New feature request; pronouns!

[toenuki]

(I'm sorry if you're not opposing of neopronouns in this reply, I'm reading it as kind of ambiguous so excuse me if I'm misinterpreting your intentions in this, but I'd still like to get this off my chest regardless if only for others who could be one of those people within the community that you're talking about)

So I get this, and I could understand the feel of frustration at people, who in your opinion, seem to be making it harder for the community you're defending to be taken seriously. I've caught myself being guilty of it before, but it's important to think about Why exactly you want to police the people to suppress their expression in fear of you looking silly, instead of fighting to have them taken more seriously by opposers? I feel it's similar to more masculine gay men feeling spite towards more feminine gay men for fitting oppressive stereotypes. Or binary trans people who make efforts to try and convert transphobes by appealing to their existing sensibilities and ideas of the gender binary, being upset at the existence of gender-nonconforming people because it opens up the discussion that those sensibilities are actually in fact, completely wrong and it puts a damper in that binary trans persons efforts. But it's important not to become a gatekeeper only the sake of public image towards The Straights. You shouldn't make those """outliers""" of the community fight their own battles just because you'd afraid of shame of being seen with them, if that makes sense.

Oh, no worries! if im understanding this right...

im against neopronouns as they became just... bizarre over the years. i edited my post to clarify even more! anyone who is trans, nb, etc are perfectly cool. its the people who ARENT who created them for mockery or trends. they are annoying and painted a bad image years ago that took a while to heal (which made community members and activists angry)

 

[skylucario]

if this is implemented, i hope there will be an option to turn the field off/say ‘undisclosed’, as with the age field.


i don’t want people to assume stuff about me based upon my preferred pronouns; would prefer that they get to know me first. i like leaving it ambiguous for that reason. if anyone is *really* curious, it’s in my bio. would just rather not have it front and center.

 

[Chris]

i understand that mods don't want it to be added to sidebar bc it isnt game-related but i don't see why it can't be a profile option like gender and birthday.

We have not ruled out the possibility of eventually adding it to the profile 'About' page next to the existing gender field. The only thing we have made a hard decision on is that we will not be adding it anywhere on user posts.

 

[idiotdoomspiral]

i completely agree. i added my pronouns to my signature and i was really nervous about it because, with no actual option for it right now, i feel like it really "others" you. like on twitter, you can write your pronouns in your bio, but then transphobes will start referring to you as "pronouns in bio" and suddenly that's all you are, just because you don't want to be misgendered.

yeah this is exactly how i feel but i couldnt quite put it into words. on twitter ur seen as some kind of deranged person just because u want to express ur identity in some way when there isnt an official way to. tbt is definitely a more accepting and inclusive community but it still worries me enough to not mention it in my title/sig

 

[starlightsong]

I'm super late to finding this thread, read through the whole thing and I see the mods already said no to this suggestion--but I really really wish they'd reconsider. I mean, like others here have said, the user title literally already isn't game related so why can't it just be below that?? Or even in the little section that shows when you click someone's username, which, unlike signatures, works on mobile? I'm genderfluid and change between different pronouns from time to time but I never thought having them on here mattered until someone called me she, and it made me uncomfortable but I didn't wanna say anything because I didn't wanna be seen as weird or overreacting. And I just know the reason it happened is because of my avatar, which I don't really wanna change because it's art from my girlfriend that I've been using for years and I have no idea what I'd use in place of it. I also don't wanna stick my pronouns in my title because I feel awkward about it due to what cloudmask and soundgarden both mentioned, in addition to the fact that several people on this thread have been judgemental about how anyone who changes their pronouns frequently is supposedly using gender as an accessory and looking for attention! Like, I actually feel less comfortable here in general after having read through all the replies and just because some trans people don't see the need for a solution doesn't mean nobody does.

 

[seliph]

you've responded to multiple people. 5 people may like your comment, but i'm not dumb. there WAS a huge discourse. i will admit now not so much, but a while back (a few years) there was a lot (****i should have specified the 'actively')

i'm not sure what other sites or apps you use, but i've seen a good few people against neopronouns due to how it caused people to mock the community, and how some people created them to be trendy or straight up INSULT the community... it kinda goes back to that tumblr era people kinda think back on. many activist accounts dislike them now.

