Some questions about non-binary genders

[Alolan_Apples]

While I wouldn’t debate on how many genders there are since that is a touchy subject, I am curious about the non-binary genders and how society changed over the last six years.

1. To those who believe there are more than two genders, exactly how many are there? I wouldn’t take you seriously if you said like 100, but I can if you say 10.
2. What lead to the creation of the non-binary genders? I wonder if gender inequality and strict parenting in historic times are part of the reason as well.
3. Why do some people get easily offended when there’s a dispute in number of genders? I like to know both sides of the story (like why do non-binary people get offended by people who say that there are two genders and why people who believe in the binary system get offended if someone else says otherwise).
4. Why are more and more people changing their gender in recent times? What are some internal and external factors that cause this?
5. Most importantly, how does multiple genders work? Like is it based on a spectrum, or is there some other factors that make different non-binary genders different to others? Example of this is what’s the difference between androgynous and agender?

Let’s keep it civil. It’s not a debate thread, but rather a question thread. If you don’t want to discuss this topic, just leave this thread alone.

 

[xSuperMario64x]

I'm personally not non-bonary but I don't think that there is a "set" number of "genders." it really just depends on how someone feels. it's not really a gender in the male-female, sense, rather it's a spectrum of somewhere in between.

also I don't think that there are neceasarily "more people changing their gender" in recent years. it's probably been prevalent for a very, very long tme. but only recently have they begun to feel accepted by society and they can reveal who they truly are without fear of ridicule.

the reason why it seems like there were less non-binary people before is likely because they kept their identity hidden. also, people are becoming more educated on this topic and so there are more people identifying with being non-binary, whereas before they may have been like "I'm biologically a guy but I don't really feel like I can be defined as either gender." now that people know more about being non binary they can more easily identify with it.

 

[ting1984]

also I don't think that there are neceasarily "more people changing their gender" in recent years. it's probably been prevalent for a very, very long tme. but only recently have they begun to feel accepted by society and they can reveal who they truly are without fear of ridicule.

I agree with this. I think it closely parallels the LGBT movement. These things have always been around, but they weren't accepted in most cultures or societies, historically.

I also wonder about strict parenting. I was extremely tomboyish as a child and used to say things like, "I will grow up to be a boy like my brother!" My parents never over-corrected this, and never made me feel guilty about being a tomboy. I also went through a phase in my adolescent years where I kept my hair really short and wore suits because I liked the look (I also wore makeup, though, so it was rather androgynous). Had my parents over-corrected all of this, I wonder if I'd struggle with gender/sex issues.

But as an adult, I've since nonetheless become more preoccupied with gender issues ever since learning about the 'Biblical Manhood and Womanhood' movements that are prevalent in some conservative Christian circles, especially Reformed. These movements frown upon those who go beyond accepted cultural stereotypes of gender, so tomboyish and logical, nerdy women aren't seen as good examples of Biblical women, who are expected fit the June Cleaver mold. They probably also wouldn't approve of my dad, who is very emotionally expressive. I don't see as much emphasis of this in Lutheran circles, but overall, there's definitely a preference for women who fit gender stereotypes in basically all conservative Christian circles. Women are expected to love shopping, hate the physical and visual aspects of sexuality and instead struggle with the sins of gossip or materialism, hate sports, prefer emotions and relationships over logic and systems, use tact and love over truth and principles, and place motherhood as their greatest life work.

I'm a fairly conservative Christian, but my family and I have always had trouble fitting into the actual communities because we're a little too imaginative and different. We aren't naturally good at adhering to all traditions and social expectations.

 

[Chris]

NB and will keep my answers brief:

1. Gender is a spectrum. No one can give you a hard number.
2. It becoming a social issue is the only "new" or "recent" thing here. The concept as a whole is not new; only the recognition of it and assigning terms to it. Read classical poetry, literature, and historical accounts dating back 2000~ years and that will become clear.
3. Because policing another person's identity is an issue.
4. It has only become socially acceptable in recent years. If it is safe to come out then naturally less people are afraid to come forward.
5. I think I answered this in question one: it's a spectrum.

