Smash Bros Smash Bros Is Annoying Me

[Cress]

There's 1 thing that's really annoying me in this thread.
Tiers do matter, that's why they exist. Stop saying that they are meaningless.
Now if someone said that tiers in this game don't matter as much as in other games, then I can agree with that. Look at Zelda, she's bad. If you say otherwise you're in denial. If she goes against the best character (and it isn't sheik anymore so let's just go with Rosalina. idk if she actually is the best but let's just stick with that so I can explain stuff better), Zelda is going to lose 9/10 times. But honestly that's still better odds than some matchups in other games, at least there is a SMALL CHANCE for Zelda to win.
I'll also say that tier lists are not that accurate, especially with huge balance patches happening every month or 2, it's hard to get a good understanding at where every character is, ESPECIALLY the low/bottom tiers because barely anybody plays them. So if some random Palutena player beat some random Bayonetta player, that does not mean that Palutena is instantly better than Bayo and tier lists are full of lies and you should never trust them ever again because a Palutena beat a Bayo once and you're ignoring the other hundreds of Palutena players that consistently lose against Bayonetta players. (run-on sentences ftw)
Want a good example? Here, Waveguider vs Jaice. 2 of the best players in Australia and also 2 of the best players of their characters.

(If you don't have time to watch the whole thing, at least watch the match at 12:36, it's short and that always means a lot of funny stuff happens if it's short.)
Wii Fit loses the MU against Rosalina by a significant amount. So just because Waveguider beat Jaice doesn't mean Wii Fit is instantly better than Rosalina, this is just one of the few rare occurrences.
And I don't care if you beat every Rosalina, Cloud and Bayonetta on For Glory with Zelda or Palutena or whoever. It's For Glory, nothing on there accurately reflects what the actual game is like.

1 last rant:

Take ZeRo and some other random Sheik player. That random Sheik player could not even come close to ZeRo's skillset unless they practiced for months on end. Sheik is supposedly "S Tier". This does not mean everyone who plays Sheik will get free wins.

What were you even trying to prove with this? "If 2 people play the same character but 1 person is obviously better than the other the better player wins tiers don't exist."
This doesn't even relate, that's just general logic. Zero and random person could both main Jigglypuff and Zero would still win because he's the better player, character choice doesn't matter if both people are playing the same character.

 

[Ashtot]

There's 1 thing that's really annoying me in this thread.
Tiers do matter, that's why they exist. Stop saying that they are meaningless.
Now if someone said that tiers in this game don't matter as much as in other games, then I can agree with that. Look at Zelda, she's bad. If you say otherwise you're in denial. If she goes against the best character (and it isn't sheik anymore so let's just go with Rosalina. idk if she actually is the best but let's just stick with that so I can explain stuff better), Zelda is going to lose 9/10 times. But honestly that's still better odds than some matchups in other games, at least there is a SMALL CHANCE for Zelda to win.
I'll also say that tier lists are not that accurate, especially with huge balance patches happening every month or 2, it's hard to get a good understanding at where every character is, ESPECIALLY the low/bottom tiers because barely anybody plays them. So if some random Palutena player beat some random Bayonetta player, that does not mean that Palutena is instantly better than Bayo and tier lists are full of lies and you should never trust them ever again because a Palutena beat a Bayo once and you're ignoring the other hundreds of Palutena players that consistently lose against Bayonetta players. (run-on sentences ftw)
Want a good example? Here, Waveguider vs Jaice. 2 of the best players in Australia and also 2 of the best players of their characters.

(If you don't have time to watch the whole thing, at least watch the match at 12:36, it's short and that always means a lot of funny stuff happens if it's short.)
Wii Fit loses the MU against Rosalina by a significant amount. So just because Waveguider beat Jaice doesn't mean Wii Fit is instantly better than Rosalina, this is just one of the few rare occurrences.
And I don't care if you beat every Rosalina, Cloud and Bayonetta on For Glory with Zelda or Palutena or whoever. It's For Glory, nothing on there accurately reflects what the actual game is like.

