Mafia Mountainous Mafia: Camp Mafia - Mafia Wins!

[Antonio]

IMO she did explain her reasoning for the change with her last post, the "this is bananas" one. uncertainty and panic. not a good reason constructed out of logic, which betsy has more or less owned up to already.

You're right, that technically does provide clarity regarding the motive for the change of vote but it only makes sense if you realize they changed their vote. If you didn't know they changed their vote, it seems like a general statement regarding the chaos of EOD.

 

[BetsySundrop]

My apologies, it wasn't 10. It was 1, but you could have explained it further. I still think a minute is more then enough time to state "Oh hey, I changed my vote to daniel instead".

Are you serious?! In a minute which probably wasnt even a minute?!

 

[Antonio]

Im not putting words in your mouth, that is not true. I had no time for anything, which us why I think eod was stupid. That was the first time I had ever actually been in eod "action". And it was awful. And you may want to go back and see what time I made my last post, because that was right when i voted, and i am sure it couldn't have been 10 minutes. I did not have much time to put anything at all.

I apologize, it wasn't 10 minutes. I remember being wrong. However, if you had enough time to say your last post, you had enough time to say "Hey, I changed my vote". Your EOD post lacked clarity.

Are you serious?! In a minute which probably wasnt even a minute?!

Yes, you did make a post in the last minute did you not?

Post automatically merged: Sep 15, 2021

I apologize, it wasn't 10 minutes. I remember being wrong. However, if you had enough time to say your last post, you had enough time to say "Hey, I changed my vote". Your EOD post lacked clarity.

Yes, you did make a post in the last minute did you not?

I remember it being 10 minutes so I'm wrong, sorry.***

 

[BetsySundrop]

You're right, that technically does provide clarity regarding the motive for the change of vote but it only makes sense if you realize they changed their vote. If you didn't know they changed their vote, it seems like a general statement regarding the chaos of EOD.

I ask again, what would it matter? I understand not getting rid of Catharina, i do regret that, but I wouldnt have had time to change it back anyway. This time. No eod for me. Its ridiculous and you cant think.

 

[droqen]

No eod for me. Its ridiculous and you cant think.

hard agree

 

[Antonio]

I ask again, what would it matter? I understand not getting rid of Catharina, i do regret that, but I wouldnt have had time to change it back anyway. This time. No eod for me. Its ridiculous and you cant think.

It's not about changing your vote back. It matters because you changed your vote last minute, without properly clarifying why you change it. The fact that changing your vote exactly last minute is warrant sus enough, but the lack of clearly stating that you did change your vote is also suspicious.

 

[BetsySundrop]

Another thing, if you thought catharina was a good choice, maybe we should have discussed it earlier? I don't really remember having discussions with anyone on that. I think I was focused on the more active players.

Post automatically merged: Sep 15, 2021

It's not about changing your vote back. It matters because you changed your vote last minute, without properly clarifying why you change it. The fact that changing your vote exactly last minute is warrant sus enough, but the lack of clearly stating that you did change your vote is also suspicious.

I don't agree because of the situation and the time, but you do have a point and I will definitely alert when I vote/change vote from now on, because I will make sure I have time.

 

[Antonio]

I understand panicking and the crazy pressure from EOD, however changing your vote exactly last minute is extremely suspicious and the excuse of pressure could be easily stated by Mafia as it could Town. Your statements don't justify the sus from changing your vote so last minute and the lack of clarity is suspicious at best. Plus, with a valid motive of not wanting to vote Catharina (presuming you are only sus reading them as a way to push yourself away from them), you could've changed your vote last minute as a way to get off the wagon.

My final point is this, our votes are not similar. Yes, we both have proper sus reads on them. However, I stated why I changed from Koopa to Catharina near EOD, giving proper motive. I didn't change my vote due to EOD pressure or uncertainty, I changed my vote because I didn't want to vote off a potential Bad Town compared to Catharina who I sus read for similar reasons. I have proper reasoning to change my vote to my other sus read and I stated so. An emotional excuse may be proper reasoning as to why you changed your vote so late but it's flawed reasoning due to the fact that the mafia could easily use that as an excuse. It may be a valid excuse but it's flawed because it can go both ways, unlike my reasoning. Simply put, my reasoning came from a place of understandable reasoning/logic while your reasoning came from a place of Anxiety.