 

[tumut]

As far as im concerned theres like

Male
Female
Intersex
Non-binary

I think thats enough, there might be a couple more. I dont count trans mtf or ftm as different genders because trans men are men and trans women are women.

I also think "pansexual" shouldnt exist because being bisexual does not mean you're not attracted to trans ppl. No bi person is like yeah **** trans/nb people.

Edit: im not saying ppl who identify as pan are bad I just think "pansexual" is an inherently flawed label with bad, mostly unintentional implications.

 

[Kuroh]

I agree with this. I think it closely parallels the LGBT movement. These things have always been around, but they weren't accepted in most cultures or societies, historically.

I also wonder about strict parenting. I was extremely tomboyish as a child and used to say things like, "I will grow up to be a boy like my brother!" My parents never over-corrected this, and never made me feel guilty about being a tomboy. I also went through a phase in my adolescent years where I kept my hair really short and wore suits because I liked the look (I also wore makeup, though, so it was rather androgynous). Had my parents over-corrected all of this, I wonder if I'd struggle with gender/sex issues.

But as an adult, I've since nonetheless become more preoccupied with gender issues ever since learning about the 'Biblical Manhood and Womanhood' movements that are prevalent in some conservative Christian circles, especially Reformed. These movements frown upon those who go beyond accepted cultural stereotypes of gender, so tomboyish and logical, nerdy women aren't seen as good examples of Biblical women, who are expected fit the June Cleaver mold. They probably also wouldn't approve of my dad, who is very emotionally expressive. I don't see as much emphasis of this in Lutheran circles, but overall, there's definitely a preference for women who fit gender stereotypes in basically all conservative Christian circles. Women are expected to love shopping, hate the physical and visual aspects of sexuality and instead struggle with the sins of gossip or materialism, hate sports, prefer emotions and relationships over logic and systems, use tact and love over truth and principles, and place motherhood as their greatest life work.

I'm a fairly conservative Christian, but my family and I have always had trouble fitting into the actual communities because we're a little too imaginative and different. We aren't naturally good at adhering to all traditions and social expectations.

I'd definitely avoid the people in those circles- they're making up completely misogynistic "rules" that were never in the bible to begin with. They're the ones in the wrong. Your family is the one doing it right, which is letting people be themselves ☺

 

[Miss Misty]

Also not non-binary.

I agree with @xSuperMario64x that there really isn't a quantifiable amount of genders. The binary gender system was used for a long time as an analogue for biological sex. But gender is more akin to how you perceive yourself as fitting into society based on your sex and sexuality, as well as your own personality traits. There are plenty of career driven women who do not want children under any circumstances, but who still identify as female - they would not be considered "true" females in the conservative Christian circles @ting1984 mentioned, but they consider themselves female and so do the people in their circles. That's where the idea of the spectrum comes in. Having some traditionally female traits and choosing to identify as female doesn't mean that you need to adopt every traditionally female trait. Heck, you can even have some traditionally female traits and choose to identify as a male, or choose not to identify as either gender at all. Many people find 'male' or 'female' to be good enough to get by with. For those who don't, non-binary is sort of a catchall term to signify that they lay somewhere else on the spectrum.

Part of the reason it's becoming more prominent lately is, again like SuperMario64 said, it's becoming more acceptable to be your true self and it's becoming more expected to respect others as individuals instead of putting them into preassigned boxes. I also think a part of it is due to the internet becoming so prominent. People aren't stuck in tiny towns where they need to put their heads down anymore; they can connect with like-minded people and actually start coming up with a widely-accepted lexicon for these things. Some of those people get really interested in the subject and even go onto study psychology in college so they can perform studies to expand on these ideas. Ideas which, by the way, have been around for all of humanity, but are only recently being talked about openly, because again it's becoming more accepted to do so.

