Some questions about non-binary genders

[michealsmells]

I'm nonbinary and will keep this short cause otherwise I'll just get worked up, tbh.

1. Gender is a spectrum. It's something dependent on not only the individual person, but the culture they're a part of. There's plenty of cultures (some Native American ones for example) that use more than just a male and female gender. Look into it if you're interested.

2. I can't answer what created them because there's a lot of nb genders. Some people are just nb while other people like specific labels, that's fine. Again, look into the cultures that have more than the binary genders.

3. People get offended because you're essentially telling someone they shouldn't exist if you're disputing the number of genders there are. That's not for you to decide or police especially if you're cis.

4. The same reason more people are gay and more people aren't getting married: its becoming more culturally acceptable. Plenty of people have been trans or gay or all these other things throughout history (need I mention the other cultural differences yet again?), but they couldn't talk about it else they'd get lobotomized. People back then who would come out as LGBT+ now were what we call Depressed(tm).

5. Androgynous, in my knowledge, is looking between genders. You could come off as feminine or masculine or neither. Agender, meanwhile, is a gender that people identify as. Anyone who's androgynous please correct me if its actually a gender identification, I genuinely don't know.
I, for example, technically have several genders. I like to call myself nonbinary genderfluid. Some days I feel more feminine, some days I feel more masculine. Some days I feel like neither or both, or maybe like something else entirely that I don't have a word for.

One thing to remember is that "nonbinary" is not a single gender. Nonbinary just means any trans person who does not fit precisely into male or female. Anything further is up to them to decide. (that being said you can say nonbinary is your gender. hell, I do for simplicity's sake)

This went on longer than I intended but I'm very passionate abt this topic

 

[idiotdoomspiral]

5. Androgynous, in my knowledge, is looking between genders. You could come off as feminine or masculine or neither. Agender, meanwhile, is a gender that people identify as. Anyone who's androgynous please correct me if its actually a gender identification, I genuinely don't know.

if this helps androgyne is a gender identity for some androgynous people! its what i identify with as well as agender.

a lot has already been said that i dont want to repeat much but ill share some of my thoughts on your questions. historically there have been a lot of examples of transgender and nonbinary communities but for recent times i think in the wake of the internet and its resources many people now have more insight on these terms which helps them identify with themselves better as its not abnormal to question your gender identity, even if you are cisgender. for me personally growing up my gender identity was very confusing, for a while i thought i would be a man but that didnt quite fit either, i never knew any terms for how i felt or if it even existed but after learning what a nonbinary person is and different nb identities from reading stuff online i was like so this is how ive felt my whole life

people are going to be tired and offended if you tell them "there are only two genders" we have heard this many times before from others, some intentionally being spiteful or violent. it may seem like things are okay because of the replies so far, were lucky to be on a forum which is a positive space for us which means things are improving, there will always be spaces around but most places on the internet and in real life are very hostile to the idea that we exist, we cant ignore it in the end

 

[Manah]

The male-female binary is extremely restrictive and not even accurate in terms of biological sex. Other genders aren't new, we just now develop the vocabulary to express them properly - we don't make genders, we give them names.

Trying to cram the diversity of human experience into neat little numbered boxes doesn't reflect reality, it just tricks people into thinking they know the whole picture - by ignoring/eliminating everything that's "too much."

 

[Damniel]

gender identity and expression are social constructs. if society didn't enforce two gender roles since the the beginning of civilization, we wouldn't really be arguing gender... people would just be who they are. if you look across different species, male and females have different roles depending on the animal. even if you look at human civilizations, gender roles weren't the same. in different parts/eras of the world, men and women fulfilled different roles, or sometimes the distinction just didn't matter as much at all

there is no reason why men and women have to behave or dress in one way, society just tends to scrutinize those acting outside of those norms. If you really asked yourself "what does being a man/woman mean?" in terms of expression, there's not a lot there. you could argue that it has to do with biology, but that doesnt meant people can't express themselves they way they want

i think gender is just something people feel on an individual level; i dont think it can be quantified. we all choose to dress/behave differently that can't always fit into a set number of categories

 

[mayortiffany]

I just wanted to say thank you for everyone for your thoughtful remarks.

Growing up, I was not very exposed to notions of sexuality and gender, and it was not something I really experienced in the school system as well. It hasn't really been too much of a topic that's come up in my political science + international relations classes either, at university. I really appreciate being able to read what you have all said.

I wonder, after reading your comments, to what extent perception of gender might vary across cultures.

I remember attending a panel discussion with students at my university where we talked about LGBT+ rights in East Asia. One of the speakers was a trans man from Vietnam, and he talked about how French colonialism imposed Western conceptions of gender and sexuality norms onto Vietnam that did not exist previously in pre-colonial Vietnamese thought.

It was super interesting to hear about how the way we think about gender and sexuality might vary based on where we live in the world, and his differing experiences in Vietnam and in France.