We shouldn't be motivated by our emotions but by logical motives instead. Emotional reasoning may go both ways (Town and Mafia), but logic reasoning is way more beneficial to Town and helps up form proper opinions/theories that are back by logical information.

Post automatically merged: Sep 15, 2021

Another thing, if you thought catharina was a good choice, maybe we should have discussed it earlier? I don't really remember having discussions with anyone on that. I think I was focused on the more active players.

Post automatically merged: Sep 15, 2021

I don't agree because of the situation and the time, but you do have a point and I will definitely alert when I vote/change vote from now on, because I will make sure I have time.

I have stated my reasons for why I found Koopa and Catharina suspicious in my reads and I explained why I changed my vote with clarity. What exactly do you mean by Discussed?

Post automatically merged: Sep 15, 2021

By valid motive, I mean possible motive. It's still valid.

 

[Catharina]

We shouldn't be motivated by our emotions but by logical motives instead. Emotional reasoning may go both ways (Town and Mafia), but logic reasoning is way more beneficial to Town and helps up form proper opinions/theories that are back by logical information.

This is kinda why I wished I was at online at eod as I voted damniel out of "paranoia" and not really being logical, but on the other hand at that moment if I had to choose between koopa or Damniel I would keep my vote on Damniel.

 

[Antonio]

This is kinda why I wished I was at online at eod as I voted damniel out of "paranoia" and not really being logical, but on the other hand at that moment if I had to choose between koopa or Damniel I would keep my vote on Damniel.

Not gonna comment, just gonna state that this just adding fuel to the fire regarding my sus read.

Post automatically merged: Sep 15, 2021

@Miss Misty Just wanted to say that if Ness says no, I can stay in. However, I would still like the replacement if possible.

 

[BetsySundrop]

I understand panicking and the crazy pressure from EOD, however changing your vote exactly last minute is extremely suspicious and the excuse of pressure could be easily stated by Mafia as it could Town. Your statements don't justify the sus from changing your vote so last minute and the lack of clarity is suspicious at best. Plus, with a valid motive of not wanting to vote Catharina (presuming you are only sus reading them as a way to push yourself away from them), you could've changed your vote last minute as a way to get off the wagon.

My final point is this, our votes are not similar. Yes, we both have proper sus reads on them. However, I stated why I changed from Koopa to Catharina near EOD, giving proper motive. I didn't change my vote due to EOD pressure or uncertainty, I changed my vote because I didn't want to vote off a potential Bad Town compared to Catharina who I sus read for similar reasons. I have proper reasoning to change my vote to my other sus read and I stated so. An emotional excuse may be proper reasoning as to why you changed your vote so late but it's flawed reasoning due to the fact that the mafia could easily use that as an excuse. It may be a valid excuse but it's flawed because it can go both ways, unlike my reasoning. Simply put, my reasoning came from a place of understandable reasoning/logic while your reasoning came from a place of Anxiety.

We shouldn't be motivated by our emotions but by logical motives instead. Emotional reasoning may go both ways (Town and Mafia), but logic reasoning is way more beneficial to Town and helps up form proper opinions/theories that are back by logical information.

I am beginning to feel like you are really digging for a reason to put something on me, and when it isn't a very plausible reason, it looks like you are outing yourself. I have had catharina on my sus list for a loong time as a possible quiet partner. I have explained why in several posts. It is starting to seem like you are trying to put myself and catharina on a team. Which is odd, considering the fact that my last two reads on her were a spoiler detailing all of her posts, and why I thought she was sus, and then a super long post talking about the possible teams between catherina and others and dans theory.

My vote was not emotional. I have said this. I will say it again. I had LOGICALLY reasoned dan and cath to be my vote choices and voted dan. At eod (from about noonish?) Dan was discussing it with me. I asked several questions of dan, flipping his theory around even to put him in my shoes (he did the same). Eventually, I decided to unvote. Then changed to catharina, but I also stated that if I died, look to dan, because I really thought he might turn out wolf. Close to eod, when i was questioning why i did not stick to my guns (as droqen stuck to his) I realized (i looked back and checked one instance) that he had not really answered my challenges, so I decided I had been stupid, and posted that. He had me convinced enough to change my vote and hadn't answered my questions? I think I even said it was dumb to change. Then I had to decide, change back, or let it stand on catharina? LOGICALLY, it would be better to go with my first, non-influenced by pressure vote. It was not easy to decide, especially given the time. So I switched it and realized how little time I had and made my last post.

