What is gender?

[visibleghost]

I didn't read through the whole thread but tbh I didn't see any transphobic comments? Unless your definition of transphobic is a bit different..

i mean, saying that being trans is a mental illness or that there is no such thing as being trans (including that there are only 2 genders and that gender is the same as sex) is transphobic lol

 

[radical6]

What does it mean to be a woman? It's a state of mind? What is it? How are you supposed to feel?

I don't feel like "most" women. I like science and exploration. I don't like dolls. Am I not a woman? I don't wear heels or makeup. I'm assertive and speak my mind. Does this mean I'm not a woman?

The only thing I have in common with every single woman on this planet is our organs and body structure.

Being a woman is not a state of mind, because that implies all women feel like x. What are they even feeling like? What do they think? What do they believe makes them a "woman" if its not their biological sex?

Can I call myself black on the inside? I feel like it. It's a state of mind afterall right?

If you can call race a social construct, then so is gender. Why is this a double standard?

Sex dysphoria is different and its people wanting to transition to a different sex and have the opposite sex's genitals. Fine. Whatever. I'm not talking about them. They don't say they're a boy because they wear jeans. I have no problem with them as long as they have dysphoria.

But the people who don't tranistion and push this idea that gender is basically gender roles? Or that gender is a feeling?

What is the point in having this useless concept of gender besides pronouns? This is just tumblr nonsense.

Gender should not exist, we should not tell people born with penises they must be aggressive and strong. We should not tell people born with vaginas they are weak and stupid. We should not say they must dress this way.

We should let people freely dress and act as they want without saying they must change their sex OR conform to their sex.

Not saying people in this thread are saying that, but what I just summed up is a very popular movement in college and tumblr. lmfao.

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Oh, and I very much had a trans phase I'm sure people on here remember. If you don't have dysphoria, it's basically a teen's emo phase.

 

[visibleghost]

Ok let say instead that society or culture don't see gender anymore, there is no gender role, no gendered clothes, hair or anything like that. There are only people with different body. Would people still identifying to a gender? Probably?

My point is trying to see what defines gender for an individual.

For some people there are sex and gender, sex being genitals and chromosomes and gender being a state of mind.
So for some, there are two sexes and two or three genders. But people are asked on their own personal experience, why they see themselves belonging to a gender, so obviously if they belong to the majority, they will tend to define their gender according to their sex, if they relate to it or not.
But it's not that easy because there are also people that don't have a defined sex, they don't have the chromosomes related to their genitals or the same genital as everybody, there are people who have genital dysphoria and no gender dysphoria, or gender dysphoria and no genetial dysphoria and so on, so we can't really say that gender is related to sex for everybody.

For some people is definitely gender roles, but if society was switching gender roles tomorrow, a bunch wouldn't follow.
For some it might be the representation of masculinity or femininity but again it's something that might change tomorrow.
Society change, fashion change all the time, so you can't really defined gender just that way either.

So why/how do you relate to a gender? (If you relate to one) There is no bad answer, There is no right answer.

obviously if we removed gender it wouldnt exist ..? but i think that people would come up with other ways to put us into groups based on whatever. but yeah even if they would come up with groups based on sex or w/e it wouldnt be the same thing as gender in our society today because there are a bunch of things that made the concept of gender into what we have 2day.

i would say that gender is like culture and religion in how it is created by societies and then shaped by them. people need to feel like a group and divide us into groups for a sense of identity or a feeling of being One In Th Geoup and i think that that's why things like gender, culture, religion and other groups are formed.
im not disagreeing w u btw im just . idk .

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What does it mean to be a woman? It's a state of mind? What is it? How are you supposed to feel?

I don't feel like "most" women. I like science and exploration. I don't like dolls. Am I not a woman? I don't wear heels or makeup. I'm assertive and speak my mind. Does this mean I'm not a woman?

The only thing I have in common with every single woman on this planet is our organs and body structure.

Being a woman is not a state of mind, because that implies all women feel like x. What are they even feeling like? What do they think? What do they believe makes them a "woman" if its not their biological sex?

Can I call myself black on the inside? I feel like it. It's a state of mind afterall right?

If you can call race a social construct, then so is gender. Why is this a double standard?

Sex dysphoria is different and its people wanting to transition to a different sex and have the opposite sex's genitals. Fine. Whatever. I'm not talking about them. They don't say they're a boy because they wear jeans. I have no problem with them as long as they have dysphoria.

But the people who don't tranistion and push this idea that gender is basically gender roles? Or that gender is a feeling?

What is the point in having this useless concept of gender besides pronouns? This is just tumblr nonsense.

Gender should not exist, we should not tell people born with penises they must be aggressive and strong. We should not tell people born with vaginas they are weak and stupid. We should not say they must dress this way.

We should let people freely dress and act as they want without saying they must change their sex OR conform to their sex.

Not saying people in this thread are saying that, but what I just summed up is a very popular movement in college and tumblr. lmfao.