 

[Hypno KK]

1. To those who believe there are more than two genders, exactly how many are there?
I don't know. It doesn't really matter to me when it comes to accepting the existence of multiple genders. What labels people choose for non-binary genders also probably depend on language and culture.

2. What lead to the creation of the non-binary genders?
There's been non-binary genders in non-Western cultures so the idea that it's a new thing is really weird to me. Historically, there have also been people in the West who described themselves in ways that are close to what we'd now consider to be trans or nb.

I do not believe that gender inequality or equality is a reason for this. Gender roles are not the same as gender. You can be a cis woman and like stuff that's stereotypically linked to men and vice-versa. Gender is how people feel inside and goes deeper than that.

3. Why do some people get easily offended when there’s a dispute in number of genders?
Because when people say non-binary genders don't exist, they're effectively pretending that a major part of who nb people are and feel doesn't exist.

4. Why are more and more people changing their gender in recent times?
Probably because there's more awareness and (comparatively) more tolerance. When I was a teenager there were so many people who had no idea about even the very basics of gender identity issues, whereas now it's easier to find information.

5. Most importantly, how does multiple genders work? Like is it based on a spectrum, or is there some other factors that make different non-binary genders different to others? Example of this is what’s the difference between androgynous and agender?
It depends on the person. Some people do have multiple genders that they feel like they switch between. Other people feel like they're a single gender that doesn't match male/female, for example.

Agender is when someone feels like they've got no gender whatsoever. Androgynous depends (I've seen slightly different definitions) but the basic meaning is a mix of male and female (hence the word), with some people wishing their body fit this and others not so much. I don't see it used as a label that much anymore though.

Post automatically merged: Oct 7, 2020

Here’s something that I would like to say about the misgendering part: Even I, someone on the binary system, have been misgendered several times. While I explicitly state that I am male on every site I go, I have always played as female characters in games (including Little Big Planet) and had avatars portraying female characters (including Panini from the TV show called Chowder). For that reason, people believed that I’m female. It’s a good thing that people on this site know that I’m male, even if my characters are female. It’s also worth mentioning that my real name is Mica. Both my ACNH character and my Pokémon Sword character are named Holly.

The difference is how cis and trans people experience this. For cis people it might (at worst) be awkward or a joke, yes, but they don't get people telling them their gender isn't valid. Like if you're a girl and keep being mistaken for a boy, even when it's unpleasant or used in a traumatic way (like bullying), nobody's disputing that you're a girl.

Trans people get their gender invalidated all the time. There are constantly people insisting that they're not really their gender. Many trans people need to struggle a lot just to be respected. Many trans people experience body dysphoria which is really painful. Also, for many trans people there is the added danger of hate crimes.

To put this reeally simply, for trans people being misgendered can be a big reminder of times when their identity has been questioned or when they've had trouble over it.

I know it can be confusing when people experience the same things in a different way but it's not hard to empathise with why this might be the case.

Post automatically merged: Oct 7, 2020

I forgot to add that when it comes to misgendering, "there are only two genders" and other remarks, it's not so much about people being offended, it's about having to struggle with this day in and day out and like @lungs says, it's often with bad intentions that others do it.

 

[nintendofan85]

I think this is an expressed sentiment that others have said here, just maybe not so clearly, but my general perception of gender, as a cisgender male, is that it's a very fluid matter with a broad spectrum. (Basically a spectrum of "male", "female", and anything in between) Technically someone can be something gender-wise and there may not even be a label for it, and saying this not only as a cis guy but also someone who is bisexual, I must say that I generally don't like labels. I use them for one reason and one reason only: to make things simpler when I explain myself. Even then, it's not the easiest, as I feel like my sexuality is kind of fluid, at least more so for a male than usual (females typically have more fluid sexualities than males). Likely this has to do with my bisexuality, but sometimes I'm attracted to men more and at others, more so towards women. I've met many bi people-although mostly girls-who experience this (I think bisexual women are more likely to experience fluidity and differences over time in terms of which sex they're attracted to more than bisexual men like myself for aforementioned reasons, but it appears to happen in some sort of fashion to bisexuals of both sexes), although in my case, it's mostly that I have a sexual desire for men but I get more romantically attracted to women (although I have a boyfriend, so it's not like this is set in stone).

I realize I kind of got long-winded as usual for myself, but my point is, gender and sexuality are both not so fixed, and I don't think either should be treated as such.

