How do you feel about making friends with opposing or different beliefs?

[Moritz]

I'm going to drop out of the thread now as I've said my points and I dont think I will change any minds.

I dont feel the need for me to upset others or for me to be upset by others if it gets us nowhere.

Still love you all, and not judging (the best I can) for your beliefs.

As I said, I know my Intolerance to others Intolerance to Intolerance is hypocritical so I'll try to work on it.

I really truly believe the world would be a much better place without hate from any and all sides

Post automatically merged: Jun 12, 2021

if it was directly about you, and only you, i would have quoted you. this is an opinion i held before ever joining this forum and will continue to hold afterwards. you're not the first person i've seen say such things, and you won't be the last. i didn't quote you because it's a broad statement about anyone who thinks that way, not just you, and all you did was remind me of it. that and i'm just not looking for a debate/discussion. one can say, "oh well then you shouldn't have said it" but i said it to show my agreement with/support for envy on the same topic, and i shouldn't have to hold my tongue anyway just because people might want to debate/argue about my stance. if they then quote my post looking to do so, that's their choice -- i just won't be responding.

I apologise then
I hope you can see why I felt it was directly pointed at me since they were the points I made and no one else made them on the thread.

It felt you were directly calling me an embarrassment... but I guess you were.
I was also in many ways saying those with your views were holding back society so I guess we are even on that front lol

As I said before this post, I don't think there is much to gain from me giving my views again so I shall agree to disagree and won't question your views

 

[fairysyndrome]

man, croconaw really has a knack for making controversial topic threads that spiral into debates.

someone on the first page said something along the lines that it’s not quite a disparity in beliefs, but one of morals, and i agree with that. i’m not going to give anyone whose morals drastically differ from mine — homophobes, transphobes, racists, antisemites, islamophobes, people who are anti-BLM etc etc so on and so forth — the time of day, and i’m not obligated to. i don’t care about how “good” or “nice” a person they are, because what they believe (or support, in the case of right-wingers who claim they’re not for oppression of rights) is more important to me in regards to their overall human decency than if they’re nice.

also, some people have some really skewed priorities over what they can and can’t tolerate. people who can turn the other cheek over things like racism and homophobia but draw the line at animal abuse (which I’m not saying is a good thing, but it’s weird to put animal rights over human rights) or people who are against homophobia but don’t care about transphobia and all that. i don’t want to deal with people like that either. you can’t pick and choose your battles when it comes to basic human decency and morality, and I’m not obligated to deal with people attempting to.

 

[Envy]

This might be getting into semantics, but I don't think I would even call this differing "beliefs"—to me, differing beliefs would be something along the lines of differing religions, whether or not you believe in fate or destiny, etc., and that stuff's fine. But if we're talking about human rights, I feel like that's a matter of differing morals. (Forgive me if this comes across as overly nitpicky, I just like thinking about words a lot.) I won't be friends with someone who doesn't think that I or anybody else deserves basic human rights. I don't want to associate with people like that at all, and I don't believe a friendship like that would have a good foundation—if I don't trust someone and they think I'm a failed person, are we really "friends" even if we act nice to each other?

Yes, this is what it comes down to: Morals, and I'm afraid someone who is against human rights has failed morally. Their core goodness as a person is at question.

I'm going to get deeper here and talk about what has disgusted me even more recently. There is a certain political figure in the US who has been practically worshiped by a certain political party for the past several years. This political figure bragged about sexual assaulting women because he had the power to get away with it. He also bragged about going into women's dressing rooms for the show he was running and checking out women naked because, guess what? He had the power to get away with it.

He has been labeled as God's chosen. He has been called "classy". He is beloved by this political party. The very same people who love this man, in the previous election saw a homosexual candidate running for president in the other party, and were disgusted, said that this was a moral failing of the US and that he would be a bad example for America. All because he is in a consensual relationship with an adult of the same-sex.

This just really sums it all up better than I ever can. This is why I use words like "vile". It does not come lightly. I can not respect people who excuse sexual assault while admonish homosexuality. (And then we can also get into the fact that these same people think that transgender women shouldn't be able to use women's facilities because of "think of the women/children!" Demonizing an innocent minority from a group of people who straight-up didn't care much when an actual threat to women and children [in dressing rooms, that is women's facilities!] was in power).