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Oh, and I very much had a trans phase I'm sure people on here remember. If you don't have dysphoria, it's basically a teen's emo phase.

lol Alright
gender isnt "women are this and men are that". i think in a perfect society gender would not exist (im not Anti Gender™ but i think it would have been better if the concept had never existed) and there would be no need to identify as trans, cis, man, woman or w/e but that's not how it is.
your gender isnt only sbout yourself and how you feel, act and what you do, it is also about how other people percieve you, how youre expected to act and all that stuff. if people didnt force gender on everyone i don't think there would e a problem with using words like woman to describe your body parts but with gender "woman" means more than "lol i have boobs"

it's great that you feel All Fine w your gender but not everyone feels the same way and it's inconsiderate to dismiss other people's experiences because yours isn't the same.

 

[UglyMonsterFace]

i mean, saying that being trans is a mental illness or that there is no such thing as being trans (including that there are only 2 genders and that gender is the same as sex) is transphobic lol

I didn't see any comments saying that trans people do not exist but I guess I didn't read far back enough? I don't think it's transphobic to say there are only two genders though. Someone can be born as one sex/gender but identify as another and that's perfectly fine, but it doesn't create another gender.

 

[Primarina]

Gender is a synonym for sex, and not, as some would have us believe, a separate thing from sex and a mere "social construct".

 

[visibleghost]

Gender is a synonym for sex, and not as some would have us believe, a separate thing from sex and a mere "social construct".

does gender only mean "i have these body parts" to you or do you think gender has other aspects to it like names, how youre supposed to act and dress, how youre treated etc.?
bc if not then youre wrong

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I didn't see any comments saying that trans people do not exist but I guess I didn't read far back enough? I don't think it's transphobic to say there are only two genders though. Someone can be born as one sex/gender but identify as another and that's perfectly fine, but it doesn't create another gender.

people said that sex is the same as gender

 

[Yaezakura]

Gender is a synonym for sex, and not as some would have us believe, a separate thing from sex and a mere "social construct".

Really? That's weird... let's see here... type "Define Gender" into google and we get...

gen?der
ˈjendər
noun
noun: gender; plural noun: genders
1. the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).

And it's a similar situation in literally every dictionary I can find...

 

[visibleghost]

Really? That's weird... let's see here... type "Define Gender" into google and we get...

And it's a similar situation in literally every dictionary I can find...

yh theyre using the wrong words it's like if i said that im sitting on a sofa when im sitting on a chair and i kept being like No Sofas And Chairs Are Literally The Same Thing I Know This Brcause I Cant Ever Be Wrong

 

[Primarina]

does gender only mean "i have these body parts" to you

In a certain sense, yes. However, I'm not by any means denying that there are social norms and expectations for the two sexes in every human culture, because obviously there are (division of labor, expected manner of dress/adornment, etc.), but even this I believe is not merely arbitrary and does function within certain biological influences, though certain aspects of these things are also obviously arbitrary/culture-bound (as for example the fact that in the West as recently as the early 20th century pink was "for boys" and blue was "for girls").

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Really? That's weird... let's see here... type "Define Gender" into google and we get...




And it's a similar situation in literally every dictionary I can find...

Look at a dictionary from a few decades ago and you wouldn't have this problem.

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yh theyre using the wrong words it's like if i said that im sitting on a sofa when im sitting on a chair and i kept being like No Sofas And Chairs Are Literally The Same Thing I Know This Brcause I Cant Ever Be Wrong

Except that sofa and chair were never synonyms, and gender and sex always were synonyms in every dictionary until people started re-defining gender.

 

[Yaezakura]

Look at a dictionary from a few decades ago and you wouldn't have this problem.

And why would I consult an out-dated dictionary? Dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive. I could also look at an English dictionary from 1,000 years ago, but the language has changed so much that pretty much the entire thing would be utter nonsense to me.

 

[Primarina]

Oh, look sex is still a synonym for gender. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender

 

[Aniko]

What does it mean to be a woman? It's a state of mind? What is it? How are you supposed to feel?

I don't feel like "most" women. I like science and exploration. I don't like dolls. Am I not a woman? I don't wear heels or makeup. I'm assertive and speak my mind. Does this mean I'm not a woman?

The only thing I have in common with every single woman on this planet is our organs and body structure.

Being a woman is not a state of mind, because that implies all women feel like x. What are they even feeling like? What do they think? What do they believe makes them a "woman" if its not their biological sex?

Can I call myself black on the inside? I feel like it. It's a state of mind afterall right?

If you can call race a social construct, then so is gender. Why is this a double standard?

Sex dysphoria is different and its people wanting to transition to a different sex and have the opposite sex's genitals. Fine. Whatever. I'm not talking about them. They don't say they're a boy because they wear jeans. I have no problem with them as long as they have dysphoria.

But the people who don't tranistion and push this idea that gender is basically gender roles? Or that gender is a feeling?

What is the point in having this useless concept of gender besides pronouns? This is just tumblr nonsense.

