Pro-life or Pro-choice

[Dinosaurz]

Immmm pro choice but I’d never get one done but that’s what being pro choice is

 

[Sprinkles_penguin]

Generally people tend to go with the fetus having a heartbeat and brain activity since those are the two things most will agree something requires to be 'alive', not to mention 2 out of 3 of the things that when missing will classify something as dead. These two things generally happen around 6-8 weeks IIRC. Before this a fetus isn't much different to a tumour really, and if the mother doesn't want the baby then it may as well be a cancerous tumour since it's just going to grow and grow until it eventually kills her bank account and dreams...Or be put into adoption potentially giving the mother a lifetime of grief that they've done something like that.

As for the chicken comparison, I'll have an opinion when throwing near hatching eggs at the wall becomes a thing anybody actually does.


Not really, because the "all Arab's are terrorists" thing is just a racist stereotype where as the actual general consensus is that "we're not stupid, we know that #NotAllArabs". For something to be a general consensus, a majority of people have to agree with the said statement, not a small vocal minority and lowbrow "adult" comedies.

First of all, thank you very much for your detailed answer, and also for recognizing the humanity of the fetus, or at least at some point of its development.

As for the chicken egg comparison, It was just an example. Most of the times, examples are hypothetical cases that are not to be taken too seriously. I was just setting an example, just to know if you would consider it as life or not. Would you?


Also, about the stereotype part, the "general consensus" really varies depending of race, country, religion, economic status or even sex. That's why, I've never believed in general consensus because at the end everyone thinks differently. Of course there are intelligent people who still think Arabs are terrorists, but there's still a "general consensus" amongst certain groups of people that Arabs are terrorists. Also, you said "For something to be a general consensus, a majority of people have to agree with the said statement". According to this, you seem to view "general consensus" as always correct, which is just terrible. The general consensus amongst Germans around 1930's was that Jewish people were evil or inferior. Nowadays, we know they were blatantly wrong, but as I said before, generalizations are just too wrong and messy to even think about using them. If you say all pro-life people are homophobes, sexist, racist and very conservative people, then what keeps me from saying all "Black people are criminals"?

 

[Sprinkles_penguin]

First off I think trying to say man's or woman's opinion is invalid is just stupid overall. I care more about where that opinion is coming from. If its coming from a male OBGYN or other doctor related to healthcare especially in that field.... yeah I want that person's input. Usually its because there is some genetic abnormality that means the fetus' chance of living to birth is very small (Trisomy 18/13 or Turner Syndrome).

I've seen a 12 week terminated fetus outside the womb and I guarantee you it does not look much like a human... A person is 50% DNA from each parent, I stand that that means each parent needs equal say in determining what is done. The woman carries the child, but a man is also never given the opportunity to do that... If I'm counseling a family about this decision and the husband/father of the baby isn't participating you better believe I'm gonna engage him and figure out what he thinks.

Also the comparison to slavery was just.... weird. Pretty sure slavery was still profitable during the civil war times, hence why the south (where agriculture was a prominent industry) fought so strongly, because the slave labor was cheap. The north didn't hide slaves in their houses and fight a war because of a washed up factor of an industry not as relevant to them..... this is getting off topic

The last thing I'll touch on is the elected terminations based on genetic conditions like down syndrome. I've worked with children with special needs in an overnight camp and essentially acted as a parent to these kids for a few days. In that time I got so much respect for those parents and really learned that its so hard to have that as your life. Most genetic conditions are not chosen to happen (the majority of cases of down syndrome have no reason for them, they can happen in any pregnancy). Yes you have the religious people who get through it because "god brought them that child" and thats great for them. However I also fully recognize that a family may not be capable to raise a child with special needs, may be terrified of what might be ahead in that situation that they had no control over. So if they choose to terminate, I want to make sure they are fully aware of the options and have an accurate idea of what its like to raise a child with special needs before making that decision.... but that is there decision and I fully support it in my field (Genetic counseling)

In summary, you can assume all you want and read as many articles on the internet. But until you actually experience something in the field and work with people who have disabilities or children with disabilities or go through an abortion/termination then, yeah your opinion is gonna hold less credit in my eyes....