---

Anyway, what you said at the end is perfect. Can people who prejudiced against me really be my friend? Like honestly? When they think that what I am makes me less worthy of respect and human rights, how in the world can they be my friend? That is a bullcrap "friendship" if I've ever heard of one.

 

[Moritz]

man, croconaw really has a knack for making controversial topic threads that spiral into debates.

someone on the first page said something along the lines that it’s not quite a disparity in beliefs, but one of morals, and i agree with that. i’m not going to give anyone whose morals drastically differ from mine — homophobes, transphobes, racists, antisemites, islamophobes, people who are anti-BLM etc etc so on and so forth — the time of day, and i’m not obligated to. i don’t care about how “good” or “nice” a person they are, because what they believe (or support, in the case of right-wingers who claim they’re not for oppression of rights) is more important to me in regards to their overall human decency than if they’re nice.

also, some people have some really skewed priorities over what they can and can’t tolerate. people who can turn the other cheek over things like racism and homophobia but draw the line at animal abuse (which I’m not saying is a good thing, but it’s weird to put animal rights over human rights) or people who are against homophobia but don’t care about transphobia and all that. i don’t want to deal with people like that either. you can’t pick and choose your battles when it comes to basic human decency and morality, and I’m not obligated to deal with people attempting to.

I know I said I wouldn't comment again but I'm going to here lol.

I think when it comes to animals things are a lot more clean cut, as they don't have identities to worry about.

With them, so long as they are given food, water, and love, all is all good.

They might disagree with such things like if they should sit and eat, but they won't question who you are as a person or where you fit into society.

So animal rights are a lot easier to all agree on.

 

[daringred_]

I apologise then
I hope you can see why I felt it was directly pointed at me since they were the points I made and no one else made them on the thread.

It felt you were directly calling me an embarrassment... but I guess you were.
I was also in many ways saying those with your views were holding back society so I guess we are even on that front lol

As I said before this post, I don't think there is much to gain from me giving my views again so I shall agree to disagree and won't question your views

it's alright, i can understand why you might have thought it was a passive-aggressive slight at you specifically, but i can assure you it was just a broad statement about anyone who holds that view. i wouldn't say it was me saying you are an embarrassment, per se, either, just that i feel embarrassed for anyone who believes minorities fighting back against their oppressors and/or not wanting to engage with them are equally as bad when i personally don't consider the two equatable. that is to say: if bigots stopped spreading hate, minorities would stop pushing back, but if minorities stopped pushing back, bigots would not stop spreading hate. one side is clearly worse than the other so to claim they're equally as bad just seems irresponsible and ignorant to me.

 

[fairysyndrome]

I know I said I wouldn't comment again but I'm going to here lol.

I think when it comes to animals things are a lot more clean cut, as they don't have identities to worry about.

With them, so long as they are given food, water, and love, all is all good.

They might disagree with such things like if they should sit and eat, but they won't question who you are as a person or where you fit into society.

So animal rights are a lot easier to all agree on.

if you said you weren’t gonna comment again you might wanna stick with that, lest you keep breaking statement to keep coming back; i understand why people are so adamant about animal rights. I’m a pet owner, I get it. but even if they’re easier to agree on, though, the idea that people are so willing to go to bat for animals but aren’t willing to put human rights anywhere close onto the same page doesn’t sit right with me.

 

[Moritz]

it's alright, i can understand why you might have thought it was a passive-aggressive slight at you specifically, but i can assure you it was just a broad statement about anyone who holds that view. i wouldn't say it was me saying you are an embarrassment, per se, either, just that i feel embarrassed for anyone who believes minorities fighting back against their oppressors and/or not wanting to engage with them are equally as bad when i personally don't consider the two equatable. that is to say: if bigots stopped spreading hate, minorities would stop pushing back, but if minorities stopped pushing back, bigots would not stop spreading hate. one side is clearly worse than the other so to claim they're equally as bad just seems irresponsible and ignorant to me.