Why do non-binary people get upset when they get misgendered or told there are only two genders?
Because that's a part of their identity that they have decided is congruent with their feelings about themselves and their place in society. Your identity is your own; it's not for other people to have a say in. You know yourself better than anyone else, and you have the right to expect people to respect who you say that you are. Imagine if, instead of Alolan_Apples, I and a bunch of others decided that you are actually Unovan_Oranges. Every thread you're on, someone comes in and says "When are you going to accept that you're actually Unovan_Oranges?" and the mods don't do anything because it's still socially acceptable to look the other way when someone is having their identity policed in front of them. It'd be annoying, right, that you decided Alolan_Apples is how you want people to see you here, but here come these meanies telling you that you are wrong, that the identity we chose is the one that fits you better? It's like that, except it's real life instead of a forum handle.

Why do people get upset about society starting to accept that gender isn't a binary?
Because some people are really afraid of change, and the departure from 'men are men, women are women and that's that' is a pretty big change in society. Most people are aware that functionally it's not going to change much more than being expected to ask people's preferred pronouns and such instead of assuming, but some people take comfort in things staying the same so they reject any major changes. And there will always be sadists who derive pleasure from upsetting others, can't do anything about those other than wait for the glorious day that they get shamed into silence.

 

[Alolan_Apples]

While I am part of the group that believes there are only two genders, I also believe that people can like whatever they want to like. For instance, I was born male, and identify as a male, but I primarily play as female characters in both Pokémon and Animal Crossing. My reasoning behind this is because I don’t have a girlfriend in real life, and I want to be in a relationship. I’ve also liked stuff that was geared towards girls (i.e. Powerpuff Girls) and stuff that was geared towards guys (i.e. Pokémon). And stuff for a more gender-neutral audience (i.e. SpongeBob). I also dress like a male, but I have a bunch of stuffed food plushies (also known as Squishables). But if I am part of the non-binary spectrum, what would I best match?

 

[Chris]

While I am part of the group that believes there are only two genders, I also believe that people can like whatever they want to like. For instance, I was born male, and identify as a male, but I primarily play as female characters in both Pokémon and Animal Crossing. My reasoning behind this is because I don’t have a girlfriend in real life, and I want to be in a relationship. I’ve also liked stuff that was geared towards girls (i.e. Powerpuff Girls) and stuff that was geared towards guys (i.e. Pokémon). And stuff for a more gender-neutral audience (i.e. SpongeBob). I also dress like a male, but I have a bunch of stuffed food plushies (also known as Squishables). But if I am part of the non-binary spectrum, what would I best match?

You identify as male therefore you are male. I'm not sure what other answer you are looking for here.

 

[seliph]

1. To those who believe there are more than two genders, exactly how many are there? I wouldn’t take you seriously if you said like 100, but I can if you say 10.

gender is a spectrum as vris said, but it is also a completely made up concept by early european colonizers. the "real" answer, if there is one, is both 0 and infinite. 100 isn't a crazy answer either - the "male/female" system that we use is specific to our region and the english language, and there are other gender systems in different cultures/countries/etc. that have existed for centuries. one you may have heard of is "two spirit(ed)", which is specific to indigenous cultures.

2. What lead to the creation of the non-binary genders? I wonder if gender inequality and strict parenting in historic times are part of the reason as well.

they weren't "created", they always were. there are texts dated from ancient egypt and beyond that describe people,or where people describe themselves, as what we'd know as "nonbinary".

3. Why do some people get easily offended when there’s a dispute in number of genders? I like to know both sides of the story (like why do non-binary people get offended by people who say that there are two genders and why people who believe in the binary system get offended if someone else says otherwise).

because it's an offensive thing to say that has been proven wrong dozens and dozens of times by actual scientists/biologists but also, how is someone identifying differently affecting you? why do you feel the need to police how others see themselves? enforcing that "there's only two genders" is eurocentric (and therefore racist), ignorant, and just incorrect.