 

[King koopa]

Well that's unfortunate.
As for who I think is mafia, it's definitely not droqen as he has been calm and made great points the whole game. Bestysundrop might also be town as she has been making great points and while the last minute vote change was a little suspicious, she explained in great detail why she did it.
I'm thinking cath/Antonio to be honest. Both of them voted me for a reason I can understand. Though I'm more suspicious of cath though since she voted me last minute on the first day, and while that doesn't always mean she's mafia, it is a questionable choice.

 

[Antonio]

My vote was not emotional. I have said this. I will say it again. I had LOGICALLY reasoned dan and cath to be my vote choices and voted dan. At eod (from about noonish?) Dan was discussing it with me. I asked several questions of dan, flipping his theory around even to put him in my shoes (he did the same).

Once again, I am not implying you didn't have logical reasons for why you voted them but I'm saying you are lacking logical reason for why you changed your vote near EOD. Those are two different things entirely.

Post automatically merged: Sep 15, 2021

Please learn to read properly, I'm sorry but I feel like I have been very clear regarding my posts and it feels like you are interpreting my posts in an extremely different manner.

Post automatically merged: Sep 15, 2021

Betsy changed out of emotion between two options, both measured earlier as roughly equal.

IMO she did explain her reasoning for the change with her last post, the "this is bananas" one. uncertainty and panic. not a good reason constructed out of logic, which betsy has more or less owned up to already.

Even Droqen agrees it's not a good reason and the change of vote is out of emotions.

BTW, I don't think you're sus atm. I have clearly stated that you became null due to your EOD behavior. I'm trying to make a point that your behavior could also becoming from a mafia perspective due to panic in your vote change could be an easy excuse. That's literally all I have been saying, so if you think I'm trying to stick something on you then please stop. I'm literally just clarifying my point over and over because you keep misinterpreting my posts, if you would understand what I'm saying then I wouldn't need to keep repeating myself.

Post automatically merged: Sep 15, 2021

I also been saying that our change of votes are different too.

Post automatically merged: Sep 15, 2021

If I wasn't being clear before, please let me know but I feel like I have been stating my thoughts pretty well.

 

[BetsySundrop]

Once again, I am not implying you didn't have logical reasons for why you voted them but I'm saying you are lacking logical reason for why you changed your vote near EOD. Those are two different things entirely.

That is definitely explained in the post. It was logical to return to my well reasoned original vote. I also explained (in that same post you quoted), that when I questioned my coming off the dan vote, I went back through and realized he hadn't actually answered my challenges (one in particular that I remembered), he deflected. So LOGICALLY, I would be better off changing my vote back to dan. It only took a couple of minutes to do that (most of it finding the particular post), and then I had to go vote. I did not really think about what I posted afterwards.

Post automatically merged: Sep 15, 2021

Well that's unfortunate.
As for who I think is mafia, it's definitely not droqen as he has been calm and made great points the whole game. Bestysundrop might also be town as she has been making great points and while the last minute vote change was a little suspicious, she explained in great detail why she did it.
I'm thinking cath/Antonio to be honest. Both of them voted me for a reason I can understand. Though I'm more suspicious of cath though since she voted me last minute on the first day, and while that doesn't always mean she's mafia, it is a questionable choice.

I am realizing now that eod is awful, and that changing votes last minute are seen as sus. I did not know this, and I did see last minute votes on d1. I do plan on explaining my vote changes in future.

 

[Antonio]

That is definitely explained in the post. It was logical to return to my well reasoned original vote. I also explained (in that same post you quoted), that when I questioned my coming off the dan vote, I went back through and realized he hadn't actually answered my challenges (one in particular that I remembered), he deflected. So LOGICALLY, I would be better off changing my vote back to dan. It only took a couple of minutes to do that (most of it finding the particular post), and then I had to go vote. I did not really think about what I posted afterwards.

This contradicts your previous post:

It's actually embarrassing and not helpful. I can think logically, clearly, and pay attention to detail....if I'm not under pressure.

The post being in obvious agreement with
droqen post.

Now you are trying to tell me you acted out of logic rather than emotion/EOD pressure. For all I know, these logical explanation could be manufactured after the vote rather than the truth. I couldn't have known how you acted near EOD because you didn't state near EOD which brings me back to my point, that your behavior could be made up.