Gender should not exist, we should not tell people born with penises they must be aggressive and strong. We should not tell people born with vaginas they are weak and stupid. We should not say they must dress this way.

We should let people freely dress and act as they want without saying they must change their sex OR conform to their sex.

Not saying people in this thread are saying that, but what I just summed up is a very popular movement in college and tumblr. lmfao.

- - - Post Merge - - -

Oh, and I very much had a trans phase I'm sure people on here remember. If you don't have dysphoria, it's basically a teen's emo phase.

No not really, it's not something that concern only teen emo. People don't always need to do a transition to feel like the right gender, just being seen by the society has one is enough for them. It certainly not the same for everybody and you can't tell people what they are supposed to feel. Anyway the question is about you and not the neighbor. As you say, women are not all the same, don't think about the same things either etc.etc but what if they are born without vagina or any lady parts? They can't tell themselves women? Of course they can, because they may feel more like a lady than a dude, even if biologically we can't say what sex they are. And why they do feel that way? It might because of plenty of reasons like any... and of course they can also relate to a gender that is not female or male.

If you had a trans phase, you must have had your reasons then.

 

[Primarina]

And why would I consult an out-dated dictionary? Dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive. I could also look at an English dictionary from 1,000 years ago, but the language has changed so much that pretty much the entire thing would be utter nonsense to me.

As I said above, this one isn't outdated and it agrees with me. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender

 

[Yaezakura]

Oh, look sex is still a synonym for gender. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender

You would be correct. Some dictionaries still list them as synonyms, because a dwindling number of people use them as synonyms, while a growing segment of the population no longer does. And you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who actually deals with gender issues on a professional level who uses the two as synonyms anymore.

 

[Aniko]

obviously if we removed gender it wouldnt exist ..? but i think that people would come up with other ways to put us into groups based on whatever. but yeah even if they would come up with groups based on sex or w/e it wouldnt be the same thing as gender in our society today because there are a bunch of things that made the concept of gender into what we have 2day.

i would say that gender is like culture and religion in how it is created by societies and then shaped by them. people need to feel like a group and divide us into groups for a sense of identity or a feeling of being One In Th Geoup and i think that that's why things like gender, culture, religion and other groups are formed.
im not disagreeing w u btw im just . idk .

That's okay, you have the right to disagree, we are discussing...
I would think that gender would still exist but being express a different way. 100 years ago, a woman wearing pants, voting, cussing, playing hockey, working as a mechanical for instance would have shocked more than one but today I would think most of people find that normal.

 

[Primarina]

And you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who actually deals with gender issues on a professional level who uses the two as synonyms anymore.

Yes, because academe has been taken over by postmodernists who have redefined gender to mean something no average person means when they say the word gender. Just because they've redefined it doesn't make it so. 2+2 will never equal 5 even if the whole world believes it. Biology is a stubborn thing.

 

[Aniko]

Let the dictionary out of this people. Why do you personally feel (or not) like a certain gender. If you feel that way because of your body parts, fine. If you feel that way because your body parts plus gender role and representation these days, fine.

 

[Yaezakura]

Yes, because academe has been taken over by postmodernists who have redefined gender to mean something no average person means when they say the word gender. Just because they've redefined it doesn't make it so. 2+2 will never equal 5 even if the whole world believes it. Biology is a stubborn thing.

And there you're just flat out wrong. Biology is an incredibly flexible, often messy thing. Do you think XX and XY are what every person on the planet is? Because you'd be very, very wrong. Some people only have one sex chromosome. Some have three or more.

Also, I wasn't aware that "no average person" included so very many people. I certainly don't mean biological sex when I say "gender". Neither does... basically anyone I know younger than about 60.

 

[Dogemon]

gender is literally what is between ur legs and what kind of hormones you have and if people have trouble accepting it then wtf

You are thinking of sex, when it comes to things between your legs. You are also thinking of chromosomes not hormones, I think? Most doctors both modern and even some from long ago agree though that sex is the physical genitals of a being, while gender is what the mind perceives one's self. I should also note that if you did mean hormones, I have near male levels of testosterone in my body due to PCOS and Hashimoto's, I still do very much feel I am a female.

Idk if you guys care but, research has also started to show that there many people who are truly trans show brain waves far more similar to their believed gender rather than those of their biological sex. I find this interesting because often we can be confused 'how' someone knows they are trans and it can be difficult to put into words.

On the argument of "why cant I think I am another race then???", race seldom has any effect on your brain waves, as seen back when white scientists tried to say that African American brains were not as efficient/good as their own. Race does play into your phenotype and genotype, but more in terms of just body structure, melanin levels, and susceptibility to certain conditions/diseases, rather than much to do with your nervous system.

 

[Yaezakura]

Let the dictionary out of this people. Why do you personally feel (or not) like a certain gender. If you feel that way because of your body parts, fine. If you feel that way because your body parts plus gender role and representation these days, fine.

My apologies. It just... irks me when people insist their own view of things is some undeniable truth. Especially when they are factually, demonstrably wrong. I have a hard time not challenging such people.