How do you feel about making friends with opposing or different beliefs?

[Envy]

I dont think lgbt are specifically mentioned in human rights, outside of the fact they are humans.
So I think when it comes to like the right to marriage, it was more about defining marriage than anything else. And I get being defensive about marriage as to many, gay marriage is a corruption of their religion.

Unless you live in a theocracy, religion is separate from government. Where I live (the US) we're supposed to have freedom of religion, which means that no religion should be able to dictate our laws. The legalization of same-sex marriage has nothing to do with religion. Absolutely nothing at all.

You see this is all about human rights being curtailed under the name of false "religious freedom". Your religion has no right to tell me how to live my life.

And I don't have much respect for religious objections to LGBT people to begin with, because no one actually follows the Bible in its entirety, they just pick and choose what fits their own prejudices. It all comes down on them individually as people. They should be better.

If there are any other human rights people think lgbt shouldn't have, then they clearly are very scummy. It's not enough to make me question if I would like them as a person though so long as they're not actively judgemental back or trying to change laws.

And at what point do you draw the line at where someone is trying to change the laws? Because if they hold these conservative views, chances are they vote, and when conservative politicians get voted into office, these human rights are under assault.

There's such a thin line here that it'd be extremely rare where someone bigoted isn't ultimately harming human rights.

 

[Moritz]

Unless you live in a theocracy, religion is separate from government. Where I live (the US) we're supposed to have freedom of religion, which means that no religion should be able to dictate our laws. The legalization of same-sex marriage has nothing to do with religion. Absolutely nothing at all.

You see this is all about human rights being curtailed under the name of false "religious freedom". Your religion has no right to tell me how to live my life.

And I don't have much respect for religious objections to LGBT people to begin with, because no one actually follows the Bible in its entirety, they just pick and choose what fits their own prejudices. It all comes down on them individually as people. They should be better.



And at what point do you draw the line at where someone is trying to change the laws? Because if they hold these conservative views, chances are they vote, and when conservative politicians get voted into office, these human rights are under assault.

There's such a thin line here that it'd be extremely rare where someone bigoted isn't ultimately harming human rights.

Marriage has it origins in religion and is part of their religion. We didnt change the name of it. We did just take it from them.
I dont feel guilty at all, I just see why they might be annoyed.

And as for who people vote for, I think that is fully their business and I find it awful how judgemental and horrible to others we have become as a society when it comes to those who vote differently.

I feel bad saying it as I know it makes me a hypocrit, but I fully hold contempt for those who will hold someone's vote over them and deem them a bad person for voting right instead of left.

 

[Envy]

Marriage has it origins in religion and is part of their religion. We didnt change the name of it. We did just take it from them.
I dont feel guilty at all, I just see why they might be annoyed.

Marriage as a concept is not Christian's. It is a concept that has been around for a very long time in multiple cultures.

In modern society, marriage is a legal contract, which establishes rights between two people that other couples do not have. If same-sex people are not allowed to be married it is discrimination by law.

And as for who people vote for, I think that is fully their business and I find it awful how judgemental and horrible to others we have become as a society when it comes to those who vote differently.

I feel bad saying it as I know it makes me a hypocrit, but I fully hold contempt for those who will hold someone's vote over them and deem them a bad person for voting right instead of left.

Voting is one huge way that bigotry has consequences on all of the rest of us. Why should who and what someone votes for be something that they can not be judged for when it has such large consequences on us? Especially when I am someone who is personally effected.

Our culture sure wants us to treat politics like it is this subject that you can not judge someone from, all while tying human rights to it. That is bullcrap. Politics does not exist in a vacuum, and whoever/whatever someone votes for speaks volumes about them.