Post automatically merged: Sep 15, 2021

I am realizing now that eod is awful, and that changing votes last minute are seen as sus. I did not know this, and I did see last minute votes on d1. I do plan on explaining my vote changes in future.

This statement literally backs up my overall point:

I'm trying to make a point that your behavior could also becoming from a mafia perspective due to panic in your vote change could be an easy excuse. That's literally all I have been saying

Post automatically merged: Sep 15, 2021

If it clearly hasn't been intented, I'm not referring to you as Mafia nor am I saying you are. I'm stating your change of vote could also be coming from a mafia perspective, it could also be townie. There's no way to verify because you didn't clearly (as in clarity) specify why till after EOD.

 

[BetsySundrop]

This contradicts your previous post:

The post being in obvious agreement with
droqen post.

Now you are trying to tell me you acted out of logic rather than emotion/EOD pressure. For all I know, these logical explanation could be manufactured after the vote rather than the truth. I couldn't have known how you acted near EOD because you didn't state near EOD which brings me back to my point, that your behavior could be made up.

You obviously have an agenda here. And it is very odd. My posts are not contradictory. I believe I explained myself clearly. I made a not well thought out decision to change off dan. People can convince me often in the moment, but when I go back later, I realize I've been fooled. I voted my 2nd best choice, catharina. I was anxious in a pressure situation, and doubted myself, then felt like I had been fooled by dan. I looked back, realized that it would make more logical sense to change back, and did so. The emotional part is that all of these decisions had to be made quickly and in an extremely limited time, and were not done in a state of calm.

It feels like you are ignoring what i am saying.

 

[Antonio]

You obviously have an agenda here. And it is very odd. My posts are not contradictory. I believe I explained myself clearly. I made a not well thought out decision to change off dan. People can convince me often in the moment, but when I go back later, I realize I've been fooled. I voted my 2nd best choice, catharina. I was anxious in a pressure situation, and doubted myself, then felt like I had been fooled by dan. I looked back, realized that it would make more logical sense to change back, and did so. The emotional part is that all of these decisions had to be made quickly and in an extremely limited time, and were not done in a state of calm.

It feels like you are ignoring what i am saying.

Trust me, I'm not ignoring you nor am I pushing any sort of agenda. I hear your reasoning loud and clear. However, I feel like you ain't hearing me either which is a common theme between the both of us currently. I believe there's an obvious miscommunication going on.

@Miss Misty cancel my replacement, I don't want to leave off without any negative feelings or miscommunication.

So, let's do a short activity to remove any miscommunications between the two of us. What I will do is recap what you are saying to me in a sort summary and then I want you to verify if that is correct. If that is correct, I will attempt to repeat my points aswell and ask you to summarize my points. If that is also correct then we need to ask ourselves, what's the problem. I'll go first after this post.

Post automatically merged: Sep 15, 2021

Summary: The point you are trying to make is that you had logical reasons to change your vote on Damniel. You went over the multiple steps regarding why you change your vote from Catherine to Damniel and how you can to that conclusion. You admit that changing your vote so late in EOD is sus. You believe the reason why you change your vote came from a reason of logic and did not coming from a place of EOD pressure nor emotions. You admit that you should have clarified on why you should change your vote but you also admit it would've been hard to specify so late.

Is this correct and if I'm missing anything let me know? Once you answer both of these questions, summarize the points I'm trying to make then ask me the same question in blue.

This way we can see if we clearly understand ourselves currently.

Post automatically merged: Sep 15, 2021

Once we both do this activity, I believe we can clear any miscommunication going on between us.

 

[BetsySundrop]

This contradicts your previous post:

The post being in obvious agreement with
droqen post.

Now you are trying to tell me you acted out of logic rather than emotion/EOD pressure. For all I know, these logical explanation could be manufactured after the vote rather than the truth. I couldn't have known how you acted near EOD because you didn't state near EOD which brings me back to my point, that your behavior could be made up.

Post automatically merged: Sep 15, 2021

This statement literally backs up my overall point:

Post automatically merged: Sep 15, 2021

If it clearly hasn't been intented, I'm not referring to you as Mafia nor am I saying you are. I'm stating your change of vote could also be coming from a mafia perspective, it could also be townie. There's no way to verify because you didn't clearly (as in clarity) specify why till after EOD.

