective on each other but then are like, lol voting Frosty. IDK. It seems more like you voting me was to get a now trusting Kiko to bandwagon vote me as well because we were already are really suspicious of each other.

I know you're saying you plan on re inspecting Dolby and Dan today. But it's mafia so I'm going to read between the lines and question why you put that vote on me first just because you don't town read me, when you're telling me a different story about being concerned about Dolby and how he used the item.

(Not offended on a personal level that you voted me of course.)

 

[BetsySundrop]

And with Betsy, while i think i understand what’s she’s currently implying as to why she needs the item, it doesn’t really match up with the behavior of d1 imo.

What behavior specifically, because if you understood my implications, you wouldn't put me at the bottom of tr. I'd be somewhere at the top.

And it matches exactly my behavior from eod 1. Didn't want to croak, dropped hints.

I'm thinking my item campaign, if understood by maf and not understood by town, is putting me in the position of being wagonned today so they can take out a pr.

It's not gonna happen. I'm town and refuse to be miselim.

Did you not think kiko was more of a tr than frosty yesterday?

You seem to trust dolby because of a former game mention. Is there any other reason? If dolby was alluding to this in thread, he could be a)honest and town, b)dishonest and maf, c)putting you in his towncore because of a previous game, and not realizing he was talking to maf (could be you...).

Post automatically merged: Apr 16, 2023

I know you're saying you plan on re inspecting Dolby and Dan today. But it's mafia so I'm going to read between the lines and question why you put that vote on me first just because you don't town read me, when you're telling me a different story about being concerned about Dolby and how he used the item.

I put all of my reasons in the giant outline wall post I had to finger type. It was brutal.

It was only process of elimination.

If 1 maf, we get only 1 chance at miselim, and my poe brought me to frosty or kiko.

That's it. I got nothing better than poe, IF dan and dolby are correct about each other.

I do still think a single maf would be down to either kiko/frosty/dan. I don't believe a single maf would be dolby.

Frosty, completely discounting me, who would you think was a single maf? I believe you and I agree about dolby not being the single maf?

But I still don't trust putting everything in the game into just one person (dolby). Too many past evil geniuses to do that. Sorry.

 

[Damniel]

What behavior specifically, because if you understood my implications, you wouldn't put me at the bottom of tr. I'd be somewhere at the top.

And it matches exactly my behavior from eod 1. Didn't want to croak, dropped hints.

I'm thinking my item campaign, if understood by maf and not understood by town, is putting me in the position of being wagonned today so they can take out a pr.

It's not gonna happen. I'm town and refuse to be miselim.

Did you not think kiko was more of a tr than frosty yesterday?

You seem to trust dolby because of a former game mention. Is there any other reason? If dolby was alluding to this in thread, he could be a)honest and town, b)dishonest and maf, c)putting you in his towncore because of a previous game, and not realizing he was talking to maf (could be you...).

Post automatically merged: Apr 16, 2023

I put all of my reasons in the giant outline wall post I had to finger type. It was brutal.

It was only process of elimination.

If 1 maf, we get only 1 chance at miselim, and my poe brought me to frosty or kiko.

That's it. I got nothing better than poe, IF dan and dolby are correct about each other.

I do still think a single maf would be down to either kiko/frosty/dan. I don't believe a single maf would be dolby.

Frosty, completely discounting me, who would you think was a single maf? I believe you and I agree about dolby not being the single maf?

But I still don't trust putting everything in the game into just one person (dolby). Too many past evil geniuses to do that. Sorry.

i did not say i TRd Kiko. I just said that my theory that Kiko knew there was 2 maf right off the bat was no longer valid, bc i’m p sure there’s just 1 maf

all i can say is that i understand dolby’s thought process more. i can see a greater sense of solving

 

[FrostyAlmonds]

Okay, I could understand why you voted me in that situation. I'm still not really feeling you on pretty much townreading Kiko that easily just for giving you the vote (first) and you not taking it but giving it to him. If I gave you the item vote right away would you be voting Kiko black right now instead of me?

Post automatically merged: Apr 16, 2023

Frosty, completely discounting me, who would you think was a single maf? I believe you and I agree about dolby not being the single maf?

I thought it was obvious I think it's Kiko.

I have already expressed since yesterday Kiko was someone I could not read, I was not neutral, he was either very town, or very maf. And reflecting on how things have progressed, I can only see maf now (or a very I'm here to ruin town persona).