Stay in school children

First of all, thank you very much for stating that men can have a word in this debate.

Secondly, about what you said regarding birth defects and saying women should have the opportunity to abort them, just sickens me. It's really not any different to Nietzche's racial ideologies (the one who naz1s based on), about eliminating all the sick and weak to evolve into a superior race until we get to be superhumans. It's really sad how people are harvesting babies based on their physical qualities.

Also, I don't know what you saw (probably the dismembered body parts of the baby, hence why you couldn't relate it to a human), but a fetus already has a head, a brain, a heart, legs and arms. Doesn't it look human already to you? Also, basing on wether mother should perform abortion or not is based on wether the fetus looks human or not feels just like you've just jumped too far the deep end. Not all humans look alike. Some may have only 1 leg, some may have 6 fingers, some may just be different to what you have preconceived as a human figure. A caterpillar doesn't look like a butterfly, but they are both the same species, just in different stages of development.

 

[LambdaDelta]

Secondly, about what you said regarding birth defects and saying women should have the opportunity to abort them, just sickens me. It's really not any different to Nietzche's racial ideologies (the one who naz1s based on), about eliminating all the sick and weak to evolve into a superior race until we get to be superhumans. It's really sad how people are harvesting babies based on their physical qualities.

you need to log the **** off of whatever psychotic websites you've been on, because holy ****

 

[Sprinkles_penguin]

Which is why I asked you two questions following your first response which you very much ignored. Don't tell me that I'm assuming when you choose not to answer what I've already asked. What I described was not solely for you, and until you've actually experienced how clinics operate first hand I don't see why you should be speaking for them.

No, I haven't ever worked on an abortion clinic and it feels like a really weird question because aside from the fact that I'm against abortion (except in rape or health issues with the mother), they aren't any where I live and I'm still underage so I can't work. Also, no, they don't shout with megaphones at women, but when have pro-life people done that? Even if t was not solely for me, I feel like generalizing is very wrong. Also, have you ever experienced how clinics operate? Do you work at one? If not, then according to your statement, neither you, 90% of the people on this thread and me should have a word on this.

 

[LambdaDelta]

also maybe stop playing the slavery/nazi/whatever bad thing card every chance you feel you get, because you're starting to look mentally insane instead

especially when you just proceed to ignore any piece of advice or information people give to you regarding the topic just to make these "comparisons"

 

[Han Solo]

100% pro-choice yo

 

[JackACNL]

ive got a penis so my opinion doesnt matter lol

women can do whatever they want doesn't concern me i think its pretty messed up for men to be making rules for them tho

 

[toadsworthy]

Secondly, about what you said regarding birth defects and saying women should have the opportunity to abort them, just sickens me. It's really not any different to Nietzche's racial ideologies (the one who naz1s based on), about eliminating all the sick and weak to evolve into a superior race until we get to be superhumans. It's really sad how people are harvesting babies based on their physical qualities.

The term you're looking for is eugenics. The systemic picking of people and killing them because of some perceived attribute being more desirable than the other, like yes, what happened in the Holocaust. However I think there are some very big differences in those, so to compare it to that is kinda wrong.

And again, I'm gonna go out on a limb, and say you don't know what its like to care for a child with a severe disability... and while some people can do this and go through a lot, I don't fault those who don't think they are strong enough.... its an extremely hard decision to go through to decide that, and those people shouldn't have the social ramifications from other people put on top of it. Hitler said, jews and everyone not blonde hair blue eyes should be killed.... so yeah different context.

Are we grieving for the majority of spontaneous abortions that happen yearly, some of which women may not even be aware of because they happen so early? Are we honoring everything from a newly fertilized zygote to these 1 week fetuses that don't attach to the uterine wall.... no, the line has to be drawn somewhere and the 24 week mark does that.

 

[LambdaDelta]

my pro-choice self is saying we should abort this thread fyi

 

[Dinosaurz]

The world is a harsh enough place as it is, don’t make the world sound sunshine and rainbows when it’s not. Especially when you’re born into a family that can’t support you or care for you. I 100% believe that foetuses can’t absorb information and understanding. But a child can when born into an unwanted family.

