RE: what’s with this whole gender identity thing? Gender pronouns, ect?

[.: Meri :.]

I'd just like to expand a little on the cultural and historic presence of nonbinary and transgender people, just to emphasize that while it's becoming more accepted in current society, this isn't a new or "trendy" thing. Quick disclaimer that I'm not an expert on any of these subjects, so think of this more as a springboard to help with your own research, for anyone curious.

• Several Native American cultures have traditional ceremonial and social roles for gender-nonconforming people, broadly referred to as two-spirits. It's an umbrella term that encompasses a lot of terms and attitudes from many separate North American Indigenous cultures and was itself only coined in the 90's, but here's a non-comprehensive list of terms specific to certain Native American cultures.
• There's hijra in Hindu society, which generally includes gender-nonconforming people assigned male at birth (AMAB) as well as intersex people. While they are present in various religious texts and throughout history, and have often served religious ceremonial roles for weddings and births, they've become stigmatized in recent history due to British colonialism.
• Muxes in Zapotec cultures in Mexico are AMAB people who embrace feminine identities and are seen as a third gender.
• The Bugis ethnic group of Indonesia recognize five distinct genders—male, female, calalai (AFAB people who physically and socially present in masculine ways), calabai (AMAB people who occupy a traditionally feminine role whilst rejecting the restrictions placed upon women), and bissu (who fully encompass both the masculine and the feminine; they also serve an important spiritual role).
• In Sakalava society (a group indigenous to Madagascar), sekrata are AMAB people raised as girls after displaying feminine characteristics, who are viewed as sacred and occupy their own niche of gender roles.

I don't belong to any of these groups, so I can't speak to the nuances of these terms, but these are the basic definitions to my understanding. And these are far from the only cultures which have more than two genders!

I'd also like to list a few trans and gender-nonconforming historical figures! We've always been around.

• The Public Universal Friend was an American preacher born in 1752. After dealing with serious illness, they believed themselves to have died and been reanimated as the genderless Public Universal Friend by God. The Friend rejected gendered pronouns and dressed androgynously.
• The Chevalière d'Éon was a French soldier and spy, who infiltrated courts while presenting as a woman, and later in 1777 began living as a woman in her daily life, and was officially recognized by King Louis XVI as a woman. After returning to England, she then successfully petitioned the English court to be recognized legally as a woman.
• Claude Cahun (born 1894) was a writer and surrealist artist who used feminine pronouns for herself and described her gender as "neuter", also describing herself as experiencing fluidity between masculine and feminine. Fun fact, she also resisted Nazi occupation in World War II!
• Thomas Baty (born 1869) was an English writer and lawyer, who also published some works under the name Irene Clyde. They were a staunch feminist and strongly opposed the notion of a gender binary.

 

[nightglow]

I'd just like to expand a little on the cultural and historic presence of nonbinary and transgender people, just to emphasize that while it's becoming more accepted in current society, this isn't a new or "trendy" thing. Quick disclaimer that I'm not an expert on any of these subjects, so think of this more as a springboard to help with your own research, for anyone curious.

• Several Native American cultures have traditional ceremonial and social roles for gender-nonconforming people, broadly referred to as two-spirits. It's an umbrella term that encompasses a lot of terms and attitudes from many separate North American Indigenous cultures and was itself only coined in the 90's, but here's a non-comprehensive list of terms specific to certain Native American cultures.
• There's hijra in Hindu society, which generally includes gender-nonconforming people assigned male at birth (AMAB) as well as intersex people. While they are present in various religious texts and throughout history, and have often served religious ceremonial roles for weddings and births, they've become stigmatized in recent history due to British colonialism.
• Muxes in Zapotec cultures in Mexico are AMAB people who embrace feminine identities and are seen as a third gender.
• The Bugis ethnic group of Indonesia recognize five distinct genders—male, female, calalai (AFAB people who physically and socially present in masculine ways), calabai (AMAB people who occupy a traditionally feminine role whilst rejecting the restrictions placed upon women), and bissu (who fully encompass both the masculine and the feminine; they also serve an important spiritual role).
• In Sakalava society (a group indigenous to Madagascar), sekrata are AMAB people raised as girls after displaying feminine characteristics, who are viewed as sacred and occupy their own niche of gender roles.