I think its a war that should be thought on both sides.
Like, people should certainly fight for their rights. I fully support that. For the most part, you won't get if you don't ask. Or in some cases demand.

But I also think that befriending those who think differently is important. If they don't feel victims or hate (which they would be it treated poorly) and can be brought to see how those who are different, aren't really that different, you can create allies, or at least lower resistance.

The way the world is right now, you have 2 political sides so much at each others throats, they both keep doubling down to dangerous levels.

Its getting quite scary on both ends

Post automatically merged: Jun 12, 2021

if you said you weren’t gonna comment again you might wanna stick with that, lest you keep breaking statement to keep coming back

I decided im actually going to be more reserved with my comments than actively stop

 

[daringred_]

I think its a war that should be thought on both sides.
Like, people should certainly fight for their rights. I fully support that. For the most part, you won't get if you don't ask. Or in some cases demand.

But I also think that befriending those who think differently is important. If they don't feel victims or hate (which they would be it treated poorly) and can be brought to see how those who are different, aren't really that different, you can create allies, or at least lower resistance.

The way the world is right now, you have 2 political sides so much at each others throats, they both keep doubling down to dangerous levels.

Its getting quite scary on both ends

here's the thing: an LGBT+ person who approaches a homophobe, even politely, and offers to educate them is far more likely to be attacked (physically or verbally) than a homophobe who politely approaches an LGBT+ person and asks to be educated. hence why i stand by what i said about it not being minorities' responsibility to educate their oppressors when said oppressors have the means, power, opportunity and advantage to educate themselves -- either through the internet or by approaching people who belong to the minority group they have issue with. take this recent example of a judge in india (article here) who actively sought to tackle his ignorance and beliefs re: LGBT+ folk before he made a ruling. to quote:

“Ignorance is no justification for normalising any form of discrimination,” he said, adding that he wanted to educate himself so his ignorance would not interfere with “guiding the LGBTQIA+ community towards social justice”.​

​

 

[Moritz]

here's the thing: an LGBT+ person who approaches a homophobe, even politely, and offers to educate them is far more likely to be attacked (physically or verbally) than a homophobe who politely approaches an LGBT+ person and asks to be educated. hence why i stand by what i said about it not being minorities' responsibility to educate their oppressors when said oppressors have the means, power, opportunity and advantage to educate themselves -- either through the internet or by approaching people who belong to the minority group they hate. take this recent example of a judge in india (article here) who actively sought to tackle his ignorance and beliefs re: LGBT+ folk before he made a ruling. to quote:

“Ignorance is no justification for normalising any form of discrimination,” he said, adding that he wanted to educate himself so his ignorance would not interfere with “guiding the LGBTQIA+ community towards social justice”.​

​

I dont think people should be actively befriending to make people confront their own prejudices.
That feels more like a lecture than a friendship and so more like an attack.

The thing is though, no one is going to want to question their beliefs, until they are given reason to. And someone going straight into it is never going to.

I know people aren't obligated to be friends with someone, but I always find, that friendship without lectures, is the best gateway to open doors.

For example, I had different views on trans people until a friend of mine came out as trans and started transitioning.

My love and care for the person trumped all my previous misconceptions and opened the door for thought.

If they sat me down and said why I'm wrong, I probably would have put up a lot of resistance.

I know it doesn't in all cases, but love really does trump hate. (Not that I ever hated trans people, just found it weird)

 

[MiniPocketWorld]

here's the thing: an LGBT+ person who approaches a homophobe, even politely, and offers to educate them is far more likely to be attacked (physically or verbally) than a homophobe who politely approaches an LGBT+ person and asks to be educated. hence why i stand by what i said about it not being minorities' responsibility to educate their oppressors when said oppressors have the means, power, opportunity and advantage to educate themselves -- either through the internet or by approaching people who belong to the minority group they have issue with. take this recent example of a judge in india (article here) who actively sought to tackle his ignorance and beliefs re: LGBT+ folk before he made a ruling. to quote:

“Ignorance is no justification for normalising any form of discrimination,” he said, adding that he wanted to educate himself so his ignorance would not interfere with “guiding the LGBTQIA+ community towards social justice”.​

​

And this is exactly why I have no judgement on those who decide not to have friends with opposing views. It is a complex interaction and can get dangerous regardless the topic. And this is exactly why it is important about being "picky" on who to be friends with.
I also thing, in a thread like this, it is important to define what people mean by friend. Many people will call everyday interactions with a person they happen to see because of their environment a friend. While for others, a friend you spend alot of time without outside of encounters that "just happen".