I'm ending the conversation here, this is not going to be a fight since we all agree with the thread. enjoy your days and nights

there was discourse, i wasn't denying that. i'm denying the community being actively against neopronouns. witnessing "a good few" isn't grounds to tell part of the community that the rest of us are actively against them. it's harmful and is doing nothing but driving us apart. i am glad you clarified especially since neopronouns are actually becoming more accepted nowadays.

the tumblr discourse you're referring to started with trolls from places like 4chan making accounts on tumblr and making bizarre claims that they identify as gods/demons/angels/royalty. it was a weird ploy against both otherkin and trans people that tried to paint the two as the same thing to outsiders - which worked - and pin the trans community against each other - which also worked. they'd insist that people refer to them as gods/etc using "pronouns" like "your highness" and "your holiness" and often become violently aggressive when people didn't. trans people with neopronouns somehow ended up taking a lot of very misplaced blame for this when, to no surprise, the real culprit was actual transphobes all along.

 

[toenuki]

there was discourse, i wasn't denying that. i'm denying the community being actively against neopronouns. witnessing "a good few" isn't grounds to tell part of the community that the rest of us are actively against them. it's harmful and is doing nothing but driving us apart. i am glad you clarified especially since neopronouns are actually becoming more accepted nowadays.

the tumblr discourse you're referring to started with trolls from places like 4chan making accounts on tumblr and making bizarre claims that they identify as gods/demons/angels/royalty. it was a weird ploy against both otherkin and trans people that tried to paint the two as the same thing to outsiders - which worked - and pin the trans community against each other - which also worked. they'd insist that people refer to them as gods/etc using "pronouns" like "your highness" and "your holiness" and often become violently aggressive when people didn't. trans people with neopronouns somehow ended up taking a lot of very misplaced blame for this when, to no surprise, the real culprit was actual transphobes all along.

That's what i said though. it was for people who were trendy or hateful- WE AGREED WITH EACHOTHER !!! neopronouns arent as common as before, but there were some damn bizarre ones back a few years. I'm glad we came to a conclusion though!

Post automatically merged: May 15, 2020

yeah this is exactly how i feel but i couldnt quite put it into words. on twitter ur seen as some kind of deranged person just because u want to express ur identity in some way when there isnt an official way to. tbt is definitely a more accepting and inclusive community but it still worries me enough to not mention it in my title/sig

twitter is insane im honestly not surprised.

 

[seliph]

That's what i said though. it was for people who were trendy or hateful- WE AGREED WITH EACHOTHER !!! neopronouns arent as common as before, but there were some damn bizarre ones back a few years

i don't think we did totally agree? especially the "i mean the weird ones like xer/xe/ xem" comment, i don't know if that's another matter of miscommunication but those and their variants like ze/xir are among the less, for lack of a better term, unusual neopronouns and have been around since before internet discourse was even a thing. i also don't think "trendiness" is an actual problem, i think people are experimenting with their gender/gender expression and that's just fine.

aside from that i'm literally just explaining the discourse.

 

[toenuki]

i don't think we did totally agree? especially the "i mean the weird ones like xer/xe/ xem" comment, i don't know if that's another matter of miscommunication but those and their variants like ze/xir are among the less, for lack of a better term, unusual neopronouns and have been around since before internet discourse was even a thing. i also don't think "trendiness" is an actual problem, i think people are experimenting with their gender/gender expression and that's just fine.

aside from that i'm literally just explaining the discourse.

People had an issue with xer/xem bc of the strangeness of it, since it wasnt what they were fighting for essentially. they were what made some people really hostile (though they arent super common now) and then the added 4chan stuff just made it worse. but neopronouns arent as used now so its not a super hot topic issue unlike a few years back

but overall im p much done with this conversation, we've kinda repeated eachother in some aspects. i mean no hostility, we're all kind here.