Spent a lot of day 1 talking about waiting for EoD and last minute vote switches to get maf leads. Got one in the form of Tessa, BUT, Tessa happened to switch to the vote he wanted so it was a benefit to him. Didn't mention it at all. I directly ask him his thoughts (before Tessa flipped), he ignored me. Day 2 starts I bring it up again asking for answers because this is why he became mymaf suspect. ignores me until later, where he only addresses why he didn't think Tessa switching felt townie (which literally has no weight because we know she's town now), didn't address my concern that Tessa switched to the vote he wanted.

Then of course there was the role fishing since day 1. First one to bring it up and surprised no one would be willing to talk about theirs. Didn't volunteer to talk about his, continued to press everyone to talk about theirs and when he started getting pressed, had a very thin excuse.

Further more, his game yesterday with the item was all over the place. It seemed he was loose and uncaring about the item vote, I quoted all three posts before, but if you want me to dig it back up again I will. But tl;dr he went Dolby, Betsy, Kiko in a very quick span of time without much reasoning. Seemed more like he was trying to get feelers on if he should try to appease you or Dolby, or if anyone would jump on his wagon (and I guess specifically me considering he directly asked me for the blue vote...the first time not the second time when he joked about not voting me black).

All of this put together is way too wild for me to see town.

Post automatically merged: Apr 16, 2023

Can I ask why your opinion on me changed when you originally said I could only be maf in a 2 person game but now think I could be solo maf?

Post automatically merged: Apr 16, 2023

And for the record, I still am leaning on Kiko. But I can't ignore the thought of you either made a questionable decision to let your guard down as a townie, or made a very bad slip as mafia.

 

[BetsySundrop]

i did not say i TRd Kiko. I just said that my theory that Kiko knew there was 2 maf right off the bat was no longer valid, bc i’m p sure there’s just 1 maf

I worded it wrong. I meant, I thought kiko was more town yesterday, trying to solve and figure things out. I was asking if you didn't think so. As in, did you agree with how I saw it or did you disagree?

 

[Damniel]

I worded it wrong. I meant, I thought kiko was more town yesterday, trying to solve and figure things out. I was asking if you didn't think so. As in, did you agree with how I saw it or did you disagree?

i disagree. i think frosty is bringing up a good point about how much kiko has tried to learn as much about our roles while still being very vague with his. and i feel his read on me has been “i’ve been playing very safe/hasn’t been doing bold plays” is because I haven’t been blurting out hints to my role. i think all this role talk is largely unnecessary bc it’s clear we all have some ability and we can’t fully discuss it anyway. i feel like the role fishing is for purposes of blue snipping

 

[BetsySundrop]

Can I ask why your opinion on me changed when you originally said I could only be maf in a 2 person game but now think I could be solo maf?

This is mostly because in the beginning you were fairly quiet (compared to others), and I felt like others were less of a tr (at least to me). You did make it clear it was your first town game, so I get the caution. But I couldn't see a lone maf being that quiet d1.

But d2 is different. After poe, i had you/kiko left and I had to look back and revisit all my reads. Came to some possibilities, like maybe a quiet d1 was just avoiding town attention? I do keep going back and forth on people. It's the circular thinking trap that always gets me.

The stronger reads/posts today have me thinking either - town trying to clear, or maf trying to redirect.

Okay, I could understand why you voted me in that situation. I'm still not really feeling you on pretty much townreading Kiko that easily just for giving you the vote (first) and you not taking it but giving it to him. If I gave you the item vote right away would you be voting Kiko black right now instead of me?

I don't 100% tr anyone, ever. I did think kiko was more trying to figure out roles to decide who to give the item to. Role fishing makes me uncomfortable, but I once played a game where a townie's role fishing was used to frame them.

So while role fishing is bad, in cases where it appears everyone has a role, it could be town actually trying to solve.

There was another post kiko had about the nk being tessa and using it to somehow put them in a bad light? I need to find that...I was reading that as more town.

Right now, if it's just 1 maf, I don't think it's dolby, but it's stupid to put everything on 1 person. Nobody was giving me the item, and I just never trust dan, so it was you or kiko, and you were my strongest sus at the time, so it went to kiko.

Spent a lot of day 1 talking about waiting for EoD and last minute vote switches to get maf leads. Got one in the form of Tessa, BUT, Tessa happened to switch to the vote he wanted so it was a benefit to him.

