I'm heading to a neighboring city today to purchase a used car, so I won't be online the majority of today. However once I am home I will share some ideas.
True, but don't you think he would've at least waited for the game to end? I believe that his reasons for leaving are true, I just think that the stress from the game might have been the thing that ticked him off. If he was really planning to leave from before, why would he commit to a mafia game just before? It just all seems odd to me. There's been so many scum tells so far, I'm surprised no one's more concerned.
Anyways, I think I'm gonna go ahead and vote Panda. I've explained why in my reads if anyone is wondering, but I think it's quite obvious. I may later change my vote to Zendel/ZeFeZe depending on his actions today.
So, looking back through the thread, f11 is the most confusing to me
I can't tell if she's acting so laid back because she's actually town, or if she's mafia... haaaAaaaA
I feel her answers are like...too obviously uncaring that a mafia player wouldn't risk it (people are sus of her atm) ;;
I don't think I've played with her before, so I'm unsure how she normally acts as town or mafia
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Also Zendel is making me sus with all the "I'm a bad player" "I'm having a bad day" kinda thing
It seems unlike him, and I feel like writing paragraphed posts about it is irrelevant and distracting
Not really sure of his motive
(I know that in my first few games I kept giving everyone "updates" about what was going on as I was being sussed for inactivity)
The first part of this post seems to point toward the fact that Nightmares is willing to voice her opinions, though her explanations for said opinions seem a bit flimsy. It's a good starting point, though.
The second part of the post (about Zendel) is a lot more sound than the first part, and is a very proactive argument to make this early into the game. Based on the part of the quote in parentheses, it seems like Nightmares has improved quite a bit, and is showing greater Town attributes, even if activity may still be an issue down the line.
I mean, if no one counterclaims, then I guess Zendel is town
Your style is weird this game, but I'm also feeling ill and acting different...so.......idk
I'm not writing huge paragraphs about it, but w/e
Guess I'll drop it for now lmao
Your last post made a lot of sense?
........idfk kms
I'm not sure about anyone else atm, but I'll put in more effort tomorrow, sorry
This post is all over the place compared to her last one. The first line is a relatively quick assumption, but that's underneath the flavor meta, so I'm not going to dive into that.
The second line seems a lot like confirmation bias to me. Her own play-style is changing from her past games, but that should not give her a go-ahead to not suspect other people when it turns out that their play-style has also been changing.
For the third line, I think it's fair not to write bigger paragraphs about situations, especially with the nature of the game on this site. Nothing really wrong here.
The fourth line goes directly back to my point on the second line above.
Kind of the same thing with the fifth line, though I'm not sure what Nightmares is questioning at this point.
Originally Posted by Apple2013
Nightmares no mafia is stupid enough to counterclaim townies, wtf are you on? What mafia would claim a random townie name if they weren't given it fake name anyway?
Anyway I have huge town vibes from Tensu. However I have very scummy vibes from Panda. More on this shortly, I am in the middle of a few things irl. I have a lot to reply to.
Normally I'll lay into people a bit more for making remarks like "wtf are you on" toward somebody in a game, but this is a more unique situation in which it's in retaliation to the same exact remark. Nightmares is clearly shown here to be more aware of the game than people may give her credit for, and with this point made to Apple (who is still a great contributor to the Town), I think Nightmares can be easily seen as capable in her own right, and able to potentially take up a role as Town leader, should the situation arise. The only thing to fix at that point would be activity issues, but that's a completely different issue to tackle.
I won't have Internet for a while, so I'm choosing to vote now
I've gone for f11 because her attitude towards the game is strange - idk if she's acting so relaxed because she's town, or that's how she's attempting to come across...to steer us away from sussing her? Or she could just play like this normally lmao
I'm pretty sure she's the one who has had a lot of praise for her mafia skills throughout the community?? And it seems weird that this would be her usual play style....so I feel like something is up
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However, I may change my vote to Panda if I have time later.... her aggressiveness and reliance on everyone else to make the thread active is weird
Idk
First part basically goes back to a post from earlier, so the only thing I'll say on that is that it's kind of strange to go back on it, when at this point, f11 has gotten more pressure, which would allow her to potentially find more new information to add onto her reasoning to vote for f11. I don't really like it, and I think that this argument has been somewhat invalidated at this point in the game.