 

[seliph]

People had an issue with xer/xem bc of the strangeness of it, since it wasnt what they were fighting for essentially. they were what made some people really hostile (though they arent super common now) and then the added 4chan stuff just made it worse. but neopronouns arent as used now so its not a super hot topic issue unlike a few years back

but overall im p much done with this conversation, we've kinda repeated eachother in some aspects. i mean no hostility, we're all kind here.

sure they did, maybe i'm misinterpreting your posts as you yourself finding neopronouns inherently weird & therein lies the confusion

 

[toenuki]

sure they did, maybe i'm misinterpreting your posts as you yourself finding neopronouns inherently weird & therein lies the confusion

I wouldn't insult anyone with them, but its just not as important as establishing trans rights and they/them imo. they arent in massive demand anymore as many people ended up finding an identity and established themselves as they got older

 

[SheepMareep]

Neopronouns have had a bad reputation in previous years, as seliph explained, due to trolls from other online communities such as 4chan making fake accounts on social media sites such as tumblr or twitter to try and turn the use of pronouns into a joke. However, neopronouns like xer/xem are not the "weird" ones people were necessarily against from what *I* personally saw. What people were against were the trolls who would make very strange claims, while also joking about the other kin community, that they identified as a tree or as a bug and would make their pronouns some kind of pun on those and then stir up drama.

Gender is not a choice between 3 options. sometimes people do not fit into the she/her, he/him, or they/them pronouns when they think of their own identity. especially when they ate only just starting to think about it and explore their gender identity. It is important to respect a person's pronouns even if they are something you personally are not used to. Hence the reason why we need it to be a visible area for people to become accustomed to thinking of someone's pronouns and having the urge to ask prior to addressing them.
Looking at anyone you cannot directly tell their pronouns. Someone who is gender fluid or still trying to find and come to terms with their identity may change them frequently or every so often.

Of course there will always be *that* person who makes it into a joke and will try to make the pronoun section into something horrible to make fun of trans people. But it's important to foster an open and loving community that pushes those outliers to the side and gives trans/nb people the confidence and security they need to fully express themselves and be allowed to live without having to put on a mask and be someone else in a relatively safe area.

I did not even think of the fear that comes with putting your pronouns in an area that is not designated. I personally only recently started to use twitter for acnh and had no idea people would refer to those with pronouns in their bio like that. And it only solidifies my stance that we should have a section here after reading the experience and feelings of others.

I know its still being debated/that it is currently a "no" but even so I'll keep posting here and bringing up the discussion until it is added in. I understand why some mods may not want this section. I understand not everyone is aware of or open to the idea of trans/nb people existing. But as someone who is about to go into the health care field and fight for these same changes from the inside I cant give up the first time I'm told no. I'm stubborn when it comes to things that are important.

 

[seliph]

I know its still being debated/that it is currently a "no" but even so I'll keep posting here and bringing up the discussion until it is added in. I understand why some mods may not want this section. I understand not everyone is aware of or open to the idea of trans/nb people existing. But as someone who is about to go into the health care field and fight for these same changes from the inside I cant give up the first time I'm told no. I'm stubborn when it comes to things that are important.

my friend and i made a push for gender markers back in like 2016 (which i'm sure i can speak for both of us in saying pronouns are a much better option in hindsight) and it was far more dismissed and mocked than this thread is now so as far as i'm concerned, even with a "no" to the sidebar option the idea as a whole has made progress.

also just as a sidenote when i say dismissed and mocked i mean by the community in general, not necessarily staff members. i can't really remember what comments were made by who.

 

[SheepMareep]

my friend and i made a push for gender markers back in like 2016 (which i'm sure i can speak for both of us in saying pronouns are a much better option in hindsight) and it was far more dismissed and mocked than this thread is now so as far as i'm concerned, even with a "no" to the sidebar option the idea as a whole has made progress.

also just as a sidenote when i say dismissed and mocked i mean by the community in general, not necessarily staff members. i can't really remember what comments were made by who.

Yea I actually was happy to see how many people are in support and how docile the disagreements are. I was honestly ready to pull out the big guns society as a whole has made a LOT of progress in equality and being inclusive just in these past like 2 years. We are still far away from all of our goals in general however these small steps are still strides compared to say 50 years ago. It feels as though the world is in a healing period these past few years and I'm loving it.

&& yea, I can see mods staying out of these sort of conversations primarily to remain neutral and not risk losing people coming to the site. The silence from them aside from vris has been louder than anything imo.

 

[Damniel]

it seems we won't be getting a pronoun option in our sidebar unfortunately (i do this is reconsidered in the future), but i hope its at least added in the display you get when you hover over an avatar (don't know what it's called). things like our age and location can be displayed, so I don't see why pronoun option shouldn't be added too

 

[SarahsNY]

“I understand not everyone is aware of or open to the idea of trans/nb people existing.”