 

[Lavamaize]

"The responsibility of tolerance lies with those who have the wider vision." ~ George Eliot.

"Hatred does not cease through hatred at any time. Hatred ceases through love. This is an unalterable law." ~ Gautama Buddha

 

[Envy]

We no longer live in a narrow, closed world. You can easily meet people of all minorities from all over the world. Plus, we easily have history accessible to us and can easily see how minorities have been treated so poorly in the past and recognize when it is happening all over again and avoid falling into the very same pitfalls.

Bigots have access to the tools that can make them better. I am not one of those "tools". If they run into me into a place where we can't avoid each other, say at work, and see "Wow, she's not bad. She doesn't deserve to go to Hell", good. But I'm not going to be personally tasked with acquainting myself with people who treat me like dirt. This is their moral failing, not mine, and as I said, they have so many tools to know better.

 

[daringred_]

I dont think people should be actively befriending to make people confront their own prejudices.
That feels more like a lecture than a friendship and so more like an attack.

The thing is though, no one is going to want to question their beliefs, until they are given reason to. And someone going straight into it is never going to.

I know people aren't obligated to be friends with someone, but I always find, that friendship without lectures, is the best gateway to open doors.

For example, I had different views on trans people until a friend of mine came out as trans and started transitioning.

My love and care for the person trumped all my previous misconceptions and opened the door for thought.

If they sat me down and said why I'm wrong, I probably would have put up a lot of resistance.

I know it doesn't in all cases, but love really does trump hate. (Not that I ever hated trans people, just found it weird)

i... don't really think this addresses any of what i said? it still doesn't acknowledge how one side (bigots) will continue to hate minorities regardless of whether or not they fight back. or how, aside from it not being their duty or responsibility, minorities approaching bigots with the intention of educating them are vastly more likely to be attacked than vice versa. yes, it would be lovely if we could all just get along and love each other, but that's clearly not going to happen any time soon if ever. like i said: if bigots stopped oppressing us, we would not fight back. if we stopped fighting back, bigots would only continue to oppress us and with more devastating results.

if someone does not want to question their homophobia, that is not my or any other LGBT+ person's problem. if they can't look at a pride parade, a vibrant community celebrating love and support and identity, or two women kissing onscreen because they're happy and in-love just like any other couple and think, "maybe LGBT+ people aren't so bad after all; maybe i've misjudged them" instead of "gay pride is stupid; why isn't there a straight pride?" or "ew, why do the gays have to shove themselves down my throat in the media all the time" then that is 100% on them. (same goes for cases in other minority groups.)

 

[MiniPocketWorld]

It's rare for someone to recognize themselves as ignorant unless they are somehow "faced". I mean, just look at stereotypes whether it is about race, religion, gender, or sexuality. Look at how many people stereotype these kinds of things sometimes not even "catching" themselves doing it.

 

[Moritz]

i... don't really think this addresses any of what i said? it still doesn't acknowledge how one side (bigots) will continue to hate minorities regardless of whether or not they fight back. or how, aside from it not being their duty or responsibility, minorities approaching bigots with the intention of educating them are vastly more likely to be attacked than vice versa. yes, it would be lovely if we could all just get along and love each other, but that's clearly not going to happen any time soon if ever. like i said: if bigots stopped oppressing us, we would not fight back. if we stopped fighting back, bigots would only continue to oppress us and with more devastating results.

if someone does not want to question their homophobia, that is not my or any other LGBT+ person's problem. if they can't look at a pride parade, a vibrant community celebrating love and support and identity, or two women kissing onscreen because they're happy and in-love just like any other couple and think, "maybe LGBT+ people aren't so bad after all; maybe i've misjudged them" instead of "gay pride is stupid; why isn't there a straight pride?" or "ew, why do the gays have to shove themselves down my throat in the media all the time" then that is 100% on them. (same goes for cases in other minority groups.)