 

[daringred_]

i could never be friends with someone who is homophobic, racist, anti-abortion etc. those ""beliefs"" are so far from my own it'd be impossible. even if we never talked about it, i'd still know. people can say whatever they want about how it's allegedly okay so long as those people aren't actively campaigning, but you don't need to actively campaign for those views to negatively effect minorities and be an issue. even if a homophobe isn't going out to protest a pride parade, they're still probably voting for a homophobic politician and subsequently potentially putting that homophobic politician in office and giving them the opportunity to enforce homophobic laws that harm LGBT+ folk. twist it whichever way you want, but that view is going to negatively effect people in some way whether the person is vocal about it or not.

religion is a different matter. i'm an atheist, but as long as you don't preach to me, go on about your religion extensively or use it as an excuse to express/push the above views, we'll get along just fine.

 

[Moritz]

Marriage as a concept is not Christian's. It is a concept that has been around for a very long time in multiple cultures.

In modern society, marriage is a legal contract, which establishes rights between two people that other couples do not have. If same-sex people are not allowed to be married it is discrimination by law.

Not fully Christian, its shared by many regions, but they all share the same origins.
Its religious.

And yes I know today we hold it to different standards, but it does still hold the same name.

So I get being grumpy. I dont agree. But I get it.

Voting is one huge way that bigotry has consequences on all of the rest of us. Why should who and what someone votes for be something that they can not be judged for when it has such large consequences on us? Especially when I am someone who is personally effected.

Our culture sure wants us to treat politics like it is this subject that you can not judge someone from, all while tying human rights to it. That is bullcrap.

Hating those who vote differently to you is the definition of bigotry. Just want to throw that out there. We aren't all clean in this.

And what you see as one thing, they might see as something else.
Instead of trying to understand others, automatically disliking those who think differently from you only furthers the divide between people and makes our society worse.

Its not being a better person. It's being just as bad as you think they are.

 

[Envy]

Not fully Christian, its shared by many regions, but they all share the same origins.
Its religious.

And yes I know today we hold it to different standards, but it does still hold the same name.

So I get being grumpy. I dont agree. But I get it.

Way back thousands of years ago marriage may have been through religion. The reason for that being was that pretty much all authority and institutions were through the church. Times have changed, and thus institutions have become separate and are now based in the government.

Hating those who vote differently to you is the definition of bigotry. Just want to throw that out there. We aren't all clean in this.

And what you see as one thing, they might see as something else.
Instead of trying to understand others, automatically disliking those who think differently from you only furthers the divide between people and makes our society worse.

Its not being a better person. It's being just as bad as you think they are.

Ah yes, the good ol' "Intolerance of Intolerance is Intolerance" rhetoric. Listen, it just doesn't work that way. You don't get to so easily both sides this. The original intolerance - which takes away human rights - is always the problem.

 

[WaileaNoRei]

Like others are saying here, I am fine with having difference of opinion with people about a variety of issues, including politics or religion. I have friends who are Buddhist, catholic, Christian, Muslim, and also non-religious. I can be friends with people who have a variety of views on how to approach societal problems.

However, issues such as whether lgbt, people of color, or women (or anyone else) deserve equal rights and fair treatment are not differences of opinion. I cannot consider a bigot a friend, though of course I can remain respectful of them as human beings (even if they may not want to extend that same courtesy to me or others) and behave in a friendly and courteous manner (such as in the workplace or in general incidental polite encounters) as long as those people are not trying to discuss/ force their bigotry with me.

and as others have said, if you say you are not homophobic, or racist, or etc. but support a politician or party or policies that do support those things that just means you are also either lying, a fool, or a hypocrite. What especially has driven me crazy is the argument ‘well I support X politician, who is a known terrible person, but his racism/ homophobia/ sexism/ whatever doesn’t effect me or I don’t want to hurt anyone, so it isn’t wrong.’
For example, if you support a politician who wants to take rights away from transgender children that does in fact hurt someone - those children and their families and loved ones. On the other hand, it does not hurt anyone at all to say that you cannot be friends with someone who thinks transgender people shouldn’t have rights - you aren’t harming them, or depriving them of anything. It is not unfair to hold someone responsible for the consequences of their actions.

The idea that politics don’t matter is a fantasy reserved for the privileged. Politics have real effects on real people everyday, and your politics are your values and morals.

saying you can’t be friends with someone who does not share your same values and morals is not a controversial position in my opinion. No one is owed friendship and it is not harmful to anyone to not befriend someone. (unlike voting to take away people’s rights and safety).