 

[visibleghost]

it's throwback time on tbt now i guess huh

1. there is no set amount of genders. how we define gender is different for everybody, even cis people, and especially nonbinary people usually define their own gender differently from others. to make matters easier you can classify them as male, female and other but that doesn't mean that "other" is one specific gender that everyone who is nonbinary is. i think you have to rewrite the entire way of thinking about gender to be able to understand it tho
2. a lot of nb genders are rooted in long lasting cultures and religions. idk the exact reasons, and i assume they're different in each culture, but it's not like everyone always has been tied to a gender binary until the wicked socialists came and destroyed gender in the 21st century.
3. transphobes be mad. also nonbinary people don't like when people say their identity isn't real or valid.
4. they just want to and i guess it's more socially acceptable. names are incredibly gendered so it makes sense that people are uncomfortable with their name given at birth because it symbolizes the gender assigned to them at birth.
5. it's a bit more complicated than this but some people see gender as a spectrum where genders can be on a scale from male to female but there are also genders outside that spectrum which are not connected to the binary genders whatsoever. what someone decides to define themselves as is up to them but generally agender means no gender, not a specified or unspecified third gender, just no gender. androgynous is usually more about gender expression rather than gender identity, where someone presents themselves in a gender neutral way.

 

[xSuperMario64x]

I'm personally not non-bonary but I don't think that there is a "set" number of "genders." it really just depends on how someone feels. it's not really a gender in the male-female, sense, rather it's a spectrum of somewhere in between.

also I don't think that there are neceasarily "more people changing their gender" in recent years. it's probably been prevalent for a very, very long tme. but only recently have they begun to feel accepted by society and they can reveal who they truly are without fear of ridicule.

the reason why it seems like there were less non-binary people before is likely because they kept their identity hidden. also, people are becoming more educated on this topic and so there are more people identifying with being non-binary, whereas before they may have been like "I'm biologically a guy but I don't really feel like I can be defined as either gender." now that people know more about being non binary they can more easily identify with it.

oh my god I forgot about this

literally everything here is still true and now that I've realized I actually am nb the best thing I can say to add to this is: don't make people be afraid to come out to you. I'm terrified to come out to my dad, his family, and his friends because they're all so overly traditionally conservative. I shouldn't have to hide my identity to make others "comfortable" and I'm sure that many others can agree.

 

[tomatospooks666]

While I wouldn’t debate on how many genders there are since that is a touchy subject, I am curious about the non-binary genders and how society changed over the last six years.

1. To those who believe there are more than two genders, exactly how many are there? I wouldn’t take you seriously if you said like 100, but I can if you say 10.
2. What lead to the creation of the non-binary genders? I wonder if gender inequality and strict parenting in historic times are part of the reason as well.
3. Why do some people get easily offended when there’s a dispute in number of genders? I like to know both sides of the story (like why do non-binary people get offended by people who say that there are two genders and why people who believe in the binary system get offended if someone else says otherwise).
4. Why are more and more people changing their gender in recent times? What are some internal and external factors that cause this?
5. Most importantly, how does multiple genders work? Like is it based on a spectrum, or is there some other factors that make different non-binary genders different to others? Example of this is what’s the difference between androgynous and agender?

Let’s keep it civil. It’s not a debate thread, but rather a question thread. If you don’t want to discuss this topic, just leave this thread alone.

1. Gender is a spectrum, as others have said, and it could easily have as many as 100 as some people choose to identify as more common terms while others prefer more ''out there'' terms. Don't care if you "take me seriously" or not. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

2. Non binary genders have always been a thing. They are no more ''created'' than other lgbt people have been, they simply are.

3. As someone on the nb side, having someone treat your identity as a topic of debate and openly tell you that your identity doesn't deserve respect makes people kinda irritated. And rightfully so.

4. Refer back to 2.

5. Personally, I identify as a demiboy. Personally, my personal gender identity fluctuates a lot between being a man and just wanting nothing to do with the concept of gender as a whole.

 

[Croconaw]

This is an interesting read. I’m guessing there isn’t a set number of genders. Gender identity is a spectrum. I wouldn’t say people change their genders, but they just figure out who they are. It’s similar to finding yourself. I identify as a cisgender female, and I’m not too familiar with the non-cisgender identities. It’s great to read some of these posts. You can learn a lot from someone else’s point of view. I’ve met a few close minded people who have said “you can choose your sexuality, but you can’t choose your gender.” There are so many things wrong with this sentence, I can even begin. You don’t choose your sexuality, first of all. You are born what you are. It just takes time to figure everything out and come to terms with it. I don’t believe gender is a choice either. We just make a decision to come to terms with it. We come forward when we’re ready.

 

[xSuperMario64x]

5. Personally, I identify as a demiboy. Personally, my personal gender identity fluctuates a lot between being a man and just wanting nothing to do with the concept of gender as a whole.

I've been hoping to meet someone else who identifies as demiboy, I identify the same way so it's nice to know someone whom I can relate to :>

 

[Red Cat]

I think there are 0 genders because they are all social constructs. I don't get why society places expectations on how people look, dress, act, love, etc. based on chromosomes. I had a coworker come out as nonbinary and that's perfectly fine with me. But it's not like I considered them a completely different person because they wanted to go by a different name and pronouns and changed their appearance. At the end of the day you are still you regardless of what gender you identify as. You may have a lot in common with someone who identifies as a different gender and almost nothing in common with someone who identifies as the same gender, so why do we even care?