The second post seems to now cling onto the opinions of others, which is in stark contrast to how she did things before. Though, a lot has happened between this post and her last, so I do suppose that it at least makes a little sense that this happened.
Tensu: Tensu is really coming across as town at the moment. He's posted a lot of substantial posts, and although he didn't push f11 too much, I understand that her dismissive behaviour wasn't really helping. I can see that he's trying to help town, so for that reason, he's a strong lean for me.
However, you did call me out for "jumping on the f11 bandwagon" when only one other person was voting for her. If I had voted for anyone else that already had a vote, does that also mean I'm bandwagoning? (Or w/e the term is). Like, do I have to vote for someone who hasn't been yet to not be called out for it? Sorry if I'm not explaining this well, but it feels like you're looking for an excuse to scum read me. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting this really wrong, haha. Despite this, you are a strong town read for me, and I think your intentions are only to help town.
Heyden: He's questioning people actively, and bringing up a lot of valid points. I'm not really sure what else to say atm, sorry, but he seems town to me.
Jacob: For some reason I feel there isn't enough to go off of to strongly lean you, sorry. I agree that Damniel's vote on you was weird, but you'd probably feel like that whatever your alignment.
Seroja: She's also a strong town lean for me - the thing I picked up on the most was her conversation with Panda; she raised some good points, and pushed Panda for more / in depth reads. I feel she's rather genuine, and seems to be actively helping town. She also mentioned Zendel claiming quickly.
Mogyay: Not a whole load to comment on - she has a genuine and helpful attitude, and nothing stands out to me as scummy. She's contributing enough for me to not sus her.
Apple: He's contributed to the discussion, but there's still a weird feeling about him. Atm he's null, as I can't really tell. He's a bit of a dick, but I don't think I should label him as scum for that reason.
Zendel: Maaan, Zendel... I don't know what to think of this "oops, I skimmed my PM" **** though... it seems really scummy that you wouldn't know what's in the town PM; you could have easily gone back and checked too. Surely when given the role PM, and you admit yourself that you aren't the strongest player, you would have checked it to make sure you were playing correctly? Idk
Something seems wrong about it.
Your attitude towards the game also seemed different than usual, howeverrr, I agree with your reads for the most part... I'm just gonna put you as null.
f11 : I've agreed with her for the most part (Zendel "skimming" his PM, etc) although her dismissive, possibly evasive, behaviour is confusing me? She seemed rather carefree and not wanting to put much effort in at the beginning, but recently I have seen her contributing helpfully a lot more, and as previously said, I agree with a lot of her points. I'm putting her as a slight town lean for now.
Amanda: Only answered RQS.
Damniel: I also feel like you haven't posted enough to get a good read on you. The thing that really captured my attention though, was this: "I'm voting on Jacob. He has a few lengthy posts, but they're all fluffy." Like, were you being fully serious? It sounds sarcastic or like a joke, lmao. I can't agree with you on this, and some of your posts give me weird vibes.
Prima: Too inactive to make a read, but I still feel like there's quite a chance that they're scum.
Panda: My strongest scum lean... your "YOU'LL REGRET VOTING ME!!!" attitude seems rather dramatic, yet the idea of claiming was stupid in your opinion. I don't really understand why. You also called out Seroja for not posting full reads, which, like Seroja said, comes across as you skimming the thread. Not really sure what to think of it, sorry. Your aggressive attitude towards the game seems suspicious too, and I'm not sure why you're acting so irritated all the time.
I also feel that you're spending too much of your time replying to people's posts about you. You don't seem to be offering us much knowledge, just telling people "excuse me ?" and stuff... I don't know, haha
I don't think I need to go over the reads individually to say that a lot of effort was put into them, and that's definitely great for the time ahead. Whether they're accurate reads or not, I think it's too early to tell, but I do like the effort put forth in this.
Originally Posted by Zendel
@Nightmares
Is there any other reason for your town read on Jacob? How do you feel about his vote on Corrie? What do you think of his defence of Panda?
Please answer when you come back online, thank you.
If there was another reason, I would've included it in my read, so nope
I think it's pretty fair seeing that she was avoiding the thread, and you kinda need /someone/ to vote for on D1 at least.... personally, I think it would have been better to vote someone else, but idk
I'm not totally sure what to think of his defence, and although it doesn't scream scum to me, I don't think we should dismiss it, obviously
I agree with the idea of at least getting somebody to vote for on Day 1, but I don't like the way she says this. It just kind of seems like an easy way to push an implicit lynch on somebody which can influence others to jump on a voting train. Maybe I'm looking too deep into it, though.