 

[Moritz]

Way back thousands of years ago marriage may have been through religion. The reason for that being was that pretty much all authority and institutions were through the church. Times have changed, and thus institutions have become separate and are now based in the government.



Ah yes, the good ol' "Intolerance of Intolerance is Intolerance" rhetoric. Listen, it just doesn't work that way. You don't get to so easily both sides this. The original intolerance - which takes away human rights - is always the problem.

I'm not both siding it as such.
I have my own beliefs and I will stand up for them.

I believe no one should be treated differently or poorly based on race, sex, gender, seduality, age, disability... political beliefs...

If someone thinks differently to you, and you think their views harm the world. I think it does far more harm to the world to treat them like a bad person and isolate them.

All it does it make them double down on their beliefs as they are now victims of a world that does not tolerate them.

It doesn't get rid of the problem. It just shifts it.

 

[daringred_]

Ah yes, the good ol' "Intolerance of Intolerance is Intolerance" rhetoric. Listen, it just doesn't work that way. You don't get to so easily both sides this. The original intolerance - which takes away human rights - is always the problem.

it's called "the paradox of tolerance" -- the idea that society can never truly be completely tolerant because it shouldn't tolerate intolerance. (i.e. bigotry) that is to say you cannot tolerate both LGBT+ folk and homophobes (for example) in the same space, because the homophobes will not tolerate the LGBT+ folk and ultimately drive them away. when you try to extend unlimited tolerance to even those who are intolerant, and aren't prepared to defend a tolerant society against them, then the tolerant will be destroyed and, with them, tolerance itself. or, in another way:

​

"You can say 'all are welcome,' but if wolves and sheep are both welcome then you're only going to get wolves. The smart sheep will go somewhere else, and the naive sheep will be eaten and processed. If you welcome Islamophobes and Muslims then you'll get Islamophobes. If you welcome Klan members and people of color then you'll get Klan members. If you welcome nativists and immigrants you'll get nativists.​

​

Refusing to choose is a choice. It's a choice in favor of the people who prey on others and who refuse to acknowledge the humanity of those they hate."​

 

[Envy]

I believe no one should be treated differently or poorly based on race, sex, gender, seduality, age, disability... political beliefs...

One of those (political beliefs) is not like the others. None of those other traits can be chosen, but political beliefs you choose (or change as you learn more). If they are harmful to others, and you lose friends over that, that's on you.

If someone thinks differently to you, and you think their views harm the world. I think it does far more harm to the world to treat them like a bad person and isolate them.

All it does it make them double down on their beliefs as they are now victims of a world that does not tolerate them.

It doesn't get rid of the problem. It just shifts it.

I do get where you're coming from a little, but there's more to this than that.

First of all, this topic is about friends. Why should I have to be friends with people who think I'm going to Hell and that I don't deserve rights? Do I not, at least have the ability to be able to avoid these people who are cruel to me?

Secondly, the problem is that bigots act like they're the victim no matter what. They act like the mere existence of a same-sex couple or a transgender person is an affront to them and society. If you try to tiptoe around these people you just end up suppressing LGBT people.

 

[Moritz]

One of those (political beliefs) is not like the others. None of those other traits can be chosen, but political beliefs you choose (or change as you learn more). If they are harmful to others, and you lose friends over that, that's on you.



I do get where you're coming from a little, but there's more to this than that.

First of all, this topic is about friends. Why should I have to be friends with people who think I'm going to Hell and that I don't deserve rights? Do I not, at least have the ability to be able to avoid these people who are cruel to me?

Secondly, the problem is that bigots act like they're the victim no matter what. They act like the mere existence of a same-sex couple or a transgender person is an affront to them and society. If you try to tiptoe around these people you just end up suppressing LGBT people.

It is about friends. Which is partly why I feel so strongly about it.
If you know someone and get one with them well out side of some policitical differences.
You could be what they need to become a better person. Or you could be the thing that makes them never change.