I did see you pointing this out, but I wasn't sure why it would be an issue d2? Tessa last minute vote flip might have been an issue if tessa hadn't been nk. But I didn't see why it would be an issue after she flipped town?

Let me know if I'm missing something?

Then of course there was the role fishing since day 1. First one to bring it up and surprised no one would be willing to talk about theirs. Didn't volunteer to talk about his, continued to press everyone to talk about theirs and when he started getting pressed, had a very thin excuse.

I get this. But as above, I've seen role fishing also be used to frame an innocent town.

Seemed more like he was trying to get feelers on if he should try to appease you or Dolby, or if anyone would jump on his wagon (and I guess specifically me considering he directly asked me for the blue vote...the first time not the second time when he joked about not voting me black).

I didn't see this, but I will look back. I am easily played...lol.

And for the record, I still am leaning on Kiko. But I can't ignore the thought of you either made a questionable decision to let your guard

I may be guilty of this. 100%. I am a terrible townie and tend to be easily led and make really bad mistakes. I can only say, I'm learning. The hard way.

Post automatically merged: Apr 16, 2023

i disagree. i think frosty is bringing up a good point about how much kiko has tried to learn as much about our roles while still being very vague with his. and i feel his read on me has been “i’ve been playing very safe/hasn’t been doing bold plays” is because I haven’t been blurting out hints to my role. i think all this role talk is largely unnecessary bc it’s clear we all have some ability and we can’t fully discuss it anyway. i feel like the role fishing is for purposes of blue snipping

Do you understand why I wouldn't want everything to be in the hands of 1 person? I know you trust dolby, but I really dislike the idea of dolby in f3 saying just trust me.

 

[Damniel]

Do you understand why I wouldn't want everything to be in the hands of 1 person? I know you trust dolby, but I really dislike the idea of dolby in f3 saying just trust me.

like yeah i get your perspective, but i don’t think the item is as game breaking as you think it will/has been

 

[BetsySundrop]

like yeah i get your perspective, but i don’t think the item is as game breaking as you think it will/has been

It wasn't the item. It was the potential for the item holder to be safe from nk.

 

[FrostyAlmonds]

I'm going to reiterate again, because in hindsight I could have stated it clearly. Please don't take me as being silent as a maf strategy OR clear me as town. This is coming from Frosty the human and not Frosty the player. It genuinely was my shortcoming as a person.

 

[BetsySundrop]

i think i understand what you’re trying to say but also putting together what everyone else is saying and this makes it a balancing nightmare

The balancing nightmare...truly insane.

I think the only way a 1 maf would balance everything is some sort of strong power.

I feared an xtra snipe of some sort. It seems consensus that's not the case.

Then thought- possibly some sort of protection from a nighttime read on them? As in - what if a read on them would come back wrong? Or what if they could somehow fool people at night in some other way?

Sort of like when tessa could chat at night in monster mash. She fooled ace and he went down to the very end steadfastly defending maf.

I just don't understand how things would balance out.

 

[FrostyAlmonds]

I don't really see how you think I could be giving stronger reads today when I have been arguing the same points since yesterday. The only thing that's changed was my opinion on you, where yesterday I concluded I couldn't keep my town read on you in a 1 maf game, but still didn't think you were mafia and listening to your pov, to today seriously doubling back on that take because of a pretty big action you took that I had to question.

 

[BetsySundrop]

I'm going to reiterate again, because in hindsight I could have stated it clearly. Please don't take me as being silent as a maf strategy OR clear me as town. This is coming from Frosty the human and not Frosty the player. It genuinely was my shortcoming as a person.

Well I appreciate the non-quiet today. We have to vote tonight. I really don't want to vote wrong.

 

[FrostyAlmonds]

I don't 100% tr anyone, ever. I did think kiko was more trying to figure out roles to decide who to give the item to. Role fishing makes me uncomfortable, but I once played a game where a townie's role fishing was used to frame them.

Then I'm asking again. Why are you letting Kiko take the item over you when he was willing to let you have it? You obviously trust him enough to be town that you don't feel the need to take it. I get not wanting Dolby to have it, and if it was a situation where it was ONLY between Kiko and Dolby for item, fine, I see you picking Kiko (but also kind of not because you think Kiko is solo town and not Dolby), BUT the option for you to receive the item was there and you chose to not have it.