Originally Posted by Heyden
Yeah idk why Zendel is pushing for Jacob all of a sudden when their initial scum read was Nightmares. While I still sort of believe the safe claim something seems to be a bit off with their approach to their reads and all...
The biggest takeaway from this interaction is that scum-reads can easily be made and changed throughout the game, so this should be a non-issue. Nightmares' response to this seems pretty neutral to me (not in a "third-party-leaning" kind of way, though).
OVERALL ASSESSMENT: Town-Leaning - Though her recent change in her play has shown more compliance to what other people are saying, I still believe that, with a bit more polish, she can become a Town leader, should the situation arise. She's not quite over that hump yet, and activity is definitely an issue, but she's showing good signs of becoming a much better player right now.
Okay, that's #2 down. Next up on my list is mogyay.
Panda, is there any reason for your confusing behaviour this game? (The things brought up in most people's reads on you).
I'm curious because previously you were very flustered and defensive about people voting you, but your attitude seemed scummy and like you weren't even trying to come across as town
You also weren't addressing what anyone said about you, and haven't given us much insight on who you want to vote / think are sus
I just really want to hear more from you when you have the time ;;
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I mean recently btw
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Ah, sorry, I missed the bit about you being busy, but in that time you spent typing it all out, I feel like you could have actually contributed something
Ignore the last part, but I'm still curious about your behaviour
Originally Posted by Zendel
It's true, I'm trying something new. I took Ness' advice and read up on techniques and me being a goofball didn't help in any of the previous games so I plan to be more serious now. It isn't fair if my team is being as serious as can be and I'm just saying crap like "Whose mafia, lol?". It isn't helpful and I really want to be a useful player from here on out so it's time to be serious, witty and curious to others behaviours rather than the usual playful self.
Also I'm not having a great day, so my attitude my change tomorrow or later on when I feel better.
Don't put yourself down so much, you weren't useless at all. Your transparency and straight forwardness made me sure you were town in the last two games. I'm not getting that feeling right now from you. Absolutely understand everyone changes their playstyle though but the change in personality is putting me off a little
This is a good point to make, and a point I made in one of my earlier reads. I have nothing to expand upon with it, since I completely agree with it.
i'm definitely not feeling corrie as scum, right now i'd probably be ok voting zendal but let's be honest the majority of scum (or at least one or two of them) are most likely trying to keep a low profile right now, i know that's hypocrtical of me to say. just wanted to pop in, i'll be back later with some more thoughts. i'm wanting to look at f11 more, i often scum read them because they have a pretty haphazard playstyle but i can't decide on this game if it feels genuine or not
I have a feeling that her accuracy of Corrie being Town has a lot of merit here, not because I feel like she would know that Corrie is Town beforehand, but because she actively tries to steer discussion away from Corrie. Sure, Corrie did end up lynched, and that's not really a great thing for Town, but I think it says a lot about mogyay's alignment.
did nightmares just try and justify her own slightly quiet behaviour as the same as zendal's? honestly i think when someone is having a bad day it's best to just believe them but it's odd
also sorry zendal, i believe your claim, i thought maybe your change in play style was just a cover for being scum
honestly i'm a little confused right now as to who to vote, i still think it's probably people in the shadows but there's no point in just randomly voting for one of them, i hope more people speak up tonight (should someone message tae? they aren't v active on tbt)
Despite what I've said about mog's alignment thus far, the bolded piece of this quote seems very odd to me, considering that she had stated earlier on that everybody changes their play-style from time to time. Perhaps this was more directed at the personality shift she mentioned in that same post, though I think the wording here isn't right, whether it be the former or the latter here.
i'm not sure how i feel about panda's reads, she's pushing on the weaker players and i do understand her reasons but it looks a little like too.. convenient? it's like when mafia mislynches they can get hide behind their reasoning 'well they made theirself look scummy anyway', idk its not sitting with me that well, all her scum leans are players that are new (corrie, zendal) or players that are easy to lynch (nightmares) (also i know this is bizarre to say but i'm surprised she's town leaning me i haven't really posted that much lol). like i know all three players have given reasons to be sus but i feel uncomfortable i guess??