I don't belong to any of these groups, so I can't speak to the nuances of these terms, but these are the basic definitions to my understanding. And these are far from the only cultures which have more than two genders!

I'd also like to list a few trans and gender-nonconforming historical figures! We've always been around.

• The Public Universal Friend was an American preacher born in 1752. After dealing with serious illness, they believed themselves to have died and been reanimated as the genderless Public Universal Friend by God. The Friend rejected gendered pronouns and dressed androgynously.
• The Chevalière d'Éon was a French soldier and spy, who infiltrated courts while presenting as a woman, and later in 1777 began living as a woman in her daily life, and was officially recognized by King Louis XVI as a woman. After returning to England, she then successfully petitioned the English court to be recognized legally as a woman.
• Claude Cahun (born 1894) was a writer and surrealist artist who used feminine pronouns for herself and described her gender as "neuter", also describing herself as experiencing fluidity between masculine and feminine. Fun fact, she also resisted Nazi occupation in World War II!
• Thomas Baty (born 1869) was an English writer and lawyer, who also published some works under the name Irene Clyde. They were a staunch feminist and strongly opposed the notion of a gender binary.

I'd like to make note, for culture respect, that many Native American teachings about male and female (not all) are about understanding the other gender's way of thinking and respecting the other gender. Changing Woman teaching is about women understanding the way of men for example. The challenges responsibilities that men face in their community and how they may process things differently emotionally. And though the link sourced was very umbrella-y I want to also note that many Native Tribes did have assigned roles based on sex. Not because other sex necessarily can't but for the purpose of organization and having all needs in the community met. I also want to mention, that Native Americans understood the importance and reality of the biological ability to birth. It was part of the tribes' survival. In fact some tribes, females were the leaders and owned most assets.
Many tribes saw the world as female, male, and those who understand the ways of both.

Not trying to upset anyone but I'm tired of many tribes that I know better about or the tribe my relatives came from being pointed at about teachings and they get misrepresented or the teaching so distorted that the point of the teaching is missed.

It's fine if a tribe has moved on from the teaching and decided to change it or whatever. I don't care at that point. But when pointing to historical, it does bother me because it is distortion. And Native American history has enough of that already and ripples into today.
Not to mention many teaching were lost because of the colonialism and horrible atrocities that happened through the decades.

Again, just a note (not upset, just wanted it mention somewhere in this thread since it was brought up)

 

[QueenCobra]

If you’re talking about why some people have pronouns on their bios…it’s to show support more than anything. That we aren’t going to assume anyone’s gender.
I am a cisgender woman who puts she/her pronouns in my bio— not simply because that’s how I identify, or to show my followers who I am, but to show that I support however anyone (followers or otherwise) identifies.

 

[Shawna]

If you’re talking about why some people have pronouns on their bios…it’s to show support more than anything. That we aren’t going to assume anyone’s gender.
I am a cisgender woman who puts she/her pronouns in my bio— not simply because that’s how I identify, or to show my followers who I am, but to show that I support however anyone (followers or otherwise) identifies.

Same here. I am also a cis-female, and I she/her pronouns on my profile to show people who I am and so they don't assume my gender ^^

 

[Alolan_Apples]

If you’re talking about why some people have pronouns on their bios…it’s to show support more than anything. That we aren’t going to assume anyone’s gender.
I am a cisgender woman who puts she/her pronouns in my bio— not simply because that’s how I identify, or to show my followers who I am, but to show that I support however anyone (followers or otherwise) identifies.

Even though I am nowhere in the LGBTQ+ population, I still would use preferred pronouns, to let others know that I am male. Not even primarily having female avatars or playing as female characters could determine my gender (and if it did, it would be more related to how I like having a girlfriend than actually being a girl). I also don’t like being referred to as “they”.

Though if there is one misidentification that does piss me off easily (kinda like how misgendering affects transgender people), it’s assuming that I’m a child. So I can see how bad misgendering a trans person or nonbinary person does.