All I know is the more I hear I am stupid and wrong and privileged just for being a white man, the more I cant stand to listen to anything those types of people have to say.
And I assume its the same for others.

So if you want to make someone less racist or homophobic, be their friend and make them understand.

Hatred just brings on hated

 

[Envy]

It is about friends. Which is partly why I feel so strongly about it.
If you know someone and get one with them well out side of some policitical differences.
You could be what they need to become a better person. Or you could be the thing that makes them never change.

All I know is the more I hear I am stupid and wrong and privileged just for being a white man, the more I cant stand to listen to anything those types of people have to say.
And I assume its the same for others.

So if you want to make someone less racist or homophobic, be their friend and make then understand.

Hatred just brings on hated

Some minorities/members of disadvantaged groups may be more open to being friends with bigots, but don't expect all of us to be. We are not all here to be that example of a "good one" for a bigot. We are people who just want to live our lives without constantly dealing with people telling us that we're going to Hell and that we shouldn't have rights.

And you know what, I have been friends with a very bigoted person before. We both appreciate classic music from the 60s/70s, Classical music, Early Music, and anime (a rare combination lol). I was never rude to him, I never cast him down, just told him I was disappointed when he posted something on Facebook comparing gay people to pedophiles and bestiality. Do you know what happened later when he made a public nonpology (since he went on spewing all of this same bigotry all over again later)? He said "See, I have gay friends".

That is what you can get when you are friends with a bigot, you become their token "gay friends" excuse that they can whip out after they receive backlash. Excuse me if I don't want to do that again.

BTW, don't make the mistake in thinking this is the incident that made me this way. It's just one example. I have much deeper reasons for not wanting to be friends with bigots than just one incident.

 

[MiniPocketWorld]

One of those (political beliefs) is not like the others. None of those other traits can be chosen, but political beliefs you choose (or change as you learn more). If they are harmful to others, and you lose friends over that, that's on you.



I do get where you're coming from a little, but there's more to this than that.

First of all, this topic is about friends. Why should I have to be friends with people who think I'm going to Hell and that I don't deserve rights? Do I not, at least have the ability to be able to avoid these people who are cruel to me?

Secondly, the problem is that bigots act like they're the victim no matter what. They act like the mere existence of a same-sex couple or a transgender person is an affront to them and society. If you try to tiptoe around these people you just end up suppressing LGBT people.

I'm not speaking for you, but for myself. I have friends who think I am going to hell because I don't believe the same as them or have the same religion. Why am I friends with them still? Because there is more to a person than that. And I don't like enabling ignorance. Being friends with others does give the opportunity for learning and understanding perceptions and experiences. What I may have been exposed to or experienced that shaped a belief or opinion of mine may not be the same as theirs, thus both people come to different conclusions and vary well may not change from those positions unless their life bubble expands in some way.
That is my choice and how I live. Just sharing. No judgement on others who don't.

I do agree that marriage did come out of religion. (not christianity only, just like how multiple religions believe in a hell) However many societies have moved on to have marriage as a civil thing and not always tied with religion.

 

[Midoriya]

In the same vein I cannot be friends with people who hate on people who have autism/Aspergers (which is what I have) and other disabilities, I cannot be friends with people who are anti-LGBT, racist, sexist, or anything else like that either because all of those things are fundamental to who we are. I will still show those people basic respect and courtesy, but I do not want to be friends with them. Should mention I’m also a Christian as well, but I know the same acceptance I want as a person with a disability is the same acceptance anyone else wants for who they are. Acceptance and not pity. My favorite thing about life is embracing each other’s differences. After all, that’s what makes life so beautiful and gives it zest!

 

[Moritz]

Some minorities/members of disadvantaged groups may be more open to being friends with bigots, but don't expect all of us to be. We are not all here to be that example of a "good one" for a bigot. We are people who just want to live our lives without constantly dealing with people telling us that we're going to Hell and that we shouldn't have rights.