4. Why are more and more people changing their gender in recent times? What are some internal and external factors that cause this?

this should not be phrased as people "changing their gender". people are realizing their gender(s) or lack thereof. the world has become more knowledgeable, more open, and more accepting of other gender/gender identities and this makes it easier, less stigmatized, and less dangerous for people to explore with theirs.

5. Most importantly, how does multiple genders work? Like is it based on a spectrum, or is there some other factors that make different non-binary genders different to others? Example of this is what’s the difference between androgynous and agender?

it is a spectrum. as for androgynous/agender, people see their own gender identities differently. someone may identify as both androgynous and agender, one or the other, or neither. none of these would be an incorrect way to identify since they both share a base meaning of "genderless".

 

[Roxxy]

Just treat people as people. Respect and understanding is all I know

 

[seliph]

As far as im concerned theres like

Male
Female
Intersex
Non-binary

I think thats enough, there might be a couple more. I dont count trans mtf or ftm as different genders because trans men are men and trans women are women.

I also think "pansexual" shouldnt exist because being bisexual does not mean you're not attracted to trans ppl. No bi person is like yeah **** trans/nb people.

Edit: im not saying ppl who identify as pan are bad I just think "pansexual" is an inherently flawed label with bad, mostly unintentional implications.

intersex isn't a gender identity, it's purely biological and refers to peoples' reproductive anatomy. there are cisgender intersex men/women as well as transgender intersex men/women.

 

[Dinosaurz]

Sex is a purely biological structure that shouldn’t effect the way you are called, or how you dress or anything. Putting something biological towards the way you express yourself is stupid.

 

[tumut]

intersex isn't a gender identity, it's purely biological and refers to peoples' reproductive anatomy. there are cisgender intersex men/women as well as transgender intersex men/women.

Ive heard of it used as a gender indentity before, but be it that it relates to anatomy yeah that makes more sense. Plus I know some interesex people transition to one gender that they identify with.

 

[timecapsule]

x

 

[Alolan_Apples]

Good answers, everyone. To summarize what your answers are, here’s what I learned:

1. There’s no definitive number of genders like how many major religions or how many states there are in America. It’s more of a spectrum. According to what I learned in math, a line consists an infinite number of points. Even a segment can have an infinite number of points if you count decimal digits.
2. There has always been more than two genders, even from the beginning of time. But I know this much: from my experience, it started becoming a hot topic in the 2010’s (especially after North Carolina passed that bathroom bill). Of course, there have been several facts that existed in science for quite a long time (including facts we have yet to discover). Multiple genders is starting to become more accepted.
3. This one is hard to summarize, but this is a mixture of namecalling, denying that an entire group of people exist, and scientific ignorance, all of which don’t end well. It’s one thing to believe things yourself, but to force your beliefs upon others is wrong.
4. It’s not really that more people are changing their genders, but rather having more accurate identification when more people are recognizing that gender isn’t binary.
5. Just like the first question, it’s more of a spectrum of how masculine or feminine you are, based on many factors. Like if there are 10 questions and two answers (A and B), it’s not more A than B and vice versa, but rather one of the 1,024 combinations of answers.

 

[Mairmalade]

Why do non-binary people get upset when they get misgendered or told there are only two genders?
Because that's a part of their identity that they have decided is congruent with their feelings about themselves and their place in society. Your identity is your own; it's not for other people to have a say in. You know yourself better than anyone else, and you have the right to expect people to respect who you say that you are. Imagine if, instead of Alolan_Apples, I and a bunch of others decided that you are actually Unovan_Oranges. Every thread you're on, someone comes in and says "When are you going to accept that you're actually Unovan_Oranges?" and the mods don't do anything because it's still socially acceptable to look the other way when someone is having their identity policed in front of them. It'd be annoying, right, that you decided Alolan_Apples is how you want people to see you here, but here come these meanies telling you that you are wrong, that the identity we chose is the one that fits you better? It's like that, except it's real life instead of a forum handle.