 

[Croconaw]

Though if there is one misidentification that does piss me off easily (kinda like how misgendering affects transgender people), it’s assuming that I’m a child. So I can see how bad misgendering a trans person or nonbinary person does.

LOL Yeah, I hate being mistaken as a minor. I also happen to be non-binary and it’s the same feeling. I think the age thing is a bit more upsetting because it happens more often.

 

[Alolan_Apples]

Here is an interesting fact about misgendering people. If you think it’s evil to misgender someone intentionally, it’s always been a bad thing, even before transgender identity became an issue. But if you misgendered someone 20 or 30 years ago, it’s wrong for a completely different reason.

Back when I was a kid, calling a boy a “girl” would set him up to becoming a target of bullying (primarily verbal bullying and outcasting), even though this wasn’t common. And it’s not because of ignorance in transgender issues. It’s because of the stereotypes and double standards related to gender back then. Now calling a boy a “girl” would be offensive for the fact that you’re not respecting his identity. Even if he was a cis-male, it would still offend him because he doesn’t want to be a girl in an age sex and gender are separable.

If you think I’m inaccurate, let me know.

 

[seliph]

Here is an interesting fact about misgendering people. If you think it’s evil to misgender someone intentionally, it’s always been a bad thing, even before transgender identity became an issue. But if you misgendered someone 20 or 30 years ago, it’s wrong for a completely different reason.

Back when I was a kid, calling a boy a “girl” would set him up to becoming a target of bullying (primarily verbal bullying and outcasting), even though this wasn’t common. And it’s not because of ignorance in transgender issues. It’s because of the stereotypes and double standards related to gender back then. Now calling a boy a “girl” would be offensive for the fact that you’re not respecting his identity. Even if he was a cis-male, it would still offend him because he doesn’t want to be a girl in an age sex and gender are separable.

If you think I’m inaccurate, let me know.

misgendering a cis person and misgendering a trans person have very different connotations and are not comparable.

"girl" being an insult to a boy/man is a product of misogyny and homophobia teaching us that women and femininity are weak/lesser. it doesn't have anything to do with transness and no one actually goes "did you just assume my/their gender!?" in real life.

 

[Alolan_Apples]

misgendering a cis person and misgendering a trans person have very different connotations and are not comparable.

"girl" being an insult to a boy/man is a product of misogyny and homophobia teaching us that women and femininity are weak/lesser. it doesn't have anything to do with transness and no one actually goes "did you just assume my/their gender!?" in real life.

As you pointed it out, it’s still an offensive insult even if it has nothing to do with ignorance in trans identity.

 

[seliph]

As you pointed it out, it’s still an offensive insult even if it has nothing to do with ignorance in trans identity.

i don't see it as an insult at all actually, people just use it as one similarly to how people use "gay". if someone finds the idea of being a woman offensive they have bigger problems.

 

[Alolan_Apples]

i don't see it as an insult at all actually, people just use it as one similarly to how people use "gay". if someone finds the idea of being a woman offensive they have bigger problems.

That is true. If someone finds the idea of being a woman offensive, that’s bad to both cis-women and trans-women. For trans-women, it’s transphobic. For cis-women, it’s more misogynist.

 

[idiotdoomspiral]

To argue in terms of 'basic biology', intersex isn't an abnormality. As an extra titbit most intersex people do not have 'obvious' signs of the fact and some may live their whole life without finding out..! It's important to recognise that while many of those who are intersex are transgender it does not make them any less 'cis' if they identify as such, which kinda punches a giant hole in the whole "you need (X) to be (X)" chromosome debate. Regardless, everyone will have hormonal differences, have individual traits more acknowledged in the opposite sex and I'm sure every single person has questioned their identity and/or Le Society gender roles at some point in their lives. Transitioning or going by alternative pronouns are just a couple of examples towards where people find that solution. It doesn't make it a quirky phase if they eventually revert back to their previous identity either - it's going to help the person learn more about themselves and hopefully they will also be able to embrace who they are without worrying over the idea of being gender-normative. It was brave of them to experiment in the first place.

 

[Goldi Locks]

..Heh, I'm thinking my culture may be rather different to the majority of people here.

Hey @KnoxUK if you want to chat, feel free to reach out x