I’ve only browsed the thread a bit, but I just want to mention that’s a pretty judgmental and closed minded way of viewing people who are against this feature. I’m totally fine with trans/nb people, hell my sibling is a part of that group. I’m just not a fan of the feature because I find it ultimately uncessary and using it would honestly make me uncomfortable. I don’t really like advertising my gender, because I personally find it irrelevant to most conversation and don’t want it to be a factor. If someone wants to know me and ask, that’s fine! However, being a girl just isn’t relevent most of the time and I don’t want to advertise it.

You also need to consider the added pressure placed upon someone to “decide” what they are if there’s a very visible pronoun feature like this. If someone is questioning, they may just prefer to be seen as ambiguous online. While of course “undisclosed” may be an option, I can see people feeling like an outcast picking that option, and feeling as though it directly advertises their identity struggles.

There was a time I was very unsure if I was a girl or nb, and if I had to pick any option for this site I would had a bit of an existential crisis and it would have added to my struggle. I was already struggling with people irl, why can’t I just be a profile picture online? People don’t need to know my pronouns if it’s not relevant, I don’t want them to.

I know your heart is in the right place, but in my opinion there is a very good reason why mods are against this feature, and if it was implement myself and others would be uncomfortable, and not because of the transphobic, etc. reasons a lot of you seem to be assuming.

 

[seliph]

“I understand not everyone is aware of or open to the idea of trans/nb people existing.”

I’ve only browsed the thread a bit, but I just want to mention that’s a pretty judgmental and closed minded way of viewing people who are against this feature. I’m totally fine with trans/nb people, hell my sibling is a part of that group. I’m just not a fan of the feature because I find it ultimately uncessary and using it would honestly make me uncomfortable. I don’t really like advertising my gender, because I personally find it irrelevant to most conversation and don’t want it to be a factor. If someone wants to know me and ask, that’s fine! However, being a girl just isn’t relevent most of the time and I don’t want to advertise it.

You also need to consider the added pressure placed upon someone to “decide” what they are if there’s a very visible pronoun feature like this. If someone is questioning, they may just prefer to be seen as ambiguous online. While of course “undisclosed” may be an option, I can see people feeling like an outcast picking that option, and feeling as though it directly advertises their identity struggles.

There was a time I was very unsure if I was a girl or nb, and if I had to pick any option for this site I would had a bit of an existential crisis and it would have added to my struggle. I was already struggling with people irl, why can’t I just be a profile picture online? People don’t need to know my pronouns if it’s not relevant, I don’t want them to.

I know your heart is in the right place, but in my opinion there is a very good reason why mods are against this feature, and if it was implement myself and others would be uncomfortable, and not because of the transphobic, etc. reasons a lot of you seem to be assuming.

it's been mentioned the feature should be optional just like the current gender field.

 

[SarahsNY]

it's been mentioned the feature should be optional just like the current gender field.

I believe you’ve missed my point. As stated when I discussed an “undisclosed” option, having a specific field for it can pressure people heavily. Do I fill it out or not? Will I be weird if I don’t? Will I be weird if I do? There’s a lot that can go through someone’s head regarding this.

I’ve browsed the thread a bit more, and I think the current user title option we have is a great solution! If you feel your pronouns are necessary to display, you can! If they aren’t, just add a neat little joke or something. The title feature isn’t designated for anything, so it can be everything. People use it for so many reasons, so there’s no pressure to conform to a specific one.


Edit: Throughout this thread I’ve seen people claim this feature would make nobody uncomfortable, and that is simply untrue. As with a lot of discussions relating lgbt+ issues, blanket statements of any kind actively fight against some of those in the community you are trying to advocate for. And if anyone is wondering, I am a part of this community and have questioned my own identity and sexuality a lot, so I’m not completely uniformed or ignorant about these issues.

 

[mayortiffany]

I agree with the decision to not put pronouns into the sidebar, though I would support adding it onto user profiles if someone wishes to add that there. The user title and signature box are both places where people can specify that information if they wish.

If it were to be implemented in the future on the profile or otherwise, I would support making it hidable if people do not want to disclose that information for whatever reason. For privacy reasons for example, some people do not want to leave that much information about themselves online, and that should be respected.

 

[Antonio]

Wait, so you are uncomfortable by there even being an option to list the option even though it's optional and you don't have to but you may feel pressure too anyways.

It sounds more like a personal problem rather than a case against adding it because no one is forcing you to do anything. You are putting unnecessary pressure on yourself.

@SarahsNY