Pushing the weaker players is actually a decent idea, in all honesty. Despite it seeming like kind of a d-bag move, the newer players will be more apt to say certain things when pressure is placed on them, which can give everybody a good idea of their alignment, whether it be good or bad. Yeah, it is convenient, but not for the reason you think it is.
Skipping a lot of posts here, much of it is about meta
Originally Posted by Seroja
That wasn't me defending myself. I was just questioning how to get a proper scumread if those two methods are not to be used. It rubs off the wrong way on me (is this how this phrase goes?) Or did you mean about hostility? I find the comparison silly tbh.
being defensive doesn't necessarily mean you're defending yourself! also since i believe zendal is town despite the shady mistake i guess i'm leaning on voting panda since i don't have any heavier suspicions right now (i want to wait to see her post she promised you though) i'm not pushing her lynch though, you're right
The bolded point is something that can really speak to everybody. It's another very good point that she makes here.
i went ahead and voted panda. i'm sorry if i'm wrong, i don't feel comfortable voting corrie and i can't justify voting anyone else. i'm a little annoyed because i don't think there's all that much to go on for this day one so i feel almost backed into a corner
I'm not really sure what the bolded part means...I understand the context of it, but it seemed like Panda was getting votes anyway at the time, so being backed into a corner wouldn't really make much sense.
Originally Posted by Tensu
Sorry I was so antsy during the last few minutes. I was trying to do whatever I could avoid this happening. I'm also gonna keep an eye out for those who chose to vote Corrie despite the points brought up by Mog, Dan, and me. Especially Panda and Zendel, also I will watch out for Nightmares due to her piggybacking on crys.
Also welcome amanda! I'm excited to be playing with you
it's something to think about, certainly. i think you're right, i'm more concerned about anyone who thought she was actual scum rather than tactically voting for her (those i'm not too bothered by, i kinda see their point i think). i'm half dead rn though tbh (it's half 4 in the morning, rip gmt people) but i'll look more closely at the voting later
I think it's a fair point, and after I'm done with these reads, I want to look more into the votes myself.
OVERALL ASSESSMENT: Likely Town - Despite the way she flipped in terms of the Zendel situation, I think that her early hesitance to vote for Corrie is very revealing, not just of her alignment, but potentially everybody's alignment. There were a few questionable posts that she's made thus far, but I believe those to be very minor, so they don't affect my opinion of her in any way.
ZefeZ - I'm just putting this here to say that I've seen absolutely nothing from him. I'm not going to use Zendel's posts to make a read on him, so I'm leaving him as null for now.
More people seem to be trying put more effort in the game so that's definitely a good thing
I personally don't believe Panda is scum- her frustration in the game is pretty genuine to me; she's put effort in the game and while the reads and play style pretty bad, it seems like more bad town than mafia
I'm still pretty sure Jacob is scum. Trundle as a growing scum lean too
the quick replacement, the role fiasco, zendel even being replaced in the first place (the pressure) and zefe disappeared after one post, probably talking to scum buddies.
Since I found Seroja a little scummy, I decided to go back and compile the whole back and fourth between Ser and Panda. I am hoping to decide on a alignment to mark Panda as now that we know Seroja was actually town. I realize that in my head I was taking things a little easier on Panda for some reason, so most of the stuff I've been advocating may or may not change after I look a little more carefully into this....
(I also wrote this ^^ introduction before I started reading carefully below vv)
* Everything written in brackets are my notes and not part of the original quotes
I was sus of them [Prima and Nightmares, something to look back into. We shouldn't take Ser's suspicions lightly anymore] but not enough for a lynch. Was hoping to find them posting something by the time I wake up. I don't like to vote someone unless I am absolutely sure they are the right choice or if I have no time left to make a better decision. [this is where it started] If I were to vote someone right now I'd vote Panda honestly. She's my biggest sus at this moment.
Panda I'm becoming more sure is scum. The thread is only empty if you have no idea what to look into. As town. there should always be something you'd want to address or give attention to. But you were just asking for people to talk more without ]putting in your own perspective on things thathad already went down earlier. Your reads also reflect that. The lack of substance shows that you were having a hard time putting together a fake read. I may be speculating, but this is what I feel.
