New feature request; pronouns!

[mogyay]

That wasn't arguing, I gave my opinion and then left it at that. I even later clarified that I didn't understand the issue and wasn't trying to debate it but rather understand the issue better. Please don't try to paint me as being insensitive



I'd suggest reading the whole thread btw!

i'm merely explaining what tae might have meant in my opinion (i can't speak for tae), it is going to feel frustrating when you're commenting about something that would make your time on a forum more comfortable and then to hear someone who has admitted that it means nothing to them say that they don't fully see the point in that feature would feel kind of hurtful esp w comments like 'correct them and move on' clearly that's something that doesn't bother you but for so many people that can cause panic attacks and dysphoria

i apologise if i painted you in a certain way, was not intentional

 

[Zura]

edit: nvm

Hello everyone. I just want to point out something that has had to be pointed out in Brewster's Cafe threads in the past. Everyone on the forum is allowed to express their opinion, as long as it isn't hateful. Someone belonging to a particular group or not doesn't mean that they aren't allowed to have a voice. Please keep this in mind when discussing topics like this. This is a community of many different types of people and no one should be excluded.

Exactly what I was trying to say above. Thanks, Jeremy!

 

[seliph]

That wasn't arguing, I gave my opinion and then left it at that. I even later clarified that I didn't understand the issue and wasn't trying to debate it but rather understand the issue better. Please don't try to paint me as being insensitive

I'd suggest reading the whole thread btw!

assuming i'm reading right i'm pretty sure she's referring to how the "overthinking" and "move on" comment was incredibly patronizing and insensitive, not necessarily actually arguing.

also sidenote i don't see anyone telling others not to speak? i only see "don't speak over people who this would affect the most" (as in don't dismiss how they feel just because the issue doesn't personally affect you) and "we should take into account what people this would actually affect have to say".

oops the other replies weren't there when i typed this up LMAO

 

[Zura]

i mean, i never said don't talk, i said please don't talk over those who are directly effected by this subject. no one is being excluded. it's just hurtful to have people chime in like, "oh this isn't an issue for me! this is a waste of time why bother adios!"

Im assuming you're referring to me and Wildtown, right? While I cannot speak for them, I was only asking about the issue because I was confused about why it was an issue. Once It was explained, I quickly apologized and moved on. Nobody here or at least to my understanding is trying to talk over or mute the issue.

i'm merely explaining what tae might have meant in my opinion (i can't speak for tae), it is going to feel frustrating when you're commenting about something that would make your time on a forum more comfortable and then to hear someone who has admitted that it means nothing to them say that they don't fully see the point in that feature would feel kind of hurtful esp w comments like 'correct them and move on' clearly that's something that doesn't bother you but for so many people that can cause panic attacks and dysphoria

i apologise if i painted you in a certain way, was not intentional

I understand that now and that's why I changed my view on the idea. I am more interested in how exactly we plan to implement it and fixes for a few of the flaws it has.

Apology accepted

assuming i'm reading right i'm pretty sure she's referring to how the "overthinking" and "move on" comment was incredibly patronizing and insensitive, not necessarily actually arguing.

That's because the issue does not apply to me and I decided it wasn't my place to speak.

 

[RedTropicalPeachyFish]

it's already been established that people don't often check peoples' profiles.

How do you know it? I do check people's profiles though. Maybe I'm not in the "people" who you consider as people? lol

people generally won't blow up at you if you misgender them but that doesn't eliminate the hurt and discomfort it can cause.

asexuality has absolutely nothing to do with gender identity. i don't know a single trans person who would be uncomfortable with listing their pronouns and i've been heavily involved in the trans community for around 10 years, however if that happens to be someone's case then simply have the option to not list any.

I guess you're getting the point in my earlier post wrong. My focus there is people who are assexual, genderless or genderfluids, not the trans people. I mean? why should it be only about trans people when we need to consider discomfort of people in variety? As same as we should about those who are trans, we should about everyone else too.
Technically we can say the same about "simply have the option to not list any" to trans people as well. How you said it sounds as though we should only consider uncomfortable feeling of trans people.

also, i strongly disagree with "people use gender identities as accessories". people, especially young people still figuring themselves out, change their identity not through accessorizing it but through experimentation and realization. there is nothing wrong with changing the pronouns you wish to be called even if it's constant. experimenting with your identity is not harmful, it's more harmful to bottle up any feelings or confusion you have.