And you know what, I have been friends with a very bigoted person before. We both appreciate classic music from the 60s/70s, Classical music, Early Music, and anime (a rare combination lol). I was never rude to him, I never cast him down, just told him I was disappointed when he posted something on Facebook comparing gay people to pedophiles and bestiality. Do you know what happened later when he made a public nonpology (since he went on spewing all of this same bigotry all over again later)? He said "See, I have gay friends".

That is what you can get when you are friends with a bigot, you become their token "gay friends" excuse that they can whip out after they receive backlash. Excuse me if I don't want to do that again.

BTW, don't make the mistake in thinking this is the incident that made me this way. It's just one example. I have much deeper reasons for not wanting to be friends with bigots than just one incident.

I'm not saying you should be the example as such and I do believe it is your right to not put up with it.

I guess I'm more annoyed with the idea that it makes the world a better place. It makes it a worse place. And the more people who refuse to partake in it, the worse it becomes.

So long as the person knows they are contributing to making the world a worse place, I don't mind.

 

[Dunquixote]

In another thread about this, I did post that I could depending on if they don’t try to preach to me their beliefs. I like to avoid talks of politics if possible, so at a point I thought as long as there is mutual respect between us and no one attacking the other for how they feel, that friendship is possible. Now, I guess it depends on what it is. If they are racist, homophobic, or have issues with people with mental health issues (or get annoyed when I am blacking out from drinking a drink too fast and having an anxiety attack at the same time and act like I choose to be anxious), then I don’t think we can be friends since I am not white and have so many mental health issues and I have friends who are in the LGBT community. Also definitely will not be friends with people who believes anything they read online and don’t question things (especially if it is things like ethnic cleansing, treason, voter fraud, etc…)

 

[daringred_]

personally, i don't believe that anyone is obligated to be friends with someone who holds a view that ultimately harms or invalidates them. it's not LGBT+ people's responsibility to repeatedly educate homophobes or be the "token gay friend" etc. that bigots can use to justify their behavior. (same goes for other minorities.) i'm embarrassed for anyone who thinks minorities/victims of bigotry are somehow making the world "worse" or are "equally as bad" just because they don't want to go out of their way to befriend and/or educate people who try to oppress them when said people have the means and opportunity to a) educate themselves or b) politely open conversation with the people they're against but actively choose not to.

 

[Moritz]

personally, i don't believe that anyone is obligated to be friends with someone who holds a view that ultimately harms or invalidates them. it's not LGBT+ people's responsibility to repeatedly educate homophobes or be the "token gay friend" etc. that bigots can use to justify their behavior. (same goes for other minorities.) i'm embarrassed for anyone who thinks minorities/victims of bigotry are somehow making the world "worse" or are "equally as bad" just because they don't want to go out of their way to befriend and/or educate people who try to oppress them when said people have the means and opportunity to a) educate themselves or b) politely open conversation with the people they're against but actively choose not to.

Its not the first time I've said this to you, but I'll say it again.

Please quote me if you are going to very clearly talk about me on a thread I'm active on.

 

[Manah]

If your "belief" involves denying other people basic rights, absolutely not. That's not controversial, that's unacceptable.

If it's something that doesn't affect others, like religious/spiritual beliefs that don't fall into the above category, or diet choices, as long as you don't try to force them on me and accept mine we're good.

 

[daringred_]

Its not the first time I've said this to you, but I'll say it again.

Please quote me if you are going to very clearly talk about me on a thread I'm active on.

if it was directly about you, and only you, i would have quoted you. this is an opinion i held before ever joining this forum and will continue to hold afterwards. you're not the first person i've seen say such things, and you won't be the last. i didn't quote you because it's a broad statement about anyone who thinks that way, not just you, and all you did was remind me of it. that and i'm just not looking for a debate/discussion. one can say, "oh well then you shouldn't have said it" but i said it to show my agreement with/support for envy on the same topic, and i shouldn't have to hold my tongue anyway just because people might want to debate/argue about my stance. if they then quote my post looking to do so, that's their choice -- i just won't be responding.