What you've done so far is questioning people on trivial stuff but not really forming your opinions based on the answers you got. I see it as an obvious scum tell. My vote goes to you today.
I'm really sorry if I'm wrong. believe you when you say you're busy with your new job, but it's not the number of posts I'm looking at, but the content of your posts. I don't see you putting in effort to look for scum at all. All I'm seeing right now is you cosplaying as town. If you are indeed town, please show it.
Okie, hopefully you can convince me you're town if you're really town. I don't want to mislynch. Otherwise, my vote on you is firm. Imma get ready for work now.
I do! Why don't you write another read with as a follow up of your first impression one. Or, name who you think we should lynch instead with a proper case to back up your suggestion. That'll help.
I'll start with Quote B:
"Seroja and why me as of right now ? I'm curious cause you've played with me before..."
This was Panda's very first post in retaliation to Seroja saying that Panda was her "biggest sus at this moment."
Generally I don't think much of people when they question why someone finds them suspicious (I usually don't do it, myself) but this really stuck out more than usual because it was directed solely to Seroja when Zendel also stated that they were suspicious of Panda only 15 minutes before Seroja said it.
I think its just pretty interesting, I don't really know what it means if I am being honest maybe I am nitpicking
Quote C and D
Seroja actually brings up really good and valid points against Panda. Nothing I would consider lynch worthy because it was mainly addressing her content effort blah blah and I already wrote a defense post about that earlier in the game. but Panda's return to that wasn't defensive at all, it was a OMGUS remark against Seroja's reads.
I probably wouldn't have picked up the difference earlier because like I said I was kinda more against Seroja from the beginning than of Panda. So quote D makes me think Panda is scummy.
Quote E and F compliment C as its just Seroja adding to everything she was finding off about Panda's playstyle, but Panda's reply to that is where things actually started to reverse, and I think it's where I was putting my attention:
"SerojaI am not skimming the thrrad... I don't remember you posting it, I'll have to go back and see."
I actually personally did find this quote sincere, we all skip over posts sometimes and miss out on important information. Albeit Seroja's reads is a pretty big thing to miss, but still. Panda didn't come back with an insult she came back with an explanation which is different than before.
It was also at this point that Seroja started changing her attitude, I'm not sure if it was confidence or what but she was becoming less and less pleasant when pointing out Panda's play.
Like quote J was a definite jab which I think was where I associated Ser to scum. After that Panda made another excuse/reason to quit replying.
So after rereading everything, the only scummy phrases that I saw from Panda were:
I - "if people start to sheep and vote me, we will have a mislynch."
K - "I'm making dinner atm, but as soon as I'm done I'll have it for you."
But the problem is that Panda and Seroja were both acting almost exactly the same. They were both hostile toward each other, they both changed their attitudes between Anger and Cooperation within 11 posts, and they both made excuses to end the topic for a little.
TLDR so far: I think its taking me a very long winded time to say that after reassessment of the whole back and forth between the two, its really hard to pick out whether Panda could be scum or not. At first I believed that there was probably 1 scum between them, but I don't think it would actually make sense at this point. This is most likely TownvTown or like f11 said MafiavMafia. At this point I need to take a stand on Panda and I want to say that she's Town.
So I am going to Town lean Panda
(Unless any new information comes out!!)
As for who I will be voting today, I want to take a look back on what xCleb has been posting. It seems like they're doing their own analysis on players and I think with their outlook and ideas, it'll be easier to narrow down a really good candidate for today (or at least help me when I go to create my own read, I am really trying my best in this game!! lol)
I'm just gonna leave this here, will definitely elaborate (mainly on the null/scums) later today. If there isn't scum between f11/Panda/Cleb then my whole mindset is probably ****ed
Panda is town, the push on her id dumb and is obviously being led by mafia. Seroja's death was to frame her imo.
I 70% believe the scum team is xcleb, nightmares, jacob and heyden. The interactions between these people seem fake and i don't trust it. It all started on the day 1 rqs.
Jacob answered " Last game I completely embarrassed myself participating in TownvTown meta-analysis on Heyden." by saying this I believeit was a way to subconciously clear him and heyden as town. After this sentence Jacob says " I am hoping this game I will be known for a little more accuracy" meaning he does want to go against a town heyden, who hasn't even posted yet. Some time goes and Jacob then posts this "People are sussing mostly Heyden, f11, and Zendel so I won't doubt any of those three will be lynched today.