I think I did address it.
Yes things do have to be fought for.

But no one is going to change their mind based on abuse and hatred.

I'm gay myself and if I'm frank, pride makes me ashamed. They are a display of highly inappropriate sexual acts and debauchery.

If people see pride and don't like gay people... I get it fully. I get wanting to show the world how united you are and show lgbt they have a place and people they are welcome... but its not going to convince a homophobe they're wrong

 

[daringred_]

I think I did address it.
Yes things do have to be fought for.

But no one is going to change their mind based on abuse and hatred.

I'm gay myself and if I'm frank, pride makes me ashamed. They are a display of highly inappropriate sexual acts and debauchery.

If people see pride and don't like gay people... I get it fully. I get wanting to show the world how united you are and show lgbt they have a place and people they are welcome... but its not going to convince a homophobe they're wrong

if you think pride is embarrassing, about "highly inappropriate sexual acts and debauchery", and an excuse for people to hate LGBT+ folk, that is 100% on you and a horrible misjudgment. (and, to me at least, offensive.) personally, i'm not comfortable discussing this anymore. you're not going to change your stance, and i'm not going to change mine, that much is clear. there isn't much point debating it further, and i'd rather leave it here with you before i get any more upset.

 

[tiffanistarr]

It's rare for someone to recognize themselves as ignorant unless they are somehow "faced". I mean, just look at stereotypes whether it is about race, religion, gender, or sexuality. Look at how many people stereotype these kinds of things sometimes not even "catching" themselves doing it.

But in today's society how are you not faced with that stuff everyday? Like the world has literally never been more diverse and inclusive than it is right this moment and yet bigots are still loud and proud of their ridiculous dehumanizing morality. So what does it really take for them to realize the errors in their thinking and way of life? And why is that we have to be responsible for their education when in today's society it's literally everywhere the knowledge is everywhere.

 

[Moritz]

if you think pride is embarrassing, about "highly inappropriate sexual acts and debauchery", and an excuse for people to hate LGBT+ folk, that is 100% on you and a horrible misjudgment. (and, to me at least, offensive.) personally, i'm not comfortable discussing this anymore. you're not going to change your stance, and i'm not going to change mine, that much is clear. there isn't much point debating it further, and i'd rather leave it here with you before i get any more upset.

There is nothing wrong with pride in its concept.
But when you have people at pride walking people like dogs... I mean really? You expect a homophobe to see that and understand we are normal people? Like really?

 

[MiniPocketWorld]

But in today's society how are you not faced with that stuff everyday? Like the world has literally never been more diverse and inclusive than it is right this moment and yet bigots are still loud and proud of their ridiculous dehumanizing morality. So what does it really take for them to realize the errors in their thinking and way of life? And why is that we have to be responsible for their education when in today's society it's literally everywhere the knowledge is everywhere.

personally I think it hinges on experiences and interactions. I mean I could say the same about myself and my religion or other religions. I can't tell you how many times I have seen people on the forums make unfair judgements or opinions about a group of people because of their own bad experience. Sometimes it is called out, sometimes it isn't Sometimes there is an apology and sometimes there isn't.

The more personal positive experiences and interactions between people the better. Sure book reading helps and is important.

 

[Moritz]

personally I think it hinges on experiences and interactions. I mean I could say the same about myself and my religion or other religions. I can't tell you how many times I have seen people on the forums make unfair judgements or opinions about a group of people because of their own bad experience. Sometimes it is called out, sometimes it isn't Sometimes there is an apology and sometimes there isn't.

The more personal positive experiences and interactions between people the better. Sure book reading helps and is important.

This is purely personal experience of others (not talking about me) but when it comes to media and stuff, people can often see inclusion as agenda pushing and not something to learn from.

Just seeing it on TV or in books is nothing compared to knowing someone in real life you have bonds with.

Like, my mum used to make homophobic jokes all the time. I tried to kill myself. When I was in hospital, (its when she found out i was gay) she fully accepted me and never made a homophobic comment again.

She has been nothing but accepting and supportive since.

Love beats hate every time