Misconception here too. The young people who I'm talking about there is not those teens who are unsure/uncomfortable with their physical gender but those who claim as trans on purpose just because they think it "cool". I personally know some who did like that. Even just around me a few. That means there must be more out there. Unfortunately it's true that there are those young people if you believe me or not. We should include them as well when we consider the affects. That's my two cents.

 

[seliph]

How do you know it? I do check people's profiles though. Maybe I'm not in the "people" who you consider as people? lol




I guess you're getting the point in my earlier post wrong. My focus there is people who are assexual, genderless or genderfluids, not the trans people. I mean… why should it be only about trans people when we need to consider discomfort of people in variety? As same as we should about those who are trans, we should about everyone else too.
Technically we can say the same about "simply have the option to not list any" to trans people as well. How you said it sounds as though we should only consider uncomfortable feeling of trans people.


Misconception here too. The young people who I'm talking about there is not those teens who are unsure/uncomfortable with their physical gender but those who claim as trans on purpose just because they think it "cool". I personally know some who did like that. Even just around me a few. That means there must be more out there. Unfortunately it's true that there are those young people if you believe me or not. We should include them as well when we consider the affects. That's my two cents.

i use "people" in a general sense, not literally everyone. by "people" i mean "there are people who exist like this".

again, asexual refers to people who do not experience sexual attraction. it has nothing to do with gender identity. genderless, genderfluid, and nonbinary people as a whole fall under the "trans" umbrella and i include them when i say "trans".

we shouldn't dismiss a big community's concerns just because there might be a few bad apples. i believe i have already voiced some solutions should the feature be abused.

 

[tae]

non-binary people are trans.

 

[Lavamaize]

I think it is currently fine, as it is in the bio options there are male, female and undisclosed. If you are really concerned you can specify in the bio area, and plus as this being online you can never tell someone's gender even make it female and mistakes are made but they usually don't escalate. Millions of people talk to each other a day without knowing their gender and or pronouns to use and every thing still is usually fine.

 

[michealsmells]

I'd hope, at the very least, that the pronouns are something you can type as well, and that they show up by our icons and collectibles. That way we don't need to stick the pronouns else where (though its not that much of an issue, normalizing a specific place for pronouns is really comforting).

Pronouns being able to be typed due to neo-pronouns like ae/aer and xe/xeir (which I'm not good with Neo-Pronouns but people have them)

 

[John Wick]

I still wouldn't know how to address each different gender.

Is this being overly politically correct?
What if someone is fluid?

How do we know what they are each day?
We can't call someome him/her, or IT.

I think it's been overthunk.

Hey, I think I just invented a word!

I just address folks using their name.

 

[seliph]

I still wouldn't know how to address each different gender.

Is this being overly politically correct?
What if someone is fluid?

How do we know what they are each day?
We can't call someome him/her, or IT.

I think it's been overthunk.

Hey, I think I just invented a word!

I just address folks using their name.

pronouns are exactly how you address someone. i personally prefer to not use any one word to describe my gender and just use "male" for convenience sake, however i prefer being addressed as he/him/his or they/them/their.

people should have the option to change their pronouns however often they desire, so that genderfluid people can change accordingly. there are also genderfluid people who prefer "they".

 

[John Wick]

pronouns are exactly how you address someone. i personally prefer to not use any one word to describe my gender and just use "male" for convenience sake, however i prefer being addressed as he/him/his or they/them/their.

people should have the option to change their pronouns however often they desire, so that genderfluid people can change accordingly. there are also genderfluid people who prefer "they".

I know.
My half sister is gay, my neighbours are a same sex married couple, and my best friend (apart from my wife) is a gay cop.

I'm just saying I refer to people by name.