I don't really understand the Heyden cases but maybe I need to go back and reread them
People are trying to associate carelessness=scummy which I also don't fully understand
Out of the 3 I would prefer a Zendel lynch and that was explained in my last post, it isn't a lot but its enough for just only day 1 I think." Jacob uses "people" when it was literally only me sussung heyden. He gives a small weak iffy defense saying he doesn't understand the case, but Jacob does this to not be defending him scummate, but also not extreme bussing, because they don't want a mafia to get lynched on day one. also that proud sheep on corrie kekkkk. also he does some weird **** calling panda third part when that doesnt make any sense at all. also he said he wasn't gonna post reads in night but know it's day sooo....jacob wya
Heyeden. His posts imo have been unfufilling. somethings just off about them and i don't trust it. Also I find it funny the heyden tried to bring up my mafia meta from like a year ago. During Day one some people where talking about nightmares abstractedly, it was nothing specific but heyden still defended nightmares from idk what, "I doubt Nightmares it's scum, I think her cluelessness of town:mafia ratio was a slight town tell if anything because when scum she usually just mimics everyone else." it was a weird and random defense and heyden basically calls her dumb town...how interesting. In that post heyden said he doesnt trust panda. Then nightmares pasted saying she doesnt trust me, and merged a post only minutes after heydens saying they also didn't trust panda. What happened? I think nightmare was imitating heyden, her scumbuddy..... ok next it is day 2. Seroja dies and Heyden posts this "doc wyd" next panda starts saying this cryptic softclaiming pr ****. Heyden asks panda, Tried what exactly? i think this a heyden trying to sniff out prs hoenestly like who asks dumb **** like this. Heyden also said this "im sensing a toads the doctor but i was roleblocked claim", which is also cryptic and makes no sense. It was asked twice, but it was never explained. Also he scum leaned cleb with no explanation not even like saying 'i dont trust him'
nightmares is just scummy in general but maybe dumb town.
xcleb had put nightmares as town which is weird to me, and heyden as mafia which i think is just bussing. I think hayden is bussing back when he has xcleb as mafia aswell.
The last link connecting these four is jacob saying this "As for who I will be voting today, I want to take a look back on what xCleb has been posting. It seems like they're doing their own analysis on players and I think with their outlook and ideas, it'll be easier to narrow down a really good candidate for today" ie: imma sheep xcleb and copy his reads. like idk i found this last part pretty weird. Jacob never posted reads but instead did a useless (imo) post of seroja and panda.
Uhm sorry for the formatting and spelling errors im on my phone but these are just my thoughts. Todays lynch should be either jacob or heyden, probably jacob.
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yikes, nightmares is supposed to be the same color as xcleb
Well when someone says they'll be 'a mislynch for town' or 'DO NOT LYNCH ME TOWN YOU WILL REGRET IT', I'm pretty sure most people would know what's going on anyway
Also I'm getting to Cleb and friends later today, just wait
About Nightmares, I still can't get over that she bandwagoned on the f11 suspicion train. Crys is known to be a reckless player, town or mafia, so her strange attitude can't really be associated as a scum lean. Also, this situation reminds me a lot of when I was mafia in the last game, I needed to vote someone without looking too suspicious so I settled on crys because of her usual strange attitude and hoped nobody would think anything of it. Here's the link to the mafia chat from that game so you can see yourself.
On another note, I'm honestly dumbfounded by the fact that people are actually heeding Panda's desperate plea at the end of Day One. Isn't that exactly what mafia would say at that point? If she really is innocent she should've just role claimed, it would've been more effective than what she said. I'm sorry, but "TOWN YOU DO NOT WANT TO LYNCH ME" would only be said by someone who has absolutely nothing to lose.
I'm still awaiting clarification from Panda on what she meant by, "I'm sorry Seroja, I tried." I'm also waiting to hear her scum leans as well as anything significant from ZeFeZe.
Tensu, it seems that the easy bandwagon last day was Corrie, yet she didn't vote on her. I would hardly say sus on crys is a bandwagon. Why aren't you critizing people who were on corrie's wagon?
I have work tm so when I get home I'll post thorough reads
I'm inclined to step down from Panda seeing if she responds, but either f11 or Cleb, more Cleb unless his reads on the players not done yet convince me otherwise