This was a great way to explain identity. If I identified as a gender outside of male or female and was told 'no, that doesn't exist' or 'no, you're a girl,' just because I 'looked' like a girl physically, I'd be upset and confused - and rightfully so. I have a personal story on this that I'll share a bit below.

There is a lot of confusion on the correlation of biological sex and gender identities. While we primarily know male and female anatomy (although there are are other biological makeup), the genders male and female are often automatically assigned even though there are practically infinite ways to define your identity. I don't think anyone should be able to tell you who or what you are - that is for you to define yourself. Other gender identities have always existed. Why does there have to be such a fixation on viewing someone as male or female?

As a child, my mom would always say, 'because you're a girl,' or 'why don't you wear clothes that are a little more girly?' When I entered middle and high school, I actually had a lot of hand-me-downs from my brother. I was ridiculed and bullied for my clothes, and dismissed by classmates because I didn't dress like I was supposed to dress, I didn't sound how I was supposed to sound, and I didn't act like how a 'normal girl' would. I remember sooo many days in my youth where I bawled my eyes out because I was so confused on what I was doing wrong.

Media has certainly played a role in defining certain activities and mannerisms as being predominantly for either a male or female. This is something that definitely needs to stop, and I've noticed there has been efforts towards this.

Literature and meeting/talking with other people enabled me to better understand you should identify yourself however you wish to. Gender identities are not so black-and-white.

I'd recommend researching and starting with memoirs that share a variety of voices and stories to expand your learning and understanding from personal view points. One I recently read was Nonbinary: Memoirs of Gender and Identity.

 

[Alolan_Apples]

Here’s something that I would like to say about the misgendering part: Even I, someone on the binary system, have been misgendered several times. While I explicitly state that I am male on every site I go, I have always played as female characters in games (including Little Big Planet) and had avatars portraying female characters (including Panini from the TV show called Chowder). For that reason, people believed that I’m female. It’s a good thing that people on this site know that I’m male, even if my characters are female. It’s also worth mentioning that my real name is Mica. Both my ACNH character and my Pokémon Sword character are named Holly.

 

[seliph]

As a child, my mom would always say, 'because you're a girl,' or 'why don't you wear clothes that are a little more girly?' When I entered middle and high school, I actually had a lot of hand-me-downs from my brother. I was ridiculed and bullied for my clothes, and dismissed by classmates because I didn't dress like I was supposed to dress, I didn't sound how I was supposed to sound, and I didn't act like how a 'normal girl' would. I remember sooo many days in my youth where I bawled my eyes out because I was so confused on what I was doing wrong.

ON GOD do i feel this

Here’s something that I would like to say about the misgendering part: Even I, someone on the binary system, have been misgendered several times. While I explicitly state that I am male on every site I go, I have always played as female characters in games (including Little Big Planet) and had avatars portraying female characters (including Panini from the TV show called Chowder). For that reason, people believed that I’m female. It’s a good thing that people on this site know that I’m male, even if my characters are female. It’s also worth mentioning that my real name is Mica. Both my ACNH character and my Pokémon Sword character are named Holly.

of course cis people can experience being misgendered and it probably sucks for you guys as well, but it is important to know it generally doesn't have near the same affect as it would a trans person - especially if it's deliberate. when it comes to misgendering nonbinary people while/by saying "there's only two genders", this would be much less like someone making a false assumption that you're a woman and more like someone saying "actually you're not male, men don't exist and you're delusional".

 

[Imbri]

Thank you for sharing these views. There is good information out there that people can learn from, and we should. But all the textbook knowledge in the world isn't going to advance change (in viewpoints by those who lack it). The best way to affect change is by putting a face to things. When something is brought down to the micro level of being right in front of you, it is harder to deny or reject it.