I missed all the action last time, and I just went back and checked it out in detail. Last 10 minutes, you, geoni, dan discussing, you saying last minute vote change and discussion was "sus, ngl", dan with different opinion, dan pushing geoni, etc...Catharina voted 1:54, no post, no explanation. Dan changed his vote 1:58, no post, no explanation.

I remember asking about last minute action on d2 and you had one opinion, dan a very different opinion. One was pro, one was con. So I decided to stick around for d2 eod. Regrets...

I did see geoni posted dan was "wolfin it" with his last minute vote change to himself (geoni), but I've already said I know now (after being hammered on it today, lol) that it can be regarded as sus and that I do not plan on doing it in the future. Looking back, I also think it's fairly apparent that I wasn't confident in switching off dan in the first place.

Post automatically merged: Sep 15, 2021

Trust me, I'm not ignoring you nor am I pushing any sort of agenda. I hear your reasoning loud and clear. However, I feel like you ain't hearing me either which is a common theme between the both of us currently. I believe there's an obvious miscommunication going on.

@Miss Misty cancel my replacement, I don't want to leave off without any negative feelings or miscommunication.

So, let's do a short activity to remove any miscommunications between the two of us. What I will do is recap what you are saying to me in a sort summary and then I want you to verify if that is correct. If that is correct, I will attempt to repeat my points aswell and ask you to summarize my points. If that is also correct then we need to ask ourselves, what's the problem. I'll go first after this post.

Post automatically merged: Sep 15, 2021

Summary: The point you are trying to make is that you had logical reasons to change your vote on Damniel. You went over the multiple steps regarding why you change your vote from Catherine to Damniel and how you can to that conclusion. You admit that changing your vote so late in EOD is sus. You believe the reason why you change your vote came from a reason of logic and did not coming from a place of EOD pressure nor emotions. You admit that you should have clarified on why you should change your vote but you also admit it would've been hard to specify so late.

Is this correct and if I'm missing anything let me know? Once you answer both of these questions, summarize the points I'm trying to make then ask me the same question in blue.

This way we can see if we clearly understand ourselves currently.

Post automatically merged: Sep 15, 2021

Once we both do this activity, I believe we can clear any miscommunication going on between us.

Ok gimme a sec

 

[Antonio]

Ok gimme a sec

Alrighty, take your time.

 

[BetsySundrop]

Your paragraph copied and pasted.

Summary: The point you are trying to make is that you had logical reasons to change your vote on Damniel. (I dont think this is clear, which vote, the one off or on? If the off vote, I was "convinced" by dan in eod discussion, so unvoted him. That wasn't logical, it was me believing the person in the moment. If the on vote, that was me correcting my earlier stupidity and going back to my first choice). You went over the multiple steps regarding why you change your vote from Catherine to Damniel and how you can to that conclusion. You admit that changing your vote so late in EOD is sus. (now i see how that can look, yes, but i think people have different opinions on this. I do agree that changing vote should have explanation, so no more eod for me). You believe the reason why you change your vote came from a reason of logic and did not coming from a place of EOD pressure nor emotions ( it was BOTH, and i dont see why you dont understand this, my actual decision to change back to my original vote was logical, but was done in a high pressure state, and I was definitrly feeling the time crunch). You admit that you should have clarified on why you should change your vote but you also admit it would've been hard to specify so late.(yes)

I believe I may have found the problem with one part of this miscommunication. In a high pressure situation, people get emotional, as in anxiety, frustration. But in that state, you can still make logical decisions, otherwise nobody could function in high pressure situations. I am not saying i made the RIGHT decision, but it was what made sense at the time.

My recap is:
Is this correct or if I'm missing anything let me know. (I don't remember how to make it blue, sorry, I'veonly done that once, ever.)

You regard last minute action, vote changes, wagons, etc as sus, especially vote changes, and especially if no explanation. I changed my vote last minute, therefore you regard me as sus. You dont think an action can be from a logical/emotional place at once. Therefore, you believe i have contradicted myself.

Post automatically merged: Sep 15, 2021

I will be off for a while, back on later.

btw right now i'm trusting of both of you @BetsySundrop and @Antonio - your responses are coming fast and easy and passionate. not manufactured like the boy band of mafia lol. it's obvious who i suspect based on that. but, at this point i am still too emotionally flip-flopped from my paranoid Damniel theory that I don't know if I can trust my judgement.

I know that feeling...