Too much **** in the world as it is, I feel sorry for anyone born into the world full stop imo

 

[JackACNL]

yes

 

[MelloDimensions]

No, I haven't ever worked on an abortion clinic and it feels like a really weird question because aside from the fact that I'm against abortion (except in rape or health issues with the mother), they aren't any where I live and I'm still underage so I can't work. Also, no, they don't shout with megaphones at women, but when have pro-life people done that? Even if t was not solely for me, I feel like generalizing is very wrong. Also, have you ever experienced how clinics operate? Do you work at one? If not, then according to your statement, neither you, 90% of the people on this thread and me should have a word on this.

They do shout out to these women with megaphones. Screaming obscenities like how they'll burn in hell or that they're murderers.
Also, no I haven't, but I also haven't been slandering them either

 

[SensaiGallade]

Why should I, or any person for a matter of fact, have a say in what you do with YOUR BODY. And that's all I'll say.

 

[Dinosaurz]

Why should I, or any person for a matter of fact, have a say in what you do with YOUR BODY. And that's all I'll say.

Unfortunately, “pro life” people don’t believe that the foetus belongs to them. Which is stupid Bcuz they can’t survive without the host (mother).

 

[duckykate]

They do shout out to these women with megaphones. Screaming obscenities like how they'll burn in hell or that they're murderers.

when I was in middle school, a bunch of pro-lifers gathered outside of my school and had a giant 30 foot banner with a picture of an aborted fetus, for our 12 year old eyes to see. They shouted at us as the busses drove away. It was NASTAY

 

[Sprinkles_penguin]

Hey, brother, I don't wanna argue with you on your stance here. I think you have every right to speak with that level of conviction, and believe in whatever you want. That's your right, and you're clearly very passionate about this.

However, in regards to this part of your argument:

I just want to say that the reason we can't speak on abortion the same way as other users here is because we are coming from a limited perspective. It's not that we can't or shouldn't have any opinion or say. I agree with you there, that the father's opinion does matter, but his opinion is coming through the lens of someone who cannot phantom or truly empathize with the decision being made. (To the extent that a woman can, that is.)

His opinion is also coming from the perspective of someone who didn't grow up with the same fear and shame tactics that women face, and who's livelihood/health isn't directly affected.

It's like race or poverty. Can a white person have an opinion of the discrimination of minorities? Absolutely, and he can empathize to some extent, but never fully. There are social interworkings and societal dynamics that even if explained to you, won't be fully comprehensible. If I described what breaking your leg felt like, you'd get it, but you also wouldn't know that pain, y'know?

It's important to remember your limited perspective, and that you're speaking on life altering decisions that you will never have to make, feel, or decide. And that the people you're arguing with here are the people who will have to face those things. Even if you were pro choice, you wouldn't face the same backlash and legal prosecution that women would. You also wouldn't have to live with the same amount of pain and guilt.
They're telling you how they feel man, and yes, how they feel does matter more than how you think on this topic.

It's easy for you to speak this stance. It's easy for me to say the opposite. Women don't have that privilege, this affects whether they are socially and legally prosecuted. So, all I'm saying is, when you're writing back and forth to these users, try to remember that they are coming from a whole different world, that is more complicated than just if cells are alive or not. You don't have to change your stance, but try to learn something from them.

Ok thank you very much for establishing a respectful and peaceful debating environment. I really appreciate that. I know that men don't really feel the pain or the pressure that a woman would, but it still concerns us as society. Also, if women have the right to reserve certain political debates to them, I think according to that perspective, we men should also have certain aspects of society or political debates reserved to us (not that I actually think it's fair, I think that political debates concern us all as a society).

Also, you said "And that the people you're arguing with here are the people who will have to face those things." It's actually pretty interesting because a great part of the people who posted in this thread have the gender part as "undisclosed" so no, we can't know for sure if EVERYONE ELSE who posted here might have a more important opinion on this because they are "women" when we don't know for sure.