 

[tae]

i'm just, i'm gonna put this here.

sexual orientation
an inherent or immutable enduring emotional, romantic or sexual attraction to other people.

gender identity
one's innermost concept of self as male, female, a blend of both or neither – how individuals perceive themselves and what they call themselves. one's gender identity can be the same or different from their sex assigned at birth.

- - - Post Merge - - -

I know.
My half sister is gay, my neighbours are a same sex married couple, and my best friend (apart from my wife) is a gay cop.

I'm just saying I refer to people by name.

that first half has nothing to do with this discussion.

 

[seliph]

I know.
My half sister is gay, my neighbours are a same sex married couple, and my best friend (apart from my wife) is a gay cop.

I'm just saying I refer to people by name.

that's very nice but sexual orientation and gender identity are two very different things. you can be trans and gay, trans and straight, etc.

referring to people by name is dandy but when you have to refer to someone with length it's hard to read and just doesn't flow well, for example:

john wick is a member of the bell tree forums and john wick has been a member since april 8th, 2017. john wick has a purple and green avatar displaying keanu reeves and john wick's usertitle is baba yaga. john wick has a lovely display of purple and green collectibles and john wick's signature says "armed with pencils".

VS:

john wick is a member of the bell tree forums and he has been a member since april 8th, 2017. he has a purple and green avatar displaying keanu reeves and his usertitle is baba yaga. john wick has a lovely display of purple and green collectibles and his signature says "armed with pencils".

 

[John Wick]

that's very nice but sexual orientation and gender identity are two very different things. you can be trans and gay, trans and straight, etc.

Trust me. I know all about it.

I understand why pronouns would be good if it showed in your post info. As checking each person's profile for their gender (identity) before replying to them in a way they doesn't offend could be tedious, so have it in post info.

 

[RedTropicalPeachyFish]

How do we know what they are each day?
We can't call someome him/her, or IT.

IT? IT?!? XD

But, yeah. Like Lava has said as well, it's a gaming community. I think it actually doesn't matter much if they're male or female or other when you interact with them. What matters more is personality imo.
I understand that the gender identity and sexual orientation are different things, but, umm.. it's hard for me to word it properly. But, not all the people are very knowledgeable or it's not that they have to be. We can try get to know each other better through interactions or conversations and it usually works fine?

 

[SheepMareep]

Hi everyone! This exploded VERY MUCH over the course of the day since I last checked so sorry I was unavailable to answer any questions or join in on the conversation.

In response to all of this uh.... problematic... talk... from non trans/nb people who are confused I added two links to the OP. One that breaks down different definitions of words in the community and another one that is a short FAQ on pronoun usage. (if anyone has other links please lmk, I want to limit the amount of uneducated discussions on here that will only set us back further.)

I am not going to argue with anyone because I... do not have the time right now but please do not come into this thread complaining that this is not important because you personally do not understand or it does not personally affect you.
It is not anyone's responsibility in this forum to educate you on trans/nb info. Google exists and is your friend. (make sure your sources are credible pleas) going off from that if anyone has questions feel free to PM me rather than being offensive to my trans and nb friends here. or if anyone else is open to RESPECTFUL questions please feel free to let people know since im cis and I am only going off of what my friends have told me and what I have learned doing my own evidence-based research in nursing school.

Trying not to come off as mean but... if the conversation escalates anymore towards being transphobic than it is now I will notify the mods to intervene.

 

[Zura]

Nobody is saying it's not a real problem or that it doesn't matter because it "doesn't effect them". People are just confused like myself and/or offering other solutions

 

[John Wick]

i'm just, i'm gonna put this here.

sexual orientation
an inherent or immutable enduring emotional, romantic or sexual attraction to other people.

gender identity
one's innermost concept of self as male, female, a blend of both or neither – how individuals perceive themselves and what they call themselves. one's gender identity can be the same or different from their sex assigned at birth.

- - - Post Merge - - -



that first half has nothing to do with this discussion.

It kinda does.
I was showing that I'm not ignorant on the subject, so need to overthink it.

 

[Antonio]

I'm totally on board with the idea. <3