1 last rant:

What were you even trying to prove with this? "If 2 people play the same character but 1 person is obviously better than the other the better player wins tiers don't exist."
This doesn't even relate, that's just general logic. Zero and random person could both main Jigglypuff and Zero would still win because he's the better player, character choice doesn't matter if both people are playing the same character.

tiers barely matter certain characters have certain aspects of them that are better than others but you can still beat rosalina as dk if you make better reads etc.

 

[Cress]

tiers barely matter certain characters have certain aspects of them that are better than others but you can still beat rosalina as dk if you make better reads etc.

Did you even read my post
DK is a good character and his MU against Rosa is about even so... what are you trying to say.
Another thing I hate about that phrase: it implies that there is a huge skill gap between both players. But most of the time you're going to be playing against people around the same skill level. So let's say a good Ness can beat Rosalina (that MU is terrible for Ness lmao), but can a god Ness beat a good Rosalina? Probably not unless they switch characters.

 

[DarkDesertFox]

What I think tiers don't really account for is characters that are bad matches against them. I can't imagine a single character that doesn't have a bad match for them. For instance, I struggle with many projectile characters when I play as Marth. Rosalina is one of my other mains and I struggle against experienced Yoshi players as her.

 

[Matt0106]

lol we went from DLC characters to whether a tier list matters or not xD

 

[Ashtot]

Did you even read my post
DK is a good character and his MU against Rosa is about even so... what are you trying to say.
Another thing I hate about that phrase: it implies that there is a huge skill gap between both players. But most of the time you're going to be playing against people around the same skill level. So let's say a good Ness can beat Rosalina (that MU is terrible for Ness lmao), but can a god Ness beat a good Rosalina? Probably not unless they switch characters.

no i didnt read your post

skill level doesnt matter, you can be skilled and screw up, it doesnt mean you arent good

pros screw up all the time and pros make good reads against their opponents all the time, they're quite evenly skilled but one triumphs for reasons other than tiers

 

[Cress]

skill level doesnt matter

tiers barely matter

So then how are wins determined, outfit color?

no i didnt read your post

...

 

[Mash]

I'm pretty sure they're 3 dollars, not 5. (No h8 m8.)

 

[Florence + The Machine]

If a character has to rely on reads to win, that shows that they're not well-equipped enough to fight that character, meaning that they are inherently worse. Tiers are made to show which characters are best equipped to fight the other characters. Saying they don't exist doesn't make sense because some characters will always have tools that are more effective against the other cast members.

 

[piichinu]

why is zelda considered the worst tho...i think shes good just hard to use

 

[Zigzag991]

Is Zelda the bamboozler of Smash?

 

[toadsworthy]

What I think tiers don't really account for is characters that are bad matches against them. I can't imagine a single character that doesn't have a bad match for them. For instance, I struggle with many projectile characters when I play as Marth. Rosalina is one of my other mains and I struggle against experienced Yoshi players as her.

Whenever I play as G&W and the person chooses Cloud.... I contemplate killing myself right then and there lol

 

[Red Cat]

To be honest, I mostly agree with the OP. I mostly stopped playing Smash because I got tired of people using downloadable characters against me in online play. Nintendo has every right to sell DLC, but for a game as competitive as Smash, giving people who are willing and able to pay more money a competitive advantage just ruins the game. It doesn't even matter whether DLC characters are good or bad. Every character is different, and I can't even try the DLC characters out for myself to see whether they are good or whether they suck unless I buy them. It's hard to even figure out what my opponents can do with them since I can't even try to practice with them and see what their moves are. Just giving the opponent more choices for characters is a competitive advantage even if the DLC characters are considered to be not as good, since a good player might really like that character's style of fighting. My opponent who shells out money can pick any character I can, but I can't pick some characters that he or she can. This is absolutely paying for an advantage. Like I said before, Nintendo has the right to sell DLC like this, but I think it really does put a big dent in Smash's reputation as a competitive fighting game when people can pay to receive an advantage over those who don't pay.