Also, I know that my view may be limited up to some point, but do you really think, for instance, white people can't understand the suffering of minorities, even if they volunteer or donate or really get involved in it? But you know what? Even if we didn't really knew if they really understood the pain, we rely on them and on the existence of empathy. Sure, not a single human will ever feel the same pain as the other, but they can empathize, and that's enough and as far as we can get.

You said "His opinion is also coming from the perspective of someone who didn't grow up with the same fear and shame tactics that women face, and who's livelihood/health isn't directly affected." I know I will never suffer any health issues from pregnancy, but I know that I still face insecurity in the streets. Actually, in the country where I live, although they always highlight that feminicides have increased, still a lot more men die from murder than women do. I know the rape is more common against women, but murder and suicide is way more common in men. Also, finally, thank you very much, I actually learned a lot with this well-done response.

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you need to log the **** off of whatever psychotic websites you've been on, because holy ****

Umm, sorry, I don't engage on those type of websites, this is just from my ethics & philosophy class honey

 

[seliph]

I think according to that perspective, we men should also have certain aspects of society or political debates reserved to us

i don't wish to further discuss abortion with you because i don't think we're going to ever be on the same page but i am curious which issues you believe would fall under this umbrella

 

[Sprinkles_penguin]

also maybe stop playing the slavery/nazi/whatever bad thing card every chance you feel you get, because you're starting to look mentally insane instead

especially when you just proceed to ignore any piece of advice or information people give to you regarding the topic just to make these "comparisons"

Ok sorry psychologist LambaDelta. Do you have any other diagnosis over myself? Which medicines should I take dr. LambaDelta? Also I've stated in several posts that I appreciate their opinion and that they quote external sites. That means I'm not ignoring the information they give me.

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The term you're looking for is eugenics. The systemic picking of people and killing them because of some perceived attribute being more desirable than the other, like yes, what happened in the Holocaust. However I think there are some very big differences in those, so to compare it to that is kinda wrong.

And again, I'm gonna go out on a limb, and say you don't know what its like to care for a child with a severe disability... and while some people can do this and go through a lot, I don't fault those who don't think they are strong enough.... its an extremely hard decision to go through to decide that, and those people shouldn't have the social ramifications from other people put on top of it. Hitler said, jews and everyone not blonde hair blue eyes should be killed.... so yeah different context.

Are we grieving for the majority of spontaneous abortions that happen yearly, some of which women may not even be aware of because they happen so early? Are we honoring everything from a newly fertilized zygote to these 1 week fetuses that don't attach to the uterine wall.... no, the line has to be drawn somewhere and the 24 week mark does that.

First off, thank you for the term, I had forgot it.
But at the end, we're choosing babies based on their physical features right? I don't see why saying some babies with birth defects should be aborted is any less evil than saying "all jews must die" or " all not blonde people must die".

And also, comparing spontaneous abortions with intentional abortions is just totally nonsense. It would be like comparing intentional murder against an accident you have no control of.

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They do shout out to these women with megaphones. Screaming obscenities like how they'll burn in hell or that they're murderers.
Also, no I haven't, but I also haven't been slandering them either

Well probably the situation of this is very different where you live (because we don't get that kind of stuff where I live) but what we do get is pro-choice people blocking streets, leaving traces of trash and literally shouting at random passengers. However, I never said ALL pro-choice people are like the very few pool of pro-choice people I've met. I don't generalize. But should I?

Also, according to what you said, yeah, you're not slandering them (me neither) but then as you never experienced an abortion or worked at an abortion center, you must not have a work on this.

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Unfortunately, “pro life” people don’t believe that the foetus belongs to them. Which is stupid Bcuz they can’t survive without the host (mother).

Yeah, the fetus wouldn't ever survive without the mother! Also, I'd like to make clear to everyone on this thread that by saying mother you're already claiming the fetus is alive and thus deserves protection. Also, pro-choice people should stop using the term "fetus" literally means something along the lines of little child, so you then you're already accepting the fetus is alive.

 

[seliph]

yael i think you should stop comparing abortion to issues like antisemitism and slavery/antiblackness, it's rather insensitive to jewish people and to black people to use their struggles as an argument point when they aren't relevant to the conversation at hand, plus they aren't necessary to get your point across.