 

[Cress]

why is zelda considered the worst tho...i think shes good just hard to use

She isn't the worst, but she is pretty bad. Slow, tall/easy to hit and combo, light so she dies early, small characters can avoid almost all of her attacks, grab is bad (not Bayonetta bad, but still bad. Lucas' grab is faster, has more range, and has more rewards from his grab. AKA better in every way compared to Zelda's), and Din's hinders more than it helps.
But all of her smash attacks are really solid, she has great sheild pressure, is scary offstage, and she has nice throw combos.

 

[Antonykun]

...What did i just get into?
Ok first of all having having Dlc Characters, In this case Ryu/Cloud/Bayonetta is actually a good thing.

For one, you are not forced into playing as them. There are 10 characters from the top of my head that are top/high tier in this game that come free with the game. Secondly if you need practice against them go find someone in your community, whether it is offline or online, that plays these dlc characters, and play against them a lot so you can get better at dealing with them. If you don't have to buy them nor you are not prepared for them then DLC characters are of no trouble.

(BTW. Zelda is really bad, like her entire kit revolves around being needlessly precise or else she gets punished hard by everything and her reward isn't even THAT good, It's about on par with most heavyweights who are mostly not good in smash 4, she definitely the worst character in the game if you consider Viability an equation of Effectiveness divided by Effort)

 

[Cress]

ANTONY OUT OF ALL THE TIMES TO COME IN HERE YOU DO IT WHEN I'M BEING A ZELDA OPTIMIST

 

[Red Cat]

For one, you are not forced into playing as them. There are 10 characters from the top of my head that are top/high tier in this game that come free with the game. Secondly if you need practice against them go find someone in your community, whether it is offline or online, that plays these dlc characters, and play against them a lot so you can get better at dealing with them. If you don't have to buy them nor you are not prepared for them then DLC characters are of no trouble.

I know there are plenty of good characters outside of DLC, but that was not the point of my post. I know I don't have to use a DLC character to be good, but it is more difficult for me to be good given that I have less options available to me to use. If I want to play competitively online, I am forced to play against those characters even though I don't have the ability to play as those characters. That is an advantage for those who pay and a disadvantage for those who don't. I suppose I could ask someone to show me how those characters work, but I'd feel kind of stupid asking "Hey can you show me all the moves for this character because I don't have him/her unlocked?" That doesn't fix the point I made above either.

I would be okay if there was an option that I could play only against people who don't use DLC, but of course that is not available because Nintendo wants me to have to spend money to have a level playing field.

 

[Antonykun]

I know there are plenty of good characters outside of DLC, but that was not the point of my post. I know I don't have to use a DLC character to be good, but it is more difficult for me to be good given that I have less options available to me to use. If I want to play competitively online, I am forced to play against those characters even though I don't have the ability to play as those characters. That is an advantage for those who pay and a disadvantage for those who don't. I suppose I could ask someone to show me how those characters work, but I'd feel kind of stupid asking "Hey can you show me all the moves for this character because I don't have him/her unlocked?" That doesn't fix the point I made above either.

I would be okay if there was an option that I could play only against people who don't use DLC, but of course that is not available because Nintendo wants me to have to spend money to have a level playing field.

Like i said face them in battle, you WILL be able to adapt, seconds into the match you will be able to get a grasp of what this character's neutral looks like and the rest will come naturally. I don't own Cloud but I can hold my own against him because i took my time and faced plenty of cloud players both online and offline and either environment works.

ANTONY OUT OF ALL THE TIMES TO COME IN HERE YOU DO IT WHEN I'M BEING A ZELDA OPTIMIST

:secretkpop:

 

[Dim]

She isn't the worst, but she is pretty bad. Slow, tall/easy to hit and combo, light so she dies early, small characters can avoid almost all of her attacks, grab is bad (not Bayonetta bad, but still bad. Lucas' grab is faster, has more range, and has more rewards from his grab. AKA better in every way compared to Zelda's), and Din's hinders more than it helps.
But all of her smash attacks are really solid, she has great sheild pressure, is scary offstage, and she has nice throw combos.

Pretty ironic considering the discussion of the thread started out as "cloud being op"

 

[Jp_]

Whenever I play as G&W and the person chooses Cloud.... I contemplate killing myself right then and there lol

I know right, it is very annoying. Especially when you can bring these dlc's into STATS